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I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps
- yk42bb 6y agoI have never read a first-hand account, that is why I am posting this.
- sergiotapia 6y agoThank you for posting this. More people need to see this is happening in a so-called first world country.
- hawkoy 6y ago[Removed]
- DevKoala 6y agoWhat does that have to do with the suffering of Uighur people?
- akiselev 6y agoThe last time the human race stopped an industrial scale genocide, half the world had to unite under their own selfish reasons. That's no longer possible thanks to nuclear weapons, so our battle will have to be fought first with introspection and reflection. We can't do anything decisive to help the Uighurs without ripping apart Chinese sovereignty and causing even more collateral damage, so the best we can do is once again find our principles. We will need them to unite us and guide us through the economic pain and chaos that a proper solution like embargoing China would require.
- shripadk 6y ago> We can't do anything decisive to help the Uighurs without ripping apart Chinese sovereignty and causing even more collateral damage, so the best we can do is once again find our principles Yes we can. Boycott CCP controlled businesses, their manufactured goods and services. Ensure strict sanctions are levied on CCP members. Ban travel of CCP members to and from countries that respect the rule of Law. But nope. We would rather, like cowards, keep our mouth shut and do nothing while this genocide continuous unabated.
- akiselev 6y agoAn embargo is a national, legally mandated boycott that carries penalties up to and including prison time. If your personal boycotts help make you feel better about the ongoing genocide, that's great! I, for one, would prefer a solution that works.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago(daft post, deleted)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- stale2002 6y agoThe US already has tariffs on china, and we can legally increase them. Tariffs can cause a lot of damage.
- kaitai 6y agoAnd for all the folks who are saying "well that doesn't work" do look at for instance international pressure on South Africa near the end of apartheid. Internal and external pressure in concert can have effect.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago> We can't do anything decisive to help the Uighurs without ripping apart Chinese sovereignty Breaking up a regime capable of doing monstrous things has been done before q.v. europe 1945 .
- yeetman21 6y ago>That's no longer possible thanks to nuclear weapons its in the post you replied to, c'mon man
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ornitorrincos 6y agoYou missed the parents points, where he argues that it took half of the world in a military alliance and years of wars to accomplish the goals. Doing that against a nuclear state is impossible, as such military action is out of the picture. That leaves only economic action.
- rocho 6y agoBut can that be effective, really? Many times economic sanctions are a joke (see the ones dished out by the UN). If they become too hard, a nuclear state can threaten nuclear action just the same. What then?
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoThen next they come for someone else, then eventually they come for you. There's your answer, I guess in your world you lose either way, right?
- Kbelicius 6y agoOnly when those monstrous things spread outside of the borders. Even then it was allowed to spread sometime outside its borders before others reacted.
- shripadk 6y agoThat photo in the article is from 2014. Started during the Obama administration. Already been debunked: https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-democratic-national-convention-ap-fact-check-immigration-politics-2663c84832a13cdd7a8233becfc7a5f3 https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-democratic-national...
- yorwba 6y agohttps://bitterwinter.org/tag/muslim-uyghurs/ https://bitterwinter.org/tag/muslim-uyghurs/ has a bunch more articles focusing on the experience of single individuals, mixed in with more broad reporting.
- yellow_lead 6y agoThere is a lot more primary evidence and a well maintained victim database at https://www.shahit.biz/eng/#evidence https://www.shahit.biz/eng/#evidence
- coolgod 6y agoI haven't got my daily check from the CIA, that is why I am posting this.
- justicezyx 6y agoWe are going to see more of this, once the millions being detained get out or were killed entirely. More leaks will come. Be patient, CCP's crimes are coming out.
- agent00f 6y agoUh, there are many accounts from people who were at various camps if you just search, because the typical stay is much shorter than let on in propaganda. In fact, pretty much all accounts are from people who were released. These are much closer in nature to the US border detention camps, with "prisoners" entering and leaving regularly.
- data_ders 6y agoyou know a nerve has been struck when the 3 Kuai Army [1] brigades into HN to "share the truth" about "re-education camps" [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
- powerapple 6y agoThanks for the effort of registering an account just to post this.
- sergiotapia 6y agoThe horrors of communism never fail to bring out the lowest of the low in humanity.
- vaidhy 6y agoIt isn’t anything specific to communism. The horrors human inflict upon each other is pretty sad and telling.
- brightball 6y agoUltimately, this is specific of any form of government with too much power over its people. That’s a requirement of communism which is why this is often attributed to communism as an expected outcome. It’s entirely possible in any form of government that disarms and controls its people, rather than empowers them.
- AzzieElbab 6y agoThat is not true. Communism in its core is incompatible with any other system of beliefs. It must replace religions and customs in order to succeed, it must rewrite history in order to seem valuable.
- literallycancer 6y agoGetting rid of religion is one of the few things commies got right.
- fakedang 6y agoStrong disagree. Religion is opium for the masses. What would replace the time wasted in religious activities? Facebook? We all know where that got us.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
- yeetman21 6y agoIn the article he mentions “Their goal is just to exterminate all Uighurs in one way or another”, if that is the case, why not just shoot them all? Why did they let him out?
- iaw 6y ago> exterminate all Uighurs in one way or another In this context it seems to mean that it's politically easier to "re-educate" the Uighar away than straight out kill the Uighars. If some die during the process China doesn't care but it can't be accused of genocide which would raise more concern globally.
- yeetman21 6y agoThey are already being accused of genocide, and it isnt doing much to them
- yorwba 6y agoObviously, that statement is more about his feelings than about the Chinese government's motivation, since he has no special insight into the latter.
- gambiting 6y agoIt would have been far easier for Nazis to shoot all "lesser" races too, yet they used to send people to concentration camps first. And yes, people used to be released from those from time to time too. The answer with Nazis was that after arrival at a concentration camp the weak were sent to immediate excution, the rest were kept for labour, and everyone was stripped off their possessions first - which was very convenient because people were told they would be relocated, so they brought valuables with them. That centralized the wealth gathering, execution and labour into a single package, which made a lot more sense than trying to do it on the spot everywhere they went. But specifically in the case of Uighurs - you can eliminate a culture by erasing its identity, without killing the people. That seems to be what China is doing - they are not straight up killing them, just putting them in camps for "reeducation" so they behave and think like model Chinese citizens, with harsh punishments for following their original culture. That way, "Uighurs" as a group will be wiped out without necessarily killing them all.
- clubdorothe 6y agoI don't know what to say or describe my feelings after reading that article -- How can we help ?
- naderkhalil 6y agoI wonder if calling our representatives can help
- missedthecue 6y agoWhat can they do?
- smitty1e 6y agoRepresentatives help compile the political will to apply economic pressure. There are no magic wands here.
- runarberg 6y agoThe international community could do a lot more to stop this horror. International leaders could condemn this for a start. They could put sanctions on the chinese ruling class, or Chinese businesses, as well as exclude Chinese participation in international events (such as the Olympics). Your local representative could raise awareness to such measures to the ruling class in your country, and vote in favor for them in your national assembly. At the very least your local representative could call to shame any other member of the ruling class that is not publicly and vocally condemning this horror.
- missedthecue 6y agoHave sanctions ever worked? They haven't worked on Cuba. They haven't worked on Venezuela. They haven't worked on Russia. They haven't worked on North Korea. They haven't worked anywhere I can think of.
- 6y ago
- iongoatb 6y agoThis comment was censored because it was critical of communism.
- iaw 6y ago> cultural purging and crimes against humanity These existed long before the concept of communism, we can debate communisms merits (of which it has some but not many) or we can actually discuss the crimes against humanity being perpetrated by a dual capitalist/communist society regardless of their political theory of choice.
- iongoatb 6y agoThis comment was censored because it was critical of communism.
- iaw 6y agoWe aren't talking about magnitude and frequency. If we were I could point out that communist governments tend to be younger and dealing with more domestic strife as a young government may lead to a higher likelihood of crimes being committed by the government regardless of political economic theory. These phenomenons are not new and arguably were perfected before communism existed. Please don't muddy the waters to make this an attack on a political philosophy when these behaviors are an affront to human life regardless of who perpetrates them.
- Darmody 6y agoshouldn't we criticize nazism? Antisemitism and genocide are not new either.
- throwaway894345 6y agoI agree with your point. I don't imagine the parent would dispute a link between the Nazis' genocides and a fascist ideology (or at least I hope he wouldn't), but for some reason trying to understand this atrocity through the lens of political ideology is "muddying the waters".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bigpumpkin 6y agoI'm curious why this man was denied a US visa in 2018 despite an invitation from Congress to speak about his experience. [1] [1]https://apnews.com/article/dc4062529014451e914ab361b3987afd https://apnews.com/article/dc4062529014451e914ab361b3987afd
- iaw 6y agoMy guess would be politics. Congress in the US is democratically controlled while the Senate and Presidency are republican controlled. The current administration is fairly anti-Muslim and has ignored the Uighar issues entirely, the current administration likely told the State Department not to issue the visa.
- emteycz 6y agoWhat, visas are determined by politicians? Wow. That's like no rule of law at all!
- iaw 6y agoEmissaries and consulates are typically ran by career government employees in the US but their operation is overseen by the Secretary of State (a presidential cabinet member) and the State Department. So the presidential appointee has a lot of power over what does and does not happen at consulates/emissaries. It's not optimal but it's what we have.
- coldtea 6y ago
- abbracadabbra 6y agoPrimary sources have been lacking in coverage of this story; is the Communist party that powerful in controlling first hand accounts?
- iaw 6y agoGiven that his entire family in China has effectively been erased as far as he knows, I think the CCP has a pretty strong level of control in the vast majority of cases. He currently lives in Netherlands while his wife and child are in Turkey.
- yorwba 6y agoOf course there are primary sources, it's just that they're usually in Mandarin or Uyghur or some other non-English language of the region, and they're not nicely reduced down to a few key statements like a news article.
- 5m17h 6y agoPaul Graham should keep these political topics off the table and ban this foreign powers
- thatguy0900 6y agoWhat foreign powers are posting bad things about China? And even if they are, does it matter if it's true? I agree hn is a odd place for this story, though.
- CyberDildonics 6y agoThat's very interesting, procedural looking name with 6 comments over 6 months, all on topics criticizing china.
- nendroid 6y agoThis is horrible. No doubt this is an allergic immune response to terrorism. The actions here on a different level than what's going on in Hong Kong, possibly because of this: "In July 2009, riots broke out in Xinjiang in response to a violent dispute between Uyghur and Han Chinese workers in a factory and result in over 100 deaths. Following the riots, Uyghur radicals killed dozens of Chinese citizens in coordinated attacks from 2009 to 2016. These included the August 2009 syringe attacks, the 2011 bomb-and-knife attack in Hotan, the March 2014 knife attack in the Kunming railway station, the April 2014 bomb-and-knife attack in the Ürümqi railway station, and the May 2014 car-and-bomb attack in an Ürümqi street market. Several of the attacks were orchestrated by the Turkistan Islamic Party (formerly the East Turkestan Islamic Movement) which has been designated a terrorist organization by several countries including Russia, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States, in addition to the United Nations." No doubt the efficiency that makes China so effective at arresting the spread of covid also makes atrocities like the concentration camps occur which will no doubt affect many many innocent bystanders. It is questionable whether or not this over-reaction will be effective, but despite this we know that China conducts these atrocities with the goal to end the violence once and for all under any means necessary. The question is, is a successful quelling of all terrorism worth crossing the line? Keep in mind the United States likely killed and harmed much more innocent bystanders with its' own allergic immune response to 9/11. It just didn't happen on our soil. We've crossed the line in the past as well.
- iaw 6y ago> The question is, is a successful quelling of all terrorism worth crossing the line? > Keep in mind the United States likely killed and harmed much more innocent bystanders with its' own allergic immune response to 9/11. It just didn't happen on our soil. We've crossed the line in the past as well. Crossing the line while fighting terrorism was not an acceptable action by the USA but I think it's a false equivalency to compare it to forced internment, torture, and reeducation of an entire population. At least the USA pretended to be discerning about who they went after.
- nendroid 6y ago>Crossing the line while fighting terrorism was not an acceptable action by the USA but I think it's a false equivalency to compare it to forced internment, torture, and reeducation of an entire population. I think it's a fair comparison. The amount of innocent bystanders killed by the the US military will be much more than what happens in concentration camps. The difference is the wording. War sounds not as bad as re-education and concentration camps. This is because you're use to it. Change the word from war to slaughter, because that is what war is.. slaughter. It's not even an exaggeration... if you've ever seen a bomb or a bullet massacre a human being into a bloody mess, slaughter is a very appropriate word. When you change the word you'll realize that war and re-education live on relatively the same level of extremism. Perhaps war is even worse than re-education or concentration camps. The US slaughtered many soldiers and innocent bystanders in Iraq and afghanistan to end terrorism. The Chinese tortured and re-educated many people to end terrorism. Which is worse?
- gentleman11 6y agoThis reminded me of what we used to make fun of North Korea for, except its much much more extreme and it’s not funny at all. Its just monstrous, isn’t it? There should be sanctions
- shureluck 6y agoNorth Koreas stories can be much worse, but typically are not found outside of religious groups like Voice of the Martyrs.
- skeptictw 6y agoIs there actually any proof of this account? This reads like propaganda designed to sucker both the left (torture, islamophobia) and right (communism and lack of religious freedom). Next article will talk about WMDs and blown up buddhist statues (stories which convinced both sides of the media to push for war in iraq and afghanistan).
- pozdnyshev 6y agoIt very much reads like propaganda. >“The Chinese government calls [them] re-education camps. Actually there are no re-education camps - all are concentration camps,” he says. There ARE re-education camps (obviously). It is easy to find footage of these online (though not without ominous non-diagetic music in the background). The detention centers at the borders in the US where migrant children are put in cages without beds, toothbrushes, and discouraged from even speaking with each other sound much more like concentration camps.
- franklampard 6y agoBecause it is from a unheard of UK news outlet, it must been verified!
- mixedbit 6y agoWhy 39 minutes old submission with 148 up-votes is ranked 13th on the HN front page? The first entry at this moment is a 41 minutes old submission with 43 points, the 2nd entry is 59 minutes old with 35 points. Is this because this post is heavily flagged?
- temp_00ahn 6y agocensorship is going on in the comments too
- iaw 6y agoThere are three competing philosophies in this thread: 1) This is because of communism 2) China is being reasonable 3) This is a crime, what can we do? 1 & 2 are diametrically opposed and downvoting each other whereas 3 gets attacked for being moderate. Calling it censorship is fine but do recognize that it's because your opinion is take poorly more often than not within this thread.
- gentleman11 6y agoThere are several low karma posters (3-4 first time posters) in this thread though, so at minimum it’s encouraging people who rarely participate to join in, which probably seems odd
- root_axis 6y agoDownvotes are not censorship. Half a decade of smart-ass comments like yours have robbed the word of any meaning.
- vaccinator 6y agoThere is censorship on HN... not only downvotes and flagging... sometimes admins move entire threads wherever they want too... There is also the opposite of censorship (they boost some content)
- root_axis 6y ago
- temp_00ahn 6y agowhy is it that we can complaint about US and capitalism but speaking about china and communism gets censored in HN?
- forgotmypw17 6y agothink twice before buying made in china, for this man,s torture is added to your karma.
- coldtea 6y agoSo like Guantanamo, the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and close to a century of Kissinger and his ilk, is added to one's karma if they buy US products?
- glial 6y agoThere's a reasonable argument to be made against the parent, but "what about" isn't it.
- coldtea 6y agoI find "whataboutism is not an argument" is a knee-jerk conditioned reaction against putting things in perspective. It's almost a Pavlovian thought-stopping response by now - "sure, we have faults but we know them already, can we now concentrate on treating the enemy as some unique evil again?".
- dragonwriter 6y agoNo, it's “uniqueness isn't the argument, stop beating that strawman”.
- free_rms 6y agoChina is uniquely fixated on here on HN, there's a thread every few days painting them as a unique threat.
- Supermancho 6y agoI would say that's all accurate and correctly characterized. Ofc, it's easy to paint something that's already a finished work.
- hermitcrab 6y agoGenocide is clearly not an acceptable or proportionate response to a few terrorist acts by Muslim separatists. I, for one, do not welcome our new Chinese overlords. The West needs to stop staring at it's collective navels and get it's shit together, so we can push back at abhorrent abuses like this.
- apexkid 6y agoChina should be immediately stripped off its veto rights in United Nations. Such genocide should not be accepted by the world just because someone has money.
- literallycancer 6y agoThat's not how UN works.
- ak39 6y agoCriticizing the Chinese government's actions for their treatment of the Uighurs will invite state-sponsored "cancel culture" - not just from China but also from the western democratic nations that acquiesce to Chinese whims. This is incredible - look at the life of the professional football player Ozil who was effectively forced to leave Arsenal for his comments on this very subject. Criticizing China should NOT be censored. (There's another country that also invites this type of cancel culture trolls whenever someone objects the policies of that country. You can guess.)
- thotsBgone 6y agoCriticizing the Chinese government is racist, don't you know that?
- fakedang 6y agoA.) Ozil hasn't left Arsenal, he's just not played. His contract runs till next year. B.) Ozil is just a shit team player. Never attends practice, instead vacationing on Arsenal's dime. Even Arsene Wenger, one of the greatest coaches, had issues with him. C.) Ozil is also a huge fan of Erdogan, somebody who's currently sending troops to massacre Armenia, while also genociding Turkish Kurds. There is a 5 year old conflict that began ever since he came to power D.) What's the last country? Iran? Russia? India? Because all of those countries and some more engage in trolling activities in online forums (including HN)
- selimthegrim 6y agoOK what about the NBA player whose family were Gülen followers?
- fakedang 6y agoThe NBA is a totally different bunch from the EPL, and has been doing its best to bend over backwards for China. Sure, the EPL bends over for China too, but not as much as the NBA. I think it's because the EPL prefers the Indian fan base a lot more, idk, shooting in the dark here.
- skeptictw 6y agoYo dang, how is it that political commentary which questions capitalism or america is verboten, but anything criticizing Communism or China is allowed?
- dang 6y agoThat's not an accurate statement. Such perceptions are in the eye of the beholder. People with the opposite views to yours see HN in exactly the opposite light. See for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20384662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20384662. What's astonishing is how precisely complaints like yours and theirs mirror each other. The mechanism and the emotions are identical—they're just applying different filters. But the underlying data stream of posts flowing through HN remains the same. Lots of previous explanations about this phenomenon may be found via https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....
- coldtea 6y agoHere's the realpolitik deal, as I understand it. China doesn't really care about terrorism. What they do care for is a separatism movement. Not because they can't afford to give some land to those to make their own country, but because they fear that that country (or the population within China's borders if no country is created) will be used against them from foreign powers as a pressure point against China. Which is probably justified, as such a thing has happened time and again. The West on the other hand, could not care less about the "plight og Uighurs" either. I mean the politicians and policy makers who use the Uighur plighy against China, not because they give a duck, but because it's convenient. They themselves have no qualms with fucking over other countries, or supporting other repressive regimes. As for the people in the West, we have the memory span of a goldfish, and just eat up sob stories presented concerning the "enemy of the day". Cut the prominent stories from the media, and they'd forget Uighurs in a second, like they don't give a duck for other peoples plights. This leaves Uighurs in a hard spot, which is a crying shame, because short of genocide, what China wants to achieve is impossible. The best thing they should do, and the more humane, to don't hurt Uighurs and to get them on their side (to stop any seperatism ideas), is a friendliness war -- shove them with money, support, etc. But there's bad blood and BS decisions already, so can this still happen? The Han Chinese need to overcome their distrust of non-Han for this to be a possibility. I say "the Han Chinese" at large, because the party is hardly the issue here. China would do quite the same thing even if they had a democracy. Those things have happened time and again without communist parties in charge - see the re-education camps for Native Americans, Aboriginals, European camps for regufees like Moria and so on.
- kerng 6y agoWonder what your perspective is around countries which are closer culturally to Uighurs? Like i keep hearing they are from Turkish decent - would Turkey have any interest or stake in this?
- luckylion 6y agoTurkey's interest in Uighurs is far smaller than Turkey's interest in its own economy, and China is spending a lot of money to prop Turkey up - they're buying influence. Needless to say that making an enemy of a security council veto power while you're allied with the remnants of ISIS, annexing parts of neighboring countries etc isn't a wise choice. Erdogan may seem unhinged at times, but he's not, his steps are quite rational from an empire-policy perspective.
- fuoqi 6y agoWhile I think it's a gross over-reaction from the Chinese government, I think I understand the fears which fuel such behavior. CPC has learned a lot from the fall of the Soviet Union and they will do anything in their power to prevent a similar outcome for China. One of the lessons was that cultural differences between citizens can be a very effective tool to destabilize a country. So instead of promoting cultural autonomy as was done in USSR (sometimes to the detriment of Russians, e.g. see Lenin's remarks about "Great Russian Chauvinism"), they aim to completely assimilate Uighurs and other ethnicities living inside Chinese borders. They feel that it can be an existential threat, so "the end justifies the means". This is why such policy got significantly accelerated after clash with "the West" became inevitable. If you want to change someone's behavior, you have to understand it first.
- birdyrooster 6y agoHas this ever been done successfully? It seems like the racial caste system they continue to build will blow back eventually.
- fuoqi 6y agoAll empires did it to varying extents and a lot of people got assimilated in the result. The outcome got cemented by creation of "nation states". Cherishing of cultural minorities is a relatively recent development.
- toxik 6y agoHave you ever Googled “happy white woman”? Try with any other group. It’s pretty sad to see such a blatant... sabotage of positive white ideals.
- free_rms 6y agoThe entire western hemisphere? Particularly latin america. They left spanish control but they were spanish and catholic when they did so.
- em500 6y ago
- apta 6y agoPlease strongly consider boycotting, or at least avoiding Chinese products: https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/
- Mindless2112 6y agoCountry of origin is often not stated on product listings, and it's not clear what it should say for things made partially in multiple countries.
- slang800 6y agoDo some research then. It's not impossible to figure out where things are coming from.
- ericd 6y agoSadly, it’s not realistic to expect people to spend 3x their normal shopping time. We need to make it easier to identify, either through government action, or some commercial solution.
- boruto 6y agoI was trying to buy headphones from a market chain the other day and all the models in 100 eur range were made in china. With some having designed in xxx and made in china.
- Mindless2112 6y agoIt actually is impossible for most people for a lot of products. It would be much better to pass something like the PRIME Act[1]. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/2208/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/220...
- kepler1 6y agoAs long as the majority of the US population doesn't know or doesn't care about the issue, it won't make a whiff of difference. Everyone just keeps buying with their wallets open because it's cheap and available. All the while we distract ourselves with our ridiculous internal politics.
- birdyrooster 6y agoThey creating their own Al Qaeda, come back in ten years and check how they are cooking.
- ivalm 6y agoThey are populating those regions with Han Chinese and are enforcing mass surveillance. I think the endgame is part ethnic cleansing part assimilation and no part Uighur with their historic culture.
- throw_m239339 6y ago> They creating their own Al Qaeda, come back in ten years and check how they are cooking. People often repeat that idiocy, not understanding that the Chinese government is willing to put in prison every single Muslim in China if they started doing terrorist attacks on Chinese soil. The CCP doesn't have to care about the rule of law or human rights in their fights against "separatism" or "terrorism". This is how the CCP crushed the Tibetan rebellion, a people already long forgotten by westerners who now act offended about the treatment of Uighur, like the republic of China was never a bloody dictatorship to begin with.
- birdyrooster 6y agoThey don’t have control over bordering territories and small terror cells. In this argument You are attempting to build China into something they simply aren’t because they lack the capability and jurisdiction. https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/993601/china-uyghur-terrorism/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/993601/china-uyghur-terr...
- fishywang 6y ago>Ӧmir was born to Uighur and Kazakh parents in Xinjiang, or formerly East Turkestan before the Chinese invasion of 1949 This is the first time I've seen the claim that "East Turkestan" (as in the "country") actually existed before 1949. I realize that it could totally be that the history I learnt growing up deliberately omitted that part, and/or the definition of "countries" were more in wonton before the end of WW2. But could someone provide some creditable source to support that claim?
- BeetleB 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_East_Turkestan_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_East_Turkestan_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_East_Turkestan_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_East_Turkestan_Republic Of course, it's Wikipedia, so you'll have to dig through its references.
- free_rms 6y agoSo, 2 very small chunks of xinjiang broke away for a few years during WW2 while big parts of china were occupied by the japanese? Not really tracking with the tone of TFA's claims imo.
- fishywang 6y agoThanks for the links. For the First, even Wikipedia warned that it lacks citations and verification, so I don't think it should be considered as a "creditable source". Also it's only a tiny portion of Xinjiang. For the Second, even if we consider it 100% true, it doesn't really support the original claim from that interview article, in several ways: 1. It's a small portion of Xinjiang, and the claim _implies_ that the whole Xinjiang was "formerly East Turkestan before the Chinese invasion of 1949" 2. The Second ETR was pro-communism, pro-Soviet, pro-CPC, and against the rest of Xinjiang that's under RoC control. In 1949 CPC won the civil war against RoC (KMT), took control of all of Xinjiang. So I don't see in anyway it could be claimed that China invaded ETR in 1949. One thing I don't understand is why do those condemn China's treatment of Uyghurs have to add the (likely dubious) claim of China invaded Xinjiang in 1949. It's not like doing a domestic (cultural) genocide is something "better" than invasion and genocide, so why add some dubious claim to your legitimate claim?
- whatsmyusername 6y agoNot reading the comments but I assume the Chinese astroturfing is a s t r o n o m i c a l.
- tomc1985 6y agoThis post needs to be higher in the list. Everyone that the CCP deputizes as one of their spies needs to have their nose held to this shit.
- monksy 6y agoSomeone's social score went down. / Someone isn't going to be allowed to leave China. (Why was this statement made? This is a country that does not like criticism, and the routinely will try to stop it.)
- tomc1985 6y agoWhich is why the Chinese government needs to be called out, and their stoolies shamed publicly.
- morelisp 6y agoStarting with Sam Altman please.
- rorykoehler 6y agoWhat did he do?
- ReptileMan 6y agoFound the lack of zealous cancel culture in China refreshing. For some reason people find the constant self thought policing in the west to be on the right side of history on all topics, all the time burdensome.
- cblum 6y agoI tried raising awareness about China's bullshit at work once, and was met with awkward silence and was later told in private that I came off as ignorant/immature. All because I said China should be regarded by the West as an enemy/hostile state. Hell, it's the one thing I can side with the current administration on. To me China is not much different than pre-WWII Germany: over-the-top authoritarian, has ambitions to influence the direction of things at the world stage, and is currently scapegoating an ethnic minority and putting them in concentration camps. That wasn't the first time I tried bringing those things up in a group setting. In other occasions I was only met with awkward silence too. Feels like there's some subtle but insane denial going on.
- ghoomketu 6y agoI'm in complete and utter disbelief reading this. How can stuff like this be happening in 2020? I mean this seriously but as a lowly computer programmer is there any way we can help these poor people other than offer our sympathy?
- morelisp 6y agoThe #1 thing you can do is make sure something similar is not happening in your country. (Do you live in the US? Australia? Turkey? India? Russia? If so, it is.) The #2 thing you can do is make sure your own country is run by politicians who will not do it at home and will pressure China on this actual issue, not as a card in a negotiation actually about economics. I don't mean this as some kind of whataboutism. I mean pragmatically the leverage you have over the government of China is far less than the leverage you have over the government where you work and live. But the leverage they have over of the government of China may be significant.
- cmonnow 6y agoWhere did India get into the picture here ? The only protests going in India are those which are against government initiatives to help minorities. Interestingly, you didn't mention Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. where minorities are actually being killed, raped or converted.
- morelisp 6y agoModi is a racist populist shitbag. How can you call what happened in Kashmir an "initiative to help minorities"? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Jammu_and_Kashmir_lockdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Jammu_and_Ka... for those unfamiliar.) The list was not intended to be exhaustive, and now you are engaging in whataboutism. I listed some nations that have been good at hiding or cloaking their ethnic cleansing and that have a lot of HN readers. The House of Saud doesn't hide it and has probably fewer HN readers than, I don't know, Oklahoma.
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- chewzerita 6y ago(Goodbye karma, I will miss you...) The US also contributes to torture and murder of political dissidents. Capitalism (including the state capitalism found in China) directly causes human suffering and brutality. If people took a critical look at their own country's crimes they would come to the same conclusion. This comment section gets me depressed with how quick people will jump on the "China Bad" narrative. The US or any other capitalist nation is no better. At the level of nation states, no one can claim a moral high ground.
- neycoda 6y agoChina has built almost 400 new camps since 2017, while new testimonies have emerged alleging slave labour, forced sterilisations and organ harvesting taking place inside the camps too.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoThis is def. bad, though I feel somewhat hypocritical, since we're doing forced sterilizations here too... definitely it needs to stop in China AND the USA. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/18/914465793/ice-a-whistleblower-and-forced-sterilization https://www.npr.org/2020/09/18/914465793/ice-a-whistleblower...
- CobrastanJorji 6y agoWhile what's going on in the US is definitely bad, that appears so far to be an isolated incident involving a small number of individuals, and, while terrible, it's not really at the same scale as China's organized organ harvesting of minorities and dissidents. Evil is evil, and clearly the U.S. has done wrong, but whataboutism like this reads as an effort to dismiss the issue.
- onei 6y agoI'm trying to avoid downplaying this, but the articles linked from your link suggest this is primarily the actions of a single doctor. It seems possible this is an opportunistic individual taking advantage of the migrants who don't speak the language. The practice is obviously abhorrent wherever it happens, but it's not an exact comparison.
- beervirus 6y agoIt’s been a month and there’s no confirmation whatsoever. I’m leaning toward this story being fake news.
- golem14 6y agoI have read this too, but no further elaboration in the press, and I wonder why. Was it just hyperbole, or is the story being actively suppressed?
- bhaskara2 6y agoCCP must not go unpunished. The world needs to stand up to their lone wolf style. If we do not stand up against CCP now it will only embolden the evil. Vote with your wallets. Avoid buying China made products. Pressure/ Make laws for retailers to enforce Country of Origin information for each and every product especially Amazon. Amazon is flooded with cheap Chinese products almost certainly made in inhumane conditions. CCP and Xi Jinping must not be emboldened any further.
- kepler1 6y agoAs long as 95% of the people in the US keep on buying items with their wallets open, and we're distracted with our own internal strife, what hope is there to counter this? Our leadership certainly isn't up to standing against this sort of thing these days.
- apexalpha 6y agoAddressing indiviuals for group behaviour is bullshit. It's pointless. Actions that address the result of group behaviour need to come from the group (government). All else is just grandstanding.
- Hydraulix989 6y agoSay what you want about Trump, who is a completely disgusting individual, but I have seen more progress this presidential term in this regard than ever before.
- eloff 6y agoYou're getting down-voted because trump derangement syndrome. But it's true. No President has taken a harder line on China and the CCP. If you're in the US and you want to do something about the CCP, probably the most effective thing you could do is vote Trump. And I'm saying this as liberal who can't stand Trump. If that's effective for the long-term future and prosperity of the US, which is also important to counter the CCP - I don't know.
- A6gYPfxNas 6y agoThanks for posting this, this is the first time I've found a first-hand account of what's going on over there
- kepler1 6y agoI am sad to say, we in the US, UK, and EU can barely save ourselves from our own domestic troubles to present a strong authority to counter these human rights abuses. We kind of squandered our ability to police the world (right or wrong) given the distractions we created internally. Russia and China must be loving the situation.
- muststopmyths 6y agoIt's really interesting to me that people like this are actually able to eventually get out through legal means. Does China just not give a fuck what anyone thinks, knowing that there will never be any actual action against them ?
- tupputuppu 6y agoYes.
- Tarsul 6y agohere's another horrifying article from last month that shows how the eradication of the Uighurs will work out (since they simply won't be able to reproduce): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minorit... quote: "In the mostly Uighur regions of Hotan and Kashgar, births collapsed by more than 60% between 2015 and 2018, the last year for which government data was available, the AP found."
- wonnage 6y agoNot the first and won't be the last time this has happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
- lisnake 6y agoNot sure what you are implying. Are you saying that we cannot believe this man's testimony?
- wonnage 6y agoI believe Uighurs have been rounded up and forced to watch indoctrination videos, in a gross violation of their human rights. Forced sterilization seems plausible too given the history of the one child policy. I don't believe this stuff about torture cages. The Chinese government is trying to subdue the Uighurs by torturing them for 20 days and then... just letting them go?
- ng12 6y ago> His wife had sent endless letters to the UN and Foreign Ministry of Kazakhstan, where he was previously naturalised. She had also sat for an interview with Free Asia Radio, all of which pressured two Kazakh Ambassadors to finally visit him and soon after the Chinese authorities to free him.
- minerjoe 6y agoWhat leads you to belive that he is lying?
- orange_joe 6y agoThis is disgusting, the level of genocide denial in this thread is something I would not expect to find on HN. We literally have satellite images of these camps, videos of the abuse and still people like you deny. @dang, do we have rules about this?
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- franklampard 6y agoI don’t know how authentic this is. Last time a person did something like this on Reddit AMA was a CIA operative. https://www.reddit.com/r/LegitJustNoMIL/comments/e9xxry/be_careful_folks_reddit_ama_useruyghur_activist/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LegitJustNoMIL/comments/e9xxry/be_c...
- znpy 6y agoI'm appalled at how little coverage the Uighur story is receiving worldwide. It's pretty much a modern day holocaust equivalent, yet pretty much nobody is caring about this. Unbelievable.
- sizzle 6y ago"Twenty-four hours a day, prisoners are shackled. Iron chains are tied around their necks, fixed to loose iron blocks that Ӧmir says weigh around eight to ten kilograms, forcing prisoners to always be hunched down. He believes this is just one of the ways in which the camps are designed to instill a submissive posture in prisoners vis-a-vis their captors." I'm at a loss for words at the barbaric and utterly inhumane treatment towards their citizens. This is insane.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y agoI had a friend who was at the Hanoi Hilton for nearly 6 years and did a stretch at The Zoo. The Chinese & Vietnamese operate from the same torture book.
- csomar 6y ago> towards their citizens It's right there. They are Han Chinese and don't consider the Uighurs as their citizens or blood-brothers.
- apexalpha 6y agoWell the CCCP also had no problem performing forced abortions on their Han Chinese citizens. Sometimes in the 8th month of a pregnancy... All for the one child policy.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y agoDude have you been under a rock for the last three decades?
- agent00f 6y agoKeep in mind you live in country whose national passtime is bombing/killing brown & yellow people by the millions, then comically grandstanding about human rights. Or maybe by your choice of words those people don't matter because they're technically not citizens.
- nojvek 6y agoIt’s just sad what we humans do to other humans who don’t look like us. What CCP is doing to Uighurs is pretty close to what the Nazis did to Jews. But then again, even at home in US, we’re not so different. We have concentration camps and our President encourages it in the name of immigration politics. We have a long way to go before we can say “humans would make good multi planetary species”.
- throwaway293214 6y agoi touched upon this topic a couple of times with some chinese i know personally and i'd characterize their attitude as denial mixed with slight islamophobia. propaganda works?
- 29athrowaway 6y agoThis article only touches the surface on how bad it is. Read about what they do to women, what they're doing in their temples, etc. And the surveillance too. To buy a kitchen knife, they have to engrave it with a barcode which registers the knife to their name.
- saurabhnanda 6y agoNitpick: At one place the article says that Ӧmir was imprisoned for seven months and at another place it says he was released after 20 days.
- yorwba 6y ago20 days after being moved to a different facility.
- ilaksh 6y agoThis is obviously quite horrible for Uighurs. But to me this is actually also a very serious security issue for westerners. For multiple reasons: 1) this type of inhumane treatment has historically been used to justify wars, 2) there is a starkly different culture, and worldview as well as a very effective authoritarian regime "supporting" it. 3) We have very dire global economic conditions. 4) The people being tortured have more racial, ethnic and cultural similarity to people outside of China than inside. In the past we have seen global wars in similar circumstances. There needs to be a serious effort at an alternative resolution. But it seems like it would be much easier and likely than any clever development in a positive direction that the massive arsenals would start to be deployed.
- troughway 6y agoI mean, we’ve been telling HN this was happening for the entirety of 2020 now but we just get downvoted and talked down to, so, I’m not sure what you’re expecting by finally being outraged about the whole thing. We aren’t expecting anyone on HN to concretely do anything about it but feign morality. Today me, tomorrow you.
- sto_hristo 6y agoHey, do you remember what happened when the civilized world ignored concentration camps previously? How that ended and all that jazz?
- nendroid 6y agoCan someone confirm whether genocide is actually occuring? I understand cultural genocide is happening, but is mass human slaughter at the level of the holocaust actually occurring? I don't condone the actions china takes but I don't want to read an exaggerated story either.
- yadco 6y agoIf this is true, why aren't we boycotting China?
- omosubi 6y agoBecause that would hurt the davos crowd
- dragonelite 6y agoJust like nobody is boycotting the US/EU from its illegal wars and border concentration camps. Gotta make that cash to feed and keep people happy. The sad stone cold truth.
- fsflover 6y agoIt's almost impossible. Even iPhones are made in China.
- abc-xyz 6y agoNot sure why you say “even iPhones” as this kind of high-end tech is likely among the most difficult to manufacture outside of China. But even iPhones are starting to get manufactured in India, and you also have other smartphones being manufactured in Vietnam (I believe this include the new Pixel). Trump’s China tariffs have already forced many companies to move to Vietnam/India/Mexico/etc. The few remaining are likely hoping Biden will win since he said he would end Trump’s China tariffs.
- fsflover 6y ago> Not sure why you say “even iPhones” Because Apple is a trillion-dollar company.
- frequentnapper 6y agoOne thing we could do against this is to lobby our govts to crack down on mainland chinese spies and ccp supporters in our areas. In Vancouver, there were counter-protestor chinese who were recording and taking photos of hong kong protestors. Our govt needs to be very careful of who they let in from the mainland china.
- throw2010242346 6y agoI've spoken to refugees who fled from the Khmer Rouge and they tell me that they do not believe there is genocide happening in Xinjiang right now. The simple reason? There isn't a mass exodus of Uighurs as we've seen in previous history of mass genocides (Jews during ww2, Khmer Rouge and recently the Rohingya). Yes, there are small pockets of them here and there that claim torture and abuse, but most of them either keep on changing their stories or that they are funded by the US government, so I don't see a difference in this story here. Let's also not forget that Xinjiang shares a land border with Afghanistan, where the US has bombed Uighur terrorists. Would you guys suggest bombing Uighurs being the better solution here? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighur-militants-well-taliban-fighters-afghanistan-n845876 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighu...
- idea_heroin 6y agoIn your last sentence are you admitting these camps exist as described and the only alternative solution is bombing them? How about a third option- neither bomb nor enslave.
- throw2010242346 6y agoI am saying that the US is shedding crocodile tears. The US in the past 30 or so years have killed countless Muslim civilians, yet for some reason, cares so much about Uighurs in China (whom they chose to bomb in Afghanistan). Hence I find all of these reportings incredibly dubious.
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- throw2010242346 6y agoInstead of crying "fake news"! Why don't you share more information to counter my arguments? I'd prefer sources that's not from either Adrian Zenz or ASPI. Thanks.
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- ciarannolan 6y agoI have not seen a single defense of this behavior in this thread except those with the thesis of "but America".
- throw2010242346 6y agoHow about, most the stories of what's happening in Xinjiang might not actually be true? https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-... So thegrayzone called rightly about the Bolivian coup to be orchestrated by the US with the MSM all agreeing with the US talking point of the Bolivian 2019 election being fraudulent. However, the recent election from last week prove all MSM basically being the mouthpiece of the US's war propaganda machine. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/bolivia-left-return-power-evo-morales-mas https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/bolivia-left-r...
- ahthat 6y agoMy question is this: to what degree is the largest company in the word by market cap reliant on Chinese industry for manufacturing its products?
- geoffbp 6y agoThis is horrendous, China is a frightening place
- throwaway202010 6y agoThis is so much worse than anything I’ve read on the subject up until now. As someone who has worked closely with a man who was born, raised, and educated in China, I can attest to the brutality of the regime. He simply would not say anything negative about CCP. The fear was more real than simple anxiousness. I sensed that he believed there could be real consequences for crossing the government, even in private in a conversation with someone in the US.
- mac01021 6y agoSince I'm American and not acquainted with "Varsity", any comments from anyone here about how reputable or not reputable it is would be appreciated.
- NEDshill 6y agolol. the evidence of said concentration camps is s photo of a finger and weight loss. You gotta be kidding me CIA shill.
- NEDshill 6y ago> Radio Free Asia. CIA proapganda > Evidence is a photo of his finger that looks like any other finger, and weight loss? lmao
- goku99 6y agoChina is acting like that global villainy country now. They problems with all it's neighbors, well even with a country which is separated by 100kms by sea (AUS). They're quite intelligently meddling in Nepal govt. to threaten India, at the same time taking over villages of Nepal. .They have problems with Mongols, Muslims, Tibetans, Hong Kong. All while actively debt trapping poor nations. They foul cry when a nation blocks chinese tech, but every foreign tech is pretty much banned in entire China! I don't see any end to this. In the current COVID situation, not even a group of nations could stand up to china's domination. Maybe it's just too late to take any action. They're playing dirty, so ideally we should to. But could we? I doubt. They're lobbying power is way too tremendous. At least my country, no leader has a spine to stand up.
- silexia 6y agoThe world needs to stand up and fight evil like this. If you remain silent now, it will be you or your family in a concentration camp next.
- __m 6y agoIt’s much more humane to just bomb or waterboard them. /s We probably killed a lot more innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq; they’ll just discard the criticism as an excuse for starting a trade war
- ilyich 6y agoThere is one thing that confuses me: >After an 18-month legal struggle, he was granted political asylum in the Netherlands, while his wife and children are living safely in Turkey. So after such inhuman tortures living safely with his wife and kids in Turkey was not enough for him? Why on earth did he leave his family for the Netherlands? And why there was the 18-month legal struggle? I believe the struggle was because judges are not as easily fooled as the general audience. They need real proofs, not just his own words and some scars on his hand. All this looks very much like he just invented this horror story to get a refugee status in a rich European country. As for me, I'd rather believe the Chinese government who says it is fake news than this Kazakh-Uighur. Another question: why not Kazakhstan if he's half Kazakh? Why first Turkey and then the Netherlands?
- throwawayay02 6y agoI think it would be really important for a good book to come out and to be publicized tremendously, like The Archipelago of Gulag or If This Is a Man, that would capture the public conscience to what is happening. Unfortunately written in the first person.
- alphite 6y agoMore ycombinator suppression dropping this off the main page. Great job big tech.
- dang 6y agoUsers flagged it. That's usually what happened. I don't think they're "big tech". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24890813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24890813
- spinny 6y agoThe world needs to halt trading with china and stop funding ccp controlled organizations (WHO and UN)
- p3opl3 6y agoThe title of the article should really be changed to something like: "How to set yourself up as the great evil that the world needs to challenge." Unlike North Korea - obliterating China would have huge financial benefits for the rich and war mongers. One step closer to mutually assured destruction folks - that's all I'm saying. They Super AI couldn't come soon enough frankly.
- limbojunkie 6y agoAnd Muslims are storming over a few silly cartoons instead of protesting for Uighur.
- limbojunkie 6y agoAnd Muslims today are storming over silly cartoons instead of supporting the Uighur.
- pikadudulu 6y agoAfter all the tortures he described. That's the evidence picture he showed? A 'scar' on hand, hmm, alright, fully convinced!
- SZJX 6y agoA huge caveat should be given that as this guy is currently applying for political asylum in the Netherlands, he has every motivation to severely exaggerate the experience. Outlandish claims such as forced abortion and even organ harvesting (a classic propaganda tactic by the Falun Gong cult against CCP) are being thrown around in the article with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. I think it's totally plausible that he suffered some of what he described in a secret prison during some periods of his ordeal, but it would be absurd and nonsensical if all the guards do all the time in every camp is to torture the inmates non-stop, as he described. Also, there were indeed several terrorist attacks committed by Uyghur extremists throughout the years, each with dozens of civilian deaths (e.g. hacking people down indiscriminately in a train station, or detonating a bomb in the downtown), which the article conveniently totally ignored. If such attacks occurred in the West, they would garner a very strong response and an outpouring of support, as what happened in France. Instead, whenever the western media mention them (in passing), they needed to even add quotes around the word "terrorist attack", which is simply absurd and is double standards at its finest. Of course the CCP's description of camps where "people can leave at any time" (if they ever claimed that) would also be a vast stretch. The camps are not nice and are most likely forced. But the truth is, as always, most likely somewhere in between. Cultural integration is a very hard problem, also for Muslims living in western Europe as we all have seen. Of course a western government could not force everybody into a camp, learn the national language well (just as many Muslims in western countries don't even speak the national language well, so do many Uyghurs not speak Mandarin, and this is related to their economic plight and ease of radicalization), and ask them to renounce extremist/jihadist thoughts, so it is understandable that the camps are an aberration in western eyes. But to describe it as some sort of Nazi-style concentration/extermination camp is also wildly inaccurate. Many people seem to fail to/refuse to recognize that. To see such a clearly distorted and sensationalized account getting so many upvotes here (many more than an Economist article a few days ago which still fiercely criticizes the camps but is at least more up to journalistic standards and objective) is quite disappointing, I have to say. I guess people like to see what they want to believe, so that the world can easily make sense to them (i.e. CCP is the embodiment of "evil", no matter what that word even means and, the reality that the world is never black-and-white), and HN is unfortunately not that different.