36 ms·

I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

• codecalec 5y ago
  This requirement just does not make sense to me. Why would Microsoft even have this requirement? Do they want to force users into an account so it is easier to lead them into Office packages? It can't be for greater data profiles on users since they could do this in other less explicit ways. Microsoft just doesn't have the ecosystem like Apple to make this worthwhile from their point of view or the users.
  • romanovcode 5y ago
    OneDrive, Edge (if you're into it) and setting sync. What do you mean it does not makes sense? I am not using MS login myself but saying it doesn't make sense is ridiculous. It's exactly same as what Apple does. As for people who say it's required on Windows: It's not. You can create local account during setup, the link is there once you cancel your online login. It's hidden at first, but it's there. You don't even have to disconnect your internet or anything like that. Shit move by MS (dark UI pattern) but it is totally possible.
    • iwasakabukiman 5y ago
      I can set up and sign in to MacOS without using my Apple ID though.
      • jptech 5y ago
        Correct me if i'm wrong but I think you still need to go online to finish the setup process?
        • skohan 5y ago
          I'm pretty sure you don't need a network connection to set up a mac unless this has changed in recent releases.
        • vetinari 5y ago
          No, you don't need to. There is zero-touch enterprise provisioning available, that requires you to be connected to a suitably configured local network (if learns about what it needs from dhcp tags), but this is not something that normal users need to be concerned about. For a non-MDM-managed mac, you can do everything offline just fine. Or you can be online, if you do not want to use iCloud account (I'm not using it either), you can finish the OOBE wizard and everything will be just like the user wants.
    • thelibrarian 5y ago
      No, it is not. Apple does encourage setting up/associating an Apple ID account, it is not a requirement.
      • romanovcode 5y ago
        God damn it how many times I have to say it: it's not required on Windows as well! You click cancel, then click tiny link at bottom to create local account. You are talking about things you have no idea about man.
        • lovelyviking 5y ago
          It seems you'll have to say it many times more untill this dark pattern will be removed. Apple uses the same teqchinque to trick you into using iCloud making it look like requrement for use your iPhone. For my taste it is cheating and dsigusting because even when you know it can be avoided you should work hard to find it especially when you are in a hurry and this trouble is by "design".
        • Brendinooo 5y ago
          The article is saying that it's going to be mandatory for the new home version of Windows.
        • Bedon292 5y ago
          In the latest releases of Win 10 Home, at least once you have connected to the network, that button does not exist. They prompt you to enter your WiFi info first, then ask you to log in. And once you have entered the WiFi info you cannot get back to that screen and remove it until after you have set everything up. At least not without a factory reset, which I didn't actually try. They force you to log in with a MS account during the initial setup then once you are in you can add a local admin account. Then you can log into it and remove the MS account. Its absolutely horrible. I have been dealing with this a lot lately, had several laptops that were Home and could not get in to them without the MS account. Its a huge pain.
        • simiones 5y ago
          You can say it however many times you want, but you are wrong. You would have been right had you been talking about Windows 10 Home ~1-2 years ago. But today, Windows 10 Home only gives you the option to login with a local account if you are offline (no cable, no WiFi) or you fail to login to an MS account multiple times. Only in one of those cases do they give you a small, relatively hidden option to use the local account.
    • CannisterFlux 5y ago
      Apparently in Windows 11 they removed that loophole, and now you require an internet connection at least once during setup to proceed.
      • naikrovek 5y ago
        Windows 11 Home only. Pro, Enterprise, and Education don't have this requirement.
        • dividedbyzero 5y ago
          Are any of these freely sold to individuals, or do you only get them as part of larger deals?
          • vel0city 5y ago
            Pro is sold to individuals and you can easily get a laptop with a Pro license from an OEM.
            • dividedbyzero 5y ago
              Seems like there's also Pro for Workstations. Also, full disk encryption seems to only be available in Pro?
              • naikrovek 5y ago
                Yes. Well, BitLocker is in Pro, Pro for Workstations and Enterprise. Same for Hyper-V, if that matters to you; not available in Home. Home edition is for non-commercial use. I don't know if that's in the EULA or not, but that's the use case that Home is meant for. Pro and higher are for work use cases, and features add on as you go up the line. Pro for Workstations and Enterprise support slightly different feature sets, IIRC. Creating new ReFS filesystems is only available on Pro for Workstations, for example.
                • 5y ago
    • toast0 5y ago
      On Windows 10 Home, in latest releases, you actually need to disconnect the cable to get the move on without a Microsoft account links to show up. Word on the street is Windows 11 is going to make them actually mandatory on Home, instead of only pretend mandatory with lots of prompting.
      • oauea 5y ago
        Unless it changed very recently you can also enter a bogus email address several times. Not that that is much better.
  • johnchristopher 5y ago
    They used to have things like passport.net way back then, their blogging platform was also tied to a hotmail account, etc.
  • addicted 5y ago
    To be honest, I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. Forcing them to log in with a MS account allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. For one thing, both those devices pretty much require an online account as well. And they contain far more sensitive data. But more importantly, they also provide frictionless backups, syncing, and a whole host of online services as table stakes, and MS wants to do the same.
    • fsloth 5y ago
      "I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. ... allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. This. 100 times. The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast.
      • blendergeek 5y ago
        Android devices give the users this choice. Android devices are definitely made for regular consumers. Already, on Windows 10, all normal users used an MS account. The only way to get around it was to set up a computer without internet and then click some non obvious buttons while the computer begged for an MS account. If the goal was making it easy for normal users to have an MS account, Windows 10 succeeded. The change here is that power users no longer have the choice to not use a cloud account. This change provides no benefit to the average user.
      • hulitu 5y ago
        > This. 100 times. > The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. (Smart)phones and tablets are not computing devices any more than a refrigerator. You cannot do any real work on them. Even finding a text editor, let alone editing, is a challenge. Other stuff like SW development or CAD/CAE is the same. > Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. Nothing to do with it. Just pure control and data collection. > We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast. We are back in the 1960 with disabled user interfaces. When you need to search the internet to disable dark patterns is the same like reading the source code to check with which options to invoke the shell.
  • discordance 5y ago
    You need a Microsoft account to log into Teams, which is integrated into Win11. Teams seems like a big bet for Microsoft, so that's one reason.
    • HelloNurse 5y ago
      Hopefully it will have to be disintegrated for enterprise customers who aren't going to use Microsoft accounts, and presumably for everybody. Antitrust prosecution might also help.
  • heresie-dabord 5y ago
    This is how Chromebooks work. A Google account is needed to sign-in. The motive is not mysterious -- I don't believe it is security, it is pushing free services to collect more data. We all know that selling people's data is deliriously profitable. Of course, people will create less-attributable accounts.
    • spijdar 5y ago
      Ironically, even Chromebooks allow you to use a guest account, while you absolutely must use a Microsoft account on Win11.
  • MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
    I suspect they are testing the waters and see how far they can go with W11. If there is enough outrage about a particular issue, they will simply drop it.
  • adolfojp 5y ago
    In addition to what others have said, Microsoft accounts back up your full disk encryption keys to the cloud. Microsoft ships Bitlocker with every OS and given the TPM requirements one can speculate that it will be turned on by default on every Windows 11 computer. I've seen an increase of tech support posts where people boot up their computer after an update or motherboard change and they're asked for Bitlocker decryption keys and they don't know what those are. Their data is lost forever. Their computers are bricked. The experience of working in IT and modding online tech communities has taught me that computer literacy is very poor even among those who use computers every day. They're just appliances to most people. And this is OK. The problem is that the people who can't figure out what a right click does will never figure out how to back up their full disk encryption keys or even what they are. Forcing a Microsoft account on Home SKUs eliminates this problem.
• oolonthegreat 5y ago
  hopefully shady practices like this will drive more and more people to the light side of free OSs :)
  • philipov 5y ago
    When Pandora's Box was opened, all the evils of the world were released and burst out into the world, leaving only hope. Hope is the evil that stayed behind, close to people's hearts.
• ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  I don't really get the selective targeted hate. I don't like this move either but you need an account to use a Mac, iPhone or Android and nobody seems to fuss about it. So why only target Microsoft for doing what their competitors have been doing for a along time and why not protest against Apple and Google for making this practice the norm in the first place through their monopoly in the mobile space?
  • Ducki 5y ago
    Actually, you don't need an iCloud account to use a mac. Neither do you in order to use an iPhone.
    • salamandersauce 5y ago
      But you do lose a lot of functionality. Especially on the iPhone as there is no real way to add apps without it.
      • BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
        This is an uncelebrated (accidental) security feature. One of the most secure "burner" devices there are, is an iPhone or iPad with no iCloud configuration. Good for semi-anonymous browsing for instance, also because fingerprinting of the browser looks the same as a bunch of other iOS devices.
      • astrange 5y ago
        App Store and iCloud accounts are separate.
        • salamandersauce 5y ago
          This is a distinction with almost no difference. You're still trusting Apple with essentially same set of data.
          • 5y ago
• GekkePrutser 5y ago
  This is really a dealbreaker for me, much more than the TPM and recent processor stuff. There must be some workaround :( Edit: Thanks @yourusername, I had missed the part where it's only for the home edition. I'm glad there is still a way.
  • ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    The workaround is to use Linux :)
    • GekkePrutser 5y ago
      I only use my Windows PC for gaming now, where it's kinda unavoidable.
      • Freak_NL 5y ago
        Keep an eye out for games supported on Proton (Steam's Wine facilitation) on protondb.com. In a mere five years gaming on Linux went from a solid selection of native games, to those, plus an impressive amount of high profile titles that just work out of the box (often with better performance on Linux). Of course there may be one or two titles that tie you to Windows, or perhaps multiplayer specific gaming related software, but if you are flexible in that regard gaming on Linux is just… good.
        • maltalex 5y ago
          "just work out of the box" is an overstatement. I ran Manjaro for about half a year recently, including using it for gaming. Very few games actually worked out of the box for me, including games with so called "native" Linux support. I ran into multiple games with "official" Linux support that were simply broken or became broken by an update. Some of those that weren't broken had significant performance issues (that Windows on the same machine didn't have). Is it possible to game on Linux? Yes. But at the very least it requires fiddling. As much as I love Linux, gaming is just a lot easier on Windows.
• joelbondurant 5y ago
  Sounds like Apple, computing appliances for grandmas.
• glandium 5y ago
  You already need a Microsoft account to enable FDE on Windows 10 Home.
• PaulHoule 5y ago
  Until the Microsoft account was introduced I could never could on authentication working to mount SMB shares. My fear is that Microsoft is going to wreck it all in a fit of mindlessness. I wrote them a letter when they were in danger of impulsively stealing TikTok. So many of us depend on their products that we’d be devastated if they destroyed their ecosystem for no good reason. (Someday Microsoft may need to pick a fight with the CCP, but it had better do so for a good reason.)
  • lovelyviking 5y ago
    >So many of us depend on their products that we’d be devastated if they destroyed their ecosystem Don't you think you are already devastated by that dependency?
  • jraph 5y ago
    > So many of us depend on their products that we’d be devastated if they destroyed their ecosystem for no good reason This is what free software people have been warning against for decades now, and yet governments and big structures still willingly give their hands to be tied instead of allocating some funds to the development of solutions that don't have this problem and would be far more cost-effective in the end. When will the world wake up?
    • scrollaway 5y ago
      I'm a FOSS advocate. Please don't make it sound like that. There's plenty of issues with FOSS, including funding. Like, what we also warn about the fact that a majority of people on earth directly or indirectly depend on projects like, I dunno, coreutils, openssh and what not which receive fuck-all funding.
      • pessimizer 5y ago
        You're replying to a message asking why we don't fund FOSS by saying the problem with FOSS is a lack of funding.
    • iso1631 5y ago
• haolez 5y ago
  I wonder if ReactOS[0] will eventually catch-up in business environments where this kind of bullshit is less/not acceptable. [0] https://reactos.org/ https://reactos.org/
  • phendrenad2 5y ago
    It seems as though this bullshit is perfectly acceptable in business environments. Hell, many businesses are mandating that all employees have a Microsoft account anyway (Office 365). Why would business environments care that their workers' have to make a Microsoft account to log into their work laptops? IT surely has remote control of it and can get them access if they get locked out. The people who are MOST upset about this are the HN crowd. We're control freaks who are used to Linux, and the thought of Microsoft making us log into their filthy servers to run our own PCs maddens us. So yeah, ReactOS may become a viable techie OS at some point. I encourage everyone to contribute to it if possible, as it is open-source.
    • haolez 5y ago
      That's true when everything is working as expected. But when things go bad (e.g. you can't login to your machine), business do care. My business depends a lot on Azure AD. A couple months ago, Azure AD went down for several hours worldwide. It was a wakeup call that SLAs can be broken and that the vendors are usually not transparent regarding the uptime of their platforms (the status pages are always green!).
    • gyulai 5y ago
      > Why would business environments care that their workers' have to make a Microsoft account to log into their work laptops? One case in point would be: If that business happens to be located in the E.U. where GDPR prevents employers from exposing their employees to privacy liabilities of this sort. For example GDPR is already a major stumbling block to the adoption of Office 365 by european business, which is why many are using ancient versions of office, microsoft-alternatives, or are using Office 365 but without being able to really sleep all that soundly, hoping that employees won't sue and privacy regulators won't act. The legal position, however, is quite clear.
• _trampeltier 5y ago
  There are also isolated networks in industry. Wonder how such things should work in future.
  • extropy 5y ago
    There will always be an enterprise and LTS versions without online requirement
    • cm2187 5y ago
      No our nuclear facilities are running on Home editions!
  • Animux 5y ago
    The article only talks about Windows 11 Home. There might be exceptions for a Pro version.
• lbriner 5y ago
  It is sadly part of a dark pattern called "stickiness". You can dress it up as functionally useful or even important but ultimately it is about companies wanting to create enough of a dependency that you have to continue using them, which is anti-competitive. Gone are the days where you bought something from a shop with no stickiness other than good service brought you back. Now there are far too many Marketing Managers who see stickiness as a win, even though the win is only to the supplier and not to the customer. It is similar to those web sites who ask you whether you want "notifications" from them in your OS! Nope.
  • OhHiMarkos 5y ago
    I would love to see a stickyness map for the top companies that apply these patterns to their customers.
  • swiley 5y ago
    > bought something from a shop with no stickiness If you want this you can still have it, you just need to follow a simple rule: Absolutely no non-free non community maintained software ever period.
    • bostonpete 5y ago
      That rule is simple to state, but damn near impossible to actually execute. I can't imagine the hoops you'd have to jump through to have a cell phone following this simple rule. I appreciate the push towards open source -- obviously a lot of good has come of it, but I'll happily take stickiness for convenience in many situations.
      • swiley 5y ago
        > I can't imagine the hoops you'd have to jump through to have a cell phone following this simple rule. It was hard, thankfully pine64 exists and it's no longer any more difficult than following on the desktop.
        • 5y ago
• sandworm101 5y ago
  Every stupid mistake by Microsoft is yet another great day for linux.
  • qwerty456127 5y ago
    But also a challenge. Linux also has to introduce purely Microsoft/Google/whatever-account log-on (without explicit local user log-in preceding it) as an option because this is what many zoomers expect. You just give them a new computer, they sign-in with their account and start doing their job. Businesses they run also expect this when ordering computers/integration from you. The open source world actually needs to implement this + a decent offline alternative to Alexa or be left behind. I will never want to use a Microsoft/whatever account either but other people will.
    • nlitened 5y ago
      > You just give them a new computer, they sign-in with their account and start doing their job They can start doing their job without signing in with any accounts, one step fewer.
      • adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
        nah the problem is the bovine masses have everything synced to their microsoft account now. they dont even really know how the file system works just log in to your ms account on a new laptop and wait a few hours while everything syncs up via onedrive and its like every computer is your home computer
        • qwerty456127 5y ago
          > they dont even really know how the file system works I wouldn't say this is a problem in the bad sense. That's Ok. Almost nobody (except low-level system engineers) really knew how the file system works ever. I always believed it's unreasonable to ask people to learn about file system internals. What I really consider a problem which should never have happened and should be fixed ASAP is Windows hiding file name extensions by default. And people having an idea of how a DOC file and a TXT file are different, what do TXT and HTML files have in common and why zipping MP4 videos doesn't save space feel a blessing for me to meet among non-devs. > just log in to your ms account on a new laptop and wait a few hours while everything syncs up via onedrive and its like every computer is your home computer And this is a convenience we have to reproduce. It almost is there - you can add a Microsoft account in Ubuntu but it still requires an extra step of setting a local user up and signing in with it first.
• villgax 5y ago
  Imagine if you are on a remote island with no internet, you will just pray for a starlink to pass overhead or be assigned you your sky in order to re-format a system lol
• ttt0 5y ago
  I already did the mistake of using Google account in Chrome back in the day and it turned out that they were stealing my saved passwords without any warning.
• null_object 5y ago
  Almost crazier than this is the need to have a Microsoft account in order for your kids to be able to play certain games together on their Nintendo Switch that have been bought for 50-plus dollars, and have no indication on the package that having a Microsoft account is a prerequisite for collaborative play.
  • jahller 5y ago
    could you tell me which games so i can avoid them
    • null_object 5y ago
      > could you tell me which games so i can avoid them In this case it was the Switch version of Minecraft. No indication whatsoever that (what I consider to be) a totally unrelated signup would be needed to collaboratively play the (very expensive) Switch game. In my case, a bunch of kids needed to wait while I attempted to create a Microsoft login with my private email address (yes I buckled - unfortunately explaining privacy to an expectant and impatient crowd of eight-year olds isn't realistic). But then I found halfway through the process, that I'd somehow used the same email for Skype many years ago, and the password was naturally long-forgotten - blowing that signup attempt. Not fun to need to create a new email account, and go through the whole signup and login flow all over again, just to play a game that's been sold as a self-contained entity for a totally different non-Microsoft platform.
  • abraxas 5y ago
    Microsoft makes little children cry. They did the same kind of nonsense to Minecraft Pocket Edition and later fucked up their login process causing my 8 year old to lose all his Minecraft worlds. I hate that company so much for so many reasons.
    • skohan 5y ago
      What Microsoft has done with Minecraft is so gross. I installed it recently after not playing for maybe a decade so I could try the RTX support, and I just had to shake my head at how packed the home screen is with micro-transactions now. This started as a very simple, creative game for kids, and now the only way to play is to enter through the gift-shop. Minecraft was already one of the best selling games of all time. Is it really necessary to constantly expose 8 year old kids to aggressive marketing to maximize profits?
• itronitron 5y ago
  I wiped a brand new Windows laptop just last week and installed Linux because Windows 'S' Mode wouldn't let me install Firefox without a Windows account. Very happy with the change to linux and I don't have to worry about accidentally saving personal documents to the OneDrive cloud. Product companies should take note, I'd probably own a few more electronics if they didn't require that consumers 'create an account' or associate an email address in order to use the thing.
  • rsp1984 5y ago
    You can get out of "S Mode", a feature which is absurdly hidden in the MS Store [1]. [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of-s-mode-in-windows-10-4f56d9be-99ec-6983-119f-031bfb28a307 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of...
    • input_sh 5y ago
      I think what the parent comment was aiming at is that you need a Windows account to follow that. I don't think you can use the store without an account, therefore not able to escape the S mode, therefore not able to install Firefox.
    • meowster 5y ago
      My understanding last time I tried, was that you need a Microsoft Account to switch out of S Mode.
  • nightski 5y ago
    That makes no sense. Why would you use 'S' mode if you didn't want to be connected? It's specifically a version that does not store data/apps locally, so of course it's going to require an account...
    • opencl 5y ago
      S mode does store data/apps locally, it just prevents you from running any software that isn't from the Microsoft Store. They were using S mode because it's impossible to disable without logging into a Microsoft account first.
• jp0d 5y ago
  I shudder at the prospect of going back to using a PC! I've been using a Mac from work. My wife and I are both pissed off at Microsoft for doing this to our home PC. I built that PC for her to do some Photoshop work. So I can't really get rid of Windows. If she switches to a Mac, I will happily forget about the money wasted on that Windows license and format that hard drive and put a Linux on it immediately.
• brushfoot 5y ago
  This makes me want to move back to Linux, but last time I tried Ubuntu (2020) there were lots of little annoyances. Off the top of my head: - Screen tearing. I Googled around and installed the Nvidia drivers for my laptop, but it never went away. - No detection of tablet mode. - No auto screen rotation. - Slow Blender rendering. Probably a PEBKAC with my driver setup, but it just worked in Windows and it was easy to select Nvidia vs. integrated graphics. - MS Teams shared my desktop as a giant blur. - LibreOffice is still bad and incompatible with what my company does in Office, though that may matter less with Office Online. Is there a distro that Just Works more so than Ubuntu? I'm sure I could have solved all of the above with enough time and effort, but I'm not in a good position to do that right now.
  • FpUser 5y ago
    Snap alone is enough for me not to use new Ubuntu. I am sticking to Linux Mint for now for my own desktop setups. Servers are a bit different story.
  • hawthornio 5y ago
    Elementary OS is positioning itself a Linux distro that Just Works TM, but I haven’t used it anywhere near as much as Ubuntu/Gnome so I can’t definitively say.
    • pjerem 5y ago
      For what it's worth, Elementary OS is really a cool OS as long as you don't expect to be able to customize it. Its UI and ergonomics are really different from the Gnome/KDE/XFCE and is really consciously designed. The trade of is that you have to love it or hate it because you can barely change anything, but it deserves to be loved. I'm back to Windows for an undetermined span of time but I'll gladly reinstall ElementaryOS as soon as I can probably pay for it.
      • forgotpwd16 5y ago
        How is it really different from GNOME? The interface looks like modified GNOME, the apps look similar to their GNOME counterparts, and they even refer GNOME in their HIG.
• w4rh4wk5 5y ago
  Fun fact, password for my Microsoft account sits in my password manager. If I can't log into my PC, I can't access that password. And no, I am not going to remember that, or change it to something simpler. (Yes I know about entropy and correct horse battery staple!)
  • fart32 5y ago
    Same here. If I ever loose access to all my devices at once, I'm not logging back.
  • kyrra 5y ago
    This is why I haven't taken the dive either. Though, is this why Microsoft crested Hello? https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/sign-in-to-your-microsoft-account-with-windows-hello-or-a-security-key-800a8c01-6b61-49f5-0660-c2159bea4d84 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/sign-in-to-your-...
    • w4rh4wk5 5y ago
      Might be, I don't know. But I am not going to use biometrics either, for various reasons.
      • fart32 5y ago
        Would you mind sharing few of them? I use fingerprint reader on my phone and laptop, is there a reason I shouldn't? Face recognition is something I have a problem with. I don't like cameras, especially those you cannot unplug.
        • invisiblewasabi 5y ago
          Biometrics are typically immutable. If your password gets compromised, you can simply change it. You can't change a fingerprint.
          • jwalgenbach 5y ago
• streamofdigits 5y ago
  the confusion and distress starts with assuming its "your own pc". for at least a decade now the winning and profitable design pattern wants user devices turning into thin clients. the chromebook-ification of computing if you wish, or its X-terminalization [0] for somewhat older people [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_terminal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_terminal
  • Ygg2 5y ago
    But if my client is thin, why would I buy hardware? I.e. this runs counter to hardware makers goals.
    • streamofdigits 5y ago
      they switch towards selling hardware to datacenters
      • Ygg2 5y ago
        Assuming they all can. Still, that presupposed we will be able to connect to the datacenters in the future.
        • streamofdigits 5y ago
          to be honest I suspect everybody (including Microsoft) got wrong-footed by the mobile explosion. this redefined what personal computing means by placing simpler devices in the hands of billions. maybe its just a matter of time before the pendulum swings back and we get really cool hardware repatriated to homes / desktops offering features that would be suboptimal in a thin client setup (due to latency, privacy etc)
  • Arwill 5y ago
    Windows is my offline desktop OS. I keep it around specifically because i want it to be that way. I'm fine with a locked down Android phone, as that is a different use-case. Microsoft already failed with its locked-down ARM Windows version once. If the users wanted such an Windows OS, it would have not failed.
• 1337turtle 5y ago
  If you use Windows and assume you will have any form of privacy or control over the operating system, you are going to have a bad time. Switch to Linux or be okay with Microsoft spying on you. Those are the choices.
  • cutler 5y ago
    Or a Hackintosh.
    • forgotpwd16 5y ago
      Then you'll have Apple spying on you. You just swapped one megacorp for another.
  • ubermonkey 5y ago
    Well, there is MacOS, but that would probably require new hardware.
    • okamiueru 5y ago
      MacOS is the uncontested king of spying. It literally logs every single executable you run, when you run it, and where you run it from. And it shares this data with no court order as part of PRISM. https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/
      • ubermonkey 5y ago
        I mean, I get it's important at HN to whine about Apple, but your pithy summary is not an accurate description of what the sneak.berlin author describes AT ALL. Not that you care, of course.
  • exceptione 5y ago
    I have to second this. The questions one has to answer: What price do I set on my privacy and control? vs What price do I want to pay for inconveniences? Privacy is a value (abstract) and inconvenience is a concrete experience (concrete). Many people find it easier to reason about concrete experiences then about abstract notions.
• qalmakka 5y ago
  I agree. No matter how much Microsoft tries, given they can't remove local accounts altogether I will refuse to log into a Microsoft account for as long as it is humanely possible. Same for secure boot.
• nickjj 5y ago
  I know the post is about Windows 11 but I installed Windows 10 for someone on a laptop about 2 months ago and it had the most crazy dark pattern I've ever seen to be able to proceed past the installation screen without a Microsoft account. Short of not connecting to the internet first the only way I saw where it was possible to create an offline account was to first attempt to sign in using an incorrect password with a hotmail account. It was only after failing that where an option appeared to create a local account. It doesn't stop there too. Now once in a while when they turn the machine on and reach the login screen, there's a big banner that says something along the lines of "Hey, you're missing out on very important features and are less secure by not registering an account with Microsoft..." with a call to action to link a MS account. This also hides the login screen by default and the only way to ignore that and get to the login screen is to click somewhere in the empty space but for a non-technical user this isn't intuitive. They always try to click the only thing that looks clickable. It's so shady. Sadly I had to make a MS account for them in the end to unlock Windows "S" mode into a regular version of Windows 10 Home so I could install an app that wasn't in the app store on their machine. The only way to do that was to make a MS account for the Microsoft Store but fortunately you can still login to Windows itself with the offline account. It never ends.
  • Tepix 5y ago
    Indeed, a few months ago Microsoft changed Windows 10 so that the only way to install it with a local account is to disconnect the LAN cable
    • teh_klev 5y ago
      I had to perform a fresh re-install on a laptop earlier this year and even had to go to the lengths of physically removing the WiFi card from the machine before I could get the local account option to appear in the installer. What an absolute fricken waste of time.
      • hilbert42 5y ago
        Right, we need laws to stop this practice. If, say, I bought a new laptop several years ago with Windows 10 on it and agreed to the terms and conditions at that time and Microsoft then increasingly tightens those rules with updates etc. then I'm forced to agree to the new terms that I now disagree with or otherwise I could potentially be in trouble. This ought to be a job for consumer law. Moreover, MS is inexorably moving stuff, utilities etc, that were once on its website to its store that requires login for, it seems, similar reasons. Clearly, knowing exactly who we are has financial benefits for Microsoft or otherwise it wouldn't bother.
• shantnutiwari 5y ago
  Microsoft has been using this dark pattern for a while now. Around 1-2 years ago, I upgraded MS Office on my Windows laptop. It asked me for my username/password-- which I didnt think strange, as I assumed it needed it to upgrade. And thats when I got a message "Good news! Your Windows machine now uses your Microsoft to login." W.T.F. I was never asked, never warned, just tricked into replacing my local login with an online one. Took me 10-20 minutes of Googling to get my original setting back. I have now turned off ALL updates for Windows-- it is my backup machine, for a few programs that only run on Windows. Every update on Windows scared me (and still does), as I dont know what dark pattern they will try this time.
  • teekert 5y ago
    Do you really need Windows? Our family laptop runs Linux, it does Teams for school, MineCraft, Netflix. You could do Office365 from a browser, although I admit, it is less than ideal. But it seems like you are almost at the emotional state make the jump... what's holding you back? I bought a Dell Latitude E5450 for 350 eur about 2 years back. It was used but looked new. It came with Win 10 Pro, which sits on my NAS as a gzipped bit for bit copy now. Everything works out of the box on Ubuntu 20.04 and will continue to work until it dies far from now. I can open the thing up and replace everything I would expect I could replace (inc battery). It's all I need speed-wise. If the kids drop it I won't cry. Fun fact: When I play MineCraft with my son (I do it from my work Win 10 computer), he has has booted, started MineCraft and dug a hole to bedrock before I even get to click on the MineCraft icon. The thing is fast and snappy and remains so. I made accounts for both kids and they can do many things themselves, perhaps because the UI looks more like an iPad than Windows does (i.e., hit the menu and a grid of icons fly in to fill the screen.) I'm dreading the day they ask for a local install of Office365 though... Or something like Adobe's tools. So far my oldest is 8 and it hasn't happened.
    • tsjq 5y ago
      Very well said. Fully agree with you. Both the personal desktops in my home, including the one used by my Sr Citizen non-techie Dad : are Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. Thanks for sharing this constructive and helpful info.
• denkmoon 5y ago
  Fait accompli. People who use Windows Home will happily comply.
• sbhn 5y ago
  I will never use a google account to log into android I will never use an apple account to log into iphone I will never use a facebook account to log into oculus Hewlett packard, cannon, lg, bosch, ford, tesla, bbc
• acapybara 5y ago
  When Windows 10 came out, the telemetry, MS account features, forced auto updates/reboots made my computer feel like it was no longer my own. Having used Microsoft OSes since DOS, this was the straw that finally broke the camel's back. After dabbling in Linux for years, this was motivation to commit 100% to using Linux as my main OS. It was mildly painful at first, but after sticking with it, I would never go back.
  • FpUser 5y ago
    I would love me to move to Linux completely. However healthy share of my income comes from my desktop products. And since I have tens of thousands of customers for those it would be a business suicide trying to convince them to use Linux. Even without it there are programs I use on Windows that are not available for Linux. So no, moving completely to Linux is currently unrealistic for me.
    • mackrevinack 5y ago
      your can't just run the windows stuff in a VM? although it helps if you have a beefy enough system, otherwise it can be kind of sluggish if you have a lot of other things open in Linux as well. its a great way to keep windows at arms length though using seamless mode in virtualBox is pretty neat too
  • ndury 5y ago
    I am in the same boat, I dropped all Microsoft products in 2014. There is literally nothing I do with my PC for which I need Microsoft products. It's very unfortunate to keep seeing these things pop up. It's like MS does not care or value the users of the machines and their operating systems.
  • alpaca128 5y ago
    Same. After my third reinstall of Windows 10 thanks to broken forced updates I fully switched and I don't think I'll ever go back. I lost a lot of software compatibility but gained a sense of freedom, with an OS that doesn't feel like it's actively trying to ruin my day, but just...runs. Without doing anything weird by itself.
• spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Can some explain what's wrong with setting up a microsoft account on a random email? It seems to me there are no differences in telemetry concerns vs. what exists currently.
  • Macha 5y ago
    Now you have a cloud dependency to access your local files - What happens if your Microsoft account gets blocked (rightfully or wrongfully)? - What happens if the next Windows update, Microsoft "helpfully" activates onedrive sync of your folders by default and exfiltrates your data? (HTC did this to me before with their Sense UI). - Maybe the latter leads to the folder if OneDrive syncs some copyrighted data to their service they think you're pirating?
    • spywaregorilla 5y ago
      > Now you have a cloud dependency to access your local files That doesn't make sense and isn't how signing into windows with a microsoft account works now. > What happens if your Microsoft account gets blocked (rightfully or wrongfully)? A microsoft account that was created to set up a computer and then never touched again? > What happens if the next Windows update, Microsoft "helpfully" activates onedrive sync of your folders by default and exfiltrates your data? (HTC did this to me before with their Sense UI). > Maybe the latter leads to the folder if OneDrive syncs some copyrighted data to their service they think you're pirating? Seems a little farfetched to me. I'd rate it on a similar level of risk to apple requiring me to create an id if I want to use any apps on my iphone.
• eddieroger 5y ago
  I agree with the sentiment of the article and many of the comments here, but what really struck me as the expectation of online availability, and the memory of a time when the Internet was something you connect to, not something that is always there. I definitely remember the days of a AOL dial-up or when we played with the local ISP, and you had to actively, deliberately tell your computer it was time to connect. Of course, I type this on my always-connected work computer, and enjoy my always-connected mobile devices, but I wonder how things would be different (maybe better) if the Internet wasn't just always there.
• dethos 5y ago
  Windows 7 was the last windows version that I used regularly. Glad I made the switch back then. The current trend is making "personal computers" less personal.
• rendall 5y ago
  I Will Never Click "Accept" to the Popup We'd like to show you notifications for the latest news and updates I Will Never Click "I Consent" to the Popup We tailor your experience and understand how you and other visitors use this website by using cookies and other technologies. This means we are able to keep this site free-of-charge to use. Please click I Consent below to give us permission to do this and also to show adverts tailored to your interests and allow our third party partners to do the same.
• Lendal 5y ago
  If you login with a Microsoft account, what is your home directory name? Does it have an @ symbol in it? Do you then have to type that in every time you want to access a file at the command line? > dir C:\Users\giantsfan123@yahoo.com\Downloads Seems ridiculous to me.
  • nightski 5y ago
    No, it uses a shorthand. for example if I am joe@microsoft.com my local name will be C:\Users\joe\Downloads
• Causality1 5y ago
  Is it just the mists of time that make me feel like it didn't use to be this way? Growing up, new versions of Windows got me so excited. 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7 all made me feel like my computer was better than it was before. Sure there were bugs, but my overall satisfaction went up every time. Now instead of reading to see what feature I'm going to gain, I read to see what feature I'm going to lose. I miss being a Microsoft fan. I miss not feeling patronized.
  • CA0DA 5y ago
    Same here - I remember being excited about Vista and 7. Now I just dread update announcements.
• _pdp_ 5y ago
  This feature is most useful for parental control and enterprise-level security.
• fouric 5y ago
  I have a candidate for an even better reason: I have no reason to believe that Microsoft will not pull a Google and start spuriously locking people out of their accounts (as happens every few months on HN), which may then prevent me from logging in to my own computer. In fact, I've already been locked out of my Microsoft account for "suspicious activity" (which was literally just purchasing Minecraft) and was required to enter a phone number to unlock it. Literal theft - I was compelled to either give up additional personal information or lose access to the software I paid for.
  • raxxorrax 5y ago
    My private MS account was locked after posting a question in their forums. I had to confirm my identity and had to give them my telephone number. Couldn't even delete the account because for that I have to be logged in... Got an answer to the question though, so thank you anonymous internet stranger. I wish I could confirm that your solution worked...
• deregulateMed 5y ago
  As an Apple user, I think this is silly. I already give Apple my personal information and lock myself into their walled prison. Things are fine in here as long as you stay in line and stick to the rules.
• bitL 5y ago
  Can't wait to get W11 accounts banned for the next election cycle if somebody views/read/stores "committee-unapproved" stuff.
• ddtaylor 5y ago
  Absolutely proprietary!
• bawana 5y ago
  Ms windows will become their gaming is. Linux will b their productivity os. Though Linux will b free, you will still need support contracts to get their enterprise software to work on it. Thus they will b able to significantly downsize their support department. If you don’t pay for the os you won’t b entitled to support.
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  After watching this fiasco unfold I have a hot take: We need to stop judging these decisions based on our needs and consider the everyday computer user. Yes, these decisions annoy myself and most users on this site, but we are in the minority here. Most people do not care and just want to be up and running. They want security/configuration to be easy. They don't want to have to think about it. I think that a lot of this will be good in the long run for security.
  • einpoklum 5y ago
    You yourself just explained how this is not a need of the everyday user: Most people do not need to have their PC/laptop account be the same as their account on some Microsoft services/apps. Also, and to generalize - we need to stop judging these decisions based even on everyday single computer user's needs and consider the needs of the computing using _public_. ... and the public definitely does not need Microsoft to remotely control access to all Windows machines.
    • judge2020 5y ago
      > ... and the public definitely does not need Microsoft to remotely control access to all Windows machines. Surely us HN readers have the knowledge to definitively state this as fact.
    • dividedbyzero 5y ago
      > Most people do not need to have their PC/laptop account be the same as their account on some Microsoft services/apps. But having only one secure login helps keep things simple(r), Microsoft can help keep associated devices secure and bad guys out, 2FA gets easier, and there is an easy way out in case of forgotten passwords and the like. For most people I guess that's pretty convenient and helpful. Besides, I don't think there's need for a term like computing-using public – let's talk about the general public. There won't be a lot of people in the general public who aren't either using a computing device like a phone or somehow affected by others using computing devices to store photos and phone numbers and the like. The general public is in dire need of very secure systems that can be used with a minimum of specialist knowledge, attention and maintenance effort, strongly resist being used insecurely, and that still look good and are reasonably fun to use and still allow for activities like software development to happen. That's immensely difficult and I'm not aware of any good definitive solution to this. This isn't just a question of being nice to grandma either, this is more about not leaving whole first-world economies vulnerable to highly sophisticated attacks with huge blast radii. We haven't seen much in the way of those, but who knows what we might have seen if platform security of the big targets hadn't kept up as well as it did? This whole complex is something a lot of people deep in the tech bubble seem to not really get: There are millions of power users, true, but there are billions of people who just want to pay their bills in an app or play a game or message their friends. The latter cohort is not intrinsically motivated to become IT pros at all (more like scared of the complexity and very disinterested), and they're not getting paid to secure their home computer, so some buy anti-virus and that's it. People don't want insecure computers, but the learning curve, time and effort required, the extremely dry subject matter, the unclear benefits, the overall scariness, that just doesn't happen at scale. Humans are amazing at conserving energy, and this checks a lot of conserve-this-energy boxes. iPhones are relatively hard to get into an insecure state; it's possibly, but the options to do so are limited and most aren't frictionless. I don't doubt most Windows home installs so far have been running with a passwordless admin account, with pretty much no restrictions on what to run and install, and many many footguns have been discharged as a consequence. The saving grace, so far, has been that most of those billions who have started using privately-owned computers in earnest in the last decade or so have been using mobile platforms, which have been pretty well-secured from the get-go; but to keep their non-phone offers relevant to this huge market, Microsoft and Apple will have to pivot their general computing devices towards that audience a lot more. That involves making them much more secure by default and much more resilient security-wise to being configured and used "wrong". That may be bad news to professionals and enthusiasts, but so far Apple seems to keep macOS enthusiast-friendly enough by making dangerous choices scary and adding friction, and Microsoft still has other licenses than Home that I believe are more enthusiast/pro-friendly. But seen in that light, requiring a Microsoft login makes a lot of sense, at least to me. Whether that's the main decision driver within MS, or the opportunity to gather even more data and engineer more stickiness and lock-in, I could only guess. They're surely not sad about another step towards a Microsoft Panopticon you can't get out of, but it's not like the security side is bogus, or not a big deal.
• xyst 5y ago
  Haven’t used Windows as a main driver for awhile. Windows XP (and maybe Windows 7 after a few updates) was the last usable update for me. The only reason I keep a Windows 10 license is for the occasional gaming session on a custom build pc. Some commenters report heavy dark patterns when trying to create a local account, but the experience is somewhat less burdensome on the “Pro” edition of Windows 10. If I recall correctly, I was immediately given the option to choose between an “online” vs “local” account after install. I opted for the local account and then immediately disabled all of the telemetry. I have to recheck telemetry settings after updating to make sure they haven’t sneakily re-enabled it. I recall at least one time the existing settings were still disabled but they added a new telemetry setting which was enabled by default after an update.
  • ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago
    Same, Windows 7 was still usable for me but after I found out they reactivated telemetry behind my back in an update I gave up all Microsoft products for good.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• gexla 5y ago
  This must be a poorly documented / communicated item that you must use an MS account to log into your system. You may have to jump through some hoops, but surely you could run something like a Powershell command to get past the GUI and do exactly what you want to do. Just like many people here would do with a Linux system. Maybe more of a PITA, but it would be worth the effort for me. And I bet there's some easy tricks. There's a difference between "supported" and "possible." Add a layer of marketing and UI magic and you get a lot of confusion. Edited to add: Just because it's a new OS, doesn't mean the guts of the thing went through huge changes. The ways you create an account is probably the same from 10 to 11. It's just the GUI which is changing.
• syshum 5y ago
  Microsoft views windows as a ThinClient to the Cloud... Not an Operating System
• phendrenad2 5y ago
  Want better OS choices? Don't just sit down and take it. Go try Linux distros, file bugs, code fixes, and don't accept excuses. If an open-source maintainer is blocking progress, hard fork and keep rolling. I feel that the Linux dev community has become stagnant and insular and we need more people from the outside to get involved. Could be you.
• CountDrewku 5y ago
  Just use Pro and tell it you're joining the domain...
• cheese_van 5y ago
  Even the most ordinary technically intelligent person would have a problem with this. And Microsoft have legions of intelligent tech boffins. What happened to their common sense? Surely someone said, "Nah, this is dumb. We're smart. Our job is to make tech better, not worse. Let's not push this." I just can't imagine a team of smart techs cheering this on with "Great idea!" What pressures transpire to induce really smart teams to make such extravagantly poor decisions? It's a mystery.
• HumblyTossed 5y ago
  > I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC Yes, you will. Eventually. They'll continue to beat you down until you submit. Because, here's the secret. Even though you built the machine from the ground up, hand selecting all the parts, once you install Windows, the machine belongs to Microsoft. No, really, it does. They certainly think so. And they're a rich powerful organization, so it must be so.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    Windows isn't anywhere near as ubiquitous as it used to be. Once W11 requires a MS login I'm not installing it for any friends or family - they're getting on the Linux express or working it out themselves. I won't be party to this BS, this isn't the future I wanted to facilitate.
    • arp242 5y ago
      Both Android and iOS require an account to be practically useful for most people, and have for years. Microsoft is "only" following suit, and I'm afraid that a bunch of hackers here aren't enough to stop the tide :-/
      • Brakenshire 5y ago
        People here can keep an alternative alive.
      • danhor 5y ago
        At least on Android, they're not really hiding the option of not using an account as opposed to what microsoft is doing. Probably because most people will use one anyway for the play store.
      • sounds 5y ago
        There's a solution I put out there for my non-technical friends. I just tell them to buy two Android devices. Obviously with iOS this won't work, but then again, iOS devices aren't cheap enough for this to be a reasonable approach anyway. Device #1: Buy the cheapest device you can. I give my friends specific recommendations. Invent a new burner gmail account for it. Install whatever you want off the Play Store - obviously, use all the normal caution to avoid any malware. Never put any personal info on it, so never put a SIM card in it, just connect over wifi. Device #2: Buy a nice Android device. Never sign in. Put the SIM card in this one. Side load apps and update them by extracting the APK from device #1. Export your contacts from Google and load them manually (and save a backup). Access your email using IMAP from a third party app. Backup your photos using a third party app. The point is _not_ to use Google Pay, Google Assistant, and Google Cloud. • Google Maps works without being signed in • Google Play Store will update Google Maps (and the default apps on the device) without being signed in, but it does use dark patterns to try to get you to sign in • Android OS updates will work without being signed in It is more work, no question. It works for me. Your mileage may vary. Disclaimer that I'm posting in kind of a hurry, so I'll just admit the details here probably don't make sense.
• blumomo 5y ago
  There is this strange patent registered by Microsoft Technologies [1] which mines human body/bio activity into a crypto currency. From what I understand, it can measure your energetic flow when you are exposed to certain ads/applications/Blue Screens/etc. ;-) I am sure it gives are very detail of your inner workings (psyche?) to Microsoft. "Body activity data may be generated based on the sensed body activity of the user. The cryptocurrency system communicatively coupled to the device of the user may verify if the body activity data satisfies one or more conditions set by the cryptocurrency system, and award cryptocurrency to the user whose body activity data is verified." I guess this mining technology requires the mining user/body to be connected to the internet, hence this move by Microsoft to require an active online account facilitates to role out this patent technology. [1] https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2020060606&_cid=P11-KQGO4B-44788-1 https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20...
• FridayoLeary 5y ago
  Nasty as these dark patterns that make you create a MS account are, it's not like we haven't moved forward. I don't really see the same amount of horrendous, unnecessary bloatware like i used to. It wasn't like it was perfect 15 or 20 years ago.
• DrBazza 5y ago
  If it's true that Windows 11 (home or pro) requires me to create an online account, then I'm finally done with Windows at home. I really hope that it isn't, but it does seem like this has been coming since Windows 10. I can understand from a company perspective that this kind of thing reduces piracy (and losses for a $2tn company), potentially improves the Windows upgrade route in future, and has minor benefits to some customers (cloud storage + 'take your account anywhere'). But there's exactly zero technical reasons to push this onto customers. I mostly use Linux all the time now so it won't be a problem to completely ditch Windows, but it's a shame that it's come to this.
  • albertgoeswoof 5y ago
    Surely pirates will just patch it, that’s not a good argument
  • Nexxxeh 5y ago
    Do Microsoft care about piracy of Windows at the home level? It feels like they just want that sweet recurring Office 365 and Xbox Game Pass Ultimate revenue, and they'll effectively give you Windows to get it. Last I checked, you can still use an old used Windows 7 key to activate 10 on a brand new motherboard. They could stop it, but they don't make more than a token effort.
    • DrBazza 5y ago
      That's kind of my point. A $2tn company can probably just write off what little piracy there is left, even more so now that everything is "webby". So why they feel the need to add this to a platform they're now effectively giving away for free for the reasons you state is even more bizarre. I guess data is the next billion dollar department in Microsoft, and this is them harvesting even more of it.
      • Nexxxeh 5y ago
        My reading of it is, it makes signing up to 365 and XBGPU as frictionless as possible. If you're already identified and authenticated by the time you're presented with the options... If you force people to do it early in the process, you won't struggle to through that objection and difficulty when you want them to metaphorically pull out their wallets. And to make advertising more targetted, again it's recurring revenue.
• cesarb 5y ago
  This reminds me of the "Desert Island test" (https://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html https://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html). Suppose you are on a desert island with a solar-powered computer, and no connection to the Internet. The original question was whether you could legally share modifications to the software in these circumstances, but it seems we unfortunately need now to ask an even more basic question: are we able to use the software at all?
• alyandon 5y ago
  My pseudo-workaround to deal with this is to use a Microsoft account for the sole purposes of backing up my digital entitlements. After I've logged in once, I create a local admin account using the control panel and never use the online account again.
• 29athrowaway 5y ago
  When Stallman warned people about the risks of proprietary software, people laughed and continued using Windows. You created this problem. You kept buying Windows when they added telemetry, ads and other forms of privacy invasion, so you emboldened to go one step further. And when they are done with this they will invade your privacy more and more. If Facebook can require Facebook login for the Oculus then Microsoft can require Microsoft Login for Windows. It works. You made it work. If wolves accept the convenience of eating leftovers from human camps what is the worse that can happen? Yeah, they got domesticated. That just happened to you. By using a Microsoft account now you are living inside Microsoft's data farm as marked cattle. It is not your computer anymore. You gave computing away by being complacent just like the wolves were. Your decisions matter, and your decisions have consequences.
• 41209 5y ago
  Obviously it's because Microsoft isn't selling the OS anymore. They're selling various services, such as office 365, Xbox game pass, and individual apps you can buy off the Microsoft store. At this point why not just make the OS free ? I actually like office 365, by far it's the easiest way to backup my data
  • neop1x 5y ago
    >> by far it's the easiest way to backup my data lol... until they lose your data (like Canon cloud service), until they increase subscription cost heavily or block access to your account (e.g. due to "ToS violation". Good luck
• SavageBeast 5y ago
  ... And the award for Mac Salesman Of The Year goes to ... Satya Nadella!!! WOOOOT!!!!
  • timbit42 5y ago
    The Windows users who would switch to Mac will accept using a Microsoft Account. The ones who won't will switch to Linux.
• prirun 5y ago
  Making everyone use an online account is the first baby step toward forcing everyone to pay monthly/yearly to use their computer.
  • partiallypro 5y ago
    You have to do it on iOS and Google's Android, and neither cost anything. Why does Apple and Google get away with it but Microsoft doesn't?
• orangegreen 5y ago
  On the bright side, maybe this will push more people who find this appalling to install Linux on their computers.
  • bserge 5y ago
    One can hope
• slumdev 5y ago
  Microsoft is working furiously to eliminate anonymity and purge unpopular speech from the internet. The Windows 11 changes will enable this plan by tying every computer to a real identity and using that identity to watermark all content. I'm switching to Linux.
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  You don’t become a 2 trillion dollar company by helping Joe Sixpack. You do it by serving corporations, owned by a few of the ultra wealthy, who have captured all the economic productivity gains that MS-like software has brought the world economy.
• sfgweilr4f 5y ago
  From the opinion piece: "I don’t know why Microsoft wants everyone to use an online login. I don’t know why Microsoft felt it had the right to treat its customers the way it did with the Get Windows 10 campaign or its six-year battle to push everyone to use online accounts." I don't know the actual answer because I don't work for Microsoft but I'm lazy enough to assume it is about money. Its financially rewarding for Microsoft to have hordes of Home users online. That telemetry is valuable. Those eyeballs are valuable. That level of engagement is valuable. Its telling that Pro and Enterprise versions operate without the same level. Home users always online is worth Microsoft either enforcing or in the very least "encouraging" this state. That is a sufficient theory for me. I might not have the full picture but its accurate enough to form opinions and predict Microsoft's future behavior. I'd expect multiple pathways around leveraging that online presence even further. You haven't seen anything yet. This is just the beginning.
  • donmcronald 5y ago
    > I don't know the actual answer because I don't work for Microsoft but I'm lazy enough to assume it is about money. Its financially rewarding for Microsoft to have hordes of Home users online. That telemetry is valuable. Those eyeballs are valuable. That level of engagement is valuable. Knowing every user is signed in and authenticated means they can develop new features as a (connected) subscription service. They can attribute usage and bill you for it. That's what it's about IMO. All new features, even ones that should be part of the core OS, will eventually be subscription services. I bet anyone using a free account will be getting their last feature update when they install Windows 11. I've seen the exact scenario play out over and over with SaaS. Windows with forced logins is essentially SaaS and they can use the same dirty tactics to make you pay forever if you want a usable product. It could backfire with an OS though. I'd be pretty excited for a version of Windows that doesn't get any new features or have any "online" features.
  • stubish 5y ago
    My take is it reduces friction. It gets you signed in and authenticated once, at start up. From then on, you never have to see a signup box or login box or TFA token again for services in the ecosystem. At the moment this would be the MS Store, Gamepass, and via Gamepass Electronic Arts. I imagine it will end up in the Edge browser as well... when a header identifies a Windows browser, automatically start the OpenID authentication dance with the Microsoft servers without even giving you the option to 'login with Google/Facebook/3rdPlace'.
• 6d6b73 5y ago
  Coming in Windows 12 - monthly subscription.
• robomartin 5y ago
  Let me take a contrarian position here. For the average consumer it is likely that a MS account is a good path. No different from connecting your iPhone to the App Store and iCloud, which most consumers do. For the average consumer such things as automatic updates and some degree of management is a good thing. Profesional and enterprise users are a different matter. In this case what is being presented here is a nonexistent problem. If a professional or enterprise user can’t figure out how to install and run Windows with the degree of control they desire, well, they might not actually be pro users. Using Hone edition? Please. This is not a problem. Something to gripe about for fun and entertainment? Sure. Have a blast. A problem? Nope. Never has been and never will be. MS has always provided professional users with the flexibility they require. Not doing so would destroy their business.
• Agentlien 5y ago
  This has me really quite upset and a bit worried. I feel very strongly that I will never accept this type of ultimatum and I've already talked to my wife about going back to Linux again. At the same time, I worry this might mean I may no longer be able to work from home, if my employer "upgrades" to Windows 11 and introduces some dependency on it. I guess if this happens I may need to accept commuting for two hours a day, again.
• jimnotgym 5y ago
  > I will never use... ... don't then. I thought I read Pro editions will still let you use a local account?
• executesorder66 5y ago
  I'm loving the new Microsoft.
• api 5y ago
  Apple has so far not gone this way, and I'm very happy about that (if anyone from Apple is reading). They do try to encourage you to log in with an Apple account, but they don't seen to use dark patterns to do this. You can use a Mac without one but you will miss out on the store and any iCloud feature... but the machine still works fine. There is an "allow your Apple account to unlock your local account" feature, but again no dark patterns. You can just uncheck it.
• geranim0 5y ago
  While we're at it, windows fakes letting you install qbittorrent, then flags it as virus and silently deletes it. Only way to install it is either disable realtime protection forever or make an exception. If installed and re-enabling realtime protection, it deletes it again...
• bradhe 5y ago
  Quite cheeky for a website that asked to send me notifications and wants to no my location.
• dzonga 5y ago
  I have a habit of not shutting down my laptop for long periods of time. I used mac os for like 8 years, till High sierra and it got slow. this was a late 2012 macbook pro. Then also owned a macbook pro 2018 with mojave, that crashed every 2 days like ol' windows. switched to ubuntu for my thinkpad, still hibernate wasn't reliable. end up putting win 10 pro on the thinkpad, n stability from hibernation is amazing. it feels like the old os x. so yeah, win 11 for me is a moot point - no need to upgrade
• haecceity 5y ago
  Buy Windows Pro?
• xtiansimon 5y ago
  On my personal I’ve tried and failed to change my login email address for a domain I no longer own. At work I’m constantly updating registry to take videos, pictures etc out of my explorer window. Fracking clueless. Why should any of this be in Windows Pro is beyond me.
• sys_64738 5y ago
  Most employers are all in on MS products like Office365. Everything in that eco-system revolves around you MS account. That's the paradigm shift. I guess the flip is what makes you so special to buck the trend that most people have signed up for? If you think MS cares what you do due to some tinfoil hat type concern then that's one thing. Ultimately MS doesn't care what you do as you're not really that important. Your lack of MS online account is gonna be lost amongst billions of these things. Who cares?
• intrasight 5y ago
  I generally run Windows Server. It's got less "stickiness" and bloat in general. I assume that the 2022 version won't require the user of a MSFT login.
• okareaman 5y ago
  Windows used to cost money but now is free with ads in the taskbar and requiring a Msft account to hook us into the ad ecosystem. Should they also offer a paid version without those revenue features?
• blablablub 5y ago
  How is the online account thing going to work with laptops? No more working in business class?
• masswerk 5y ago
  I guess, a local proxy box to all those account, update, and/or IoT services will be the next hot thing, after Pi-hole. Call it the Account-alypse. Otherwise, I can't see, how this masquerade of pretended ownership may continue.
• Woodi 5y ago
  Windows is dead - speaking as someone who bought all versions except 3.x and (maybe) 95. Bye !