15 ms·

Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

293 points by yabones 5y ago

MarkusWandel 5y ago
I just hope that some of that needless trash enters the secondary market rather than going directly to recyclers. First of all because Win10 will stay useful for most people for quite some time yet, second because these boxes/laptops make great Linux machines!
- bifrost 5y ago
  Most recyclers repurpose stuff like this...
- rambojazz 5y ago
  I for one would take a Ryzen 1st gen out of the trash! I would absolutely use those "trash" machines, and I really hope to see prices go to the ground.
bruce343434 5y ago
It IS a heap of needless trash!
arthurcolle 5y ago
Sorry for the aside, but do these TPM 2.0 modules actually guarantee any additional security?
- bifrost 5y ago
  A TPM does provide security, but unclear if it'll actually matter for the Windows use cases.
- wang_li 5y ago
  An encrypted hdd/ssd will help of someone steals your computer, removes your drive, and tries to read it from another computer in order to bypass your passwords. It won’t do shit for ransom ware. Ransom ware runs as a user land program and does encryption from within your OS where you data is live and unencrypted. The end result will be a hard drive full of encrypted files that is then reencrypted by bitlocker.
  - Aardwolf 5y ago
    If someone steals your computer, they also have the TPM, which has the key, right? What am I missing about what TPM does that is so secure?
    - mnd999 5y ago
      The TPM combined with secure boot will only unlock the disk if nothings been tampered with, meaning your OS security is intact. If you switch off secure boot or mess with the kernel or boot loader it’ll just refuse to unlock. I would guess extracting the keys from the tpm in other ways is not impossible, but probably sufficiently hard to be not worth it in most situations.
      - arthurcolle 5y ago
        So if you modify any components in a laptop, say RAM or a video card, or you you mess with any BIOS settings, it won't boot? is this for real...?
        orra 5y ago
        No, you misunderstand. The TPM verifies the bootloader and the operating system kernel, etc: that those components haven't been altered.
        Grimm665 5y ago
        No, I think you might be mistaken. I have been bitten by this when doing a simple BIOS reset for a computer that was having charging/battery issues. Resetting the BIOS tripped Bitlocker, which I did not configure or enable, it was enabled after doing the initial Windows 10 setup. Since the account was a local account, not one signed into a Microsoft account, the Bitlocker keys were not backed up an all data was lost. I was stunned, I've been doing laptop repair for almost 10 years and I've never seen something this stupid.
    - my123 5y ago
- azalemeth 5y ago
  As ever with security questions, the answer to that depends a lot on your threat model. Microsoft say that the main features of TPMs are that they [1]: > Generate, store, and limit the use of cryptographic keys. > Use TPM technology for platform device authentication by using the TPM’s unique RSA key, which is burned into itself. > Help ensure platform integrity by taking and storing security measurements. One can, in principle, imagine situations á la Apple's T2 chip whereby this could be very useful to the end user -- for example, in hardware rate-limiting whole drive encryption decryption requests. Microsoft don't actually state this as a potential use-case. They go for the rather more prosaic > Antimalware software can use the boot measurements of the operating system start state to prove the integrity of a computer running Windows 10 or Windows Server 2016. These measurements include the launch of Hyper-V to test that datacenters using virtualization are not running untrusted hypervisors. With BitLocker Network Unlock, IT administrators can push an update without concerns that a computer is waiting for PIN entry. The rest of the page then goes on about hardware attestation. In reality, I am increasingly convinced that this is all an elaborate DRM scheme, similar to what they integrated in the XBox, with its on-chip crypto. I think we will see increasingly user-hostile, but more "transparent" DRM schemes based around this idea, and continue the cat-and-mouse game of "you are running this code in a VM and that is unauthorised for $MONEY_REASONS". I'll stick to Linux, thanks. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/trusted-platform-module-overview https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/informatio...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hakfoo 5y ago
    I'm worried that pushing whole-disc encryption at people who aren't aware of the consequences is a huge risk. I suspect for most consumer and small-business users, the risk of "a power surge blew out my motherboard and TPM, but I can take the surviving SSD and plunk it in a new PC and salvage my data" is a much more important use case than "someone might steal my PC and get at my valuable unencrypted data." I know we've heard people screaming about this on the MacOS side, but thereit's intertwined with the unrecoverability of a soldered storage subsystem. Large and technical organizations who might need the encryption are hopefully more likely to have IT staff and policies for backups and recovery, so they'll be able to handle that emergency better.
btdmaster 5y ago
I wonder how many will be convinced to install Linux, especially given the increasing move for Operating Systems as a browser shim.
- bifrost 5y ago
  Probably zero.
- forinti 5y ago
  If Windows 10 didn't convince you, nothing will.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  Zero. Maybe some tens of consumers will have their computer converted into a Linux box by a nephew.
- krylon 5y ago
  I remember reading some blog posts from people switching to Linux because they disliked Windows 10 for various reasons (mostly privacy concerns and forced updates), but I think those were fairly tech savvy already. Most people will just use whatever Microsoft releases, either because it comes preinstalled on their PC, because it's what they know, or because they need Windows because of some application or piece of hardware. The year of Linux on the desktop will have to wait for a while, I'm afraid. (On my desktop it's been year-of-the-Linux-desktop for the past 20 years, fortunately.)
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Me too! September 2021 marks my 20th year. It and all of FOSS have brought me more joy than I can ever repay.
  - bifrost 5y ago
    YOTLD is defo one of those silly "jokes" thats had staying power. I'd argue that Chromebooks and Android are probably about as close as we're gonna get. I've been using FreeBSD as a primary desktop since about 1997 or so, and while I did spend a lot of time using it as a remote display for my Solaris and SGI machines, its held up well. I've also used the same window manager forever so I guess I like the anachronism :)
sedatk 5y ago
I think the article makes a good point about the arbitrary red line drawn between two CPU generations with no justification whatsoever, but "heaps of trash" isn't the strongest argument against this. Arguably, Intel releasing new CPUs causes that even more heaps of trash, probably orders of magnitude more than Windows. It's a silly argument IMHO.
- andyjansson 5y ago
  I don't think it's a silly argument at all. Windows 10 will meet its EOL in 2025, meaning that our computers only have 4 more years left in them (or you switch to something like linux, but that's not really an option for most people for obvious reasons). This will make the computers unattractive on the second-hand market. IMO a computer should be serviceable for longer than 7 years.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    >IMO a computer should be serviceable for longer than 7 years. How many Windows PCs are actually getting security updates for less than 7 years? Your CPU will have to be like 8 years old when you stop getting security updates for Windows 10 and you can't upgrade to Windows 11.
    - andyjansson 5y ago
      >Your CPU will have to be like 8 years old when you stop getting security updates for Windows 10 and you can't upgrade to Windows 11. Yes, and I'm saying that's unreasonable. Look no further than this very thread and you'll find plenty of people using 10-year old computers without issue.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  Releasing new CPUs doesn't make older ones unusable; making an OS incompatible with them without good reason does. The article wording might not be the best, still it's spot on: users whose software will require Windows 11 (or simply who won't feel like going back after upgrading) will be forced to ditch their system, which in a world dominated by Windows, therefore many users with the same problem, is a lot more likely to turn into trash rather than sold as used.
cortesoft 5y ago
I get the frustration with the requirements, but it is a little dramatic to say those machines who don’t meet the requirements will go straight in the trash. Those machines can still run Windows 10, and a lot of people will just keep using it. Why would people who don’t feel the need to upgrade to the newest hardware as soon as it is out feel the need to upgrade to the newest OS as soon as it comes out?
- HenryKissinger 5y ago
  Because Windows 10 support eventually ends, and because of the proprietary nature of the software, independent individuals can't patch their own computer like an official Windows Update can. So those individuals who keep using a W10 machine beyond the end of extended support will be vulnerable to any number of threats if their machine is not air gapped.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    Yeah, and hardware support also ends. Windows 10 is to be supported until 2025.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    and because of the proprietary nature of the software, independent individuals can't patch their own computer like an official Windows Update can. At least for older versions, there have been plenty of unofficial patches for various things, and many of those are open-source too. Patching binaries has been a long tradition in the DOS/Windows world, going back decades.
frozenport 5y ago
This article doesn't explain why it will create the waste? What changed in the spec, is it enforced?
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Win 11 won't support a bunch of recent (3 year old) perfectly good hardware because demands for TPM like features.
  - romwell 5y ago
    So the owners of that hardware will continue using Windows 10. Or, if they desperately need Win 11, the resale value of "good enough to do homework on" computers is still pretty good. But judging by the Win 10 rollout, the people who care enough to have the latest Windows to want it are a very small minority who have recent hardware anyway. I would bet it's a marketing choice, to ensure the the rollout is smooth and people like the experience. The specs might be a deliberate overkill to ensure that the first users have more than enough hardware (which probably was tested well enough), and are more likely to be computer enthusiasts who want latest-and-greatest.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      It has nothing to do with performance. It is almost certainly either due to malware concerns or DRM protections.
      - supernovae 5y ago
        Windows 11 benchmarks have shown improvements over windows 10 - i'm sure we'll see more starting this next week as the insider build gets out in the wild
- midnitewarrior 5y ago
  I have a perfectly good PC from 2015 that has a Gen 5 Intel processor. It is 64-bit, 6-core, supports TPM 2.0, and supports the virtualization instructions, UEFI, etc. I have 64 gigs of ram in this and other upgrades, it works great, but it will die with Win 10 because the CPU isn't on Microsoft's list. When Win 10 support is done, so is my PC that I've invested a lot of money in. So yeah, it's going to become trash or a Linux box I haven't a need for.
1stranger 5y ago
I don't understand this logic. The vast majority of people don't care what version of Windows they're running. They'll just keep running Windows 10 without a care in the world. Just like they keep running Windows 7.
- slver 5y ago
  Security fixes and support.
  - EvilEy3 5y ago
    Most users don't care about that.
    - robocat 5y ago
      Users care: so much so that they pay money for antivirus. They just don't understand the consequences of some of their actions or inactions, because they are not security professionals.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    You still get 4 years with 10. The Intel 8th gneration was introduced in 2017. So people who bought a computer in 2016 can still push it to ~9 years of service life, which is pretty good for an average Windows computer if they manage to do it. I imagine your average Windows consumer will have replaced a computer once already in that span once all the installed crap has stalled the computer to inoperable speeds. This honestly doesn't really strike me as a major issue. Especially since smartphones have like less than three years of security fixes on average.
    - andyjansson 5y ago
      >This honestly doesn't really strike me as a major issue. You're saying this from a position of privilege. There are a lot of people that don't enjoy the same financial security that you and I do that will be affected immensely by this. I know a few and this is not news in their favor.
fddddd 5y ago
people are forgetting w11 will be the useless windows version. everyone knows that between actual windows versions (3, 95, vista, xp, 10) there are the BS money making by selling flashy badges to PC OEM manufacturers (98, me, forgot the name , 8) so obviously w11 can be safely ignored by everyone.
- midnitewarrior 5y ago
  Microsoft can't afford to have a useless version, there are now viable alternatives to Windows.
- rzzzt 5y ago
  Isn't Vista the arch nemesis of 7? Also 95 is not too great but 98 is definitely not the bad cop, especially SE. Windows ME on the other hand... 2000 is also pretty cool, but didn't show up on the list, and not sure where the NT releases 3 and 4 would go.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    I thought 95 was better than 98 - faster and less bloated. Just the USB support was lacking but OSR2 fixed that mostly. 2000 was definitely better than XP in my book. Of course ME was a complete and total turd. But it was only built in a couple months after MS changed their mind about Windows 2000 personal edition. But really in my book XP was Windows 2000 Bloatware Edition. Same with 98 over 95. With Vista it went the opposite way though, Vista was all glossy/bloaty and Win7 fixed that. And don't start me on Windows 8, that was just a terrible POS on the desktop, with its huge start screen. Nice idea on a tablet, terrible on the desktop.
thrill 5y ago
"After all, security is all about feelings rather than safety." Really? I'm supposed to take someone seriously that makes a statement like this?
- nh2 5y ago
  Reading the preceding and following sentence: You have encountered sarcasm.
EvilEy3 5y ago
Oh noes! My thrasherinos! Think of environment! Just because there's a new version of windows, PC is not turning into pumpkin. It can run forever on old Windows version or converted into Linux machine.
ezoe 5y ago
I don't get it. Most users don't upgrade the Windows OS version installed on the existing hardware. Also, TPM and storage encryption won't protect you from ransomeware if you let attacker allows storage access.
unangst 5y ago
Modern Tech / Cheap Prices / Stewardship. Pick two.
eric__cartman 5y ago
I hope the public backlash against Microsoft is large enough that they revert there ridiculous system requirements. Requiring TPM 1.2 is sort of reasonable I guess. But TPM 2.0. You've got to be kidding me. Also enabling secure boot is a pain in the ass for users that dual boot, because in Linux, to load a custom compiled kernel module you have to sign it first and do a whole lot of mumbling around to get it working. Just try to install Virtualbox with secure boot enabled. I get the security concern, but why not let users install whatever they want on whatever hardware they want? Come on Microsoft, it's not like you don't already have a working kernel with arguably the best support in terms of drivers in the whole personal computing market. Also their "supported CPUs" list is a fucking joke. Why would they cut off first gen AMD Ryzen, for example when all Zen CPUs have full TPM 2.0 support built into the AMD PSP. The Ryzen 2000 chips they list as a minimum are basically the same in terms of features and very similar in performance to the previous gen. Zen+ is a slight improvement over Zen that didn't introduce any groundbreaking features to warrant such a cutoff point. Or are you gonna tell me that an Athlon 3000G will run Windows 11 better than a first gen Threadripper? Get your head out of your ass Microsoft, otherwise you'll be stuck with another Windows Vista.
- ehsankia 5y ago
  While overall agree, Windows 10 will be supported until 2025. By then any device without TPM 2.0 support would be at least 10 years old, right?
  - numpad0 5y ago
    “There’s this cheap stuff for non-customers, go figure” I think I’ve seen a eerily similar remark on Xbox 360 when XB1 launched so… is that a part of Microsoft ethos? That time the guy said that was instantly cancelled though.
  - eric__cartman 5y ago
    Considering how unexciting new CPUs are nowadays I'd wager that a 10 year old computer in 2025 will still be perfectly usable for basic tasks such as email and web browsing. Something like an 8 year old i7 2700k is still very usable for a lot of home users. It might not be a beast when it comes to crunching numbers, but a big portion of the population would be happy using such a chip if you pair it with at least 8GB of memory and an SSD. I'm not a big fan of generating unnecessary waste, and computers that get replaced because of artificial cutoff points in software isn't ideal. What I like about Windows 10 is that you can boot the installer on a Core2Duo if you want, and it'll install just fine. It'll probably run like crap, but that's for the user to decide whether they want to use it or not.
DarkmSparks 5y ago
Personlly, I'm just disappointed windows 11 isn't a Linux fork. No way I'm throwing out my Mac or Linux boxes for the trash they just demonstrated. (and its been 2 years since I had anything more than a win 7 VM now)
nwellinghoff 5y ago
Windows 10 support goes through 2025. And they will prob do a forced security patch so you should be good until 2027ish.
- mackrevinack 5y ago
  ok new title: "Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash, in 2027"
cdolan 5y ago
Could you not argue the exact opposite point with the same underlying facts? Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? And how reasonable is it to say these PCs will be immediately trashed? Seems like a straw man argument - I know plenty of schools that will happily run Win10 until 2030
- einr 5y ago
  Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factories-eat-way-more-energy-than-running-the-devices-they-build.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factor... "Study finds 70% of the energy a typical laptop will consume during its life span is used in manufacturing the computer" Also, at least on the performance/gaming side, Intel's latest chips are huge, hot-running power hogs. Since they are so far behind in process technology, they've been compensating by making huge dies and pushing the TDP. It's pretty bad.
  - cdolan 5y ago
    I believe you and tend to think that myself (my newest PC with ~2 year old parts has a noticeable impact on my home energy usage). I suppose my critique was more to prove a point that the news can be slanted either way and I find that frustrating.
leucineleprec0n 5y ago
The hype train is already starting RE: "people will switch to Linux, etc etc". MS for once abandons the backwards compatibility obsession, albeit in an understandable but not user-facing, palatable way as with a unified UI - and is dammed to Techlord Mordor. Poor strategy aside, MS just can't win with everyone, the divide is particularly stark for their user base. IMO though they should never have been remotely as lenient over the control panel UI and such, or should've launched a reworked OS dubbed "tileOS" that cleaved off cruft, nix-based with a unified touch & a great package manager, terminal for the backend. It feels to me like the current strategy splits too many hairs. Apple understood this, which is why they haven't launched MacOS RT/10X then scrapped it or some jazz. (And to be clear the issue with 10X is it that it wasn't really approxmating a cleaned up version of Windows - just a ChromeOS competitor for low-cost garbage) Oh, but as for Linux on the desktop - the only way that happens is probably MS throwing in the towel (which is a poor phrase given the context would almost certainly be a boon to most everyone) adopting the Linux Kernel or some FreeBSD core, with a compatability layer for Win32 bullshit.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  But their backwards compabitility obsession is not seen as a drawback by everyone. In fact I personally think Apple is taking things too far. The people that would complain about the backwards compatibility are probably not the same people that are complaining now. Those people would already be using their fancy UWP Metro apps :) By the way they are dropping the live tiles in Windows 11! So tileOS would be a misnomer. I'm personally very happy about that, I always spent a while cleaning up the start menu of all that crap after every install. I never liked the idea of them but admittedly I'm a pretty traditional user (and a power user at that). One thing I do really like in Windows 11 is the new pane system. I haven't yet tried it but it sounds like an interesting compromise between a traditional and a tiling window system. And the good thing about it is that it doesn't have to break any backwards compatibility (after all, neither do tiling WMs on Linux)
  - leucineleprec0n 5y ago
    Haha I realize that re live tiles. I do think the tiles lost their allure over time, but at the least the functional UI within menus and such that MS has been evolving at it's best looks great or superior to others of the day then/now (metro, fluent). Likewise re cleaning up the start crap, I'm not wedded to the tiles haha! As a reluctant recent MacOS user though, I really love the functionality of the start menu's easy-to-access list of my software suites/programs. I just strongly feel the Dock + Launchpad is a poor substitute for the Taskbar + Start Menu. Much easier to shove my programs in hiding, or to access.... Windows/instances for that matter in Windows (because all instances remain visible within a scrolling glance of an alias/icon, on Windows - it's something truly bizarre to me in that MacOS users don't mention this flaw - the dock is so easily cluttered and the setting to minimize instances into an icon do not offer an easy glance as with Windows).Anyways, I'd still really like them to unify the UI - it's just a deadweight loss for everyone right now IMO. Even the legacy IT managers... At some point asking them to tolerate UI adjustment isn't insane. RE: Apple: I do agree Apple have gone too far at times... I mean, I think dropping 32-bit support was for the better right now, not too many regrets as I write this on my M1 MBA, though having to dual boot for a class was a PITA last year with Catalina's lack of 32-bit support (and I am opposed to the use of V*rtualbox). IDK, I guess my only real quibble with Apple other than embracing iOS7 design is the direction they're hellbent on leading the charge for with iOS' software model. OTOH, where I part with some here is that I just don't think MS is really out to stop people from installing Linux via TPM - I think this is just usual poor PR and poor strategizing. Looks like they're determined to further muddy the waters lol: https://tinyurl.com/srk9zm7e https://tinyurl.com/srk9zm7e
pt_PT_guy 5y ago
People have voted... with their money. Microsoft can't longer afford being yield back by deprecated processor technology. And the bad publicity of doing so. By not bumping the requirements a lot of security and speed improvements can't be done. This is even more visible with the Apple M1 release. Because of it Windows looks like insecure, insufficient and unoptimized. People have chosen that they don't care about openness neither about supporting legacy hardware and Microsoft is listening.
- roelschroeven 5y ago
  What deprecated processor technology? The cutoff is not based on CPU capabilities or processing power. They just choose a point in time and only support CPU's newer than that.
  - pt_PT_guy 5y ago
    you're right. I was expecting that 10th+ intel gen had a lot more hardware extensions, but looks like there's none
  - roelschroeven 5y ago
    s/CPU's/CPUs/
HenryKissinger 5y ago
The basic problem: Windows is forcing hundreds of millions of devices into technical obsolescence, for no good reason other than another incremental upgrade to its operating system. Human civilization has existed for approximately 10,000 years. The main purpose of a society is to survive indefinitely into the future. I would like human civilization to exist in 10,000 years, in 100,000 years. If Microsoft changes its operating system every decade, we're looking at 10 000 iterations of Windows in the next 100 000 years. 10 000 cycles that, if current trends continue, will each render hundreds of millions of electronic devices obsolete, representing billions of pounds of plastic and metals each. To put it plainly, there are not enough petroleum resources and metals in the upper crust of this planet to manufacture the hundreds of millions of brand new electronic devices that successive wave of consumers will demand every few years. The author is right. The fact that Windows 11 will be available as a free upgrade to devices already running W10 doesn't change the fact that many, if not most, of them won't meet Microsoft's specs. I am very concerned about the environmental cost of electronics, and I'm afraid we're not taking the issue seriously enough. We're somehow trying to transition our way into a digital utopia the likes of which exist in science fiction, without the infrastructure or the resources to support it. One of the most popular PC games of all times is Age of Empires II, a game that originally came out in 1999. The original game can practically run on a toaster, and still enjoys a large and vibrant online community. Why can't we... settle on the same operating system for a few centuries? (I realize that Microsoft would not do this on its own, and that it would require government intervention in the market, if not an outright public takeover of Microsoft, but I'm throwing ideas into the wind here) Now I'm glad we're not still using Windows 95, but will OS's in 25 years be that much more advanced than 2021 OS's compared to 1995? I don't think so. I think Windows 10 is good enough for a long, long time. Microsoft's concept of W10 as the final version of the product was right, and I'm disappointed to see it go. Maybe the long term solution is for the government itself to start selling, if not mandating, its own operating system software to consumers and businesses alike. Government doesn't have to meet quarterly profit goals, which is a plus in favor of long term sustainability.
Todd 5y ago
Microsoft is late to the party here. This has been core to Apple's business model for years. Here's an example of OS support for the MacBook Air: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Supported_macOS_releases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Supported_macOS_re... The arbitrary cadence of abandonment is amazingly consistent and has no basis in hardware capabilities.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Exactly. I think part of this is driven by changes in Microsoft's business model. Previously every couple of years they'd come out with a new paid upgrade. But since they basically made Windows 10 a 'rolling distro', they've been losing a lot of income on this side. As Windows 11 will be free for existing PCs but new PCs will have licensing included in the price (as they did with Windows 10), they have a strong incentive to have as many people as possible buy new PCs. Just as Apple does. After all, macOS mainly exists to sell Apple hardware, not the other way around. It's no wonder their support model is changing, but I think it's sad they are dropping models so young. Windows used to be great at very long term support on hardware. Probably the best of the commercial OSes.
- ashdev 5y ago
  That's true, but if you compare the resale value of PCs and MacBooks, you'll find that MacBooks(even with outdated OS) have higher resale value. Therefore, this is a bit of a tricky situtation for PCs since they can't be sold for much.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    It's a tricky issue. Supposed I want to buy an used MacBook now, for a good price and still running the newest macOS. I'll find lots of 4GB or 8GB MacBooks from 2015 for example that can't be upgraded. Or... I could move back to 2012 and upgrade RAM to 16 GB and insert 2TB SSDs. 4GB MacBooks are practically unusable for any non-trival task so that fact that you can run the newest OS and enjoy security updates means very little if you can't do any real work.
- hughrr 5y ago
alkonaut 5y ago
> A modest Intel Skylake laptop from 2016 meets all the core requirements. It is 64 bit, supports UEFI, and even contains a hardware TPM 2.0 module on board. Is anyone suggesting Win11 won’t run on a 2016 Skylake? That Microsoft says it’s not supported doesn’t necessarily mean that. It would be extremely surprising if windows effectively checked the cpuid and arbitrarilily rejected a processor with the necessary features.
- vetinari 5y ago
  > Is anyone suggesting Win11 won’t run on a 2016 Skylake? Yes, Microsoft is suggesting exactly that: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min...
  - Kuraj 5y ago
    This is what kills me most. Not the TPM part, as I can (and have) bought an external TPM module for my motherboard for like $10. But this would basically require of me to build a brand new PC, while this one still does a fine job for gaming, development and audio editing.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    You misunderstood me: are we assuming that the Microsoft list of supported processors represents all the CPUs that can run Windows 11, rather than the list that Microsoft supports (meaning they promise it works, promise it will continue to work) These at least to me seem like completely different things (and have been in the past). As an example: Windows 10 is not officially supported on Sandy Bridge CPUs like the i7-2600K but it runs just fine.
    - floatboth 5y ago
      This looks like a list of processors they *approve for OEMs* that build *new* computers with Windows pre-installed. Everyone is acting completely ridiculously thinking that there will be actual cpuid checks.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ArkanExplorer 5y ago
Its grimly humorous that we need to upgrade hardware security because of ransomware - enabled by cryptocurrency. But we can't do that - we have widespread shortages of new chip components because so much capacity is being dedicated to cryptomining! Instead of tying ourselves in knots, why not just regulate and ban the base source of the problem (crypto exchange for fiat) instead?
userbinator 5y ago
This shouldn't be too surprising, given that Microsoft is also against right-to-repair... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318882 ..."because security". Securing what, exactly? Their profits and control. They don't want you using older systems because they have less control without a TPM and all the other horrors of Trusted Computing that come with it, such as remote attestation. It sounds almost conspiratorial, but I think this move by MS is just another step towards the "you will own nothing" trend of companies slowly herding their users with more and more restrictions and "beating them into submission", so they can extract more profits from them. I have zero "smart devices" in my home. My decades old car and other appliances listen only to me, are simple and easily repaired, and last a long time. My PC is slightly over a decade, but it's plenty fast for what I need to use it for. Others have made the safety/security argument to attempt to get me to replace them, and those arguments have likely convinced others, but I know what they're trying to get me into --- and very, very strongly oppose.
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
This is going to kill adoption of the new gaming features. I am really excited for Direct Storage on windows, but what incentive do the developers have to support it if only a small subset of their users have machines new enough to run it. This is exactly the same as the DirectX 10 disaster on Vista. It took a long time for developers to switch from 9 to 10. Most skipped 10 for 11 because it had the same windows support. And direct storage is locked to windows 11. Microsoft, you want to be a gaming powerhouse? Maybe listen to developers and stop listening to your executives that don’t understand. Games ported from Xbox Series X will be unable to run on Windows 10 if they require direct storage support.
- jmkni 5y ago
  Maybe I'm getting old, but it's mental to me that a regular SDD over SATA3 is now regarded as slow, and you need an NVME SSD to run things quickly. I have a gaming PC and really can't tell the difference between games loaded between the two.
  - vvillena 5y ago
    Because the games don't take advantage of the higher bandwidth. In fact, they probably don't even take advantage of the SSD, because games are still built so that they work when installed on spinning drives. The advantage of SSDs is the random access time, but if you are streaming continuous data, it's only about triple the speed of an HDD. A NVME PCIe 4.0 SSD can be up to 15 times faster than a SATA SSD. The difference is much much bigger.
    - jmkni 5y ago
      Get off my lawn ;)
    - omegalulw 5y ago
      Your argument doesn't make sense, a triple speedup is still a LOT and should easily be noticeable.
      - 5y ago
mikl 5y ago
This assumes that owners of functioning Win10 machines will decide to throw them away just to get Win11. I don’t think that’s a reasonable assumption for the large majority of users. If someone cares enough about having the latest (if not greatest) version, they are likely also upgrading their hardware frequently already.
koehr 5y ago
I fail to see any mention of or link to the detailed requirements talked about. To save y'all from yet another search engine visit, they are basically Intel 8th Gen Core upwards and comparable AMD CPUs. Here you can find the lists: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min...
- yabones 5y ago
  Thanks! I updated the OP to reference this for people who may not have been 'in the loop' and need this context.
cpuguy83 5y ago
New macOS is similar, where it seems like they are dumping support for any Mac that has an nVidia GPU.
modzu 5y ago
or better still, maybe its windows 11 that ends up in the garbage. give fedora a try :)
- haunter 5y ago
  I'd do once anti cheat works for online multiplayer games
andix 5y ago
Just to put it in a perspective: an iMac bought in January 2019 (kaby lake) is not supported by Windows 11. That’s just crazy. If Microsoft will continue like that, Windows will be the new Android and you can’t invest into new hardware, as it may be garbage already two years later.
- einr 5y ago
  Ahem. You can buy an Intel iMac today, new from Apple, that will not run Windows 11. https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-imac/21.5-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-imac/21.5-inch Yes, Apple still sells an iMac with a 7th generation Dual-Core Intel i5. For $1099. No, you should not buy one, but... there it is.
- Tsiklon 5y ago
  According to Microsoft’s own Health Check app the 16” MacBook Pro isn’t supported under Windows 11. I suspect this is because no TPM is presented from the T2.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
virgulino 5y ago
I built a new desktop PC 2 months ago. I bought the only Ryzen APU (new, not used) I could find online here in Brazil. Ryzen 2200G, Zen 1st gen. Released in 2018, still selling worldwide. Brand new machine. Not supported by Windows 11...
- supernovae 5y ago
  Supported by Windows 10 until at least 2025... i don't see the problem here
ferdowsi 5y ago
The "will create trash" reason is why Apple refused to switch to USB-C on the iPhone. They claim this while bundling USB-C to Lightning cables with the iPhone 12 which is among the most junk-worthy, limited-use types of cable I could imagine. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51208912 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51208912
illys 5y ago
There is nothing new here. Any new Windows version has transformed the previous generation of PCs into trash since people moved from DOS as a main user interface to Windows 3. And people say "my PC is slow because it is getting old"... Even if the hardware has the exact same performance and almost the same usage like in its first day. Why should they stop when customers comply and give them money? ... for ethics? for the environment? Who believes Microsoft has such concerns?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > Any new Windows version has transformed the previous generation of PCs into trash since people moved from DOS as a main user interface to Windows 3. The difference is that earlier hardware upgrades were important and did improve performance heavily. 2001 just saw the advent of 1 Ghz CPUs [0]. In 2011, quad-core CPUs at 3.5 Ghz were the standard, probably a performance upgrade of an order of magnitude, at least. But since then? The i5 2500 does still hold a bit of water to the Ryzen 5 5600 [0]. Sure, it has more cores and more single-core performance, but it's nowhere near that much of a difference. Windows 10 still runs perfectly fine on this hardware, even better than Windows 7 did - and not by accident, MS did optimize that! This is absolutely a new low for Microsoft. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_microprocessors#Athlon_(Model_4,_%22Thunderbird%22,_180_nm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_microproces... [1] https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-2500-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5600X/m517vs4084 https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-2500-vs-... (yes, I know it's MemeBenchmark, but the general values should be solid enough)
poisonborz 5y ago
The requirements list will be most likely eased later on - IIRC it was also the case for virtually all major versions of Windows. The reason of this strictness is usually lack of testing or some compatibility features not being completed by the date of first release.
- Gunax 5y ago
  My guess is that they don't want people to blame the OS for their slow machine... I seem to remember reading years ago that vista was a victim of this (no way I can find that reference now though).
makecheck 5y ago
Whenever some “reason” is given to make a major foundational break from X to Y, it almost certainly does not apply to 90% of the things in the bundle. Various apps, system frameworks, etc. do not need to be held to the same minimums for hardware; they just are. We need to push for more modularity in the systems that serve as a foundation. Or, at least push for open-source or flexibility in the things that are not strictly foundational (and theoretically much more portable), such as bundled apps. Suppose for example there is a nice improvement to some bundled app in the next OS; in all likelihood, that change could be back-ported to several older versions and be usable on almost any hardware. It won’t be, because it is bundled to something that wants to break everything.
mdoms 5y ago
It will create heaps of machines which haven't been upgraded to Windows 11. I don't see why these are "trash".
dosenbrot 5y ago
> We should be extending the lives of existing machines as much as possible right now, encouraging people to purchase new computers right now is irresponsible. Not just now ..., our entire economy is based on shoving perfectly fine hardware into the trash. Microsoft is just a small part in this game. Also everyone talks about "eco friendly" and at the same time things like that happen: "you want the new operating system - buy complete new hardware - its just slightly better then the old one".
nfca 5y ago
Is there an actual risk of "heaps" of "trash"? If Windows 11 will not be an involuntary, forced update then woudln't existing hardware continue to run as it does today?
fungiblecog 5y ago
Our entire society functions on the idea that consumption is good. And our desire for more crap is destroying our planet's ability to sustain us indefinitely into the future. So whenever I hear all these complaints about companies acting in their interests - rather than for the common good - I wonder what planet I'm living on. Until we accept that governments not only have a right, but a duty, to force us to reduce our consumption - rather than encouraging it - we're going to continue down the drain. Market forces and greed will not fix this problem.
stephc_int13 5y ago
I do not plan to replace my computer until I need to. I still use screens from 2008, they are working perfectly fine and might live an other 12 years. If I can't install Win11 on my computer, then I'll simply won't install it before a long time. We're not in the 90s anymore.
Schnitz 5y ago
Or people just don’t upgrade Windows, like when they skipped Windows ME, Vista or 8 etc?
contingencies 5y ago
Ubuntu and by extension the broader Linux and open source ecosystem will benefit greatly from this decision.
andrewclunn 5y ago
You say trash, I say linux machines.
mastrsushi 5y ago
I've been using a late 2011 MacBook Pro with Ubuntu Mate. From my experience, not only are operating systems becoming over demanding in hardware specifications, but so are dynamic web pages and the internet as a whole. It's almost impossible to browse the internet with a 10 year old pc. Something that was a lot more forgiving with older hardware 8 to 10 years ago. Future generations are growing with TikTok, Instagram, and all these apps that demand complex rendering tasks and large streams of video data. This is raising the bar on hardware requirements.
young_unixer 5y ago
To think that all of this Microsoft bullshit could be the propeller for Linux adoption, if only Linux developers had good taste and had developed something worthy of replacing Windows for the average user.
- swiley 5y ago
  What exactly is wrong with Pop!_OS? I put it on my GF's laptop after she kept complaining about the machine slowing down and she's been very happy with it. The Thai IME even worked out of the box.
- mackrevinack 5y ago
  or if linux devs would work together instead of all trying to make their own thing. that said, i think the devs that work on elementary os have good taste by the looks of it. pop and zorin as well
- wayneftw 5y ago
  I switched to Linux for my workstations three years ago and never looked back. If Microsoft had developed anything worthy of replacing XFCE, bash and the Linux kernel... well I probably still wouldn't switch back because I just don't trust Microsoft with my work machines anymore. I still have Windows machines for games and streaming, but those are just my toys. I can take or leave them.
- okamiueru 5y ago
  What an utter weird comment. I've been using both OS-es, and gnome on Linux is miles ahead of windows in terms of UX and general usability. Windows feels clunky, there are always two ways to configure any one thing. The only thing that is better on Windows is certain software availability, which has very little to do with Windows itself. People really think Linux is a bad experience, when it hasn't been true for the past 5 years.
sys_64738 5y ago
Couldn't MS just open source W10 around then so the community can support it indefinitely?
advael 5y ago
I will once again register my hope that this causes at least a significant portion of windows subscribers to consider non-proprietary alternatives. Linux distros are fundamentally more useful computer systems, open source communities have done dizzying amounts of work to produce mostly-working interop with windows-exclusive software, as well as numerous FOSS alternatives to popular products. I'm not going to lie and say there's no switching cost at all (After all, a multi-billion dollar industry works tirelessly to ensure that it's as high as possible), but some linux distro or other has served as a good daily driver for a myriad of non-technical users across the globe, and technical support is readily available on the internet and in most cities. Good for your wallet, good for your freedom, good for the planet.
- Havoc 5y ago
  > Linux distros are fundamentally more useful computer systems Last I checked I can’t play 1080p Netflix on them so I’d say the above is questionable for the average user. Big fan too but the year of the Linux desktop is still a way off
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fordsmith 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure that is because of DRM, right? It's not that you _cant_ do it, but they _wont_ allow you. Ofc, there are otherr ways to achieve your goal.
    - Havoc 5y ago
      >I'm pretty sure that is because of DRM, right? It is yes. Doesn't matter for the average user though - it either works or it is broken. Technical users might give it a pass on freedom & principles grounding, but not average users.
  - zorrolovsky 5y ago
    Are you serious? My debian and ubuntu computers can play 4k streaming without problems! (youtube, twitch, etc). I don't see a reason why linux can't play 4K. Could you please elaborate?
twoozen 5y ago
This is the implicit deal Microsoft has with the hardware manufacturers. “We make new Windows, you back it and you’ll sell new machines.” It’s a very deliberate move because it absolutely requires purchase of new machines. It’s not an oversight or an accident, it’s a lever.
BuckRogers 5y ago
I've never seen this site be so aggressively crying about their machines not supporting Windows 11, after a decade plus of crying about Micro$oft in general. No matter what they do, they're always wrong. It's time for you to install Linux Mint. The suffering of HN must come to an end. To change requirements, a new version was necessary. They can't cut off support on Windows 10 from old hardware which has until 2025, so this is how it has to be. I have a new i9-11900K build that's the snappiest thing I've laid hands on, and I'm eagerly awaiting Windows 11. Microsoft has done far too little of this type of cutting off of old hardware, and no one here knows the exact details on why they chose those generations of chips. There's more to it but no one at MS is going to sit and debate with you, it's just the way it is.
xavor 5y ago
Why do people always complain? If someone sells something with requirements - it is their choice and not down to people whinging because they want the latest thing but can't due to XYZ. This world doesn't owe you squat. Note - my personally built PC doesn't have a TPM, but when I get round to it I may purchase one and then upgrade - and I won't friggin' moan.
sjg007 5y ago
So will 5G…
phendrenad2 5y ago
Do people on Hacker News even use Windows? Seems like a bunch of MacWorld and LinuxJournal posters come here to talk trash.
TomatoTomato 5y ago
Even 2 year old $1-$2k 18 core 9980XE's aren't compatible. That's crazy.
barney54 5y ago
Microsoft has spent a ton of time lately bolstering their green credentials--such as this recent pledge to be carbon negative by 2030. https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-b... But then they show that those pledges are all windows dressing when it comes to obsoleting perfectly acceptable computers with Windows 11...
joshsyn 5y ago
I don't believe there is a shortage, when only few companies have a strong hold on their supply.
jhanschoo 5y ago
> If Microsoft truly believes that encrypting your drive is going to stop Moldovan teenagers from hitting your PC with ransomware, maybe a TPM is the solution. After all, security is all about feelings rather than safety. If “encryption at rest” makes consumers feel at ease, so be it. Tangent on this point: the TPM is obviously useful for corporate users who want hassle-free encryption at rest, but also massively lucrative for software publishers seeking to implement DRM.
ineedasername 5y ago
Most consumers don't purchase OS updates. Consumer licenses for Windows are miniscule, so very few people will buy a new computer just to get Windows 11. Corporations may upgrade more regularly, but if they have to buy new hardware to do it then they will probably just wait until their next hardware upgrade cycle. That may achieve the opposite of what the author fears.
roody15 5y ago
“ Requiring TPM 1.2 is sort of reasonable I guess. But TPM 2.0. You've got to be kidding me.” I disagree here. There is no reason (IMO) to require TPM for home machines or gamer/enthusiasts. Microsoft should instead fully support TPM 1.2 and 2.x so that in work/enterprise situations can fully utilize TPM when/if needed.
- Sanzig 5y ago
  I'm fine with Microsoft requiring TPMs for Windows 11 installs on new build OEM machines - that's fine. Requiring it on existing hardware is asinine, there's no clear technical reason to do so.
ineedasername 5y ago
I read the whole thing twice, but don't see where the author details which HW reqs are problematic.
- scq 5y ago
  It's the CPU requirements. Windows 11 only supports Intel 8th gen (launched in 2017), Ryzen 2000 (launched in 2018), and newer CPUs.
jdlyga 5y ago
It's not just the TPM. It's requiring 8th generation or later Intel processors and the equivalent for AMD. Microsoft still sells machines with incompatible processors for Windows 11. Yet we're all going to be losing support for Windows 10 in a few years. That's the main problem.
pcdoodle 5y ago
Microsoft: Keep VB6 and WIN32 support, you get a pass. Sometimes shit just needs to get done.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fomine3 5y ago
Mandating TPM2 is somewhat looks reasonable, but killing Skylake/Zen1 is pretty weird. Difference between Kaby/Coffee and Zen1/Zen+ is very small. Killing Broadwell/pre-Zen looks a bit reasonable. (even still not good)
jestar_jokin 5y ago
I think this article misunderstands the list of supported processors. The Microsoft page is for hardware developers, e.g. laptop and desktop manufacturers. They shouldn't be using CPUs that aren't currently manufactured/supported anyway. I don't think it restricts anyone running Windows on their existing older hardware. I'm still on an i7 4790K, and it's not listed as a supported CPU in the lists for Windows 10.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
i'll panic when my 2014 laptop bricks after windows 10 tries to update to win 11, but I believe that won't happen and I always backup my valuable data anyway.
rasz 5y ago
If you are a gamer and think you can stay on Win10 think again. Microsoft already announced DirectStorage arbitrarily Windows 11 exclusive. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/gaming-on-windows-11-directstorage-api-auto-hdr-will-require-os-update/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/gaming-on-windows-11-... There is a slight chance they might back down, like they did with DirectX 12 on Windows 7 support after huge backlash and pressure from Blizzard. That one took 4 years of slow win10 adoption (2015-2019) and angry game studios.
ostenning 5y ago
Windows is a stinker, basically corporate spyware at this point akin to Amazon Echo
webinvest 5y ago
Windows 98: good then. Windows 2000: not great. Windows XP: pretty good. Windows Vista: not good. Windows 7: pretty good Windows 8: not good. Windows 10: pretty good. Windows 11: _guess?_ Can you fill in the pattern? Microsoft’s history speaks for itself. Older HN members can probably comment about Microsoft’s earlier history and see how far back this pattern goes.

293 points by yabones 5y ago

I just hope that some of that needless trash enters the secondary market rather than going directly to recyclers. First of all because Win10 will stay useful for most people for quite some time yet, second because these boxes/laptops make great Linux machines!

bifrost 5y ago
Most recyclers repurpose stuff like this...
rambojazz 5y ago
I for one would take a Ryzen 1st gen out of the trash! I would absolutely use those "trash" machines, and I really hope to see prices go to the ground.

bruce343434 5y ago

It IS a heap of needless trash!

arthurcolle 5y ago

Sorry for the aside, but do these TPM 2.0 modules actually guarantee any additional security?

bifrost 5y ago
A TPM does provide security, but unclear if it'll actually matter for the Windows use cases.
wang_li 5y ago
An encrypted hdd/ssd will help of someone steals your computer, removes your drive, and tries to read it from another computer in order to bypass your passwords. It won’t do shit for ransom ware. Ransom ware runs as a user land program and does encryption from within your OS where you data is live and unencrypted. The end result will be a hard drive full of encrypted files that is then reencrypted by bitlocker.
- Aardwolf 5y ago
  If someone steals your computer, they also have the TPM, which has the key, right? What am I missing about what TPM does that is so secure?
  - mnd999 5y ago
    The TPM combined with secure boot will only unlock the disk if nothings been tampered with, meaning your OS security is intact. If you switch off secure boot or mess with the kernel or boot loader it’ll just refuse to unlock. I would guess extracting the keys from the tpm in other ways is not impossible, but probably sufficiently hard to be not worth it in most situations.
    - arthurcolle 5y ago
      So if you modify any components in a laptop, say RAM or a video card, or you you mess with any BIOS settings, it won't boot? is this for real...?
      - orra 5y ago
        No, you misunderstand. The TPM verifies the bootloader and the operating system kernel, etc: that those components haven't been altered.
        Grimm665 5y ago
        No, I think you might be mistaken. I have been bitten by this when doing a simple BIOS reset for a computer that was having charging/battery issues. Resetting the BIOS tripped Bitlocker, which I did not configure or enable, it was enabled after doing the initial Windows 10 setup. Since the account was a local account, not one signed into a Microsoft account, the Bitlocker keys were not backed up an all data was lost. I was stunned, I've been doing laptop repair for almost 10 years and I've never seen something this stupid.
  - my123 5y ago
azalemeth 5y ago
As ever with security questions, the answer to that depends a lot on your threat model. Microsoft say that the main features of TPMs are that they [1]: > Generate, store, and limit the use of cryptographic keys. > Use TPM technology for platform device authentication by using the TPM’s unique RSA key, which is burned into itself. > Help ensure platform integrity by taking and storing security measurements. One can, in principle, imagine situations á la Apple's T2 chip whereby this could be very useful to the end user -- for example, in hardware rate-limiting whole drive encryption decryption requests. Microsoft don't actually state this as a potential use-case. They go for the rather more prosaic > Antimalware software can use the boot measurements of the operating system start state to prove the integrity of a computer running Windows 10 or Windows Server 2016. These measurements include the launch of Hyper-V to test that datacenters using virtualization are not running untrusted hypervisors. With BitLocker Network Unlock, IT administrators can push an update without concerns that a computer is waiting for PIN entry. The rest of the page then goes on about hardware attestation. In reality, I am increasingly convinced that this is all an elaborate DRM scheme, similar to what they integrated in the XBox, with its on-chip crypto. I think we will see increasingly user-hostile, but more "transparent" DRM schemes based around this idea, and continue the cat-and-mouse game of "you are running this code in a VM and that is unauthorised for $MONEY_REASONS". I'll stick to Linux, thanks. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/trusted-platform-module-overview https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/informatio...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hakfoo 5y ago
  I'm worried that pushing whole-disc encryption at people who aren't aware of the consequences is a huge risk. I suspect for most consumer and small-business users, the risk of "a power surge blew out my motherboard and TPM, but I can take the surviving SSD and plunk it in a new PC and salvage my data" is a much more important use case than "someone might steal my PC and get at my valuable unencrypted data." I know we've heard people screaming about this on the MacOS side, but thereit's intertwined with the unrecoverability of a soldered storage subsystem. Large and technical organizations who might need the encryption are hopefully more likely to have IT staff and policies for backups and recovery, so they'll be able to handle that emergency better.

btdmaster 5y ago

I wonder how many will be convinced to install Linux, especially given the increasing move for Operating Systems as a browser shim.

bifrost 5y ago
Probably zero.
forinti 5y ago
If Windows 10 didn't convince you, nothing will.
Hamuko 5y ago
Zero. Maybe some tens of consumers will have their computer converted into a Linux box by a nephew.
krylon 5y ago
I remember reading some blog posts from people switching to Linux because they disliked Windows 10 for various reasons (mostly privacy concerns and forced updates), but I think those were fairly tech savvy already. Most people will just use whatever Microsoft releases, either because it comes preinstalled on their PC, because it's what they know, or because they need Windows because of some application or piece of hardware. The year of Linux on the desktop will have to wait for a while, I'm afraid. (On my desktop it's been year-of-the-Linux-desktop for the past 20 years, fortunately.)
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Me too! September 2021 marks my 20th year. It and all of FOSS have brought me more joy than I can ever repay.
- bifrost 5y ago
  YOTLD is defo one of those silly "jokes" thats had staying power. I'd argue that Chromebooks and Android are probably about as close as we're gonna get. I've been using FreeBSD as a primary desktop since about 1997 or so, and while I did spend a lot of time using it as a remote display for my Solaris and SGI machines, its held up well. I've also used the same window manager forever so I guess I like the anachronism :)

sedatk 5y ago

I think the article makes a good point about the arbitrary red line drawn between two CPU generations with no justification whatsoever, but "heaps of trash" isn't the strongest argument against this. Arguably, Intel releasing new CPUs causes that even more heaps of trash, probably orders of magnitude more than Windows. It's a silly argument IMHO.

andyjansson 5y ago
I don't think it's a silly argument at all. Windows 10 will meet its EOL in 2025, meaning that our computers only have 4 more years left in them (or you switch to something like linux, but that's not really an option for most people for obvious reasons). This will make the computers unattractive on the second-hand market. IMO a computer should be serviceable for longer than 7 years.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  >IMO a computer should be serviceable for longer than 7 years. How many Windows PCs are actually getting security updates for less than 7 years? Your CPU will have to be like 8 years old when you stop getting security updates for Windows 10 and you can't upgrade to Windows 11.
  - andyjansson 5y ago
    >Your CPU will have to be like 8 years old when you stop getting security updates for Windows 10 and you can't upgrade to Windows 11. Yes, and I'm saying that's unreasonable. Look no further than this very thread and you'll find plenty of people using 10-year old computers without issue.
squarefoot 5y ago
Releasing new CPUs doesn't make older ones unusable; making an OS incompatible with them without good reason does. The article wording might not be the best, still it's spot on: users whose software will require Windows 11 (or simply who won't feel like going back after upgrading) will be forced to ditch their system, which in a world dominated by Windows, therefore many users with the same problem, is a lot more likely to turn into trash rather than sold as used.

cortesoft 5y ago

I get the frustration with the requirements, but it is a little dramatic to say those machines who don’t meet the requirements will go straight in the trash. Those machines can still run Windows 10, and a lot of people will just keep using it. Why would people who don’t feel the need to upgrade to the newest hardware as soon as it is out feel the need to upgrade to the newest OS as soon as it comes out?

HenryKissinger 5y ago
Because Windows 10 support eventually ends, and because of the proprietary nature of the software, independent individuals can't patch their own computer like an official Windows Update can. So those individuals who keep using a W10 machine beyond the end of extended support will be vulnerable to any number of threats if their machine is not air gapped.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  Yeah, and hardware support also ends. Windows 10 is to be supported until 2025.
- userbinator 5y ago
  and because of the proprietary nature of the software, independent individuals can't patch their own computer like an official Windows Update can. At least for older versions, there have been plenty of unofficial patches for various things, and many of those are open-source too. Patching binaries has been a long tradition in the DOS/Windows world, going back decades.

frozenport 5y ago

This article doesn't explain why it will create the waste? What changed in the spec, is it enforced?

vorpalhex 5y ago
Win 11 won't support a bunch of recent (3 year old) perfectly good hardware because demands for TPM like features.
- romwell 5y ago
  So the owners of that hardware will continue using Windows 10. Or, if they desperately need Win 11, the resale value of "good enough to do homework on" computers is still pretty good. But judging by the Win 10 rollout, the people who care enough to have the latest Windows to want it are a very small minority who have recent hardware anyway. I would bet it's a marketing choice, to ensure the the rollout is smooth and people like the experience. The specs might be a deliberate overkill to ensure that the first users have more than enough hardware (which probably was tested well enough), and are more likely to be computer enthusiasts who want latest-and-greatest.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    It has nothing to do with performance. It is almost certainly either due to malware concerns or DRM protections.
    - supernovae 5y ago
      Windows 11 benchmarks have shown improvements over windows 10 - i'm sure we'll see more starting this next week as the insider build gets out in the wild
midnitewarrior 5y ago
I have a perfectly good PC from 2015 that has a Gen 5 Intel processor. It is 64-bit, 6-core, supports TPM 2.0, and supports the virtualization instructions, UEFI, etc. I have 64 gigs of ram in this and other upgrades, it works great, but it will die with Win 10 because the CPU isn't on Microsoft's list. When Win 10 support is done, so is my PC that I've invested a lot of money in. So yeah, it's going to become trash or a Linux box I haven't a need for.

1stranger 5y ago

I don't understand this logic. The vast majority of people don't care what version of Windows they're running. They'll just keep running Windows 10 without a care in the world. Just like they keep running Windows 7.

slver 5y ago
Security fixes and support.
- EvilEy3 5y ago
  Most users don't care about that.
  - robocat 5y ago
    Users care: so much so that they pay money for antivirus. They just don't understand the consequences of some of their actions or inactions, because they are not security professionals.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  You still get 4 years with 10. The Intel 8th gneration was introduced in 2017. So people who bought a computer in 2016 can still push it to ~9 years of service life, which is pretty good for an average Windows computer if they manage to do it. I imagine your average Windows consumer will have replaced a computer once already in that span once all the installed crap has stalled the computer to inoperable speeds. This honestly doesn't really strike me as a major issue. Especially since smartphones have like less than three years of security fixes on average.
  - andyjansson 5y ago
    >This honestly doesn't really strike me as a major issue. You're saying this from a position of privilege. There are a lot of people that don't enjoy the same financial security that you and I do that will be affected immensely by this. I know a few and this is not news in their favor.

fddddd 5y ago

people are forgetting w11 will be the useless windows version. everyone knows that between actual windows versions (3, 95, vista, xp, 10) there are the BS money making by selling flashy badges to PC OEM manufacturers (98, me, forgot the name , 8) so obviously w11 can be safely ignored by everyone.

midnitewarrior 5y ago
Microsoft can't afford to have a useless version, there are now viable alternatives to Windows.
rzzzt 5y ago
Isn't Vista the arch nemesis of 7? Also 95 is not too great but 98 is definitely not the bad cop, especially SE. Windows ME on the other hand... 2000 is also pretty cool, but didn't show up on the list, and not sure where the NT releases 3 and 4 would go.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I thought 95 was better than 98 - faster and less bloated. Just the USB support was lacking but OSR2 fixed that mostly. 2000 was definitely better than XP in my book. Of course ME was a complete and total turd. But it was only built in a couple months after MS changed their mind about Windows 2000 personal edition. But really in my book XP was Windows 2000 Bloatware Edition. Same with 98 over 95. With Vista it went the opposite way though, Vista was all glossy/bloaty and Win7 fixed that. And don't start me on Windows 8, that was just a terrible POS on the desktop, with its huge start screen. Nice idea on a tablet, terrible on the desktop.

thrill 5y ago

"After all, security is all about feelings rather than safety." Really? I'm supposed to take someone seriously that makes a statement like this?

nh2 5y ago
Reading the preceding and following sentence: You have encountered sarcasm.

EvilEy3 5y ago

Oh noes! My thrasherinos! Think of environment! Just because there's a new version of windows, PC is not turning into pumpkin. It can run forever on old Windows version or converted into Linux machine.

ezoe 5y ago

I don't get it. Most users don't upgrade the Windows OS version installed on the existing hardware. Also, TPM and storage encryption won't protect you from ransomeware if you let attacker allows storage access.

unangst 5y ago

Modern Tech / Cheap Prices / Stewardship. Pick two.

eric__cartman 5y ago

I hope the public backlash against Microsoft is large enough that they revert there ridiculous system requirements. Requiring TPM 1.2 is sort of reasonable I guess. But TPM 2.0. You've got to be kidding me. Also enabling secure boot is a pain in the ass for users that dual boot, because in Linux, to load a custom compiled kernel module you have to sign it first and do a whole lot of mumbling around to get it working. Just try to install Virtualbox with secure boot enabled. I get the security concern, but why not let users install whatever they want on whatever hardware they want? Come on Microsoft, it's not like you don't already have a working kernel with arguably the best support in terms of drivers in the whole personal computing market. Also their "supported CPUs" list is a fucking joke. Why would they cut off first gen AMD Ryzen, for example when all Zen CPUs have full TPM 2.0 support built into the AMD PSP. The Ryzen 2000 chips they list as a minimum are basically the same in terms of features and very similar in performance to the previous gen. Zen+ is a slight improvement over Zen that didn't introduce any groundbreaking features to warrant such a cutoff point. Or are you gonna tell me that an Athlon 3000G will run Windows 11 better than a first gen Threadripper? Get your head out of your ass Microsoft, otherwise you'll be stuck with another Windows Vista.

ehsankia 5y ago
While overall agree, Windows 10 will be supported until 2025. By then any device without TPM 2.0 support would be at least 10 years old, right?
- numpad0 5y ago
  “There’s this cheap stuff for non-customers, go figure” I think I’ve seen a eerily similar remark on Xbox 360 when XB1 launched so… is that a part of Microsoft ethos? That time the guy said that was instantly cancelled though.
- eric__cartman 5y ago
  Considering how unexciting new CPUs are nowadays I'd wager that a 10 year old computer in 2025 will still be perfectly usable for basic tasks such as email and web browsing. Something like an 8 year old i7 2700k is still very usable for a lot of home users. It might not be a beast when it comes to crunching numbers, but a big portion of the population would be happy using such a chip if you pair it with at least 8GB of memory and an SSD. I'm not a big fan of generating unnecessary waste, and computers that get replaced because of artificial cutoff points in software isn't ideal. What I like about Windows 10 is that you can boot the installer on a Core2Duo if you want, and it'll install just fine. It'll probably run like crap, but that's for the user to decide whether they want to use it or not.

DarkmSparks 5y ago

Personlly, I'm just disappointed windows 11 isn't a Linux fork. No way I'm throwing out my Mac or Linux boxes for the trash they just demonstrated. (and its been 2 years since I had anything more than a win 7 VM now)

nwellinghoff 5y ago

Windows 10 support goes through 2025. And they will prob do a forced security patch so you should be good until 2027ish.

mackrevinack 5y ago
ok new title: "Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash, in 2027"

cdolan 5y ago

Could you not argue the exact opposite point with the same underlying facts? Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? And how reasonable is it to say these PCs will be immediately trashed? Seems like a straw man argument - I know plenty of schools that will happily run Win10 until 2030

einr 5y ago
Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factories-eat-way-more-energy-than-running-the-devices-they-build.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factor... "Study finds 70% of the energy a typical laptop will consume during its life span is used in manufacturing the computer" Also, at least on the performance/gaming side, Intel's latest chips are huge, hot-running power hogs. Since they are so far behind in process technology, they've been compensating by making huge dies and pushing the TDP. It's pretty bad.
- cdolan 5y ago
  I believe you and tend to think that myself (my newest PC with ~2 year old parts has a noticeable impact on my home energy usage). I suppose my critique was more to prove a point that the news can be slanted either way and I find that frustrating.

leucineleprec0n 5y ago

The hype train is already starting RE: "people will switch to Linux, etc etc". MS for once abandons the backwards compatibility obsession, albeit in an understandable but not user-facing, palatable way as with a unified UI - and is dammed to Techlord Mordor. Poor strategy aside, MS just can't win with everyone, the divide is particularly stark for their user base. IMO though they should never have been remotely as lenient over the control panel UI and such, or should've launched a reworked OS dubbed "tileOS" that cleaved off cruft, nix-based with a unified touch & a great package manager, terminal for the backend. It feels to me like the current strategy splits too many hairs. Apple understood this, which is why they haven't launched MacOS RT/10X then scrapped it or some jazz. (And to be clear the issue with 10X is it that it wasn't really approxmating a cleaned up version of Windows - just a ChromeOS competitor for low-cost garbage) Oh, but as for Linux on the desktop - the only way that happens is probably MS throwing in the towel (which is a poor phrase given the context would almost certainly be a boon to most everyone) adopting the Linux Kernel or some FreeBSD core, with a compatability layer for Win32 bullshit.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
But their backwards compabitility obsession is not seen as a drawback by everyone. In fact I personally think Apple is taking things too far. The people that would complain about the backwards compatibility are probably not the same people that are complaining now. Those people would already be using their fancy UWP Metro apps :) By the way they are dropping the live tiles in Windows 11! So tileOS would be a misnomer. I'm personally very happy about that, I always spent a while cleaning up the start menu of all that crap after every install. I never liked the idea of them but admittedly I'm a pretty traditional user (and a power user at that). One thing I do really like in Windows 11 is the new pane system. I haven't yet tried it but it sounds like an interesting compromise between a traditional and a tiling window system. And the good thing about it is that it doesn't have to break any backwards compatibility (after all, neither do tiling WMs on Linux)
- leucineleprec0n 5y ago
  Haha I realize that re live tiles. I do think the tiles lost their allure over time, but at the least the functional UI within menus and such that MS has been evolving at it's best looks great or superior to others of the day then/now (metro, fluent). Likewise re cleaning up the start crap, I'm not wedded to the tiles haha! As a reluctant recent MacOS user though, I really love the functionality of the start menu's easy-to-access list of my software suites/programs. I just strongly feel the Dock + Launchpad is a poor substitute for the Taskbar + Start Menu. Much easier to shove my programs in hiding, or to access.... Windows/instances for that matter in Windows (because all instances remain visible within a scrolling glance of an alias/icon, on Windows - it's something truly bizarre to me in that MacOS users don't mention this flaw - the dock is so easily cluttered and the setting to minimize instances into an icon do not offer an easy glance as with Windows).Anyways, I'd still really like them to unify the UI - it's just a deadweight loss for everyone right now IMO. Even the legacy IT managers... At some point asking them to tolerate UI adjustment isn't insane. RE: Apple: I do agree Apple have gone too far at times... I mean, I think dropping 32-bit support was for the better right now, not too many regrets as I write this on my M1 MBA, though having to dual boot for a class was a PITA last year with Catalina's lack of 32-bit support (and I am opposed to the use of V*rtualbox). IDK, I guess my only real quibble with Apple other than embracing iOS7 design is the direction they're hellbent on leading the charge for with iOS' software model. OTOH, where I part with some here is that I just don't think MS is really out to stop people from installing Linux via TPM - I think this is just usual poor PR and poor strategizing. Looks like they're determined to further muddy the waters lol: https://tinyurl.com/srk9zm7e https://tinyurl.com/srk9zm7e

pt_PT_guy 5y ago

People have voted... with their money. Microsoft can't longer afford being yield back by deprecated processor technology. And the bad publicity of doing so. By not bumping the requirements a lot of security and speed improvements can't be done. This is even more visible with the Apple M1 release. Because of it Windows looks like insecure, insufficient and unoptimized. People have chosen that they don't care about openness neither about supporting legacy hardware and Microsoft is listening.

roelschroeven 5y ago
What deprecated processor technology? The cutoff is not based on CPU capabilities or processing power. They just choose a point in time and only support CPU's newer than that.
- pt_PT_guy 5y ago
  you're right. I was expecting that 10th+ intel gen had a lot more hardware extensions, but looks like there's none
- roelschroeven 5y ago
  s/CPU's/CPUs/

HenryKissinger 5y ago

The basic problem: Windows is forcing hundreds of millions of devices into technical obsolescence, for no good reason other than another incremental upgrade to its operating system. Human civilization has existed for approximately 10,000 years. The main purpose of a society is to survive indefinitely into the future. I would like human civilization to exist in 10,000 years, in 100,000 years. If Microsoft changes its operating system every decade, we're looking at 10 000 iterations of Windows in the next 100 000 years. 10 000 cycles that, if current trends continue, will each render hundreds of millions of electronic devices obsolete, representing billions of pounds of plastic and metals each. To put it plainly, there are not enough petroleum resources and metals in the upper crust of this planet to manufacture the hundreds of millions of brand new electronic devices that successive wave of consumers will demand every few years. The author is right. The fact that Windows 11 will be available as a free upgrade to devices already running W10 doesn't change the fact that many, if not most, of them won't meet Microsoft's specs. I am very concerned about the environmental cost of electronics, and I'm afraid we're not taking the issue seriously enough. We're somehow trying to transition our way into a digital utopia the likes of which exist in science fiction, without the infrastructure or the resources to support it. One of the most popular PC games of all times is Age of Empires II, a game that originally came out in 1999. The original game can practically run on a toaster, and still enjoys a large and vibrant online community. Why can't we... settle on the same operating system for a few centuries? (I realize that Microsoft would not do this on its own, and that it would require government intervention in the market, if not an outright public takeover of Microsoft, but I'm throwing ideas into the wind here) Now I'm glad we're not still using Windows 95, but will OS's in 25 years be that much more advanced than 2021 OS's compared to 1995? I don't think so. I think Windows 10 is good enough for a long, long time. Microsoft's concept of W10 as the final version of the product was right, and I'm disappointed to see it go. Maybe the long term solution is for the government itself to start selling, if not mandating, its own operating system software to consumers and businesses alike. Government doesn't have to meet quarterly profit goals, which is a plus in favor of long term sustainability.

Todd 5y ago

Microsoft is late to the party here. This has been core to Apple's business model for years. Here's an example of OS support for the MacBook Air: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Supported_macOS_releases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Supported_macOS_re... The arbitrary cadence of abandonment is amazingly consistent and has no basis in hardware capabilities.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Exactly. I think part of this is driven by changes in Microsoft's business model. Previously every couple of years they'd come out with a new paid upgrade. But since they basically made Windows 10 a 'rolling distro', they've been losing a lot of income on this side. As Windows 11 will be free for existing PCs but new PCs will have licensing included in the price (as they did with Windows 10), they have a strong incentive to have as many people as possible buy new PCs. Just as Apple does. After all, macOS mainly exists to sell Apple hardware, not the other way around. It's no wonder their support model is changing, but I think it's sad they are dropping models so young. Windows used to be great at very long term support on hardware. Probably the best of the commercial OSes.
ashdev 5y ago
That's true, but if you compare the resale value of PCs and MacBooks, you'll find that MacBooks(even with outdated OS) have higher resale value. Therefore, this is a bit of a tricky situtation for PCs since they can't be sold for much.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  It's a tricky issue. Supposed I want to buy an used MacBook now, for a good price and still running the newest macOS. I'll find lots of 4GB or 8GB MacBooks from 2015 for example that can't be upgraded. Or... I could move back to 2012 and upgrade RAM to 16 GB and insert 2TB SSDs. 4GB MacBooks are practically unusable for any non-trival task so that fact that you can run the newest OS and enjoy security updates means very little if you can't do any real work.
hughrr 5y ago

alkonaut 5y ago

> A modest Intel Skylake laptop from 2016 meets all the core requirements. It is 64 bit, supports UEFI, and even contains a hardware TPM 2.0 module on board. Is anyone suggesting Win11 won’t run on a 2016 Skylake? That Microsoft says it’s not supported doesn’t necessarily mean that. It would be extremely surprising if windows effectively checked the cpuid and arbitrarilily rejected a processor with the necessary features.

vetinari 5y ago
> Is anyone suggesting Win11 won’t run on a 2016 Skylake? Yes, Microsoft is suggesting exactly that: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min...
- Kuraj 5y ago
  This is what kills me most. Not the TPM part, as I can (and have) bought an external TPM module for my motherboard for like $10. But this would basically require of me to build a brand new PC, while this one still does a fine job for gaming, development and audio editing.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  You misunderstood me: are we assuming that the Microsoft list of supported processors represents all the CPUs that can run Windows 11, rather than the list that Microsoft supports (meaning they promise it works, promise it will continue to work) These at least to me seem like completely different things (and have been in the past). As an example: Windows 10 is not officially supported on Sandy Bridge CPUs like the i7-2600K but it runs just fine.
  - floatboth 5y ago
    This looks like a list of processors they *approve for OEMs* that build *new* computers with Windows pre-installed. Everyone is acting completely ridiculously thinking that there will be actual cpuid checks.

deleted 5y ago

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ArkanExplorer 5y ago

Its grimly humorous that we need to upgrade hardware security because of ransomware - enabled by cryptocurrency. But we can't do that - we have widespread shortages of new chip components because so much capacity is being dedicated to cryptomining! Instead of tying ourselves in knots, why not just regulate and ban the base source of the problem (crypto exchange for fiat) instead?

userbinator 5y ago

This shouldn't be too surprising, given that Microsoft is also against right-to-repair... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318882 ..."because security". Securing what, exactly? Their profits and control. They don't want you using older systems because they have less control without a TPM and all the other horrors of Trusted Computing that come with it, such as remote attestation. It sounds almost conspiratorial, but I think this move by MS is just another step towards the "you will own nothing" trend of companies slowly herding their users with more and more restrictions and "beating them into submission", so they can extract more profits from them. I have zero "smart devices" in my home. My decades old car and other appliances listen only to me, are simple and easily repaired, and last a long time. My PC is slightly over a decade, but it's plenty fast for what I need to use it for. Others have made the safety/security argument to attempt to get me to replace them, and those arguments have likely convinced others, but I know what they're trying to get me into --- and very, very strongly oppose.

jbluepolarbear 5y ago

This is going to kill adoption of the new gaming features. I am really excited for Direct Storage on windows, but what incentive do the developers have to support it if only a small subset of their users have machines new enough to run it. This is exactly the same as the DirectX 10 disaster on Vista. It took a long time for developers to switch from 9 to 10. Most skipped 10 for 11 because it had the same windows support. And direct storage is locked to windows 11. Microsoft, you want to be a gaming powerhouse? Maybe listen to developers and stop listening to your executives that don’t understand. Games ported from Xbox Series X will be unable to run on Windows 10 if they require direct storage support.

jmkni 5y ago
Maybe I'm getting old, but it's mental to me that a regular SDD over SATA3 is now regarded as slow, and you need an NVME SSD to run things quickly. I have a gaming PC and really can't tell the difference between games loaded between the two.
- vvillena 5y ago
  Because the games don't take advantage of the higher bandwidth. In fact, they probably don't even take advantage of the SSD, because games are still built so that they work when installed on spinning drives. The advantage of SSDs is the random access time, but if you are streaming continuous data, it's only about triple the speed of an HDD. A NVME PCIe 4.0 SSD can be up to 15 times faster than a SATA SSD. The difference is much much bigger.
  - jmkni 5y ago
    Get off my lawn ;)
  - omegalulw 5y ago
    Your argument doesn't make sense, a triple speedup is still a LOT and should easily be noticeable.
    - 5y ago

mikl 5y ago

This assumes that owners of functioning Win10 machines will decide to throw them away just to get Win11. I don’t think that’s a reasonable assumption for the large majority of users. If someone cares enough about having the latest (if not greatest) version, they are likely also upgrading their hardware frequently already.

koehr 5y ago

I fail to see any mention of or link to the detailed requirements talked about. To save y'all from yet another search engine visit, they are basically Intel 8th Gen Core upwards and comparable AMD CPUs. Here you can find the lists: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min...

yabones 5y ago
Thanks! I updated the OP to reference this for people who may not have been 'in the loop' and need this context.

cpuguy83 5y ago

New macOS is similar, where it seems like they are dumping support for any Mac that has an nVidia GPU.

modzu 5y ago

or better still, maybe its windows 11 that ends up in the garbage. give fedora a try :)

haunter 5y ago
I'd do once anti cheat works for online multiplayer games

andix 5y ago

Just to put it in a perspective: an iMac bought in January 2019 (kaby lake) is not supported by Windows 11. That’s just crazy. If Microsoft will continue like that, Windows will be the new Android and you can’t invest into new hardware, as it may be garbage already two years later.

einr 5y ago
Ahem. You can buy an Intel iMac today, new from Apple, that will not run Windows 11. https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-imac/21.5-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-imac/21.5-inch Yes, Apple still sells an iMac with a 7th generation Dual-Core Intel i5. For $1099. No, you should not buy one, but... there it is.
Tsiklon 5y ago
According to Microsoft’s own Health Check app the 16” MacBook Pro isn’t supported under Windows 11. I suspect this is because no TPM is presented from the T2.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

virgulino 5y ago

I built a new desktop PC 2 months ago. I bought the only Ryzen APU (new, not used) I could find online here in Brazil. Ryzen 2200G, Zen 1st gen. Released in 2018, still selling worldwide. Brand new machine. Not supported by Windows 11...

supernovae 5y ago
Supported by Windows 10 until at least 2025... i don't see the problem here

ferdowsi 5y ago

The "will create trash" reason is why Apple refused to switch to USB-C on the iPhone. They claim this while bundling USB-C to Lightning cables with the iPhone 12 which is among the most junk-worthy, limited-use types of cable I could imagine. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51208912 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51208912

illys 5y ago

There is nothing new here. Any new Windows version has transformed the previous generation of PCs into trash since people moved from DOS as a main user interface to Windows 3. And people say "my PC is slow because it is getting old"... Even if the hardware has the exact same performance and almost the same usage like in its first day. Why should they stop when customers comply and give them money? ... for ethics? for the environment? Who believes Microsoft has such concerns?

Sebb767 5y ago
> Any new Windows version has transformed the previous generation of PCs into trash since people moved from DOS as a main user interface to Windows 3. The difference is that earlier hardware upgrades were important and did improve performance heavily. 2001 just saw the advent of 1 Ghz CPUs [0]. In 2011, quad-core CPUs at 3.5 Ghz were the standard, probably a performance upgrade of an order of magnitude, at least. But since then? The i5 2500 does still hold a bit of water to the Ryzen 5 5600 [0]. Sure, it has more cores and more single-core performance, but it's nowhere near that much of a difference. Windows 10 still runs perfectly fine on this hardware, even better than Windows 7 did - and not by accident, MS did optimize that! This is absolutely a new low for Microsoft. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_microprocessors#Athlon_(Model_4,_%22Thunderbird%22,_180_nm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_microproces... [1] https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-2500-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5600X/m517vs4084 https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-2500-vs-... (yes, I know it's MemeBenchmark, but the general values should be solid enough)

poisonborz 5y ago

The requirements list will be most likely eased later on - IIRC it was also the case for virtually all major versions of Windows. The reason of this strictness is usually lack of testing or some compatibility features not being completed by the date of first release.

Gunax 5y ago
My guess is that they don't want people to blame the OS for their slow machine... I seem to remember reading years ago that vista was a victim of this (no way I can find that reference now though).

makecheck 5y ago

Whenever some “reason” is given to make a major foundational break from X to Y, it almost certainly does not apply to 90% of the things in the bundle. Various apps, system frameworks, etc. do not need to be held to the same minimums for hardware; they just are. We need to push for more modularity in the systems that serve as a foundation. Or, at least push for open-source or flexibility in the things that are not strictly foundational (and theoretically much more portable), such as bundled apps. Suppose for example there is a nice improvement to some bundled app in the next OS; in all likelihood, that change could be back-ported to several older versions and be usable on almost any hardware. It won’t be, because it is bundled to something that wants to break everything.

mdoms 5y ago

It will create heaps of machines which haven't been upgraded to Windows 11. I don't see why these are "trash".

dosenbrot 5y ago

> We should be extending the lives of existing machines as much as possible right now, encouraging people to purchase new computers right now is irresponsible. Not just now ..., our entire economy is based on shoving perfectly fine hardware into the trash. Microsoft is just a small part in this game. Also everyone talks about "eco friendly" and at the same time things like that happen: "you want the new operating system - buy complete new hardware - its just slightly better then the old one".

nfca 5y ago

Is there an actual risk of "heaps" of "trash"? If Windows 11 will not be an involuntary, forced update then woudln't existing hardware continue to run as it does today?

fungiblecog 5y ago

Our entire society functions on the idea that consumption is good. And our desire for more crap is destroying our planet's ability to sustain us indefinitely into the future. So whenever I hear all these complaints about companies acting in their interests - rather than for the common good - I wonder what planet I'm living on. Until we accept that governments not only have a right, but a duty, to force us to reduce our consumption - rather than encouraging it - we're going to continue down the drain. Market forces and greed will not fix this problem.

stephc_int13 5y ago

I do not plan to replace my computer until I need to. I still use screens from 2008, they are working perfectly fine and might live an other 12 years. If I can't install Win11 on my computer, then I'll simply won't install it before a long time. We're not in the 90s anymore.

Schnitz 5y ago

Or people just don’t upgrade Windows, like when they skipped Windows ME, Vista or 8 etc?

contingencies 5y ago

Ubuntu and by extension the broader Linux and open source ecosystem will benefit greatly from this decision.

andrewclunn 5y ago

You say trash, I say linux machines.

mastrsushi 5y ago

I've been using a late 2011 MacBook Pro with Ubuntu Mate. From my experience, not only are operating systems becoming over demanding in hardware specifications, but so are dynamic web pages and the internet as a whole. It's almost impossible to browse the internet with a 10 year old pc. Something that was a lot more forgiving with older hardware 8 to 10 years ago. Future generations are growing with TikTok, Instagram, and all these apps that demand complex rendering tasks and large streams of video data. This is raising the bar on hardware requirements.

young_unixer 5y ago

To think that all of this Microsoft bullshit could be the propeller for Linux adoption, if only Linux developers had good taste and had developed something worthy of replacing Windows for the average user.

swiley 5y ago
What exactly is wrong with Pop!_OS? I put it on my GF's laptop after she kept complaining about the machine slowing down and she's been very happy with it. The Thai IME even worked out of the box.
mackrevinack 5y ago
or if linux devs would work together instead of all trying to make their own thing. that said, i think the devs that work on elementary os have good taste by the looks of it. pop and zorin as well
wayneftw 5y ago
I switched to Linux for my workstations three years ago and never looked back. If Microsoft had developed anything worthy of replacing XFCE, bash and the Linux kernel... well I probably still wouldn't switch back because I just don't trust Microsoft with my work machines anymore. I still have Windows machines for games and streaming, but those are just my toys. I can take or leave them.
okamiueru 5y ago
What an utter weird comment. I've been using both OS-es, and gnome on Linux is miles ahead of windows in terms of UX and general usability. Windows feels clunky, there are always two ways to configure any one thing. The only thing that is better on Windows is certain software availability, which has very little to do with Windows itself. People really think Linux is a bad experience, when it hasn't been true for the past 5 years.

sys_64738 5y ago

Couldn't MS just open source W10 around then so the community can support it indefinitely?

advael 5y ago

I will once again register my hope that this causes at least a significant portion of windows subscribers to consider non-proprietary alternatives. Linux distros are fundamentally more useful computer systems, open source communities have done dizzying amounts of work to produce mostly-working interop with windows-exclusive software, as well as numerous FOSS alternatives to popular products. I'm not going to lie and say there's no switching cost at all (After all, a multi-billion dollar industry works tirelessly to ensure that it's as high as possible), but some linux distro or other has served as a good daily driver for a myriad of non-technical users across the globe, and technical support is readily available on the internet and in most cities. Good for your wallet, good for your freedom, good for the planet.

Havoc 5y ago
> Linux distros are fundamentally more useful computer systems Last I checked I can’t play 1080p Netflix on them so I’d say the above is questionable for the average user. Big fan too but the year of the Linux desktop is still a way off
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fordsmith 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure that is because of DRM, right? It's not that you _cant_ do it, but they _wont_ allow you. Ofc, there are otherr ways to achieve your goal.
  - Havoc 5y ago
    >I'm pretty sure that is because of DRM, right? It is yes. Doesn't matter for the average user though - it either works or it is broken. Technical users might give it a pass on freedom & principles grounding, but not average users.
- zorrolovsky 5y ago
  Are you serious? My debian and ubuntu computers can play 4k streaming without problems! (youtube, twitch, etc). I don't see a reason why linux can't play 4K. Could you please elaborate?

twoozen 5y ago

This is the implicit deal Microsoft has with the hardware manufacturers. “We make new Windows, you back it and you’ll sell new machines.” It’s a very deliberate move because it absolutely requires purchase of new machines. It’s not an oversight or an accident, it’s a lever.

BuckRogers 5y ago

I've never seen this site be so aggressively crying about their machines not supporting Windows 11, after a decade plus of crying about Micro$oft in general. No matter what they do, they're always wrong. It's time for you to install Linux Mint. The suffering of HN must come to an end. To change requirements, a new version was necessary. They can't cut off support on Windows 10 from old hardware which has until 2025, so this is how it has to be. I have a new i9-11900K build that's the snappiest thing I've laid hands on, and I'm eagerly awaiting Windows 11. Microsoft has done far too little of this type of cutting off of old hardware, and no one here knows the exact details on why they chose those generations of chips. There's more to it but no one at MS is going to sit and debate with you, it's just the way it is.

xavor 5y ago

Why do people always complain? If someone sells something with requirements - it is their choice and not down to people whinging because they want the latest thing but can't due to XYZ. This world doesn't owe you squat. Note - my personally built PC doesn't have a TPM, but when I get round to it I may purchase one and then upgrade - and I won't friggin' moan.

sjg007 5y ago

So will 5G…

phendrenad2 5y ago

Do people on Hacker News even use Windows? Seems like a bunch of MacWorld and LinuxJournal posters come here to talk trash.

TomatoTomato 5y ago

Even 2 year old $1-$2k 18 core 9980XE's aren't compatible. That's crazy.

barney54 5y ago

Microsoft has spent a ton of time lately bolstering their green credentials--such as this recent pledge to be carbon negative by 2030. https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-b... But then they show that those pledges are all windows dressing when it comes to obsoleting perfectly acceptable computers with Windows 11...

joshsyn 5y ago

I don't believe there is a shortage, when only few companies have a strong hold on their supply.

jhanschoo 5y ago

> If Microsoft truly believes that encrypting your drive is going to stop Moldovan teenagers from hitting your PC with ransomware, maybe a TPM is the solution. After all, security is all about feelings rather than safety. If “encryption at rest” makes consumers feel at ease, so be it. Tangent on this point: the TPM is obviously useful for corporate users who want hassle-free encryption at rest, but also massively lucrative for software publishers seeking to implement DRM.

ineedasername 5y ago

Most consumers don't purchase OS updates. Consumer licenses for Windows are miniscule, so very few people will buy a new computer just to get Windows 11. Corporations may upgrade more regularly, but if they have to buy new hardware to do it then they will probably just wait until their next hardware upgrade cycle. That may achieve the opposite of what the author fears.

roody15 5y ago

“ Requiring TPM 1.2 is sort of reasonable I guess. But TPM 2.0. You've got to be kidding me.” I disagree here. There is no reason (IMO) to require TPM for home machines or gamer/enthusiasts. Microsoft should instead fully support TPM 1.2 and 2.x so that in work/enterprise situations can fully utilize TPM when/if needed.

Sanzig 5y ago
I'm fine with Microsoft requiring TPMs for Windows 11 installs on new build OEM machines - that's fine. Requiring it on existing hardware is asinine, there's no clear technical reason to do so.

ineedasername 5y ago

I read the whole thing twice, but don't see where the author details which HW reqs are problematic.

scq 5y ago
It's the CPU requirements. Windows 11 only supports Intel 8th gen (launched in 2017), Ryzen 2000 (launched in 2018), and newer CPUs.

jdlyga 5y ago

It's not just the TPM. It's requiring 8th generation or later Intel processors and the equivalent for AMD. Microsoft still sells machines with incompatible processors for Windows 11. Yet we're all going to be losing support for Windows 10 in a few years. That's the main problem.

pcdoodle 5y ago

Microsoft: Keep VB6 and WIN32 support, you get a pass. Sometimes shit just needs to get done.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fomine3 5y ago

Mandating TPM2 is somewhat looks reasonable, but killing Skylake/Zen1 is pretty weird. Difference between Kaby/Coffee and Zen1/Zen+ is very small. Killing Broadwell/pre-Zen looks a bit reasonable. (even still not good)

jestar_jokin 5y ago

I think this article misunderstands the list of supported processors. The Microsoft page is for hardware developers, e.g. laptop and desktop manufacturers. They shouldn't be using CPUs that aren't currently manufactured/supported anyway. I don't think it restricts anyone running Windows on their existing older hardware. I'm still on an i7 4790K, and it's not listed as a supported CPU in the lists for Windows 10.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

i'll panic when my 2014 laptop bricks after windows 10 tries to update to win 11, but I believe that won't happen and I always backup my valuable data anyway.

rasz 5y ago

If you are a gamer and think you can stay on Win10 think again. Microsoft already announced DirectStorage arbitrarily Windows 11 exclusive. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/gaming-on-windows-11-directstorage-api-auto-hdr-will-require-os-update/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/gaming-on-windows-11-... There is a slight chance they might back down, like they did with DirectX 12 on Windows 7 support after huge backlash and pressure from Blizzard. That one took 4 years of slow win10 adoption (2015-2019) and angry game studios.

ostenning 5y ago

Windows is a stinker, basically corporate spyware at this point akin to Amazon Echo

webinvest 5y ago

Windows 98: good then. Windows 2000: not great. Windows XP: pretty good. Windows Vista: not good. Windows 7: pretty good Windows 8: not good. Windows 10: pretty good. Windows 11: _guess?_ Can you fill in the pattern? Microsoft’s history speaks for itself. Older HN members can probably comment about Microsoft’s earlier history and see how far back this pattern goes.