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The Framework Laptop

• ploxiln 6y ago
  I don't see any mention of the firmware and drivers efforts for this. Firmware and drivers always end up more difficult to deal with than expected. The Fairphone company was surprised by difficulties upgrading and patching android without support from their BSP vendor, causing many months delays of updates _and_ years shorter support life than they were planning for their earlier models. I purchased the Purism Librem 13 laptop from their kickstarter, and they had great plans for firmware and drivers, but also great difficulty following through. The trackpad chosen for the first models took much longer than expected to get upstream linux support, and it was never great (it turned out to be impossible to reliably detect their variant automatically). They finally hired someone with sufficient skill to do the coreboot port _months_ after initial units were delivered, and delivered polished coreboot firmware for their initial laptops _years_ after they started the kickstarter. So, why should we have confidence in the firmware and drivers that Framework will deliver :)
  • 2020aj 6y ago
    Librem was geared towards openness/security, this just has a focus on repairability. Can Framework not just use off the shelf parts that already have the proper firmware/drivers available for windows/linux and then encounter none of the same issues? Or is the issue the interfaces b/w the modules and mainboard?
    • ploxiln 6y ago
      For desktop computers this is a lot easier, for laptops it's still not that easy. The motherboards are not just COTS "Asus z490 prime" or whatever, and you can't just include a nice standard USB mouse which requires no drivers. If you don't have a good plan for how you will ensure you have good motherboard firmware and touchpad drivers, then they won't turn out good. Luckily it seems like Framework do have this well under control (somewhat quietly :)
    • Brakenshire 6y ago
      I think the particular problem for devices based on ARM SoCs is they’re not on the mainline kernel, support for hardware and for upgrading software relies on a whole pile of hacks on top of an ancient kernel version, and that means that upgrading to a new Android version requires applying a pile of new hacks on top again, and can be very laborious to get a reasonable, stable result. So Fairphone used a chipset whose manufacturer quickly dropped support for upgrading beyond a certain Android version, and that made it difficult for Fairphone to support the upgrade themselves. Whereas if x86 systems have support on the mainline kernel, future kernel upgrades will be supported.
      • 908B64B197 6y ago
        Is there a reason why there needs to be so much tweaks to get the kernel running on a modern SoC? Any reason there couldn't be a "canonical" ARM64 standard for SoC?
        • spijdar 6y ago
          There is a "canonical" ARM64 standard, so to speak -- ARM's ServerReady architecture, which implements UEFI+ACPI, which coupled with the right hardware, could create the same kind of ecosystem Intel/PCs have enjoyed for so long. The problem is a lot of ARM SoCs have tightly integrated, custom hardware which requires modified or new drivers, and the tweaks needed to use them are often either very dirty and won't be accepted into mainline Linux without basically redoing them, or are occasionally just hooks for proprietary userland blobs to interface with, and are effectively obfuscated, satisfying the "letter of the law" for GPL but no more. There are some devices like this on x86 too, FWIW -- Google's Pixelbook, as an example, has a few devices that effectively need a custom fork of Linux to get the audio device to function correctly, because it's driven over i2c (IIRC) and needs special blobs uploaded and an out-of-tree driver to function. ARM SoCs could be more "PC like" but it'd be more expensive, which as far as I can tell is a big reason it hasn't happened. No real incentive as people don't seem to care if their OS goes out of date in 4 years.
      • TimTheTinker 6y ago
        This could change with support for Apple's M1 chip being added to the Linux mainline hopefully later this year.
  • nrp 6y ago
    Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec, and we're using a mature off the shelf BIOS solution shipping in other notebooks today. We chose our key components with driver stability across both Windows and Linux in mind. We know this is something we have to get right to deliver a credible competitor to all the great notebooks already in the market, so it is something we focused on from the start.
    • abrowne 6y ago
      Please support the Linux Vendor Firmware Service https://fwupd.org/ https://fwupd.org/ :-)
    • cpill 6y ago
      if you have a fingerprint reader that works in Linux I'm in!
      • kieranl 6y ago
        Working on it!
      • odysseus 6y ago
        My Thinkpad fingerprint reader works in Linux. Well, it works perhaps 80-85% of the time. See https://askubuntu.com/questions/1231185/fingerprint-login-in-20-04 https://askubuntu.com/questions/1231185/fingerprint-login-in...
    • southerntofu 6y ago
      Hi, i'm interested about details. Are they on a wiki somewhere? > driver stability across both Windows and Linux Is "Linux" in this case mainline linux or does entail to use nvidia/ati proprietary drivers? If mainline linux, is it a free driver, or a binary blob? (see linux-libre) > a mature off the shelf BIOS solution Is coreboot/libreboot on your roadmap? I'm not trying to nitpick. Congratulations on the hardware design that looks amazing (replaceable port extensions, clever!). I strongly believe software is also an important part of reliability/durability, that's why my questions :)
    • 6y ago
  • bmd3991 6y ago
    Semi off-topic, but how is working in the firmware/drivers/systems space? Everyone always talks about how hard it is, so that makes me think that companies would be paying a premium for good systems devs. On the other hand there aren't as many companies who have that need. I enjoyed the low level work I did in college and have been thinking about getting back into it, but there are no jobs involving it near me (moving to Seattle in a bit so this should change)
• vermaden 6y ago
  So its now innovative to get back to 2010 and re-create old ThinkPad laptop with unusable 'island' keyboard? :)
• adenozine 6y ago
  No information about pricing?
  • sturza 6y ago
    does not matter
    • ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      In what way?
      • sturza 6y ago
        it will be expensive because it liiks like the first teuly modular laptop. it will get cheaper if it has a big enough market. so in a long enough time frame it does not matter
        • imwillofficial 6y ago
          It does when payday rolls around ;)
        • tluyben2 6y ago
          I couldn't see it from the introduction, but is it differently modular than old Lenovo's? Like the X220 which I use as daily driver? I guess the flexible ports layout is different but the X220 has enough anyway.
        • whoisburbansky 6y ago
          Founder in sister thread explicitly says they aren’t planning on charging a premium for longevity. Besides, even at Apple level prices, a perpetually upgradable system essentially pays for itself eventually.
        • SilverRed 6y ago
          Its not the first. We have seen modular designs over and over again. Here is a very similar idea from 2016 https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop We have also seen multiple failed attempts at modular phones. Ultimately, the problem with repair is not about making it easy enough for grandma to swap out a part. Its about making sure repair stores have the ability to source replacement parts. Its pretty easy to do almost any repair if you have the tools and parts but there is no way you are finding a new IC that fried on your 5 year old laptop.
• blainsmith 6y ago
  Great. Another laptop with 1/2 arrow keys. Such a shame.
  • ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    I feel you. IMHO Lenovo still makes the best laptop keybaord layouts for coding, typing and gaming. Check out their Legion series.
    • blainsmith 6y ago
      I agree. If I ever get a new machine it will be a Lenovo. The build quality is amazing.
  • mumblemumble 6y ago
    The hjkl keys look full size to me. ducks
    • blainsmith 6y ago
      Haha. I have adapted to that too, but why even bother with 1/2 keys then. The look like an afterthought.
      • mumblemumble 6y ago
        It's probably difficult to build a laptop with mass market appeal if it's only trying to sell to vi people.
    • imwillofficial 6y ago
      You are more brave than I
    • wp381640 6y ago
      a refined man, could have said wasd
      • 6y ago
• akhilcacharya 6y ago
  Looks promising, but having AMD chips would be killer.
  • imwillofficial 6y ago
    Seconded! The value that AMD has been bringing to the table lately is shockingly good.
    • cromka 6y ago
      The fact that they answered a fairly ridiculous question (by HN-standards) wether swapping Intel for AMD on the same Motherboard is possible, but did npt address reasonable questions about their choosing of Intel over AMD, makes me suspicious of them being in bed with Intel somehow. It's just like with the AMD versions of Lenovo/HP/Dell premium laptops, which are always somehow inexplicably crippled (low-res display? why?!) compared to the Intel configurations. When people ask why there's so many rooting against Intel, I don't say it's because they stagnated the market. It's specifically because long-known practices like these. But hopefully it's not the case here.
• necrotic_comp 6y ago
  I wish new laptops would follow the form factor of the old Thinkpads instead of Macbooks. I realize that most people like trackpads and can't stand the trackpoint, but as someone who has used one for so long it would be fantastic if something like this existed. That being said, this is a great project and it looks like it should be successful - having a laptop that is built to last with interchangable parts is a great idea and should've been done long ago.
  • jpetso 6y ago
    Yep. With swappable keyboards, I really hope that they consider an alternative option with trackpoint, trackpoint mouse buttons and full-size arrow keys, perhaps even adjacent PgUp/PgDown keys à la ThinkPad.
• kinghtown 6y ago
  I dig the concept, just hope the utilization pans out. I’m holding out for an arm based Linux laptop which can handle Blender without too much fan noise... I would love to get a system76 laptop but I have doubts about the build quality. But they say that they are on tract to manufacture their own laptops this year. How does a framework laptop compare to System76? (Let alone a Lenovo or Asus.) Any chance you guys could make your own distro in the future and brand it Lapdance?
  • baybal2 6y ago
    I have few tricks in my sleeve, but my laptop project stalled with quarantine, and appearance of other things to spend money on.
• kodah 6y ago
  As someone who swaps laptops out a lot, I'm down to get one. I'm also the same kind of person that buys an X1 Extreme for it's ability to be repaired. I'm also curious about price, but I'm assuming that hasn't been decided. That said: > Founded in San Francisco in 2019 I'd love to see these kind of companies founded outside of this area in the future.
  • whoisburbansky 6y ago
    Sorry, why does it matter where they’re founded?
  • bombcar 6y ago
    I can understand the strong benefits for startups starting in the Bay Area; I would like to see more of them migrate OUT at an appropriate time (which would be slightly before FAANG valuation in my mind). Remote work may solve some of this, but eventually the extended runways available at "lower altitudes" (to bend the metaphor) will become worthwhile.
• ceocoder 6y ago
  I’ve added my name to preorder list, happy to pay premium for a laptop with high build quality and hardware. Please don’t screw up the keyboard. Please. And a fingerprint reader would be welcome addition if possible.
  • nrp 6y ago
    Keyboard feel was high on our list of priorities. We engaged one of the bigger keyboard suppliers and worked with them on a custom one with 1.5mm key travel. We've built a fingerprint reader into the power button using a just-released sensor that has been performing really well in our testing so far. We're seeing False Reject Rates lower than the typical fingerprint readers built into laptops while keeping the right False Accept Rate.
    • ceocoder 6y ago
      Awesome! Best of luck and please let me know if you want someone to dogfood things as an outsider. My email is my HN username
    • ndiddy 6y ago
      How is the trackpad? Does it support Windows Precision? What material is it made out of? How does it compare to an Apple trackpad?
      • nrp 6y ago
        It's a Windows Precision Touchpad with a matte glass surface, and it feels pretty good!
        • ndiddy 6y ago
          Thanks for the info!
        • skavi 6y ago
          There doesn’t seem to be much space left for a large battery. Do you have any estimates on capacity?
• imwillofficial 6y ago
  This looks so interesting. A modular laptop that looks great? I’m a Mac guy and this still has me hyped!
• holri 6y ago
  Will it run with completely free software? The limiting factor for lasting is not hardware but required proprietary software.
  • whoisburbansky 6y ago
    Are you implying they’re going to stop you from popping Ubuntu on it somehow? [Edit: Thanks for all the replies citing driver blobs and proprietary BIOS issues, totally slipped my mind that that was a concern, makes a ton more sense now.]
    • ArchieMaclean 6y ago
      They may be wondering if the BIOS is FOSS. E.g. LibreBoot https://libreboot.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > Non-free BIOS/UEFI firmware often contains backdoors, can be slow and have severe bugs. Development and support can be abandoned at any time.
    • sesuximo 6y ago
      Idk bro the cpu microcode from intel is closed source. How can you live with that </s>
    • holri 6y ago
      Ubuntu runs also on proprietary drivers. If the hardware vendor stops to maintain the proprietary driver or binary blob the hardware could become obsolete very quickly, although it runs fine hardware wise. My 11yr old Nokia N900 runs absolutely fine hardware wise. It also could run a new linux kernel, but some drivers are proprietary and can not be updated. What a waste.
    • gillesjacobs 6y ago
      I think he is referring to proprietary firmware/driver blobs that come with many CPUs and GPUs. Purism has focused on this issue and provide fully FOSS hardware [1]. 1. https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/
    • marcodiego 6y ago
• vessenes 6y ago
  I always think of The Sandbenders from William Gibson’s Idoru when I see projects like this. It might be worth publishing enough of the internal CAD measurements as specs so that artists could create their own enclosures / cool addons and be sure that they will have parts access. Anyway, my first thought was ‘will an m1 board fit in there?’ so I am looking forward to seeing your release!
• cupofjoakim 6y ago
  This actually looks promising but I wonder if I'm really the target group. While I do build custom computers every now and then i also cherish the "completeness" of the unibody design that my MBP has. I also wonder about the availability of parts... Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
  • chrismorgan 6y ago
    13.5″ 2256×1504, that’s 201ppi, not too shabby, just right for 1.5× scaling for an effective resolution of 1504×1002⅔. (I like my Surface Book’s 13.5″ 3000×2000 267ppi display which is just the right size for 2× scaling, yielding an effective resolution of 1500×1000.) For reference, the common 13.3″ 1920×1080 display is 166ppi, 13.3″ 1366×768 is 118ppi, 15.6″ 1920×1080 is 141ppi, and 15.6″ 1366×768 is 100ppi. (I’m idly curious why it’s 2256×1504 rather than 2250×1500, which would scale to the more convenient effective resolution of 1500×1000 at 150%, and still 200ppi.)
    • leephillips 6y ago
      Resolution is marginal. It would be a step down from my 2013 Google Chrome pixel (240 dpi), which you can get refurbished for about $200.
  • coldpie 6y ago
    > Also, big up for the 3:2 screen. Amen. Any chance I can buy one for my desktop?
  • hyperpl 6y ago
    If the screen is swappable I'd really like to see a lower DPI version of 1920x1280. The Thinkpad X1C9 by comparison is 14" @ 1920x1200.
• SloopJon 6y ago
  One of the repair challenges is access to old parts. The drain hose on our three year-old washer sprung a leak. When I called a repair man, he at first said that Samsung doesn't make that part anymore. Fortunately, he was mistaken, but if that's something that happens for a simple hose, imagine trying to replace the "high-end headphone amp" expansion card on this laptop five years from now. Even if I'm not too excited about the proprietary expansion card system, which will last as long as the founders' attention spans, if it gives access to standard memory and storage, that's an improvement over the current trend.
  • 99_00 6y ago
    >if that's something that happens for a simple hose But it didn't happen...
    • SilverRed 6y ago
      But it has happened to many of us for other things. The camera on my pixel 2 broke but no one sells new parts for the pixel 2 and google doesn't support it. All you can get is poor quality second hand and stolen parts. For a less popular product, you get nothing.
  • psalminen 6y ago
    From the article: "In addition to releasing new upgrades regularly, we’re opening up the ecosystem to enable a community of partners to build and sell compatible modules through the Framework Marketplace." Maybe I am misinterpreting it but it sounds like its not a completely proprietary system?
    • f6v 6y ago
      A marketplace for an extremely narrow market? Who’s going to invest their money to develop hardware for this platform? They better do everything themselves in the beginning.
      • nrp 6y ago
• nightowl_games 6y ago
  Honestly this is exactly what I want (quality, repairable, upgradable), but I'm not all in yet. I feel like this space is extremely hard to break into, and I'm worried about their ability to pull it off. Is there massive capital in this corp? Will the price be really high? I'd pay a premium for this kind of thing, but if they start crowd funding it's gonna seem like a red flag.
  • nrp 6y ago
    We have the funding we need to bring the product to market (an odd downstream benefit of Oculus getting bought by Facebook), but we will be taking pre-orders with a deposit prior to shipping to make sure our SKU mix and production rates are matched to actual demand. We won't be asking consumers to pay a premium for longevity, but it's nice to hear that you'd be willing to!
    • ihsw 6y ago
      Do you have plans for a Ryzen (Zen 3) CPU?
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • conqrr 6y ago
      Will it be cheaper than a mac? If yes, you have my money as I can see it being used for the next 20 years (with upgrades).
    • deadmutex 6y ago
      How often will you be pushing out new releases? every 18 months? 24? etc. Personally, I am waiting until av1 hardware decoders are more common, and BT 5 LE Audio (so they can stream to wireless headsets easily) is out as well.
    • samatman 6y ago
      Drive by suggestion here. I think you should offer a first-class Linux experience with this laptop. It's a genuinely underserved market, with a lot of overlap for people who care about the repairability and upgradability which are core to your offering. A market with premium mind share, as well. When I say first class, I mean something specific: you should spend some of your engineering budget making a really good driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open source it. That would be huge. I'm sure your hardware is up to snuff, but your control over how good that feels in Windows is very limited. There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for essentially one reason, the touchpad. Windows is dominant in laptops, but with distinct verticals, and I struggle to figure out which one this would fit into. Cheap semi-disposable laptop for a broke college student? Clearly this will cost more than that. Gaming? No way you'll have enough power and battery with that form factor. Excel ninjas who get it from work? Why would they care about expansion and repairability? But "I'd rather be using Linux if the experience just sucked a little bit less" is underserved. Obviously you can't offer just Linux, and maybe licensing shenanigans with Microsoft mean you can't even consider this (although I really hope that's not a factor anymore). Anyway. Good luck, it's a cool idea.
• f6v 6y ago
  > with the ability to choose Windows or install your preferred Linux distribution. 10$ says it’s going to be quite an effort to run Linux on it. Nice idea though.
  • nrp 6y ago
    We're putting in the work ourselves to make sure the most common distributions like Ubuntu LTS releases run smoothly. We had that in mind as we selected key components in the system. Edit: And it's worth noting that a couple of folks on the team are diehard Linux users, including our software/firmware lead, and they run Ubuntu on their Framework Laptops.
    • base698 6y ago
      Shut up and take my money!
    • rathboma 6y ago
      With s3 sleep support for linux you will get my business :-)
  • kieranl 6y ago
    Kieran from Framework Here - Using it as my main machine for development running Ubuntu 20.04 right now. The main tweak is running a mainline kernel with some distributions as Tigerlake support is new.
    • auraham 6y ago
      Nice to see that many of the developers/members of the team are GNU/Linux users. I would like to see if it can run other popular distros, like Elementary.
      • kiwijamo 6y ago
        Debian too. Although the fact they use Ubuntu suggests Debian support should be a given.
• saurabhnanda 6y ago
  I feel horrible whenever I end-up damaging an electronics product in such a way that repairs do not make any monetary sense. Mostly this is because the manufacturer doesn't bother in building out a healthy service network for their product because they'd rather force you to buy a new model. If priced right, I'll buy this as my next laptop. And the next phone as well -- if they ever launch one.
• mushufasa 6y ago
  reminds me of this https://www.ebay.com/b/CardBus-Laptop-Port-Expansion-Card/42323/bn_635538 https://www.ebay.com/b/CardBus-Laptop-Port-Expansion-Card/42...
• grenoire 6y ago
  Is the upgrade system proprietary, i.e. will I be able to get in new parts besides RAM and disks when Framework is no more? Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and modular as the desktop ecosystem?
  • burlesona 6y ago
    > Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and modular as the desktop ecosystem? No. The robust desktop ecosystem is powered by a bunch of categories that don’t really want laptops: gamers, business, research, some developers, etc. Desktops are “work trucks” while laptops are mostly “cars.”
• burlesona 6y ago
  Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam? Nice. But: - I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above left and right. You’d think they’d learn that from the MacBook butterfly keyboard era. - it’s a little disingenuous to say “no adapters” when in fact their little expansion cards are merely adapters that insert into the chassis of the laptop. Only four I/O ports is a little tight (despite Apple deeming it to be “enough”) - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards. It’ll be interesting to see how people respond, when many (especially in this crowd) have been clamoring for this kind of thing. How many will actually vote with their dollars, and will that be enough for Framework to survive and become a viable competitor in the laptop space? I hope so, as I welcome the diversity and innovation that would represent. But I admit I’m skeptical as to their chances.
  • nrp 6y ago
    The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually prototyped both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to most folks. It's definitely a matter of personal preference though. The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit lighter. On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting rid of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and need to be removed when you need to transport it.
    • mdpye 6y ago
      How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case? If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let you take what you fancy!
      • asoneth 6y ago
        I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with a customizable keyboard. [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
• gillesjacobs 6y ago
  Great initiative, but the proprietary expansion cards are entirely counter-productive to maintainability. The expansion cards will only be available for as long as your company provides them. Using the most-commonly used, mass-manufactured standard interfaces for components would provide more long-term repairability and upgradeability. The trade-off would be in design resulting in more bulk and in the economics of your company, of course. It seems cynical to me to sell maintainability while starting a walled-garden ecosystem of proprietary hardware.
  • kieranl 6y ago
    We will open up the expansion card spec and share reference designs to enable partners and the community to build their own! I want it to be open as much as you do.
    • ryandrake 6y ago
      This is a great first step. Ideally the expansion story converges on some kind of industry-wide standard, like PCMCIA was. Would be cool to have other peripheral manufacturers out there agreeing on the spec and committed to building expansion hardware!
    • colonwqbang 6y ago
      Is it "just" an internal USB-C connection to the expansion card? Or is there something else going on that could be more difficult to work with?
      • kieranl 6y ago
        Nothing that goes outside the usb/displayport standards. We have to be compatible to support the passthrough card :).
    • ehnto 6y ago
      Is there a catching/locking mechanism for the expansion module that holds it in place? It would be a shame if the whole module came out when trying to remove a particularly firm USB connector.
• sho_hn 6y ago
  I don't see any information on the licensing of the adapter card / inter-module interfaces. Can others build a Framework laptop without approval? Can others build cards without approval? Will it be a platform? Tell me how this isn't a Nespresso machine for silicon pods. :-) Edit: To be clear, even a "we have a generic base laptop and you can pick your I/O" concept is potentially a nice value prop, but it'd be good if the picture (and roadmap) was clear.
  • znpy 6y ago
    tbh the adapter card really looks like a simple adaptor with an usb-c/thunderbolt plug on one side. it'll take a week or two for chinese knock-off to appear on aliexpress etc. what i wonder is: - can those cards be locked in place? - can i hotplug/hot-unplug them ?
    • nrp 6y ago
      They are hot swappable, and they latch in place. There is a button on the bottom of the system to release the latch.
      • znpy 6y ago
        thanks!
      • rzzzt 6y ago
        Can they be locked in place? I'm wondering if it will withstand the pull of eg. the USB-A connection while it is being unplugged, and disconnect on the USB-C side instead.
  • oconnore 6y ago
    Nespresso pods for silicon sound great! I’m not a hardware engineer, I’m just tired of $800 “replace the entire main board” repairs when I broke my ‘H’ key.
    • xbar 6y ago
• pmontra 6y ago
  Nice project. However I see no Gigabit ethernet port. USB dongle for the one of us that prefer the performance and the predictability of a cable over Wi-Fi's whims?
  • nrp 6y ago
    A Gigabit Ethernet Expansion Card is on our roadmap, though it is going to look a little goofy compared to the other cards, since it won't fit entirely in the current envelope.
    • LeifCarrotson 6y ago
      I'll second the parent's request for an RJ45 Ethernet port. It can't possibly look any goofier than an Expresscard Ethernet adapter! One easy way to get it to fit would be to make the module thicker. To avoid the whole thing sitting at an angle in the existing envelope, you'd want to replace the little adhesive-secured feet with taller, screw-secured feet to give it clearance. I'm a controls engineer and am constantly connecting to PLCs and robots in environments that don't do wireless networking. I have to deal with all kinds of legacy hardware manufacturer's IDEs and real-time protocols that work poorly with USB dongles. Of course, your expansion cards are really USB dongles, and appear to allow tool-less hot-plugging (https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/expansion_card.gif https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/expan...). I'd love to see an optional screw to retain the card, and wouldn't mind shutting the laptop down and rebooting it, especially if it meant it showed up in /etc/network/interfaces all the time and never needed to be kicked out of sleep with `ip link set dev eth0 up`. Other desirable expansion cards would be a VGA port or DB9 serial port; would those fit? I fear that your efforts to reach beige-box compatibility are really hamstrung by the obsession with thin and light laptops; there's no way (for example) that you'll fit my preferred keyboard (Lenovo 45N2211, out of a T420) and still have the hinges close because the enclosure is so thin. I hope you succeed, but I especially hope you produce a 15" workstation version that's 10mm thicker.
      • pmontra 6y ago
        If they do a 15" laptop, please make the keyboard configurable. I mean, no number pad for people like me and number pad for people that need it and tolerates an off center touchpad and space bar.
• skrebbel 6y ago
  Love the logo on the back of the screen. No stupid slogans, just the cog, looks great! It makes no rational sense, but I'd want to own one just for that. Hope there's gonna be a touchscreen version! After all, a UI that you can't touch is like coffee that you can't smell.
  • willyt 6y ago
    I didn't get the idea of a touchscreen laptop until I got an iPad recently, now I'm constantly trying to touch my laptop screen and then getting confused when I doesn't do anything.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• mark242 6y ago
  Very disconcerting to launch a laptop without any mention of battery life.
  • nrp 6y ago
    Apologies for that. We packed in a 55Wh battery and are using popular silicon and a display that is used in several other popular notebooks, so you can use those as a reference point. We didn't want to state a figure in hours until we wrap up our firmware work and can release reproducible benchmarks for it (since battery life marketing statements tend to be pretty questionable).
• villgax 6y ago
  This is excellent, would have loved swappable 18650 based battery packs too!
• ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  So a ThinkPad in Mac shell? Is the framework flexible enough to switch an Intel processor for AMD Ryzen without having to replace the entire motherboard?
  • rrss 6y ago
    No. You can't even do that in a desktop. AMD and Intel CPUs don't use the same socket or pinout.
• marcodiego 6y ago
  What is really needed is a common chassis. A common carcass that allows me the put whatever I want inside it. If I want a pinebook[1], I want to be able to put pinebook guts inside it, if I want a mnt reform[2], I want to be able to put mnt reform guts inside it. Too bad eoma68[3] is still sci-fi. [1] https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/ https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/ [2] https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-personal-computer.html https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-p... [3] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
  • CivBase 6y ago
    > What is really needed is a common chassis. I agree. I understand why that wasn't a thing 10 years ago while laptops continued to get thinner and bezels continued to get smaller and I/O was rapidly changing and evolving. Modern laptops are much more consistent, and standards like M.2 and USB-C have provide excellent support for low-profile expansion. Now seems like a great time to start rolling out standards for laptop motherboard connectivity, display housing, keyboard/trackpad housing, and I/O bays.
    • warmwaffles 6y ago
      That's not where the money is though unfortunately. It's why manufacturers like the solder on components. Easier to manufacture and make as small as possible. I hate it, and think it's bad for consumers.
      • CivBase 6y ago
        We managed to get standards like that on desktops though. What's specifically different about modern laptops?
        • uluyol 6y ago
          Size, heat, weight, and noise are more challenging for laptop design than desktops. Desktops tend to have things spread out much more and you just don't care about some of these issues.
• dethos 6y ago
  This is awesome, has the same "spirit" of the Fairphone. I think this is the direction the industry should be moving. However it will not be easy to break this vicious and wasteful cycle that feeds many companies nowadays.
• Sebb767 6y ago
  This looks great, I _really_ hope this becomes sustainable and a long running model. I've upgraded my laptop just in 2020, but when Ryzen-based mainboards and some high-bandwith plugins (10 Gbit SFP+/RJ45 or Thunderbolt) become available, this will definitely go on the list. So best of luck to you to become mainstream, so that these niche-parts can be cross-financed ;)
• andrewmcwatters 6y ago
  This is really cool, but I feel like the industry is missing something like ATX for laptops. That's what I really want. And hell, come out with a mini-ATX for laptops if you're concerned dimensions won't end up competitive.
• tommybu 6y ago
  I love the initiative! It's in line with the right to repair movement which, considering the HN crowd, is more than welcome these days. I wonder though are there any plans to support coreboot?
• numair 6y ago
  The website says that it’s by members of the founding team from Oculus. You know what else is from the founders of Oculus? A company making AI-directed killer drones and other toys being pitched as essentials for World War III. In 2021, the ethics of your products are as important as the products themselves. And yes, there’s a ton of hypocrisy if we compare to $BIG_CO, but that’s one of the tough parts of being young and new in an era where the young new guys have gone from 0 to 100 and gotten old and evil real quick. Sorry to be so harsh, but Oculus connection that wins you VC dollars will get in the way of a lot of other things in unexpected ways if you want to tap consumer / prosumer. If you go after the defense market, however, you’re golden! Not kidding. Call me crazy, though, but I’d rather have my dollars end up as far from war lobbying as possible.
• fossuser 6y ago
  Neat - I wonder how it’ll turn out. It’s weird how little there is in the laptop space that’s actually good. Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS? Everything else sucks. It’d be cool to have another high quality option.
  • jtl999 6y ago
    I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past but even those seem to be questionable now.
  • folkrav 6y ago
    Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat out suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the issues with their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in some MBPs. Some XPSes are good, but many models had horrible coil whine as well. The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're looking for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently. Back in school I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as well. I've heard good things about some System76 systems too, and they're basically Clevo rebrands. There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.
    • fossuser 6y ago
      Yeah I’m with you that even in the categories I mentioned there are problems. System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful. Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels, etc. I think there’s a market for a really good non Mac laptop with Mac quality hardware design.
      • folkrav 6y ago
        My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop, higher end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and Pro... As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+ Macbook with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same criteria. They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost.
• lovelyviking 6y ago
  This is the machine I was dreaming to have!
• de_nied 6y ago
  How much overhead will there be from having USB-C connected "Expansion Cards"? Will there documentation or support for enabling people to create their own expansion cards (for ex. like S/PDIF)? Will there be any support for high-end processors, perhaps in the absence of a dGPU? Dell Latitudes 14" laptops have an Intel i7-10850H which has 6-cores/12-threads, 2.70 GHz base, 5.10 GHz boost clocks. In addition, will cooling be customizable? The Latitudes run pretty hot. Finally, is there a ball-park on the price range we can expect on pre-orders and say 1 year from release? $1,000? $2,000? Will it also be a high upfront-cost, but low replacement parts cost? Will they both be relatively high? Both low?
• samizdis 6y ago
  Ars Technica has a sceptical but optimistic/hopeful take on it: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/framework-startup-designed-a-thin-modular-repairable-13-inch-laptop/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/framework-startup-de... Edit to add quote from Ars article: Framework is promising an awful lot in its very first product—"thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" is a pretty tall order to live up to. We very much want to believe, but it's going to take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're completely convinced. Although we're skeptical, we are hopeful—the fledgling company does have a pretty solid pedigree. Framework founder Nirav Patel was Oculus VR's head of hardware from 2012 to 2017, and he was a Facebook director of engineering beyond that. The company's team also includes design, engineering, and operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and Lenovo.
  • arcturus17 6y ago
    They've got the street cred but producing and marketing hardware is so damn hard. Ouya and the Essential phone are two cases that immediately spring to mind where the founding teams were credible, but the products ended up being massive flops. Good luck to them anyway. The idea is cool and I think if I were on the lookout for a Linux laptop and they delivered on their quality promise, I'd consider them.
    • samizdis 6y ago
      Yes, I remember being particularly disappointed when Google's Project Ara [1] to create a modular mobile phone was shelved. It seemed like a fantastic idea, and I truly thought that Alphabet/Google had the cash/clout - and will - to deliver. Still, I haven't lost my optimism just yet. As you say, good luck to Framework with the laptop project. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
      • kilroy123 6y ago
        I too wanted to see this work, but I was skeptical. Maybe it's just too ahead of its time?
      • 6y ago
• intrasight 6y ago
  This will only be "real" if an when there's an ecosystem of clones as happened with the original IBM PC. But it's definitely about time that we had such standards for laptops.
• david927 6y ago
  Thank you so much for doing this. It's really needed. I once had an HP Envy laptop which was so poorly made that I refuse to buy anything from HP again.
• skadamat 6y ago
  This is super cool! Any plans to release a trackpad with the classic 2 physical buttons?
• stephen 6y ago
  I know trackpads won, but would love a trackpoint. I keep buying Thinkpads solely for that feature.
  • messo 6y ago
    Same for me, but I can understand if it is hard to implement in the current design.
  • bxparks 6y ago
    How do I scroll a page up and down with a trackpoint (on Windows and Linux)? I've tried using a trackpoint, but the two-finger swipe up and down on a trackpad is a convenience that I cannot seem to live without.
    • skavi 6y ago
      there’s a scroll button iirc. You hold it down, and the trackpoint scrolls instead of moving the cursor.
    • stephen 6y ago
      Sure! I'm typing on this USB keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-TrackPoint/dp/B00F3U4TQS/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=thinkpad+usb+keyboard&qid=1614285897&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-Trac... And to scroll I press the middle blue button (below space bar), and then push the trackpoint stick up/down. The mouse cursor doesn't move, and instead the OS just scrolls the window. (Fwiw I'm on Linux and this behavior just worked out of the box, for both my generic desktop w/this keyboard & Thinkpad laptop.) Obligatory fanboy note, while performing this scroll action, I only have to move my thumb ~0.5" off the space bar, and my pointer finger ~1" off "j". So there is very little physical movement required to scroll (or click), vs. moving your whole palm up & down ~6" to the trackpad.
      • bxparks 6y ago
        Hmm, the middle mouse button is bound to "paste text from buffer" on Linux (probably X11 more accurately), so I keep pasting random text into the edit box or terminal window. And if I click on that middle button, then change my mind about scrolling the window, then release that button, it pastes the buffer. It looks like I have to move the trackpoint just slightly to change my mind I don't know. Maybe people can be trained to workaround all this, but it seems very fragile and unintuitive to me. If there was a way to bind the middle button to one of the modifier keys (e.g. Alt, Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Super/Window), I can see that being a better UX. Then I can hit the modifier key, then change my mind without affecting anything.
• hamburglar 6y ago
  The page about smart TVs makes me wonder if anyone has reverse-engineered the interface between a Samsung Frame TV’s main controller box and the panel that goes on the wall (it’s a remarkably thin cable that carries both the signal and power and can easily be fished through the wall). I absolutely love the panel itself with its wonderful display characteristics, but the software that drives everything from the main controller box is such trash that I’ll probably never buy one again). I’d happily buy a 3rd party box that would drive that display panel and be free of the buggy, spying, shitty UX that Samsung provides.
• tromp 6y ago
  What led framework to choose Intel CPUs over AMD ones? Did it simplify the design of the system?
  • CoolGuySteve 6y ago
    Yeah it's too bad, if this laptop had a 16 thread AMD CPU, it would be exactly what I'm looking for: a 3lbs mobile workstation that I can service/upgrade myself.
  • chaostheory 6y ago
    This. I would bite if it was an AMD chip. Intel is just overpriced.
  • chaosharmonic 6y ago
    If I had to make an guess from how they're describing the I/O, USB4 would be the immediate limitation.
    • jpetso 6y ago
      This would also suggest that once AMD gets their USB4 act together (hopefully starting with Rembrandt?), Mobile Ryzen should become an option.
  • freeopinion 6y ago
    A modular laptop that doesn't offer an AMD module? So, so close. Hopefully the AMD board will ship late Summer 2021. Lack of AMD support is a showstopper for some.
  • fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    Yeah, if I’m getting another laptop with an Intel CPU, I’ll just get a Mac: a Ryzen 4XXX laptop with Mac-like build quality would make me reconsider.
  • cpursley 6y ago
    No AMD is an absolute deal breaker for me. Might as well get a mac.
• malkia 6y ago
  Huh, not sure but site was not available through my company's VPN. It works though outside of it.
• iFire 6y ago
  Will you support Thunderbolt 3? The use of going portable and then docking in with a top of the line video card, monitor and proper keyboards is so exciting.
  • kieranl 6y ago
    We support USB4 - which has similar performance as thunderbolt 3. Multiple display pipes + USB + PCIE tunneling. It also supports 40gbps of aggregate bandwidth per port. Tigerlake also supports HBR3 with display compression - so you can run multiple 4k displays from a single port.
    • iFire 6y ago
      USB4 is documented to be upward compatible with Thunderbolt 3. Thanks for the response. Will be wanting to try https://www.sonnettech.com/product/egfx-breakaway-box/overview.html https://www.sonnettech.com/product/egfx-breakaway-box/overvi... on The Framework Laptop. Excited!
• cortexio 6y ago
  Why does the lady on the homepage keep changing the same parts? I mean how long is the video? i'm 1 hour in.
• lorax_108 6y ago
  needs amd processor
• yannikyeo 6y ago
  Will there be a version of keyboard without the Windows logo?
• Shared404 6y ago
  You have my attention. Will there be support for other processor architecture's at some point? Assuming this isn't vaporware, and is near as good as it sounds, this checks all the boxes I'd like for a laptop, esp. if it gets ARM and/or RISC support.
• markyc 6y ago
  the only thing I'd ask for is a no fan version
  • kieranl 6y ago
    We have no no fan/low fan support on our firmware backlog - basically reducing the SOC TDP to the point where the laptop becomes a passively cooled and does not require the fan. So you can have performance when you want it, and silence when you want.
• tablespoon 6y ago
  > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen with 2256x1504 resolution I approve of this. 16:9 computer screens are an abomination.
• thewalkingbeard 6y ago
  Why are these interesting niche laptops always so small?
• james_pm 6y ago
  Expansion cards = square dongles with USB-C connectors that plug into the frame.
• auraham 6y ago
  This seems to be a really great product. I understand many of its features may change in the future. However, I would like to see a spec sheet in the website. Also, I wonder what is the difference between the standard model and the DIY version. On the other hand, the interior and exterior of the laptop look gorgeous.
  • nrp 6y ago
    At launch, the standard pre-built model and DIY have the same CPU options available. DIY allows a broader range of memory and storage options, including bringing your own. The pre-built offers Windows 10 Home or Pro, while DIY offers those plus the option to ship without an OS installed. Both versions allow Expansion Card selection at order time. Edit: And we will be sharing full spec sheets before we open pre-orders.
    • aidenn0 6y ago
      Ironically I wish you launched a bit later; my laptop is only 3 years old and it would be rather ironic were I to throw it out to move to something more sustainable. I'll have to hope you succeed enough to still be around when it's 5-10 years old (or something breaks that I can't fix with the appropriate application of hot-air).
• Gracana 6y ago
  Do physical units exist yet? Where is the manufacturing done? It looks expensive to manufacture in small quantities. I do like the idea, but I'm afraid that this will become e-waste if Framework doesn't exist, grow, and succeed for years to come. The MNT Reform also does the "sustainable laptop" thing, via an open source approach. It's a lot simpler to manufacture and easier for end users to modify, and its longevity doesn't necessarily rely on MNT Research continuing to exist. I feel that's the safer approach.
  • spijdar 6y ago
    They're just very different products, ultimately. I've preordered a Reform and they're just very different laptops, in that this project is aiming to produce a laptop that could satisfy "the masses" buying Thinkpads or MBPs or XPS 13s etc and want the performance and software compatibility. Reform makes sacrifices in performance and form factor (much bulkier) but makes up for it in basically all the parts being 3D printable on hardware you could feasibly have at home, and even the PCBs look simple enough I bet you could hand assemble everything except the SoM module. I don't think the reform could ever become "mainstream" but I don't think it really wants to, either. This could be great if, like you mentioned, it "takes off" and converts more regular laptop users to a more repairable laptop than their old ones. We'll see...
• varispeed 6y ago
  This would be perfect think to spin off your own machines. Imagine downloading a Kicad files for motherboard, adding your own stuff, sending off to JLCPCB or similar for assembly and then stuffing into the laptop shell.
  • nrp 6y ago
    That's the goal! We will actually be publishing KiCad and OpenSCAD-based reference designs for the Expansion Cards for folks to be able to make their own. The mainboard is a bit more challenging, but we do want to enable an ecosystem around that as well.
  • baybal2 6y ago
    KiCAD is not the calibre of an EDA you would use to make PC motherboard.
    • varispeed 6y ago
      That depends on the frequency I guess and how integrated the chips of your choosing are. If you don't go to idk 1GHz area, then things can be forgiving. Shame that the things like Altium are still out of hobbyist reach.
• messo 6y ago
  I was dreaming about such a laptop only a few days ago (admittedly with an IBM/Lenovo-like keyboard). Do you offer ANSI keyboards for European countries? It would be great if a nordic keyboard layout was an option and easily swapable.
  • nrp 6y ago
    We have both ANSI and ISO layouts, and we've designed the keyboard to be end-user replaceable. We'll be adding more keyboard languages as we expand into more countries. The clear keyboard shown in our product photos is actually real too! We'll be offering clear and blank for the people who want that.
    • andrewshadura 6y ago
      Is the ISO layout an actual ISO, i.e. with an extra key between the left Shift and Z? By the way, I’d love to have a Trackpoint or an equivalent. Or a trackball.
      • elric 6y ago
        Goodness I hope that key is there, I've had to jump through all sorts of hoops to type comfortably on keyboards that are missing this key.
      • kieranl 6y ago
        Yep the ISO layout has the \| key next to Z!
    • messo 6y ago
      Great! The clear keyboard also sounds interesting as I could hack together my own Norwegian Colemak layout. * I meant ISO, not ANSI in my parent comment :)
• jblow 6y ago
  Hi, When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again. But looking at the announcement, it seems like trackpad and keyboard quality are far from anyone's mind, and it just looks like the laptop is copying Apple stylistically like everyone else, which means it is going to be kind-of unusable and I won't want to use it. (Especially when running Windows, those kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are death, because you'll keep accidentally moving files into places you didn't mean to, and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness once you add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after typing junk). I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1 determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact with the laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look like afterthoughts here. (For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more than one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been dismayed to watch the quality trend constantly downward over that time).
  • nrp 6y ago
    Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing just yet.
    • tomtheelder 6y ago
      No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule niche.
    • Liskni_si 6y ago
      Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_MG_1549_69ed205878.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_... Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …
• heroHACK17 6y ago
  This product would make more sense if they defined "consumer" as "engineer-inclined consumer". Swapping parts will drive the everyday consumer away from this product.
  • orthecreedence 6y ago
    No? This opens up an entire repair market for normal consumers as well. Instead of buying a whole new laptop, you can replace the screen, or the keyboard, or etc etc. Just because you won't be doing the repair yourself doesn't mean "welp, repairable laptops are dumb and only nerds will use them!" Just means you don't have to buy a new laptop every time one little thing breaks.
• branon 6y ago
  This looks great. Would like to see a model with a Zen 3 or ARM processor, as buying Intel hardware in 2021 is a bit of a hard sell for me. Outside of that, anything modular/repairable gets an A+.
  • wcerfgba 6y ago
    Agreed, I love everything about this but I'm currently waiting to buy something with a 5800H.
• GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Hmmm nice idea but they left some obvious gaps.. With custom port selection, there should be more port options, like ethernet. The chassis is thick enough to support one of those collapsible sockets at the very least.
  • nrp 6y ago
    We have a few more Expansion Cards currently in development and a very long list of cards in early exploration. The ones we've announced so far are the ones we plan to have available at launch: USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, DisplayPort, MicroSD, and 250GB and 1TB storage.
    • aidenn0 6y ago
      Are the expansion cards large enough to accommodate a full-size SD card slot? My current laptop has a PCIe-attached SD card reader and it serves dual-use as storage for my windows VM and getting files off of my camera. The micro-SD cards I've tried are just too slow to run as the system disk for a windows VM.
      • nrp 6y ago
        Full-size SD was actually what we intended to accommodate when we set the dimensions of the Expansion Card. We started with MicroSD/UFS Card though because it allowed us to keep tooling in common with our other cards. We would like to do full-size SD as well though.
• lukaszkups 6y ago
  are different keyboard layouts even considered? I hate those small up/down arrows. Would also love to see the keyboard layout with additional column on the right (with PgUp, PgDown, Ins, Del etc. keys) like Mech-15 from Eluktronics have.
• mwcampbell 6y ago
  > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen I wonder if the "future" this laptop is designed for was canceled by COVID. Now that so many of us are working from home, maybe we should optimize more for a stationary work environment with no compromises on input or output. That is, a desktop machine with unconstrained monitor and keyboard sizes.
  • salicideblock 6y ago
    On the other hand, for more traditional companies, covid and expectations of post-covid mean replacing 100% office time with a mix of office and home time. In these cases this mix means more mobility, so more value to laptops over desktops.
• pimterry 6y ago
  How does this charge? Looks like it has 4 fully swappable ports, plus a headphone jack. Where does the power go? Do I need to always have a USB-C adapter in one of those slots, and it charges through that maybe? That sort-of defeats some of the swappability though, if one port is effectively unchangeable. Might as well have a fixed USB-C port, since that's simpler and more space-efficient. Or is there another port or something planned that's just not shown on these prototypes?
  • nrp 6y ago
    It charges through any of the four Expansion Card ports, currently through the USB-C card. Part of the reason we didn't use a fixed USB-C port for this is that the Expansion Card path allows for alternate power schemes in the future like magnetic attach, adapting to existing proprietary connectors, or even crazy things like POE.
• belval 6y ago
  Lot of optimism in the comments, but unless they have their supply chain pinned down I really really doubt that it will ship in any significant quantity in Summer 2021. The truth is that right now most components are insanely hard to get, not just GPUs and they will have to play the bidding game (which will make their laptop significantly more expansive) or delay. For a small volume like theirs, there is a non zero probability that they will get dropped by their manufacturer completely. I'd love to get my hands on one of their laptop though!
  • nrp 6y ago
    I shared this in another comment: We placed our forecasts and risk buys on most chips early in anticipation of the silicon crunch that is coming this year. So far, we don't see anything that puts us at risk, short of there being massive unexpected upside on consumer demand (a good problem to have!).
    • belval 6y ago
      That's great to hear, for the record I really really hope that the project will succeed, the current trend in laptops is soldering everything and we are generating an insane amount of waste.
  • hinkley 6y ago
    I'm on a kickstarter that was supposed to ship in the fall and they've had quite a lot of trouble working with manufacturing partners to sort out quality control and pick one. Harder to discuss a physical object when you can't be in the same room.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• CarVac 6y ago
  I'd love a laptop where the keyboard is a removable PCB with low-profile switches and integrated USB connection so you can make a custom layout, like the Mitosis or ortholinear or anything you please.
  • leojfc 6y ago
    Yes, I would buy any laptop which offered an ortholinear keyboard option, with customisable firmware. I switched to using an Ergodox after long hours working on a MacBook Pro made my wrists start to hurt and my pinkie finger to go numb (and this was back in the day when a MBP keyboard was still decent!). I can still type full speed on a regular keyboard but it doesn’t feel as comfortable, and I think there’s a genuine health issue at least for some people.
• whoomp12342 6y ago
  what happens when you want a new CPU of a new socket type? what happens when you want 8k screens?
• tweetle_beetle 6y ago
  A bit like the comments about incongruous items in the recent Apple lab video, I find the presence of a Pocket Operator on the video demonstrating ease of assembly rather amusing. They already ticked the expensive camera box, but for proper hipster bingo success, you would also need: some kind of branded grid paper notebook, a metal mechanical draughting pencil, a teapot with loose leaf tea, audiophile headphones and a 40% mechanical keyboard.
  • nrp 6y ago
    You joke, but my Grado headphones and Swanson Speed Square were only not in the video because the shipment didn't arrive at the shoot in time.
    • tweetle_beetle 6y ago
      Appreciate the honesty, that gave me a chuckle. For what it's worth, I was only teasing about the marketing - I signed up to the newsletter and would like to see the product suceed.
• _448 6y ago
  After looking at this, I thought of another approach to achieve somewhat similar goal. Anyone interested in exploring the idea? I am a software engineer. So a hardware engineer and an industrial designer would be helpful to punch hole into my idea. Let us connect and explore some possibilities. My email is in my profile.
• rathboma 6y ago
  Wow this sounds like an almost perfect laptop for me
• rch 6y ago
  That looks a lot like my first laptop, the Sharp Actius MM10. I'd get one of these on that basis alone. The Ars article says the body is aluminium, but if I recall correctly, the Actius was a mag alloy of some kind (which I'd prefer). Either way, I'm curious.
  • nrp 6y ago
    The body is 50% post consumer recycled aluminum. We did consider magnesium alloy, but availability of recycled material, infrastructure for recycling, and costs are all prohibitive compared to aluminum.
    • rch 6y ago
      Makes sense, I just have a sensitivity to aluminum so I'm always looking for a way to get away from the MBP without going to plastic.
• owenversteeg 6y ago
  This looks really cool. I'm especially loving the weight. I really dislike a lot of recent laptops for their fragility and lack of upgrade capacity, so currently I'm using a T440P which comes in around 2.26kg - so if this is 1.3kg that's nearly a kilo of weight savings. The replaceable battery is great, the weight is great, the design is pretty good, and the keyboard seems fine - 1.5mm of key travel is usable. (The T440P has around 2.2mm, and according to [0] all current Thinkpads are 1.8mm except X1 Carbon/Yoga/L14/L15 at 1.5mm) My big question, though, is the durability. If you drop this thing a few times, will I have any problems? What about water damage - have you tested anything (intentionally or unintentionally?) Any drain holes? If I was to spill a decent bit of water on the keyboard, would that have a 10%/30%/80% chance of killing it? [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jhay05/which_current_thinkpad_has_the_most_key_travel/g9x6sj5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jhay05/which_curr...
  • bogwog 6y ago
    I too love my Thinkpad(s), but pitting this thing against such high standards is asking a lot. Sure it'd be nice, but I'm not going to hold it against them if their laptop can't survive a fire/spill/drop.
  • owenversteeg 6y ago
    Also, I'm sure there are lots of people in this thread who've tried a similar search, so what laptops are out there with most of the following: good keyboard, under 1.5kg, durable, battery life >6h, RAM > 8GB, semi-repairable? My current model is a T440p, so using that as a comparison. So far my search has turned up: - Old Macbooks where the keyboard was still decent (but unfortunately they're not too tough or repairable) - T470s or T460s: the T460s was the first model with the new magnesium case and the T470s keeps the same case (and is only a small change to the T460s.) Advantage of that is a 250g weight savings (1.35kg total!), 49 Wh battery that lasts 6-8 hours and charges to 80% in 90 minutes, traditional "yellow" Thinkpad charger on the T460s and USB-C charging on the T470s. It doesn't come at a huge cost in terms of durability either - still passes the MIL-STD-810. The T460s was the last of the S line to have drainage holes - the T470 and T460s have them, the T470s and T480s do not, but instead claim to have a "spillproof keyboard". Versus the T450s, it has HDMI out instead of VGA, has both batteries inside the case (no increased battery capacity), and better battery life with the base config. Unfortunately the batteries aren't removable on the outside, so it's a bit more of a pain to buy a used version of these (as you'd want to replace the batteries.) - T450s: same case as T440 versions, last model with VGA out (which is super useful, I had a popular rant on VGA here a year or two ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20431195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20431195) Basically a mildly upgraded T440s, which is a good, if heavy laptop. Default capacity of 48Wh (24+24) and total weight 1.58kg with standard battery - good for 5h new, or 96Wh (24+72) and total weight 1.77kg with extended battery - good for ~10h new. And you can hot swap because of the internal battery! - T480s: very similar physically (weight + case + materials wise) to T470s. Significantly faster processor than T470s, continuing the trend started by the T470s of spill resistant + no drain holes. Mechanical shutter for the webcam! Same keyboard as T470s, aka very good. Better thermal management than T470s! Speakers still the same old Thinkpad speakers, aka shitty. Slightly larger battery - 57Wh vs 51Wh in T470s - and a fast charge to 80% in 60 minutes - so 9-12 hours of real world battery life. If anyone has any additional models to suggest, please do!
• AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
  Looks like it's still tapering off towards the edge. Feel like they might've been able to fit slightly more space for port swapping if they had gone for the uniform aluminum slab design of the Chromebook Pixel, which, to me, is still beautiful: https://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/02/google_pixel_chromebook_hero.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/02/google_pixel_chromebook_he...
• josefresco 6y ago
  I can't imagine the stress of launching a "sustainable" tech product like this, knowing every aspect of the product and business will be ultra-scrutinized.
  • nrp 6y ago
    I had a 7 year long trial run for this by making consumer VR a thing ;)
    • josefresco 6y ago
      I guess confidence is not your main issue ;-)
• rodolphoarruda 6y ago
  This is really a great idea! Congrats to the team. I didn't read the entire text, but here's my question: do you have in your plans to ship worldwide.
• sleepybrett 6y ago
  Hints of the Sandbenders stuff from gibson's Idoru. But like the modular smartphone products (fairphone, essential phone, etc) probably doomed to failure.
• rathboma 6y ago
  How much linux support are you going to be providing? Eg S3 sleep and fingerprint sensor drivers?
  • kieranl 6y ago
    Tigerlake supports modern standby otherwise known as S0ix. We are also testing fingerprint support - but look out for Linux guides for instructions until things get upstreamed.
• simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  Which OS will you be able to run?
• hnedeotes 6y ago
  They look pretty good to me, I just shelled out for a laptop but would love to see the concept take over. The build quality is always the most essential: - monitor - this is what we look at for hours on every day - keyboard - I personally like macbook's perhaps is just being used to them (pre and post butterfly, that one I haven't tried) - trackpad - every other trackpad I tried besides mbs feel always a bit plastiky, also, no outside keys for the trackpad Good luck
• znpy 6y ago
  this is a fantastic concept. also, this look like a realistic way to tackle e-waste (not the apple-esque BS) I understand that most of the e-waste is in the motherboard and the battery, but still, it's something. It's a huge step in the right directions.
• rkagerer 6y ago
  With an aluminum rather than magnesium or other body, how bad do you anticipate the flex will be?
  • hinkley 6y ago
    Reinforcing fins can do quite a bit. Macbooks don't have a lot of flex. However, Apple has some patents that cover building up solid aluminum with stir welding instead of CNCing out of a solid block. You might have to challenge that patent (prior art, Boeing patents that may be older) to make it cheap, but if it's enthusiast targeted, an extra 50 bucks or whatever might be just fine for people.
    • baybal2 6y ago
      You cannot weld aluminium, or at least not on the cheap. The only real "weldable aluminium" known today are scandium-aluminium alloys which are both hard to get, and expensive.
      • hinkley 6y ago
        Cannondale bicycles would like to have a word with you. They started out making bikes out of 'aircraft aluminum' which if memory serves was [6061](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy), which is magnesium silicon, not scandium. Do you mean you can't weld aluminum in an oxygen environment? I think you're right about that at least. I think they used argon, and then had a patented(?) annealing process to keep it from falling apart under the customers. Not sure what they do now. You have probably flown in an airplane with stir-welded aluminum. Stir welding is a bit like... making velcro and sticking it together at exactly the same time. Nobody is building things out of 'aluminum' so it feels like nitpicking to argue about metalurgy for a company that is just going to buy stock in block or plate form. With a bunch of electronics nerds. I only brought the metal in to talk about stiffening and because some patents may make it difficult for them to build a work-alike that lives up to their hype.
        • 6y ago
• hinkley 6y ago
  That recessed port trick is something I've thought about every time I snag my Logitech universal receiver on my laptop bag. Only difference is that USB-C puts that idea on steroids.
• loop0 6y ago
  They have my attention here. As a long time thinkpad x220 user and tons of mods and upgrades in it I like the repairability approach. As a linux user I would prefer if they had an all AMD option. Congrats on this project, I hope you folks succeed and bring more companies to make laptops/hardware with the same approach.
• ctocoder 6y ago
  Intel based? That adds a 35% markup. AMD or ARM I would think would be platforms one would invest in if making something new.
• dbeley 6y ago
  For a laptop mainly targeting power users, I think it lacks several features for it to be a game changer: - trackpoint - real mouse buttons - exotic keyboard layouts (i.e ortholinear)
  • unionpivo 6y ago
    it has user replaceable TrackPoint and keyboard. So those could come later, if it succeeds. Plus they say it will support 3rd party developing accessories, so maybe ?
• subaquamille 6y ago
  Fairphone is doing interchangeability for... phones https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/ Although the feature/price is a bit below average brands, they are greatly priced if you take into account the sustainability. I Hope more brands will go this way so concurrence could help get better products and reduce electronic trash.
  • diurnalist 6y ago
    I was excited to take the leap and try the FP2, and ended up really disappointed by it. The quality of both hardware and software was just pretty bad. The casing would warp and pop off over time; I had to order 2 replacements in the 2 years I had it. Separately, at the time (maybe still the case), they didn't ship parts at all to the USA, so when I moved there, I was unable to get replacement parts. My microphone module got so flaky that it would periodically lose a good connection to the bus and the person on the other end wouldn't hear anything I was saying, which took a while to figure out. The connectivity was also awful, maybe also a USA thing. I couldn't get reception at either my work place or several apartments I rented. It was incredibly frustrating because I really wanted it to work. That they phased out FP1 parts after 4 years confirmed to me that it just wasn't worth it. I keep my phones for that long anyways, it may as well at least be built well. Oh, there were also compatibility problems with Android apps because FP OS development often lagged pretty behind, but that's a different story.
  • bigpeopleareold 6y ago
    I got my FP3+ on Friday, so here's to hoping for another 5-8 years of not buying another phone and repairing what I have :) (Switched after 8 years of using Nexus 5s and I did have to repair it, but someone gave me a new-ish one during that time.)
• desmap 6y ago
  Nirav, I don't want to be the guy but yeah. One the one side, I like that somebody finally takes care of products we really need—notebooks. That somebody enters the hardware game, one of the hardest spaces to conquer. On the other side, I am a bit underwhelmed. I mean this must the dream of every engineer, designer and 13-year old. Designing your own notebook. And what's the results? It's good, I would buy one, maybe. But is it a gadget I think of before I fall asleep? This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge clumsy bays nobody asked for and a non-centered displays. Worst, a design that doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone, something that wants to be liked, something Chuwi and BMAX, two low-end Chinese brands, would have designed better. Btw, celebrating this reparability feature, maybe you should check out what Schenker/XMG/Clevo or the Thinkpads do for years. Not that all of aforementioned are dealbreakers but IDK, let's says they do not make a good first impression. Look at following non-iconic notebooks[1]—I don't compare yours with iconic brands, this wouldn't be fair—but look what other non-premium brands are able to create. These are gadgets I dream of and you should think of restarting the project, seriously, I mean are you happy with this yourself or would Jobs be? [1] Brand new Chinese Yoga 14S https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/kifq5i/lenovo_yoga_14s_2021_arrived_in_time_for_christmas/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/kifq5i/lenovo_y... Brand new Asus Flow X13 https://www.reddit.com/r/eGPU/comments/l5fq7a/asus_rog_flow_x13_egpu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/eGPU/comments/l5fq7a/asus_rog_flow_... Razer Book 13 https://www.razer.com/productivity-laptops/razer-book-13 https://www.razer.com/productivity-laptops/razer-book-13 Asus G14 ACRONYM limited editon, https://rog.asus.com/microsite/ROG-ZEPHYRUS-G14-ACRNM/ https://rog.asus.com/microsite/ROG-ZEPHYRUS-G14-ACRNM/ --- PS: If anyone disagrees, pls comment and let me know where I am wrong thanks.
  • RussianCow 6y ago
    > This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge clumsy bays and a non-centered displays. Worst a design that doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone, something that wants to be liked. Not that all of these are dealbreakers but IDK, let's says they do not make a good first impression. Personally, I don't think they want to change too many variables at the same time. It makes sense to first create something that is familiar to users while offering the benefits they advertise, instead of alienating users right off the bat with a weird/different design that may or may not be successful. It's just unnecessary risk at this point.
• dfgdghdf 6y ago
  Reading down the proposed spec sheet, I'm starting to see how crappy the competition is! * Apple MacBook - Nothing configurable. Expensive and not build to be repaired. * Microsoft Surface - Much the same, but with Windows * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook, and much better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing premium features like an Aluminium case. * Dell XPS 13 - Much like the Lenovo, but the Linux option is nice. If they pull this off, developers are going to love it. I really wish them the best. My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux distributions.
  • protomyth 6y ago
    My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux distributions. May sure it works flawlessly with one of the BSD distributions and you know the Linux experience will be flawless.
  • f1refly 6y ago
    My first thought on it was that I love it and I want one, my second thought was that its really sad they don't have a thinkpad-like rubberized alloy case but only a subpar mac-like shell available. Tastes differ, I guess.
  • w0mbat 6y ago
    Intel processors are done in the laptop market. I'll stick with fast, silent, ARM based machines like the M1 MacBooks.
  • codemac 6y ago
    > Missing premium features like an Aluminium case. Magnesium is a different type of premium for some.
    • notretarded 6y ago
      Just don't get it wet!
    • SilverRed 6y ago
      Its extremely light. I initially thought it was plastic until I tapped and scraped my fingernail along the vents.
• pachico 6y ago
  This is just great and I wish then the best of luck. I will seriously consider them for my next laptop!
• danbolt 6y ago
  Part of me feels like by the time we get an interchangeable laptop/phone, it will be a bit like the PC where interchangeable parts were used off-the-shelf instead of custom made.
• dash2 6y ago
  The problem is that non-repairability has an economic logic. Essentially, you make a machine with a rather predictable lifetime. It is the equivalent of renting the machine out. You're can then offer support for that time period. If the time period is long enough, customers will want to upgrade the whole caboodle at the end. Everyone's happy. And with the focus on a single product, you have the scale to pour resources into product design. This approach will attract demanding customers - like the hn crowd - who will put demands on support as they customize and tinker. Then, if they extend it a lot, they'll likely buy from other suppliers who free-ride off your development work. So you lose repeat custom. Tl;dr: there's a reason why modern cars don't have easily accessible engines, and do come with fixed-term support packages. Bundling works. It may even be best for the consumer.
• mraza007 6y ago
  Reading about the project reminds me of Project Ara by Google as they were going to introduce modular phone where person can take on and take off the parts
• maxrev17 6y ago
  I hate to be negative, but the market has decided it wants un-repairable and un-upgradeable devices.
  • Udo 6y ago
    Judging by how much interest this has garnered on HN, there does seem to be a market. I think people would at least like the option. Every time I buy a laptop, it's a matter of tradeoffs. Some of these tradeoffs are technical (like battery life vs power), but some are purely based on what level of planned obsolescence the manufacturer thinks they can get away with. I'm not sure if there was ever a time when manufacturers competed solely on putting features into their hardware, but the situation right now is at least as much about how many antifeatures they can get away with. The "free market" stops working when every manufacturer does this and the barrier for new offerings is impossibly high.
• freeone3000 6y ago
  The port design is intriguing. My concern is your main competition, at least from me, is against Lenovo. Their thinkpads don't offer the modularity of IO ports, but instead simply offer "one of everything", with user-replacable SSD, HDD, and RAM modules, which is enough for most users. Swappable screens might be enough of a selling point, but, I'm holding out for the actual final specs. It doesn't look like it can fit a dedicated video card, so it's no competition for the Legion line, but it might stand up to the Thinkpad line.
  • GordonS 6y ago
    Do any of the modern Thinkpads offer user-replaceable parts? Any time I see Thinkpads recommend on HN, it's for older, 2nd hand laptops. Also, do any of such Thinkpads approach the lightness, thinness and aesthetic of this laptop? Last time I looked at new Thinkpads, I seem to recall they were pretty chunky, with only the Ideapads being thin, light and nice to look at (it was a while ago, so I might have that wrong tho)
    • freeone3000 6y ago
      The framework laptop is 16mm thick and 1.5kg. Those are the dimensions of a ThinkPad T480 and its successors. (As in, the framework laptop is not as thin or as light as you're assuming -- it's "standard" laptop size, not Ultrabook)
      • GordonS 6y ago
        According to the specs, this laptop is actually only 1.3kg and 15.8mm thick. As a couple of comparisons, the XPS 13 is 1.27kg and 14.8mm thick; the MBP 13 is 1.4kg and 1.56mm thick; the ThinkPad X1 Nano is 1.18kg and 13.87mm thick. Note you have to compromise with the X1 Nano, as it maxes out at only 16GB of RAM, and doesn't have great battery life. So this is lighter than an MBP, and basically the same thickness, all while being upgradable - you haven't convinced me that this isn't witchcraft ;)
    • danhor 6y ago
      I'm really happy with both of these aspects on my Thinkpad T14. It has user replacable ram (one slot), wifi, nvme drive as well as a remaining free m2 slot, used for WAN on models with that. Lenovo also tells you the partnumbers of replacements and I've been able to find many of them for sale around the internet. It's approx. the same weight and a tad thicker and I (personally) like the design. It also has a 16 thread AMD cpu, which was pretty important to me.
• adamc 6y ago
  I give them credit for an interesting attempt. I don't think I'm the market, but.
• wgjordan 6y ago
  "designed to last" sounds great, but it can also be an empty promise without any contractual guarantees. What's the warranty going to be on this product?
• VlijmenFileer 6y ago
  Another laptop with arrow keys so small they're unusable. No usable arrow keys means useless computer. What is wrong with laptop manufacturers making these broken keys standard? There's hardly any laptop left I could buy. A bit longer and I will have to drag an external keyboard everywhere just to use my laptop. Or just forgo laptop at all and start carrying some miny PC. It's insanity.
  • ben_ 6y ago
    Swappable keyboard
  • FPGAhacker 6y ago
    I certainly can understand the frustration. To offer another point of view, I’m not sure I’ve touched my arrow keys once in the last several years. I might have, but I don’t remember it if I did.
    • VlijmenFileer 6y ago
      Yeah I understand not everybody has the same use pattern. But my right hand about /lives/ on those keys half of the time. I got a new work laptop a few months, some 13inch Fujitsu with same arrow keys. It's also not a matter of time; I /still/ cannot properly use them. And though I'm Caucasian, I do not even have big hands. I honestly do not get it, there is easily enough place even on 13 incht laptops..
  • craftkiller 6y ago
    The librem 14 has what looks to be full-sized arrow keys: https://puri.sm/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/11300004-edited.jpg https://puri.sm/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/11300004-edited.j...
• ConfusedDog 6y ago
  Looks very interesting. Hopefully the pricing isn't ridiculous, and come with empty SSD/RAM so users don't waste money on a basic build. I have concerns about the port modules, as they are "mechanical moving parts" that I don't have good experience with, but definitely a better alternative than dongles in a lot of use cases. Signed up subscribed. Looking forward to see it in action.
• Vinnl 6y ago
  > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR) aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic. Like others have mentioned, I'm immediately thinking of Fairphone. Definitely going to keep an eye on this and hope it's still on my mind when I'm next in the market. Until then, I'm hoping they'll looking into responsible sourcing of conflict minerals [1] [2], possibly in partnership with Fairphone. Edit: Hmm, can't find an RSS feed. Anyone know if there's one I can follow somewhere? [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact/fair-materials-sourcing/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact/fair-materials-sourcing/ [2] https://www.fairphone.com/en/2017/02/01/fairer-materials-a-list-of-the-next-10-were-taking-on/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2017/02/01/fairer-materials-a-l...
• alex_duf 6y ago
  it seems like nrp is answering questions around here, so here's another one: will you be shipping to the UK and / or continental Europe? Edit: found the answer: "We're shipping in the US and Canada this summer and opening up additional countries in Europe and Asia before the end of the year"
  • elric 6y ago
    I hope they'll be partnering with an EU distributor so it's easier to reclaim VAT and to avoid having to pay import taxes.
• liminalsunset 6y ago
  Looks wonderful! Just a quick question - is Thunderbolt or USB4 support provided? I havent seen a mention of it on the site yet Thanks!
• cat199 6y ago
  looks awesome! but will take the opportunity to be a know it all critic from the peanut gallery to be annoyed by the schmarmy 'made with ♥' that i see on everything these days.. is anyone else as annoyed by this as I am? hmm... wouldn't stop a potential purchase though. kudos!
• nelsonenzo 6y ago
  pricing?
• TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Interesting tie but: Approximately 75% of the aluminium ever produced is still in use today as it can be recycled endlessly without compromising any of its unique properties or qualities. Aluminium’s life cycle provides significant benefits through recycling, saving 95% of the energy it would take to make new aluminium metal. https://aluminium.org.au/sustainability/recycling-sustainability/ https://aluminium.org.au/sustainability/recycling-sustainabi...
• ricardobayes 6y ago
  I was just this hopeful of Project Ara as this one. Really hope it can make it. Hardware is hard and expansion cards make it a lot more harder. All the best to the team! Hats off.
• wegs 6y ago
  If they release 3D CAD models, connector part numbers, and circuit schematics, I'm buying one as my next laptop (when my current one fails or goes obsolete; not as soon as it's released). I expect, if history is any indicator, that they'll be out-of-business by then, though. I'd want to know: - How parts connect at a modular level (e.g. pinout and signalling between LCD and motherboard, how the battery communicates, etc.). I don't need to know e.g. motherboard schematic / layout - Mechanicals (enough to 3d print things which fit) - Ideally, as much firmware open as possible (esp. places like battery) .. and so on. I'd pay a pretty good markup too. I do agree with many posts. I'm not obsessive about laptop size and weight. I want something sturdy and which works well for work. Battery life, cooling, robustness, etc. all matter a lot more than weight.
• ryanisnan 6y ago
  Wow, I would love to try this out. If the folks nail the hardware aspect, this is my future.
• aerovistae 6y ago
  Wait what operating system does it use?
• teddyh 6y ago
  Yeah, let’s pretend that firmware isn’t a thing and RYF certification isn’t important. /s I only care about repairability when it affects a product’s longevity. And if the drivers are proprietary and will be unsupported after the warranty runs out, who cares if I can repair the hardware? It’s useless anyway if I can’t get security updates to the thing.
• sto_hristo 6y ago
  This is something i need. I just can't bring myself into purchasing a laptop of any brand due to the black boxing and lack of upgrades. Sticking to desktop until this stagnated market exist the cave. In terms of design i value optimal decisions without going into extremities such as thinnest possible at all costs. Logo on the CRT-level of thickness bezels - nonsense. Bookmarking this and waiting for the reviews.
• RMPR 6y ago
  > install your preferred Linux distribution. Where do I sign? I can't help but wonder if those won't be more expensive than a same specs Laptop. It would totally be understandable but still...
• dorfsmay 6y ago
  Add: * An option for a good quality trackpoint and 3 buttons * A possibility to order a fully assembled model without an OS And you will quickly get a significant share of buyers from the ThinkPad/Linux crowd.
  • alrs 6y ago
    The patents on Trackpoint must have expired by now. I need 3 physical buttons, at minimum.
• VoidWhisperer 6y ago
  Any chance of thunderbolt 3 support? If the module port adapters are just (port) to usb-c on the inside then this seems unlikely
• PufPufPuf 6y ago
  "Founding news" like these aren't really that exciting -- I'll be excited once one of these "modular laptop / phone" companies manages to last a few years and actually deliver on their promises.
• ThinkBeat 6y ago
  I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That goes for laptops and cellphone in particular. Laptops used to allow easy replacement of battery, memory and hardrives at the very least. All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and the design more attractive. What bits me most is that a lot of younger friends I have, have no such expectations. Talk to them about a cellphone the answer is usually "well if you have had it for 2 years it is probably time to buy a new one anyway" Apples wireless earplugs are use and throw away. With a life expectancy of a little over 2 years from what I have read. No way to swap the batteries. I do not know if that figure is accurate. I live in Norway now and the government is doing all sorts of things "for the environment" but have no interest in laws to force hardware makers to sell equipment that can be easily repaired. Not that it would matter much for Norway, hardware makers would just pull out and the citizens would be very angry at the government. If the EU and the US could join forces on it there would be repaid change. I wonder if a latest generation Apple Air would be "easily" updated by Apple to allow end user replacement. I doubt it. Let say such a law could be passed, and it mattered, how much thicker and "less" attractive would things get. I wonder what engineering could come up with. Buying less, keeping things longer, and making things repairable should be at the very top of the green agenda. That would all results in less sales so no major government seemsm to go that way.
  • google234123 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure Apple goes far more for the green agenda than the old PC makers ever did - even taking into account the tiny savings you get from the few people that upgraded or repaired their laptops in the past.
    • magikaram 6y ago
      Apple, when you had repairs for a device, rather than repairing it, have actually ended up just throwing away the old device in favor of swapping for a new one. The past 6 years, they've made devices with no serviceable parts. Your RAM, Storage, Keyboard, among other parts - are all soldered to the board, riveted to the chassis, or glued shut. There is no way to service those machines. Once your Flash chips die, you need a whole new motherboard. Sure, Apple recycles some of the parts of the device, but environmentally, it's much better to support and repair a device than it is to simply crush it and recycle it.
• GordonS 6y ago
  This looks absolutely fantastic! Any plans for a larger version, 14/15", or maybe even 16"?
  • zepearl 6y ago
    I'll add that I'm looking since forever for a 16+/17'' *thin" laptop (currently using a Lenovo P71, which is a brick) - for some reason nowadays there are hundreds of 13/14/15'' laptops which are thin, but 17'' are always huge - the only thin one that exists, as far as I know, is the LG Gram 17, which is not available with my country's keyboard layout (Swiss German). Very important things for me would be the keyboard (normal layout, include insert&delete&pgup/down&home&end-keys arrowkeys should have a bump or similar to be located easily without watching, ideally as well a number pad - the one of Lenovo is excellent) and the resolution (FullHD not good enough on a 17'' - must be something higher, max 4k, ideally IPS). About the rest: normal CPU (at least 4 threads), normal RAM (8GB probably not enough, better 16GB), normal storage (1 normal SSD/NVME), maybe an ethernet connection, no separate/discrete GPU, no cd/dvd, 2 USB connectors, no superfast/superhot CPU in any case something which does not make the fan spin up often, does not have to be superlight. Cheers & good luck :)
    • GordonS 6y ago
      Yeah, reason I asked is that I find 13" just a wee bit too small for my liking, so it would be nice to have the option of something just a little bigger. Not 17" tho, even if it was light (it wouldn't be), it would be massive. Years back I got lumbered with a 17" CAD laptop from work, an HP I think. It weighed 5-6kg, which was ridiculous - I ended up with grazing all over my shoulder from my backpack! Luckily I managed to swap it after a short time.
      • zepearl 6y ago
        Sorry, I did misuse a bit your post to just add as well my own personal wish (as you anyway mentioned 16''...), but I'm sorry if it gave you the impression of me wanting to interfere with your own wishes, I absolutely didn't mean to :P I agree about 13'' - a little bit too small. I currently own as well a 14'' Lenovo X1 Carbon (4th gen) and I personally think that that's perfect to carry around and to work with (I do use it as well at home from time to time) (newer models have an even thinner bezel, which makes them even better). Yes, I absolutely agree that 17'' are quite a challenge to carry around (I remember that many years ago when I was walking around in Manchester with a thick Asus 17'' in my backpack, after a few KMs I started realizing that that was a mistake, hehe) - my usecase would be to use it mostly just at home or at least when not changing too often the workplace.
• antoineMoPa 6y ago
  Can we replace the Windows key by a Tux key?
• Klonoar 6y ago
  Just two months ago I posted this comment here on HN, bemoaning the state of laptops: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25565148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25565148 You all have made me very, very happy this morning. This is an amazing start!
• mirchiseth 6y ago
  Yes, this is so needed in the era of SoC notebooks. As much as Apple M1 is a leap forward we still need systems similar to frame.work notebook. A relatable story - I have an Acer notebook from 2013. I bought it from Microsoft store in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA. Over the years I have upgraded its hard disk to ssd, RAM and more recently wifi card to wifi 6 (learnt not to buy before opening the notebook. I bought an m2 card while in 2013 half mini pci cards were all the rage)
• 99_00 6y ago
  Worst case it fails as a product but succeeds in increasing knowledge to help move us away from throwaway electronics culture.
• remarkEon 6y ago
  Who actually makes the boards for this? I want to believe here, but I need to know a little more about the supply chain before I’ll pick one up.
  • nrp 6y ago
    One of the big Taipei-based notebook manufacturers who builds machines for other popular brands. We'll be giving deeper transparency into our supply chain once we get full sign-off from the folks we work with there.
    • baybal2 6y ago
      But in principle, who is doing the manufacturing, and getting a production ready design? Hearing "Taipei-based notebook manufacturer" I think already tells how it is, but I myself is totally OK with OEM laptops, especially if you put running Linux a priority. I had my own plans for making a designed from scratch x86 laptop with AMD Ryzen chipset a year ago. Covid of course made a change to my plans.
• gwbas1c 6y ago
  I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the hardware. If/when I return to Windows, a Framework laptop is definitely appealing. I'd rather change the ports than deal with a handful of dongles and adaptors. One thing to consider: I really want to try a laptop that comes with a good, well-supported Linux installation. (I haven't tried desktop Linux since the early 2000s.) I'm less concerned about "distro of my choice," because I really just want something that works well out of the box and is easy to learn.
  • deadmutex 6y ago
    > I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the hardware. Do you mean software? Or are you referring to the iMac? because on the laptop side, the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of simplicity. Build quality is a different story, etc.
    • gwbas1c 6y ago
      > the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of simplicity To the Framework? Oh heck yes! I switched to Mac when the rumors were that Windows Vista was going to be a flop. Today, I like MacOS better than Windows 10, but Windows 10 is very nice.
  • smoldesu 6y ago
    Side note, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with how far Linux has come. I recently returned to it for the first time in a decade, and it's pretty remarkable how mature the operating system is. Almost all of my "essential" apps have native versions (eg. Matrix, Spotify, Discord, Steam) and the ones that don't can be pretty easily emulated through Wine. It only took 2 weeks of playing around with KDE on my Macbook before I put it on my desktop as well. 2 months later, I'm still loving the decision.
    • gwbas1c 6y ago
      Which distro?
• umutseven92 6y ago
  If this works nicely with Linux I'll buy it day one.
• ezzato 6y ago
  Are the privacy switches hardware or software based?
• dheera 6y ago
  > 2256x1504 resolution This seems like a dealbreaker for me. No 2160p option?
• alkonaut 6y ago
  I’d buy a well built machine even if it was 3x as thick and 3x as heavy as other laptops, with 1/3 the battery life. I just need a movable machine, not an actual “laptop”. Many of us from home with our machines plugged to the wall 98% of the time, yet the thermal and power design is for a thin battery powered device. I want a 150W laptop with a 120mm fan.
• ehnto 6y ago
  A big part of reparability is how readily available parts are. Using commodity parts available to anyone really helps with this, and so hopefully for parts like the battery module and the screen, they are off the shelf items. It sounds like the team at Framework have that in mind, so I am hopeful. Also, this is a very small niche, but it would be rad if down the line they came out with a ruggedized chassis upgrade. A repairable laptop that can be used in the field? That would be a dream.
• essence_sentry 6y ago
  I love it guys, please take my money!
• unicornporn 6y ago
  Will it be available in the EU or US only? Buying from the US not an alternative considering toll fees, VAT etc.
• awill 6y ago
  This all sounds great, but I suspect this will be VERY expensive.
• jokoon 6y ago
  I hope it tries to follow a minimum of high standard for dust, humidity and heat, a little like thinkpads do. There are military standards for this, and I think it helps a lot to have a laptop that is durable.
• jhu247 6y ago
  Love seeing a startup focused on hardware. Skeptical about the success but bravo to their efforts.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• max_ 6y ago
  How much would this thing cost? Can it run an RTX GPU?
• gravyboat 6y ago
  Seems neat but using Intel chips over AMD is an immediate deal breaker for me.
• jakry 6y ago
  Is the Laptop also available with a AMD ryzen CPU?
  • enchiridion 6y ago
    Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable? Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder types, it really should support AMD.
    • tkinom 6y ago
      Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible. They definitively should design it to support motherboard swapping. Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32 cores ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.
      • nrp 6y ago
        We've designed the Framework Laptop for end-user motherboard swaps from CPU platform to CPU platform. We minimized the cost of that move by keeping the memory, storage, and WiFi socketed.
• EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
  How many dongles can one install simultaneously? I see only 2 in the video. Are there more on the other side?
  • nrp 6y ago
    Four Expansion Cards, two on each side.
• sevsco 6y ago
  They should send a model to Louis Rossman. He’s a MacBook repair guy who’s big on Right to Repair, and has a sizable audience on YouTube.
• auggierose 6y ago
  No powerful GPU seems to be planned, though.
• twobitshifter 6y ago
  I love the idea. My suggestion: To make the laptop “you” as the site says, you need to make the laptop outwardly expressive. Nothing is less unique than a apple logo on the lid. Zune did an amazing job some time ago with custom engraving artist designs and patterns on the back of their MP3 players. Maybe Framework could do something similar?
  • nrp 6y ago
    The bezel around the display is magnetic-attach and we'll be offering a range of colors for it.
• staunch 6y ago
  This is a great example of a problem where Apple has placed their own financial interests above their users. They could make their computers and phones highly upgradeable and repairable, they're brilliant at these kinds of engineering challenges, but they choose not to because they would (presumably) not make as much money as they currently do. But that leaves an opportunity for others to come along, like this company, and serve the market better than Apple. I hope this company succeeds at least enough to force Apple's hand, in the way Tesla forced automakers to move to EVs.
• jrmann100 6y ago
  This looks like a fantastic, albeit potentially costly, product, and I'm excited to see where it goes. For those of us who are happy with our current laptops but are still excited by the customizability of the Expansion Card system, are you considering creating USB-C hubs designed to work with the modules? The Cards obviously already adapt to USB-C but it'd be nice to have a dedicated hub to stack them and save space.
  • nrp 6y ago
    A controller just became available that makes this more doable. It is something we're exploring to broaden the usability of the Expansion Cards.
• conductr 6y ago
  My current work laptop has ports that get blocked when docked. Don’t do that
• cdnsteve 6y ago
  Exciting news on my bday, I signed up to be notified when this launches. I view this as progress in the right to repair vs youknowwho and I'd like to give this product a real shot. Bring on change and give the consumer options to customize, nice work.
• trilinearnz 6y ago
  Cool idea. Reminds me a lot of the earlier Thinkpads which had legendary swappability of components between models. For example, it was trivial for me to swap the superior keyboard on my T60 for the one on my T500. Not seeing anything about the ability to swap out the display, however... You seem to lose a bit of flexibility when embracing the unibody chassis.
  • nrp 6y ago
    The display is held in with fasteners behind the magnetic attach bezel.
    • trilinearnz 6y ago
      Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification :)
• giberson 6y ago
  I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop. However, to really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise of future upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap that shows expected future dates of upgrade releases. Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts every 1, 2, 3 or 5 years. Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and your expectation of how far behind graphic card modules will lag behind current gen cards, 1,3,5,10 years? Show me how long I'll expect to have to wait to double my storage, or ram. And most of all, what are the target price points of current and future upgrades.
  • metalliqaz 6y ago
    roadmaps are meaningless. talk is cheap. Just ask anyone who has ever bought into a "live service" video game, or countless other ambitious but later abandoned products. Here's what I can say for sure. The options for future upgrades will be correlated with the sales figures of the base laptop.
• ksec 6y ago
  >Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen Yes 3:2! Really wish Apple took this direction. But instead it was the PC industry moving towards it. For Desktop or Laptops that no longer has Gaming or Media consumption as their priorities, 3:2 is just much better for productivity.
  • bscphil 6y ago
    I must be the only person on HN who really likes 16:9. Actually I'd go further and do 2:1 if I could. The reason is that the vast majority of my work is done with two windows open, side by side. A wider aspect ratio gives you a much better picture of what's happening in both, especially if one of them is a web browser (so many sites assume a pretty large screen width these days). The fact that it works much better with media (e.g. watching or editing film footage) is just a bonus.
• tommica 6y ago
  I really hope this is successful, and that I could afford one of those some day, even as a pre-owned!
• grawp 6y ago
  Wake me up when/if they do AMD version with verified ECC support.
• Animats 6y ago
  Shipping Summer 2021 Does it actually exist?
• Dig1t 6y ago
  Remember that one time when someone tried to do this with mobile phones and then Google bought it and killed it? https://www.onearmy.earth//project/phonebloks https://www.onearmy.earth//project/phonebloks I really hope this is actually successful. I'd love a version with a larger screen as well.
• kvark 6y ago
  Looks like a great machine! I wish it had Ryzen 5000 option instead of Intel.
• Hasz 6y ago
  Look at the older Lenovo workstation laptops for an example of something similar. I have a P50 -- a 3840x2160 15" screen, 32GB of RAM, Xeon E3-1505M v5 @ 2.8GHz, and a removable battery. It also comes with space (easily accessible!) for extra drives, ram slots, etc. Even with the overkill Xeon CPU, I still get ~5hours of battery life on windows under moderate load. Most importantly, the service manual is a thing of beauty, and has detailed instructions for almost any replacement. This is a laptop designed to be used, upgraded, and used again.
• albertzeyer 6y ago
  I would love a 15" (or larger) version of such a laptop. I hope this comes soon. Also some other options for CPU and GPU would be nice. (AMD CPU. Maybe Nvidia GPU for CUDA. Or maybe even some ARM CPU?) How long does the battery last in this? Will this be available in Europe? (Or rather when?)
• zafiro17 6y ago
  Hey wow, I love this idea, this design philosophy, and this commitment to reuse. It occurs to me it may also solve another complaint I've always had with laptops, that you have to find the machine whose screen, trackpad, keyboard, weight, etc. ALL match your wishlist (with a desktop you buy the display you want, the external keyboard you want, the external mouse/trackball you want). This device lends itself to customization, almost like an ecosystem: hopefully some day they will offer a Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboard variant, or similar customizations. Better yet, open it up to niche customized hardware manufacturers and make it a market. Suddenly it becomes the substrate for an ecosystem of customized components. I love this idea. (For reference, my current approach to hardware reuse is to sytematically only buy used laptops. I save a ton of money too).
  • nrp 6y ago
    We do plan to offer Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboards. In a normal laptop, it would never really be feasible to do this because you'd be sitting on a lot of really niche, expensive inventory. In our case, the input assembly is one of the configurable items in the Framework Laptop DIY Edition, so we only have to stock the variants of that module, rather than full laptops. This lets us cover languages and layouts that have historically been missing from notebooks.
• throwaway69123 6y ago
  These things never work because consumers care more about brands than rights
  • whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    The job of their marketing team is to convince them to care
  • SilverRed 6y ago
    Also these things tend to work worse than the branded stuff, fail faster, and then the project vanishes after a few years so you never get to upgrade it anyway.
• IshKebab 6y ago
  > We’re here to prove that designing products to last doesn’t require sacrificing performance, quality, or style. Mmm conspicuous omission of price. Still, the end of Moore's law does make this sort of product make more sense.
• technojunkie 6y ago
  If this gets industry-leading battery power, it sounds like an excellent option. Would also be fascinating to see a wrap-around screen someday :) Only one major request: reconsider the arrow keys to match the current generation MacBook Pro. That space above the left and right arrow keys is priceless!
• wolfsayswof 6y ago
  I'm just gonna say it. The design looks like a hard copy of the Macbook Air.
  • whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    Which honestly seems to undersell the machine, you make something so unique then just made it look like the problem its trying to solve. Hope the design team have a little more bravery in future
• maxharris 6y ago
  One of the few things I like about my 13" MacBook Pro is that it isn't wedge-shaped, and the exterior design minimizes the number of lines and shapes a user sees from the outside. The chassis used in the Framework laptop is busy in comparison. I hope they decide to simplify the external design - this one is too busy, so I won't buy it. I don't like the way Apple is so user- and programmer-hostile, so the Framework laptop does have that going for it. I'm interested in this concept!
• throwawayX1 6y ago
  The only thing I don't love about this is that it's Intel and not Ryzen 5000. But if the promises hold true, this will definitely be my next laptop.
• jeromenerf 6y ago
  Nice project, even though I only buy second hand thinkpad. I would be more interested in a more innovative approach regarding the keyboard than the ports. This was solved with usb3 for me.
• xtat 6y ago
  It's cool but the MNT reform goes out of its way to be way more open. https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1365060706723393536 https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1365060706723393536
• jhatemyjob 6y ago
  How does this have 1400 upvotes. It's literally just a landing page for an unshipped laptop
• rock_artist 6y ago
  It’s really refreshing initiative in the laptop market. But how are those planned to be distributed outside the us? Will they use local distributors like other companies? Are they expect to have international warranty?
• The_rationalist 6y ago
  Note that while such projects are very promising, you can already get many customizations at buying time for regular laptops if you buy them on platforms such as https://www.hidevolution.com https://www.hidevolution.com It allowed to change the RAM & Disk but more customization are possible
• lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  This is a little off-topic, but it makes me proud that HN can have two major IPOs (one coinbase!) on the front page, but the top story is a damn-cool laptop we all want to tinker with. We have not been subsumed by The Man yet :-)
  • nrp 6y ago
    We were pleasantly surprised too! It's great to see the interest, and we can't want to get it out there.
• ripvanwinkle 6y ago
  Love what you are building and rooting for this. I've been waiting for something like this for atleast 10 years
• gohbgl 6y ago
  I like the idea, but I will 100% not buy it for these reasons (most important first): 1. Bad keyboard layout: Small arrow keys, lack of dedicated home/end and page up/down. 2. Screen is too small. I need at least 15.6 inch. 3. Replaceable ports are a gimmick. They waste space. Just put the ports there directly. 4. Intel CPU.
• boltzmann_brain 6y ago
  No mention of GPU
• Causality1 6y ago
  How about an option for actual damn buttons on my touchpad so I can tell where right click is?
• andrewrothman 6y ago
  Looks great. I'd love something like this. I assume it charges over USB-C? Any chance we can get a video of the laptop in-use, and maybe a few shots of it next to other popular laptops? Great design/hardware. Specifically the high res 3:2 display, camera privacy guard, and the weight. And the repairability / upgradability is awesome.
• alfor 6y ago
  It’s funny that the design is basically a macbook clone. Apple is way ahead with the M1, they will get rid of cooling, get massively better battery life and better performance. But I am angry too at Apple for their high price and upgrade looked systems.
• jascii 6y ago
  They claim "100% Yours", does that mean they managed to do away with the Intel Management Engine? I somehow doubt it... For the rest I see a lot of proprietary modules. I somehow can't help but be a bit sceptical. It smells like proprietary lock-in sold as "freedom". I think I'll keep waiting till Pine64 comes out with a RiscV based PineBook Pro.
• spion 6y ago
  2256x1504 resolution Finally, someone that knows about the sweet spot between fuzzy looking FHD and inevitably slow 4K. I'd buy this laptop just for that bit of (nowadays rare) common-sense thinking. Webcam is just icing on the cake. Hope the keyboard is more similar to a Thinkpad rather than a Macbook. Even if not, I'm sure that will become an option soon if the project is a success
• mpd 6y ago
  13 inches simply isn't enough for what I need. I'd consider this today if I could get a 15 inch screen.
• dang 6y ago
  Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on it), so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More at the bottom of the page, or like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=3 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=3 Apologies for the annoying repetition. It will eventually go away.
• knz_ 6y ago
  As cool as this is, it's a DOA product with no real market outside super savvy consumers. Uninformed consumers already buy the cheapest laptops they can find on Amazon or in the store. If repairability is super important to someone, what incentive is there to buy this over a used thinkpad? You can get skylake thinkpads for less than $200 on ebay - replacement batteries and displays cost less than $100.
  • eightails 6y ago
    I really hope you're wrong and this device achieves success, but you may well be right honestly. I suspect they'll have to charge premium prices, but that might be justifiable even considering the availability of cheap Thinkpads. As good as $200 Thinkpads are, they are old devices, with dim, low res screens, old processors, poor battery life, relatively thick and heavy chassis, old ports, old wifi/bluetooth etc. Again, perfectly functional for many people, but I think there are legitimate reasons to want a newer device. Maybe there's enough of a niche market there, who knows.
• soheil 6y ago
  If I have to install Ubuntu Desktop or god forbid Windows to use your laptop you already lost me. Why doesn’t someone try to tackle the operating system problem first? I literally don’t care about the physical laptop as much as the software running on it. Also everyone always says hardware is hard so why not focus on a software solution for existing laptops? If there was an operating system half as good as Apple’s I’d never buy a MacBook again.
• King-Aaron 6y ago
  Looks nice from the images, but personally I'd like to see those port adaptors house a combination of multiple sockets, not just one per module. That's going to be a PITA to keep swapping them out. Also the thermal management doesn't look amazing, but I guess they aren't looking to have big GPUs in them etc. I really like the idea though, hopefully these guys do well from it!
• pbronez 6y ago
  I would love to see an e-ink display upgrade for this!
  • nrp 6y ago
    We'd love to see that too! The Dasung 13.3" is actually sized just about right to be able to mod into our lid assembly. It's probably not a thing that we'll do ourselves, but it would be great to see someone try it.
• 0xbadcafebee 6y ago
  I use a 5 year old IdeaPad 510S with a Core i7 and SSD, and I have no reason to replace it yet. I did upgrade the single 8GB stick to 16GB just for the heck of it. But I can't imagine needing a new one for another few years at least, it feels plenty fast (and I'm the nutter with 80+ tabs open)
• ibraheemdev 6y ago
  Just curious, why Intel over AMD? AMD has been dominating the CPU market lately in price for performance.
  • Stevvo 6y ago
    AMD's competitive mobile chips are bit different; higher TDP, higher core counts. Not ideal for a thin and light machine.
    • ibraheemdev 6y ago
      I thought the 4000U series was supposed to be more efficient than Intel but still provide higher core counts?
    • ben-schaaf 6y ago
      This is simply false. AMD has recently been ahead in performance/W leading to lower TDP while also being faster than Intel. Mobile AMD chips can be configured down to 10W even with 8c/16t.
• bfrog 6y ago
  No pointer nib, no buy.
• agnosticmantis 6y ago
  “At Framework, we believe the time has come for consumer electronics products that are designed to last.” Is this another way of saying Moore’s law is dead?
  • sangnoir 6y ago
    I think it's another way of saying "We're bringing back non-soldered RAM/storage and standard slots and not chasing after thinness for thinness sake".
• rStar 6y ago
  sign. me. up. especially if they go core boot or similar.
• Ayesh 6y ago
  I upgraded my five year used laptop just last month, and this would have been an ideal one. However, lack of an AMD CPU is a kind of deal breaker for me, even if it means I wouldn't get USB 4.
• aasasd 6y ago
  > Our Expansion Card system makes adapters a thing of the past, letting you choose exactly the ports you want and which side of the notebook you want them on PC Card, is that you? Long time no see.
• jrmski 6y ago
  The year of the linux laptop?
• apricot 6y ago
  Not a terribly important question in the grand scheme of things, but what's the rationale behind making the \ key and the Enter key touch each other? I've seen it on other keyboards as well and cannot imagine what's gained by doing it.
  • ali-tny 6y ago
    Perhaps it's to make things (slightly) easier for people used to ISO layout keyboards? You could set both touching keys to be enter, and not have to relearn muscle memory - kind of, because you'd still have a weirdly long lower-enter compared to what you were used to.
  • nfw2 6y ago
    The purpose of this feature is to ward off those of us with design OCD. We are the most annoying users to support
• eyelidlessness 6y ago
  @dang > Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on it) I have a very meta interest in the tech/design/implementation behind HN. I've built a dark mode theme for the site because you asked the community to fill that gap. I'm wondering if whatever work goes into this perf improvement might be something y'all could talk about when it's ready? I'd love to know more about what's behind the incredibly 1999 frontend, and how it keeps up with the huge volume it gets.
• freakynit 6y ago
  Just add a GPU please. A whole community of people buy windows laptops just so that they can game on it. For work, Mac's are still best choice. But hats off to the initiative. Wee needed this.
  • jpetso 6y ago
    A laptop in this form factor won't be great for gaming even if you put a dedicated GPU inside, there's not enough room for cooling and especially not when replaceable components take up more space. For half-decent laptop gaming, you either want a giant beast or an eGPU (generally via Thunderbolt).
• VectorLock 6y ago
  I'll be interested when I can click on "Buy" and it has a price. Otherwise, I would be very interested.
• msie 6y ago
  It’s too bad it doesn’t have buttons for mouse clicks. I can’t do precise mousing when the touch pad is also the mouse button. Too bad so many laptops do this.
• dudeinjapan 6y ago
  I love the concept. Finally someone gets what matters in a laptop. Other companies have made similar products (I have an ultralight Samsung that I love) but they always seem to lose interest and the next year's model comes out bloated and heavier.
• LindaGsd97 6y ago
  Wannа cаsuаl seх? Мy pussy is at уour dispоsal! Find my prоfilе with рhone number here --> https://news.ycombinator.com@oo.lc/kERN2 https://news.ycombinator.com@oo.lc/kERN2
• perlpimp 6y ago
  man if you'd only squeeze mech keyboard in this shell or a little thicker.
• cafxx 6y ago
  Since we have the designers lurking in the thread, I may venture to ask something I have been wondering for a while: would it be possible to use the lid (back of the screen) as an additional radiating surface to improve thermal dissipation of the internal components (CPU, GPU, ...)? Or is it an intractable mechanical problem?
• sriku 6y ago
  The spec says "Intel Xe Graphics". Any more details on this GPU? Is it this one - https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/211013/intel-iris-xe-max-graphics-96-eu.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/211013/... ?
  • jpetso 6y ago
    They say Intel 11th Gen CPUs, so the particular one will likely be the one that ships with your pick of Tiger Lake SKU. The Xe MAX card is useful for particular niche cases, such as encoding videos with good power efficiency, but because it's no more powerful than the top-range built-in Tiger Lake iGPU, there would be little point in putting it in most laptops.
• rasengan0 6y ago
  It's 2021 and I can't believe we have to recycle perfectly good laptops because of swollen batteries or other replaceable components not easily serviceable. That was not the case for my 1983 Apple //e. And now Chromebooks EOL, sealed Macbooks, the next best Surface? Computers have become appliances for the landfill after data extraction from the platforms. I hope frame.work marketplace thrives, consumers need freedom from the tyranny of convenience. 50 million metric tonnes of e-waste and going https://www.ft.com/content/26e1aa74-2261-11ea-92da-f0c92e957a96 https://www.ft.com/content/26e1aa74-2261-11ea-92da-f0c92e957... We need a different mindset.
• coldtea 6y ago
  I think the best comment is this in Ars: "The reason stuff like this doesn't succeed isn't because you can't do it, it's because few people are willing to pay for the increased costs or other tradeoffs to get something repairable/configurable/upgradeable." Which is a same, but it is what it is...
• john4532452 6y ago
  This is really cool. What does 1.5mm keyboard mean ? Does it mean 15mm, because 1.5 mm is too small to feel at the fingers.
• ramino 6y ago
  Finally! I hope this company will be insanely successful. We need more companies like this focusing on repairability.
• mjgs 6y ago
  I’m definitely down with laptops that have parts that are fully replaceable. It’s not something you really think about until it’s too late, and as such can really land you in some serious issues depending on where you are located in the world. On a related note, why is it that Linux desktop hardware compatibility is such a hit or miss affair? I would have thought that given the ethos of the platform and the sheer number of people using Linux worldwide this could be a solvable problem. I read about VLCs 20 birthday recently and one of the things that made it such an amazing piece of software was that it came bundled with every single codec imaginable. It was revolutionary at the time that it just played literally every single video file you had in your computer. My point is, that it is possible. If there was a website a bit like caniuse.com, that listed every Linux distro and test results with various hardware. People could register to be ‘drafted’ to test new releases, and there could also be associated discussion forums for workarounds etc. Even if it was just for laptop hardware, it would be amazing. Not knowing if an expensive purchased laptop will work or not is such a big barrier to entry.
• wiz21c 6y ago
  FTA : > Most consumer electronics devices are disposable one-offs by design. The single best way to reduce the environmental impact of electronics is to make them last longer. Yes. And I really don't see why a framework PC can help with that. If you want to make them last longer, then make hard drive that last longer, motherboards that last longer, etc. Also, make sure the user needs stay the same for longer (for example, as a Linux user, my needs have been fullfilled by my PC for about 12 years now, I just added a bit more RAM (4 gigs) and a new low cost gfx card; notice that upgrading my Debian never resulted in more hardware needs) > In addition to enabling longevity, we’re focused on improving sustainability across the life of our products. Just don't produce them. It'd be more helpful if those brains would help big companies to do things better. No, instead, they think they're smarter, and that being smarter, somehow, translate into money making. > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR) aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic. Count how many grams that is. Compare that to a car, which you change about as often as a mobile phone or laptop. > Our packaging is fully recyclable with no single-use plastics, And who's going to take care of those plastic. Me ? Just don't use plastic (and if you're so smart, then figure out a way to not need plastic in packaging) > and all of our product shipments are carbon offset. Yeah, and what about the other part of the iceberg, ie, the carbon produced while producing your laptops ? I'm all for ecology, reuse, etc. But at some point, if you're smart, you must realize that all of that is pixie powder. As I said, I'd much prefer : - if hardware producer would guarantee a 20 years+ longevity - would reduce the number of form factors (so we can have less production lines) - would optimize for energy consumption (hey, my washing machine comes with a nice card explaining how much energy/water it consumes) - would create less market segments. We don't need a new CPU model every year. Look, my kid changes its game console (not exactly ecological either) every 5 years, so it's perfectly doable. - OS producer would make sure OS upgrade doesn't require hardware upgrade All of that is way more political than technological.
• parski 6y ago
  I love that it's repairable and upgradeable but that Intel chip has to go.
• foft 6y ago
  I'd be keen to make an FPGA based custom cpu board to go in, presuming they release port pinouts, timings and signalling details. This could be used for hardware laptop versions of legacy computers - Amiga, ST, Atari 800XL etc. Particularly if there is a slot for custom external ports to be exposed.
• edpichler 6y ago
  My dream is to have this one but running Mac OS. Or a Macbook having this upgradeable features, where I know it will not happen soon as it's against the planned obsolesce of the industry.
• kunalpowar1203 6y ago
  My naive question is "how do you guys manage profitability? and hence survive as a company". That's the one point that I can't explain to someone when I rant about companies making devices that cannot be repaired and would last an average 3 years.
  • gohbgl 6y ago
    Well, in the tech space this is very easy to explain: They survive by selling new devices. People will eventually buy new laptops to get access to faster hardware.
• werber 6y ago
  I looked at this yesterday and loved the slide out adapters, then last night I had a dream my macbook had them. Haven't loved a concept so much it crept into my dreams via HN ever.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• mrtweetyhack 6y ago
  WTF you include a screwdriver? I mean a majority, if not all of us already have multiple screwdrivers. Stupid.
• bfrog 6y ago
  Why not have a pointer nib, its the reason I've continued to use ibm and now lenovo laptops. Trackpads are RSI inducing.
• oblio 6y ago
  To people hoping this will succeed (which I would very much like it to, personally), think about this: 1. Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets? Do you know regular, passive folks (so not the standard HN overachiever) doing this? I don't know anyone doing this. 2. Do you repair your home appliances? Same thing, I don't really know anyone doing this. Of course, this being the internet, someone will reply "yes, I do this", but my reply to that: "of course someone does it, but it's not a real market, there isn't any money in this". Poor people tend to repair their stuff, well off or rich people don't do it because it's a negative status symbol. And poor people can't afford expensive stuff, which this will probably be. Poor people can't afford high up-front costs, even though TCO might be awesome.
  • salusinarduis 6y ago
    I don't patch my clothing but I absolutely do repair appliances using guides I find on Youtube and blogs. I've also always been a custom parts pc guy, so it appeals to me, and I think there are tons of people like me based on Reddit's communities for this stuff.
  • vb6sp6 6y ago
    Anecdotal but whatever: I know a lot of people who try and fix their own things. The most prolific fixer I know is quite well off
  • e12e 6y ago
    > Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets? Socks, generally no - by the time they've got holes, they're usually overall worn down anyway. I don't generally patch t-shirts or boxers (same reason), but I do sew worn seams, and patch pants, sweaters and jackets. I don't personally replaces zippers, but there's a local shop that does. For eg gortex outwear, it's possible to fix minor holes (like from sparks from a bonfire) with repair tape.
• aagha 6y ago
  Really interesting, but I wish the decision had been to go down the path of using AMD Ryzen rather than Intel: Cheaper, faster, and better battery life.
• Epskampie 6y ago
  Please consider making the left and right arrow keys half-height, so you can easily feel them out by hand. Macbook recently made this change with good reason. I’ve got the older model, and it’s hell if you’re used to a standard keyboard.
• andix 6y ago
  I don't see the point. I get myself a new ThinkPad every 3-6 years. The devices are completely repairable, every part can be exchanged. After the warranty period though, a lot of repairs don't make sense any more. After my usage period of a few years, nearly every part of the device is worn out. The case is scratched and sometimes broken. The screen too. The battery (probably the 2nd or 3rd) reached the end of its life. The logic board including CPU and GPU is not strong enough any more for the newest software. I don't want to continue using the SSD, because the wear level went up, and I don't want to lose my data. Normally I give away the device as a present, for some one who has less demands in a laptop than I do. I probably could also sell it to a refurbishment company. So what would be the benefit with that laptop?
• superinterwebs 6y ago
  how about a microphone hardware switch?
• axiolite 6y ago
  This is the wrong way to go. Put together a battery, monitor, keyboard and pointer in a foldable package, with an open space to drop-in and connect one of the many mini PCs out there. The "laptop" part could last for decades, while the customer just swaps-out the mini PC inside it every couple years to upgrade.
• t0r0nat0r 6y ago
  This won’t fly...
• paingod 6y ago
  Honestly I can't wait. I'm a long time Windows and Mac user and believe me if I can hackintosh this I will (definitely need help from the community). Is there still time to make your packaging reusable in the style of Samsung's boxes (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwidxu6H5pPvAhXIfMAKHSzeBs8QFjAAegQIARAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.samsung.com%2Fglobal%2Fsamsung-to-introduce-eco-packaging-for-its-lifestyle-tv-lineup&usg=AOvVaw2V2iuvtTcd2NPlgttHz_Iu https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...). This will be a big help for nature