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Cameras and secret trackers reveal where Amazon returns end up
- jf 6y agoTo save you the trouble of loading the page: the Amazon returns they tracked for this article ended up in a landfill.
- frereubu 6y agoI'm not sure you actually read the article. They bought 12 items and one went to landfill (which Amazon said was because it arrived damaged). What they describe is pretty egregious, but not all returns go to landfill - some are resold, some are sold in bulk, and some go to landfill.
- jf 6y agoWow. You’re right. Thank you for correcting me!
- sokoloff 6y ago> 30 to 40 per cent of all online purchases are sent back That seems almost an order of magnitude higher than I’d expect. Setting aside kids shoes (which probably do get 50% returned), I can’t imagine sending back even 5% of my online purchases, let alone 30-40%. I think I’ve sent back exactly 1 Amazon order in the last year, out of nearly 100.
- searchableguy 6y agoFew people probably abuse the system too much. There are scamming forums and services for Amazon refunds. Scammers take 10-20% of the item cost for refunding it without giving the original. A trend I observed here among college students is buying clothes for a party or instagram selfie and then returning it. Small sellers get screwed pretty hard. You should check their forums.
- glitchcrab 6y agoWait, people genuinely buy clothes (although this is more like borrowing) just for the purpose of taking a selfie? I can't even begin to comprehend how desperate they must be to look good and fit in.
- adambyrtek 6y agoYes, this is so common that there is a name for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardrobing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardrobing
- glitchcrab 6y agoOh the practise I'm aware of, it was more the application of it which surprised me here. I guess it makes more sense (although that's stretching the definition of sense) when you apply it to influencers (a connection I failed to make initially).
- shiftpgdn 6y agoWait until you hear how much food foodie influencers throw away after they get their money shot (it's all of it.)
- jhbadger 6y agoBack in the days of brick-and-mortar shopping there used to be people who bought a large screen TV shortly before a big sports game and then returned it afterwards. A lot of stores revised their return policies because of this.
- ThePadawan 6y agoIt varies significantly between sectors. I for one have the unfortunate problem that my clothing size is somewhere between M and L. Whenever I buy from a new manufacturer, I basically have to flip a coin if I pick the right one. So for some clothing products, I would definitely hit 50%.
- medmunds 6y agoAnd unlike many clothing stores, Amazon doesn't allow directly exchanging an item to change size. Instead, they treat an exchange as a refund followed by a new purchase (at the then-current price). When something is on sale, the discount may no longer apply by the time you go to exchange it—so if you're at all uncertain about the size you're better off ordering one of each up front, and then returning the ones that don't fit.
- Freak_NL 6y agoThis is a well know problem with online clothes shopping by now. In the Netherlands 13% of all online purposes is returned, and between 30% and 60% (shoes) of clothing. I have the same problem with my 200cm and slim posture. I have a handful of brands I can order blindly, but jeans in particular are a chore to get the right fit. I strongly prefer brick and mortar shops, but size availability varies. People used to think that returned goods would just be freshened up and sold again — just like clothing you try on in a brick and mortar store — but the reality of the system is slowly getting understood thanks to investigative journalism worldwide. A Dutch television program in this category concluded that returned clothes that are in good condition are often bound for for markets in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, where there is a demand for brand goods below or at the price of lower quality Chinese imports. Some brands don't want this because of brand dilution and fear of their products hitting the black market, so those items are simply destroyed instead. Suggested solutions include charging a fee for returns, but that will have to be mandatory because people will just shop where the returns are free if left optional. Personally I would like to see high street shops offer the option of trying on clothing ordered online at their shop for free (or others even if a good business model can be found), and have them handle the returns instead of this grossly unsustainable system we have now. By eliminating the risk of people abusing the system, the need to remove those items from the chain is diminished significantly; just like regular clothes shopping, but with the benefit of a much larger catalogue.
- CodeWriter23 6y agoIMO it's definitely exaggerated. If you're selling through Fulfillment by Amazon (as I did for years), the merchant is charged for the return shipping cost, which is often UPS Retail Pricing. Considering the inbound shipping costs to the fulfillment center, the storage and handling costs, hard cost of the finished good, the cost of returning the item from Amazon to the merchant if it is deemed to no longer be "New" (or the choice by the merchant to destroy) plus Amazon's commission of 15-20% depending on the item category, a 30-40% return rate would make one's business unviable at best and bankrupt at worst.
- an_opabinia 6y ago> a 30-40% return rate would make one's business unviable at best and bankrupt at worst. Amazon's retail business has poor profitability.
- CodeWriter23 6y ago"Amazon's" Retail Business is great. They have third parties supply most of the inventory and take most of the risk. And then they collect the metrics and make their own knock-offs of the clear winners.
- BlueScreenDeath 6y agoYou might not be using Amazon right, just one example: Every time I need a new filter for my air purifier I buy a new machine, swap the filters and return the new machine with the old dirty filter.
- tiku 6y agoHere in the Netherlands it is almost common for girls to shop and fit at home, the sent a lot of stuff back.
- x87678r 6y agoI have friends who send back nearly everything. Not sure about shoe size? Order 3 sizes, keep the one you like and send back the other two (or return all 3 if you dont like it). Want a shirt? Order 5 and keep the ones you like, if any.
- vladvasiliu 6y agoI'm sure there are people who abuse the system, but for you example of clothes, I'm not surprised there is a high number of returns. Last year I bought two Levis jeans at the same time. One the exact same model, color and size as the one I was wearing which was worn out, the other a different color (figured I could use having two pairs of jeans). None fit me correctly. The model I had already was too big, the other too small. Sent both of them back and made the effort to go to a brick and mortar store where I could try them. Turns out the sizes had changed or something. I ended up with a different cut, as the model I had was either too tight on the legs or too wide at the waist...
- loeg 6y agoLevis in particular are just notoriously inconsistent in sizing. At a brick and mortar store you grab five pairs to try on if you want to buy one or two.
- emayljames 6y agoFor mens sizes I find that very odd, as the size are defined units of measurement, unlike the headache that is womens sizes.
- Ma8ee 6y agoTake out a tape measure and measure the actual size of a few different brands of trousers. They are never even close to the size that's on the label. Maybe men's clothes are more consistent than women's, but the label is always wrong by several inches.
- jjoonathan 6y agoI think it depends a lot on category. What you said about kids clothing is spot on, but I'd expect similar dynamics for women's clothing (tighter fits = lower tolerance, also lower tolerance for color mismatch etc) and there are a couple of categories that I've outright stopped buying on Amazon because of the enormous problem rate, namely whitelabeled consumer electronics. In 2020 I've returned ~5%: markers that were dry test clips with mislabeled quantity de-laminated screen protector sheet mislabeled thermal printer (photo, listing said it had an internal spool compartment but it didn't) cell-phone arm stand that lacked the spring tension, even adjusted to maximum, to hold up my small, un-cased Google Pixel 1% sounds quite low, but if I had foregone buying anything heat/storage sensitive and followed my own rule about whitelabeled goods that's exactly where I'd be. On the other hand, my returns were painless and most gambles paid off so I think I'll carry on.
- nextos 6y agoI've also stopped buying at Amazon after 15 years. Even consumables and small items are problematic. Just in the last year, I encountered many issues including: * Showerhead that came without box, and clearly used. It still had a lot of water inside! * Underwear from a brand that sells items inside a sealed bag and discards returns came used, without bag (yuck!) * A module of Samsung RAM had visible wear signs and didn't work * Cycling glasses came without box and several missing items The underwear thing upset me so much I emailed Jeff Bezos. After lots of emails forwarded around, nothing happened. It's sad because they used to be good. But the number of returned and counterfeit items sold as new is mindboggling.
- dorchadas 6y agoThis is really why I hesitate to buy clothes through Amazon, even though I wear a size that they have in stock easier than Kohl's or any of the other department stores (plus, I'm in the middle of losing weight, so I'm in between sizes). It's quite frustrating, especially with fitting rooms closed currently in my state.
- nextos 6y ago
- dhruval 6y agoYour intuition is correct, at least in the product categories that I have experience with. Anything over 2% returns to me generally indicates to me that something is wrong with the product or the product description is not clear enough. In fact having a 30-40% return rate with a high enough volume will get a buyer banned from Amazon. https://www.wsj.com/articles/banned-from-amazon-the-shoppers-who-make-too-many-returns-1526981401 https://www.wsj.com/articles/banned-from-amazon-the-shoppers...
- RandallBrown 6y agoI used to work for Nordstrom who has an even better return policy than Amazon. For certain items, like women's dresses, return rates were up to 80%. Part of this is because people will buy several sizes of the same item and return the ones that don't fit. The other part is people wearing it once then returning it.
- lol636363 6y ago30% seems really high. And I say that as someone who returns items more than most of my friends. My estimate is about 3-4% of items that I have returned over last 15 years of online shopping. And my friends think that is too high and guilt me for abusing the system. But maybe I should not feel as guilty. The reasons I return items is usually false advertising. I used to spend hours reading reviews and product specs before buying. But now I don't have time to sift through reviews. And of course, fake reviews make it harder. So all I got is maker's ads and if ads are lying then I don't feel guilty returning an item. It seems most people have an attitude that if a buyer got duped with false advertisements then it is buyer's fault.
- jjoonathan 6y agoI have the same return philosophy as you. In 2019 and 2020 it has resulted in ~5% returns, in 2018 it resulted in 20% returns. Why? Athletic bluetooth earbuds. That single category was such a stinker that it singlehandedly quadrupled my return rate. 2015 had a similar spike when I started equipping an electronics lab, but 2016 and 2017 were fine. In any case, I think the reasonable return rate is a heavy function of what you're buying. One person's 10% return rate might be borderline fraudulent while another person's 30% return rate might be perfectly reasonable.
- coding123 6y agoI was very surprised about my own Amazon usage today... For the year 2020 (so far): Amazon Orders: 231 Returns: 38 Return Percent: 16.45 Based on Gmail search: amazon "your refund" after:2020/01/01 before:2021/01/01 For the year 2019: Amazon Orders: 32 Returns: 11 Return Percent: 34.3 Based on Gmail search: amazon "your refund" after:2019/01/01 before:2020/01/01 A couple of things to note, 2019 I was mostly buying and returning bras, shorts and shirts that my wife was trying on, because Target and other stores stopped carrying some of her favorites. Some of these clothing purchases actually spilled into early 2020. 2020 I am returning things a lot less because it's a lot of Pantry orders.
- rakamotog 6y agoRefund can be for orders which they were unable to deliver. Example:- Groceries. I get refund if even 1 out of 30 items is not available, that isn't a return. Are these 38 in 2020 all returns?
- coding123 6y agoActually yeah, I think 2 things never showed up, so they were refunded automatically. So I guess that's 36 returns.
- vincentmarle 6y agoI’m more surprised about the huge number of orders you placed this year alone. Compared to me: I have placed 197 Amazon orders since 2013, and have had 13 returns so far.
- kneel 6y agoAmazon sells so much garbage I'm not surprised that they end up tossing most of it. I used prime for about a year, had probably a 50% return rate and ended up cancelling. Their items are so low quality it's not worth the effort.
- dheera 6y agoThere are lots of products I need to return multiple times before I get a good copy. Like my Dell 24 inch 4K monitor. Most of Amazon's warehouses are duds with faint grey lines across the screen, so you have to expect to order and return 3-4 times before you get a good one. The ones you return will probably of course be sent to other customers instead of getting sent back to Dell. And there are the Samyang/Rokinon camera lenses as well -- you need to usually buy 3-4, test them out and keep the sharpest copy. Quality control issues on the manufacturer's side but it's a good deal if you're willing to deal with it. Some sellers just suck at packaging. There are numerous products that are too easy to damage just by opening the packaging -- I received one item completely wrapped in 8 layers of bubble wrap followed by an entire coating of packing tape over 100% of it. It was nearly impossible to cut open without cutting into wires because you really don't know where the wires are under all that packaging.
- e40 6y agoI don't believe that stat at all. I've ordered way too many items, since 1999. I think I returned 1 or 2 in that 21 years.
- amelius 6y agoFortunately, the shipping costs of returns will always be on the seller. (Because you can't compete brick-and-mortar stores out of existence in part by having no return costs, and then later introduce these costs).
- washadjeffmad 6y agoIt's important to note "sent back" doesn't imply "because it was defective". People who pay for Prime do it specifically because it facilitates the way they shop. They buy a lot of stuff, figure out what they want, like, and need, and send the rest back. It's completely normal, expected behavior in retail apparently.
- Shivetya 6y agoQVC has an incredible return policy and their margins are built around it. I do think that anything they cannot process properly should be handed off to charity groups who would get items in exchange for helping sort it all out. Then again, having seen my local St Vincents and Goodwill they to suffer overflow but at least with Amazon returns the items would be newer
- gogopuppygogo 6y agoI never would have thought this till I started a relationship with a woman who buys several sizes of everything she shops for to ensure she gets the right fit. Women’s attire doesn’t have standard sizing so every brand is different. It’s a giant guessing game. Basically, the industry needs some standards to help with all this waste.
- jiofih 6y agoBut that’s completely different from ordering from Amazon, and not even considered a return per se. Zappos and Zalando operate under this model where you try out different sizes and return the ones that don’t fit.
- exolymph 6y agoNo it isn't, you can order clothes on Amazon and many women (and men) do.
- Supermancho 6y agoCan confim, my wife does this for me and herself.
- JorgeGT 6y agoNot only that, when I order clothes from Amazon they always come in a special plastic bag which is already prepared for re-sealing and return, instead of their signature cardboard boxes. I guess the industry knows that the only way to sell clothes online is having more than half of them returned, no questions asked. It is probably cheaper than having physical stores to try them out, or even than standardizing clothes sizing: just let the client order the item in two or three sizes and return the ones that don't fit.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago>Basically, the industry needs some standards // They futz with sizing because it's a part of their marketing. Fashion targeting older/ fatter people will have smaller sizing to flatter the customers. I think buying clothes that don't fit just because you want to say it's a particular size is far more a part of female culture (in my social circles in the UK): womens' clothes are in "sizes", men's clothes are in measurements (inches/cms). I don't think the industry, nor many of the customers for female fashion want accurate measurement-based sizing.
- jtbayly 6y agoWith all the fake items, I'd say that 30-40% sounds about right, and that a good portion of what is returned should be destroyed, not resold.
- mathattack 6y agoIt’s relative. I rarely things. My wife will return 3 items for each she keeps. 30-40% seems roughly reasonable as an average when you factor in fraud.
- pwagland 6y agoI can confirm (via unverifiable sources sadly, so this is only anecdotal) that this number is at worst believable. I know of other online retailers that see similar return numbers. Particularly in clothing. From what I understand it is a relatively common practice to order 2-3 of a given item in different sizes, and to return the ones that don't fit. And this is just the "honest returners", not even going into the whole "order this fancy clothing, wear it to a party, and then return it" "dishonest returners"
- baby 6y agoThat is quite an insane number! What a waste or back and forth, and this because cities are not dense in the US and everything was built around cars. I probably return less than 5% of what I buy, but my gf returns a lot of the clothes she buys online.
- lmilcin 6y agoThat's because returns are not due to faulty products, they are due to people trying to exploit the system. I have bought hundreds of items on Amazon and never had to send back any. I bought thousands, of different types, on other services and I only ever had to send back two and that due to the fact the seller sent a wrong item. I always do at least a very quick research regarding the seller and the item so that probably helps. But the 30% I can understand is due to people who never intend to buy the product or buy a bunch of them to send some back. I can sort of understand it in some of the categories (for example clothes) but I also see a lot of people proclaiming how smart they are because they surf on the wave of products they never pay for.
- tmoertel 6y agoOnline "try before you buy" shopping, where you return everything you don't like, is more common than you'd think. Amazon actually uses this phrase as their pitch for the Prime Wardrobe program [1]: """ Try before you buy. Exclusively for Prime Members. 1. Choose up to 8 items. 2. Only pay for what you keep. 3. Free and easy returns. """ [1] https://www.amazon.com/b?node=14807110011 https://www.amazon.com/b?node=14807110011
- AdrianB1 6y agoI never did a return, but I draw no conclusion from this statistical sample of one. I had no idea what is the percentage of returns, but I am quite disappointed by Amazon.
- crazygringo 6y ago> The tactic of enticing customers to buy more than they need and return what they don't want "has had tragic repercussions for the environment and business," he says. That's disingenuous. I've never purchased "more than I need" from Amazon. But probably about 10% of items purchased for the first time simply aren't as advertised -- not Amazon's fault, but the manufacturer's. They don't meet the needs you bought them for, so you have no choice but to return them. And of course clothing is notorious, because manufacturers still insist on making up their own idiosyncratic definitions of S/M/L, when simply providing measurements in inches or centimeters would fix most problems. (Also color-accurate photography, for when the item listed and photographed as red turns out to be orange-pink.) > "You're lucky if half of all returns can still be sold as new, so a huge amount of merchandise has to be dispositioned via some other means — liquidation, refurbishment, recycling, or landfill." Yup, that's just how it works. That's why I buy a lot of stuff "open box" off eBay -- especially things like dongles, adapters, cheap peripherals. They all come from returns from places like Amazon and Best Buy, but are half the price. It's great. This article isn't surprising, except for one data point about a single bag that wasn't resold. But they're probably hiring minimum-wage workers to categorize returns, who make errors. There isn't really anything new in this article.
- saalaa 6y ago> That's disingenuous. I've never purchased "more than I need" from Amazon. My guess is you've never purchased clothes then. Regardless, this is your own individual experience and doesn't represent the trend as a whole.
- navbaker 6y agoLiterally three sentences later they talk about buying clothes.
- dralley 6y agoNo, this is absolutely a "thing", and I know several people who shop clothes from Amazon this way. It is incredibly wasteful.
- loeg 6y ago
- tomarr 6y agoThe GPS tracker technique does not seem foolproof, basic QA on returned goods would likely be trashing the GPS trackers.
- BlueScreenDeath 6y agoExactly, a GPS tracker in the landfill != product in the landfill.
- rantwasp 6y agoyeah. what people don’t understand is that the return has to be processed when it comes back. in an ideal world anything like a GPS tracker would surely be discovered. there are also several issue with how the return may go. amazon may tell you to just keep the item (if the cost of shipping + processing the return is higher that the actual product price / margin on the item). they may decide that the item is in not good condition when it comes back. the packaging may be missing parts or damaged. i would guess that a lot of items don’t make it through the process. also i would guess that because Amazon keeps existing and making a profit they have this baked into their business model. Also I would be shocked if the return rate is 30-40%. Again guessing, I would say it’s probably 1-2%. A lot of people buy shit they don’t need and keep it. As far as “hacking the system” I think that they should have a system in place to track how many things you return (and if they were in good condition/could be resold) and how much money they made on your purchases. If overall you’re a net negative I would not be surprised if your account got suspended/banned. Why would they do business with you if you’re a bad actor?
- 7952 6y agoYou could surely hide it easily enough in the cardboard? Just wrap it over in parcel tape. The people at the other end will just assume you went a bit overboard in packing.
- marketingPro 6y agoGPS emits an EMF, should be easy catch if you are trying. Also, I wonder if you can catch it with batteries. Does amazon make the seller list the type of battery in their product?
- blondie9x 6y agoWe have known for awhile that online shopping is hurting the planet. Alibaba and Amazon are a huge part of the problem as the biggest online retailer in the world. with packaging thrown out and returns often destroyed. There are efforts to mitigate this but they are insufficient and need to be further developed.
- S_A_P 6y agoIf the return rate is truly 30-40% wouldn’t this be easily proven by quarterly income statements? Even at the generous assumption that every item is sold for double the wholesale price if 1 of 3 packages are returned and tossed/recycled or otherwise not resold I can’t imagine Amazon being even close to profitable as a retailer. I know Amazon was famously unprofitable for years but those days are gone now right?
- azinman2 6y agoSo this was a lot about Amazon, but it leaves out comparisons to any other store. What do others do? Is this the common practice?
- chaboud 6y agoI don't know what it's like now, but, when I worked at Best Buy in the 90s, we had a couple of shoulder height palletized bins in the back. If a customer brought something back with a "didn't work" reason, it went in the bin. We threw items in the bin from a distance, so they were definitely unsellable. I'm sure that lots of merchandise that would have been functional/sellable ended up being thrown out.
- bluedino 6y agoDevo!
- kitteh 6y agoI remember as a pc tech (before they did that geek squad stuff) having to validate computer returns. The amount of stuff people would pull daily always amazed me. Putting bricks in a computer box, an old video card for a matrix vga card, the most wild was some video equipment where they replaced it with a two liter bottle of urine. I remember confronting people once I opened it and they would always pull the "well my son packed it and gave it to me" and promptly leave (with their item). They usually worked multiple stores in the area and sometimes we'd chat with the other stores, but usually that was for the bigger scams (people using altered receipts, asking for cash refunds on multi thousand dollar purchases).
- dade_ 6y agoIt is standard practice in the industry, and certainly any by any profitable retailer. In fact it was a story by an executive about how much money it was costing the company to manage returns, and it was far cheaper to just throw them away. It surprised me at first, but I came to learn that this is just how it is done. I am disappointed by CBC making a click bait Amazon story, when it is actually the story of retail that our unconscious civilization ignores. CBC does mention this later in the article.
- decko 6y ago> Fulfillment by Amazon Donations, which Amazon says will help sellers send returns directly to charities instead of disposing of them. So the seller ends up having to take the loss?
- dleslie 6y agoYes, and it's a serious problem.
- winkeltripel 6y agoBut they at least get a tax write off for a percentage of the value of the donation.
- jlokier 6y agoNo. It's not "at least they get a tax write off", because that implies a benefit, such as when paying profits to a charity you want to support anyway. With these returned items, the seller just loses money and has a lower income than if they could resell them. Their tax goes down because of returns, but that's just normal income tax because their income goes down. If they didn't donate the goods, just threw them away, they would pay exactly the same tax. So there is no tax benefit gained from donating.
- nearbuy 6y agoThe seller has the option of taking the item back if they prefer. If they don't want it back, they can donate it.
- TigeriusKirk 6y agoWell, everyone who buys from the seller splits the loss. No doubt it's built into their prices.
- ajharrison 6y agoHow would one go about purchasing the returned goods between the buyer and the wastebasket?
- chrisseaton 6y agoHow do these trackers read a GPS signal from inside these bulky items, plus packaged, plus inside a building?
- ardy42 6y agoI have some GPS data loggers that can do that. The fix isn't great or very accurate indoors, but it's probably good enough for this purpose.
- myself248 6y agoNewer GPS chips are downright magical. Several years ago, I had a 5-series Ublox get a signal when, as a joke, I soldered a trimmed stub of paperclip to its antenna pin. No tuned patch antenna, no polarization sensitivity, no preamp, no SAW filter, just a piece of wire that I eyeballed to be roughly probably something like a quarter-wave at 1.5GHz. Ish. It got a fix in about 3 minutes, indoors, on a workbench, under 2 shelves of equipment and parts, in a part of a building with a double roof. And that was the 5th generation chipset. We're on the 9th now, and they're much, much, much more sensitive. All the habits and assumptions I learned with my 2002-era Garmin eTrex no longer apply.
- ryanmarsh 6y agoJain likes the convenience of online shopping but worries about Amazon's carbon footprint. What is this article about exactly?
- sudoaza 6y agoI guess this means you can buy stuff, return a box with trash inside, get the money back and keep the stuff. Sweet!
- bserge 6y agoThat's like the most common scam on Amazon. Many of the packages are put back on the shelves/on sale without being checked, so some other buyer gets it and either has to (once again) return it or lose their money. It's pretty ridiculous.
- whoisjuan 6y agoWhile this may seem shocking, logistically it makes sense. It’s potentially easier to destroy or dump a returned product than re-preparing it for sale. I went out on a date with a program manager for one of Amazon’s return programs and she told me her job was basically finding out ways to repurpose returns as cheaply as possible. Apparently destroying and dumping it’s the easiest and least resource consuming way to deal with returns. In a similar note, search for Amazon Warehouse. That’s one of their programs for returned merchandise and sometimes I have found insane deals there. But you gotta check often.
- kennywinker 6y ago> Apparently destroying and dumping it’s the easiest and less resource consuming way to deal with returns. Not the least resource consuming - the least costly to amazon. There is a massive environmental cost to the practice - it's just externalized. If the companies involved (amazon, the manufacturer) had to bare the full environmental cost, the calculation would often come out different.
- whoisjuan 6y agoTotally! That’s what I was going for. Least resource consuming but I’m talking about economic resources. Like man hours, packaging, transportation, etc. The environmental impact is big! I hope this is being considered in their Climate Pledge.
- lotu 6y agoIf the environmental cost is dominated by shipping I could see destruction as more environmentally friendly. This is likely the for many small cheap items.
- kennywinker 6y agoFine, but two things are happenings: 1. It’s being hidden from consumers, who might adapt their behavior if they knew a return meant the trash. 2. Stuff is shipped back to amazon and then disposed of.
- henvic 6y agoAm I the only one worried about: * The privacy of consumers who might eventually buy some of the stuff stuffed with their trackers. * The scene at 1:49 where it appears they put a tracker in a plastic bag inside something like a coffee kettle. * Sticking a tracker to a kid's toy. What the hell is wrong with these people? I get they wanted to do a great investigation, but this seems so wrong to me...
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoJournalists tend to get a little more leeway for investigative purposes. And presumably they followed up and retrieved these trackers in some way. And will get rid of any personal information about the people who received the items. Also, note they were expecting most or all of them to end up in landfills, them finding homes is an ideal outcome, but maybe not expected. It also says something about the quality of returned merchandise and inspection of it: Amazon didn't find and remove the tracking devices, the products "looked fine" and were sent on their way. Perhaps that's one reason Amazon prefers to just toss stuff.
- throwaheyy 6y agoYes, you’re the only one. Anybody could put a tracker inside items they’re returning, it’s on Amazon to inspect returned items, which any brick-and-mortar store would do.
- quantified 6y agoThat’s an interesting ethics angle. Certainly a potential issue, but not likely to be an actual problem. They’d know where the item ended up, but not much about who it ended up with. Kid’s toys go to adults first on average. Knowing I bought a backpack on Amazon doesn’t say much, a little weird, but far better than a phone’s location tracking. If the items were sensitive in some way (bondage equipment, say, or doctored home security equipment) then certainly.
- kennywinker 6y ago> The privacy of consumers who might eventually buy some of the stuff stuffed with their trackers. I don't share your concern here. CBC is a reputable org. They can just turn off the trackers if the items appear to be getting re-sold to an end-consumer. Even then, I don't think it would be a privacy violation for a journalist to go and talk to them and say "hey did you know this was a returned item?" etc. If the kids toy made it into the hands of a kid without that tracker being noticed, I'd have deeper concerns. I.e. what's stopping someone from putting razorblades or some toxic checmical in a kids toy and returning it? Someone needs to check over returned items for basic quality, and should DEFINITELY notice the massive tracker.
- marvindanig 6y agoNow compare these lies of recycling goods and plastic with the other lie of harvesting trees for paper pulp. ;-) It's a perfect animal farm!
- cbanek 6y agoI feel the worst about mattresses getting returned. I'm tempted to buy a new bed (it's just that time), but not being able to try them out, I'd feel bad returning one if I didn't like it. Those things are huge and hard to recycle, and you can't exactly resell them.
- manigandham 6y agoDepending on the company, they are often donated to homeless shelters and other places. But yes they generate a lot of waste too.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mkskm 6y agoIt's possible to resell nicer mattresses on Craigslist. CA also has a mandated recycling fee imposed on their sale now.
- redisman 6y agoBut it’s foam. So what they’ll shred it and put it in a trash bag?
- humaniania 6y agoBean bag chairs, punching bags, who knows what else.
- cbanek 6y agoI'm reminded of the Simpson's lunch lady: "There's very little meat in these gym mats" as she's grinding them into meatloaf. I'm more concerned now since who knows with the virus what the right way of possibly sanitizing a mattress would take that nobody will be taking them for a while.
- 6y ago
- drummer 6y agoRhetorical question: if the returns are unsellable, why don't they give them away for free to the poor?
- tinus_hn 6y agoBecause people who get free things don’t buy things. It doesn’t make economic sense.
- bleepblorp 6y agoPeople who are too poor to buy things won't buy any fewer things just because they get free things. They'll just have more things that they can resell for more money, which they will likely use to buy things they actually need. Giving money--even indirectly--to poor people makes economic sense because they'll spend it on goods and services that keep other people employed. Punishing the poor out of some moral imperative is economically destructive.
- dasudasu 6y agoFrom the point of view of manufacturers not having their stuff bought, it doesn't matter if these people spend their money on other things.
- nearbuy 6y agoIt says they have a program to donate the items to charity in the US and UK, but it's not available in Canada.
- msie 6y agoAt this point I assume massive waste in every industry until proven otherwise. Massive waste in the food industry really distresses me.
- ThePhysicist 6y agoIn Germany there are companies that buy up returns by the kilogram (mostly clothes), sometimes the e-commerce companies even pay them to take the goods off their backs. They then ship them to countries like Irak, Serbia or Lebanon to prevent those perfectly goood items to "flood" the European market. That way especially clothing brands protect their inflated prices.
- baxtr 6y agoI think the alternative would be to destroy the fashion items. I prefer the method you describe. I’m not saying it’s right. It’s just how the world of fashion works.
- TheGallopedHigh 6y agoWhether right or wrong it decimates the destination country’s market place. Food for thought.
- bigwavedave 6y agoI guess I really know nothing about economics... Sincere question: how does paying less for functionally/fashionably equivalent products hurt the economy of the country that's consuming them?
- TheGallopedHigh 6y agoThe local makers of said clothing can’t compete with low prices and therefore go out of business.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoThe same detrimental effects can happen with lots of aid given to Africa. Basically, the majority of Africa is clothed with first world hand-me-downs. The result is that there is virtually no market for home-grown clothing makers in Africa. Think about it, the US has "anti-dumping" laws to protect US manufacturers, but we "dump" into other countries all the time in the form of "aid".
- neom 6y agoIt's insane to me that ONE of their returns traveled 105 miles around the city of Toronto alone.
- sradman 6y agoIt is unintuitive that an overnight package sent from Mississauga to Milton would go to Atlanta first, but that is the key insight Fred Smith had when he created FedEx. Regarding the CBC returns featured in the video, the 105 mile detour and the denim coveralls going to an electronics recycling facility support FedEx's strategy: exceptions in the normal processing workflow are error prone and expensive relative to the extra transportation costs. The assumptions underlying the criticism of Amazon's and FedEx's strategy is that landfill costs and/or transportation costs do not represent the true cost to society.
- coding123 6y agoLearning about this, I'm half-way tempted to return an empty box and donate the actual item to charity. I mean, I usually get my refund 5 minutes after the UPS guy scans the label. Do you think they do anything beyond that?
- RandomBacon 6y agoThat's still fraud, even if your heart is in the right place.
- GekkePrutser 6y agoHuh I thought these would be resold as "Amazon Warehouse" returned items. I've bought several of those and they were definitely used.
- dasudasu 6y agoAmazon disposes of it, but how much is the manufacturer involved? Who foots the bill in the end?
- sradman 6y agoNear the end of the CBC Marketplace video, they show a vendor contract and state that the vendor pays either the shipping costs to receive the returned item or the disposal cost otherwise. The reporting seems oblivious to the cost of humans making resell/reuse/repair/recycle/disposal decisions at this scale.
- canada_dry 6y agoEveryone in the chain is complicit... people who carelessly order things, suppliers who decide it's cheaper to just let Amazon handle their returns, and Amazon who is stuck dealing with returns. If we're going to fix something, it really aught to be food waste! The amount of food that gets disposed of daily - while millions go hungry - is humanities greatest issue - not unwanted coveralls.
- malcolmgreaves 6y agoHow long does it take food to decompose versus a pair of coveralls? This is one of those situations where saying "this problem isn't important, look at X," isn't the best strategy. We have to solve _waste_ in general. Different types will have different solutions.
- canada_dry 6y ago> This is one of those situations where saying "this problem isn't important, look at X," It's all about directing (our extremely limited) focus on issues with a higher priority. Food insecurity (even in North America) is a significantly bigger problem than Amazon returns.
- ummonk 6y agoA lot of food ends up in the landfill where it doesn't decompose, which is truly a waste.
- jjoonathan 6y agoSure, but just try telling hipsters that you need to put preservatives on their food to keep it good long enough to get it into the hands of the less fortunate.
- jmnicolas 6y agoWhen I called them last week, they offered to repair a faulty hard drive (clicking noises, SMART errors through the roof) ... If they try to repair an irreparable hard drive but throw perfectly good items like a bag they're quite dysfunctional. And their inability to send all the ordered items in ONE package is irritating too.
- fergie 6y agoTheres a guy on youtube who buys Amazon returns by the pallet and then sells it on. Its quite eye-opening. http://resalerabbit.com/ http://resalerabbit.com/
- pavelevst 6y agoIt could be that tracker was noticed and sent to landfill, not the item
- spcebar 6y agoA Staples by where I used to live threw anything returned away. Used to dumpster dive there and got all kinds of interesting things. Perfectly good stationary, an expensive suitcase, an office chair, a PC (which was on the of cash registers but still neat).
- mensetmanusman 6y agoWith the amount of food and goods wasted (probably approaching 50%), it’s amazing we have an economy where half the people’s effort is wasted.
- hourislate 6y agoAmazon has become an expensive place to shop for everyday items. I've found they typically don't have the best prices anymore and many of my tastes have changed over the years. They are still super useful to find those hard to get parts that would typically be impossible to find locally or at least very expensive. Like a carburetor for a chainsaw or a part for an appliance, bearings for a hood fan motor, monitor arm, etc. A lot of retailers have picked up their game when it comes to online shopping. Places like rockauto.com for auto parts are super competitive and offer a massive inventory (what a great acquisition it would be for AMZN to break into the auto parts sector). Newegg/MicroCenter for PC parts, Costco, etc. But over all I can't remember the last time I had to return anything and my experience over the last 20 years has been a positive one.
- clon 6y agoHow did they make sure that the entire backpack was returned, not just the tracker tossed?
- bpodgursky 6y agoAs someone who never, ever returns online purchases (even in the 1/100 cases where I'm genuinely unhappy with what I got), I would love the ability to shop at a 10-20% discount at an online store (or some setting on Amazon) which completely disallows returns. You buy it, you keep it. Always. Would love to stop subsidizing the indecisive, the scammers, the people who can't bother to research products before they buy, etc.
- sjg007 6y agoI think the majority of people don’t return stuff because it is such a pain to find a UPS store.
- blondie9x 6y agoAmazon prime creates bad shopping habits and Amazon needs to be responsible for the extra emissions and returns.
- kleer001 6y agoYes. In a perfect world there would be no externalities. All costs would be charged.
- cwoolfe 6y agoWhy not have the customer hold onto the return item until another customer buys it as used on amazon, and the return label ships directly to the new customer? Sure people could send unacceptable returns, but couldn't that be mitigated by losing the privilege to return in that way with amazon? It still seems better than the alternatives of throwing it away.
- rkagerer 6y agoIf you were just dealing with commodity items and trustworthy customers you might be able to get this to work. But I think in the real world it would break down quickly. First problem: When do you credit the refund? If you credit it right away, what happens if the customer subsequently loses the item? Even assuming you can simply rebill them, you've still pissed off the new purchaser who was expecting that item to be available. If you don't issue the refund until the new buyer confirms receipt (which aligns some incentives of your returner) then what happens if it takes months to sell? Defer too long and you've pissed off the old customer and effectively reneged on your return policy (not to mention forced them to store your item without compensation). Next problem: How do you apportion blame if old customer says they sent it in good condition and new customer says it arrived damaged? You have no way of knowing who's right. Do you just write it off? My gut says you'll run into more issues as you flesh this out. e.g. The "speediness" of your brand will tarnish when customers drag their heels to ship things out (sorry, I'm on vacation, will have to wait until i get back). Human nature will tempt people to "borrow" the item while they're holding onto it for you. If you thought inventory control was hard with a bunch of warehouses fully under your control, imagine what it'll be like after you crowdsource it out to a bunch of consumers. Amazon already let's you just keep low-value items that cost more to ship back than they're worth. The upside of your idea to Amazon seems small, and I see so much opportunity for abuse. If you think you can solve the challenges, maybe you can launch a decentralized inventory startup. Would be worth a ton if you do manage to get it to work.
- cwoolfe 6y agoI think you're right there would be huge challenges you mentioned. But I still think that the smarts of modern IT business-logic coupled with the scale of a company like amazon could at least do better than throwing it away in many cases. Amazon is very customer-centric company. Given the huge pain this kind of system could cause for customers is my guess why they haven't rolled-out any attempts at a solution to the general public. It's a fascinating problem to me. I've been buying/selling on eBay for 10 years. I also sell on Facebook marketplace for hard-to-ship items. I've learned that if you buy and sell used, you can essentially rent certain things for very cheap, which is a problem set and solution that has a lot in common with amazon's product return problem.
- ComodoHacker 6y agoThe pinnacle of consumerism!
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoI wonder if Amazon will pursue these folks - they ordered items intending to return them. Got to violate some terms and conditions somewhere.
- inopinatus 6y agoLet's take a moment to look at how disingenuous this article is: * Out of twelve returned trackers, one of them went to landfill. The article focuses on that item and does not itemise the fate of the others. * Adding a tracking device to a returned new product is tantamount to damage. If such a device is detected during returns processing, anyone with half a brain should immediately presume a malicious actor and have the item very carefully and securely assessed for disposal. * Did not verify that the tracking device remained within the bag. * "30-40 percent of online purchases are returned" what absolute hoopsla. I've worked in online commerce and this is off by an order of magnitude. A very few segments (e.g. shoes) may approach such return rates. This crap is why journalism is in such disrepute.
- eigenvector 6y agoI completely agree that their methodology is not robust. But Amazon also refused to state what fraction of items go to landfill, despite making subjective claims that it's "on occasion" and the "vast majority" are liquidated or resold. If that was true, Amazon would have the data to back it up and would only benefit them to say so. If we want to know the actual number of items that go to landfill, we don't need to send GPS trackers everywhere, we can just mandate Amazon (and all other companies) to report on that. It's not like they don't have the data.
- inopinatus 6y agoThat is a very reasonable public policy idea. Let's add to that list of failures: the article has no discussion of reasonable policy ideas (despite quoting researchers whose life's work is in producing them). NB: don't assume that there's no downside to any given retailer unilaterally disclosing their return rates, because returns are a measurable factor in marginal cost & revenue assessment and partially describe both the elasticity of demand and overall customer sentiment. Every retailer of scale would be interested in obtaining the return statistics (especially segmented) of their competitors; and, as the tone of the article illustrates, there are any number of hacks poised to scribble out mendacious venom on the basis of such data, so no corporate PR lackey worth their communications degree will willingly start that conversation.
- xyst 6y agoI hate to say it, but the decadence of first world countries is truly a burden on this planet.
- ummonk 6y ago> Kevin Lyons, an associate professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey who specializes in supply chain management and environmental policy, says that 30 to 40 per cent of all online purchases are sent back. That number drops to less than ten per cent for merchandise bought at bricks and mortar stores. What the hell? I rarely return either, but find myself returning online merchandise even less often than brick and mortar simply because of the inconvenience of managing packing and shipping. How are people returning 30-40% of everything they purchase online?
- bergstromm466 6y agoI made this comment in reply to another post: The important part of this article is the critique of the powerful monopolistic corporate player, Amazon: "[Amazon] did write the playbook on free returns, says Jason Goldberg, chief commerce strategy officer at Publicis Groupe, a global marketing and advertising agency. The tactic of enticing customers to buy more than they need and return what they don't want "has had tragic repercussions for the environment and business," he says." It seems to me like the HN community sometimes nitpicks over tiny details and fails to take part in the larger systemic critiques. Are there others who are also frustrated by the lack of larger, systemic critiques?