58 ms·

System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

553 points by sampling 5y ago

pyrophane 5y ago
If it weren't for that damn 16:9 display this would be a good machine for me.
Guest42 5y ago
Would ordering one of these with 32gb of ram lead to a significant decrease in battery performance?
- neogodless 5y ago
  Looks like the increase from 8GB to 32GB is going from ~3W to 12W of power consumption. The CPU likely consumes 30-45W depending on configuration. So it's not trivial, all things considered.
  - Synaesthesia 5y ago
    CPUS or SOCs these days can achieve quite low power states when in idle, like aingle digit watts. Where do you get the 12w from?
    - Guest42 5y ago
      Thanks for followup, I was curious if the ram was allocated in blocks if sections could go unused. Right now I have 16gb and it's been great and I generally don't put much pressure on it (except for some occasional Android Studio virtualizing). However, it seems as though software resource usage has a tendency to creep up over time so it seemed like more RAM would be a safe option. I also tend to use the computer more lightly when it's unplugged. I don't know much about hardware so all input is appreciated.
    - neogodless 5y ago
      Just a preliminary web search. Here's one example: https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-much-power-does-memory-use https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-much... > As a rule of thumb, however, you want to allocate around 3 watts of power for every 8GB of DDR3 or DDR4 memory. High-performance memory such as Ballistix® parts can draw more power, especially if you overclock the voltage beyond XMP settings. Similar numbers here for slower DDR4-2133. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-haswell-e-cpu,3918-13.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-has...
  - kcb 5y ago
    Wouldn't that only really apply while doing intensive memory accessing. Something that you would probably only be doing a very small percentage of time.
    - fnord77 5y ago
      no - simply refreshing memory state costs power. The DRAM memory refresh cycle happens about every 60ms. In the background, memory cells are constantly read and rewritten. Power consumption adds up pretty quickly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh
      - kcb 5y ago
        Sure but that is not peak power consumption. The charts I'm seeing for DRAM power consumption are based on the gbps.
m0zg 5y ago
1080p in 2021, targeting a "tech" audience? Good luck with that.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Most people who do tech work in the sense of using a computer for most part of their days such as software devs (I hope) use external keyboards and screens and mice anyway, 99% of the time. AC adapter plugged in. With the WFH trend, this will be a growing trend. I unplug the AC adapter and monitor to go over to someone's desk or hold a presentation perhaps a few times a month at most. I would not want to write code a whole day on even the best laptop keyboard and the most crispy 4K laptop screen. There is a surprising lack of choice for laptops targeting this mode of use though. For example the $3k Dell precision I have now doesn't like being used plugged in for extended periods. They put a category of battery in them that swells when heated. So if you, like me, leave it on for say a year at your desk (This happened during the pandemic) - it expands and the keyboard and trackpad stops working. When you go for a "workstation" class laptop, the manufacturers have crammed so much perf into an impossibly small package, that it's screaming loud and glowing hot. Just make it twice as thick with half the battery size and I'll buy it.
deleted 5y ago
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winter_blue 5y ago
The price is a bit too high (as always with System76). Last year, for the same price ($1,199) on sale, I bought a ASUS Zephyrus G14 with a Ryzen 4900HS and RTX 2060. Right now, you get it (for a bit more) with a 5900HS and RTX 3060. Both the 5900HS and the 4900HS will beat the low-wattage 5700U in performance handily. The G14 has a 76 Wh, so despite the “higher”-power (35 Watt) CPU, it’ll still get a LOT of battery life.
- teekert 5y ago
  System76 is nice, in this podcast the CEO is interviewed: [0]. He is dedicated to transparency, open source and privacy. They’re worth some extra money to me. Although I’m still waiting for their custom designed, all aluminium top of the line laptop :) [0]: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-unplugged/id687598126?i=1000532340179 https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-unplugged/id6875...
  - cassepipe 5y ago
    Is this custom design all-aluminum design on their road map? I'd buy it, I'd order it next year and pay right now even. The only thing preventing from buying one of their laptop is I am wary of all plastic laptops that break apart after five years although they are working perfectly. Basically I just want a MacBook that runs Linux perfectly.
    - teekert 5y ago
      They been planning it for years [0]. I guess experiences with their high end keyboard [1] will teach them valuable lessons, the podcast I posted is mainly about that keyboard and the manufacturing challenges. I indeed also hope for a MBP equivalent (non-clevo) System76 laptop. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/11/20/system76-will-start-designing-and-building-its-own-linux-laptops-beginning-january-2020/#34db367b3e16 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/11/20/syste... [1]: https://system76.com/accessories/launch https://system76.com/accessories/launch
Rd6n6 5y ago
What are system76 keyboards and trackpads like? I wish I could touch one before having to decide whether to buy
- hellcow 5y ago
  I bought a system76 years ago wanting to support their open source work. Maybe it's changed since (?), but mine had a Clevo shell which meant it had a bad keyboard and a terrible trackpad, with a cheap plastic feel and lots of flex. It's the first laptop I ever replaced within a month... The keyboard was later recalled, so I swapped it out with a new one they sent me which wasn't cut to the correct dimensions and never fit (bubbling up in the center and leaving a gap around the keyboard for things to fall into).
  - istingray 5y ago
    Their newer stuff may be better. I just ordered a brand new Lemur Pro 14". Keyboard and trackpad aren't anything to brag about but seem fine.
- trashface 5y ago
  I have an oryp5 (2019). The keyboard is ok. The numeric pad is annoying though, as others have commented. I definitely prefer my old mac which didn't have one. The touchpad is awful. Way too sensitive to palm touches, even in windows - so it isn't just a linux driver issue. This might be related to the fact that its off center but I think its just lousy hardware. In linux I've tweaked both the touchpad area (reduced) and threshold settings but its still barely usable and I palm-touch constantly unless I hold my hand at an awkward angle. Maybe this pangolin is better but I looked at the overhead picture of the keyboard and it looks almost identical to my oryp5. The touchpad may be upgraded hardware, so I don't know. I love what system 76 is doing, PopOS is great, but I really wish they'd get off these Clevo laptops. The hardware just isn't very good, IMO.
  - slategruen 5y ago
    > The touchpad is awful Have you tried it with Wayland?
cbHXBY1D 5y ago
I would love this in the Lemur Pro. Not sure where coreboot is for all AMD chipsets.
- jhoho 5y ago
  The work is ongoing, it might take until the next release: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot-4.14-Released https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot...
eecc 5y ago
Ouch: * 1080p * beancouter optimized keyboard why?
chludek 5y ago
Pretty much no details about the display. What kind of panel is this? What's the maximum brightness? How fast is the refresh rate? How large is the color gamut?
protomyth 5y ago
I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing on these larger portables.
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other characters.
    - baron_harkonnen 5y ago
      I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers. I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide.
      - wott 5y ago
        > I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide. Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch-type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main part of a keyboard). I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could get used to it).
lanevorockz 5y ago
Looks great
frant-hartm 5y ago
I don't understand why they don't offer 128 GB version.
- detaro 5y ago
  Quite simple: The CPU doesn't support that.
jagger27 5y ago
I say it every time every time one of these threads pop up and I’ll say it again here: if it’s not 16:10 or 3:2 I’m simply not interested. I buy devices like this for productivity. I don't care about black bars when watching videos because I don't watch videos on it. What I absolutely care about is the extra inch of text in my terminal or text editor. I didn't think this was a controversial opinion.
- bo1024 5y ago
  Framework might be for you! I think it's 3:2.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    Indeed it's nearly perfect, but I would only buy it with a considerably better processor. Both Intel and AMD have incredible stuff lined up for the next few years in that space. For now though, since I have to keep a Mac around for work, I'll probably stick with my M1 MacBook Air for my portable needs and keep using Linux on my desktop.
    - freedomben 5y ago
      a great thing about the framework though is the processor is upgradeable! So once the new stuff comes out ...
      - jagger27 5y ago
        Yes, if I haven’t just bought this MacBook I’d probably consider it.
      - qudat 5y ago
        You're still forced into buying an intel chip now. I'm holding out for an AMD with frame.work before purchasing. Hopefully they will come out with one before I purchase a M1 macbook air.
        5y ago
jandrese 5y ago
The specs page is a bit vague in places. Graphics AMD Radeon™ Graphics Storage 1 x M.2 SSD(SATA or PCIe NVMe). Up to 2TB total. In the configurator you have to pay attention to the read speeds to figure out if you are getting a SATA or PCIe drive. There is no indication for which brand of drive they are using. I have a few SSD controllers that are on my do not buy list, like anything made by Sandforce[1] after we lost almost an entire lot of computers to premature firmware failures and got absolutely no support from the vendor for even just resetting the firmware and starting over. [1] https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/ https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/
- wmf 5y ago
  Sandforce hasn't existed for years BTW. Unfortunately the general problem stands; virtually no laptop will tell you what SSD you're getting.
  - scns 5y ago
    At https://tuxedocomputers.com https://tuxedocomputers.com another Clevo reseller like System76, you can choose the SSD you want or even none and put it in yourself. Disclaimer: contented customer
- neogodless 5y ago
  While you're right that the brand is not listed, every single drive in the configurator lists NVME. The "Storage" specification you show is just what the M.2 connection supports as far as interface. So if you have an existing SATA M.2 drive, or want to buy one to save money, you can. The graphics are integrated into the APU, so you can look up their specifications. https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u
- jagger27 5y ago
  For graphics, the 5500U has 7 CUs at 1800 MHz. The 5700U has 8 CUs at 1900 MHz. They're both ancient Vega APUs so they're really nothing special.
neogodless 5y ago
Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand, but the hardware for the price isn't amazing. $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see brightness/color accuracy mentioned.) But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would love to hear how this is received by those in the right market segment! [0] A bunch of $600-700 laptops with this CPU: https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u
- acomjean 5y ago
  You are right that's the value add. Not having to worry if the hardware works and having a curated linux (popOS is very much like ubuntu). I've had a system 76 onyx laptop running popOS for over 2 years now. It keeps itself updated and I'm able to do my tasks with very minimal system configurations. Firmware updates come through fine. I think Linux hardware support is pretty good for a lot of laptops, but for me it was worth the extra money not to have to deal with it. My system 76 is "Clevo" OEMed machine. Very much evidenced when I let stuff get in the fan and I had to replace it. Parts are available. https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp As someone who is new to Linux on desktop, it was pretty great. I got Unreal engine compiled, Intelij and It can even use steam. My machine has a Nvidia 1060? so its actually pretty decent for the limited gaming I do. Like many things, if things go well and this scales up, the additional cost for having staff making sure linux is supported should go down.
- mariushn 5y ago
  $906 gets you Ryzen 7, 16GB RAM, 14", no numpad: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_ScreenSize_facet_733:13%27%27%20-%2014%27%27@{!ex=732}lengs_Processor_facet_732:AMD%20Ryzen%E2%84%A2%207%20Pro_AMD%20Ryzen%E2%84%A2%207@{!ex=740}lengs_Memory_facet_740:16%20GB&text=amd%20laptop%20&rows=20&page=1&sort=relevance&display_tab=Products https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_Screen...
  - neogodless 5y ago
ruined 5y ago
1080p screen is a no-go. come on yall, it's 2021
- cupofjoakim 5y ago
  Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. The upsides of not wasting battery and just performance of not having to push more pixels makes it worth it. Even gaming channels like LTT talk about this a bit. That being said - if you're coming from the macbooks retina it's definitely a downgrade. My guess however is that this device won't have a screen that is that good either way though.
  - ciupicri 5y ago
    Gamers are known of playing at lower resolutions so they would get more FPS.
  - bscphil 5y ago
    At 15.6 inches I think it depends pretty heavily on how good your operating system's font rendering is. If you're stuck on Windows I can't imagine using anything lower than 4k at that size. On the other hand, I'm using a 17.x inch laptop currently, only about a foot and a half from my face, at only 1080p, and it's fine. (Before you blame my vision - I'm actually nearsighted. My vision is near-perfect at this distance.) I certainly wouldn't accept this DPI from a current laptop, of course; the font rendering certainly could be a lot better and more density would be nice for easier photo editing and so on, but I think a lot of people have forgotten just how good 1080p can be if it's handled well in software. A whole generation spent most of their time on crappy CRTs. Compared to that almost any HD screen is an enormous improvement.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Sweet spot @15" for me is 1200p if I can get it 1440p otherwise. I haven't used a computer with less than 1200 vertical lines since 2004 and I don't plan on changing it.
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    > Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. Considering what I've recently learned about the fractional scaling mess, I would only buy laptops with a 1440p or 4K display because they don't need fractional scaling. I really wish there were more 24 inch 4K or 27 inch 5K monitors on the market and not the 27 inch 4K mess we're getting. I'm not sure what monitor manufacturers are thinking.
sebow 5y ago
Ugh, better late than never i guess... People have been waiting for this since 1st gen ryzen.Yea i know they're not on the Lenovo/Asus-tier of resources, but still.
second--shift 5y ago
who buys these instead of Lenovos for running Linux on? Lenovo T14's are going for 65% of the asking price of one of these, if you don't care about intel vs amd.
- cure 5y ago
  I have bought a few System76 laptops, though not this variant - I like to buy the ones that ship with coreboot. As for the price difference: you can buy the base model of the System76 and upgrade ram/disk yourself. This is harder to do on the Lenovo ones; it seems the T14 has (some of) the ram soldered on (ugh). But, it is nice to see that you can actually buy a T14 with Ubuntu preinstalled (if you are willing to wait 4+ months...), and they list it next to the (more expensive!) Windows version: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/thinkpad-t14-g1/22tpt14t4n1 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...
- istingray 5y ago
  Linux support is a side project for Lenovo. They could end it any any time. System76 is all in on Linux support. That's why I support them.
inetknght 5y ago
I have a System76 Serval WS with AMD Ryzen 9 3900 and Nvidia GTX 1660 Ti manufactured last year. The laptop's internal display went wonky late last week but an external display still works fine. It's annoying to reboot -- the GPU drivers aren't loaded yet when the boot disk passphrase prompt is shown, so the external display doesn't show the passphrase prompt (and importantly: whether unlocking succeeded). It's within a 1-year warranty for parts & labor. I'm currently talking to with System76 support staff to ship it back for repair. The process has, so far, been easy and straightforward. In the past they had pushed a driver update that disabled the laptop display when multiple monitors are connected. I had recognized the problem since their system drivers are open source and was able to recommend & review a PR to fix [0]. It was nice to see that patch go in. [0]: https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182 https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182
Thoreandan 5y ago
Unfortunately, it looks like <https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html> the Pangolin line has several non-open blobs in the firmware, so it's unclear if you can disable the AMD Platform Security Processor. The only available tech specs seem to be for pang10 not pang11 hardware, maybe this will change.
- schaefer 5y ago
  The pang11 specs are here: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html
shekhar101 5y ago
I really appreciate how affordable upgrades (RAM, Storage etc) are. I am not used to it. Apple adds a hefty premium on these upgrades (I understand this is not a 1:1 comparison). Configuration looks really solid and affordable!
NexRebular 5y ago
How's *BSD support on these ones?
georgewsinger 5y ago
If you're into "Linux-first" computing, you might also be interested in SimulaVR's "Linux-first" portable VR headset: www.simulavr.com It will run with an 11th gen Intel compute pack (x86 ), and have premium specs (roughly double the resolution of the Valve Index). Turning it on will boot you into SimulaVR's VR window manager (built over the Godot game engine) with hand tracking. All open source. It's intended to be more comparable to a Linux laptop (like System76) than a VR gaming device like the Quest.
- make3 5y ago
  "10x more productivity" ...
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    It depends on what you're comparing VR to (small laptop, larger/multi-screen rig, etc), and how you use it (e.g. https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive-single-tasking-virtual-reality-and-the-coming-age-of-hyper-productive-work/ https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive-single-...). Working in VR provides an enormous virtual space for immersive work, and can for the right person be actually 10x more productive.
    - make3 5y ago
      they just write 10x more productivity, which should mean on average workout other qualifiers. clearly that's impossible for any non gaslighting definition of productivity.
- istingray 5y ago
  Oo neat, thanks for pointing this out. Linux-first is the way.
vizzah 5y ago
When typing, my right fingers always resting covering 4 arrow keys (provided it's a full-sized keyboard and arrow keys are separated from the rest with enough blank space). I use right fingers to reach Home/End/PgUp/PgDn buttons, INSERT/DEL on numeric. So it's quite useful to have them all close-by.
acidburnNSA 5y ago
Kinda interesting that this has a 49 Wh battery while the smaller and less powerful Lemur Pro has a 73 Wh one [1]. I have the 2020 Lemur Pro and love the ridiculously long battery life. I guess this is more of a plug it in most of the day machine vs. an ultralight. [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
- istingray 5y ago
  Ah good to know, I've been trying to understand the difference between this and the Lemur Pro. I just purchased the Lemur and am happy with it.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
OMG and it has an HDMI 2.0? Is this the first real laptop that is as good as a 2013 macbook pro (aka the last HDMI non-ribbon one)
azinman2 5y ago
Did I miss it or does it not mention battery life?
Fatalist_ma 5y ago
Uhh I understand that good Linux support is valuable, but the price premium for that is just too high. For the base variant(5500u, 8gb, 240gb): Pangolin - 1200$ Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 - 430$[1] For a higher-end variant(5700u, 16gb, 500gb): Pangolin - 1542$ HP 15z - 640$[2] I admit these are the absolute cheapest ones I could find(using noteb.com), but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support). [1]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD-Ryzen-5-5500U-8GB-256GB-NVMe-TLC-SSD-AMD-Radeon-7-Graphics-Windows-10-Home-82KU003NUS/773741305 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD-Ryze... [2]: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15z-ef2000-touch-optional-2k3t2av-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15z-ef2000-touch...
- tempest_ 5y ago
  I don't know about the quality of the pangolin or the HP but I can tell you that lenovos consumer level laptops are pretty trash quality wise. The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a different story but even that is changing in recent years
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to make it sustain uncomfortable temps.
    - deepsun 5y ago
      Plastic laptop cases are objectively better than metallic ones. Plastic doesn't heat up your legs that much, and good carbon plastic is stronger than steel, weight-wise. Subjectively, metallic feels better though.
      - smichel17 5y ago
frellus 5y ago
I like and support anyone trying to do a Linux laptop, but sorry System76 -- I hate, hate, hate your keyboard layout. Awful! Take a look at the keyboard layout before you decide to purchase a system. Also, ask yourself if you shouldn't just be getting a Dell instead.
rossdavidh 5y ago
Just to add my anecdatum: I am on my third or fourth System76 laptop, the others are all still working just after a few years I need to upgrade. One is now the living room stereo and one is the gaming room stereo. The point I'm making is that they last for years, I think my oldest is a decade old and still works fine. So, just one person's experience but there it is.
luke2m 5y ago
I hope System76 adds a trackpoint/ pointing stick to their laptops or maybe the launch 2.
arnaudsm 5y ago
This is an huge deal : the 5700U is faster than the Mac M1 at the same wattage https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5700U/4104vs4156 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MH...
- mercutio2 5y ago
  If you have embarrassingly parallel loads, sure. But: CPU Single Thread Rating Apple M1 - 3,778 AMD 5700U - 2,636 suggests that "is faster" is going to depend on your perspective. Most loads I care about are single threaded. The 5700U is 8% faster on a synthetic multi-core benchmark vs. 30% slower on a single core benchmark. I know which CPU I'd choose if I had a choice.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    We're lucky now to be in the ballpark.
  - borgbean 5y ago
    I also doubt the AMD chip got those results anywhere near the 15w TDP. I didn't find concrete numbers on the 5700U, though. I would take an AMD chip over the M1 in a desktop any day, but not in a laptop.
  - throwaway2037 5y ago
    Woah. Nice quote about "CPU Single Thread Rating". Can you share a source? I can understand why there is this real push to reverse engineer the M1 platform to get Linux running on it! The efficiency per watt is amazing.
    - mercutio2 5y ago
      I just pulled that from the link I was responding to!
  - ksec 5y ago
    It is even worst considering 1. The Max boost clock of 5700U is 4.3Ghz. Compared to M1 at 3.2Ghz 2. The TDP of 5700 is Typical TDP, it doesn't actually take into account of boost. Not that it matters in a single thread performance comparison because it wont use 15W per single core, but still relevant info to keep in mind. On the other hand this is a Zen 2 on 7nm compared to M1 on 5nm. The Gap would be less if it was on Zen 3 and 5nm. But even then my guess it would something like 3000, still quite a bit to go to catch up with 3800.
lenkite 5y ago
Display is still a boring old 1920×1080 FHD. Once your eyes get used to the Macbook Retina display, it's difficult to downgrade.
stereoradonc 5y ago
The DIY laptop (fixable) are also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184
mybrid 5y ago
The thing about Lenovo is one can get a 4 year, on site, service contract for less than $500. If a keyboard key breaks, no problem, they swap it and come to your house. Over the hears I've had monitor pixels die. They don't care, they'll replace it. And unlike with Apple Lenovo doesn't mind if you replace the hard drive or other components yourself, the warranty is not voided.
- istingray 5y ago
  Linux is a side project for Lenovo though. System76 is a Linux-only vendor which means every interaction is with someone who knows what the heck they're talking about.
shams93 5y ago
I get away with a thinkpad chrome book I got for $700 with similar ryzen 5 and 8 gigs runs app my stuff including docker and android studio.
jmclnx 5y ago
Very nice, no Nvidia which for me is a big plus.
toastal 5y ago
There's no mention of the color gamut on that display. Necessary 1080p complaints aside, I couldn't buy a Linux laptop last year because all of the displays are trash. If you're lucky you can find 100% sRGB, but I and many others need 100% DCI-P3 and it's just not on offer. My 2-year-old $450 phone has P3 coverage, but almost nothing in the laptop space does.
antattack 5y ago
Seems better than Acer [1]but I don't think it's $700 better [1]https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002 https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002
crossroadsguy 5y ago
Honestly it does seem that a halo tax like Apple’s is already being added.
- istingray 5y ago
  That's the cost of getting Linux support in this day and age. Few other vendors will support you if you call up and have complaints about Linux.
schaefer 5y ago
I’ll briefly share the link to much more detailed system documentation. Including tear down/repair instructions: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html
- acomjean 5y ago
  Thats a pretty nice summary. Its pretty expandable (ram/drives/wireless), and has a lot of ports.
sneak 5y ago
1080p. Even my shitty XPS has a >200ppi display. Why do PC laptops so often have crap screens? How am I to replace a retina MBP with this?
- istingray 5y ago
  Suck it up for awhile and support a Linux-focused vendor? Linux won't magically succeed without your support. Linux is a side project for Dell at best, they have one model that officially supports (Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition).
jhanschoo 5y ago
I find it a little weird when integrated graphics is mentioned as prominently as such in marketing copy. "Ryzen CPU + Radeon graphics = Mobile AMD laptop."
stakkur 5y ago
I love the idea of System76. But the low budget keyboards on their rebranded hardware don’t do it for me. I heard they planned to manufacture their own machines recently, but I’d rather buy a ThinkPad for the awesome keyboard than gamble on whatever keyboard they’re using now.
mattl 5y ago
I like their desktops, but their previous laptops have been such painful generic Clevo machines.
anjel 5y ago
Since the customer is always right, make it a mechanical keyboard as your centering it, please.
lurtbancaster 5y ago
Why is it so hard to find laptops with ECC memory? Surely SO-DIMMs are just as susceptible to bitflips as regular Desktop DIMMs? Am I the only one to care about this?
- reilly3000 5y ago
  I believe ECC is incredibly hard to get these days, but I could be out of touch. It certainly was last year. I haven’t seen it in many laptop offerings over the years, except perhaps Dell’s workstation-type offerings as an option. I’m curious if bitflips have been an issue for you in your experience. I don’t think I’ve encountered it, but I may have misattributed various bugs to software defects when they were in fact due to bit flips.
  - lurtbancaster 5y ago
    That's the problem with bitflips isn't it? It's only a possibility that can be considered when all other possibilities have been eliminated. Whenever I've had non-ECC systems KPs/BSODs, it's possible that it might just be due to a bug, but in the back of my mind, I know there's always the possibility that it was due to a bitflip. I feel psychologically uncomfortable working on a computer without ECC. I say ECC everything - Desktops, Laptops, and even smartphones. This laptop proclaims a maximum of 64GB of RAM. If you do populate the slots with that much non-ECC RAM, that only further increases the surface area for random bitflips. What use is more RAM in a Linux laptop if it hasn't been made more reliable? It's high time more laptops shipped with ECC. At least unregistered ECC, if not buffered ones.
msravi 5y ago
Nice specs. I wonder why they don't offer 1x16G (instead of 2x8G) or 1x32G (instead of 2x16G) RAM options though - that would leave the other slot free for a future upgrade.
- Toadtoad 5y ago
  As far as I know, having two equivalent RAM sticks for dual channel mode helps performance, so most people choose that over having single stick, which is often frowned upon in the desktop space, at least.
hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
too expensive. should be the same price as a windows laptop minus ~$80 for the windows
- istingray 5y ago
  What price are you putting on getting Linux support from the vendor? System76 is Linux-only so they work to integrate their hardware and software together...few others offer this.
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noncoml 5y ago
I had a NUC(NUC6i7KYK) that no matter what I tried, I couldn't make WiFi work reliably. Tried Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, tries upgrading the driver blobs from Intel, nothing worked! Then one time for fun I tried Pop!_OS, and lo and behold, never had a problem with WiFi again! Good job System76!
holri 5y ago
What non free drivers / software are necessary to run this laptop?
ezoe 5y ago
Disappointed at display resolution. I'm forever waiting for a laptop with AMD CPU, no dedicated GPU, 4K built-in display, enough RAM, a few USB port and a Ethernet.
dcow 5y ago
Does anyone know how much power this draws when idle? With a 49WH battery and assuming 5W idle (which is what you can get the 4k series ryzen mobile down to on windows on a good day), that's just under 10 hours. Anyone have any tighter numbers? I would seriously consider buying this if I could actually expect 10 hours battery pretty consistently.
watermelon0 5y ago
What's up with these designs? Their laptops look like they are a few years behind, compared to MacBooks/XPS/Surface/etc. 1080p on 15" is quite criminal, do they think people look at this at 2 meter distance or something?
ksec 5y ago
One thing I notice in this and Framework's laptop is how much space we are trading for upgradability. Both SO-DIMM and M2 are massive. I guess for 2TB option you need M2 2280 rather than the 2242 variant. But SO-DIMM is just huge, and you need two of them. Compared to M1 which has LPDDR5 within the package, and SSD Controller Built in. We need something that combined the Dual Channel Support within one Slot and at least half the width of SO-DIMM.
peter_retief 5y ago
At 2000 usd it is too expensive for me. Is this a normal price for a new laptop? I am in the market for a new laptop and am a linux user.
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  depends what you want to do with it, I guess. I have a laptop running Linux that cost me $400 in 2016. Similar spec is $600 now. I'm fairly sure I can get by with what I do (YouTube, streaming, documents, web programming) fairly well with it.
- istingray 5y ago
  Definitely check out System76. They're one of the few Linux-only laptop vendors. That means you're supporting the future of Linux by making it mainstream and helping more Linux-focused models exist. Dell and Lenovo put up with Linux but it's a side project for them at best. And other vendors dgaf.
  - peter_retief 5y ago
    My thoughts as well.
rvz 5y ago
Would have been a go-to viable option had it not been for the Framework Laptops and the Apple Silicon lineup. I doubt the battery life on this thing is going to last a single day or even more than 12 hours compared with the Apple Silicon laptops out there or even the upcoming M1X Laptops. Hence this, I am in no hurry to rush into buying this contraption and will just skip it for the alternatives.
LMYahooTFY 5y ago
I wonder about AMD support, I've been running Pop OS on a Thinkpad A285 for a while and the computer freezes pretty consistently. I'm not sure if it's related to video playback but it seems like it might be a pattern. I've tried multiple kernel versions to no avail.
peignoir 5y ago
System76 seems to be making good laptops but on side I’m happy with my zephyrus it’s amd 3900HS it has a 3070 for AI and it’s 200/300 $ more and has a great Linux community. Not sure what system76 value prop is on that market.
- HanaShiratori 5y ago
  Same here, been using the g14 since last year as my main arch machine and couldn't be happier.
- istingray 5y ago
  Sure, Linux happens to work on your Zephyrus. But System76 is a Linux-only vendor and is working to integrate hardware and software. That means you're getting great support from Linux geeks on any issues that arise - and investing in the future of Linux rather than begging free help from a community.
bestouff 5y ago
The only missing part for me is thunderbolt. I'm so used to it in laptops I would have a hard time without it.
- xxs 5y ago
  It's an AMD machine, no thunderbolt.
noderblade 5y ago
Wft is wrong with laptop market. Fhd on 15". While smartphones usually comes with fhd+ and 4k on 6 inches.
- peakaboo 5y ago
  Battery time is always much better if you avoid the 4k screens and such.
  - noderblade 5y ago
    Its plain bs it has been tested on multiple platforms yielding almost the same times. Also if pixel count would be an issue smarphones would also go this way as they are more battery time critical.
xvilka 5y ago
Is it coreboot-based? Modern laptops firmware is bigger than Linux kernel and has too much crap inside. Intel is openly hostile to the open source firmware, while it's theoretically possible to do that on AMD systems.
jokoon 5y ago
How well can it be repaired? To be completely honest, the framework laptop makes me realize I'd rather buy a laptop that can be repaired rather than a linux laptop...
zingar 5y ago
How's the trackpad? You'll pry my MacBook from my cold dead hands unless you can give me a trackpad that is as good.
- megous 5y ago
  Trackpad mechanics is just something to get used to, just like switching to a keyboard with a different layout. Annoying/frustrating at first, after a week you can care less. It's like the comparatively fucked up natural scrolling on macOS, when coming from windows, or whatever it's called. Your brain will accommodate.
- istingray 5y ago
  It's roughly comparable to one of the non-haptic trackpads on a Macbook Air (pre-2015 I believe?). For me, I'm willing to put up with it because Apple is a dead end given their new surveillance hobby.
melbourne_mat 5y ago
Tough sell given the M1 MacBook air is $800
RGamma 5y ago
No trackpoint :(
veidr 5y ago
I love System76, and I use and love Pop!_OS (despite the offensive and undignified name). I tried to buy their beefy Thelios desktop with wood paneling (but they don't ship to my country). But... on what planet is a 1080p screen still OK for a mid-range or higher laptop in 2021? For laptops, I've used Apples and Dells over the past 7 years and I don't think any of them were that low resolution. I want to buy their shit; I even bought their insanely expensive $300 keyboard just because I think they are awesome. But I wouldn't buy a 1080p laptop in this day and age for any price. Pop OS (as sane people call it) also happens to work fabulously on high resolution monitors! I run it on a 4-year-old 32" 8K Dell UP3218K monitor at 200% pixel doubling, and it looks fantastic — much better and way crisper text than any Mac (e.g., my work M1 Mac Mini with hyperexpensive 6K XDR Display or my 27" 5K iMac Pro). For that Dell display, 200% is perfect, but Reddit says fractional scaling also works great on Pop OS. So it's not like they have some technical reason they need to use blurry low-res displays. It's just kind of weird. I would absolutely buy this otherwise, but the weird retro display is a deal-breaker. (I don't give a shit about the off-center keyboard or numpad though, so I guess we all have our own individual deal-breakers....) As an aside: Pop OS is really awesome, though — a great distro for those of us who were always rooting for Linux, preferred open source and felt like we were the kind of person who wanted that approach to win out and would likely use Linux, but mainly ended up usually buying Macs for purposes of convenience and just getting our shit done. Pretty much works great and stays out of your way. :-D
- jklinger410 5y ago
  > (despite the offensive and undignified name) Would love to hear what is offensive and undignified about it. > But I wouldn't buy a 1080p laptop in this day and age for any price. Most laptops are 1080p (or less), but I guess you're allowed to have that opinion. --- Personally I feel opposite about them. I like their hardware, hate the OS. POP OS! is ugly, full stop. They'd be better off going with Arch or Fedora base so they can keep closer to modern GNOME and potentially offer other DEs easier. Every beta they ship for POP is super broken in one way or another, and I hate cosmic, so I rock Arch on it.
  - veidr 5y ago

553 points by sampling 5y ago

pyrophane 5y ago

If it weren't for that damn 16:9 display this would be a good machine for me.

Guest42 5y ago

Would ordering one of these with 32gb of ram lead to a significant decrease in battery performance?

neogodless 5y ago
Looks like the increase from 8GB to 32GB is going from ~3W to 12W of power consumption. The CPU likely consumes 30-45W depending on configuration. So it's not trivial, all things considered.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  CPUS or SOCs these days can achieve quite low power states when in idle, like aingle digit watts. Where do you get the 12w from?
  - Guest42 5y ago
    Thanks for followup, I was curious if the ram was allocated in blocks if sections could go unused. Right now I have 16gb and it's been great and I generally don't put much pressure on it (except for some occasional Android Studio virtualizing). However, it seems as though software resource usage has a tendency to creep up over time so it seemed like more RAM would be a safe option. I also tend to use the computer more lightly when it's unplugged. I don't know much about hardware so all input is appreciated.
  - neogodless 5y ago
    Just a preliminary web search. Here's one example: https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-much-power-does-memory-use https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-much... > As a rule of thumb, however, you want to allocate around 3 watts of power for every 8GB of DDR3 or DDR4 memory. High-performance memory such as Ballistix® parts can draw more power, especially if you overclock the voltage beyond XMP settings. Similar numbers here for slower DDR4-2133. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-haswell-e-cpu,3918-13.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-has...
- kcb 5y ago
  Wouldn't that only really apply while doing intensive memory accessing. Something that you would probably only be doing a very small percentage of time.
  - fnord77 5y ago
    no - simply refreshing memory state costs power. The DRAM memory refresh cycle happens about every 60ms. In the background, memory cells are constantly read and rewritten. Power consumption adds up pretty quickly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh
    - kcb 5y ago
      Sure but that is not peak power consumption. The charts I'm seeing for DRAM power consumption are based on the gbps.

m0zg 5y ago

1080p in 2021, targeting a "tech" audience? Good luck with that.

alkonaut 5y ago
Most people who do tech work in the sense of using a computer for most part of their days such as software devs (I hope) use external keyboards and screens and mice anyway, 99% of the time. AC adapter plugged in. With the WFH trend, this will be a growing trend. I unplug the AC adapter and monitor to go over to someone's desk or hold a presentation perhaps a few times a month at most. I would not want to write code a whole day on even the best laptop keyboard and the most crispy 4K laptop screen. There is a surprising lack of choice for laptops targeting this mode of use though. For example the $3k Dell precision I have now doesn't like being used plugged in for extended periods. They put a category of battery in them that swells when heated. So if you, like me, leave it on for say a year at your desk (This happened during the pandemic) - it expands and the keyboard and trackpad stops working. When you go for a "workstation" class laptop, the manufacturers have crammed so much perf into an impossibly small package, that it's screaming loud and glowing hot. Just make it twice as thick with half the battery size and I'll buy it.

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winter_blue 5y ago

The price is a bit too high (as always with System76). Last year, for the same price ($1,199) on sale, I bought a ASUS Zephyrus G14 with a Ryzen 4900HS and RTX 2060. Right now, you get it (for a bit more) with a 5900HS and RTX 3060. Both the 5900HS and the 4900HS will beat the low-wattage 5700U in performance handily. The G14 has a 76 Wh, so despite the “higher”-power (35 Watt) CPU, it’ll still get a LOT of battery life.

teekert 5y ago
System76 is nice, in this podcast the CEO is interviewed: [0]. He is dedicated to transparency, open source and privacy. They’re worth some extra money to me. Although I’m still waiting for their custom designed, all aluminium top of the line laptop :) [0]: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-unplugged/id687598126?i=1000532340179 https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-unplugged/id6875...
- cassepipe 5y ago
  Is this custom design all-aluminum design on their road map? I'd buy it, I'd order it next year and pay right now even. The only thing preventing from buying one of their laptop is I am wary of all plastic laptops that break apart after five years although they are working perfectly. Basically I just want a MacBook that runs Linux perfectly.
  - teekert 5y ago
    They been planning it for years [0]. I guess experiences with their high end keyboard [1] will teach them valuable lessons, the podcast I posted is mainly about that keyboard and the manufacturing challenges. I indeed also hope for a MBP equivalent (non-clevo) System76 laptop. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/11/20/system76-will-start-designing-and-building-its-own-linux-laptops-beginning-january-2020/#34db367b3e16 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/11/20/syste... [1]: https://system76.com/accessories/launch https://system76.com/accessories/launch

Rd6n6 5y ago

What are system76 keyboards and trackpads like? I wish I could touch one before having to decide whether to buy

hellcow 5y ago
I bought a system76 years ago wanting to support their open source work. Maybe it's changed since (?), but mine had a Clevo shell which meant it had a bad keyboard and a terrible trackpad, with a cheap plastic feel and lots of flex. It's the first laptop I ever replaced within a month... The keyboard was later recalled, so I swapped it out with a new one they sent me which wasn't cut to the correct dimensions and never fit (bubbling up in the center and leaving a gap around the keyboard for things to fall into).
- istingray 5y ago
  Their newer stuff may be better. I just ordered a brand new Lemur Pro 14". Keyboard and trackpad aren't anything to brag about but seem fine.
trashface 5y ago
I have an oryp5 (2019). The keyboard is ok. The numeric pad is annoying though, as others have commented. I definitely prefer my old mac which didn't have one. The touchpad is awful. Way too sensitive to palm touches, even in windows - so it isn't just a linux driver issue. This might be related to the fact that its off center but I think its just lousy hardware. In linux I've tweaked both the touchpad area (reduced) and threshold settings but its still barely usable and I palm-touch constantly unless I hold my hand at an awkward angle. Maybe this pangolin is better but I looked at the overhead picture of the keyboard and it looks almost identical to my oryp5. The touchpad may be upgraded hardware, so I don't know. I love what system 76 is doing, PopOS is great, but I really wish they'd get off these Clevo laptops. The hardware just isn't very good, IMO.
- slategruen 5y ago
  > The touchpad is awful Have you tried it with Wayland?

cbHXBY1D 5y ago

I would love this in the Lemur Pro. Not sure where coreboot is for all AMD chipsets.

jhoho 5y ago
The work is ongoing, it might take until the next release: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot-4.14-Released https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot...

eecc 5y ago

Ouch: * 1080p * beancouter optimized keyboard why?

chludek 5y ago

Pretty much no details about the display. What kind of panel is this? What's the maximum brightness? How fast is the refresh rate? How large is the color gamut?

protomyth 5y ago

I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing on these larger portables.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago
i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other characters.
  - baron_harkonnen 5y ago
    I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers. I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide.
    - wott 5y ago
      > I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide. Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch-type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main part of a keyboard). I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could get used to it).

lanevorockz 5y ago

Looks great

frant-hartm 5y ago

I don't understand why they don't offer 128 GB version.

detaro 5y ago
Quite simple: The CPU doesn't support that.

jagger27 5y ago

I say it every time every time one of these threads pop up and I’ll say it again here: if it’s not 16:10 or 3:2 I’m simply not interested. I buy devices like this for productivity. I don't care about black bars when watching videos because I don't watch videos on it. What I absolutely care about is the extra inch of text in my terminal or text editor. I didn't think this was a controversial opinion.

bo1024 5y ago
Framework might be for you! I think it's 3:2.
- jagger27 5y ago
  Indeed it's nearly perfect, but I would only buy it with a considerably better processor. Both Intel and AMD have incredible stuff lined up for the next few years in that space. For now though, since I have to keep a Mac around for work, I'll probably stick with my M1 MacBook Air for my portable needs and keep using Linux on my desktop.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    a great thing about the framework though is the processor is upgradeable! So once the new stuff comes out ...
    - jagger27 5y ago
      Yes, if I haven’t just bought this MacBook I’d probably consider it.
    - qudat 5y ago
      You're still forced into buying an intel chip now. I'm holding out for an AMD with frame.work before purchasing. Hopefully they will come out with one before I purchase a M1 macbook air.
      - 5y ago

jandrese 5y ago

The specs page is a bit vague in places. Graphics AMD Radeon™ Graphics Storage 1 x M.2 SSD(SATA or PCIe NVMe). Up to 2TB total. In the configurator you have to pay attention to the read speeds to figure out if you are getting a SATA or PCIe drive. There is no indication for which brand of drive they are using. I have a few SSD controllers that are on my do not buy list, like anything made by Sandforce[1] after we lost almost an entire lot of computers to premature firmware failures and got absolutely no support from the vendor for even just resetting the firmware and starting over. [1] https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/ https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/

wmf 5y ago
Sandforce hasn't existed for years BTW. Unfortunately the general problem stands; virtually no laptop will tell you what SSD you're getting.
- scns 5y ago
  At https://tuxedocomputers.com https://tuxedocomputers.com another Clevo reseller like System76, you can choose the SSD you want or even none and put it in yourself. Disclaimer: contented customer
neogodless 5y ago
While you're right that the brand is not listed, every single drive in the configurator lists NVME. The "Storage" specification you show is just what the M.2 connection supports as far as interface. So if you have an existing SATA M.2 drive, or want to buy one to save money, you can. The graphics are integrated into the APU, so you can look up their specifications. https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u
jagger27 5y ago
For graphics, the 5500U has 7 CUs at 1800 MHz. The 5700U has 8 CUs at 1900 MHz. They're both ancient Vega APUs so they're really nothing special.

neogodless 5y ago

Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand, but the hardware for the price isn't amazing. $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see brightness/color accuracy mentioned.) But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would love to hear how this is received by those in the right market segment! [0] A bunch of $600-700 laptops with this CPU: https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u

acomjean 5y ago
You are right that's the value add. Not having to worry if the hardware works and having a curated linux (popOS is very much like ubuntu). I've had a system 76 onyx laptop running popOS for over 2 years now. It keeps itself updated and I'm able to do my tasks with very minimal system configurations. Firmware updates come through fine. I think Linux hardware support is pretty good for a lot of laptops, but for me it was worth the extra money not to have to deal with it. My system 76 is "Clevo" OEMed machine. Very much evidenced when I let stuff get in the fan and I had to replace it. Parts are available. https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp As someone who is new to Linux on desktop, it was pretty great. I got Unreal engine compiled, Intelij and It can even use steam. My machine has a Nvidia 1060? so its actually pretty decent for the limited gaming I do. Like many things, if things go well and this scales up, the additional cost for having staff making sure linux is supported should go down.
mariushn 5y ago
$906 gets you Ryzen 7, 16GB RAM, 14", no numpad: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_ScreenSize_facet_733:13%27%27%20-%2014%27%27@{!ex=732}lengs_Processor_facet_732:AMD%20Ryzen%E2%84%A2%207%20Pro_AMD%20Ryzen%E2%84%A2%207@{!ex=740}lengs_Memory_facet_740:16%20GB&text=amd%20laptop%20&rows=20&page=1&sort=relevance&display_tab=Products https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_Screen...
- neogodless 5y ago

ruined 5y ago

1080p screen is a no-go. come on yall, it's 2021

cupofjoakim 5y ago
Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. The upsides of not wasting battery and just performance of not having to push more pixels makes it worth it. Even gaming channels like LTT talk about this a bit. That being said - if you're coming from the macbooks retina it's definitely a downgrade. My guess however is that this device won't have a screen that is that good either way though.
- ciupicri 5y ago
  Gamers are known of playing at lower resolutions so they would get more FPS.
- bscphil 5y ago
  At 15.6 inches I think it depends pretty heavily on how good your operating system's font rendering is. If you're stuck on Windows I can't imagine using anything lower than 4k at that size. On the other hand, I'm using a 17.x inch laptop currently, only about a foot and a half from my face, at only 1080p, and it's fine. (Before you blame my vision - I'm actually nearsighted. My vision is near-perfect at this distance.) I certainly wouldn't accept this DPI from a current laptop, of course; the font rendering certainly could be a lot better and more density would be nice for easier photo editing and so on, but I think a lot of people have forgotten just how good 1080p can be if it's handled well in software. A whole generation spent most of their time on crappy CRTs. Compared to that almost any HD screen is an enormous improvement.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Sweet spot @15" for me is 1200p if I can get it 1440p otherwise. I haven't used a computer with less than 1200 vertical lines since 2004 and I don't plan on changing it.
- ayushnix 5y ago
  > Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. Considering what I've recently learned about the fractional scaling mess, I would only buy laptops with a 1440p or 4K display because they don't need fractional scaling. I really wish there were more 24 inch 4K or 27 inch 5K monitors on the market and not the 27 inch 4K mess we're getting. I'm not sure what monitor manufacturers are thinking.

sebow 5y ago

Ugh, better late than never i guess... People have been waiting for this since 1st gen ryzen.Yea i know they're not on the Lenovo/Asus-tier of resources, but still.

second--shift 5y ago

who buys these instead of Lenovos for running Linux on? Lenovo T14's are going for 65% of the asking price of one of these, if you don't care about intel vs amd.

cure 5y ago
I have bought a few System76 laptops, though not this variant - I like to buy the ones that ship with coreboot. As for the price difference: you can buy the base model of the System76 and upgrade ram/disk yourself. This is harder to do on the Lenovo ones; it seems the T14 has (some of) the ram soldered on (ugh). But, it is nice to see that you can actually buy a T14 with Ubuntu preinstalled (if you are willing to wait 4+ months...), and they list it next to the (more expensive!) Windows version: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/thinkpad-t14-g1/22tpt14t4n1 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...
istingray 5y ago
Linux support is a side project for Lenovo. They could end it any any time. System76 is all in on Linux support. That's why I support them.

inetknght 5y ago

I have a System76 Serval WS with AMD Ryzen 9 3900 and Nvidia GTX 1660 Ti manufactured last year. The laptop's internal display went wonky late last week but an external display still works fine. It's annoying to reboot -- the GPU drivers aren't loaded yet when the boot disk passphrase prompt is shown, so the external display doesn't show the passphrase prompt (and importantly: whether unlocking succeeded). It's within a 1-year warranty for parts & labor. I'm currently talking to with System76 support staff to ship it back for repair. The process has, so far, been easy and straightforward. In the past they had pushed a driver update that disabled the laptop display when multiple monitors are connected. I had recognized the problem since their system drivers are open source and was able to recommend & review a PR to fix [0]. It was nice to see that patch go in. [0]: https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182 https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182

Thoreandan 5y ago

Unfortunately, it looks like <https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html> the Pangolin line has several non-open blobs in the firmware, so it's unclear if you can disable the AMD Platform Security Processor. The only available tech specs seem to be for pang10 not pang11 hardware, maybe this will change.

schaefer 5y ago
The pang11 specs are here: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html

shekhar101 5y ago

I really appreciate how affordable upgrades (RAM, Storage etc) are. I am not used to it. Apple adds a hefty premium on these upgrades (I understand this is not a 1:1 comparison). Configuration looks really solid and affordable!

NexRebular 5y ago

How's *BSD support on these ones?

georgewsinger 5y ago

If you're into "Linux-first" computing, you might also be interested in SimulaVR's "Linux-first" portable VR headset: www.simulavr.com It will run with an 11th gen Intel compute pack (x86 ), and have premium specs (roughly double the resolution of the Valve Index). Turning it on will boot you into SimulaVR's VR window manager (built over the Godot game engine) with hand tracking. All open source. It's intended to be more comparable to a Linux laptop (like System76) than a VR gaming device like the Quest.

make3 5y ago
"10x more productivity" ...
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  It depends on what you're comparing VR to (small laptop, larger/multi-screen rig, etc), and how you use it (e.g. https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive-single-tasking-virtual-reality-and-the-coming-age-of-hyper-productive-work/ https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive-single-...). Working in VR provides an enormous virtual space for immersive work, and can for the right person be actually 10x more productive.
  - make3 5y ago
    they just write 10x more productivity, which should mean on average workout other qualifiers. clearly that's impossible for any non gaslighting definition of productivity.
istingray 5y ago
Oo neat, thanks for pointing this out. Linux-first is the way.

vizzah 5y ago

When typing, my right fingers always resting covering 4 arrow keys (provided it's a full-sized keyboard and arrow keys are separated from the rest with enough blank space). I use right fingers to reach Home/End/PgUp/PgDn buttons, INSERT/DEL on numeric. So it's quite useful to have them all close-by.

acidburnNSA 5y ago

Kinda interesting that this has a 49 Wh battery while the smaller and less powerful Lemur Pro has a 73 Wh one [1]. I have the 2020 Lemur Pro and love the ridiculously long battery life. I guess this is more of a plug it in most of the day machine vs. an ultralight. [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur https://system76.com/laptops/lemur

istingray 5y ago
Ah good to know, I've been trying to understand the difference between this and the Lemur Pro. I just purchased the Lemur and am happy with it.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

OMG and it has an HDMI 2.0? Is this the first real laptop that is as good as a 2013 macbook pro (aka the last HDMI non-ribbon one)

azinman2 5y ago

Did I miss it or does it not mention battery life?

Fatalist_ma 5y ago

Uhh I understand that good Linux support is valuable, but the price premium for that is just too high. For the base variant(5500u, 8gb, 240gb): Pangolin - 1200$ Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 - 430$[1] For a higher-end variant(5700u, 16gb, 500gb): Pangolin - 1542$ HP 15z - 640$[2] I admit these are the absolute cheapest ones I could find(using noteb.com), but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support). [1]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD-Ryzen-5-5500U-8GB-256GB-NVMe-TLC-SSD-AMD-Radeon-7-Graphics-Windows-10-Home-82KU003NUS/773741305 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD-Ryze... [2]: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15z-ef2000-touch-optional-2k3t2av-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15z-ef2000-touch...

tempest_ 5y ago
I don't know about the quality of the pangolin or the HP but I can tell you that lenovos consumer level laptops are pretty trash quality wise. The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a different story but even that is changing in recent years
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to make it sustain uncomfortable temps.
  - deepsun 5y ago
    Plastic laptop cases are objectively better than metallic ones. Plastic doesn't heat up your legs that much, and good carbon plastic is stronger than steel, weight-wise. Subjectively, metallic feels better though.
    - smichel17 5y ago

frellus 5y ago

I like and support anyone trying to do a Linux laptop, but sorry System76 -- I hate, hate, hate your keyboard layout. Awful! Take a look at the keyboard layout before you decide to purchase a system. Also, ask yourself if you shouldn't just be getting a Dell instead.

rossdavidh 5y ago

Just to add my anecdatum: I am on my third or fourth System76 laptop, the others are all still working just after a few years I need to upgrade. One is now the living room stereo and one is the gaming room stereo. The point I'm making is that they last for years, I think my oldest is a decade old and still works fine. So, just one person's experience but there it is.

luke2m 5y ago

I hope System76 adds a trackpoint/ pointing stick to their laptops or maybe the launch 2.

arnaudsm 5y ago

This is an huge deal : the 5700U is faster than the Mac M1 at the same wattage https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5700U/4104vs4156 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MH...

mercutio2 5y ago
If you have embarrassingly parallel loads, sure. But: CPU Single Thread Rating Apple M1 - 3,778 AMD 5700U - 2,636 suggests that "is faster" is going to depend on your perspective. Most loads I care about are single threaded. The 5700U is 8% faster on a synthetic multi-core benchmark vs. 30% slower on a single core benchmark. I know which CPU I'd choose if I had a choice.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  We're lucky now to be in the ballpark.
- borgbean 5y ago
  I also doubt the AMD chip got those results anywhere near the 15w TDP. I didn't find concrete numbers on the 5700U, though. I would take an AMD chip over the M1 in a desktop any day, but not in a laptop.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  Woah. Nice quote about "CPU Single Thread Rating". Can you share a source? I can understand why there is this real push to reverse engineer the M1 platform to get Linux running on it! The efficiency per watt is amazing.
  - mercutio2 5y ago
    I just pulled that from the link I was responding to!
- ksec 5y ago
  It is even worst considering 1. The Max boost clock of 5700U is 4.3Ghz. Compared to M1 at 3.2Ghz 2. The TDP of 5700 is Typical TDP, it doesn't actually take into account of boost. Not that it matters in a single thread performance comparison because it wont use 15W per single core, but still relevant info to keep in mind. On the other hand this is a Zen 2 on 7nm compared to M1 on 5nm. The Gap would be less if it was on Zen 3 and 5nm. But even then my guess it would something like 3000, still quite a bit to go to catch up with 3800.

lenkite 5y ago

Display is still a boring old 1920×1080 FHD. Once your eyes get used to the Macbook Retina display, it's difficult to downgrade.

stereoradonc 5y ago

The DIY laptop (fixable) are also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184

mybrid 5y ago

The thing about Lenovo is one can get a 4 year, on site, service contract for less than $500. If a keyboard key breaks, no problem, they swap it and come to your house. Over the hears I've had monitor pixels die. They don't care, they'll replace it. And unlike with Apple Lenovo doesn't mind if you replace the hard drive or other components yourself, the warranty is not voided.

istingray 5y ago
Linux is a side project for Lenovo though. System76 is a Linux-only vendor which means every interaction is with someone who knows what the heck they're talking about.

shams93 5y ago

I get away with a thinkpad chrome book I got for $700 with similar ryzen 5 and 8 gigs runs app my stuff including docker and android studio.

jmclnx 5y ago

Very nice, no Nvidia which for me is a big plus.

toastal 5y ago

There's no mention of the color gamut on that display. Necessary 1080p complaints aside, I couldn't buy a Linux laptop last year because all of the displays are trash. If you're lucky you can find 100% sRGB, but I and many others need 100% DCI-P3 and it's just not on offer. My 2-year-old $450 phone has P3 coverage, but almost nothing in the laptop space does.

antattack 5y ago

Seems better than Acer [1]but I don't think it's $700 better [1]https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002 https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002

crossroadsguy 5y ago

Honestly it does seem that a halo tax like Apple’s is already being added.

istingray 5y ago
That's the cost of getting Linux support in this day and age. Few other vendors will support you if you call up and have complaints about Linux.

schaefer 5y ago

I’ll briefly share the link to much more detailed system documentation. Including tear down/repair instructions: https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html

acomjean 5y ago
Thats a pretty nice summary. Its pretty expandable (ram/drives/wireless), and has a lot of ports.

sneak 5y ago

1080p. Even my shitty XPS has a >200ppi display. Why do PC laptops so often have crap screens? How am I to replace a retina MBP with this?

istingray 5y ago
Suck it up for awhile and support a Linux-focused vendor? Linux won't magically succeed without your support. Linux is a side project for Dell at best, they have one model that officially supports (Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition).

jhanschoo 5y ago

I find it a little weird when integrated graphics is mentioned as prominently as such in marketing copy. "Ryzen CPU + Radeon graphics = Mobile AMD laptop."

stakkur 5y ago

I love the idea of System76. But the low budget keyboards on their rebranded hardware don’t do it for me. I heard they planned to manufacture their own machines recently, but I’d rather buy a ThinkPad for the awesome keyboard than gamble on whatever keyboard they’re using now.

mattl 5y ago

I like their desktops, but their previous laptops have been such painful generic Clevo machines.

anjel 5y ago

Since the customer is always right, make it a mechanical keyboard as your centering it, please.

lurtbancaster 5y ago

Why is it so hard to find laptops with ECC memory? Surely SO-DIMMs are just as susceptible to bitflips as regular Desktop DIMMs? Am I the only one to care about this?

reilly3000 5y ago
I believe ECC is incredibly hard to get these days, but I could be out of touch. It certainly was last year. I haven’t seen it in many laptop offerings over the years, except perhaps Dell’s workstation-type offerings as an option. I’m curious if bitflips have been an issue for you in your experience. I don’t think I’ve encountered it, but I may have misattributed various bugs to software defects when they were in fact due to bit flips.
- lurtbancaster 5y ago
  That's the problem with bitflips isn't it? It's only a possibility that can be considered when all other possibilities have been eliminated. Whenever I've had non-ECC systems KPs/BSODs, it's possible that it might just be due to a bug, but in the back of my mind, I know there's always the possibility that it was due to a bitflip. I feel psychologically uncomfortable working on a computer without ECC. I say ECC everything - Desktops, Laptops, and even smartphones. This laptop proclaims a maximum of 64GB of RAM. If you do populate the slots with that much non-ECC RAM, that only further increases the surface area for random bitflips. What use is more RAM in a Linux laptop if it hasn't been made more reliable? It's high time more laptops shipped with ECC. At least unregistered ECC, if not buffered ones.

msravi 5y ago

Nice specs. I wonder why they don't offer 1x16G (instead of 2x8G) or 1x32G (instead of 2x16G) RAM options though - that would leave the other slot free for a future upgrade.

Toadtoad 5y ago
As far as I know, having two equivalent RAM sticks for dual channel mode helps performance, so most people choose that over having single stick, which is often frowned upon in the desktop space, at least.

hazza_n_dazza 5y ago

too expensive. should be the same price as a windows laptop minus ~$80 for the windows

istingray 5y ago
What price are you putting on getting Linux support from the vendor? System76 is Linux-only so they work to integrate their hardware and software together...few others offer this.

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noncoml 5y ago

I had a NUC(NUC6i7KYK) that no matter what I tried, I couldn't make WiFi work reliably. Tried Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, tries upgrading the driver blobs from Intel, nothing worked! Then one time for fun I tried Pop!_OS, and lo and behold, never had a problem with WiFi again! Good job System76!

holri 5y ago

What non free drivers / software are necessary to run this laptop?

ezoe 5y ago

Disappointed at display resolution. I'm forever waiting for a laptop with AMD CPU, no dedicated GPU, 4K built-in display, enough RAM, a few USB port and a Ethernet.

dcow 5y ago

Does anyone know how much power this draws when idle? With a 49WH battery and assuming 5W idle (which is what you can get the 4k series ryzen mobile down to on windows on a good day), that's just under 10 hours. Anyone have any tighter numbers? I would seriously consider buying this if I could actually expect 10 hours battery pretty consistently.

watermelon0 5y ago

What's up with these designs? Their laptops look like they are a few years behind, compared to MacBooks/XPS/Surface/etc. 1080p on 15" is quite criminal, do they think people look at this at 2 meter distance or something?

ksec 5y ago

One thing I notice in this and Framework's laptop is how much space we are trading for upgradability. Both SO-DIMM and M2 are massive. I guess for 2TB option you need M2 2280 rather than the 2242 variant. But SO-DIMM is just huge, and you need two of them. Compared to M1 which has LPDDR5 within the package, and SSD Controller Built in. We need something that combined the Dual Channel Support within one Slot and at least half the width of SO-DIMM.

peter_retief 5y ago

At 2000 usd it is too expensive for me. Is this a normal price for a new laptop? I am in the market for a new laptop and am a linux user.

approxim8ion 5y ago
depends what you want to do with it, I guess. I have a laptop running Linux that cost me $400 in 2016. Similar spec is $600 now. I'm fairly sure I can get by with what I do (YouTube, streaming, documents, web programming) fairly well with it.
istingray 5y ago
Definitely check out System76. They're one of the few Linux-only laptop vendors. That means you're supporting the future of Linux by making it mainstream and helping more Linux-focused models exist. Dell and Lenovo put up with Linux but it's a side project for them at best. And other vendors dgaf.
- peter_retief 5y ago
  My thoughts as well.

rvz 5y ago

Would have been a go-to viable option had it not been for the Framework Laptops and the Apple Silicon lineup. I doubt the battery life on this thing is going to last a single day or even more than 12 hours compared with the Apple Silicon laptops out there or even the upcoming M1X Laptops. Hence this, I am in no hurry to rush into buying this contraption and will just skip it for the alternatives.

LMYahooTFY 5y ago

I wonder about AMD support, I've been running Pop OS on a Thinkpad A285 for a while and the computer freezes pretty consistently. I'm not sure if it's related to video playback but it seems like it might be a pattern. I've tried multiple kernel versions to no avail.

peignoir 5y ago

System76 seems to be making good laptops but on side I’m happy with my zephyrus it’s amd 3900HS it has a 3070 for AI and it’s 200/300 $ more and has a great Linux community. Not sure what system76 value prop is on that market.

HanaShiratori 5y ago
Same here, been using the g14 since last year as my main arch machine and couldn't be happier.
istingray 5y ago
Sure, Linux happens to work on your Zephyrus. But System76 is a Linux-only vendor and is working to integrate hardware and software. That means you're getting great support from Linux geeks on any issues that arise - and investing in the future of Linux rather than begging free help from a community.

bestouff 5y ago

The only missing part for me is thunderbolt. I'm so used to it in laptops I would have a hard time without it.

xxs 5y ago
It's an AMD machine, no thunderbolt.

noderblade 5y ago

Wft is wrong with laptop market. Fhd on 15". While smartphones usually comes with fhd+ and 4k on 6 inches.

peakaboo 5y ago
Battery time is always much better if you avoid the 4k screens and such.
- noderblade 5y ago
  Its plain bs it has been tested on multiple platforms yielding almost the same times. Also if pixel count would be an issue smarphones would also go this way as they are more battery time critical.

xvilka 5y ago

Is it coreboot-based? Modern laptops firmware is bigger than Linux kernel and has too much crap inside. Intel is openly hostile to the open source firmware, while it's theoretically possible to do that on AMD systems.

jokoon 5y ago

How well can it be repaired? To be completely honest, the framework laptop makes me realize I'd rather buy a laptop that can be repaired rather than a linux laptop...

zingar 5y ago

How's the trackpad? You'll pry my MacBook from my cold dead hands unless you can give me a trackpad that is as good.

megous 5y ago
Trackpad mechanics is just something to get used to, just like switching to a keyboard with a different layout. Annoying/frustrating at first, after a week you can care less. It's like the comparatively fucked up natural scrolling on macOS, when coming from windows, or whatever it's called. Your brain will accommodate.
istingray 5y ago
It's roughly comparable to one of the non-haptic trackpads on a Macbook Air (pre-2015 I believe?). For me, I'm willing to put up with it because Apple is a dead end given their new surveillance hobby.

melbourne_mat 5y ago

Tough sell given the M1 MacBook air is $800

RGamma 5y ago

No trackpoint :(

veidr 5y ago

I love System76, and I use and love Pop!_OS (despite the offensive and undignified name). I tried to buy their beefy Thelios desktop with wood paneling (but they don't ship to my country). But... on what planet is a 1080p screen still OK for a mid-range or higher laptop in 2021? For laptops, I've used Apples and Dells over the past 7 years and I don't think any of them were that low resolution. I want to buy their shit; I even bought their insanely expensive $300 keyboard just because I think they are awesome. But I wouldn't buy a 1080p laptop in this day and age for any price. Pop OS (as sane people call it) also happens to work fabulously on high resolution monitors! I run it on a 4-year-old 32" 8K Dell UP3218K monitor at 200% pixel doubling, and it looks fantastic — much better and way crisper text than any Mac (e.g., my work M1 Mac Mini with hyperexpensive 6K XDR Display or my 27" 5K iMac Pro). For that Dell display, 200% is perfect, but Reddit says fractional scaling also works great on Pop OS. So it's not like they have some technical reason they need to use blurry low-res displays. It's just kind of weird. I would absolutely buy this otherwise, but the weird retro display is a deal-breaker. (I don't give a shit about the off-center keyboard or numpad though, so I guess we all have our own individual deal-breakers....) As an aside: Pop OS is really awesome, though — a great distro for those of us who were always rooting for Linux, preferred open source and felt like we were the kind of person who wanted that approach to win out and would likely use Linux, but mainly ended up usually buying Macs for purposes of convenience and just getting our shit done. Pretty much works great and stays out of your way. :-D

jklinger410 5y ago
> (despite the offensive and undignified name) Would love to hear what is offensive and undignified about it. > But I wouldn't buy a 1080p laptop in this day and age for any price. Most laptops are 1080p (or less), but I guess you're allowed to have that opinion. --- Personally I feel opposite about them. I like their hardware, hate the OS. POP OS! is ugly, full stop. They'd be better off going with Arch or Fedora base so they can keep closer to modern GNOME and potentially offer other DEs easier. Every beta they ship for POP is super broken in one way or another, and I hate cosmic, so I rock Arch on it.
- veidr 5y ago