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Satellite imagery shows Northern California kelp forests have collapsed
- rektide 6y agothe systematic ecodestruction of climate change is so much easier to ignore but it feels just so scary. humans can adapt but new homes & redevelop. at a cost. but who will help the planet?
- nradov 6y agoIt's not clear how much of a factor climate change is. Most of the sea stars have died due to a wasting disease, and so the urchin population exploded and they ate much of the kelp. The sea stars might have been weakened by warmer water several years ago but California has always experienced occasional situations like that due to the El Niño current.
- neolog 6y agoThey drew the kelp on the picture, it's not a picture of kelp.
- geuis 6y agoWhat are you referring to?
- neolog 6y agoThe difference between the pictures is that the "before" picture has yellow shading but the "after" picture doesn't have any yellow shading. I don't see any kelp in either picture.
- lanternfish 6y agoThe image description calls it "gold shading", I don't think there's anything to indicate it's an actual picture of kelp.
- neolog 6y ago"Satellite Imagery Shows ..." -- if the satellite imagery showed something, why doesn't the graphic show it, instead of some yellow dots overlaid on satellite imagery?
- lanternfish 6y agoBecause it might not show the answer to a human? In their methods they say that they employed a technique called multiple endmember spectral mixture analysis which looks to me to be a probabilistic model which performs well over a large data set, like the one they draw from. It's not just a single image they use, but a bunch, each with small spectra differences which indicate areas of cover. EDIT: Their methods also say that `Bull kelp forests are readily identified by multiple existing high spatial resolution satellite and airborne platforms because their floating surface canopies have strong reflectance in the near-infrared, similar to terrestrial vegetation`, so you wouldn't be able to see the difference anyways.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- enriquto 6y ago> because their floating surface canopies have strong reflectance in the near-infrared, similar to terrestrial vegetation`, so you wouldn't be able to see the difference anyways. This is not true. You can certainly look at the near infrared channel of an image (it is just a regular gray-scale image anyway) and see right away the vegetation.
- knowaveragejoe 6y agoAre you looking at the paper or the image in the article?
- chabes 6y agoThe “after” picture doesn’t have obvious gold patches because over 95% of the kelp is literally gone
- mutagen 6y agoThe paper and a repo a few clicks away with better figures and explanations of how they're obtained.
- aboringusername 6y agoI mean you can't have 8 billion needy, constantly consuming humans for 60/70 years and somehow have a sustainable, vibrant and healthy ecosystem. You can't have all the modern day luxuries (cars, airplanes, electricity 24/7) and somehow expect everything to just "hum" along. I think news reports like these will become more common, more frequent and a natural byproduct of how things are now, regardless as to whether human activity/climate change is the cause. I am uncertain about this whole "2030" neutrality thing, why not 2025? Why not next year? We're not very good at setting ambitious targets nor making people suffer for the benefit of nature (I'm sure somewhere there is a "link" between this event and the devastating impact humans are having on the natural world as we know it) Even a pandemic didn't have much effect whereas in previous times tens of millions would've been expected to die. Cue another attenborough documentary telling us how everything is basically screwed...Somehow he would convince us about how fossil fuels is directly responsible for this activity taking place...
- TedShiller 6y agoIt’s funny how we are aware of the damage, and yet everyone still wants to live like a millionaire It’s not possible.
- dominotw 6y ago> It’s not possible. Why not. You can live like a millionaire and not have kids. Having a kid is many factors worse than living a millionaire.
- oivey 6y agoReally, really depends on how you live. People in first world countries are worse for the environment than people in third world countries by a wide margin per capita.
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- nradov 6y agoI have been diving in the Monterey, CA region since 1999 and have seen the change first hand. Sunflower sea stars are now extinct in the area; I haven't seen one in years. Some of the smaller sea star species have started to gradually recover but they aren't effective at preying on purple urchins. There is a local group culling urchins but they'll only be able to cover a small area. https://g2kr.com/ https://g2kr.com/
- m-ee 6y agoAre the local purple urchins edible?
- Ericson2314 6y agohttps://www.splendidtable.org/story/2018/07/26/why-we-should-be-eating-more-purple-sea-urchins https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2018/07/26/why-we-should... Perhaps yes, but I doubt that can undo the damage done without an overcorrection and more issues.
- dylan604 6y agoThis is the sad state of humans trying to help or fix mother nature. In almost every instance, the fix results in one of those "oh, didn't think of that" kind of things. I don't know the lady swallowed the dog to chase the cat to catch the bird to eat the spider to catch the fly. It's a literal nursery rhyme we teach kids.
- shkkmo 6y agoWhile that is true of trying to introduce new species to predate over-populated species (or really any novel species introduction), there is a long history of humans successfully managing their own predation to help balance over/under populated species. Obviously we have had failure in this area too but it we do know it is possible for us to do it and improve things.
- kortilla 6y ago
- Havoc 6y agoWell I guess that eco collapse is really coming. Jikes
- mutagen 6y agoThe Nature paper is available: https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-021-01827-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-021-01827-6 and there's a Github repo available: https://github.com/mmcph005/PyMESMA.git https://github.com/mmcph005/PyMESMA.git
- christiansakai 6y agoA bit tangentially off topic. Today I encountered this book titled "False Alarm". It is supposed to be the book that is quite balanced in perspective in terms of environmental crisis. I'm going to get it. But first I'm curious of HN readers who have read the book, what do you think of it?
- JohnJamesRambo 6y agoIt looks like climate change denial nonsense.
- christiansakai 6y agoHave you read about it?
- lumost 6y agoAssuming this is the book "False Alarm: How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet" I don't think you can seriously take it as a piece of serious balanced research. The book titles itself based on what it is, which is the same thing as hundreds of other books peddling cherry picked facts to say that the "establishment" is wrong on climate change. These books take whatever micro-divergence from climate models is currently being observed and trump it up as a refutation of all climate models and of the entire macro-trend. 15 years ago it was the lack of deep ocean warming which has now been observed. I'm sure that in 2021 there are innumerable discrepancies and poorly understood phenomena which could be used for this purpose.
- perl4ever 6y ago> a refutation of all climate models and of the entire macro-trend Is this Lomborg you're saying is a denier? What are you basing that on? I can believe that he is encouraging others who want to do nothing about climate change, but I didn't think he was objectively a denier. People calling him one may be playing into his shtick.
- bbarn 6y agoThe day I proposed to my wife on a beach north of Monterey, we found a nearly perfect abalone shell on the beach. To this day she uses it to store her jewelry in. Saddens me to think that no one else will ever find one of these mother of pearl treasures there again without the kelp forests intact.
- tenken 6y agoI see your point. But most national parks forbid taking natural items such as rocks, shells, etc. If everyone takes an item from the park there's no park left for future generations anyways. Kelp forest or no kelp forest ... https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/local/2018/02/03/eco-tip-californias-beaches-arent-there-taking/302733002/ https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/local/2018/02/03/eco-tip-c...
- jdavis703 6y agoGenerally the US National Park Services allows people to take two gallons of uninhabited shells from national seashores.
- nradov 6y agoThe larger abalone had already been wiped out in the Monterey area by sea otters and withering syndrome even before the purple urchins ate most of the kelp. Otters are the primary predators for abalone and when the otters were hunted nearly to extinction then the abalone population exploded. But then otters were protected so they ate many of the abalone, and withering syndrome killed others. I still occasionally see small abalone while diving. https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Laboratories/Shellfish-Health/Abalone-Diseases https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Laboratories/Shellfish-...
- shartshooter 6y agoOne reason we don't have kelp forests in Oregon is due to sea otters having been wiped out, which kept the urchins at bay.[0] Unfortunately, according to OPs article: Others have suggested bringing in another kelp forest predator, the sea otter, to help fight back the urchins. The problem with this appears to be that sea otters aren’t so interested in the skinny, starved urchins occupying the most barren areas, reports Anuradha Varanasi for Inverse. A separate study published this week in the journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggests the otters do eat urchins but that they prefer the more well-fed residents of the coast’s remaining kelp forests to the so-called “zombie urchins” clinging to life in the denuded barrens. [0] - https://oregonwild.org/about/blog/lost-sea-otters-oregon-part-four https://oregonwild.org/about/blog/lost-sea-otters-oregon-par...
- shadowfaxRodeo 6y agoThe podcast "How to save a Planet" did an interesting two parter on kelp farming as a climate solution. If anyone is interested: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/94h3rvm/kelp-farming-for-the-climate https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/94h3rvm/kelp-...
- warmwaffles 6y agoAnother solution is to utilize algae, but it would destroy ecosystems at the scale we'd need it. Still a fun thought exercise.
- elevaet 6y agoKelp _is_ algae
- lisper 6y agoThis is unbelievably sad. I learned to scuba dive in southern California in the early 90s. Kelp was ubiquitous back then, and it harbored all manner of marine life. Swimming through a kelp forest was a magical experience. No more. :-(
- boulos 6y agoAdjacent topic: My Octopus Teacher [1] was a fascinating view into a single kelp forest and occupant that folks here might enjoy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher
- abootstrapper 6y agoI enjoyed it, but damn that dude is hella privileged.
- therealdrag0 6y agoFurther adjacent, Subnautica is a fantastic game for exploring underwater (albiet on an alien planet).
- h0l0cube 6y agoThe same thing has happened to giant kelp off the coast of Tasmania https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-02-27/tasmania-giant-kelp-forests-disappearing-global-ocean-warming/11209188?nw=0 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-02-27/tasmania-gian...
- pvaldes 6y agosame thing also in the north of Spain with equivalent species of macroalgae. Temperature raised a few degrees, recruitment stopped, and most laminaria submarine forests vanished.
- chriselles 6y agoI spent a lot of time kayaking around Monterey in 2016. A couple of observations. We were constantly reminded to maintain distance from endangered Sea Otters. The Sea Otters were pretty cool, but it quickly became annoying at trying to avoid and maintain distance from them as they seemed to be as common as cockroaches. And the kelp. Trying to avoid the aforementioned Sea Otters required kayaking thru massive kelp beds, which was like kayaking thru spaghetti. This was along Cannery Row and the local Marine Reserve. I certainly hope it’s as frustratingly awesome full of sea otters and kelp like it was 5 years ago. Super cool, and long may it continue. I only wish I could have dived it.
- TaylorAlexander 6y agoI visited Monterey in 2014 and what really struck me were the skinny, dying, and dead seals on the rocks of the boat harbor. Perhaps it was always that way but it really seemed like the dying gasps of an ecosystem wiped out by human activity. I had to actually stop and cry for a while at the horror of it all. Then I went to the museum at the mission and saw how little space and time they gave to the native people who once lived there. A few quick mentions at the beginning. Loads of stories about Spanish and American conquerors, and then a sad diorama showing their beautiful hand made garments right by the exit when the kids are tired and everyone wants to get to the next place. It was a very sad day.
- nradov 6y agoI saw a bunch of sea otters in that area today. The population seems to be fairly healthy, although it's difficult for researchers to get a precise count. Kelp forests have been reduced. https://www.usgs.gov/centers/werc/science/california-sea-otter-surveys-and-research?qt-science_center_objects=4#qt-science_center_objects https://www.usgs.gov/centers/werc/science/california-sea-ott...
- CobrastanJorji 6y agoIf I learned one thing from Octonauts videos, it's that sea otters eat purple sea urchins. So while sea urchins are terrible for kelp forests, they're great for large sea otter populations.
- forgotmypw17 6y agoMany comments here wondering what an individual can do... I'll tell you what I've done in order to stop feeling complicit. I stopped buying anything "new" unless I absolutely cannot live without it. Not all at once, but one thing at a time, I looked for alternatives and pulled the trigger.
- readflaggedcomm 6y agoYour self-absolution does not a scientific solution make.
- forgotmypw17 6y agoI don't understand what you're saying here...
- kortilla 6y agoYour individual reductions in consumption are pointless here. If you just ceased to exist it would not meaningfully move the needle. At this point we need hard societal pressure via laws to make any kind of statistical difference. I’d prefer someone be a hypocrite pushing for legislation to reduce emissions (e.g. Al Gore on a private jet) than someone who reduces locally and calls it good. There are just too many people that don’t care for “local action” to stop the impending doom.
- mucholove 6y agoBetter to sing on a sinking ship than to die frustrated, angry and victimized. There is grace in fighting against impending doom. Life can be measured by how we approach things. Never lose hope. :)
- aardvarkr 6y agoOr better to steer the ship using the levers of power that are available to those in power. Fighting a losing battle results in a loss regardless of how valiant the fight. Do what you can to have the greatest impact, which means working with those in power to make societal change.
- Taniwha 6y agoWe have similar problems in places here in New Zealand urchin barrens are taking over from kelp - here it's thought to be caused by over fishing taking out the larger/older fish that previously kept the urchins (kina) under control. Kina are considered a delicacy here, but as mentioned here the kina in the barrens are underfed and not worth eating
- del_operator 6y agoTime to call Nancy Caruso.
- del_operator 6y agoI worked in Orange County in college on a project to restore the White Sea Bass after the kelp forests were restored there. I really appreciated that experience in aquarium sciences and oceanography. I also liked seeing how much fisherman seemed onboard with the program. I hope a network of volunteers in Northern California can have some success rebuilding the kelp ecosystem.
- CameronNemo 6y agoI was a small part of the project in high school. We took care of sea bass in a room in the school, and released them in the harbor near where I live. Nancy Caruso accompanied my class on that day and on a diving excursion, IIRC.
- WalterBright 6y agoIt wouldn't be helpful in this case, but I've long thought that the US should create marine "national parks" in the coastal waters. Within those parks, no fishing would be allowed, and no motorized boats.
- shagie 6y agoA national seashore, but with a few more constraints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_lakeshores_and_seashores_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_lakeshores_an...
- rsync 6y agoThese exist ... I know that, for instance, La Jolla Cove is one such marine reserve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jolla_Cove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jolla_Cove
- fuzzfactor 6y agoIn Forida, John Pennekamp Coral Reef State Park is underwater. http://pennekamppark.com/ http://pennekamppark.com/
- samatman 6y agoThere's precedent, Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument covers the uninhabited northwestern islands of the Hawaiian archipelago, their surrounding waters, and Midway Atoll. It's several times the size of the state of Hawaii. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papahānaumokuākea_Marine_National_Monument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papahānaumokuākea_Marine_Natio...
- justatdotin 6y agofive years ago half the coast of australia suffered massive dieback of mangroves, coral and sea grass. The worst I saw was mangroves around the Gulf of Carpentaria, and my immediate assumption was the dirty lead mine nearby, but then people around the country started connecting dots to other intertidal and coastal failures that started to all line up until the entire northern coast was implicated. The broad impact, coupled with records, suggested that this was a response to a season of low rainfall in the context of sustained elevated sea temperatures. recovery has been very gradual, as predicted.
- mleonhard 6y agoThis sounds like a natural ecological process. New diseases appear regularly and disrupt ecosystems until the victim species develop resistance.
- mikeg8 6y agoNatural ecological processes rarely play out to this extent on a 10 year scale though. And the problem with the bull kelp species is that it is in and of itself a complete ecosystem to so many sub species below it.
- pinipedman 6y agoSo, you think this is unrelated to human activities?
- jokoon 6y agoUnless climate issues affect humans and their comfort of consumers, nothing will change.
- mikeg8 6y agoI started free diving for abalone along the Sonoma coast in 2008. The first few years of diving were plentiful and majestic. But my friends and I noticed the changes around 2015. Less sunflower stars and star fish. After some red tide events, the abalone die offs were crazy. Coves that used to have abs stacked on top of each other were almost empty. Finding a 9” abalone became a chore. The thinner kelp forests meant less fish, less life. It’s been difficult to watch first hand. I get sad thinking about the reality that my children will most likely never see the underwater forests that filled my soul and gave me a deep love of the ocean. I hope we can help the system get back in balance.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- lrem 6y agoWe likely won't, at least nowhere near the 20th century balance. For all the new tree saplings planted elsewhere, Brazil straight burns down old growth in the rainforest. For all the wind and solar installed by the rich countries, poor countries are happy for the cheaper coal. Replacing nuclear base power with fossil fuels doesn't help too. Even if we ever do manage to come together and fund active carbon capture, it will take decades to reverse the trend. And then possibly centuries for the oceans to de-acidify. Together with active efforts to burn down nature in the places where most biodiversity remains, the mass extinction even is likely to run its course before we get to a stable ecosystem. Sure we can restore most of the biomass, but it will be much fewer species. And letting the nature run its course will, naturally, take millions of years.
- marricks 6y agoWhile your comment isn’t factually wrong it’s phrased to almost blame the poorer countries. Brazil burns down forest mainly because of the United State’s desire for think like soy beans to feed cows. Poorer countries use coal because it’s cheap and global conditions don’t enrich them enough to get better sources. The sad truth is we force countries to be poor and exploit their own resources so we don’t have to do it ourselves. And of course then we’ll all pay the price living on a dying planet.
- diveanon 6y agoThe oceans have been dying for decades, no one cares enough to take a loss this quarter. Our children will never forgive us for destroying their inheritance.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rixrax 6y agoHow are the Channel islands, southern CA coastline in general and e.g. Guadalupe island south of the border doing? Is situation any better down there?
- psychiatrist24 6y agoAccording to the article, the purple sea urchins are starving. Maybe this will balance out eventually, as other predator/prey cycles in nature?
- tomrod 6y agoUnclear. Ecosystem collapse is hard to predict.
- HNfriend234 6y agoYes they're starving but without a natural predator to them then they will just rebound if kelp grows back. The article did mention that the starfish predator of the urchin died from a mystery disease. I wonder if that starfish was reintroduced into the area if it would be able to survive again or simply die from the disease again. I think the key to fixing this issue is to figure out the reason the starfish died of the disease. Then it might be possible to mitigate for that.
- psychiatrist24 6y agoOr wait for a mysterious disease to kill off the urchins. Or maybe some starfish develop immunity to the disease.
- ryan_j_naughton 6y agoThere is a company called Urchinomics that is catching the purple urchins, then feeding them in a land based environment, then selling them worldwide as high quality uni.[1][2] The reason this is critical is that purple urchins can effectively starve themselves and go into hibernation with a virtually empty body. This virtually empty body is not desirable for either (a) traditional fisherman or (b) any predators (e.g. even fish that eat urchin know to not eat the urchins that have overgrazed a kelp forest as they know they are empty. If Urchinomics can get the unit economics to work out such that there is a financial incentive to catch a significant number of these urchin, that could change this situation. [1] https://www.urchinomics.com/ https://www.urchinomics.com/ [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/09/09/756929657/saving-californias-kelp-forest-may-depend-on-eating-purple-sea-urchins https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/09/09/756929657/sa...
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- tremon 6y agoIf there will be a financial incentive to catch a significant number of these urchin, they might die out too.
- nradov 6y agoThere are millions and millions of purple urchins along the California coast. Rocks in many areas are literally covered in urchins. In order to harvest them you have to pry them off one at a time so they're not going to die out that way.
- killion 6y agoThank you for sharing this, I hope they find a California location soon. Because they are filter-feeders I would guess they are as helpful as oyster farms for cleaning the water. As long as they are contained that is.
- kilroy123 6y agoWould sea farming like this organization does help the situation? https://www.greenwave.org/ https://www.greenwave.org/
- jxramos 6y agoWhere are these purple sea urchins coming from?
- mutatio 6y agoIt seems the parameters for healthy ocean ecosystems is much tighter than on land and much more sensitive to change. The UK has similar issues (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/catastrophic-uk-has-lost-90-of-seagrass-meadows-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/catastro...) and Australia is well documented. Outside of mechanical damage and over fishing, it's hard to know what could help, you can't really adjust ocean conditions, it's just too vast - for example something fundamental in relation to temperature and water acidity has changed meaning you can't just replant, it'd just suffer the same fate. It kind of implies to save the oceans climate change needs to be improved globally.
- baremetal 6y agoFukushima happened in 2011. This article states the dieoffs of starfish and kelp began 8 years ago. I wonder if there is a connection? Considering all the Plutonium flooding into the pacific. Plutonium the most TOXIC substance known to man. Its not even the radiation, its chemically toxic.
- pvaldes 6y agoPlus other mass mortalities of marine animals in Peru, Chile , etc that where blamed to climate and put under the rug. I'm not denying a role of climate change on that, just that we don't know what really happened but they positively happened after Fukushima. Marine pathology is not easy, invertebrate viruses are practically unexplored, and you need to allow a resources to study that (Hint: Will not happen, because... hum, would be embarrasing)
- ra 6y agoSame thing happening here: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2020/feb/24/the-dead-sea-tasmanias-underwater-forests-disappearing-in-our-lifetime https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2020/...
- pvaldes 6y agoA very interesting experiment would be kelp transplant in floating cages out of the reach of urchins. We could learn something about it.
- david38 6y agoI am a diver in NorCal and regularly participate in sea urchin culling. The state had been horrible at allowing ANY action to combat the kelp forest collapse. A blight wiped out the sea stars. The lack of sea stars caused a 100x jump in urchin population. Urchins eat kelp. Worst yet, they only eat the bottom part, and then 99% of the kelp floats away. The state banned even the most modest actions. You need a fishing license to harvest urchins. You could only harvest 20 per day. Recently it’s upped to unlimited though. You had to harvest the urchin, which is way more involved than simply smashing them with a hammer. Smashing in NorCal is only allowed in a spot in Monterey and Fort Bragg. The myth that smashing leads to spawning was laid to rest long ago and yet the authorities were still paralyzed. The paralysis lasted so long that everything is just a barren desert. Sea urchins can live 100 years in a semi dormant starvation state. This isn’t some case where letting them starve out for a season will bring back the kelp.