29 ms·

It is moves like this which show the tremendous impact of Tesla. The old automakers were never going to be the ones to push the switch to greener tech themselv

by slg 5y ago

It is moves like this which show the tremendous impact of Tesla. The old automakers were never going to be the ones to push the switch to greener tech themselves. Even the companies that we may have thought were forward looking a decade ago like Toyota are now showing that they had no plans to embrace cleaner vehicles as an overall company strategy. The industry needed an outsider to threaten the incumbents into actually changing.

bin_bash 5y ago
I wonder if Ford manages to get their sales numbers up if they may become a force like Tesla
- vel0city 5y ago
  As someone who was recently on the hunt for a Mach E, they need to get production numbers up. Mach E Premiums are 24 weeks backordered, dealerships often only have a mannequin to look at. I called around to several dealerships in my area to even find one to test drive, and I'm in a pretty massive metro area. Its still pretty early numbers-wise, but to me it seems they can't build them fast enough to satiate the already existing demand.
fossuser 5y ago
Toyota was still going on about how EVs were not viable and hydrogen fuel cells were the future while anyone who looked outside their window would see EVs all over the place. Elon's early responses to this remain true (grid already exists, people can charge at home, easier to build EV infrastructure, etc.) - there's been nearly zero progress in hydrogen fuel cells. Hybrids were a mediocre half-measure and hydrogen was a worse solution to the problem. Tesla proved this model despite constant criticism even after wild success. It's not a huge surprise Toyota is throwing their weight around to try to cheat out some legislative relevance rather than compete on product. Many companies being disrupted do that (see recent viasat story, US car dealerships, etc.) I hope they lose, imo they deserve it.
- weaksauce 5y ago
  until there are chargers for the masses or some kind of new tech comes along that can charge as fast as filling up the tank or the batteries can hold way more range than they do it is not going to work for the majority of people with cars. too many people can't plug in overnight to charge. electrics are superior for the people that they are superior for.
  - slg 5y ago
    >a Model 3 Long Range operating at peak efficiency can recover up to 75 miles of charge in 5 minutes and charge at rates of up to 1,000 miles per hour.[1] I agree we need more public chargers, but I don't think "chargers are too slow" is really a valid forward looking argument anymore. [1] - https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
      Faster charger are coming, too. Tesla already announced 300 kW https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/tesla-upgrading-supercharger-network-to-300-kw-faster-charging/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/tesla-upgrading-supercharger-... and Ionity is already offering 350 kW https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html But the most important thing is the curve, not the peak rate. It's improving fast https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-charging-range-test-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-charging... and will improve further with the 4680 cells next year.
    - throwawaysea 5y ago
      > I don't think "chargers are too slow" is really a valid forward looking argument anymore. The problem is how many cars can be serviced by a single charging center in a given amount of time. Think about a weekend with good weather, or holiday weekends, when many people are taking trips on the same days. Normally, because filling a gas tank takes 5-10 minutes, cars can cycle in and out of ubiquitous gas stations very quickly. The same isn't true for charging, at least with the current footprint of chargers out there, especially with differences in charging architectures.
tw600040 5y ago
I was of the same opinion and had respect for what Tesla stands for and what they do. Until I encountered Tesla Solar. The contracts these guys try to get you into makes Comcast or Exxon Mobil or medical insurance companies feel like saints.They have door to door salesmen who sell this to unsuspecting 80 year olds who don't even understand what they are signing up for There is a thing called PPA. Usual lease terms is for 20 years or more. No way to get out of them without signing your life away. They make you pay for what it generates, not what you use.. I had to walk away from a really good house just because it came with a Tesla Solar PPA..
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  Also sudden price increases after not delivering the order on time. It was posted on hn before.
- dawnerd 5y ago
  Pretty sure Tesla is/has moved away from those and they were simply a holdover from the solarcity days. I don't see it as an option anymore on the Tesla Solar site.
  - tw600040 5y ago
    What are they doing to those who are currently stuck with these horrible 20 year contracts? The one their door to door salesmen sold to unsuspecting seniors without properly explaining the lease terms? I know what they are doing. They are asking for 35K to get them out of the contract.
    - jahlove 5y ago
      are you in one of these contracts?
      - tw600040 5y ago
        The sellers of a house I gave an offer for is.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> are now showing that they had no plans to embrace cleaner vehicles as an overall company strategy. If you read the NYT article that is the source for this, though, that's not the whole story. The real issue is that Toyota placed a big bet on hydrogen, which turned out to be the wrong clean energy bet, and now they are caught flat-footed. It's like people who bet on Mesos and then later had to try to catch up because the world chose Kubernetes. It's not like those people were against "container orchestration", they just bet on the wrong tech.
- scsilver 5y ago
  I dont think hydrogen is the wrong bet, it just the mature evolution of the electric economy. Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size or charge as fast as hydrogen and we will need hydrogen for those applications that batteries cant handle, like driving across the country or powering trains on our current rail network. Furthermore, electricity cant be piped through our existing gas infrastructure. Hydrogen complements solar and batteries but I think solar and battery will get into consumer hands first. Consumers don't require the high density energy storage that hydrogen/oil allows.
  - mnadkvlb 5y ago
    Can you explain why would one power trains by hydrogen, when there are already electricty lines running over tracks ? I cannot imagine a case, Unless we dont trust the grid reliability. What am i missing here ?
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      There aren’t electricity lines running over all tracks. In particular freight is still often hauled by Diesel engines.
      - mnadkvlb 5y ago
        oh, that makes sense. Its been a long time i saw diesel engines and probably thought its a past thing. Apparently not :)
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Its not Tesla that is pushing electric (they're basically irrelevant number wise) it is the Paris climate accord. CO2 emissions need to go down fast and governments are panicking.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  > Its not Tesla that is pushing electric (they're basically irrelevant number wise) it is the Paris climate accord. What? BEV were non existent before Tesla. Tesla is and has always been the leader in this space. Mary D. Nichols (chair of CARB from 2007 to 2020) credited Tesla for the adoption of EV and said they needed Tesla to enforce regulations (without any EV manufacturers, the state could not actually enforce limits since there would be no alternative). And because things were moving in California, other countries said they should speed things up and not just rely on hybrids as the goal. Since then, politicians are simply watching the adoption curve of EV, doing projections and announcing bans... right when they will not be necessary (because EV will already have replaced ICE). Watch what's happening in California https://cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/plugin-car-sales-california-2021-q1-source-veloz-c.png https://cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/plugin-car-sales-califo... how is this explained by the l'accord de Paris?
some-guy 5y ago
I have many issues with Tesla and Elon Musk as companies, and they are no saints. But I cannot deny the impact that their cars have had on the industry. An electric-car startup has nothing to lose from shifting from ICE vehicles--every other automaker does.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  Find me a saint who propelled car electrification forward 30 years in the space of 10 and we'll talk.
distribot 5y ago
This phenomenon is probably why systems that protect the status quo produce less innovation. Even though it might behoove them, and they have the resources to, the industry leaders are less inclined (because of inertia?) to resist ground breaking paradigms. I guess it kind of makes sense for them. It's high risk/high reward and it will take a scrappy new company to try it.
kova12 5y ago
Tesla is not as good as you might think. It has huge following, and I respect what they are trying to do, but the way they treat people is abominable: - they go fast and in process neglect safety. My personal friend had been stuck on the intersection because his model 3 started automatically updating system software - they actively block any third party repair shops from fixing cars that broke outside warranty period without providing alternative. Specific case was when they quoted a guy $16K when a small part underneath car was broken off. Third party repaired it for $700. - they censor critics. Namely, they disable Rich Rebuilds's account with $200,000 worth of referral bonuses I would go with Toyota instead of Tesla anytime. In fact I did go with RAV4 Prime as my vehicle of choice. Toyota's stance on fully battery powered car makes absolute sense. We need more conservative policies on electric vehicles, where consumer is protected
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  > My personal friend had been stuck on the intersection because his model 3 started automatically updating system software (X) Doubt I'm going to be blunt here. I think either you or your friend are lying. Teslas don't automatically update system software. It tells you when there's an update available and allows you to choose when to install it. Once you tell it to start installing the update, first off, it gives you two minutes to cancel the update. Once it begins, you can't drive until the update finishes. In short, the car will NEVER interrupt a drive to install an update.
  - kova12 5y ago
    He stopped at the red light, and the car started updating. I guess he didn't get stuck on the intersection itself, just on the traffic light before it
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      The only way that would POSSIBLY happen is if the car said an update was available, and he clicked "Install" rather than closing the notification. Even if he clicked "Install", a 2-minute timer would have appeared to give him time to cancel the update. Both the initial notification and the window showing the 2-minute timer tell you that you will not be able to drive while the update is installing. So either your friend is lying or he's an idiot.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
RickJWagner 5y ago
You've got some valid points there. I'll say this for Toyota-- I've owned a Prius and 3 Lexus, all bought used. Those cars simply don't wear out. I'm sold on the idea of Toyota quality. So if they're behind, I hope the catch up quickly. I want to buy an electric car, but I want one that lasts like a Toyota.

by slg 5y ago

bin_bash 5y ago

I wonder if Ford manages to get their sales numbers up if they may become a force like Tesla

vel0city 5y ago
As someone who was recently on the hunt for a Mach E, they need to get production numbers up. Mach E Premiums are 24 weeks backordered, dealerships often only have a mannequin to look at. I called around to several dealerships in my area to even find one to test drive, and I'm in a pretty massive metro area. Its still pretty early numbers-wise, but to me it seems they can't build them fast enough to satiate the already existing demand.

fossuser 5y ago

Toyota was still going on about how EVs were not viable and hydrogen fuel cells were the future while anyone who looked outside their window would see EVs all over the place. Elon's early responses to this remain true (grid already exists, people can charge at home, easier to build EV infrastructure, etc.) - there's been nearly zero progress in hydrogen fuel cells. Hybrids were a mediocre half-measure and hydrogen was a worse solution to the problem. Tesla proved this model despite constant criticism even after wild success. It's not a huge surprise Toyota is throwing their weight around to try to cheat out some legislative relevance rather than compete on product. Many companies being disrupted do that (see recent viasat story, US car dealerships, etc.) I hope they lose, imo they deserve it.

weaksauce 5y ago
until there are chargers for the masses or some kind of new tech comes along that can charge as fast as filling up the tank or the batteries can hold way more range than they do it is not going to work for the majority of people with cars. too many people can't plug in overnight to charge. electrics are superior for the people that they are superior for.
- slg 5y ago
  >a Model 3 Long Range operating at peak efficiency can recover up to 75 miles of charge in 5 minutes and charge at rates of up to 1,000 miles per hour.[1] I agree we need more public chargers, but I don't think "chargers are too slow" is really a valid forward looking argument anymore. [1] - https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    Faster charger are coming, too. Tesla already announced 300 kW https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/tesla-upgrading-supercharger-network-to-300-kw-faster-charging/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/tesla-upgrading-supercharger-... and Ionity is already offering 350 kW https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html But the most important thing is the curve, not the peak rate. It's improving fast https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-charging-range-test-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-charging... and will improve further with the 4680 cells next year.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    > I don't think "chargers are too slow" is really a valid forward looking argument anymore. The problem is how many cars can be serviced by a single charging center in a given amount of time. Think about a weekend with good weather, or holiday weekends, when many people are taking trips on the same days. Normally, because filling a gas tank takes 5-10 minutes, cars can cycle in and out of ubiquitous gas stations very quickly. The same isn't true for charging, at least with the current footprint of chargers out there, especially with differences in charging architectures.

tw600040 5y ago

I was of the same opinion and had respect for what Tesla stands for and what they do. Until I encountered Tesla Solar. The contracts these guys try to get you into makes Comcast or Exxon Mobil or medical insurance companies feel like saints.They have door to door salesmen who sell this to unsuspecting 80 year olds who don't even understand what they are signing up for There is a thing called PPA. Usual lease terms is for 20 years or more. No way to get out of them without signing your life away. They make you pay for what it generates, not what you use.. I had to walk away from a really good house just because it came with a Tesla Solar PPA..

yawaworht1978 5y ago
Also sudden price increases after not delivering the order on time. It was posted on hn before.
dawnerd 5y ago
Pretty sure Tesla is/has moved away from those and they were simply a holdover from the solarcity days. I don't see it as an option anymore on the Tesla Solar site.
- tw600040 5y ago
  What are they doing to those who are currently stuck with these horrible 20 year contracts? The one their door to door salesmen sold to unsuspecting seniors without properly explaining the lease terms? I know what they are doing. They are asking for 35K to get them out of the contract.
  - jahlove 5y ago
    are you in one of these contracts?
    - tw600040 5y ago
      The sellers of a house I gave an offer for is.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

> are now showing that they had no plans to embrace cleaner vehicles as an overall company strategy. If you read the NYT article that is the source for this, though, that's not the whole story. The real issue is that Toyota placed a big bet on hydrogen, which turned out to be the wrong clean energy bet, and now they are caught flat-footed. It's like people who bet on Mesos and then later had to try to catch up because the world chose Kubernetes. It's not like those people were against "container orchestration", they just bet on the wrong tech.

scsilver 5y ago
I dont think hydrogen is the wrong bet, it just the mature evolution of the electric economy. Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size or charge as fast as hydrogen and we will need hydrogen for those applications that batteries cant handle, like driving across the country or powering trains on our current rail network. Furthermore, electricity cant be piped through our existing gas infrastructure. Hydrogen complements solar and batteries but I think solar and battery will get into consumer hands first. Consumers don't require the high density energy storage that hydrogen/oil allows.
- mnadkvlb 5y ago
  Can you explain why would one power trains by hydrogen, when there are already electricty lines running over tracks ? I cannot imagine a case, Unless we dont trust the grid reliability. What am i missing here ?
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    There aren’t electricity lines running over all tracks. In particular freight is still often hauled by Diesel engines.
    - mnadkvlb 5y ago
      oh, that makes sense. Its been a long time i saw diesel engines and probably thought its a past thing. Apparently not :)

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Its not Tesla that is pushing electric (they're basically irrelevant number wise) it is the Paris climate accord. CO2 emissions need to go down fast and governments are panicking.

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
> Its not Tesla that is pushing electric (they're basically irrelevant number wise) it is the Paris climate accord. What? BEV were non existent before Tesla. Tesla is and has always been the leader in this space. Mary D. Nichols (chair of CARB from 2007 to 2020) credited Tesla for the adoption of EV and said they needed Tesla to enforce regulations (without any EV manufacturers, the state could not actually enforce limits since there would be no alternative). And because things were moving in California, other countries said they should speed things up and not just rely on hybrids as the goal. Since then, politicians are simply watching the adoption curve of EV, doing projections and announcing bans... right when they will not be necessary (because EV will already have replaced ICE). Watch what's happening in California https://cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/plugin-car-sales-california-2021-q1-source-veloz-c.png https://cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/plugin-car-sales-califo... how is this explained by the l'accord de Paris?

some-guy 5y ago

I have many issues with Tesla and Elon Musk as companies, and they are no saints. But I cannot deny the impact that their cars have had on the industry. An electric-car startup has nothing to lose from shifting from ICE vehicles--every other automaker does.

robertlagrant 5y ago
Find me a saint who propelled car electrification forward 30 years in the space of 10 and we'll talk.

distribot 5y ago

This phenomenon is probably why systems that protect the status quo produce less innovation. Even though it might behoove them, and they have the resources to, the industry leaders are less inclined (because of inertia?) to resist ground breaking paradigms. I guess it kind of makes sense for them. It's high risk/high reward and it will take a scrappy new company to try it.

kova12 5y ago

Tesla is not as good as you might think. It has huge following, and I respect what they are trying to do, but the way they treat people is abominable: - they go fast and in process neglect safety. My personal friend had been stuck on the intersection because his model 3 started automatically updating system software - they actively block any third party repair shops from fixing cars that broke outside warranty period without providing alternative. Specific case was when they quoted a guy $16K when a small part underneath car was broken off. Third party repaired it for $700. - they censor critics. Namely, they disable Rich Rebuilds's account with $200,000 worth of referral bonuses I would go with Toyota instead of Tesla anytime. In fact I did go with RAV4 Prime as my vehicle of choice. Toyota's stance on fully battery powered car makes absolute sense. We need more conservative policies on electric vehicles, where consumer is protected

Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
> My personal friend had been stuck on the intersection because his model 3 started automatically updating system software (X) Doubt I'm going to be blunt here. I think either you or your friend are lying. Teslas don't automatically update system software. It tells you when there's an update available and allows you to choose when to install it. Once you tell it to start installing the update, first off, it gives you two minutes to cancel the update. Once it begins, you can't drive until the update finishes. In short, the car will NEVER interrupt a drive to install an update.
- kova12 5y ago
  He stopped at the red light, and the car started updating. I guess he didn't get stuck on the intersection itself, just on the traffic light before it
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    The only way that would POSSIBLY happen is if the car said an update was available, and he clicked "Install" rather than closing the notification. Even if he clicked "Install", a 2-minute timer would have appeared to give him time to cancel the update. Both the initial notification and the window showing the 2-minute timer tell you that you will not be able to drive while the update is installing. So either your friend is lying or he's an idiot.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

RickJWagner 5y ago

You've got some valid points there. I'll say this for Toyota-- I've owned a Prius and 3 Lexus, all bought used. Those cars simply don't wear out. I'm sold on the idea of Toyota quality. So if they're behind, I hope the catch up quickly. I want to buy an electric car, but I want one that lasts like a Toyota.