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Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via subsea cable
- vijayr02 6y agoI wonder what the Turkish response to this is going to be? As background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/turkey-insists-on-right-to-drill-for-energy-reserves-off-cyprus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/turkey-insists...
- iso1631 6y agoEven if you were to believe that Northern Cyprus was an independent country, or part of Turkey, this cable passes through Israeli, Cypriot and Greek waters, to the south of the island
- throwawayffffas 6y agoYou can see the conflicting claims here, https://www.sigmaturkey.com/energy-and-geopolitics-in-the-axis-of-eastern-mediterranean-and-cyprus-part-3/ https://www.sigmaturkey.com/energy-and-geopolitics-in-the-ax... Edit: It should be noted the article takes a pro-Turkish stand, but it does demonstrate the conflicting claims.
- iso1631 6y agoSo it seems that Turkey wants to ignore Greek EEZ, which seems to be acknowleged by other neighbours including Egypt. From the limited maps showing it seems this pipeline never gets nearer to Turkey or even Northern Cyprus than to Cyprus or Greece, thus remains in their EEZ under the UN Convention on the Law of The Sea It seems Turkey's view is that countries like Malta, Cyprus, Cuba, New Zealand etc can't have EEZs, let alone islands that are part of a country, like Shetland, Hawaii, the Aleutian islands, etc. Now sure they can claim whatever they want, but with EU, US and UN against them it's rather moot.
- tpoacher 6y agoThis hasn't stopped Turkey from laying claim on oil reserves found on the south side of the island. So why should this be any different?
- siculars 6y agoMany articles in Turkish run media. But in reality? Not much.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoThere's no negative impact on Turkey apart from making it more difficult for them to blockade Cyprus (which would be a highly aggressive move, anyway)
- bszupnick 6y agoThe "negative impact" is Cyprus being recognized as a sovereign.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoCyprus is a member of the EU, it is recognised internationally, it is a member of the UN... an electric cable is nothing.
- brmgb 6y agoCyprus is a member of the EU and has been recognized as a sovereign country by pretty much everyone already. The northern part called the TRNC and under Turkish control isn't however.
- baybal2 6y agoThey will have to acknowledge the territorial waters as Greek, or go, and do something about it.
- ulucs 6y agoIt isn't even acknowledged in the news right now, so probably nothing
- Denvercoder9 6y agoProbably not too much. Turkey is already part of and synchronized to the continental European grid. Connecting Cyprus to it makes sense for them as well.
- Qahlel 6y agoI don't understand Greece's actions in this matter. Why is Greece so keen on poking Turkey rather than working together? There is no winners in this lose-lose scenario. This is like trying to go Manhattan from NJ without entering NY. I mean... it's impossible. (Greek nationals doesn't seem to like this comment)
- PartiallyTyped 6y agoThings would have been better had Turkey tried to actually cooperate for once, instead of repeatedly provoking and going as far as invading Greece's and Cyprus' EEZs.
- p_papageorgiou 6y agoWhys is this considered poking? I think the interpretation of this is highly linked to political interpretation.
- ddddq 6y agoBecause turks are really nationalistic and they see everything as a threat and they see themself always a victim. Like they see a country with a population of 10 millions provoking a country with 82 million inhabitants, just because Israel wants to link their power grid to Europe. Talking of poking and insecurity, how is it even possible to see Israel connecting their power grid to Europe as poking by Greece? Why should Greece, Cyprus and Israel ask Turkey first, if doesn't go through turkish sea and land?
- csunbird 6y agoDisclaimer: I am Turkish and I live in Europe. I mean, the dispute between Turkey and Greece mostly is about the islands that are literally 5 to 10kms away from Turkish mainland and Greece trying to claim the whole Aegan See for themselves, citing the islands are her waters and there a LOT of islands, enough to cover Aegean See and isolating Turkey’s west shores. It causes a dispute, since if Greece would have their way, Turkey would not even be able to use her west shores. Greece invading west Turkey in WW1 does not help either. The conflicts are really feels like children arguing with each other. Both parties needs to stop, but I think both governments/ruling parties enjoy nationalist votes from fueling this dispute. Other countries, who have interest in this dispute, does not help either.
- apples_oranges 6y agoEE noob question: Could it be dangerous if a cable were damaged in the (salty) sea?
- stmw 6y agoThe cables are well-protected, but if they are damaged - same as with HV overhead lines - there is protection circuitry on both sides that trips and shuts off the power. So it will limit the damage to the rest of the grid, but you probably wouldn't want to be scuba-diving next to the cable when that happens.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoalso, what's stopping an antagonist from severing the cable?
- doctoboggan 6y agoSame thing that is stopping them from cutting other power lines: laws, and punishment for breaking those laws.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoI mean countries in time of war. Presumably that is one of the Emergencies for which this cable is intended.
- ceejayoz 6y agoNo, not really. In a war footing, the power plants themselves would likely be targets; the cables are fairly irrelevant. This sort of interconnect lets spikes in consumer demand get smoothed out.
- petertodd 6y agoThe cables are extremely relevant: it is far harder to protect hundreds of kilometres of underwater cable, of which any part can be cut by a difficult to detect submarine, than it is to protect power plants.
- _Microft 6y agoThis has a Wikipedia entry already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAsia_Interconnector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAsia_Interconnector
- algorithm314 6y agoWhich is mostly an advertisement. Probably the main author is linked to the Euroasia Interconnector. Also note that there is little reference for the Greek part of the interconnector for which there was a great debate. Greece decided to create the part connecting Crete with Attica on it's own citing delays that cost Greece hundrends of millions a year because it is forced to operate diesel plants in Crete. Also Greece also has the longest and deepest AC connection in the world under construction (2 cables connecting Peloponesse with Crete). One of the cables is already operational.
- capableweb 6y ago> Which is mostly an advertisement. Probably the main author is linked to the Euroasia Interconnector. Maybe, but judging by the history page(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EuroAsia_Interconnector&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EuroAsia_Intercon...), it was initially created by someone in the US and later edited by a diverse set of editors. So unlikely the entire page is an advertisement. If you see some specific snippets you think don't fit on Wikipedia, Be Bold and delete them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold)
- algorithm314 6y agoThe person I was refering is Karaol. Even the top image that is described as his own work and is used in the main Euroasia site without any attribution. You can see the image in the main site here https://euroasia-interconnector.com/at-glance/the-big-picture/ https://euroasia-interconnector.com/at-glance/the-big-pictur... The article fails to address the controversy between Greece and Euroasia interconnector. The only reference I can find is that in the top image, the line connecting Attika and Crete became dashed at some time. Also Greece cited that Ariadne interconnector is a company with only 25k capital and no previous completed project.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoWill lots of electricity be lost in transmission? Also, this article is very scant on information, why is this project mutually beneficial for Greece, Cyprus and Israel? I understand a bit the other commenter who thinks it's in order to poke Turkey in the eye.
- siculars 6y agoGreece, Cyprus and Israel are natural allies in the geo political oneupsmanship that is the middle east. Israel provides the technology and protection to execute this maneuver.
- RobertoG 6y agoI think you are underestimating greatly Greece military capabilities with that comment.
- siculars 6y agoNo, I’m fairly confident in that comment. Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-strongest-military-forces-middle-east/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-st... https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-nations-2020-comparing-global-armed-forces/ https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-...
- herodoturtle 6y ago> Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. Those rankings are accurate when looking through the lens of "how many offensive resources do they have", but when you say "on virtually any dimension" I think one needs to also take geography into account. For example Switzerland is also ranked well below Israel, but good luck invading the Swiss on their home turf.
- anonu 6y agoThis is awesome. The real loser in all of this is Lebanon. 30 years after the end of the civil war there, and 24-hour electricity is a pipe dream. People still rely on neighborhood generators that contribute to the already bad pollution.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoLebanon is in an awful state. they seem to be little more than a satellite of Iran via Hezbollah. I haven't heard anything about them since that terrible explosion in Beirut. i hope they get sorted out soon.
- baybal2 6y agoHow it is? It's a majority christian country!
- anonu 6y agoUsing a 1932 census. Let's get real...
- ceejayoz 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Government_and_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Government_and_politic... > Lebanon is a parliamentary democracy that includes confessionalism, in which high-ranking offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups. The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim, the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Deputy Speaker of Parliament Eastern Orthodox. > Lebanon's national legislature is the unicameral Parliament of Lebanon. Its 128 seats are divided equally between Christians and Muslims, proportionately between the 18 different denominations and proportionately between its 26 regions.
- fennecfoxen 6y agoThis is the country with multiple cabinet ministers from Hezbollah. Perhaps "how" is through these and similar vehicles.
- Waterluvian 6y agoHow do you sync phases? Do you just slightly slow one down until they're aligned and then flip a breaker? I'm sure it's more complex than this, if the case.
- progre 6y agoIt's DC so no phases to sync.
- pjc50 6y agoThat is the traditional way of bringing generators into sync, yes, but these links are nearly always DC links with inverters at each end. The inverter will be digitally controlled to distributed the DC power across the three phases in sync with the grid. So the two AC grids do not have to be synced.
- throwaway894345 6y agoOthers have mentioned a ~5% loss for the cable transmission, but what are the losses for converting to AC?
- Waterluvian 6y agoOh I see. That makes sense. But I always thought DC was a pretty poor option for long distance transmission of power?
- krastanov 6y agoIt is the opposite, high voltage DC is much better for long distance, because at such distances the powerlines themselves start acting as inductors with relatively large impedance.
- gimmeThaBeet 6y agoAlso, while the cable capacitance above ground usually isn't negligible, it's definitely not when you talk about underground.
- WJW 6y agoPerhaps they should try and broker a peace with Israel like Jordania and Egypt have done. Access to the power sharing agreement could be an interesting bargaining chip for both parties. There is a lot to gain for Lebanon (more stable power, less expenses on the military) and also a lot of potential benefits for Israel (less threat from the north, overland (railway) transport possibilities to the European mainland). (Yes, I know the influence of Hezbollah over Lebanese politics makes this development unlikely. I'm just saying it would be a good idea for both countries to get closer together. Source: I used to be in the military and served as a UN military observer in the region.)
- sgt 6y agoYes, I think people need to just accept that Israel is a part of the middle east and is not going anywhere. It's in everyone's best interest to become friendly with Israel, and that will help the neighboring countries prosper.
- solosoyokaze 6y agoIsrael commits massive human rights violations and is aggressively and illegally expanding its borders (which were a colonization project from the start). No one should support or work with them and the US should stop funding Israel.
- falcor84 6y agoI don't want to get into the rest of your argument, but just wanted to say that based on my reading of history, pretty much all of the borders on Earth "were a colonization project from the start".
- solosoyokaze 6y agoImportant to remember but not quite the same as colonizing a region in the 20th century. This isn’t the distant past, it’s actively happening.
- crmd 6y agoAs a DC interconnect, does this mean their respective grids will not be synchronized?
- Ottolay 6y agoYes. There would be no need to be synchronized if the interconnect is only DC.
- btbuildem 6y agoImpressive agreement given the historical.. tensions between these nations.
- sradman 6y agoWow, I'd like to hear more about the subsea cable [1] technology used. In terms of economics and geopolitics, this sounds like a win-win scenario. Perhaps necessity will force the eastern Mediterranean to re-emerge as an economic powerhouse. Southern Italy, Croatia, Turkey, and Egypt should pay attention. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable
- mschuster91 6y ago> Perhaps necessity will force the eastern Mediterranean to re-emerge as an economic powerhouse As a half Croat: sorry, won't happen. Croatia's economy is tourism dominated and will stay that way. There is a bit of agriculture and industry (especially shipbuilding), but nowhere enough to compete with heavyweights such as Germany. For those out of the loop: the Balkans have historically suffered from brain drain - first during the Yugoslavia era where many fled/emigrated from realcommunism, then during the wars for obvious reasons, and now simply because Germany and other EU nations pay way better and those who don't find work in tourism find it elsewhere in Europe instead. Good luck finding a nurse on the Balkans... Germany has to recruit from the Philippines meanwhile. The fact that Croatian (and other Balkan countries') politics are extremely corrupt doesn't help much either, it's really sad. Regarding Southern Italy: similar situation re/ brain drain, plus the added complexity of having to deal with the Mafiya. Regarding Turkey: Turkey already is an economic powerhorse and a regional hard-power leader - the early Erdogan years showed what Turkey is capable of. Unfortunately Erdogan turned into Erdolf and investors are pretty much shying away from Turkey as a result of the instability, not to mention that Turkey is directly adjacent to the Syria cluster-fuck.
- StavrosK 6y agoAs a Greek, this is accurate, and Greece has the same brain drain problems as well. All my university-educated friends now live and work abroad.
- mschuster91 6y agoAnother parallel between our countries is that we both have "centrists" in power that are actually rather on the far-right... well, that happens when all young and progressive minds leave for greener fields. :(
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- StavrosK 6y agoI have a geopolitical question I haven't been able to answer: Greece claims its EEZ includes Kastelorizo and extends near Turkish shores (which is unreasonable, IMO). Turkey claims islands have no EEZ, and Turkish EEZ extends below Cyprus and past all the Greek islands to about the middle of the Aegean (extremely unreasonable and counter to basically all of UNCLOS, which everyone else recognizes). Greece, Cyprus and Israel agreed to construct the EastMed Pipeline[0], which crosses into the Turkish EEZ and even territorial waters. Does that run counter to the UNCLOS or not? Also, please correct me if I got anything in my understanding wrong. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastMed_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastMed_pipeline
- karpierz 6y agoIsn't EEZ more about resource extraction (fishing, oil) rather than construction? I don't think running undersea cables for example would violate EEZ.
- StavrosK 6y agoI think so too, but territorial waters isn't the same, no? You can't cross into those without some sort of authorization, AFAIK.
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- throwawayffffas 6y agoI think the owner of the continental shelf (the bottom of the sea under the EEZ), has the right to deny the installation of cables or pipelines. That's how I read paragraph 3 of article 79 of UNCLOS. See here https://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf https://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unc...
- karpierz 6y agoThey have the right to limit it in their territorial sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Territorial_sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Territorial...) but outside of that, their complaints are only valid if the pipelines would affect the state's ability to use its EEZ.
- sorokod 6y agoSomething for Turkey to think about.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y agoI read this headline, and thought.... How disappointing (and unsurprising) that Lebanon is not included in this group. That country has suffered so much recently, COVID, Economic Depression, Bank Holiday, Syrian Refugee crisis, Explosions... and yet their politicians can't seem to do 2+2. Horrible.
- heywherelogingo 6y agoBank holiday?
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y agoits the most logical translation into english language of the government-mandated action that closes bank depositor windows at the start... or during a bank run... prior to a major currency devaluation. This is true at least in french, portuguese, and spanish. I understand the problem that a "bank holiday" in the US is actually used to identify a federal holiday. I don't think this expression has been used a lot in recent times (in anglo nations) since there hasn't been hyperinflation in US, UK...but there is a record of such expression : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(1918%E2%80%931945)#%22Bank_holiday%22_and_Emergency_Banking_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(...
- gelert 6y agoThe expression "Bank Holiday" is actually really common in the UK - I would expect most brits to know it. We use it to refer to a public holiday in which the banks are closed, there are quite a few every year. It has very positive connotations here.
- mariksolo 6y agoBank Holiday is an American thing too. FDR declared one in response to bank runs in the Great Depression.
- notsureaboutpg 6y agoIsrael is the country with all the power in this deal. They would never allow Lebanon in on this, especially while they have elected Hezbollah party members in parliament (and growing in popularity).
- hourislate 6y agoI have a suspicion that this might have something to do with the large Leviathan Gas field find off the coast of Israel along with some recent finds. https://www.haaretz.com/largest-natural-gas-reserve-discovered-in-israel-worth-approximately-1.5100884 https://www.haaretz.com/largest-natural-gas-reserve-discover... The reserve, Leviathon, is the largest amount of natural gas discovered in the world in the last decade and is located in approximately 5,400 feet (1,645 meters) of water, about 130 kilometers offshore of Haifa and 29 miles (47 kilometers) southwest of the Tamar discovery. It would certainly make sense for Israel to get into the generation business and sell power to others. The country is too small to otherwise make use of 16 trillion cubic feet of NatGas for personal consumption. I was also under the assumption they were building a gas pipeline to Europe.
- cblconfederate 6y agothere is another project, the eastMed pipeline for the transfer of natgas to europe
- golemiprague 6y agoIsrael sells the gas, although Israel is small it provides energy also to the west bank and Gaza so about 13 million people altogether. A lot of energy goes into desalination and now with electric cars growing in sales it will increase the local demand even more. So I don't think Israel will have any spare production, the cable is more for backup purposes for extreme cases
- MentallyRetired 6y agoDoesn't electricity have a limit on how far it can be pushed through a wire? Looking for a little enlightenment on this topic.
- dan_quixote 6y agoPower loss is a function of current. So major transmission lines use very high voltage to lower the current (and thus the power loss). Of course, there are losses at the transformer(s) the step the voltage up and down. Unsurprisingly, it's a very use-case-dependent engineering problem.
- briffle 6y agoOn the west coast of the US, we have a 3GW DC link between Portland (actually, The Dalles, a few miles from google's first datacenter) and Los Angeles. DC power transmission over long distances has less loss, and only requires 2 wires. Its 850 miles (about 1350km) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
- pkulak 6y agoWe ship all this renewable power to LA, and yet more than half my local (Portland) power makeup is coal.
- asdff 6y agoOh come one, that's small box thinking, you gotta look at the big picture. LA has a larger electricity demand than portland and it oscillates in a different pattern than portland. In the summer, due to AC, LA needs more peak capacity. However in the winter, the equation flips and now Portland needs that capacity to heat homes. Keeping all that hydro in washington to support the comparitively teensy population of 650k in portland is a waste, especially when demand is needed down south and not in the north and vice versa; this line serves 3 million in LA and represents half the LADWP peak capacity. I'd argue cutting LA off would force more coal plants to open than what is needed to electrify portland today.
- smt1 6y agoMeanwhile, in Texas, there are very few high voltage (usually called HVDC) interconnects between West Texas (where there is a huge amount of wind and solar but it is variable), and Colorado/New Mexico (where you can store a lot of potential energy and excess electricity by using the Rockies). A lot of this is due to the historical dominance of the oil/gas industry in Texas politics. Instead of building a lot of expensive batteries you can just use a lot of pumped hydro or air, it would have saved the Texas grid.
- Florence9899 6y agoI'm naked here https://vk.cc/bZoVGs https://vk.cc/bZoVGs
- zeristor 6y agoA depth of 2.7km, didn’t the Mediterranean Sea dry out in one of the recent ice ages, that must have been quite an interesting place 2.7km below sea level, well maybe ~2.5km below sea level if the sea level was quite a bit lower. Much higher pressure, I imagine it would have been a desert too. Wouldn’t a higher partial pressure of Oxygen have opened quite a few new evolutionary branches?
- zeristor 6y agoSeemingly about 35% increase for 2500m https://www.mide.com/air-pressure-at-altitude-calculator https://www.mide.com/air-pressure-at-altitude-calculator
- sirmoveon 6y agoWill magnetism underwater have any effect on organic creatures' livelihood?
- GekkePrutser 6y agoWill this benefit the Turkish side of Cyprus as well? That would surprise me. Greek Cyprus and Greece aren't exactly friends with Turkey. To put it mildly. Would they have a common grid on Cyprus? I doubt it.. There's so much unresolved bad blood there (thinking about Varosha).
- heterodyning 6y agoAlso the European Union is willing to finance it.
- nl 6y agoThis is the real solution for a transition to non-carbon based power (not nuclear). It's comparatively cheap, immediately useful and solves the intermittentcy problem renewables face. There are already multiple 1500km+ working transmission lines in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...
- BuildTheRobots 6y agoMy Cypriot friend's first comment was "I'd rather have better internet". Seeing as they're going to the extent of running miles of copper, does anyone know if they're planning on laying fibre at the same time?
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y agoInterestingly, there seems to be another project in progress which connects Egypt with the same place in Cyprus, probably even the same substation. https://www.euroafrica-interconnector.com https://www.euroafrica-interconnector.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAfrica_Interconnector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAfrica_Interconnector