27 ms·

Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

99 points by zerobias 5y ago

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
The article doesn't say whether there's a medical exception. Not everyone can get the vaccine; having that cost your job is both heartless and (probably) illegal.
- zerobias 5y ago
  I would imagine that there will be medical exceptions. I gather from the article that either get the shot or show your exception. Showing a negative test is not an option.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    I would imagine that, too. Or hope that. Expect that, even. But I would feel better if they actually said that. (Too much nonsense around Covid has made me a cynic...)
    - stevenpetryk 5y ago
      Just FYI, a cynic is someone who assumes people are selfish. A lot of people confuse it for pessimist.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        But "pessimist" is more characters to type... And, cynically, I see an amazing amount of selfishness around Covid. One side won't wear masks because it impinges their freedom, and they'd rather have their freedom than not have vulnerable people die. The other side wants to get everyone to do what they're supposed to do so that they (the ones demanding that others do what they should) can get back to living like they want, and never mind if they run over others' freedom or limitations on governmental authority or whatever. (Yes, I know, the second group is also concerned about the vulnerable. But it seems to me that at least some of the outrage comes from "Things should go the way I want them to, and it's unacceptable that the actions of others take that away from me.")
  - justwanttolearn 5y ago
    except a lot of doctors will be unwilling to give out medical exemptions because they are afraid to lose their license (even though they agree with the patient). It's happening here in Canada.
    - winocm 5y ago
      Happened to me. Doctors gaslight me when I had an allergic reaction to Macrogol, claiming it was an anxiety attack while I could visibly feel myself suffocating to death. Did anyone bother to add it to my EHR? No. Did anyone even add the allergies after I used the online portal to send a message to PAMF? No. Still in pending. I keep on trying but somehow I keep getting doctors who don’t care or shift me from specialist to specialist since I’m apparently a case nobody wants to take. I’m so tired of hearing ‘it’s safe and effective’ sometimes. Should I go and get a shot that has a good chance of a giving me a life threatening reaction that may be fatal? (Oh and before you mention epinephrine, that’s also contraindicated; I have no faith that if it happens again, I’ll even end up alive considering I was left to just kind of suffer while nearly dying in the hospital ER not just once, but TWICE in the last few years). I give up. I admit defeat.
- giantg2 5y ago
  And let's not forget that people with natural antibodies are being fired from their private sector jobs too. We seem to be focused on measuring output rather than outcomes. Other countries are giving recovered people the same status as the vaccinated since they have the antibodies. But I guess that makes too much sense...
  - whymauri 5y ago
    Natural antibodies + vaccination is basically a win-win for everyone, especially noting that the US is wasting vaccines rather than using them. You don't lose anything by getting the vaccine and there's a strong upside in resistance (around 10x more resistant than people who are simply vaccinated). Like, between a 100-200$ blood test to prove natural immunity* vs. a free vaccine, it should make sense to get the vaccine. * IMO, honor system should be de-emphasized for people claiming natural immunity. If they want to fight on this hill, they should be able to prove they have that immunity in the first place, otherwise it's simply inconsiderate.
    - francis-io 5y ago
      Why would you risk side effects (which are really low, but do exist) if you already have antibodies? Is argue you do "lose something" if you get a vaccine after having recovered from covid.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was something like 50% infected + 50% vaccinated (Roughly 75% with some kind of immunity), and SD still had a huge Delta-spike in July/August. It has been shown that the effects of vaccination + naturally getting the virus leads to the strongest immune response. The current levels of vaccination are insufficient to prevent spread (see July/August spike). With the big winter rush coming in just a few months, now is the time to prepare (just like in 2020, the virus seemed to have retreated between September and November. But come December, I expect it to come roaring back unless we up our collective immunities).
- Ajay-p 5y ago
  Indeed, how might conflict with the Americans with Disability Act?
- gizmo686 5y ago
  Federal agencies are still subject to the ADA, which Biden cannot waive without Congress. While the ADA appears to allow for vaccine requirements in general, it still requires reasonable accommodations for those who cannot get a vaccine.
francis-io 5y ago
I feel awful for the people with religious or medical reasons they can't be vaccinated. I can't imagen having to potentially pick between a truly held religious belief and proving for a family.
- ZetaZero 5y ago
  From NYT: "Ms. Psaki said that there would be some disability and religious exemptions for some"
  - totony 5y ago
    Crazy to me religion and normal beliefs are not put in the same bucket. Why would a religious belief hold more weight than a normal belief?
    - ZetaZero 5y ago
      1st Amendment still has a little power
- plandis 5y ago
  The article didn’t really mention exemptions, are you assuming no exemptions for medical / religious reasons or are you saying this from a clearer source?
- aaroninsf 5y ago
  "Truly held" false belief is still false, and no justification for undermining public health, or being a parasite on other's contributions to it. As the MAGA fascist Q-cultists are so fond of chanting, f--k their feelings.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Yeah! After we force inject everyone then we can round up the fat people next and get rid of the number 1 and 2 killers of humans and bring our healthcare costs down. /s Totally not a fascist stance.
nostromo 5y ago
> but vaccine hesitancy — particularly among white Republicans This sort of quip really makes me distrust NPR. White people are more vaccinated than blacks or Latinos, but the journalist couldn't help but try to throw in a dunk on their favorite bogeyman. https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-population-that-has-received-a-covid-19-vaccine-by-race-ethnicity/ https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-p...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- benbayard 5y ago
  As a percent, you may be correct (your chart does not show a breakdown by party). In sheer volume, you're definitely incorrect, however.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mfringel 5y ago
  You cited a page that doesn't split it out by White Republicans or White Democrats, which is a distinction that you quoted in your comment. Wear protection when grinding axes.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  When Joe Rogan said he had taken ivermectin as part of his Covid treatment, NPR put out a tweet saying he took "a deworming drug for cows that the FDA warns people should not ingest." It's a dishonest propaganda outfit funded by money from billionaire foundations.
- Darmody 5y ago
  The agenda won't push itself.
- 5y ago
unchocked 5y ago
Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.
- core-utility 5y ago
  And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.
  - 1270018080 5y ago
    "Everything is health based if you want it to be." What is the point of this comment? He is mandating a vaccine during a pandemic.
  - landryraccoon 5y ago
    This argument is so tired. It applies to almost every single service provided by any government anywhere. New traffic regulations? Everyone needs transportation to get somewhere. Controlling transport controls everything. This is a road to tyranny, etc, etc.. New worker's regulations? Everyone needs a job in our economy! Controlling wages controls people's lives! This is authoritarianism, etc... New taxes? Everything you need to survive could be taxed! When does it end?? etc, etc.. The most minor policy change anywhere runs into this utterly inane argument. Updated food standards? Building codes? Public hearing to add a stop sign? When will this government overreach end??? It's tired, it's pointless, it's been said millions of times by the same libertarian/anarchists for a century. It adds nothing new to the conversation.
  - question000 5y ago
    I mean he answered these questions. The line is drawn here.
  - wk_end 5y ago
    Well, I'm not exactly sure what the line is. In the US, as with all things related to government power, it's decided jointly through the work of the three branches of government and the factors that influence them - democratic appeal, the constitution, jurisprudence, and so on. At any rate, "vaccination for a highly infectious, potentially deadly virus" indisputably counts as "health". Everything might be health-based if you want it to be (maybe), but the nature of the American system hopefully and usually minimizes room for abuse of that power - and certainly there's no appearance of abuse of that power here, now.
woodpanel 5y ago
Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  If the only difference between political opinion is whether you get vaccinated or not, you're already a monoculture. The people being "cleansed" here are the crazies (of any political flavour).
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    The majority of black American population?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ZetaZero 5y ago
  Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
  - quotemstr 5y ago
    The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely good for them health-wise on an individual basis. The same reasoning that justifies this mandate would justify a state-imposed limit on daily calorie consumption, a state-imposed exercise requirement, and all sorts of other coercive measures that, while good for people's health, are flagrant violations of principles of bodily autonomy and informed consent for medical treatment. This isn't about the vaccine and it's not even about COVID. This is about one political tribe using the state to hurt the other political tribe.
SSilver2k2 5y ago
Good.
michaelt 5y ago
As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Well, I've got my answer.
- rajin444 5y ago
  > What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Somebody who has already had covid. They've already taken on risk - why expose themselves to more? Your argument of people acting rational breaks down in a lot of cases. Plenty of people have self destructive behaviors (many with externalities that affect others) that we are ok with.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    What risk? You literally expose yourself to more risk driving to work than with getting any vaccine.
  - fanf2 5y ago
    If you've had COVID, a vaccine can help with Long COVID symptoms, and it can reduce the risk of reinfection, so it's still better to be vaccinated than to catch COVID a second time.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      The vaccine reportedly can also trigger a more severe immune response in people who already have naturally-acquired antibodies. Try to find good statistics on the rates and severity of adverse reactions for people who have already have COVID. I've had very little success.
      - herbst 5y ago
        This. And generally the possibility of more severe immune responses after vaxing. (Like with dengue for example) It is obvious these are a problem, and it's obvious we do not talk a out that right now. Saying the vaccine is a perfect solution that will solve all our issues is just dellusional
gregwebs 5y ago
IMHO the effective thing to do is to focus all our efforts on vaccinating 100% of those that will end up in the ICU (the elderly and those with co-morbidities). These kinds of vaccine mandates get some of those at the greatest risk vaccinated but also ends up being a giant distraction in the US and makes it harder for the rest of the world to get the vaccines that they need as well. I think the blanket mandate approach is used because it is a lot easier for the leaders at the top to make these proclamations then to organize an outreach approach that actually reaches those most vulnerable.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a particularly vulnerable person is better off surrounded by vaccinated people even if they themselves are unvaccinated than if they are vaccinated but surrounded by unvaccinated people. This is a good and long overdue policy that should be widely replicated wherever vaccine supply permits.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria. As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      No, the unvaccinated population, where the virus keeps being replicated, breeds variants of all kinds; the vaccinated population applies selection pressure that favors vaccine resistance. If the entire population is vaccinated variants would not emerge at all because the virus would not spread from person to person (and would eventually disappear from the population).
literallyaduck 5y ago
Isn't this an unnecessary medical procedure for people who have already recovered?
- donutdan4114 5y ago
  CDC says vaccines are still better: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ This paper says natural immunity better: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... Unfortunately the science is evolving so fast and the variants are coming so fast, it's impossible to keep up!
  - twstdsistrs84 5y ago
    The CDC has become a political body that parrots government propaganda. It doesn't take anyone long to find countless examples of the CDC making bold claims which turned out to be clearly wrong. Their stance on natural immunity flies in the face of commonsense and is just one more example of their political nature.
  - justwanttolearn 5y ago
    because the science is evolving so we shouldn't have to mandate those who already have natural immunity. Will coercing someone who has natural immunity to take a shot or lose their job be truly that much more beneficial to justify? I don't think so and it's ethically wrong.
    - oliwarner 5y ago
      My antibody test was more painful than the pair of injections. Vaccination doesn't harm people with existing antibodies (they just rebuff it faster) and going through the process serves as a good booster.
      - 5y ago
donutdan4114 5y ago
Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys
- thatswrong0 5y ago
  What about the long term safety data on catching / surviving COVID itself? Long COVID seems to affect between 10-30% of people who catch COVID. Why do I never hear anti-vaxxers being concerned about that?
  - peteradio 5y ago
    Because its mostly undefined what long-covid even means. In the worst cases it means organ damage, but Ill bet you anything those are not anywhere near 10-30% of cases. More likely people randomly feel like shit for a while sometimes, like every other year in my adult life.
    - thatswrong0 5y ago
      Which is exactly my point - we don't know what or how prevalent the long term effects of COVID are.
      - peteradio 5y ago
        Agreed. But I guess I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear".
        instaclay 5y ago
        > I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear". I'm not sure what this means. So you got the vaccine then because you're not afraid of it, right? Or you didn't get the vaccine because you're not afraid of COVID-19? I am also not afraid really of COVID-19 but I got the vax because I'm also not afraid of that. Mostly I'm afraid I'd get it and then pass it to others where that could have been avoided by me just not being lazy for a second. I don't feel like an odd-man though.
swayvil 5y ago
A new vaccine. Rushed to market. Pushed upon us before it was even approved. Then rushed to approval. That's strange. I need to get this vaccine, not to protect myself, but to protect you. That's strange. That's 2 strange things in a row. When you see 2 strange things in a row like that, it smells fishy.
- timeon 5y ago
  > I need to get this vaccine, not to protect myself, but to protect you. > That's strange. Can you elaborate? Not sure I get it.
  - TobTobXX 5y ago
    How does my vaccination safe you (given you'd be my neighbor)? I mean it is still quite possible that I get infected by the CoV and that would mean that I'd transmit it, even though I might not have / have mild symptoms.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  It's strange if you don't know anything about the subject. For the several billion people vaccinated all over the world there's nothing strange.
  - cortexio 5y ago
    oof, i got some north korea vibes from your comment. They dont find it strange when there are dead people in the streets. They perceive the most horrible things as normal, because they have never known what "not normal" is. Anyway, it has nothing to do with your comment, but it made me think of that.
  - lolsal 5y ago
    Which point are you replying to? Are you objecting that the OP's opinion about those two points being strange is somehow wrong or misinformed?
sys_64738 5y ago
You just need to raise the bar to see the difference between those who will/won't and where their will to resist expires. For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job.
- quotemstr 5y ago
  > For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job. Maybe so, but when you use naked force to make people do things, you make an enemy for life. Anyone forced to choose between his bodily integrity and feeding his family will never, ever, not a million years, forgive you, even, and he will hate you for the rest of your days.
  - sys_64738 5y ago
    I don’t think anybody cares whether they don’t forgive whoever. If your ain’t vaccinated then you are a problem that needs to be motivated to do the right thing.
phreezerburn 5y ago
Socialists will fill Christian slots in the deep state.
mzs 5y ago
Executive Order: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/09/09/executive-order-on-requiring-coronavirus-disease-2019-vaccination-for-federal-employees/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... Whitehouse briefing: https://youtu.be/RSFRFVIJqC4 https://youtu.be/RSFRFVIJqC4 COVID plan: https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
SamReidHughes 5y ago
Trump derangement syndrome has been cleanly replaced with Covid derangement syndrome.
bassman9000 5y ago
Except, it seems, USPS 600k+ employees https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/ https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-man... thus proving this is not about science, but political, e.g. to stop talking about the Afghan fiasco.
- noahjk 5y ago
  Not sure if you read the article you linked to. > The USPS exemption was initially believed to allow postal workers to duck the private-sector mandate, too. But nearly four hours after that understanding was reported, the White House issued a clarification saying that postal workers will have a choice between getting vaccinated and getting tested once a week, just like workers at large companies. “USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said. He added: “That said, USPS is strongly encouraged to comply. Also, [the Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration] will cover USPS through the [emergency temporary standards], meaning that postal workers will be subject to the vaccination or testing policy announced today”
tootahe45 5y ago
Got vaccinated but it looks like long covid was unavoidable all along thanks to my generation's willingness embrace and celebrate big govt.
walterbell 5y ago
Related discussion (can the comments be merged into this thread?): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28474997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28474997
tomohawk 5y ago
So, a CDC study found 78% of people hospitalized for covid were obese or overweight. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl... What's to stop the president from issuing another OSHA rule to fire people who are overweight and not actively addressing this risk factor?
- helen___keller 5y ago
  Politics, obviously. The checks on power for the president are politics (reelection), legality / constitutionality via court system, and removal from office via impeachment trial.
tomohawk 5y ago
We've had tens of thousands of people pouring across our southern border for months illegally. Where is the mandate to test / vaccinate these people? Legal travelers and migrants are required to comply with covid restrictions, but these law breakers are not. And then, on top of it, they are provided transportation all over the country and dropped off in jurisdictions without any coordination or notification. How is this mandate supposed to help when the president and his people have been actively undermining the health and safety of this country for months, and have no plan to stop?
kaminar 5y ago
Openvaers.com

99 points by zerobias 5y ago

The article doesn't say whether there's a medical exception. Not everyone can get the vaccine; having that cost your job is both heartless and (probably) illegal.

zerobias 5y ago
I would imagine that there will be medical exceptions. I gather from the article that either get the shot or show your exception. Showing a negative test is not an option.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  I would imagine that, too. Or hope that. Expect that, even. But I would feel better if they actually said that. (Too much nonsense around Covid has made me a cynic...)
  - stevenpetryk 5y ago
    Just FYI, a cynic is someone who assumes people are selfish. A lot of people confuse it for pessimist.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      But "pessimist" is more characters to type... And, cynically, I see an amazing amount of selfishness around Covid. One side won't wear masks because it impinges their freedom, and they'd rather have their freedom than not have vulnerable people die. The other side wants to get everyone to do what they're supposed to do so that they (the ones demanding that others do what they should) can get back to living like they want, and never mind if they run over others' freedom or limitations on governmental authority or whatever. (Yes, I know, the second group is also concerned about the vulnerable. But it seems to me that at least some of the outrage comes from "Things should go the way I want them to, and it's unacceptable that the actions of others take that away from me.")
- justwanttolearn 5y ago
  except a lot of doctors will be unwilling to give out medical exemptions because they are afraid to lose their license (even though they agree with the patient). It's happening here in Canada.
  - winocm 5y ago
    Happened to me. Doctors gaslight me when I had an allergic reaction to Macrogol, claiming it was an anxiety attack while I could visibly feel myself suffocating to death. Did anyone bother to add it to my EHR? No. Did anyone even add the allergies after I used the online portal to send a message to PAMF? No. Still in pending. I keep on trying but somehow I keep getting doctors who don’t care or shift me from specialist to specialist since I’m apparently a case nobody wants to take. I’m so tired of hearing ‘it’s safe and effective’ sometimes. Should I go and get a shot that has a good chance of a giving me a life threatening reaction that may be fatal? (Oh and before you mention epinephrine, that’s also contraindicated; I have no faith that if it happens again, I’ll even end up alive considering I was left to just kind of suffer while nearly dying in the hospital ER not just once, but TWICE in the last few years). I give up. I admit defeat.
giantg2 5y ago
And let's not forget that people with natural antibodies are being fired from their private sector jobs too. We seem to be focused on measuring output rather than outcomes. Other countries are giving recovered people the same status as the vaccinated since they have the antibodies. But I guess that makes too much sense...
- whymauri 5y ago
  Natural antibodies + vaccination is basically a win-win for everyone, especially noting that the US is wasting vaccines rather than using them. You don't lose anything by getting the vaccine and there's a strong upside in resistance (around 10x more resistant than people who are simply vaccinated). Like, between a 100-200$ blood test to prove natural immunity* vs. a free vaccine, it should make sense to get the vaccine. * IMO, honor system should be de-emphasized for people claiming natural immunity. If they want to fight on this hill, they should be able to prove they have that immunity in the first place, otherwise it's simply inconsiderate.
  - francis-io 5y ago
    Why would you risk side effects (which are really low, but do exist) if you already have antibodies? Is argue you do "lose something" if you get a vaccine after having recovered from covid.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was something like 50% infected + 50% vaccinated (Roughly 75% with some kind of immunity), and SD still had a huge Delta-spike in July/August. It has been shown that the effects of vaccination + naturally getting the virus leads to the strongest immune response. The current levels of vaccination are insufficient to prevent spread (see July/August spike). With the big winter rush coming in just a few months, now is the time to prepare (just like in 2020, the virus seemed to have retreated between September and November. But come December, I expect it to come roaring back unless we up our collective immunities).
Ajay-p 5y ago
Indeed, how might conflict with the Americans with Disability Act?
gizmo686 5y ago
Federal agencies are still subject to the ADA, which Biden cannot waive without Congress. While the ADA appears to allow for vaccine requirements in general, it still requires reasonable accommodations for those who cannot get a vaccine.

francis-io 5y ago

I feel awful for the people with religious or medical reasons they can't be vaccinated. I can't imagen having to potentially pick between a truly held religious belief and proving for a family.

ZetaZero 5y ago
From NYT: "Ms. Psaki said that there would be some disability and religious exemptions for some"
- totony 5y ago
  Crazy to me religion and normal beliefs are not put in the same bucket. Why would a religious belief hold more weight than a normal belief?
  - ZetaZero 5y ago
    1st Amendment still has a little power
plandis 5y ago
The article didn’t really mention exemptions, are you assuming no exemptions for medical / religious reasons or are you saying this from a clearer source?
aaroninsf 5y ago
"Truly held" false belief is still false, and no justification for undermining public health, or being a parasite on other's contributions to it. As the MAGA fascist Q-cultists are so fond of chanting, f--k their feelings.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  Yeah! After we force inject everyone then we can round up the fat people next and get rid of the number 1 and 2 killers of humans and bring our healthcare costs down. /s Totally not a fascist stance.

nostromo 5y ago

> but vaccine hesitancy — particularly among white Republicans This sort of quip really makes me distrust NPR. White people are more vaccinated than blacks or Latinos, but the journalist couldn't help but try to throw in a dunk on their favorite bogeyman. https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-population-that-has-received-a-covid-19-vaccine-by-race-ethnicity/ https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-p...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
benbayard 5y ago
As a percent, you may be correct (your chart does not show a breakdown by party). In sheer volume, you're definitely incorrect, however.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mfringel 5y ago
You cited a page that doesn't split it out by White Republicans or White Democrats, which is a distinction that you quoted in your comment. Wear protection when grinding axes.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
When Joe Rogan said he had taken ivermectin as part of his Covid treatment, NPR put out a tweet saying he took "a deworming drug for cows that the FDA warns people should not ingest." It's a dishonest propaganda outfit funded by money from billionaire foundations.
Darmody 5y ago
The agenda won't push itself.
5y ago

unchocked 5y ago

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

core-utility 5y ago
And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.
- 1270018080 5y ago
  "Everything is health based if you want it to be." What is the point of this comment? He is mandating a vaccine during a pandemic.
- landryraccoon 5y ago
  This argument is so tired. It applies to almost every single service provided by any government anywhere. New traffic regulations? Everyone needs transportation to get somewhere. Controlling transport controls everything. This is a road to tyranny, etc, etc.. New worker's regulations? Everyone needs a job in our economy! Controlling wages controls people's lives! This is authoritarianism, etc... New taxes? Everything you need to survive could be taxed! When does it end?? etc, etc.. The most minor policy change anywhere runs into this utterly inane argument. Updated food standards? Building codes? Public hearing to add a stop sign? When will this government overreach end??? It's tired, it's pointless, it's been said millions of times by the same libertarian/anarchists for a century. It adds nothing new to the conversation.
- question000 5y ago
  I mean he answered these questions. The line is drawn here.
- wk_end 5y ago
  Well, I'm not exactly sure what the line is. In the US, as with all things related to government power, it's decided jointly through the work of the three branches of government and the factors that influence them - democratic appeal, the constitution, jurisprudence, and so on. At any rate, "vaccination for a highly infectious, potentially deadly virus" indisputably counts as "health". Everything might be health-based if you want it to be (maybe), but the nature of the American system hopefully and usually minimizes room for abuse of that power - and certainly there's no appearance of abuse of that power here, now.

woodpanel 5y ago

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

LatteLazy 5y ago
If the only difference between political opinion is whether you get vaccinated or not, you're already a monoculture. The people being "cleansed" here are the crazies (of any political flavour).
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  The majority of black American population?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ZetaZero 5y ago
Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
- quotemstr 5y ago
  The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely good for them health-wise on an individual basis. The same reasoning that justifies this mandate would justify a state-imposed limit on daily calorie consumption, a state-imposed exercise requirement, and all sorts of other coercive measures that, while good for people's health, are flagrant violations of principles of bodily autonomy and informed consent for medical treatment. This isn't about the vaccine and it's not even about COVID. This is about one political tribe using the state to hurt the other political tribe.

SSilver2k2 5y ago

Good.

michaelt 5y ago

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Well, I've got my answer.

rajin444 5y ago
> What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Somebody who has already had covid. They've already taken on risk - why expose themselves to more? Your argument of people acting rational breaks down in a lot of cases. Plenty of people have self destructive behaviors (many with externalities that affect others) that we are ok with.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  What risk? You literally expose yourself to more risk driving to work than with getting any vaccine.
- fanf2 5y ago
  If you've had COVID, a vaccine can help with Long COVID symptoms, and it can reduce the risk of reinfection, so it's still better to be vaccinated than to catch COVID a second time.
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    The vaccine reportedly can also trigger a more severe immune response in people who already have naturally-acquired antibodies. Try to find good statistics on the rates and severity of adverse reactions for people who have already have COVID. I've had very little success.
    - herbst 5y ago
      This. And generally the possibility of more severe immune responses after vaxing. (Like with dengue for example) It is obvious these are a problem, and it's obvious we do not talk a out that right now. Saying the vaccine is a perfect solution that will solve all our issues is just dellusional

gregwebs 5y ago

IMHO the effective thing to do is to focus all our efforts on vaccinating 100% of those that will end up in the ICU (the elderly and those with co-morbidities). These kinds of vaccine mandates get some of those at the greatest risk vaccinated but also ends up being a giant distraction in the US and makes it harder for the rest of the world to get the vaccines that they need as well. I think the blanket mandate approach is used because it is a lot easier for the leaders at the top to make these proclamations then to organize an outreach approach that actually reaches those most vulnerable.

betterunix2 5y ago
That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a particularly vulnerable person is better off surrounded by vaccinated people even if they themselves are unvaccinated than if they are vaccinated but surrounded by unvaccinated people. This is a good and long overdue policy that should be widely replicated wherever vaccine supply permits.
- angelzen 5y ago
  It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria. As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    No, the unvaccinated population, where the virus keeps being replicated, breeds variants of all kinds; the vaccinated population applies selection pressure that favors vaccine resistance. If the entire population is vaccinated variants would not emerge at all because the virus would not spread from person to person (and would eventually disappear from the population).

literallyaduck 5y ago

Isn't this an unnecessary medical procedure for people who have already recovered?

donutdan4114 5y ago
CDC says vaccines are still better: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ This paper says natural immunity better: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... Unfortunately the science is evolving so fast and the variants are coming so fast, it's impossible to keep up!
- twstdsistrs84 5y ago
  The CDC has become a political body that parrots government propaganda. It doesn't take anyone long to find countless examples of the CDC making bold claims which turned out to be clearly wrong. Their stance on natural immunity flies in the face of commonsense and is just one more example of their political nature.
- justwanttolearn 5y ago
  because the science is evolving so we shouldn't have to mandate those who already have natural immunity. Will coercing someone who has natural immunity to take a shot or lose their job be truly that much more beneficial to justify? I don't think so and it's ethically wrong.
  - oliwarner 5y ago
    My antibody test was more painful than the pair of injections. Vaccination doesn't harm people with existing antibodies (they just rebuff it faster) and going through the process serves as a good booster.
    - 5y ago

donutdan4114 5y ago

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

thatswrong0 5y ago
What about the long term safety data on catching / surviving COVID itself? Long COVID seems to affect between 10-30% of people who catch COVID. Why do I never hear anti-vaxxers being concerned about that?
- peteradio 5y ago
  Because its mostly undefined what long-covid even means. In the worst cases it means organ damage, but Ill bet you anything those are not anywhere near 10-30% of cases. More likely people randomly feel like shit for a while sometimes, like every other year in my adult life.
  - thatswrong0 5y ago
    Which is exactly my point - we don't know what or how prevalent the long term effects of COVID are.
    - peteradio 5y ago
      Agreed. But I guess I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear".
      - instaclay 5y ago
        > I'm the odd-man out to err on the side of "not-fear". I'm not sure what this means. So you got the vaccine then because you're not afraid of it, right? Or you didn't get the vaccine because you're not afraid of COVID-19? I am also not afraid really of COVID-19 but I got the vax because I'm also not afraid of that. Mostly I'm afraid I'd get it and then pass it to others where that could have been avoided by me just not being lazy for a second. I don't feel like an odd-man though.

swayvil 5y ago

A new vaccine. Rushed to market. Pushed upon us before it was even approved. Then rushed to approval. That's strange. I need to get this vaccine, not to protect myself, but to protect you. That's strange. That's 2 strange things in a row. When you see 2 strange things in a row like that, it smells fishy.

timeon 5y ago
> I need to get this vaccine, not to protect myself, but to protect you. > That's strange. Can you elaborate? Not sure I get it.
- TobTobXX 5y ago
  How does my vaccination safe you (given you'd be my neighbor)? I mean it is still quite possible that I get infected by the CoV and that would mean that I'd transmit it, even though I might not have / have mild symptoms.
Daishiman 5y ago
It's strange if you don't know anything about the subject. For the several billion people vaccinated all over the world there's nothing strange.
- cortexio 5y ago
  oof, i got some north korea vibes from your comment. They dont find it strange when there are dead people in the streets. They perceive the most horrible things as normal, because they have never known what "not normal" is. Anyway, it has nothing to do with your comment, but it made me think of that.
- lolsal 5y ago
  Which point are you replying to? Are you objecting that the OP's opinion about those two points being strange is somehow wrong or misinformed?

sys_64738 5y ago

You just need to raise the bar to see the difference between those who will/won't and where their will to resist expires. For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job.

quotemstr 5y ago
> For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job. Maybe so, but when you use naked force to make people do things, you make an enemy for life. Anyone forced to choose between his bodily integrity and feeding his family will never, ever, not a million years, forgive you, even, and he will hate you for the rest of your days.
- sys_64738 5y ago
  I don’t think anybody cares whether they don’t forgive whoever. If your ain’t vaccinated then you are a problem that needs to be motivated to do the right thing.

phreezerburn 5y ago

Socialists will fill Christian slots in the deep state.

mzs 5y ago

Executive Order: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/09/09/executive-order-on-requiring-coronavirus-disease-2019-vaccination-for-federal-employees/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... Whitehouse briefing: https://youtu.be/RSFRFVIJqC4 https://youtu.be/RSFRFVIJqC4 COVID plan: https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/

SamReidHughes 5y ago

Trump derangement syndrome has been cleanly replaced with Covid derangement syndrome.

bassman9000 5y ago

Except, it seems, USPS 600k+ employees https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/ https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-man... thus proving this is not about science, but political, e.g. to stop talking about the Afghan fiasco.

noahjk 5y ago
Not sure if you read the article you linked to. > The USPS exemption was initially believed to allow postal workers to duck the private-sector mandate, too. But nearly four hours after that understanding was reported, the White House issued a clarification saying that postal workers will have a choice between getting vaccinated and getting tested once a week, just like workers at large companies. “USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said. He added: “That said, USPS is strongly encouraged to comply. Also, [the Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration] will cover USPS through the [emergency temporary standards], meaning that postal workers will be subject to the vaccination or testing policy announced today”

tootahe45 5y ago

Got vaccinated but it looks like long covid was unavoidable all along thanks to my generation's willingness embrace and celebrate big govt.

walterbell 5y ago

Related discussion (can the comments be merged into this thread?): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28474997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28474997

tomohawk 5y ago

So, a CDC study found 78% of people hospitalized for covid were obese or overweight. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl... What's to stop the president from issuing another OSHA rule to fire people who are overweight and not actively addressing this risk factor?

helen___keller 5y ago
Politics, obviously. The checks on power for the president are politics (reelection), legality / constitutionality via court system, and removal from office via impeachment trial.

tomohawk 5y ago

We've had tens of thousands of people pouring across our southern border for months illegally. Where is the mandate to test / vaccinate these people? Legal travelers and migrants are required to comply with covid restrictions, but these law breakers are not. And then, on top of it, they are provided transportation all over the country and dropped off in jurisdictions without any coordination or notification. How is this mandate supposed to help when the president and his people have been actively undermining the health and safety of this country for months, and have no plan to stop?

kaminar 5y ago

Openvaers.com