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Remington Arms Declares Bankruptcy
- throwawaysea 6y agoBefore anyone jumps to conclusions, it seems their trouble began well before COVID: > Firearms maker Remington Arms Co. filed for bankruptcy protection for the second time since 2018, weighed down by more debt than it can repay even as fearful Americans buy more guns than ever.
- redis_mlc 6y agoSame thing for Gibson Guitars, bought by KKR in 2013 and BK in 2018. Gibson Guitars was founded in 1894, but a lot of the guitars they make today don't work, and are way overpriced also. KKR renamed them to "Gibson Brands", so I guess some MBA with a PowerPoint thought related merchandise was more important than, you know, making guitars.
- joe-collins 6y agoThey... don't work? How exactly does such a straightforward physical item not work?
- qserasera 6y agoCheap materials consistently making shit music = not working
- rumanator 6y agoThere are some differences between a Stradivarius and a 30$ violin sold by Amazon, even though the 30$ violin also makes noise.
- cowboysauce 6y agoI've seen extremely cheap guitars that will noticeably fall out of tune after playing them for only a few minutes.
- pantaloony 6y agoIDK about Gibson but back in the '00s I tried someone else's brand new First Act from Walmart (or wherever, but probably there) and it'd be fair to say it didn't work. [EDIT] that is, I could play a large number of tunes such that they were recognizable and even pleasant-sounding on an ordinary cheap (say, $300-400 used or dent & ding) guitar, but was unable to do so at all on the First Act, which probably needed at least couple hundred dollars of work and parts replacement by a luthier to render it even minimally playable, let alone good-sounding. The neck definitely needed some adjustment, the frets probably needed attention (filing down, perhaps) and the tuners just needed to be replaced with ones that worked. I'm am quite certain almost no otherwise-well-motivated kid could have learned to play on that instrument. It simply did not work.
- redis_mlc 6y agoikr: - bad woodworking (factory routing and finish issues) - factory fret sprout - 2018 SG had new plastic PCB with intermittents - bad soldering
- refurb 6y agoKind of amazing for a gun company to go bankrupt when the industry is seeing record sales, even ignoring the spike with Covid.[1] [1]https://www.ft.com/content/141a70c4-1608-4013-9188-f896006796fd https://www.ft.com/content/141a70c4-1608-4013-9188-f89600679...
- manfredo 6y agoNever owned a Remington myself, but they've not been held in high regard for a while. Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital. Ultimately, though, it seem alike the company was asking customers to pay premium prices for average guns. What justifies spending 800 - 1200 dollars on a Remington 700 as compared to $500 on a Ruger American?
- komali2 6y agoSounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki?
- FPGAhacker 6y agoYou can get a Harley for $8k?
- lebaux 6y agoPlenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship: 1. More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. 2. Better and more accessible competition from around the world. 3. Influencers. I know it is cool to hate them, but there are many building a brand around "one of us". As an example, one of the most popular female youtubers is doing shopping "hauls" in regular shops. You probably don't know that, why would HN watch beauty youtubers. But consider this. Linus Tech Tips is also influence marketing and you can see him talking about Linux, cheap peripherals, bashing Intel. Every category has its Linus. These people have tremendous pull, especially since younger people don't watch TV at all. 4. COVID-19. I speculate that the pandemic exposed how many companies have no reserves (either to low profits or simple because the executives are draining profits). 5. ...and many more, feel free to add.
- ralph84 6y agoNo worries, another PE firm will come along to bail them out by issuing more debt and of course paying themselves a dividend. Rinse, repeat.
- PeterisP 6y agoWell, if the lending institutions want to take on that debt, even if it would result in it being paid out in dividend and not recoverable in a bankruptcy, that's probably their right to do so - it's the lender's money to risk as they want in hopes of profit.
- ralph84 6y agoThe biggest lending institution in the junk bond market is now the federal reserve, so traditional notions of risk and profit are out the window.
- WC3w6pXxgGd 6y agoSurprising, since lockdowns and "protests" have greatly increased the rate of gun purchasing. In my state, all firearms were out of stock at the local shops for months.
- Shared404 6y ago> "protests" Pretty sure there are in fact protests. Regardless of your view on them, which I won't get into because this is HN and not Reddit.
- refurb 6y agoI assume it's in quotes because if there were only non-violent protests, it wouldn't drive people to buy guns. Hence "protests".
- Shared404 6y agoMaybe. On the other hand, I would argue that a violent protest is still a protest, thus the need to specify non-violent.
- whammywon 6y agoSincere question: How do you differentiate between a "violent" protest and a riot? Edit: realized I accidentally typed "non-violent" as opposed to "violent".
- Shared404 6y agoI would say probably destruction of civilian property. Most of the protests could be considered as violent, due to the police shooting tear gas etc. into crowds of peaceful protest. Protests where the protesters get violent would in my mind involve A) Actual retaliation vs police, not just water bottles. or B) Destruction of government property. or C) Both. Protests where it devolves into looting private property are not protests, they are riots -- that have at least partially been caused by people who _definitely_ do not agree with the protesters. Edit: Just noticed your edit, no worries. I understood your intent fine.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoI wonder about the process here. If they filed for bankruptcy in 2018, and have to file again today in the middle of the hottest gun market in years... doesn't that mean they screwed up the first restructuring? (I guess I don't know how many of the people rushing to the store are actually buying the kind of expensive guns Remington sells, though. I'd believe a story where it's few to none.)
- momokoko 6y agoThis is just financial engineering from a private equity company. They are simply bleeding out the brand reputation for as long as they can. Same playbook as every other one. Buy a brand. Cut costs and ship all work to the cheapest labor market. Count on brand loyalty and reputation to carry sales as the quality goes down. Eventually the brand will no longer be worth much due to the lower quality product, but by then the private equity firm has made solid returns on its investment. At that point they sell off the last scraps and find another quality brand with quality products and good jobs to destroy.
- 1123581321 6y agoWhich owner of Remington are you referring to? I’m not sure I follow the theory that they experienced irrecoverable quality decline at the hands of one owner, unless you mean DuPont, and that’s hard to measure given the major changes in the retail rifle and pistol market during that time that were not favorable to Remington.
- flyingfences 6y agoCerberus Capital / Freedom Group are well-known in the gun community to have turned Remington into "Rustington".
- banku_brougham 6y agoA lawsuit by the Sandy Hook families is proceeding to discovery in CT state court.
- hellothree23 6y agoSavage 10s haven’t helped Remington much either...
- refurb 6y agoIndeed. Savage Arms has been making high quality bolt actions that cost a lot less (~50% less) than Remington...for a while.
- EdwardDiego 6y agoI've had my eye on their 110 Scout for a while.
- brodouevencode 6y agoSpeaking from experience, for hunting purposes this is a hell of a tool.
- yellowapple 6y agoCan't tell from the article (due to the paywall), but any sign that the Navajo Nation might still buy 'em? I've heard before that they want to (specifically to address rampant unemployment/poverty among tribal members).
- Animats 6y agoNo, they decided not to buy, from the full article.
- chmod600 6y agoWhat is the larger significance here? Does this mean the gun industry is struggling? Sounds unlikely given the spike in purchases. Maybe it's just another old company that once had a good reputation but has lost its way. PE probably involved. Or maybe there is some market shift. Like, fewer hunters purchasing lever actions and more urbanites buying semi-auto pistols.
- killjoywashere 6y agoProbably Cerberus trying to extract more money from government clients.
- paulie_a 6y agoHonestly no. If anything the gun industry holds a substantial bit of political power considering the average American doesn't even own a gun. Edit:. Touchy subject but it's a fact the average American doesn't own a gun. The political influence is substantial on the other hand. I'm not anti gun because it should be an inconsequential topic. It's like vegans had the big seat at the table.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoIt's definitely touchy, but I think even in abstract it's a bit misleading to say in isolation that the average American doesn't own a gun. There are areas of the country where guns are rare, but there are also many areas where they're very normalized and most households have one.
- read_if_gay_ 6y agoThere’s a town in Georgia where owning a gun is mandatory.
- paulie_a 6y agoIt's "mandstory" The same way in some town in Maryland you can't feed ducks on Sunday. Its a law that is left on the book, completely ignored and largely forgotten about
- TedDoesntTalk 6y agoTheir ammo is good, especially .22 and .22 LR. But I've never known anyone who owned one of their firearms.... which really just says it all.
- owlninja 6y agoTheir newer firearms are nothing to write home about. But my Remington 1100 20 gauge from the 70s is my favorite firearm I own.
- sswaner 6y agoShotguns being the exception, the 870 and other models are popular and reliable shotguns that many of my gun-owning friends have in their collection, as do I (two of them). And, I agree with your comment on the ammo. Have gone through many green and yellow boxes of Remington ammo. Good stuff.
- jmpman 6y agoI’m just upset Marlin was sold to Remington. The Model 39A is my favorite firearm. Once Remington took over, and they moved the factory, the quality went bad.
- m0zg 6y agoYou truly need to be shit at running your business to declare bankruptcy at a time when people are buying so many guns all the gun stores are sold out of anything decent.
- purpleidea 6y agohttps://archive.is/9rEMs https://archive.is/9rEMs
- purpleidea 6y agoFrom the article: Gun stores, which have largely stayed open during the Covid-19 pandemic, are selling to many first-time buyers worried about personal safety over the civil unrest that followed the killing of George Floyd in police custody and the ensuing movement to reduce police funding.
- qserasera 6y agoForeign weapons manufactueres declare victory once again. Russia seems to be in a military boom.
- ilstormcloud 6y agoAre they? What makes you say that? I would have assumed the CAATSA would make it very difficult to secure big budget sells.
- qserasera 6y agoIt's not very effective against places with low US economy exposure. Economics dont happen in a vacuum
- blaser-waffle 6y agoPlenty of other domestic brands to buy, Savage or Mossberg or Henry or whatever. These are bolt action deer-getters, not Pantsir S1's. And outside of a handful of countries, no one is buying Pantsirs except Algeria (and maybe Iraq, which means half of them are going to end up as NATO playthings).
- kevwil 6y agoI wouldn't disagree, overall, but it may not be that clear-cut. I heard Sig Sauer is closing a German factory and the US plant will be exporting US-made Sigs. Reminds me of the Accord I used to have, made in Ohio. Are these wins for foreign companies? I tend to think of them as domestic wins with foreign owners getting a slice off the top.
- qserasera 6y agoFor Sigs I suppose the market still exists in the US where it wouldn't in Europe.
- coolspot 6y agoYou can’t legally buy new Russian-made gun in U.S. due to sanctions.
- HelloNurse 6y agoMost comment seem to agree that Remington stopped making quality guns, with the obvious effects on profitability. When did this happen? Is it a cause or an effect of the mentioned private equity funds? Is it an Intel-like bad period on the product design and R&D front?
- snarf21 6y agoIt is private equity. I have a bunch of Thompson Center guns. I love them and found the quality to be quite good. They were then rolled up into Smith & Wessen in 2010. They cut most of their line and the quality is now shite. I wouldn't buy one anymore. So sad.
- blaser-waffle 6y agoPrivate equity, mostly. That's shorthand for corporate raiders taking over, cutting QA and other costs, trying to diversify the product lines, and banking hard on the brand to keep things going. If it worked, great, keep making that money, and if not then milk the sucker and run -- which is what we're seeing. Problem is that modern manufacturing has gotten cheaper and more effective, and offerings from China, Turkey, Japan, and other brands in the US are only getting better, while Remington stayed the same (or even declined). I think the trigger thing was more hype than reality, but why risk getting a bad one when there are so many good choices on the market that are at or below the Remington price?
- banku_brougham 6y agoIts the Sandy Hook lawsuit in CT. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730
- chrisjarvis 6y agometapost: this is the first gun related thread I've seen on the front page, I wish it happened more often. Similarly I always get excited when I see a gardening related thread, I like reading HN perspective on "non/low-tech" hobbies.
- jonahbenton 6y agoAm sure this will be downvoted but just commenting that I find discussion in these threads fascinating, terrifying, fundamentally foreign. Having lived in large cities all my life I cannot conceive of owning a gun, or of other nearby city dwellers owning guns, or even being allowed to in a non law enforcement capacity. There are apartments in NYC with working fireplaces- seems almost equally insane to me, though gun more so because of the active harm it can induce. Please- no disrepect intended, and not interested in starting argument/debate. Know all the arguments and the history and not advocating any position. Just sharing experience, my own lack of slots for this very large component of american life. Cheers folks.
- saas_sam 6y agoFor those of us who grew up around guns, your abject horror at an object is as puzzling as someone being terrified of knives or slingshots. Would be nice if cops were all good and could teleport to your location in time of need. Drive an hour outside your city of choice and that ain't gonna happen. Just sharing my own experience, cheers.
- jonahbenton 6y agoYup, totally get it. Big mental shift. Thank you.
- srmatto 6y agoIs your direct experience that you have actually held/brandished/used a firearm during an event when you were physically threatened? Or is this strictly theoretical?
- saas_sam 6y agoMy parents did while my house was being broken into one night by multiple men. Semi-rural area. Thankfully they left before anything happened. I have close friends with darker stories.
- jm4 6y agoI have. A couple guys came into the house late at night while I was in bed. I was upstairs and they were downstairs. I didn't have a means to escape. Cops can't help in that situation. I confronted them at the stairs and the whole thing de-escalated very quickly. Nobody got hurt. As far as someone sneaking into your house while you sleep, it was pretty much a best case scenario.
- dsparkman 6y agoIf a business is purchased by a private equity company, it is not long for this world. Private equity is all about strip mining a business.
- atwebb 6y agoHilton went private as the last (big) deal before the 08 recession, went public again 5 years later...
- awillen 6y agoThis grossly (and incorrectly) oversimplifies an enormous industry with a number of different approaches. Some PE firms absolutely strip the assets out of businesses and maximize their short term profits, while others buy and hold for the long term and others add value to companies they buy then sell them or take them public. I hate the whole "PE is evil" attitude from people who don't understand it. Often there are headlines about how a PE firm has taken a firm over and fired hundreds or thousands of people, and the connotation is very much that they are evil and greedy for profit at the expense of people's livelihoods, while the reality is the business in its current form was going to fail and take everyone's job with it, and it was necessary to cut jobs in order to save the business (and thus save the jobs that remain). I know the industry is an easy target because it's a bunch of rich guys and some of them are definitely greedy profiteers, but it's just unhelpful to label the whole industry based on those. If you go by that logic then the whole tech industry is very much evil because it exploits cheap labor (Uber, DoorDash, etc.).
- antihero 6y ago> If you go by that logic then the whole tech industry is very much evil because it exploits cheap labor (Uber, DoorDash, etc.). I mean, a lot of the tech industry really is just focused on extracting value from other people's labour, or replacing them altogether.
- awillen 6y agoI mean that's a lot of most industries in a capitalist system (at least the extraction of value from labor).
- throwawaymanbot 6y agoPrivate Equity takes another scalp.
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- crawsome 6y agoFor the second time since 2018
- B9_p 6y agoI have to add this little thought to the thread. I was in the U.K. recently. I was forced to quarantine in a hotel there for two weeks. And naturally while I was in the U.K. I was thinking about the usual political and cultural topics, including gun control and the stabbing problem. I was watching a huge amount of British television due to being stuck inside this room, and I ended up watching a lot of the British equivalent of “cops.” I saw a criminal getting apprehended and it was the most amazing thing: there were two male officers grappling with a man, trying to arrest him. They got him on the ground and the one cop was on top of him, screaming. His hands wandered around on the suspects body and he seemed to jump up and down on top of him like a small baby pretending to be a doggy. He was also quite chubby so the similarity was difficult to escape. There were no arm bars, choke holds, no kind of decisive movement or action whatsoever on the part of the police. This cop could not grapple his way out of a wet paper bag. That’s when it hit me. How incredibly deeply different the US and U.K. are. That’s when I realized why there are so few guns in the U.K. prohibition doesn’t work right? But it works with guns? No, the hidden answer is that there is no demand for guns in the U.K.! People in the U.K. are physically weak and feeble. The cops can’t even put you in a proper hold. They flail about... there is simply no need for a gun in the U.K. because a knife works just as well. It intimidates just as much. It kills a feeble Brit just as well as a gun. Plus, people in the U.K. probably couldn’t even fire a gun properly. A Brit probably couldn’t even tell a BB gun from a rifle... In the hands of a Brit, a knife is probably way more deadly than a gun. The reason why there aren’t so many guns is because there simply is no use for them.
- celticninja 6y agoThis is possibly the lowest quality comment I have ever seen on HN.
- B9_p 6y agoOh really? Was it the logical soundness of the comment? Or the quality of writing? Oh I see that you are actually from the U.K. I’m sorry for calling you feeble.
- banku_brougham 6y agoA law professor, Heidi Feldman, points out that >With bankruptcy, Remington means to halt the Sandy Hook litigation from continuing in Connecticut state court.Notable timing, it comes after a series of decisions by the trial judge refusing to let Remington dodge discovery.
- hajile 6y agoNo harm done here. That case was stupid on all counts and just an excuse to try to dredge up some bad PR during investigation. The mom -- not the shooter -- bought the guns, so the advertising aspect is dumb in that regard let alone that the reputation of the weapon isn't set by Remington in any significant way. Next, Remington sells to dealers. If anyone was "selling" someone on a Remington, it was the gun dealer (if you're already going to the store, you've already been sold on the idea of a gun and are just negotiating the details). There has to be better ways to use a judges time (even better cases involving guns and gun manufacturers).
- non-entity 6y agoAre there any other industries/ cases where the manufacturer is liable for damage due to misuse by the consumer? It seems something like this is weak to begin with.
- hajile 6y agoPeople have been filmed running over other people congregating in the street. Can those other people sue the car manufacturer? Working as intended, but still sued was quite the bizarre position to be supported by a judge.