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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

d33 6y ago
> To date, workers in Germany can only write off work costs at home if they can prove they have one room in their household dedicated solely to work. How does one prove they don't use the room for anything else? Webcam recording throughout the month? Also, this kind of deduction favors the rich as the poor can't afford having one room just for that.
- chadlavi 6y ago
  I would guess it's more a matter of room count. If you have a room that isn't a bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, or living room, you could claim it. You can't claim your apartment's living room though. It absolutely 100% favors the rich. As do most tax incentives.
- CallMeMarc 6y ago
  This policy is so outdated, you literally aren't allowed to have more than ~10% personal belongings (like family pictures) in the room. Also you're afaik not allowed to have a bed/couch inside which makes a guest room/home office setup impossible.
- logifail 6y ago
  > this kind of deduction favors the rich ...and/or favours the educated: if you have to go to the bother of knowing about this allowance _and filing a tax return_ to claim. In Germany many (most?) employees pay their income taxes automagically via payroll deductions and so aren't required to submit an annual return.
- lotu 6y ago
  More suburban than rich. I seen million dollar NYC apartments that where it doesn't make sense to have separate room for work and the work "room" is more of wide hallway combined with the kid's beds. A more fair options would be to still allow the room option for simplicity but also allow you to deduct things by the square foot so even if your office is just a corner it could count, though that is really mushy and people don't like mushy tax laws.
- wallwart 6y ago
  In theory one can say they use 25% of their bedroom or living room for work, and hope that the tax man is lenient enough to accept that. But then you also need to submit the floor plan or square footage measurements in order to get something deducted from your rent/utilities. And probably pay someone to do all this for you due to the huge number of caveats. German tax law truly is something else. Completely favors the middle class that can afford to keep one room for 'work'. One wonders if starving artists can get some tax returns for their attic shoebox ateliers.
- ryneandal 6y ago
  Tax deductions in the US were very similar for at-home work. It's absurd because I'm working in that room for between 6-12 hours during the work week (sometimes on weekends when needed), but also used it for a "den" during nights/weekends when I wanted to watch a movie/play a video game as well. This is incredibly common for home offices.
- inv13 6y ago
  Can't wait for a lawman to randomly knock on my door and check in on my home office. :)
mabbo 6y ago
Luxembourg has some laws like this already, or so I've been told. I worked for a little while on a project with a team based out of the Luxembourg office (Amazon). They mentioned casually that it's illegal for them to be paged from like 10pm to 6am. Not that the company policy forbids it, that the LAW forbids it and the company would be in serious trouble. If the company needs an overnight on-call operator, they have to hire one (or, in Amazon's case, just have a team in Seattle, 9 hours offset, handle night on-call).
- MetalGuru 6y ago
  Same with Ireland, I believe.
0xfaded 6y ago
In other news, EU pushes to build a giant bikeshed.
- deleted 6y ago
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Proven 6y ago
On the one hand you could say those EU guys are all morons. And many indeed are. But on the other, if we were to think about what this means, it's socialism - BNI, aka the right to work from home, be paid the same as real workers, and at the same time not even be reachable. So it's a handful of globalist manipulators leading a pack of useful idiots.
CommanderData 6y ago
Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often see people working through while they aren't fully capable mentally but are too afraid to say so. We need measures like this ASAP.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Christmas plans with family or (b) go to the office anyways. The two pools must be kept separate as a public health measure. To do anything else gives a massive incentive to be a vector for illness.
  - ljm 6y ago
    I presume that is the US, in which case the US has a hell of a lot of catching up to do in terms of workers rights, and work ethic in general. Not to say we are perfect in the EU (and the UK, how I wish I didn't have to specify that separately now :(), but it's leaps and bounds ahead.
  - matsemann 6y ago
    Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punished for being sick.
raister 6y ago
> The new legislation, which is expected to be passed by Germany's Bundestag parliament, would allow workers to write off €5 ($6) per day to offset extra heating and electricity costs. That's not feasible or scalable. As it is a balance, they will give you this but will take out somewhere else (less yearly increase and so on). It's almost a disservice...
- yread 6y ago
  We have travel compensation 0.19eur/km but got a question from HR how many days were we actually at the office this year since march. 0 for me. So there would be a lot of budget for covering heating, electricity and the wear and tear on my PJs and slippers
- lagadu 6y ago
  Yearly increase in what? Salaries? This would be something that gets written off from the taxes that your employer pays directly to the state for you. Plus if my getting money for the amount of kilometers I drive between my home and the workplace is scalable and working fine, why wouldn't this be?
- gattilorenz 6y ago
  > As it is a balance, they will give you this but will take out somewhere else (less yearly increase and so on). It's taken off your taxes, not payed directly by your employer
- brainwad 6y ago
  No, it's totally feasible. In 2019, businesses had expenses related to keeping offices habitable, that reduced their taxable income. Those offices are now closed, so they will have higher taxable incomes than they otherwise would. This will offset the lowered taxable incomes of from-home workers.
- lol768 6y ago
  It's been this way in the UK for a long time, though it's set at £1.20 no-questions-asked via the basic PAYE portal and any amount you want to claim over the £6/week threshold on the self-assessment if you can evidence it (with receipts) and prove it was necessary for the remote work.
dahfizz 6y ago
> The right to disconnect refers to a worker’s right to be able to disengage from work and refrain from engaging in work-related electronic communications, such as emails or other messages, during non-work hours.[1] What does that even mean? Is the EU also going to come out with the "Right to breathe" and the "Right to go to the bathroom when you need to"? I'm really frustrated with how the term "right" has been watered down. Rights used to be innate freedoms of the utmost importance, something worth dying for. Now it's just shorthand for some benefit the government provides, or something that the government allows you to do (often with lots of stipulations). Rights are no longer something innate to all humans, they are something that the government gives to you when it wants. [1]https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/industrial-relations-dictionary/right-to-disconnect https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/indust...
- troughway 6y ago
  >What does that even mean? Is the EU also going to come out with the "Right to breathe" and the "Right to go to the bathroom when you need to"? Have you seen amazon's warehouse work conditions?
  - 0xfaded 6y ago
    Every regulation like this is a band-aid, and more band-aids will just make the EU even more quintessentially the EU. If the governance focused on restoring negotiating power to workers, you wouldn't need to write to your MP to go to the toilet.
    - yladiz 6y ago
      Are you saying I should have to negotiate the number of toilet breaks I get?
    - chmod775 6y ago
      >If the governance focused on restoring negotiating power to workers The right for workers to form a union is also a worker's right worth protecting. But this is not a workable solution for every single employment relationship.
hawktheslayer 6y ago
I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.
- rapsey 6y ago
  But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?
    - rapsey 6y ago
      If the kid is too young to understand the issue why not? Someone clue me in why that is so bad.
      - ryneandal 6y ago
        It isn't. Work/home separation is important when you have children. My kids know when my door is shut, it means I'm "not home." I've primarily worked at home for six years now, and it's been an incredibly effective method for providing that needed separation. When the door is open, or if I come out of my office, they know it's a free-for-all for my attention, and I'll often walk out to play with them from time to time to clear my head and/or relieve some work-related stress.
  - alias_neo 6y ago
    Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not created to be work places, and employers need to accept that as another commenter eloquently put it; we're not working from home, we're at home during a crises, trying to work.
fmfam 6y ago
I've been working from home for 15 years and such articles make me laughing. Media simply try to fill the vacuum they are in and their efforts are simply ridiculous.
- slykar 6y ago
  I kind of feel you, but those people are new to this (employers and employees). They have no idea what they are doing, they are scared and they want someone to resolve this issue for them. Any experienced person just turns off their phone or snoozes notifications. People have flex working hours and some co-workers send me messages at 1 am. Should they go to jail or what? Everything could be solved with a little bit of education.
  - fmfam 6y ago
    You know, I could tell a lot about self-organisation, how to arrange things, and how to make your wife and children think you're absent when they see you working in the dinning room. But you're right, people en masse are new to this.
deleted 6y ago
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aminozuur 6y ago
What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?
- bob1029 6y ago
  This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge. But, these policies also put tricky restrictions around those who love the challenge of ridiculous overtime sprints (These people do actually exist). Protecting the general case can temper the edge cases. In this situation, I would argue the "edge cases" are not adverse. I think you want those types desperately, because that's where all the frontier advancement usually occurs. I.e. the linux kernel didn't get written over a bunch of carefully-metered 40 hour work weeks with mandatory EU breaks throughout. Works of passion and innovation need to occur organically, and in all cases this involves periods of furious productivity interspersed with total dead zones. I actually caught some flak from a developer because I kept insisting that they have worked plenty this week so far and should consider taking a break. I eventually got a sharp rebuke like - "Why can't I work on this if I really want to?". I was left with no rational response beyond stating arbitrary metrics. This is a reaction that I could see myself having as well if the roles were reversed. Perhaps we should arrive at a system where the EU restrictions are default, and employers can file for exemptions using some reasonable process in which employees participate via explicit opt-in, and the opt-in status in no way predicates acceptance of the applicant by the employer.
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    I think this really isn't for cases where workers are happy to work longer days. But for situations where groups like managers are expected to work outside regular working hours constantly. And this also comes to having clear laws that companies can't retaliate(fire) someone if they don't work outside working hours. So if you are a developer and want to do 60 hour week writing code. You could do that under flexible hours. It is just that the employer can't force you to do that or expect you to regularly work outside regular hours. On other hand being "on-call" is something different. It can be compensated and hours worked will be considered overtime with multiplier.
vfc1 6y ago
You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most managers know this, and turn a blind eye as it's in their best interest to get employees to work as much as possible.
- gtfoutttt 6y ago
  >I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.
  - jusssi 6y ago
    It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.
    - bonestormii_ 6y ago
      The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. And even so, plenty of senior positions suffer from this situation as well. I'm living this hell right now.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        >The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.
userbinator 6y ago
Seeing this is surprising, as none of the places I've worked expects me to work outside of normal working hours, in the same way they don't expect me to do personal activities in their working hours.
- vorticalbox 6y ago
  Same with my work, however I have noticed I tend to work over my hours because I get wrapped up in programming.
- Cederfjard 6y ago
  So you’ve not even heard of such a thing? May I ask where you are based?
jbverschoor 6y ago
IIRC France already has some measures in place
- IshKebab 6y ago
  As does the UK. You can write off £6/week saving you a whopping £100 over the year (assuming lower rate tax). Better than nothing at least!
  - jbverschoor 6y ago
    I meant that employers get fined if they email you outside working hours. And I heard some companies simply delete email outside working hours.
    - slykar 6y ago
      What is considered "working hours" if you have flex time? This sounds utterly ridiculous. It's not like people have Alexa hooked up to company email screaming and flashing their lights at night when they receive a new company email.
cutitout 6y ago
I'm very happy to see that the German tax break is basically the opposite of what Deutsche Bank Research suggested, namely extra taxes for people who WFH, because they "contribute less public transport and the economy", and should "pay a tax for that privilege". They suggested the employer pay it, but still. https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/homeoffice-deutsche-bank-strategen-schlagen-steuer-auf-heimarbeit-vor/26617406.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/...
- k__ 6y ago
  Sounds dumb. There are forms of self-employment in germany that pays less taxes explicitly because they types of work don't require as much public infrastructure as other types of work.
- slykar 6y ago
  Lol. Less transport = less wear on the extra expensive roads. Less pollution, less crowd, less money for oil industry. If anything, people should be blessed and get tax returns for WFH.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  I suspect that was a proposition from some out of touch internal bank junior who had no idea how badly that would go down with the general public let alone the whole "bringing the employer into disrepute" aspect.
  - cutitout 6y ago
    Well, the article speaks of "Deutsche Bank strategists" and "experts", and it is Deutsche Bank Research that made the suggestion. Digging further, the person who made the suggestion is a "Macro Strategist" doing "Macro Research", certainly not just a junior. https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000513736/A_work-from-home_tax.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000051... there are countless articles to be found about this if you just look for anything like "working from home tax deutsche bank", for example: https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-bank-proposal-to-levy-income-tax-on-remote-workers-draws-criticism-in-germany/a-55645805 https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-bank-proposal-to-levy-income-... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5percent-tax-for-remote-workers-post-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5pe...
k__ 6y ago
Sad that hey capping the yearly tax break in Germany by 600€. I think this whole remote work movement could really heal the bigger cities and flush a bit more taxes into the smaller ones.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
Yeah, those Europeans. Such workaholics... We need something like this in the states though.
mediascreen 6y ago
As a European I hate these types of EU initiatives. Why not let member states decide on this themselves? When Sweden voted to join the EU there was a lot of talk about the subsidiary principle[0], but it seems almost completely forgotten now. I guess one could argue that it affects the internal labour market in some way, but so could pretty much any issue. I would love to see more members of the EU parliament vote against proposals like this, but I guess it's hard to be on record as saying no to something you might be in favour of - if raised on another level. [0] "Specifically, it is the principle whereby the EU does not take action (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level." (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html)
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
  Given that one of the fundamentals of the EU is freedom of movement of workers, workers rights fall right into core competences of EU legislation.
  - mediascreen 6y ago
    How does this affect freedom of movement of workers? Could we not have freedom of movement with slightly different laws in different countries? Does every little thing relating to the labour market need to be regulated centrally? It's just one of those things that always goes in one direction. Central regulation is just piled on.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
      This assures that workers from poorer countries are not put in sweatshop positions in the west. Just basic human dignity.
      - mediascreen 6y ago
        Centralised "right to disconnect" regulation is what will protect workers from sweatshops? I'm not saying there should be no labour regulations in EU, just that there is a lot of detailed regulation that is more appropriate to do on a national level where it can take local culture and priorities into account. And the fundamental EU principle of non discrimination based on nationality should ensure that for example a Rumanian worker in France has the same "right to disconnect" as a French worker. I can't see why Swedes can't decide that they don't mind work emails during the weekend while Germans decide they want to have email free vacations.
phkahler 6y ago
I make it a personal policy not to connect to work email, VPN, or other stuff from home. Just dont set it up. I also dont bring a laptop home. Don't enable yourself. And if you must, use their laptop or phone and simply turn it off at the end of work day. Have solid boundaries on this, if your boss complains talk to HR or get a new job. This is not unreasonable and they know it.
- dschep 6y ago
  Why are you still going into an office during a pandemic? That's far more unreasonable.
rv-de 6y ago
Don't Germans already have the right to disconnect? You work 8 hours and then you switch off the company phone. Done.
allendoerfer 6y ago
Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions. It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home. What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working from home, which is more easily attainable than the already existing deductibles for your home office. Both will exist alongside each other. Then we have deductibles for commuting to work, which of course is counter-productive to deductibles against climate-change and makes no sense combined with the deductibles for staying at home. Why deduct both possible options, if you could just lower the tax-rate? The existence of these rules, does not make the system fairer, it just makes it more and more complicated. You will never be able to complete it. A simpler system would benefit more people. If you earn less, it's likely you won't be able to apply for all these things anyway or properly fill out your tax statements. So I think we desperately need a shift here: Abolish all of these rules, at least the ones, which are actively harmful. If you really want people to keep more of their money, lower the tax-rate! I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers. At some point they are just getting in your way and are not protecting you, but actively hindering your progress. So I would propose, that both parties get more freedom to design their contracts, as soon as the employee has net earnings of say the top 10% or top 5%.
- WanderPanda 6y ago
  I generally agree with you but I don‘t like the > I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers. It should be for all freelancers or for none. Otherwise a situation like with the „accredited investor“ is created which is harming poorer but responsible people from taking opportunities.
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    What I am proposing is: Keep everything for employees/freelancers < top 5%. If you earn more, you are obviously not being exploited, so there is no danger of false self-employment you have to be protected from.
SmokeyHamster 6y ago
Rights should be restrictions on government. Not mandates on personal and private business behavior. I'm not even sure what is driving this. The EU already has a very lax work ethic. Is there really a problem in Europe with people having to be connected when not at work? What about the jobs that require a person be on-call?
- chrisdone 6y ago
  That may be a cultural difference. You may see the EU as having a "very lax work ethic", but in my experience working in the EU, they see America (and Britain) as having an unhealthy work obsession. (Work to live vs live to work, perhaps.)
- campl3r 6y ago
  Yes, it's completely nuts that government regulates how I can deliver my work to my employer. Such rules serve only the government.
daxfohl 6y ago
Hopefully this can reduce the number of globally distributed teams. I mean, I love the global teams I'm working with but the need for after hours meetings is not worth it. I'm not really a big pro nationalism person, but at least a preference to being in the same time zone makes sense.
- fastball 6y ago
  Yes, I too love it when legislation discourages people from working with others around the world. We will never achieve world peace if we let people from different timezones collaborate.
  - daxfohl 6y ago
    We can ease immigration policies. I don't see forcing your workforce into 24/7 mode as the correct approach to world peace.
    - fastball 6y ago
      "other countries" is exactly the problem. In an increasingly digital world, if you can't get flexibility workers from the EU, companies will just get them from somewhere else.
SuddsMcDuff 6y ago
Heaven forbid you should have to compete with someone who's prepared to work harder than you!
amelius 6y ago
Nice, but how are they going to compete against the Chinese?
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The US has the same situation in between its own states, and why a single state can't go too far in providing benefits for its people lest it need to raise taxes too much that it causes businesses to decamp.
nashashmi 6y ago
Regulations like these are not necessary if we were only respecting human beings. About 15 years ago in civil engineering there was great hesitance asking workers to work on weekends or stay late. And there was much appreciation of you did. Now I feel that is fading as we transition to more "manage the computer" culture. Today, you lose respect if you don't engage periodically during off hours. Just respect the human being for sakes. I remember a time when companies would have call centers across the US in different time zones to offer 24 hour service. What happened to that?
- deleted 6y ago
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mrozbarry 6y ago
Here are some simple rules to keep working at home sane: 1. Work in a place that you don't normally use to relax when you would get home from work. Maybe a spare bedroom, maybe the kitchen with a stool. 2. Start work on time, and keep your schedule as non-pandemic-y as possible. Don't sleep in until a minute before work, but get up and pretend to do your commute. Make sure you make your coffee early, too. 3. When your done work on the clock, STOP ANSWERING EMAILS/SLACK/WHATEVER IS WORK RELATED. Now you're home for real. I've worked on and off remote in software, and has saved my sanity every single time. The biggest thing is people are afraid to say no, but in reality, if your boss asks you to do work after you're done your day, either ask for overtime or don't even answer it. It's not your responsibility to work when you're off the clock. If your work would force you to work after-hours even before the pandemic, then there are a few problems: the bosses don't understand the work you do, they don't respect your time, and/or you enable them by working beyond your hours.
carabiner 6y ago
This will hinder startups in the EU. Not saying there's a right or wrong way of life; choose to take it easy or hustle all the time, it's up to you. But this is certainly inhospitable for large swaths of companies trying to innovate.
deleted 6y ago
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beepboopbeep 6y ago
What a stark contrast to America. A country of "Personal freedom" that utterly entraps you to work and shames you as a socialist for asking for support from your government. Ironically, the cut throat work environment that has trained me to always keep an eye out for a better deal is drawing me to immigrating away from this country to the EU. (This is a throw away comment to vent my personal frustrations. I'm quite afraid of the terrible responses this will draw from my fellow Americans so pardon me if I skip out form here.)
meddlepal 6y ago
Every time the EU does something like this it makes it even more attractive to not run a business there.
inv13 6y ago
In Hungary we have the obligation of a 10minutes break by law. Since I've started to take 5minutes of break every hour, whatever I was doing, but really. I was in full blast "code" mode, in the flow, or whatever you want to call it, I just paused. No matter what. Even if you enjoying what you do. Just stop! In the middle of a "coding block", or a smaller feature I was implementing, I just paused. Than just really tried not to think about anything at all, for those 5minutes. This mind exercise really helped me with my daily problem solving ability. I feel like the longer I am doing this, the better it gets over time. Its amazing.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
I don't really need that. My work is my hobby and even before Corona things were intermixed completely. If someone pings me at 11pm from the US with a major issue and I have nothing better to do, Call of Duty can wait till tomorrow :P I like helping people and it helps relax my mind knowing that in the morning there hasn't been a major escalation building up over the last 8 hours. And they know I'm in Europe so they won't bother me if it's not urgent. On the other side, if I need to go to the bank or doctor during the day I'll just schedule a meeting. No need to book time off. I love this flexibility. My boss is totally OK with this (and judging by his Yammer/Email activity, he does the exact same). My role is global so I always have colleagues working somewhere around the globe. Of course it's not that easy for everyone. Some people have a life, kids etc. But it should remain a choice, that's my point. I happen to like a 24-hour society. That also happens. I heard that in some countries like France and Germany some companies force email to stop working during the weekend. I wouldn't want this. Especially with Covid right now I have very little to go outside for, so the weekends are super boring.
- bluntfang 6y ago
  Totally agree that it should be a choice. Companies should choose to spend more for 24/7 on call by hiring more people. You, in turn, can choose to work for another company with flex hours while keeping your current position. Everybody wins.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    But I really really don't want to be "on call". It's a terrible experience and it comes on top of normal work hours usually because the company also knows you're not doing anything. So basically you have to work but are not doing anything but can't do whatever you feel like either. It's horrible.
- minimuffins 6y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who read Hacker News feel this way about their own jobs. But surely you can see this is necessarily a minority of the population. Necessarily, most people who are part or the world economy will not experience labor this way. It's a strange line of reasoning! Every time there's talk of reigning in employer surveillance, reducing working hours or generally speaking any measure that seeks to leverage up workers' power against their employers, there's a comfy tech worker ready to comment about how, well, I'm actually an exception, I actually like my job, etc... And good for you, truly, if that's you! It feels wonderful to have employment that you really enjoy and look forward to. Keep working on the weekend if you really want to (a real danger of burnout though). But we are the exception here, and it makes no sense to govern based only on exceptions.
baby_wipe 6y ago
This is terrible. I would not want a third party to dictate the the hours I work for my employer. There are situations where I'd like to guarantee to my employer that I'll do my best to be available 24/7. This regulation would restrict my ability to negotiate. Shame on the EU.
- s3krit 6y ago
  Don't worry mate, you can break the law to earn your boss another porsche if you want
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Covid has been interesting in morphing work with home. I have memories now of sending emails, but sometimes can’t tell if it was a dream or an actual email I sent. (Usually the dreams and memories of emails are about figures drawn/images etc.)
voldacar 6y ago
The pace at which the EU discovers new rights is truly impressive
eikenberry 6y ago
Do people in tech carreers experience this type of work pressure? I'm 25 years in and the worst abuse I've seen of this sort is uncompensated pager duty. I've never been pressured to check email, chat or whatever off duty. I've read of game devs having lots of crunch time which also falls under this category, but that's about all I've heard of. I'd guess we don't get it as much as we are generally high-value, highly mobile employees so it wouldn't pay to squeeze to hard. Or have I just had (mostly) good employers?

d33 6y ago

> To date, workers in Germany can only write off work costs at home if they can prove they have one room in their household dedicated solely to work. How does one prove they don't use the room for anything else? Webcam recording throughout the month? Also, this kind of deduction favors the rich as the poor can't afford having one room just for that.

chadlavi 6y ago
I would guess it's more a matter of room count. If you have a room that isn't a bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, or living room, you could claim it. You can't claim your apartment's living room though. It absolutely 100% favors the rich. As do most tax incentives.
CallMeMarc 6y ago
This policy is so outdated, you literally aren't allowed to have more than ~10% personal belongings (like family pictures) in the room. Also you're afaik not allowed to have a bed/couch inside which makes a guest room/home office setup impossible.
logifail 6y ago
> this kind of deduction favors the rich ...and/or favours the educated: if you have to go to the bother of knowing about this allowance _and filing a tax return_ to claim. In Germany many (most?) employees pay their income taxes automagically via payroll deductions and so aren't required to submit an annual return.
lotu 6y ago
More suburban than rich. I seen million dollar NYC apartments that where it doesn't make sense to have separate room for work and the work "room" is more of wide hallway combined with the kid's beds. A more fair options would be to still allow the room option for simplicity but also allow you to deduct things by the square foot so even if your office is just a corner it could count, though that is really mushy and people don't like mushy tax laws.
wallwart 6y ago
In theory one can say they use 25% of their bedroom or living room for work, and hope that the tax man is lenient enough to accept that. But then you also need to submit the floor plan or square footage measurements in order to get something deducted from your rent/utilities. And probably pay someone to do all this for you due to the huge number of caveats. German tax law truly is something else. Completely favors the middle class that can afford to keep one room for 'work'. One wonders if starving artists can get some tax returns for their attic shoebox ateliers.
ryneandal 6y ago
Tax deductions in the US were very similar for at-home work. It's absurd because I'm working in that room for between 6-12 hours during the work week (sometimes on weekends when needed), but also used it for a "den" during nights/weekends when I wanted to watch a movie/play a video game as well. This is incredibly common for home offices.
inv13 6y ago
Can't wait for a lawman to randomly knock on my door and check in on my home office. :)

mabbo 6y ago

Luxembourg has some laws like this already, or so I've been told. I worked for a little while on a project with a team based out of the Luxembourg office (Amazon). They mentioned casually that it's illegal for them to be paged from like 10pm to 6am. Not that the company policy forbids it, that the LAW forbids it and the company would be in serious trouble. If the company needs an overnight on-call operator, they have to hire one (or, in Amazon's case, just have a team in Seattle, 9 hours offset, handle night on-call).

MetalGuru 6y ago
Same with Ireland, I believe.

0xfaded 6y ago

In other news, EU pushes to build a giant bikeshed.

deleted 6y ago
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Proven 6y ago

On the one hand you could say those EU guys are all morons. And many indeed are. But on the other, if we were to think about what this means, it's socialism - BNI, aka the right to work from home, be paid the same as real workers, and at the same time not even be reachable. So it's a handful of globalist manipulators leading a pack of useful idiots.

CommanderData 6y ago

Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often see people working through while they aren't fully capable mentally but are too afraid to say so. We need measures like this ASAP.

MereInterest 6y ago
Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Christmas plans with family or (b) go to the office anyways. The two pools must be kept separate as a public health measure. To do anything else gives a massive incentive to be a vector for illness.
- ljm 6y ago
  I presume that is the US, in which case the US has a hell of a lot of catching up to do in terms of workers rights, and work ethic in general. Not to say we are perfect in the EU (and the UK, how I wish I didn't have to specify that separately now :(), but it's leaps and bounds ahead.
- matsemann 6y ago
  Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punished for being sick.

raister 6y ago

> The new legislation, which is expected to be passed by Germany's Bundestag parliament, would allow workers to write off €5 ($6) per day to offset extra heating and electricity costs. That's not feasible or scalable. As it is a balance, they will give you this but will take out somewhere else (less yearly increase and so on). It's almost a disservice...

yread 6y ago
We have travel compensation 0.19eur/km but got a question from HR how many days were we actually at the office this year since march. 0 for me. So there would be a lot of budget for covering heating, electricity and the wear and tear on my PJs and slippers
lagadu 6y ago
Yearly increase in what? Salaries? This would be something that gets written off from the taxes that your employer pays directly to the state for you. Plus if my getting money for the amount of kilometers I drive between my home and the workplace is scalable and working fine, why wouldn't this be?
gattilorenz 6y ago
> As it is a balance, they will give you this but will take out somewhere else (less yearly increase and so on). It's taken off your taxes, not payed directly by your employer
brainwad 6y ago
No, it's totally feasible. In 2019, businesses had expenses related to keeping offices habitable, that reduced their taxable income. Those offices are now closed, so they will have higher taxable incomes than they otherwise would. This will offset the lowered taxable incomes of from-home workers.
lol768 6y ago
It's been this way in the UK for a long time, though it's set at £1.20 no-questions-asked via the basic PAYE portal and any amount you want to claim over the £6/week threshold on the self-assessment if you can evidence it (with receipts) and prove it was necessary for the remote work.

dahfizz 6y ago

> The right to disconnect refers to a worker’s right to be able to disengage from work and refrain from engaging in work-related electronic communications, such as emails or other messages, during non-work hours.[1] What does that even mean? Is the EU also going to come out with the "Right to breathe" and the "Right to go to the bathroom when you need to"? I'm really frustrated with how the term "right" has been watered down. Rights used to be innate freedoms of the utmost importance, something worth dying for. Now it's just shorthand for some benefit the government provides, or something that the government allows you to do (often with lots of stipulations). Rights are no longer something innate to all humans, they are something that the government gives to you when it wants. [1]https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/industrial-relations-dictionary/right-to-disconnect https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/indust...

troughway 6y ago
>What does that even mean? Is the EU also going to come out with the "Right to breathe" and the "Right to go to the bathroom when you need to"? Have you seen amazon's warehouse work conditions?
- 0xfaded 6y ago
  Every regulation like this is a band-aid, and more band-aids will just make the EU even more quintessentially the EU. If the governance focused on restoring negotiating power to workers, you wouldn't need to write to your MP to go to the toilet.
  - yladiz 6y ago
    Are you saying I should have to negotiate the number of toilet breaks I get?
  - chmod775 6y ago
    >If the governance focused on restoring negotiating power to workers The right for workers to form a union is also a worker's right worth protecting. But this is not a workable solution for every single employment relationship.

hawktheslayer 6y ago

I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.

rapsey 6y ago
But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?
  - rapsey 6y ago
    If the kid is too young to understand the issue why not? Someone clue me in why that is so bad.
    - ryneandal 6y ago
      It isn't. Work/home separation is important when you have children. My kids know when my door is shut, it means I'm "not home." I've primarily worked at home for six years now, and it's been an incredibly effective method for providing that needed separation. When the door is open, or if I come out of my office, they know it's a free-for-all for my attention, and I'll often walk out to play with them from time to time to clear my head and/or relieve some work-related stress.
- alias_neo 6y ago
  Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not created to be work places, and employers need to accept that as another commenter eloquently put it; we're not working from home, we're at home during a crises, trying to work.

fmfam 6y ago

I've been working from home for 15 years and such articles make me laughing. Media simply try to fill the vacuum they are in and their efforts are simply ridiculous.

slykar 6y ago
I kind of feel you, but those people are new to this (employers and employees). They have no idea what they are doing, they are scared and they want someone to resolve this issue for them. Any experienced person just turns off their phone or snoozes notifications. People have flex working hours and some co-workers send me messages at 1 am. Should they go to jail or what? Everything could be solved with a little bit of education.
- fmfam 6y ago
  You know, I could tell a lot about self-organisation, how to arrange things, and how to make your wife and children think you're absent when they see you working in the dinning room. But you're right, people en masse are new to this.

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aminozuur 6y ago

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

bob1029 6y ago
This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge. But, these policies also put tricky restrictions around those who love the challenge of ridiculous overtime sprints (These people do actually exist). Protecting the general case can temper the edge cases. In this situation, I would argue the "edge cases" are not adverse. I think you want those types desperately, because that's where all the frontier advancement usually occurs. I.e. the linux kernel didn't get written over a bunch of carefully-metered 40 hour work weeks with mandatory EU breaks throughout. Works of passion and innovation need to occur organically, and in all cases this involves periods of furious productivity interspersed with total dead zones. I actually caught some flak from a developer because I kept insisting that they have worked plenty this week so far and should consider taking a break. I eventually got a sharp rebuke like - "Why can't I work on this if I really want to?". I was left with no rational response beyond stating arbitrary metrics. This is a reaction that I could see myself having as well if the roles were reversed. Perhaps we should arrive at a system where the EU restrictions are default, and employers can file for exemptions using some reasonable process in which employees participate via explicit opt-in, and the opt-in status in no way predicates acceptance of the applicant by the employer.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  I think this really isn't for cases where workers are happy to work longer days. But for situations where groups like managers are expected to work outside regular working hours constantly. And this also comes to having clear laws that companies can't retaliate(fire) someone if they don't work outside working hours. So if you are a developer and want to do 60 hour week writing code. You could do that under flexible hours. It is just that the employer can't force you to do that or expect you to regularly work outside regular hours. On other hand being "on-call" is something different. It can be compensated and hours worked will be considered overtime with multiplier.

vfc1 6y ago

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most managers know this, and turn a blind eye as it's in their best interest to get employees to work as much as possible.

gtfoutttt 6y ago
>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.
- jusssi 6y ago
  It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.
  - bonestormii_ 6y ago
    The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. And even so, plenty of senior positions suffer from this situation as well. I'm living this hell right now.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      >The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

userbinator 6y ago

Seeing this is surprising, as none of the places I've worked expects me to work outside of normal working hours, in the same way they don't expect me to do personal activities in their working hours.

vorticalbox 6y ago
Same with my work, however I have noticed I tend to work over my hours because I get wrapped up in programming.
Cederfjard 6y ago
So you’ve not even heard of such a thing? May I ask where you are based?

jbverschoor 6y ago

IIRC France already has some measures in place

IshKebab 6y ago
As does the UK. You can write off £6/week saving you a whopping £100 over the year (assuming lower rate tax). Better than nothing at least!
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  I meant that employers get fined if they email you outside working hours. And I heard some companies simply delete email outside working hours.
  - slykar 6y ago
    What is considered "working hours" if you have flex time? This sounds utterly ridiculous. It's not like people have Alexa hooked up to company email screaming and flashing their lights at night when they receive a new company email.

cutitout 6y ago

I'm very happy to see that the German tax break is basically the opposite of what Deutsche Bank Research suggested, namely extra taxes for people who WFH, because they "contribute less public transport and the economy", and should "pay a tax for that privilege". They suggested the employer pay it, but still. https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/homeoffice-deutsche-bank-strategen-schlagen-steuer-auf-heimarbeit-vor/26617406.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/...

k__ 6y ago
Sounds dumb. There are forms of self-employment in germany that pays less taxes explicitly because they types of work don't require as much public infrastructure as other types of work.
slykar 6y ago
Lol. Less transport = less wear on the extra expensive roads. Less pollution, less crowd, less money for oil industry. If anything, people should be blessed and get tax returns for WFH.
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
I suspect that was a proposition from some out of touch internal bank junior who had no idea how badly that would go down with the general public let alone the whole "bringing the employer into disrepute" aspect.
- cutitout 6y ago
  Well, the article speaks of "Deutsche Bank strategists" and "experts", and it is Deutsche Bank Research that made the suggestion. Digging further, the person who made the suggestion is a "Macro Strategist" doing "Macro Research", certainly not just a junior. https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000513736/A_work-from-home_tax.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000051... there are countless articles to be found about this if you just look for anything like "working from home tax deutsche bank", for example: https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-bank-proposal-to-levy-income-tax-on-remote-workers-draws-criticism-in-germany/a-55645805 https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-bank-proposal-to-levy-income-... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5percent-tax-for-remote-workers-post-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5pe...

k__ 6y ago

Sad that hey capping the yearly tax break in Germany by 600€. I think this whole remote work movement could really heal the bigger cities and flush a bit more taxes into the smaller ones.

ryanmarsh 6y ago

Yeah, those Europeans. Such workaholics... We need something like this in the states though.

mediascreen 6y ago

As a European I hate these types of EU initiatives. Why not let member states decide on this themselves? When Sweden voted to join the EU there was a lot of talk about the subsidiary principle[0], but it seems almost completely forgotten now. I guess one could argue that it affects the internal labour market in some way, but so could pretty much any issue. I would love to see more members of the EU parliament vote against proposals like this, but I guess it's hard to be on record as saying no to something you might be in favour of - if raised on another level. [0] "Specifically, it is the principle whereby the EU does not take action (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level." (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html)

isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
Given that one of the fundamentals of the EU is freedom of movement of workers, workers rights fall right into core competences of EU legislation.
- mediascreen 6y ago
  How does this affect freedom of movement of workers? Could we not have freedom of movement with slightly different laws in different countries? Does every little thing relating to the labour market need to be regulated centrally? It's just one of those things that always goes in one direction. Central regulation is just piled on.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
    This assures that workers from poorer countries are not put in sweatshop positions in the west. Just basic human dignity.
    - mediascreen 6y ago
      Centralised "right to disconnect" regulation is what will protect workers from sweatshops? I'm not saying there should be no labour regulations in EU, just that there is a lot of detailed regulation that is more appropriate to do on a national level where it can take local culture and priorities into account. And the fundamental EU principle of non discrimination based on nationality should ensure that for example a Rumanian worker in France has the same "right to disconnect" as a French worker. I can't see why Swedes can't decide that they don't mind work emails during the weekend while Germans decide they want to have email free vacations.

phkahler 6y ago

I make it a personal policy not to connect to work email, VPN, or other stuff from home. Just dont set it up. I also dont bring a laptop home. Don't enable yourself. And if you must, use their laptop or phone and simply turn it off at the end of work day. Have solid boundaries on this, if your boss complains talk to HR or get a new job. This is not unreasonable and they know it.

dschep 6y ago
Why are you still going into an office during a pandemic? That's far more unreasonable.

rv-de 6y ago

Don't Germans already have the right to disconnect? You work 8 hours and then you switch off the company phone. Done.

allendoerfer 6y ago

Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions. It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home. What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working from home, which is more easily attainable than the already existing deductibles for your home office. Both will exist alongside each other. Then we have deductibles for commuting to work, which of course is counter-productive to deductibles against climate-change and makes no sense combined with the deductibles for staying at home. Why deduct both possible options, if you could just lower the tax-rate? The existence of these rules, does not make the system fairer, it just makes it more and more complicated. You will never be able to complete it. A simpler system would benefit more people. If you earn less, it's likely you won't be able to apply for all these things anyway or properly fill out your tax statements. So I think we desperately need a shift here: Abolish all of these rules, at least the ones, which are actively harmful. If you really want people to keep more of their money, lower the tax-rate! I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers. At some point they are just getting in your way and are not protecting you, but actively hindering your progress. So I would propose, that both parties get more freedom to design their contracts, as soon as the employee has net earnings of say the top 10% or top 5%.

WanderPanda 6y ago
I generally agree with you but I don‘t like the > I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers. It should be for all freelancers or for none. Otherwise a situation like with the „accredited investor“ is created which is harming poorer but responsible people from taking opportunities.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  What I am proposing is: Keep everything for employees/freelancers < top 5%. If you earn more, you are obviously not being exploited, so there is no danger of false self-employment you have to be protected from.

SmokeyHamster 6y ago

Rights should be restrictions on government. Not mandates on personal and private business behavior. I'm not even sure what is driving this. The EU already has a very lax work ethic. Is there really a problem in Europe with people having to be connected when not at work? What about the jobs that require a person be on-call?

chrisdone 6y ago
That may be a cultural difference. You may see the EU as having a "very lax work ethic", but in my experience working in the EU, they see America (and Britain) as having an unhealthy work obsession. (Work to live vs live to work, perhaps.)
campl3r 6y ago
Yes, it's completely nuts that government regulates how I can deliver my work to my employer. Such rules serve only the government.

daxfohl 6y ago

Hopefully this can reduce the number of globally distributed teams. I mean, I love the global teams I'm working with but the need for after hours meetings is not worth it. I'm not really a big pro nationalism person, but at least a preference to being in the same time zone makes sense.

fastball 6y ago
Yes, I too love it when legislation discourages people from working with others around the world. We will never achieve world peace if we let people from different timezones collaborate.
- daxfohl 6y ago
  We can ease immigration policies. I don't see forcing your workforce into 24/7 mode as the correct approach to world peace.
  - fastball 6y ago
    "other countries" is exactly the problem. In an increasingly digital world, if you can't get flexibility workers from the EU, companies will just get them from somewhere else.

SuddsMcDuff 6y ago

Heaven forbid you should have to compete with someone who's prepared to work harder than you!

amelius 6y ago

Nice, but how are they going to compete against the Chinese?

lotsofpulp 6y ago
The US has the same situation in between its own states, and why a single state can't go too far in providing benefits for its people lest it need to raise taxes too much that it causes businesses to decamp.

nashashmi 6y ago

Regulations like these are not necessary if we were only respecting human beings. About 15 years ago in civil engineering there was great hesitance asking workers to work on weekends or stay late. And there was much appreciation of you did. Now I feel that is fading as we transition to more "manage the computer" culture. Today, you lose respect if you don't engage periodically during off hours. Just respect the human being for sakes. I remember a time when companies would have call centers across the US in different time zones to offer 24 hour service. What happened to that?

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mrozbarry 6y ago

Here are some simple rules to keep working at home sane: 1. Work in a place that you don't normally use to relax when you would get home from work. Maybe a spare bedroom, maybe the kitchen with a stool. 2. Start work on time, and keep your schedule as non-pandemic-y as possible. Don't sleep in until a minute before work, but get up and pretend to do your commute. Make sure you make your coffee early, too. 3. When your done work on the clock, STOP ANSWERING EMAILS/SLACK/WHATEVER IS WORK RELATED. Now you're home for real. I've worked on and off remote in software, and has saved my sanity every single time. The biggest thing is people are afraid to say no, but in reality, if your boss asks you to do work after you're done your day, either ask for overtime or don't even answer it. It's not your responsibility to work when you're off the clock. If your work would force you to work after-hours even before the pandemic, then there are a few problems: the bosses don't understand the work you do, they don't respect your time, and/or you enable them by working beyond your hours.

carabiner 6y ago

This will hinder startups in the EU. Not saying there's a right or wrong way of life; choose to take it easy or hustle all the time, it's up to you. But this is certainly inhospitable for large swaths of companies trying to innovate.

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beepboopbeep 6y ago

What a stark contrast to America. A country of "Personal freedom" that utterly entraps you to work and shames you as a socialist for asking for support from your government. Ironically, the cut throat work environment that has trained me to always keep an eye out for a better deal is drawing me to immigrating away from this country to the EU. (This is a throw away comment to vent my personal frustrations. I'm quite afraid of the terrible responses this will draw from my fellow Americans so pardon me if I skip out form here.)

meddlepal 6y ago

Every time the EU does something like this it makes it even more attractive to not run a business there.

inv13 6y ago

In Hungary we have the obligation of a 10minutes break by law. Since I've started to take 5minutes of break every hour, whatever I was doing, but really. I was in full blast "code" mode, in the flow, or whatever you want to call it, I just paused. No matter what. Even if you enjoying what you do. Just stop! In the middle of a "coding block", or a smaller feature I was implementing, I just paused. Than just really tried not to think about anything at all, for those 5minutes. This mind exercise really helped me with my daily problem solving ability. I feel like the longer I am doing this, the better it gets over time. Its amazing.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

I don't really need that. My work is my hobby and even before Corona things were intermixed completely. If someone pings me at 11pm from the US with a major issue and I have nothing better to do, Call of Duty can wait till tomorrow :P I like helping people and it helps relax my mind knowing that in the morning there hasn't been a major escalation building up over the last 8 hours. And they know I'm in Europe so they won't bother me if it's not urgent. On the other side, if I need to go to the bank or doctor during the day I'll just schedule a meeting. No need to book time off. I love this flexibility. My boss is totally OK with this (and judging by his Yammer/Email activity, he does the exact same). My role is global so I always have colleagues working somewhere around the globe. Of course it's not that easy for everyone. Some people have a life, kids etc. But it should remain a choice, that's my point. I happen to like a 24-hour society. That also happens. I heard that in some countries like France and Germany some companies force email to stop working during the weekend. I wouldn't want this. Especially with Covid right now I have very little to go outside for, so the weekends are super boring.

bluntfang 6y ago
Totally agree that it should be a choice. Companies should choose to spend more for 24/7 on call by hiring more people. You, in turn, can choose to work for another company with flex hours while keeping your current position. Everybody wins.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  But I really really don't want to be "on call". It's a terrible experience and it comes on top of normal work hours usually because the company also knows you're not doing anything. So basically you have to work but are not doing anything but can't do whatever you feel like either. It's horrible.
minimuffins 6y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who read Hacker News feel this way about their own jobs. But surely you can see this is necessarily a minority of the population. Necessarily, most people who are part or the world economy will not experience labor this way. It's a strange line of reasoning! Every time there's talk of reigning in employer surveillance, reducing working hours or generally speaking any measure that seeks to leverage up workers' power against their employers, there's a comfy tech worker ready to comment about how, well, I'm actually an exception, I actually like my job, etc... And good for you, truly, if that's you! It feels wonderful to have employment that you really enjoy and look forward to. Keep working on the weekend if you really want to (a real danger of burnout though). But we are the exception here, and it makes no sense to govern based only on exceptions.

baby_wipe 6y ago

This is terrible. I would not want a third party to dictate the the hours I work for my employer. There are situations where I'd like to guarantee to my employer that I'll do my best to be available 24/7. This regulation would restrict my ability to negotiate. Shame on the EU.

s3krit 6y ago
Don't worry mate, you can break the law to earn your boss another porsche if you want

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Covid has been interesting in morphing work with home. I have memories now of sending emails, but sometimes can’t tell if it was a dream or an actual email I sent. (Usually the dreams and memories of emails are about figures drawn/images etc.)

voldacar 6y ago

The pace at which the EU discovers new rights is truly impressive

eikenberry 6y ago

Do people in tech carreers experience this type of work pressure? I'm 25 years in and the worst abuse I've seen of this sort is uncompensated pager duty. I've never been pressured to check email, chat or whatever off duty. I've read of game devs having lots of crunch time which also falls under this category, but that's about all I've heard of. I'd guess we don't get it as much as we are generally high-value, highly mobile employees so it wouldn't pay to squeeze to hard. Or have I just had (mostly) good employers?