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US Secret Service: “Massive Fraud” Against State Unemployment Insurance Programs

676 points by elsewhen 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TeaDrunk 6y ago
I’m surprised banks literally don’t have the ability check for suspicious behavior like blatantly having the same account receive multiple unemployment benefit dollars from a state that the person doesn’t reside in...
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  That’s not the bank’s responsibility. This is no different than the issues IRS faced with fraudulent refund activity. Unemployment systems should’ve invested in KYC-like systems, knowledge authentication, etc. Simply look at the talent running unemployment departments though. No engineering mindset, no accountability, hence financial fraud with no repercussions for government or perpetrators. For the love of Vint Cerf, please get involved in local government if you’re a technologist. It is the only way this gets better.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Doesn't it kind of become the bank's responsibility once they become aware they're holding onto criminal proceeds? Or is that why banks prefer not to pay attention, so they don't become aware of such things?
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Most technologists likely have an aversion to anything as backwater bureaucratic as government “tech” programs. Couple that with pay that wildly trails the market and the outcome is fairly easy to predict I think.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      What if the resulting code was open source and someone paid for the effort out of their own pocket. Non profit 18F style. Might even be able to distill requirements from existing code if that code can be retrieved with a FOIA request. I can empathize with not wanting to work directly for the bureaucracy. There are alternate paths to success. https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Interesting idea! I don’t know how to think about the threat model of “pay for it yourself, and then the government will run your code for essential services”. I suspect there’s a juicy target there, but it’s something I hadn’t considered so thanks for giving me something to mull about.
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        An independent application security assessment would need to be performed prior to handoff of the code base (with follow ups each time you cut a new release), but if you can meet the requirements of all 50 states (not trivial, but also likely not overly onerous), that’s a huge reduction in duplicated effort. Glad I could provide something to ponder!
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      I don't know about the US, but I had the same misconception in Brazil until I ended up training government employees. What I encountered was an extremely motivated and intelligent crowd that, even though they were underpaid, were motivated by a desire to make things work. It stuck with me that, while some companies had the best talent money could buy, these agencies had the best people no money would ever buy. Besides, even a small government deals with amounts of data that rival larger enterprises.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    Well, no. I wish that was the case but no. You would be surprised how invasive BSA law is. The main reason banks basically gave in on SARs was the legal protection they have for it. This coupled with little average teller is trained results with suspicious activity report stemming from customer saying 'none of your business' to a teller. And I assure you that when auditors ask an officer question why SAR was not filed ( most recent Moneygram case ), BSA officer is sweating bullet. So based on current setup in US, it is banks' responsibilty. And just to add to this, this scheme is being actively copied across the world. FinCEN case link: https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-assesses-1-million-penalty-and-seeks-bar-former-moneygram-executive https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-assesses-1-...
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I think we might be taking past each other. A bank and money transmitters are required to meet AML and KYC requirements (in this case, making sure the illicitly obtained funds aren’t laundered with mules or other means), but I propose that it’s the state unemployment insurance department’s responsibility to put benefits into the right deposit accounts in the first place.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
        My bad. I completely misread your post. I never thought of that to be honest. My first reaction is hesitation, but it is mostly, because I am not sure how that would work in practice.
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        My Citibank credit card pulls in my Chase deposit account details using my Chase login and password (I assume using Plaid under the hood). Perhaps something similar between unemployment systems and your bank, as the bank has already done all of the hard KYC work. They’ve got your PII (including SSN), and your account numbers. Use SSN as the key (I know, I know, we need to get away from the SSN as a citizen ID, baby steps) between the two. You also get to piggyback on 2FA/MFA systems banks have in place.
  - apta 6y ago
    Why is it so hard to enforce banks to report such transactions? Doesn't the US force foreign banks to report balances of US citizens residing overseas? Oh the double standards.
    - briandear 6y ago
      FATCA is an injustice of epic proportions. You can thank the US government of 2010 for that hypocrisy. It was used by the left as a way to “get” “fat cats” — it’s literally in the name: FATCA(ts.) Chuck Schumer was a highly vocal proponent. Instead it harms everyone overseas while for actual fat cats, it has been business mostly as usual.
      - kyboren 6y ago
        I suspect you're being downvoted by US citizens who have never lived abroad and are blind to the difficulties FATCA causes for non-"Fat Cat" American expats. Your comment is entirely on-point.
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        Could you expand on that: how does it is cause harm, why aren't overseas "fat cats" affected?
        apta 6y ago
        One reason is that it causes the cost to be borne by those overseas bank, just to address the incompetencies of the US government and the bizarre law to tax its citizens living overseas, which I think only one or two countries do.
        kyboren 6y ago
        It causes harm to American expats because FATCA's terms are horrible for banks. Basically, they have a whole host of new reporting obligations for their US citizen customers, wherever they are in the world. If their compliance fails, their US operations will be subject to a 30% withholding tax on all transactions. American citizens are the rare exception for banks outside the US and the compliance costs and huge operational risks make it very unattractive to accept US citizen clients. It is very difficult to find a bank willing to take them on as a customer, and those that do often put restrictions on their accounts. Fat cat expats are relatively unaffected because they can afford to set up all kinds of complicated legal structures, companies, trusts, etc. to skirt the law and anyway have enough money that even with increased compliance costs they are still worth keeping as customers. Finally, in general, US tax law regarding foreign earned income is completely absurd and nearly unique in the world, and direct compliance costs on expat Americans--for example, FBAR requirements--are equally absurd. I believe this is a result of the structural disenfranchisement of expats in the American political system. Expats vote where they last resided, so lots of places might have 0.5% expat voters, but no one place has 100% expat voters. So no politician has any incentive to represent expat interests.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    Why would throwing innocent bodies at a problem solve it? You solve systemic problems with systemic solutions. Do you know what comes after a 'democracy' aka 'freedom' run amock? A violent dictator. Your efforts should be put towards determining which violent dictator gets into power, not wishful thinking that you can fix corruption and incompetence without killing people and ruining lives. Remember how Trump said he'd 'drain the swamp'? He's a worthless coward and a hack who got elected pretending to be a dictator. USA was ready for a dictator, they voted for one and instead got a reality tv host. Do you see where things are headed? You can play a part in choosing a violent dictator, or in trying to sustain living in a cellpool (Hillary, Biden, etc). Even hillbillies are ready for a dictator without knowing it, as it always happens, so you're in a bit of trouble. That's how the real world works, sorry. On the upside - this shit democracy can probably sustain corruption and incompetence almost indefinitely, because most people are fine living in a cesspool. If anyone tries to drain the cesspool, you can assassinate them in broad daylight and create a tourist attraction around a fictional shooter afterwards. Oh, and throw innocent bodies at problems like you suggest. Send kids to die in worthless wars, send kids to waste their life doing finance, send the brightest kids into companies doing 1984 surveillance and serving double-think, etc, etc, etc. For most people, power only coming with responsibility is an abstraction they can't comprehend - they buy lottery tickets, worship worthless, rich (powerful in their tiny little brains) hacks like actors, the Kardashians, rappers talking about 'bitches' and being criminals etc precisely because their world only includes one half of a proper-functioning society - power. That selfish me-me-me, more for me half :) Responsibility is something they do their best to avoid - they dream of escaping it altogether.
    - tenebrisalietum 6y ago
      So how to do fix this and make people want responsibility? The only answer people seem to have is that children must be brought up better/parents must be better at raising their children, but this seems to require people who already want responsibility-first-power-second to be effective.
      - alexashka 6y ago
        This was the naive communism idea, that you can mold people into any shape you desire with enough education, propaganda and other forms of societal pressure. There is science that tells us otherwise. If you're a midget, you cannot ever be successful in the NBA. People's brain regions vary up to 10x in size and some people have regions that are completely absent in others, oops. Some people can see 10x more colors than others. Some people can do mathematics, most can't. Sorry. Ok so we have people with vastly different abilities, people are not equal. What do we do with this information? We need to figure out who has which abilities. How do you do that? You scan their brains :) Now what happens when we find out half the billionaires have tiny worthless brains and got lucky (every Russian billionaire as one simple example)? What happens when rich people have idiot children who are only good for serving coffee? There lies the rub - you have to want power-responsibility ratio to match ability, more than you want your offspring to have power regardless of their ability to handle responsibility. You have to fix corruption on the level of enabling idiot family members because they're yours. You have to fix enabling your friends because they're your friends. You have to understand that an idiot would be better off serving coffee more than going to a top university, cheating their way through it and being a worthless manager with a high paycheque. You have to not be an idiot to understand these things. How do we have more non-idiots? One easy way is to monitor who has children. Ohh but freedom I can do what I want with my body?! That's your selfish idiot brain talking that doesn't take responsibility into account. See how deep this goes? Every facet of modern society ignores responsibility. The fix starts with people like me talking about it and being treated with downvotes from the idiot masses :) ps. If you want a more thorough treatment of responsibility and how important it is, I've heard good things about Jordan Peterson.
  - nodesocket 6y ago
    Banks already have responsibility to prevent money laundering by submitting a form when you deposit over $10k in cash, it’s called a currency transaction report and sent to the IRS.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I'd put it as much on the state. From the bank's perspective it's just an ACH transfer. The state knows what it's for and is arguably in a better position to detect anomalies. And the state should be doing better due diligence to verify identities and eligibility.
  - aswanson 6y ago
    States are processing claims in cobol on mainframes from the 1970s. I think you overestimate their data science ops.
    - DataWorker 6y ago
      They were wiring large amounts of money to people in Oklahoma rather than their own state. That there is no effort put into preventing fraud, which was guaranteed to happen, is down to negligence of the state government. Part of that is on the voters who allocate tax dollars in an idiotic fashion whenever given the chance.
      - akiselev 6y ago
        There are plenty of cases where someone would be paid unemployment insurance out of state. The most common one is moving back to be closer to a family support network after losing a job since many people don't have much in the way of savings, at least not enough for a few months rent while they look for work. In most states, unemployment insurance is paid for by employers per worker and after paying in for a certain time, the UI program essentially owes the unemployment benefits to the worker once they lose their job. Where that worker chooses to go with their checks is up to them.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    Banks already have fraud protection on credit cards and are responsible for reporting suspicious amounts of depositing (above a certain amount). Thus is the basis of my shock that something similarly obvious isn’t covered.
- spacephysics 6y ago
  I agree, but I hope such analysis requires a warrant or just cause - instead of having banks check their customers activity, it should come from the other side, institutions that send the money out perform a cross-reference for the same person (whether defined by name, account, etc). Then the issue is some people are working, but under the table, and collecting benefits. That’s a bit harder to detect
- elliekelly 6y ago
  Banks absolutely do have this ability and I would guess SARs from banks are what led to the Secret Service eventually uncovering this elaborate scheme. Though I imagine more SARs would have come from the outgoing transfers (from the mules’ accounts to the criminals) than from the suspicious unemployment deposits. Generally government money is considered “clean” but if a mule suddenly started receiving more money than usual it would be investigated regardless of the source.
12xo 6y ago
I find it ridiculous that you cannot buy pseudoephedrine without the pharmacy checking whether you've purchased any quantity of the OTC medicine in any other state via a inter-agency, multi-state networked solution... And yet this kind of stuff still exists. There is more than enough way to solve these problems, but for some f'n reason there is no will...
- buildbot 6y ago
  Probably not not helpful, but meanwhile just a little bit north in Canada they sell excellent otc allergy medicine with pseudofed. Just wild what we choose to prohibit.
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    Meanwhile banning coffee roasts and pieces of outerwear because they sound vaguely like the name of scary-looking guns. I feel like there's just so much in the state now, we need mandatory sunset on anything like this. Review of legislation and rules/regulation should be routine, rather than boutique, and each time we should be called upon to make a positive case for each rule.
    - lisper 6y ago
      > banning coffee roasts and pieces of outerwear because they sound vaguely like the name of scary-looking guns. Huh??? Reference?
      - afturner 6y ago
        Looks like it was a mistake: https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-ban-some-coffee-a-website-and-a-toy-heres-why https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-b...
      - microcolonel 6y ago
        Okay okay, technically it didn't apply since there was no authority, though it shows the haste involved in producing the list. It also appeared to include a plastic toy-grade BB gun, because a PMC once imprinted a similar name on a private batch of firearms that were never sold or imported into Canada. Furthermore, apparently the firearm used in the shooting that prompted this sweeping ban was never sold on the Canadian market. It was illegally purchased, illegally smuggled into Canada, and you know, illegally discharged to kill people. There is no connection between the Canadian domestic market for semi-automatic rifles and the shooting, and yet the resultant rules target only the Canadian domestic market for semi-automatic rifles. https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-ban-some-coffee-a-website-and-a-toy-heres-why https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-b...
lgleason 6y ago
Not surprising given the creaky state un-employment systems. I would not be surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well.
- irishcoffee 6y ago
  The bank account numbers on a personal check or the one you give your employer for direct deposit?
  - xur17 6y ago
    Aren't those the same?
    - pmorici 6y ago
      Yes
      - irishcoffee 6y ago
        Heh welp pardon me for having more than one bank account
- CodeWriter23 6y ago
  > I would not be surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well. I don't that works too well for this kind of scam. What do you do with the money? ACH it to a totally traceable other account? This scam relies on a network of trust, that the mules will draw out the cash and take their cut (and only their cut) and walk the funds to another location for tender.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    That’s what I don’t understand about this kind of scam. It seems like an awful lot of work. Juggling all of your fake internet significant others or employees and then building up enough trust to make the ask. I can’t imagine the payout is that substantial given how much effort would be required.
Fiveplus 6y ago
This is a repost. @dang
- gus_massa 6y ago
  I only see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237 but it has only 3 points. From the FAQ: > Are reposts ok? > When a story has had significant attention in the last year or so, we bury reposts as duplicates. If not, a small number of reposts is ok.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  That's allowed. And 'at'ing people here does nothing as far as I know.
jld 6y ago
I got a letter yesterday informing me I made an unemployment claim. Bummer.
kryogen1c 6y ago
remember when SSNs were being implemented and the government promised it wouldn't be used as a personal identifier?
- iaresee 6y ago
  I've only been in the USA for less than a decade but when I landed here and got my SSN I got a pretty good lecture at the window from the Federal worker about never giving this out, keep it safe, yadda, yadda, yadda... ...and was then asked at every turn, by every website and application and whatnot, to provide four or more digits of this number to accomplish even the most benign things. There's what the US government thought it would be and then there's what it's become because zero enforcement on use of it as a national person identity number was ever enacted. The "don't give anyone your SSN" trope has become one of those household jokes. Right up there with "American's don't pay high taxes".
  - jniedrauer 6y ago
    And those 4 numbers that they always ask for are the only part of the SSN that isn't procedurally generated from public information.
    - Mindless2112 6y ago
      This isn't true anymore. (Although for most adults, it doesn't matter as they got their SSN before it changed.) > On June 25, 2011, the SSA changed the SSN assignment process to "SSN randomization". SSN randomization affected the SSN assignment process in the following ways: > 1. It eliminated the geographical significance of the first three digits of the SSN, referred to as the area number, by no longer allocating specific numbers by state for assignment to individuals. > 2. It eliminated the significance of the highest group number assigned for each area number, and, as a result, the High Group List is frozen in time and can be used for validation of only those SSNs issued prior to the randomization implementation date (see section "Valid SSNs"). > 3. Previously unassigned area numbers have been introduced for assignment, excluding area numbers 000, 666 and 900–999. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structu...
dilandau 6y ago
Who would have thought that dumping trillions of stimulus into the hands of the unemployed would attract scammers? State unemployment offices just aren't equipped for this kind of activity. Politicians want to do anything they can right now to be seen to be "helping" -- to do otherwise is political suicide -- so we get these insane stimulus bills. A common thing I hear is that people don't want to return to work because they make more sitting at home, stealing from taxpayers. Are they scammers, too? I think so.
- mdszy 6y ago
  The classism in this comment is thick enough to cut with a knife but anyway. Can you not see how the problem here is clearly not with the unemployed folks, but with the fact that they're unable to make a living wage by actually working?
- maximente 6y ago
  actually, paying people more in unemployment than they made working is great public health policy for maintaining quarantine, aligning financial incentives with desired behavior. quite shocking that the US government managed to get it done.
- DataWorker 6y ago
  The point was exactly that, to keep low wage people from going back to work. They set the rates higher to disincentivize people going back to work. Don’t blame people for responding to public policy the way they’re intended to respond, blame the policy. (Also it comes across as petty and ignorant to blame the working poor for their plight. With wealth comes poverty.)
- vangelis 6y ago
  Honestly, if people hadn't prepared for an unexpected pandemic that tanked the economy, they have only themselves to blame!
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  I suspect this is overwrought. Anecdotal, but I recently got a chuckle out of this article[0] in the San Diego paper. While there was much hand wringing from business owners about how their workers wouldn't come back for their previous wages, when you investigate, workers want to return to their jobs even for less money. Honestly, it seems like not a big deal. Business owners are fearful, perhaps because they will have to compete on wages to re-hire some workers. But it does sound like workers want to return to work, and this whole "unemployment pays more so why work?" schtick is a big nothingburger. [0] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/economy/story/2020-05-03/some-san-diegans-can-earn-more-on-unemployment-why-go-back-to-work https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/economy/story/...
ValCanBuild 6y ago
Same thing is happening with the UK furlough scheme. Government is paying 80% of people's salaries while they're off work but some employers are actively defrauding the scheme and telling those people to work...
yalogin 6y ago
I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for it. This is sort of thing that the federal government should do and provide a portal for each state to use so that they can track and do stuff across states to look for fraud. However i don’t know if states rights and separation of duties screws this up.
- mistrial9 6y ago
  people in business in the USA hire outsiders to do the dirty work, or afterwards such relationship leaks the details provided, to others who are just willing.. Why is USA federal IT work outsourced three times before it is done? What USA business owners, former owners, their accountants and others, are just in it for the money and tired of others winning while they work so hard and lose, etc.. SO .. there is some collusion across borders, most likely
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. Is it a hard thing to understand or is it just something that doesn't get done? I work for a municipal government (not in social assistance though). Very little is documented, not because it would be hard to do so, but because first everything from budget to approved software for documentation to time allocation to 5 different approvals would be required to do it. We are terrible at sharing information internally, so every thing would require meeting after meeting to chase down who knows what as well. Actually documenting the system I work on would take 1-2 days. But we initiated an overarching documentation plan in November and it is still being worked on (if it has not died from neglect).
- avianlyric 6y ago
  > I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. It’s quite literally a criminals job to understand and abuse these systems, and there’s very clear link between their performance and their reward. Makes for a good motivator. People frequently underestimate criminals because they don’t appreciate that these individuals are doing this work as full time job. I’m sure if you spent 8 hours a day for week, you’ll have an equally good understanding.
ipnon 6y ago
My friend's desperately needed unemployment funds are frozen because they were requested using a Romanian IP address. My friend has never been to Romania nor spoofed their IP in such a manner. The New York state unemployment website seemingly allows no recourse for this incident. They are now unemployed and unable to receive any income.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  The recourse as I understand it is to try and call the agency to speak to a person. Of course the call systems are overloaded so that's easier said than done. edit: This is the general approach by US agencies, the IRS website barfed on my info and I had to call a local office to get a person to help me (the nation wide number was 100% automated and likewise barfed on my info).
  - trynewideas 6y ago
    Good luck: https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/04/oregon-insight-hours-and-hours-on-hold-with-the-employment-department.html https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/04/oregon-insight-h... > Laid-off workers are confused and confounded by the department’s faltering claims system, erroneous denials and stubborn silence on key policies and questions. > The frustrations lead people to call the department again and again – some say they dial more than 700 times a day. > The employment department is taking steps to address the call volume. It has added hundreds of staff to process claims in recent weeks – it has 520 now and has leased a facility in Wilsonville to expand claims staff to 800. > With jobless claims up nearly seventeenfold, though, the staffing increases aren’t close to keeping up with demand. So it may be weeks – or months – before Oregon works through its backlog in claims questions.
  - ken 6y ago
    Calling the unemployment office right now is virtually impossible. Conventional wisdom these days is that if you want to collect unemployment, you need to make filing a claim your full-time job. You start calling at 7am when they open, and keep re-dialing until you get through -- hopefully before they close at 4pm, and you have to start again the next day. Also, don't call before Wednesday, if you don't absolutely need to. Monday/Tuesday are unofficially reserved for people who really need the money. Of course, even if you get through to a person and get the right bit flipped in their database, there's no guarantees. I also hear lots of stories of people whose claims were approved 4 or 6 weeks ago and still haven't gotten a dime.
icegreentea2 6y ago
I wonder what the rate/total volume (or detected volume) of fraud is? How does it compare to baseline levels of fraud? The article says the amount of fraud has kept pace with dramatic increase in claims in Rhode Island. If it's just keeping pace, why are we surprised? Do we even need to worry that much? Is the current situation making it easier to commit fraud? Or is it just generating more volume and noise to hide fraud in?
llarsson 6y ago
Well, if I am employed in one state, that means I am unemployed in almost 49 others, doesn't it? Time to fill out some paperwork! For certain things, this perhaps one of them, there are benefits if handled on a federal level with more oversight.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  You wouldn't need to handle it centrally, you could do something like log all "single-state" transactions against a name, SSN, & bank account, and publish to reach of the other states your data -- preferably through a federal data store, but it could still work otherwise?
- unishark 6y ago
  Is that all it takes to get unemployment now? Just an application and they take your word for it? I thought you needed to get legitimately laid off (i.e. not quit or be fired for cause) by an employer in the state who notifies the state of this fact for you, and perhaps who has to pay part of your benefits. And there's always both upsides as well as downsides to handling things federally versus state.
bpodgursky 6y ago
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, given that two days ago someone in Michigan attempted to use my wife's info + email to get unemployment benefits. We live in Seattle, never lived in Michigan. Managed to file a fraud claim in this case, but only because they happened to use her email address for some reason.
feross 6y ago
Duplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553
bluedino 6y ago
This pairs well with the high amount of income tax return fraud. Basically, someone files your taxes for you and steals your refund check.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  That explains why I see so many "volunteer" tax preparers on various sites.
canada_dry 6y ago
In context of how much "personal identifiable information" (e.g. SSN) that is stolen through data breaches in the USA - it's hardly a surprise. The list of breaches just goes on-and-on: https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-breaches/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-breaches/
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > that is stolen Or just straight up sold by the government: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20438289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20438289.
  - canada_dry 6y ago
    ... or collected by state prison call centers and misused (though admittedly this would be a minute fraction in comparison). https://www.cio.com/article/2417888/prison-labor--outsourcing-s--best-kept-secret-.html https://www.cio.com/article/2417888/prison-labor--outsourcin...
- asciident 6y ago
  I think it's time we just eliminated the concept of personally identifiable information (PII). Your SSN, birthdate, name, etc. are no longer secret. Operate with that assumption. Invest in a department in the government (e.g. digital service) to make this change once and for all. Heck, let's eliminate DST and move to the metric system while we're at it. Let's call this "moving to new standards" that will pay off in dividends in the future.
  - sp332 6y ago
    Why would a bank give someone a loan if they have no idea who the person really is?
    - ferongr 6y ago
      ID cards?
    - 6y ago
bradleyjg 6y ago
Gee I sure am glad hard working class action lawyers were able to secure me “highly valuable” credit monitoring services after corporate negligence allowed my sensitive information to be stolen.
mostlyjason 6y ago
It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. They just accept a social security number as if it was some sort of password, when it was never intended for that purpose. Other countries give citizens an electronic ID to authenticate themselves. It seems this would prevent hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud and identity theft.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. Vast numbers of Americans would view that as a big step towards totalitarianism and taking their guns away.
  - dboreham 6y ago
    Except if its about voting and then any amount of intrusion is fine.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      Many of them quite literally want voting licenses.
    - newfriend 6y ago
      And on the flip side, any amount of intrusion is fine, unless it's about voting.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - otterley 6y ago
        Voting is a much more important right than the other rights, because voting is fundamental to the existence of a republic. One could argue that the right to bear arms exists for the primary purpose of protecting the right to vote.
mdturnerphys 6y ago
. . . a substantial amount of the fraudulent benefits submitted have used PII from first responders, government personnel and school employees. Seems like this should have generated some red flags, as public sector employees haven't been subject to layoffs.
- haram_masala 6y ago
  Makes you wonder if the infamous OPM breach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...) has been distributed beyond China.
  - kyuudou 6y ago
    No wondering, I just assume that's the case. Like, whatever the Chinese equivalents of 4chan and pastebin are would be in constant discussion over the best ways to exploit that information. OPM is a big umbrella over the US Federal Govt. They even got biometric data in the form of fingerprints. There are certainly worse things to breach but it's basically HR for the US gov't. Imagine your company's HR dept getting totally owned, then people using the CFO's data to get large loans, make harmful business deals or blackwash someone high-profile.
macinjosh 6y ago
More like massive fraud against tax payers. The State is part of the problem here, not a victim. Glad the money I earn by laboring is being taken from me (without consent) and literally handed over to criminals. Edit: I see some of you just down vote what you don't agree with. That is OK it doesn't make me wrong. The state is complicit here in funneling tax payer money to fraudsters due to their own incompetence. This money is being taken out of the hands of those these programs are for. Anyway, I'll stop making you uncomfortable with the truth now.
tehjoker 6y ago
Keep in mind the fraud is in the hundreds of millions and the size of the program is in the hundreds of billions ($260B from the CARES act alone: https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-provisions-coronavirus-aid-relief-economic-security-cares-act/ https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-prov...)
- brentonator 6y ago
  I'll use the food stamps argument: All I see is millions and regardless of how insignificant that number is with regard to how many the program has helped, I'm going to argue the whole program should be shut down because my party says so and uphill bootstraps. If it's 200M of fraud that's less than a percent. I don't think you can safely say less than 1% of Americans have had their identities stolen so they've done a hell of a job if you ask me.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
People should look at this as a business opportunity. Look, states are losing tens of millions of dollars a year in fraud. I bet they would pay many millions to prevent it with smart data analysis and red flagging...
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  But it will be outsourced to some bullshit consultancy that will take 10x the initial budget and end up not delivering anything.
  - asciident 6y ago
    True, but part of this higher cost would also be to handle all the "requirements" from the government from years of accumulated desires from the people (accountability, supporting minority owners, prioritizing US suppliers, hiring veterans and the disabled, reporting sexual harassment, etc.). In the end, it's all one big cycle with each part blaming another, when in reality this is roughly the best we can do with a system where everyone acts in their own self interests and agency. In such a system, doing anything takes a lot of time and money. Look at extending subway lines in NYC. The unions, negotiations with property owners, environmental regulations, etc. also impose a major cost and roadblock. Not saying these are bad things to support, as we do want those things, but we should recognize that each of these requirements reduces efficiency (probably exponentially).
chrischen 6y ago
That’s funny because my dad has been struggling to get unemployment due to state bureaucracy (he was working remotely for a company in another state, which complicates the filing). I guess the same bureaucracy is probably what enables the fraud.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  If you pay taxes in the state, shouldn’t it be enough?
  - chrischen 6y ago
    Yes he is entitled to it. The problem was that it was unclear which state he was supposed to file in (because he works remotely out of state), and one state's department just said to go to the other state.
raverbashing 6y ago
The ironic part of this is the spam comment (that was not removed from there on purpose) and most likely is one gear of this fraud system
pnw_hazor 6y ago
The true scope of the fraud will come clear when IRS starts coming after the named beneficiaries of the fraudulent disbursements. In WA state (not sure about other states), the unemployment insurance agency does not automatically withhold taxes from disbursement checks. (It is an option the beneficiary can choose). The IRS will come looking for those taxes.
cgb223 6y ago
Wow Nigerian Scammers have really kicked it up a notch since the “Prince of Nigeria” days
fortran77 6y ago
Every time our Government wants to help people with cash payouts, there's always massive fraud. You'd think they'd learn.
scroot 6y ago
It's almost like decades of governance by people who say government is the problem leads to ... inept governing ...
relativitypro 6y ago
I guess the equitax data breach will lead to real consequences. Just not for equifax.
ItsAlwaysMe 6y ago
I received a letter on May 8th telling me that I applied for unemployment benefits... but of course I did not. I am also in WA state. I filed a fraud report, so we'll see how it goes. So incredibly frustrating...
- finnh 6y ago
  Me too, I just got one (although it wasn't saying I applied, it was just referring to my "claim #" and telling me about a retraining opportunity). Where did you file your fraud report? I've been meaning to but haven't figured out where to call yet.
  - ItsAlwaysMe 6y ago
    I had the same opportunity letter, something about entrepreneurship but also referenced a claim number. Here's the link: https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-fraud https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-fraud
    - finnh 6y ago
      (thanks - once I typed my comment I thought "hmm I bet I can just _find_ that form" and lo! it was findable). Considering whether to also send a paper letter, as those still seem to be "more official" and the state ESD IT systems are clearly a bag of frowns. It's good luck that the entrepeneurship letter-sending program actually works off my real home address, not whatever the scammers may have input. I certainly didn't receive any other letters from the state regarding my "claim".
hilyen 6y ago
If only we saw this coming.... oh wait... Equifax's data breach of 143M records. People have been calling for social security number system to be updated. In what world does it make sense to prove your identity with just a username (ss #) and not a password as well?
joncrane 6y ago
Interesting that it's the banks that are catching this. I know we trash banks, and they do some terrible things to customers, but they have become important partners in fighting financial crime including AML (Anti Money Laundering) and other crimes. I'm sure some banks are using ML to detect anomalous transactions, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or more ML models are what first flagged this activity as suspicious.
williesleg 6y ago
Keep putting moms at playgrounds in jail.
WalterBright 6y ago
I'm not surprised this is happening in Washington State. Here the voter registration requirements are writing a name on a piece of paper, here's your ballot. But no voter fraud is ever detected. Hmmm.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Source for voter fraud happening at a meaningful level in WA?
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    When no verification is done, how can fraud even be detected?
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      So you have no evidence of it happening then? And we're just supposed to assume by default that it's happening even though you can't provide any proof?
- WaxProlix 6y ago
  This has nothing to do with voter fraud, and how easy or hard it is to register to vote doesn't seem to bear on the topic.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    When they send out ballots with literally zero checking to see if the recipient is an actual person, that sounds a lot like what is happening with the unemployment benefits.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
memset 6y ago
Interestingly, there is exactly one top-level comment right now on HN. (Now there are two.) That comment, and the ensuing thread is about buying pseudoephedrine. How does this relate to fraudulent unemployment insurance claims?
- billme 6y ago
  No, there is not just one top-level comment. Minimize that comment, then click “more” to see additional top-level comments. As for the comment you commented on, that comment would be better placed as a child comment, but it’s about interstate commutation issues, which clearly relates to the topic.
finneganscat 6y ago
This sounds like propaganda. They don’t want to pay and are stalling the process with bogus claims of fraud.
ejz 6y ago
Indeed. This complex Nigerian crime ring is best known as PRINCE.
bhewes 6y ago
Ah this is what happened to the lady I faxed stuff for at the UPS Store. That sucks.
paul7986 6y ago
All monies from stimulus to unemployment should've and should be directed right into taxpayer's bank accounts; those who made less then 75k last year instantly get the funds. If they are not needed up to the discretion of each person to do the right thing or not. The unemployment system was a terrible choice with it's antiquated technology systems and no surprise tons of fraud going to scammers while many Americans still haven't gotten their funds to survive on.
gknight 6y ago
Pardon my ignorance: Could someone explain to me why this is under the purview of the Secret Service?
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  It's a bit of a historical oddity, but the Secret Service is responsible for policing counterfeiting and wire fraud. When the USSS was founded in 1865 there was no federal police agency (other than USPIS I believe), so they handled that particular crime and no one has taken the jurisdiction away from them. https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/ https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/
  - gknight 6y ago
    Why I love HN. Thank you!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
exabrial 6y ago
Brought to you by Equifax!!
andreskytt 6y ago
This is a political choice. By choice, the identity system in US is broken. Therefore, it will be used for personal gain. And fraud scales well with technology.
Fjolsvith 6y ago
Could it be possible that the unemployment numbers being reported in the media are larger than the actual number of people unemployed at this time? As in, the economy isn't really in as bad of shape as we are being led to believe.
unnouinceput 6y ago
Quote: "The Service’s memo suggests the crime ring is operating in much the same way as crooks who specialize in filing fraudulent income tax refund requests with the states and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS), a perennial problem that costs the states and the U.S. Treasury hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year." A perennial! problem, hundreds of millions each year. It blows my mind how 80+ years later SSN is still used as identity, far beyond its original purpose. I mean with only one year of those losses US gov. could easily adopt something better.
- unclebucknasty 6y ago
  It's crazy that we all walk around with some secret number that, if discovered, could wreak havoc on our lives. This is especially true in this digital age of connectedness and breaches, wherein we're encouraged to use and share the number ourselves in some scenarios, but somehow expect it to not fall victim of a single error or act of malice.
  - Angostura 6y ago
    It's crazy that people use it and think of it as secret number.
- Dobbs 6y ago
  The Dutch system to this is pretty nice. Your BSN gets attached to a digital id (DigiD). You might give your BSN out to a company (healthcare, doctor, etc) but that is used to create the link to your DigiD. From there if you want to login to something like your healthcare company it will then bring up a form where you copy four characters from your DigiD app on your phone. This makes sure the requests match, then you just scan a QR code and type in a pin. So if you want to login to do something related to your taxes, or healthcare online you have very strong two factor auth. Additionally banks work similarly for making payments or purchases online. I want to order a pizza for delivery online it redirects me to a payment page on my banks website. I then take out my bank app on my phone, type in a pin, scan a QR, and approve the payment.
  - 6y ago
mirekrusin 6y ago
Jokes aside, blockchain w/zero knowledge proofs could actually help here a lot.
- austinheap 6y ago
  I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses?
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses? IoT cat bowl? Leave it out... As for how it'd scale, I'd say a look to the past would suggest that much like we saw with COVID, every State takes an initiative to deploy it [1] based on each departments need [2]. Hell some States have their own mining operation they were able to fund through some work/jobs program, and were able to get it funded through tax money. Personally, I tuned out when people at our local meetup were pushing for this: it seemed like government lobbying and I have no interest in pandering to politicians so I stopped listening--my co-founder was doing enough of that for her other ventures and I felt disgusted just asking her about it, let alone doing it myself. But if I recall correctly, they did manage to pilot test it. Its just that, while I advise everyone to pay their taxes, I hardly see the novelty or utility in pitching politicians to see this tech as a viable means to collect taxes. Especially since the actual talent in this space is already spread far too thin, as it is. These were ETH guys, so being the Bitcoin guy (maximalist, as they often called me) in the room I didn't want to see needless bloat on the network (after 2017 we all had main-net tx paranoia) so never really bothered to ask any further questions. 1: https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-blockchain-in-government/ https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-blockchai... 2: https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/ https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/
drawkbox 6y ago
Direct payments are better for this very reason. They also become bonuses for those working. Banks and broken state systems have really caused problems getting stimulus out as expected. Lots of people calling for temp UBI like Cuban [1]. It was obvious from the beginning we needed this. With everything we learned from the Great Recession 'bailouts/stimulus' we should have expected this and just not gone the bank route or unemployment alone. Direct payments takes pressure off everything, unemployment, state budgets, individuals, mortgage/rent, small business, demand from purchasing power etc. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-families-should-get-1000-in-stimulus-checks-every-two-weeks-with-one-big-catch-2020-05-17?mod=home-page https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-families-s...
- cat199 6y ago
  how would a buggy implementation of payment dispersal relate in any way to any perceived need for UBI?
  - drawkbox 6y ago
    I didn't say buggy, I said broken, sometimes on purpose. In "Study finds 44% of U.S. unemployment applicants have been denied or are still waiting" it shows the systems don't work [1]. This is one article, study or example in many, many reports on this. Direct payments, at least during the crisis and maybe auto UBI during recessions, would make it to everyone, not prevent people from weighing going back to work, not overload state budgets, reduce unemployment, and more. Some systems like Floridas were meant to not really work at all to minimize usage. Basically anyone in a state with a bad unemployment state system suffered. Direct payments gets around all that by using identity and tax system information. Direct payments to everyone also get past the whole idea of selective stimulus. Money to everyone gets to where it needs to be that no central planning could ever predict from food, gas, housing, insurance, health, etc [2]. Direct payments during recessions would make the floor higher and bring back purchasing power demand sooner, or keep it with some semblance of consistency in times like this. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-unemployment-applicants-have-been-denied-or-are-waiting.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-unemployment... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-how-americans-are-spending-money.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-...

676 points by elsewhen 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

I’m surprised banks literally don’t have the ability check for suspicious behavior like blatantly having the same account receive multiple unemployment benefit dollars from a state that the person doesn’t reside in...

toomuchtodo 6y ago
That’s not the bank’s responsibility. This is no different than the issues IRS faced with fraudulent refund activity. Unemployment systems should’ve invested in KYC-like systems, knowledge authentication, etc. Simply look at the talent running unemployment departments though. No engineering mindset, no accountability, hence financial fraud with no repercussions for government or perpetrators. For the love of Vint Cerf, please get involved in local government if you’re a technologist. It is the only way this gets better.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Doesn't it kind of become the bank's responsibility once they become aware they're holding onto criminal proceeds? Or is that why banks prefer not to pay attention, so they don't become aware of such things?
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Most technologists likely have an aversion to anything as backwater bureaucratic as government “tech” programs. Couple that with pay that wildly trails the market and the outcome is fairly easy to predict I think.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    What if the resulting code was open source and someone paid for the effort out of their own pocket. Non profit 18F style. Might even be able to distill requirements from existing code if that code can be retrieved with a FOIA request. I can empathize with not wanting to work directly for the bureaucracy. There are alternate paths to success. https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Interesting idea! I don’t know how to think about the threat model of “pay for it yourself, and then the government will run your code for essential services”. I suspect there’s a juicy target there, but it’s something I hadn’t considered so thanks for giving me something to mull about.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        An independent application security assessment would need to be performed prior to handoff of the code base (with follow ups each time you cut a new release), but if you can meet the requirements of all 50 states (not trivial, but also likely not overly onerous), that’s a huge reduction in duplicated effort. Glad I could provide something to ponder!
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I don't know about the US, but I had the same misconception in Brazil until I ended up training government employees. What I encountered was an extremely motivated and intelligent crowd that, even though they were underpaid, were motivated by a desire to make things work. It stuck with me that, while some companies had the best talent money could buy, these agencies had the best people no money would ever buy. Besides, even a small government deals with amounts of data that rival larger enterprises.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  Well, no. I wish that was the case but no. You would be surprised how invasive BSA law is. The main reason banks basically gave in on SARs was the legal protection they have for it. This coupled with little average teller is trained results with suspicious activity report stemming from customer saying 'none of your business' to a teller. And I assure you that when auditors ask an officer question why SAR was not filed ( most recent Moneygram case ), BSA officer is sweating bullet. So based on current setup in US, it is banks' responsibilty. And just to add to this, this scheme is being actively copied across the world. FinCEN case link: https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-assesses-1-million-penalty-and-seeks-bar-former-moneygram-executive https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-assesses-1-...
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I think we might be taking past each other. A bank and money transmitters are required to meet AML and KYC requirements (in this case, making sure the illicitly obtained funds aren’t laundered with mules or other means), but I propose that it’s the state unemployment insurance department’s responsibility to put benefits into the right deposit accounts in the first place.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      My bad. I completely misread your post. I never thought of that to be honest. My first reaction is hesitation, but it is mostly, because I am not sure how that would work in practice.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        My Citibank credit card pulls in my Chase deposit account details using my Chase login and password (I assume using Plaid under the hood). Perhaps something similar between unemployment systems and your bank, as the bank has already done all of the hard KYC work. They’ve got your PII (including SSN), and your account numbers. Use SSN as the key (I know, I know, we need to get away from the SSN as a citizen ID, baby steps) between the two. You also get to piggyback on 2FA/MFA systems banks have in place.
- apta 6y ago
  Why is it so hard to enforce banks to report such transactions? Doesn't the US force foreign banks to report balances of US citizens residing overseas? Oh the double standards.
  - briandear 6y ago
    FATCA is an injustice of epic proportions. You can thank the US government of 2010 for that hypocrisy. It was used by the left as a way to “get” “fat cats” — it’s literally in the name: FATCA(ts.) Chuck Schumer was a highly vocal proponent. Instead it harms everyone overseas while for actual fat cats, it has been business mostly as usual.
    - kyboren 6y ago
      I suspect you're being downvoted by US citizens who have never lived abroad and are blind to the difficulties FATCA causes for non-"Fat Cat" American expats. Your comment is entirely on-point.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      Could you expand on that: how does it is cause harm, why aren't overseas "fat cats" affected?
      - apta 6y ago
        One reason is that it causes the cost to be borne by those overseas bank, just to address the incompetencies of the US government and the bizarre law to tax its citizens living overseas, which I think only one or two countries do.
      - kyboren 6y ago
        It causes harm to American expats because FATCA's terms are horrible for banks. Basically, they have a whole host of new reporting obligations for their US citizen customers, wherever they are in the world. If their compliance fails, their US operations will be subject to a 30% withholding tax on all transactions. American citizens are the rare exception for banks outside the US and the compliance costs and huge operational risks make it very unattractive to accept US citizen clients. It is very difficult to find a bank willing to take them on as a customer, and those that do often put restrictions on their accounts. Fat cat expats are relatively unaffected because they can afford to set up all kinds of complicated legal structures, companies, trusts, etc. to skirt the law and anyway have enough money that even with increased compliance costs they are still worth keeping as customers. Finally, in general, US tax law regarding foreign earned income is completely absurd and nearly unique in the world, and direct compliance costs on expat Americans--for example, FBAR requirements--are equally absurd. I believe this is a result of the structural disenfranchisement of expats in the American political system. Expats vote where they last resided, so lots of places might have 0.5% expat voters, but no one place has 100% expat voters. So no politician has any incentive to represent expat interests.
- alexashka 6y ago
  Why would throwing innocent bodies at a problem solve it? You solve systemic problems with systemic solutions. Do you know what comes after a 'democracy' aka 'freedom' run amock? A violent dictator. Your efforts should be put towards determining which violent dictator gets into power, not wishful thinking that you can fix corruption and incompetence without killing people and ruining lives. Remember how Trump said he'd 'drain the swamp'? He's a worthless coward and a hack who got elected pretending to be a dictator. USA was ready for a dictator, they voted for one and instead got a reality tv host. Do you see where things are headed? You can play a part in choosing a violent dictator, or in trying to sustain living in a cellpool (Hillary, Biden, etc). Even hillbillies are ready for a dictator without knowing it, as it always happens, so you're in a bit of trouble. That's how the real world works, sorry. On the upside - this shit democracy can probably sustain corruption and incompetence almost indefinitely, because most people are fine living in a cesspool. If anyone tries to drain the cesspool, you can assassinate them in broad daylight and create a tourist attraction around a fictional shooter afterwards. Oh, and throw innocent bodies at problems like you suggest. Send kids to die in worthless wars, send kids to waste their life doing finance, send the brightest kids into companies doing 1984 surveillance and serving double-think, etc, etc, etc. For most people, power only coming with responsibility is an abstraction they can't comprehend - they buy lottery tickets, worship worthless, rich (powerful in their tiny little brains) hacks like actors, the Kardashians, rappers talking about 'bitches' and being criminals etc precisely because their world only includes one half of a proper-functioning society - power. That selfish me-me-me, more for me half :) Responsibility is something they do their best to avoid - they dream of escaping it altogether.
  - tenebrisalietum 6y ago
    So how to do fix this and make people want responsibility? The only answer people seem to have is that children must be brought up better/parents must be better at raising their children, but this seems to require people who already want responsibility-first-power-second to be effective.
    - alexashka 6y ago
      This was the naive communism idea, that you can mold people into any shape you desire with enough education, propaganda and other forms of societal pressure. There is science that tells us otherwise. If you're a midget, you cannot ever be successful in the NBA. People's brain regions vary up to 10x in size and some people have regions that are completely absent in others, oops. Some people can see 10x more colors than others. Some people can do mathematics, most can't. Sorry. Ok so we have people with vastly different abilities, people are not equal. What do we do with this information? We need to figure out who has which abilities. How do you do that? You scan their brains :) Now what happens when we find out half the billionaires have tiny worthless brains and got lucky (every Russian billionaire as one simple example)? What happens when rich people have idiot children who are only good for serving coffee? There lies the rub - you have to want power-responsibility ratio to match ability, more than you want your offspring to have power regardless of their ability to handle responsibility. You have to fix corruption on the level of enabling idiot family members because they're yours. You have to fix enabling your friends because they're your friends. You have to understand that an idiot would be better off serving coffee more than going to a top university, cheating their way through it and being a worthless manager with a high paycheque. You have to not be an idiot to understand these things. How do we have more non-idiots? One easy way is to monitor who has children. Ohh but freedom I can do what I want with my body?! That's your selfish idiot brain talking that doesn't take responsibility into account. See how deep this goes? Every facet of modern society ignores responsibility. The fix starts with people like me talking about it and being treated with downvotes from the idiot masses :) ps. If you want a more thorough treatment of responsibility and how important it is, I've heard good things about Jordan Peterson.
- nodesocket 6y ago
  Banks already have responsibility to prevent money laundering by submitting a form when you deposit over $10k in cash, it’s called a currency transaction report and sent to the IRS.
rootusrootus 6y ago
I'd put it as much on the state. From the bank's perspective it's just an ACH transfer. The state knows what it's for and is arguably in a better position to detect anomalies. And the state should be doing better due diligence to verify identities and eligibility.
- aswanson 6y ago
  States are processing claims in cobol on mainframes from the 1970s. I think you overestimate their data science ops.
  - DataWorker 6y ago
    They were wiring large amounts of money to people in Oklahoma rather than their own state. That there is no effort put into preventing fraud, which was guaranteed to happen, is down to negligence of the state government. Part of that is on the voters who allocate tax dollars in an idiotic fashion whenever given the chance.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      There are plenty of cases where someone would be paid unemployment insurance out of state. The most common one is moving back to be closer to a family support network after losing a job since many people don't have much in the way of savings, at least not enough for a few months rent while they look for work. In most states, unemployment insurance is paid for by employers per worker and after paying in for a certain time, the UI program essentially owes the unemployment benefits to the worker once they lose their job. Where that worker chooses to go with their checks is up to them.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Banks already have fraud protection on credit cards and are responsible for reporting suspicious amounts of depositing (above a certain amount). Thus is the basis of my shock that something similarly obvious isn’t covered.
spacephysics 6y ago
I agree, but I hope such analysis requires a warrant or just cause - instead of having banks check their customers activity, it should come from the other side, institutions that send the money out perform a cross-reference for the same person (whether defined by name, account, etc). Then the issue is some people are working, but under the table, and collecting benefits. That’s a bit harder to detect
elliekelly 6y ago
Banks absolutely do have this ability and I would guess SARs from banks are what led to the Secret Service eventually uncovering this elaborate scheme. Though I imagine more SARs would have come from the outgoing transfers (from the mules’ accounts to the criminals) than from the suspicious unemployment deposits. Generally government money is considered “clean” but if a mule suddenly started receiving more money than usual it would be investigated regardless of the source.

12xo 6y ago

I find it ridiculous that you cannot buy pseudoephedrine without the pharmacy checking whether you've purchased any quantity of the OTC medicine in any other state via a inter-agency, multi-state networked solution... And yet this kind of stuff still exists. There is more than enough way to solve these problems, but for some f'n reason there is no will...

buildbot 6y ago
Probably not not helpful, but meanwhile just a little bit north in Canada they sell excellent otc allergy medicine with pseudofed. Just wild what we choose to prohibit.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  Meanwhile banning coffee roasts and pieces of outerwear because they sound vaguely like the name of scary-looking guns. I feel like there's just so much in the state now, we need mandatory sunset on anything like this. Review of legislation and rules/regulation should be routine, rather than boutique, and each time we should be called upon to make a positive case for each rule.
  - lisper 6y ago
    > banning coffee roasts and pieces of outerwear because they sound vaguely like the name of scary-looking guns. Huh??? Reference?
    - afturner 6y ago
      Looks like it was a mistake: https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-ban-some-coffee-a-website-and-a-toy-heres-why https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-b...
    - microcolonel 6y ago
      Okay okay, technically it didn't apply since there was no authority, though it shows the haste involved in producing the list. It also appeared to include a plastic toy-grade BB gun, because a PMC once imprinted a similar name on a private batch of firearms that were never sold or imported into Canada. Furthermore, apparently the firearm used in the shooting that prompted this sweeping ban was never sold on the Canadian market. It was illegally purchased, illegally smuggled into Canada, and you know, illegally discharged to kill people. There is no connection between the Canadian domestic market for semi-automatic rifles and the shooting, and yet the resultant rules target only the Canadian domestic market for semi-automatic rifles. https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-ban-some-coffee-a-website-and-a-toy-heres-why https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeaus-gun-ban-appeared-to-b...

lgleason 6y ago

Not surprising given the creaky state un-employment systems. I would not be surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well.

irishcoffee 6y ago
The bank account numbers on a personal check or the one you give your employer for direct deposit?
- xur17 6y ago
  Aren't those the same?
  - pmorici 6y ago
    Yes
    - irishcoffee 6y ago
      Heh welp pardon me for having more than one bank account
CodeWriter23 6y ago
> I would not be surprised if bank account numbers are compromised as well. I don't that works too well for this kind of scam. What do you do with the money? ACH it to a totally traceable other account? This scam relies on a network of trust, that the mules will draw out the cash and take their cut (and only their cut) and walk the funds to another location for tender.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  That’s what I don’t understand about this kind of scam. It seems like an awful lot of work. Juggling all of your fake internet significant others or employees and then building up enough trust to make the ask. I can’t imagine the payout is that substantial given how much effort would be required.

Fiveplus 6y ago

This is a repost. @dang

gus_massa 6y ago
I only see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237 but it has only 3 points. From the FAQ: > Are reposts ok? > When a story has had significant attention in the last year or so, we bury reposts as duplicates. If not, a small number of reposts is ok.
chrisseaton 6y ago
That's allowed. And 'at'ing people here does nothing as far as I know.

jld 6y ago

I got a letter yesterday informing me I made an unemployment claim. Bummer.

kryogen1c 6y ago

remember when SSNs were being implemented and the government promised it wouldn't be used as a personal identifier?

iaresee 6y ago
I've only been in the USA for less than a decade but when I landed here and got my SSN I got a pretty good lecture at the window from the Federal worker about never giving this out, keep it safe, yadda, yadda, yadda... ...and was then asked at every turn, by every website and application and whatnot, to provide four or more digits of this number to accomplish even the most benign things. There's what the US government thought it would be and then there's what it's become because zero enforcement on use of it as a national person identity number was ever enacted. The "don't give anyone your SSN" trope has become one of those household jokes. Right up there with "American's don't pay high taxes".
- jniedrauer 6y ago
  And those 4 numbers that they always ask for are the only part of the SSN that isn't procedurally generated from public information.
  - Mindless2112 6y ago
    This isn't true anymore. (Although for most adults, it doesn't matter as they got their SSN before it changed.) > On June 25, 2011, the SSA changed the SSN assignment process to "SSN randomization". SSN randomization affected the SSN assignment process in the following ways: > 1. It eliminated the geographical significance of the first three digits of the SSN, referred to as the area number, by no longer allocating specific numbers by state for assignment to individuals. > 2. It eliminated the significance of the highest group number assigned for each area number, and, as a result, the High Group List is frozen in time and can be used for validation of only those SSNs issued prior to the randomization implementation date (see section "Valid SSNs"). > 3. Previously unassigned area numbers have been introduced for assignment, excluding area numbers 000, 666 and 900–999. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structu...

dilandau 6y ago

Who would have thought that dumping trillions of stimulus into the hands of the unemployed would attract scammers? State unemployment offices just aren't equipped for this kind of activity. Politicians want to do anything they can right now to be seen to be "helping" -- to do otherwise is political suicide -- so we get these insane stimulus bills. A common thing I hear is that people don't want to return to work because they make more sitting at home, stealing from taxpayers. Are they scammers, too? I think so.

mdszy 6y ago
The classism in this comment is thick enough to cut with a knife but anyway. Can you not see how the problem here is clearly not with the unemployed folks, but with the fact that they're unable to make a living wage by actually working?
maximente 6y ago
actually, paying people more in unemployment than they made working is great public health policy for maintaining quarantine, aligning financial incentives with desired behavior. quite shocking that the US government managed to get it done.
DataWorker 6y ago
The point was exactly that, to keep low wage people from going back to work. They set the rates higher to disincentivize people going back to work. Don’t blame people for responding to public policy the way they’re intended to respond, blame the policy. (Also it comes across as petty and ignorant to blame the working poor for their plight. With wealth comes poverty.)
vangelis 6y ago
Honestly, if people hadn't prepared for an unexpected pandemic that tanked the economy, they have only themselves to blame!
edmundsauto 6y ago
I suspect this is overwrought. Anecdotal, but I recently got a chuckle out of this article[0] in the San Diego paper. While there was much hand wringing from business owners about how their workers wouldn't come back for their previous wages, when you investigate, workers want to return to their jobs even for less money. Honestly, it seems like not a big deal. Business owners are fearful, perhaps because they will have to compete on wages to re-hire some workers. But it does sound like workers want to return to work, and this whole "unemployment pays more so why work?" schtick is a big nothingburger. [0] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/economy/story/2020-05-03/some-san-diegans-can-earn-more-on-unemployment-why-go-back-to-work https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/economy/story/...

ValCanBuild 6y ago

Same thing is happening with the UK furlough scheme. Government is paying 80% of people's salaries while they're off work but some employers are actively defrauding the scheme and telling those people to work...

yalogin 6y ago

I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for it. This is sort of thing that the federal government should do and provide a portal for each state to use so that they can track and do stuff across states to look for fraud. However i don’t know if states rights and separation of duties screws this up.

mistrial9 6y ago
people in business in the USA hire outsiders to do the dirty work, or afterwards such relationship leaks the details provided, to others who are just willing.. Why is USA federal IT work outsourced three times before it is done? What USA business owners, former owners, their accountants and others, are just in it for the money and tired of others winning while they work so hard and lose, etc.. SO .. there is some collusion across borders, most likely
MattGaiser 6y ago
> when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. Is it a hard thing to understand or is it just something that doesn't get done? I work for a municipal government (not in social assistance though). Very little is documented, not because it would be hard to do so, but because first everything from budget to approved software for documentation to time allocation to 5 different approvals would be required to do it. We are terrible at sharing information internally, so every thing would require meeting after meeting to chase down who knows what as well. Actually documenting the system I work on would take 1-2 days. But we initiated an overarching documentation plan in November and it is still being worked on (if it has not died from neglect).
avianlyric 6y ago
> I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. It’s quite literally a criminals job to understand and abuse these systems, and there’s very clear link between their performance and their reward. Makes for a good motivator. People frequently underestimate criminals because they don’t appreciate that these individuals are doing this work as full time job. I’m sure if you spent 8 hours a day for week, you’ll have an equally good understanding.

ipnon 6y ago

My friend's desperately needed unemployment funds are frozen because they were requested using a Romanian IP address. My friend has never been to Romania nor spoofed their IP in such a manner. The New York state unemployment website seemingly allows no recourse for this incident. They are now unemployed and unable to receive any income.

marcinzm 6y ago
The recourse as I understand it is to try and call the agency to speak to a person. Of course the call systems are overloaded so that's easier said than done. edit: This is the general approach by US agencies, the IRS website barfed on my info and I had to call a local office to get a person to help me (the nation wide number was 100% automated and likewise barfed on my info).
- trynewideas 6y ago
  Good luck: https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/04/oregon-insight-hours-and-hours-on-hold-with-the-employment-department.html https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/04/oregon-insight-h... > Laid-off workers are confused and confounded by the department’s faltering claims system, erroneous denials and stubborn silence on key policies and questions. > The frustrations lead people to call the department again and again – some say they dial more than 700 times a day. > The employment department is taking steps to address the call volume. It has added hundreds of staff to process claims in recent weeks – it has 520 now and has leased a facility in Wilsonville to expand claims staff to 800. > With jobless claims up nearly seventeenfold, though, the staffing increases aren’t close to keeping up with demand. So it may be weeks – or months – before Oregon works through its backlog in claims questions.
- ken 6y ago
  Calling the unemployment office right now is virtually impossible. Conventional wisdom these days is that if you want to collect unemployment, you need to make filing a claim your full-time job. You start calling at 7am when they open, and keep re-dialing until you get through -- hopefully before they close at 4pm, and you have to start again the next day. Also, don't call before Wednesday, if you don't absolutely need to. Monday/Tuesday are unofficially reserved for people who really need the money. Of course, even if you get through to a person and get the right bit flipped in their database, there's no guarantees. I also hear lots of stories of people whose claims were approved 4 or 6 weeks ago and still haven't gotten a dime.

icegreentea2 6y ago

I wonder what the rate/total volume (or detected volume) of fraud is? How does it compare to baseline levels of fraud? The article says the amount of fraud has kept pace with dramatic increase in claims in Rhode Island. If it's just keeping pace, why are we surprised? Do we even need to worry that much? Is the current situation making it easier to commit fraud? Or is it just generating more volume and noise to hide fraud in?

llarsson 6y ago

Well, if I am employed in one state, that means I am unemployed in almost 49 others, doesn't it? Time to fill out some paperwork! For certain things, this perhaps one of them, there are benefits if handled on a federal level with more oversight.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
You wouldn't need to handle it centrally, you could do something like log all "single-state" transactions against a name, SSN, & bank account, and publish to reach of the other states your data -- preferably through a federal data store, but it could still work otherwise?
unishark 6y ago
Is that all it takes to get unemployment now? Just an application and they take your word for it? I thought you needed to get legitimately laid off (i.e. not quit or be fired for cause) by an employer in the state who notifies the state of this fact for you, and perhaps who has to pay part of your benefits. And there's always both upsides as well as downsides to handling things federally versus state.

bpodgursky 6y ago

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, given that two days ago someone in Michigan attempted to use my wife's info + email to get unemployment benefits. We live in Seattle, never lived in Michigan. Managed to file a fraud claim in this case, but only because they happened to use her email address for some reason.

feross 6y ago

Duplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23200553

bluedino 6y ago

This pairs well with the high amount of income tax return fraud. Basically, someone files your taxes for you and steals your refund check.

MattGaiser 6y ago
That explains why I see so many "volunteer" tax preparers on various sites.

canada_dry 6y ago

In context of how much "personal identifiable information" (e.g. SSN) that is stolen through data breaches in the USA - it's hardly a surprise. The list of breaches just goes on-and-on: https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-breaches/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/data-breaches/

TeMPOraL 6y ago
> that is stolen Or just straight up sold by the government: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20438289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20438289.
- canada_dry 6y ago
  ... or collected by state prison call centers and misused (though admittedly this would be a minute fraction in comparison). https://www.cio.com/article/2417888/prison-labor--outsourcing-s--best-kept-secret-.html https://www.cio.com/article/2417888/prison-labor--outsourcin...
asciident 6y ago
I think it's time we just eliminated the concept of personally identifiable information (PII). Your SSN, birthdate, name, etc. are no longer secret. Operate with that assumption. Invest in a department in the government (e.g. digital service) to make this change once and for all. Heck, let's eliminate DST and move to the metric system while we're at it. Let's call this "moving to new standards" that will pay off in dividends in the future.
- sp332 6y ago
  Why would a bank give someone a loan if they have no idea who the person really is?
  - ferongr 6y ago
    ID cards?
  - 6y ago

bradleyjg 6y ago

Gee I sure am glad hard working class action lawyers were able to secure me “highly valuable” credit monitoring services after corporate negligence allowed my sensitive information to be stolen.

mostlyjason 6y ago

It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. They just accept a social security number as if it was some sort of password, when it was never intended for that purpose. Other countries give citizens an electronic ID to authenticate themselves. It seems this would prevent hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud and identity theft.

MattGaiser 6y ago
> It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. Vast numbers of Americans would view that as a big step towards totalitarianism and taking their guns away.
- dboreham 6y ago
  Except if its about voting and then any amount of intrusion is fine.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Many of them quite literally want voting licenses.
  - newfriend 6y ago
    And on the flip side, any amount of intrusion is fine, unless it's about voting.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - otterley 6y ago
      Voting is a much more important right than the other rights, because voting is fundamental to the existence of a republic. One could argue that the right to bear arms exists for the primary purpose of protecting the right to vote.

mdturnerphys 6y ago

. . . a substantial amount of the fraudulent benefits submitted have used PII from first responders, government personnel and school employees. Seems like this should have generated some red flags, as public sector employees haven't been subject to layoffs.

haram_masala 6y ago
Makes you wonder if the infamous OPM breach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...) has been distributed beyond China.
- kyuudou 6y ago
  No wondering, I just assume that's the case. Like, whatever the Chinese equivalents of 4chan and pastebin are would be in constant discussion over the best ways to exploit that information. OPM is a big umbrella over the US Federal Govt. They even got biometric data in the form of fingerprints. There are certainly worse things to breach but it's basically HR for the US gov't. Imagine your company's HR dept getting totally owned, then people using the CFO's data to get large loans, make harmful business deals or blackwash someone high-profile.

macinjosh 6y ago

More like massive fraud against tax payers. The State is part of the problem here, not a victim. Glad the money I earn by laboring is being taken from me (without consent) and literally handed over to criminals. Edit: I see some of you just down vote what you don't agree with. That is OK it doesn't make me wrong. The state is complicit here in funneling tax payer money to fraudsters due to their own incompetence. This money is being taken out of the hands of those these programs are for. Anyway, I'll stop making you uncomfortable with the truth now.

tehjoker 6y ago

Keep in mind the fraud is in the hundreds of millions and the size of the program is in the hundreds of billions ($260B from the CARES act alone: https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-provisions-coronavirus-aid-relief-economic-security-cares-act/ https://www.nelp.org/publication/unemployment-insurance-prov...)

brentonator 6y ago
I'll use the food stamps argument: All I see is millions and regardless of how insignificant that number is with regard to how many the program has helped, I'm going to argue the whole program should be shut down because my party says so and uphill bootstraps. If it's 200M of fraud that's less than a percent. I don't think you can safely say less than 1% of Americans have had their identities stolen so they've done a hell of a job if you ask me.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

People should look at this as a business opportunity. Look, states are losing tens of millions of dollars a year in fraud. I bet they would pay many millions to prevent it with smart data analysis and red flagging...

Nextgrid 6y ago
But it will be outsourced to some bullshit consultancy that will take 10x the initial budget and end up not delivering anything.
- asciident 6y ago
  True, but part of this higher cost would also be to handle all the "requirements" from the government from years of accumulated desires from the people (accountability, supporting minority owners, prioritizing US suppliers, hiring veterans and the disabled, reporting sexual harassment, etc.). In the end, it's all one big cycle with each part blaming another, when in reality this is roughly the best we can do with a system where everyone acts in their own self interests and agency. In such a system, doing anything takes a lot of time and money. Look at extending subway lines in NYC. The unions, negotiations with property owners, environmental regulations, etc. also impose a major cost and roadblock. Not saying these are bad things to support, as we do want those things, but we should recognize that each of these requirements reduces efficiency (probably exponentially).

chrischen 6y ago

That’s funny because my dad has been struggling to get unemployment due to state bureaucracy (he was working remotely for a company in another state, which complicates the filing). I guess the same bureaucracy is probably what enables the fraud.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
If you pay taxes in the state, shouldn’t it be enough?
- chrischen 6y ago
  Yes he is entitled to it. The problem was that it was unclear which state he was supposed to file in (because he works remotely out of state), and one state's department just said to go to the other state.

raverbashing 6y ago

The ironic part of this is the spam comment (that was not removed from there on purpose) and most likely is one gear of this fraud system

pnw_hazor 6y ago

The true scope of the fraud will come clear when IRS starts coming after the named beneficiaries of the fraudulent disbursements. In WA state (not sure about other states), the unemployment insurance agency does not automatically withhold taxes from disbursement checks. (It is an option the beneficiary can choose). The IRS will come looking for those taxes.

cgb223 6y ago

Wow Nigerian Scammers have really kicked it up a notch since the “Prince of Nigeria” days

fortran77 6y ago

Every time our Government wants to help people with cash payouts, there's always massive fraud. You'd think they'd learn.

scroot 6y ago

It's almost like decades of governance by people who say government is the problem leads to ... inept governing ...

relativitypro 6y ago

I guess the equitax data breach will lead to real consequences. Just not for equifax.

ItsAlwaysMe 6y ago

I received a letter on May 8th telling me that I applied for unemployment benefits... but of course I did not. I am also in WA state. I filed a fraud report, so we'll see how it goes. So incredibly frustrating...

finnh 6y ago
Me too, I just got one (although it wasn't saying I applied, it was just referring to my "claim #" and telling me about a retraining opportunity). Where did you file your fraud report? I've been meaning to but haven't figured out where to call yet.
- ItsAlwaysMe 6y ago
  I had the same opportunity letter, something about entrepreneurship but also referenced a claim number. Here's the link: https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-fraud https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/unemployment-benefits-fraud
  - finnh 6y ago
    (thanks - once I typed my comment I thought "hmm I bet I can just _find_ that form" and lo! it was findable). Considering whether to also send a paper letter, as those still seem to be "more official" and the state ESD IT systems are clearly a bag of frowns. It's good luck that the entrepeneurship letter-sending program actually works off my real home address, not whatever the scammers may have input. I certainly didn't receive any other letters from the state regarding my "claim".

hilyen 6y ago

If only we saw this coming.... oh wait... Equifax's data breach of 143M records. People have been calling for social security number system to be updated. In what world does it make sense to prove your identity with just a username (ss #) and not a password as well?

joncrane 6y ago

Interesting that it's the banks that are catching this. I know we trash banks, and they do some terrible things to customers, but they have become important partners in fighting financial crime including AML (Anti Money Laundering) and other crimes. I'm sure some banks are using ML to detect anomalous transactions, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or more ML models are what first flagged this activity as suspicious.

williesleg 6y ago

Keep putting moms at playgrounds in jail.

WalterBright 6y ago

I'm not surprised this is happening in Washington State. Here the voter registration requirements are writing a name on a piece of paper, here's your ballot. But no voter fraud is ever detected. Hmmm.

CydeWeys 6y ago
Source for voter fraud happening at a meaningful level in WA?
- WalterBright 6y ago
  When no verification is done, how can fraud even be detected?
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    So you have no evidence of it happening then? And we're just supposed to assume by default that it's happening even though you can't provide any proof?
WaxProlix 6y ago
This has nothing to do with voter fraud, and how easy or hard it is to register to vote doesn't seem to bear on the topic.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  When they send out ballots with literally zero checking to see if the recipient is an actual person, that sounds a lot like what is happening with the unemployment benefits.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

memset 6y ago

Interestingly, there is exactly one top-level comment right now on HN. (Now there are two.) That comment, and the ensuing thread is about buying pseudoephedrine. How does this relate to fraudulent unemployment insurance claims?

billme 6y ago
No, there is not just one top-level comment. Minimize that comment, then click “more” to see additional top-level comments. As for the comment you commented on, that comment would be better placed as a child comment, but it’s about interstate commutation issues, which clearly relates to the topic.

finneganscat 6y ago

This sounds like propaganda. They don’t want to pay and are stalling the process with bogus claims of fraud.

ejz 6y ago

Indeed. This complex Nigerian crime ring is best known as PRINCE.

bhewes 6y ago

Ah this is what happened to the lady I faxed stuff for at the UPS Store. That sucks.

paul7986 6y ago

All monies from stimulus to unemployment should've and should be directed right into taxpayer's bank accounts; those who made less then 75k last year instantly get the funds. If they are not needed up to the discretion of each person to do the right thing or not. The unemployment system was a terrible choice with it's antiquated technology systems and no surprise tons of fraud going to scammers while many Americans still haven't gotten their funds to survive on.

gknight 6y ago

Pardon my ignorance: Could someone explain to me why this is under the purview of the Secret Service?

arrosenberg 6y ago
It's a bit of a historical oddity, but the Secret Service is responsible for policing counterfeiting and wire fraud. When the USSS was founded in 1865 there was no federal police agency (other than USPIS I believe), so they handled that particular crime and no one has taken the jurisdiction away from them. https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/ https://www.secretservice.gov/investigation/
- gknight 6y ago
  Why I love HN. Thank you!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

exabrial 6y ago

Brought to you by Equifax!!

andreskytt 6y ago

This is a political choice. By choice, the identity system in US is broken. Therefore, it will be used for personal gain. And fraud scales well with technology.

Fjolsvith 6y ago

Could it be possible that the unemployment numbers being reported in the media are larger than the actual number of people unemployed at this time? As in, the economy isn't really in as bad of shape as we are being led to believe.

unnouinceput 6y ago

Quote: "The Service’s memo suggests the crime ring is operating in much the same way as crooks who specialize in filing fraudulent income tax refund requests with the states and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS), a perennial problem that costs the states and the U.S. Treasury hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year." A perennial! problem, hundreds of millions each year. It blows my mind how 80+ years later SSN is still used as identity, far beyond its original purpose. I mean with only one year of those losses US gov. could easily adopt something better.

unclebucknasty 6y ago
It's crazy that we all walk around with some secret number that, if discovered, could wreak havoc on our lives. This is especially true in this digital age of connectedness and breaches, wherein we're encouraged to use and share the number ourselves in some scenarios, but somehow expect it to not fall victim of a single error or act of malice.
- Angostura 6y ago
  It's crazy that people use it and think of it as secret number.
Dobbs 6y ago
The Dutch system to this is pretty nice. Your BSN gets attached to a digital id (DigiD). You might give your BSN out to a company (healthcare, doctor, etc) but that is used to create the link to your DigiD. From there if you want to login to something like your healthcare company it will then bring up a form where you copy four characters from your DigiD app on your phone. This makes sure the requests match, then you just scan a QR code and type in a pin. So if you want to login to do something related to your taxes, or healthcare online you have very strong two factor auth. Additionally banks work similarly for making payments or purchases online. I want to order a pizza for delivery online it redirects me to a payment page on my banks website. I then take out my bank app on my phone, type in a pin, scan a QR, and approve the payment.
- 6y ago

mirekrusin 6y ago

Jokes aside, blockchain w/zero knowledge proofs could actually help here a lot.

austinheap 6y ago
I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses?
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I'm already on the hook for fixing the in-laws WiFi, printer, and IoT cat water bowl -- how could this possibly scale to the masses? IoT cat bowl? Leave it out... As for how it'd scale, I'd say a look to the past would suggest that much like we saw with COVID, every State takes an initiative to deploy it [1] based on each departments need [2]. Hell some States have their own mining operation they were able to fund through some work/jobs program, and were able to get it funded through tax money. Personally, I tuned out when people at our local meetup were pushing for this: it seemed like government lobbying and I have no interest in pandering to politicians so I stopped listening--my co-founder was doing enough of that for her other ventures and I felt disgusted just asking her about it, let alone doing it myself. But if I recall correctly, they did manage to pilot test it. Its just that, while I advise everyone to pay their taxes, I hardly see the novelty or utility in pitching politicians to see this tech as a viable means to collect taxes. Especially since the actual talent in this space is already spread far too thin, as it is. These were ETH guys, so being the Bitcoin guy (maximalist, as they often called me) in the room I didn't want to see needless bloat on the network (after 2017 we all had main-net tx paranoia) so never really bothered to ask any further questions. 1: https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-blockchain-in-government/ https://statescoop.com/colorado-lawmakers-push-for-blockchai... 2: https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/ https://choosecolorado.com/blockchain/

drawkbox 6y ago

Direct payments are better for this very reason. They also become bonuses for those working. Banks and broken state systems have really caused problems getting stimulus out as expected. Lots of people calling for temp UBI like Cuban [1]. It was obvious from the beginning we needed this. With everything we learned from the Great Recession 'bailouts/stimulus' we should have expected this and just not gone the bank route or unemployment alone. Direct payments takes pressure off everything, unemployment, state budgets, individuals, mortgage/rent, small business, demand from purchasing power etc. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-families-should-get-1000-in-stimulus-checks-every-two-weeks-with-one-big-catch-2020-05-17?mod=home-page https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mark-cuban-says-families-s...

cat199 6y ago
how would a buggy implementation of payment dispersal relate in any way to any perceived need for UBI?
- drawkbox 6y ago
  I didn't say buggy, I said broken, sometimes on purpose. In "Study finds 44% of U.S. unemployment applicants have been denied or are still waiting" it shows the systems don't work [1]. This is one article, study or example in many, many reports on this. Direct payments, at least during the crisis and maybe auto UBI during recessions, would make it to everyone, not prevent people from weighing going back to work, not overload state budgets, reduce unemployment, and more. Some systems like Floridas were meant to not really work at all to minimize usage. Basically anyone in a state with a bad unemployment state system suffered. Direct payments gets around all that by using identity and tax system information. Direct payments to everyone also get past the whole idea of selective stimulus. Money to everyone gets to where it needs to be that no central planning could ever predict from food, gas, housing, insurance, health, etc [2]. Direct payments during recessions would make the floor higher and bring back purchasing power demand sooner, or keep it with some semblance of consistency in times like this. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-unemployment-applicants-have-been-denied-or-are-waiting.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/44percent-of-us-unemployment... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-how-americans-are-spending-money.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-...