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Elon Musk reopening Tesla factory despite Alameda County order
- rogerkirkness 6y agoI have been gritting my teeth through another reading of Atlas Shrugged, but this tweet is like a case study. Prediction: Elon gets arrested, Tesla keeps producing, Tesla comes out of this stronger than other automakers, mid-term move to Nevada or Texas, congressperson retires with pension.
- Traster 6y agoSpoiler alert, Atlas Shrugged is libertarian fantasy, not an accurate study on the economy.
- allears 6y agoCourts generally don't take kindly to this sort of thing. And Tesla probably needs a business license to operate. Musk expects Alameda County and the State of CA to support his profits over common sense, caution, and the rule of law; but Tesla isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the California economy. He may be noisy, but he's not as important as he seems to think.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoThen let it be settled in court, and California prove their case for the order. That is the point of this, and why Musk will be on the line and announcing it publicly on Twitter. Checks and balances.
- secfirstmd 6y agoI'm a Elon Musk fan in general but what about "duty of care" to his staff? Also what other laws can he (or anyone else) choose to violate? What if a cigarette factory owner decides to violate smoking health guidelines by selling to kids on the basis they reject parts of the science about the state's decision?
- toomuchtodo 6y agoIs it not a moral obligation to perform civil disobedience when challenging a law you believe unjust? He asks for only himself to be arrested! Regarding duty of care, 43 states are reopening already. Are they wrong? Can you prove they’re wrong to do so? Shouldn’t there be a burden of proof if you as the government require a business to remain shuttered when the vast majority of states are reopening?
- secfirstmd 6y agoCivil disobedience? This isn't marching against Jim Crow, this is about Covid-19. If he wants to express that opinion fine, but what about the health of the staff he is making go to work?
- toomuchtodo 6y agoHow long do you propose we don’t go back to work for?
- dekhn 6y agoHe already had an agreement for the factory to open in 1 week. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon-musk-tesla-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon... “We were working on a lot of policies and procedures to help operate that plant and quite frankly, I think Tesla did a pretty good job, and that’s why I had it to the point where on May 18, Tesla would have opened,” Mr. Haggerty said. “I know Elon knew that. But he wanted it this week.” so 1 more week beyond today is what the officials were planning on.
- M2Ys4U 6y ago> Is it not a moral obligation to perform civil disobedience when challenging a law you believe unjust? He asks for only himself to be arrested! Then he should be the only one in the factory
- matz1 6y ago
- dekhn 6y agoHis tirade is over a 1-week difference (the county already had an agreement that he could start May 18). The court case won't resolve in 1 week, so it is unclear what he expects to achieve by opening 1 week early, by filing a lawsuit, and threatening to leave.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoSo what’s the big deal? If the county doesn’t like it, arrest him and let a court rule on their authority. As a Tesla investor, I support the relocation of Fremont production capacity out of California. If this speeds that up (even if it’s simply a public circus exercise), I have no complaints.
- dekhn 6y agoI don't see any reason for public brinkmanship to achieve this. Just seems... imprudent? Further, if his decision really does expose workers to higher risk (that was preventable), it moves the burden from the health authorities to him.
- AlexandrB 6y ago> As a Tesla investor, I support the relocation of Fremont production capacity out of California. You've pinpointed the most important issue here. The health of your portfolio!
- toomuchtodo 6y agoNot quite. I expect no value from my Tesla stock, literally zero. I only care about the rapid electrification of transportation and utility scale energy storage deployment. It’s incredibly clear how rapidly we as a species are headed towards the climate change wall, and besides Tesla (and some electric utilities), no one has the swiftness the gravity of the situation dictates. This should be the equivalent of a war time effort, but it's not, and that is insanity.
- marvin 6y ago
- subsubzero 6y agoAgreed. But a reminder that if tesla leaves it follows a long list of very large companies that have left California in the past few years, Bechtel, Toyota US, Chevron, Carls Jr, Jamba Juice, Numira Bio, Nestle US, Jacobs Engineering etc..
- luckydata 6y agoand it has mattered zero.
- crazygringo 6y agoThat's no indictment of California, though. As companies become larger and more profitable, as a general rule they move as much of their workforce as possible to lower-wage locations, whether less expensive states or less expensive countries. Business in California is booming, which is precisely what drives wages up. Companies leaving allows other new vibrant businesses to hire the old workers. The state isn't losing out at all. Compared with other countries, California by itself would have the 5th highest GDP in the world. It's a roaring success.
- koheripbal 6y agoThis is exactly why businesses should leave - they aren't wanted.
- refurb 6y agoThat's an interesting take on things. I would say that California has a strong economy in spite of it's government. Not because of it.
- Barrin92 6y agoAnd yet California's economy is larger than the bottom half of US states combined and the fifth-largest economy in the world if it was a sovereign country.
- DeonPenny 6y agoI would be so glib cause the people in almeda county and how local politics are so important this will be a problem. Tesla is a huge employer in almeda county and fremont. Not a lot of tech there.
- quotemstr 6y agoGood. California's lockdown is indefensible in light of new antibody evidence and ongoing economic carnage. Prediction: nobody gets arrested and production continues. Continued panic about the virus is driven largely by clickbait media and social media. These forces seem terrifying due to their volume and ability to cancel random individuals, but they wither in the fact of real threats to livelihoods. Sometimes, all that's needed to defeat a bully is standing up to him and saying "no". If California arrests Musk, it'll be the starkest example yet of the state punishing ambition and success while rewarding fear and mediocrity.
- socalnate1 6y agoOr, you know. Breaking the law.
- syshum 6y agoI wonder in what other contexts are you just a rules follower, and "law and order type" Do you believe the law is 100% correct and just all of the time, and that is never proper to challenge said laws... some times "breaking the law" is necessary for society to advance
- s_y_n_t_a_x 6y agoOdd statement given that Fremont is a sanctuary city. California also breaks the federal marijuana scheduling. Not saying I agree or disagree with either choice, but it seems we were already picking and choosing laws.
- camjohnson26 6y agoWhat is he gaining through acting like this? The county was on track to allow them to reopen on May 18, is an extra week of production really so important?
- lubujackson 6y agoIt is worth noting he just had a baby a few days ago. It may seem insane, but sudden parenthood can lead to weird behavior. All his recent Twitter insanity began right around the birth.
- libman 6y agoHe just became a POTUS contender for 2024.
- badRNG 6y agoI don't think much is gained from chronicling every episode in the saga of Musk's opposition to the quarantine. There always seem to be bitter flame wars in the comments section, and I don't think there's anything "deeply interesting" about Musk's week long rebellion.
- xiphias2 6y agoWhat's interesting to me is the market reaction: TSLA is close to all time highs. It seems to me like retail investors like the disobedience done by Elon.
- babesh 6y agoThe Bay Area health officials have formed a cabal to move the entire region in concert. This has first meant the joint statement extending the lockdown to June 1st. My speculation is that this also means that the whole area moves at the same rate as the slowest county. One Alameda County supervisor implies that perhaps he could have gotten them open by May 18th. I doubt that because the power to do so is not directly invested in the board but rather the county health officer. The health officer is acting in concert with the other counties health officers. The leader of this group is the Santa Clara health officer, Sara Cody, who has been credited with architecting the lockdown. The officer has been very vague about opening the counties up to phase 2, saying that it will be frustratingly slow (a). The officer points to insufficient testing and insufficient numbers of workers to contact trace (b). The officer said that they are weeks away from having enough workers to contact trace and that tests are only 20-25% towards the goal. My issue with the tests are that they are voluntary. There is probably no way to meet that goal unless you force people to test. You can tell by the number of tests in each county. It isn't really going up very fast (c). At present rate, you are talking about several months. The issue doesn't seem to be insufficient tests. It seems to be mostly that people aren't going in to get tested since the positivity rate is actually going down. I also think that the health officers want to work in concert since one county moving faster than the others will create pressure on the other counties to move at that rate. There is already such pressure since the rest of the state is already moving faster. A good percentage of the Bay Area is insulated from the effects of the lockdown since many can work from home. The big tech companies have been relatively unaffected by covid-19. Government employees are still being paid. However a good percentage are not insulated by the effects of the lockdown (although it has partly opened up). So based on the above, I expect the shit to hit the fan. (a) https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Sara-Cody-Bay-Area-shelter-place-reopen-order-safe-15262194.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Sara-Cody-B... (b) https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Bay-Area-reopen-shelter-place-why-COVID-19-SF-news-15254094.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Bay-Area-re... (c) https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard.aspx#cases https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard.aspx#ca...
- MiroF 6y ago> The issue doesn't seem to be insufficient tests. It seems to be mostly that people aren't going in to get tested since the positivity rate is actually going down. I don't think this is true, at all. Would love to see a source that testing right now is constrained by people unwilling to get tested and not by capacity to test.
- clamprecht 6y agohttp://archive.is/kMhZy http://archive.is/kMhZy
- sjg007 6y agoThe only people getting rich here will be the lawyers...
- arkitaip 6y agoPretty sure Musk will make a billion or two too...
- MiroF 6y agoDon't arrest Elon, just fine Tesla until doing this is unsustainable.
- Larrikin 6y agoWhy not both?
- johnnyo 6y agoWhy not both?
- thephyber 6y agoPersonally, I don't think we should arrest nearly as many people as we do. That said, if Elon were arrested, he may actually spend some of his time and resources to affecting change in the legal/justice sphere that he has largely avoided/flaunted thus far.
- macspoofing 6y agoBecause why create a media circus.
- davidw 6y agoBecause he would revel in the publicity like a pig in mud. Find a way to shut it down without the news images of Musk being carted away in a cop car - turn off the power or water or something.
- holler 6y agobecause I want to watch the Crew Dragon launch on May 27 still... CEO being in jail might not be the best optics
- FireBeyond 6y agoWell, maybe _Musk_ should think about that, rather than communities saying "Oh, we better go easy on him, his for-profit company has an important event coming up!"?
- DoofusOfDeath 6y agoIf Musk is actually on the wrong side of the law, I'd love to see him spend time in jail for this move.
- nickff 6y agoYou want to see him in jail even though you're not sure that he has done something that is both illegal and (ethically) wrong?
- echelon 6y ago>> If Musk is actually on the wrong side of the law, > You want to see him in jail even though you're not sure that he has done something that is both illegal and (ethically) wrong? You missed the conditional "If". > You want to see him in jail I think a lot of people are sick of seeing companies that break the law get by with just paying fines. Frequently on HN you see comments calling for Mark Zuckerberg to face jail time over privacy violations. It's stated that jail time would change his stance, whereas fines do nothing to curtail Facebook's behavior. The thought is that companies view fines as a slap on the wrist. Fines also tend to be smaller than the opportunity cost of making violations. Now that there's a disease going around that kills our old folks, it seems appropriate to call for punishment of those in power that knowingly violate the orders. This disobedience could actually take lives. This is a time when health and local government officials should be able to wield power.
- nickff 6y agoNobody should go to jail unless it the law was at least knowable; to do otherwise violates the principle of fair notice, a critical component of the rule of law. The fact that even the parent itself is not completely convinced that Tesla is breaking the law is telling of the fact that the state of the law is unclear.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- seph-reed 6y ago
- throwaway122378 6y agoGood for him. We should be allowed to reopen as easily as we were forced into our homes for 3 months.
- barneygale 6y agoIf this results in a /single/ death I hope he gets banged up.
- seph-reed 6y agoWhat does he get for a single saved life? EDIT: the flagged comment said a single death === beatings
- celticninja 6y agothe same as the rest of us, the knowledge that we can be respectful of others and not put our own selfish needs above the needs of society.
- M2Ys4U 6y ago>EDIT: the flagged comment said a single death === beatings "Banged up" can also mean put in jail (at least in British English) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banged_up#Adjective https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banged_up#Adjective
- seph-reed 6y agoAh. Sorry about that. That's a lot more reasonable.
- londons_explore 6y agoMusk getting arrested would get him far more headlines than the few hours in prison will cost him...
- grecy 6y agoElon's tweet[1]: "Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me." [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891
- xoxoy 6y agoThe county just released some statement that basically sounded like they wouldn’t take enforcement action https://twitter.com/acsosheriffs/status/1259974251286683648?s=21 https://twitter.com/acsosheriffs/status/1259974251286683648?...
- elicash 6y agoIt appears from this that the county has simply said Tesla’s reopen plan is insufficient. They aren’t opposed in principle to Tesla reopening.
- NoodleIncident 6y ago"we hope that Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement actions" To me, this suggests the opposite. They haven't enforced anything yet, but they still might
- adrianmonk 6y agoYeah, to me that sounds like they are insinuating that consequences may happen if their hope goes unfulfilled.
- koheripbal 6y agoTheir "phased approach" is a very long process that will likely extend into the period whereby everything reopens. It is essentially the same as doing nothing.
- xoxoy 6y agoThe official reopening date is like a week from now, so it’s basically an admission they will do nothing.
- londons_explore 6y agoYo me that reads like "we aren't going to do anything, unless a new case is found amongst your staff, in which case we're gonna fine you a lot"
- deleted 6y ago
- Traster 6y agoI don't see why this would be a problem. Just arrest anyone you find violating the orders. If I walked down to the local beach I would be arrested. I don't see why you would treat luxury goods retailers differently.
- thephyber 6y agoArrests just concentrate people in jails and cost the city/county money. Instead, cite them for the $1000 violation. Frequently.
- creddit 6y agoYou would not be arrested. At most you would be cited. It’s also on public lands where there is existing precedent for fining for something along the lines of trespassing. This is instead on private property and probably protected under free assembly.
- jedberg 6y ago> and probably protected under free assembly. The free assembly clause is specifically to allow you to assemble in protest against your government. It would be a bit of a stretch to call going to work a protest against your government.
- creddit 6y agoIt’s been interpreted much more broadly than that to expand to freedom of association which has been applied to labor rights for many decades. In this case, if it were to go toward the interpretation as protest, it might actually not be that unreasonable. Musk in many ways views it as protest afaict. All this said, IANAL.
- tick_tock_tick 6y agoWhen the government is forbidding it I don't see how that could be anything but a protest.
- geofft 6y ago
- maerF0x0 6y agoIMO the burden of proof should lie on the health officials to demonstrate TSLA's precautions and measures are insufficient. Then fine them if true. This order is like saying anyone who is drives (at any speed) is automatically exceeding the speed limit. In our laws we have an officer make an observance and provide some data to back it up (radar reading). TSLA should have the right to operate in a safe manner. There's nothing special about walking outside or getting groceries that make's it more/less safe than building a car, when sufficient protections are in place. Why should one group receive the right to continue operations while the other does not?
- ProAm 6y ago> IMO the burden of proof should lie on the health officials to demonstrate TSLA's precautions and measures are insufficient. Then fine them if true. They would have to do that for every business in CA (or the county), and are clearly not staffed or prepared for that yet.
- maerF0x0 6y agoI understand the immediate pragmatism, but if a gov't wants to make laws / rules it's on them to staff it functionally. We dont tell a restaurant they have to close because there are no health inspectors available. (I am assuming here, correct me if that's wrong)
- geofft 6y agoA better example would be if the government hired health inspectors who say "I saw a rat, you need to shut down" without also saying "Here is my peer-reviewed article about why rats are bad" - which they absolutely do.
- maerF0x0 6y agoBut within your own example you're missing the point that there is no one going to TSLA (afaik) to inspect the property to say "The way you're operating is insufficient" Instead they're deeming all possible operations as automatically insufficient. For example lets say, just for argument's sake, that every worker had some kind of full body hazmat suit and filtered positive pressured air supply. Would it still be not ok to build a car in such a condition? What makes it ok to operate a checkout stand (groceries) in not even close to such protections? The problem is the assumption of guilt w/o any means to continue operations--a perfectly legal thing otherwise-- even with appropriate measures in place.
- londons_explore 6y agoI wonder what the workers will be doing... Will they be making cars, or will they be unbolting everything that moves and putting it on a truck so they can start making cars in a tent in another county?
- dannyw 6y agoThe reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence driven. Tesla is running the factory at a 30-40% capacity, and the Fremont factory has 5.3 million square feet of manufacturing and office space. Tesla claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis. Tesla's full list is available here: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions. Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage. This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.
- foob4r 6y agoIt's great that they are promising that, but I'm just going to leave this here: https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man... Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined CEO Elon Musk once called California OSHA the 'most stringent' safety organization in the US.
- ProAm 6y agoI thought he was moving?
- nutjob2 6y agoI wonder what his story will be when families sue the company after employees die of the virus. I guess it will be "they didn't catch it here."
- dannyw 6y agoLikely no one will die, given: * the mandated, Tesla-supplied masks and face shields; * the 6 ft of social distance mandated across the entire process; * the fact that it is opening at 30-40% capacity; * the age of the factory workers, and the flu-like levels of CFR for young to medium aged workers The virus is going to be here with us for a long time. A vaccine isn't happening this year barring a divine-like miracle; it may not even happen next year or even ever. Coronavirus vaccines are very new for us. We cannot put the whole society, and the whole economy, on lockdown for 3 years. We need to reopen following all the safety protocols, but we need to reopen. If someone dies despite all the safety protocols taking place, then, well, it sucks. But the virus is here already.
- MiroF 6y agoWe need to get testing and contact tracing down before we re-open. You're right that we cannot wait for a vaccine.
- holler 6y agoI'm really still not sold on contact-tracing at all. What good does it do for me to find out that 10 people I crossed paths with today had covid? If a sizable number of people end up getting it etc, these apps are only going to serve to freak people out with anxiety and no one will use them. Id rather just assume I'm coming into contact with it when I leave my house, and then take necessary precautions.
- MiroF 6y ago> these apps are only going to serve to freak people out with anxiety and no one will use them. Not sure that it should necessarily be done by apps. But if you can find someone who has covid, identify their close contacts, and have them tested - then you can still catch a significant number of cases and put a dent in the disease's spread. These are things that mitigate the spread and have a substantial impact at the margin. I'd spend some time reading what the pros, like Trevor Bedford, are suggesting as a path forward, rather than just the headlines about Apple's new contact tracing app. Also, worth noting that other countries have successfully suppressed the virus.
- calimac 6y agoGo Musk!!!
- aazaa 6y ago> The chief executive announced the plans on Twitter Monday: “I will be on the line with everyone else,” he wrote. “If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me.” Translation: my employees now must weigh the consequences of losing their jobs on the one hand vs. being arrested on the other. What guarantees, if any, has Tesla has given its employees in the event of prosecution and or other consequences of violating state law?
- koheripbal 6y agoAll employees have been told that they may stay home if they aren't comfortable at all - full pay. This is entirely optional.
- mratzloff 6y agoEven if that were true (it is not, as far as I can tell), they would know that it will be tracked and could possibly be used against them later. Never make employees choose between a paycheck and following the law.
- koheripbal 6y agoIt's not true because it could possibly be used against them in the future? You're claiming it's definitely not true because MAYBE they might be punished? How is that a logical statement?
- mratzloff 6y agoNo, I'm saying I searched online and found nothing to corroborate your statement.
- fnord77 6y agoand catching a potentially fatal illness on the third hand. Yeah the risk is probably small now, but it is still a risk.
- 6y ago
- johnnyo 6y agoHow should an employee react in this situation? Your boss tells you to come to work, and the govt is saying your workplace should be closed. Can you fire someone for refusing to report when the county is supposed to be closed? What an awful spot to put your employees in. If you come in, you might get arrested, if you don’t, you might get fired.
- foob4r 6y agoTesla has said that employees that feel uncomfortable can stay at home, but that will be unpaid.
- monadic2 6y agoThat doesn’t sound like it would allow the employee to even apply for unemployment.... dirty.
- DenisM 6y agoIs it not exactly the same whether the factory is closed or not? If you are listed as an employee you're not getting the unemployment.
- kenhwang 6y agoVoluntary vs involuntary. You get unemployment if you're involuntarily out of work (laid off/furloughed/reduced hours). If you voluntarily chose not to work when offered, or at fault for termination, you're typically disqualified from unemployment.
- neuronexmachina 6y agoWould Tesla (or its insurers) be subject to civil liability if their employees are injured/killed as a result of COVID-19 contracted due to the order defiance?
- jeffbee 6y agoNobody will insure Tesla because it has a notorious sociopath at the helm. https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2020/05/01/567042.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2020/05/01/56...
- icelancer 6y agoNothing in that story indicates that is true. D&O insurance is incredibly expensive for everyone and also going up for everyone. Musk is self-insuring. This is not that uncommon.
- wnevets 6y agoJust a reminder Musk said this virus was no worse than the common cold. Musk also said the new cases would drop to 0 in April. How many times does someone have to be wrong before we can stop accepting their input on a subject?
- smallgovt 6y agoSource?
- ewoodrich 6y ago> Mr. Musk has also underestimated the severity of the virus. In January, he said the coronavirus “would be no worse than the common cold.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon-musk-tesla-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon... From Twitter on March 19: > Based on current trends, probably close to zero new cases in US too by end of April https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960?lang...
- wnevets 6y agodon't forget his tweet about children being "essentially immune" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208
- sudosysgen 6y agoHis Twitter account.
- rtsil 6y agoYou can look at his twitter account as far back as early March.
- corebit 6y agoSo did Vox, Washington Post, New York Times, and CNN. Nobody knew much in the beginning and that's completely fine and not a hit on anyone's credibility.
- slowrabbit 6y agoDon't arrest them, just fine them an obscene amount to make it unsustainable for them to stay open with the extra added cost.
- koheripbal 6y agoDo that, and they'll move the factory. Tesla already pay an obscene amount of money in taxes. ...oh, and fines are tax deductible.
- slowrabbit 6y agoDon't arrest them, just fine them an obscene amount to make it unsustainable for them to stay open with the extra cost.
- seanonymous 6y agoThis is a brilliant move on Musk's part to ingratiate himself with the Dodge Ram crowd and sell more Cybertrucks in the red states. Well played, sir. Well played.
- amiga_500 6y agoAnd the Dodge Ram crowd are easily influenced. > I see you have a normal car there, how would you like a far more expensive car, with way less fuel efficiency, and storage you don't need. Oh by the way "real men" buy them.
- throwaway391003 6y agolol wow
- amiga_500 6y agoCars are very, very often sold using sex or sexually appealing stereotypes. Hardly anyone in most cities had a truck like this. Now loads of people do, because they were told by advertising people that it would be a good idea. It was not the purchasers idea to create this car. And all at a time of pollution as a huge problem.
- c0nducktr 6y agoEveryone wants to believe they're somehow above the influence of advertising, while a large percentage still earn their income working for ad companies. To them: If advertising doesn't work, what's your company selling? A lie?
- amiga_500 6y agoYes. I suspect that flagged poster had recently bought a truck to plug some gap in his masculine confidence! The truck thing is nuts. They are so big now that you cannot see an eight year old child for several metres from the grill, because the front is taller than a child. They are more polluting. Noisier. Really they are, for society, most unwelcome. And yet they ran adverts that said people should buy them. And they did. And they paid a premium over and above what many people save in a year.
- coliveira 6y agoTesla is putting their own employees in danger of being arrested. This is completely immoral behavior.
- koheripbal 6y agoNo one's getting arrested. The city already replied that they aren't going to do anything.
- sfj 6y agoA company doesn't have a moral responsibility for its employees. You either work for crazy ass corp X or you don't. Morality is the government's job.
- c0nducktr 6y ago> Morality is the government's job. https://i.imgur.com/ztaZbMZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ztaZbMZ.jpg ^ That's where that line of thought leads.
- sfj 6y agoIt's certainly not the job of corporations to save us, which is what I was getting at. Corps were around when Hitler rose to power, too.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y agoSo Musk tweeted "If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me," but that really doesn't seem reasonable (and is super arrogant). If I pressure some friends into committing a crime, they are still culpable. Assuming wikipedia's accurate [0], duress is only a valid excuse if someone's threatening you with serious bodily harm or death. 'I would like you all to commit crimes, and I ask the government to not hold you responsible,' is so arrogant. He doesn't get to dictate how the law works. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law#Requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law#Require...
- astronautjones 6y ago"atlas shrugged, performatively"
- fatbird 6y agoThis is beautiful.
- bpodgursky 6y agoPerforative shrugging would be shutting down production for a week, just to show the impact, but restarting before any damage was done. Elon is, by the book, refusing to shrug.
- ashtonkem 6y agoDepends on what you think he’s performatively shrugging about, profits or risks to his workers. The context makes it pretty clear that they were talking about legal risks to the workers, while you’re referencing profits.
- krick 6y agoI know that I must be missing a great joke here, so can somebody be so kind to translate this post for me?
- deleted 6y ago
- dang 6y agoThe threads on this so far: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517
- balladeer 6y agoI often notice you listing other (dup?) threads on a broader topic. Is it just an informative exercise as in - "people, check out these too", or more like something frustrating - "why start so many threads!"?
- dang 6y ago100% the former. And yet it often comes across as the latter. I'm still looking for a brief way to express this that's clear. Sometimes I disambiguate like this: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22for%20the%20curious%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... I wonder if "from the archives" would be clearer?
- 609venezia 6y ago"See also" (from the legal blue book) seems like a natural indicator. As applied here it could be as simple as: << See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674 ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 >> The links already indicate that the pointers are to previous Hacker News threads, so no need to specify that part. If you want to use you "from the archives" language it could be something like "see also from the archives"
- HarryHirsch 6y agoSuppose there is an outbreak at the Tesla plant as there has been at that Smithfield plant in Sioux Falls or the Tyson plant in Wilkesboro? What happens next?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jcims 6y agoJust curious if there are folks in countries outside of the US or maybe even little Internet backwaters within the US that observe a public discourse that is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff we seem to have here in the states? For example, people publicly admitting that policy makers have difficult decisions in front of them, that both the health impact AND economic impact are crucial to consider, and maybe even collaborative, if lay, efforts to create a framework for resuming normalcy?
- mrfusion 6y agoJust health. Who cares about the rich people and the stock market.
- umanwizard 6y agoRich people will be fine. Economic downturns primarily hurt the poor and middle classes. "The economy" isn't some abstract thing that produces random stock market numbers. It's everyone's livelihood.
- jcims 6y agoSchadenfreude for billionaires definitely seems to be driving some of the vitriol.
- endogui 6y agoHealth and food supply are both parts of the economy, unless you trust the Feds to set up rationing. Which is not to defend the managers who are pushing for things to open when they don't have front-line exposure.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoIs there some other country where nobody's loud and passionate about the worst global crisis since World War II? I doubt it.
- throwaway17_17 6y ago
- rosywoozlechan 6y agoGood for him. Health officials always picking the course with the ultimate amount of caution possible at any cost seems to be winning quite a bit and it's nice to see some push back. When Governor Cuomo says you can't put a price on a life he is 100% incorrect, that's not how the world works. The economic cost of the shelter in place is expected to be worth it for about 12 weeks only according to NPR Marketplace and Bloomberg. Hopefully, it will soon be time that we get back to work. At least those of us who want to, or even better those of us who need to so we can feed our families.
- bathtub365 6y agoMaybe Elon will feel the economic cost of endangering public health by being fined.
- rosywoozlechan 6y agoFor doing what he's already doing in another California county?
- bathtub365 6y agoYes
- jmpeax 6y agoIf I ever start a company, I'll do it in USA. There, the pigs push past each other to be first to the slaughterhouse.
- bubmiw 6y ago2 new cults have formed, covid doomers and the covid hoaxers . Very strange how same hyper partisan tendencies of far right and left are present in this new cult dynamic .
- GhostVII 6y agoI actually agree with some of what Elon is saying around COVID - it is probably reasonable for the Tesla factory to open up partially this week, and shelter in place has gone on for too long without any proper justification in many areas. But his reasoning and actions surrounding this are completely insane. He spreads conspiracy theories about hospitals overcounting cases for profit, says that COVID is just like the flu, predicted no cases by the end of April, and then does this and opens up without approval, violating the law. His fans seem to think he is some kind of genius, but based on what he has said about COVID he doesn't really seem that smart, or at least not well informed at all. Just by looking at the deaths year over year, it is clear that if anything, COVID cases are undercounted. And his claims that the shutdown of his factory are illegal are blatantly false. I don't know if he just doesn't know what he is talking about, or if he does and is just saying all this stuff for his personal gain. I suspect the former, but idk. This seems like a somewhat common pattern, where very successful and seemingly intelligent people have a few very obviously incorrect beliefs (ex. Steve Jobs and his fruit diet). Maybe they assume that success in one area implies knowledge in unrelated areas (I know I am guilty of this myself sometimes).
- x3n0ph3n3 6y ago> He spreads conspiracy theories about hospitals overcounting cases for profit It's not conspiracy, it's misaligned incentives. It _is_ happening. No matter how you die in a hospital, if you test positive for COVID-19, you are often marked as a COVID-related death, which affects how much aid that hospital gets. Given that hospitals are struggling financially as they are being avoided by everyone else, there is a strong incentive to do this.
- GhostVII 6y agoTo expand on that, I don't disagree that it could be happening in some cases. But I think it is very misleading to use it as a way to say that COVID is not as bad as we say. It is clear by the increase in deaths year-over-year that the death counts we are getting are roughly in line with what is being reported. Maybe "conspiracy theory" is a bit strong, but I absolutely think it is an invalid reason for downplaying the virus given that we can clearly see many more people are dying than last year in the same time period.
- natch 6y agoI wonder how many people freaking out about Elon’s actions and still driving ICE cars don’t ponder that this whole pandemic episode, even if it goes on for years and kills millions of people, is just a tiny blip compared to what’s coming from global climate change. I mean further pandemics are just one of the problems climate change is going to bring. This is just a teaser. Keeping this in mind helps set a perspective for why he sees this as a mission. If you still think he is being irresponsible, consider the data he shared, and the larger picture. Maybe... just maybe... he has more information than you do.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoWhat information does he have that elected officials around the world do not? Maybe he’s motivated by profit/success, I doubt he cares that much about the environment.
- natch 6y agoTo answer your question, he has pretty direct information about his employees and his suppliers in China.
- chillwaves 6y agoThe information he has offered (it is no worse than the flu, the the number of cases will drop to 0 by end of April) have been so egregiously wrong, it is only reasonable to question the rest of his judgment.
- natch 6y agoI was more talking about the hard data, like the number of COVID deaths of Tesla employees in China (zero) and the wide delta between the projected flattened curve here and the actual flattened curve. Also, misquoting is a thing. I don’t think you can find the original source of your quote. He did say something similar prefaced with “my best guess.” When I used the word “data” I did mean data, not misquoted guesses from months ago.
- dave5104 6y ago
- mrfusion 6y agoAnother angle to this too. Global warming is also a pressing problem. Every day tesla is closed we’re not taking ICE vehicles off the road.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoICE manufacturers have roughly the same rules globally. Every new car, tesla or otherwise is killing the environment. Some more than others but the impact of creating new vehicles far exceeds that of alternative forms of transport.
- dr_ 6y agoPerhaps Tesla can reopen safely - if Amazon can run warehouses why shouldn’t they be able to manufacture cars? The issue I personally have is that his personal comments, from twitter and from interview (Rogan) suggests that he is questioning how serious Covid is in general and that people have the right to do live how they choose with little regard for how that may affect those around them. He claims that patients with covid like symptoms, but without an official diagnosis, are being counted as covid patients, implying that they shouldn’t be (not true - most are designated under investigation until results are available or, in the early days, there simply weren’t enough tests available). Or that if one has covid, but also has another medical condition that was the cause of death, it should not be attributed to covid (again wrong, in many cases chronic conditions are controlled, until the virus wrecks havoc on the body). Why would he be doing this? Because by questioning the seriousness of it, a push can be made to open the economy at large, which in many places and environments is still not safe. After all, what is the point of manufacturing Tesla’s if there aren’t enough people there to buy them?
- MiroF 6y ago> Perhaps Tesla can reopen safely - if Amazon can run warehouses why shouldn’t they be able to manufacture cars? I think it more has to do with the necessity of the service versus the risk undertaken. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a grocery store worker is at less risk than a Tesla factory worker - the suggestion is that perhaps people need the grocery store more than they need a new Model 3.
- insickness 6y agoThere's construction going on next door to my apartment building in Brooklyn, an area code where 50%+ are testing positive for covid antibodies. There's no reason that would be safer than an auto plant, if anything it is less so.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- otterley 6y ago
- salimmadjd 6y agoI have to side with Musk here. I want to see what everything Tesla is doing to protect their employees and if they are following a subset of the below guidelines that I've listed. Temperature check at entrance, mask requirement, strict hand sanitization, etc. Then let Musk commercialize the process of opening up businesses. Some background: I followed Corona (COVID19 now) from late January very closely and read most published papers. I strongly supported the "flattening of the curve" and encouraged the lockdown and we practiced/and practice strict social distancing. That being said, hearing countering arguments from various scientist (2013 Noble prize winner [0]). The Swedish epidemiologist [1]. That the lockdown makes no sense unless we are going to have a vaccine when we come out of the lockdown. Remember, the initial lockdown was mostly argued for flattening the curve (in addition to maybe it worked in China lets follow them). If you look at the curves (flattened vs. spiked) they have near the same areas, meaning those original scientist who argued for it, never argued the lockdown was going to reduce the net infection by COVID but to slow it down to help the health care system gear up and also not get overwhelmed (lack of rooms, ventilators, etc.) That being said, we can copy some smart and common sense stuff from places like Taiwan (I've spoken to people who live in Taiwan and life is almost back to normal but they just wear masks in public) that has allowed them open up and I'm hoping Tesla is learning from these practices. What we have not heard from our governor (feels like many of his stuff is partially motivated by planning for a 2024 presidential run) or county officials a clear pathway to opening up. Here's what I want to hear from them: 1 - we are distributing masks to every house. 2 - we are requiring mask in all public places or when you're passing by anyone within 1 car length (6 feet is hard to visualize) 3 - we are distributing hand sanitizers to every public facing business. 4 - we are requiring all credit card terminals to be touch-less or any customer using it, must apply hand sanitizer before and after using it. 5 - we'll start deploying IR thermometers to malls and large public facing businesses (Costco, Safeway ) and will test for temperature. 6 - Take extra measures to protect the seniors and elderly. Continue to have senior-only operation hours (at Costco, etc.) everyone working in adult care facility needs to be tested and monitored. 7- Daily PSA by local TV/radio in English, Spanish, Chinese...how to best sanitize your hands, how to best use mask and how to effectively maintaining social distancing even with mask. 8 - Ticket/fine those who are not wearing mask. Maybe the first offense is a warning if they don't have a mask and the police office will hand them a mask. I've seen some of these, but not a in concrete single articulated plan of execution with timeline. Right now most policies are made with bad data. Not statical sampling of confirmed COVID (though it's changing [2]) but rather raw numbers. It's obvious the more you test the more confirmed cases you'll get. Everyday, you hear about how numbers are increasing (that might be true, but it's not really scientific) Where as statistical sampling would tell us what percentage of the population is infected and if the infection spreading or staying flat. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl-sZdfLcEk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl-sZdfLcEk [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTXgbN6uB1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTXgbN6uB1I
- s5300 6y agoToday I'm reminded: An amount of HN-goers larger than one may imagine both have an unusually large hate-boner towards Elon Musk (what, jealousy or something...?) and, also, somehow not surprisingly, have just about no idea of how U.S. law works/is written. Maybe we should start suggesting a little less leetcode to get a job somewhere that tries to push every bound of the law they seem to think should already be shittier, and a little more time reading over civics, like a dutiful citizen arguably should.
- lozenge 6y agoMaybe we think his actions deserve hate? "Pedo guy" for example? "Cases will go to zero, reopen America"?
- bloodorange 6y ago"autopilot" as well.
- ashtonkem 6y agoI would assume that this increases legal liability in a pretty severe way. It’s still unclear what kind of liability employers might face if employees get sick on the job, but surely opening open in direct defiance to a county order makes the situation much, much worse.
- telaelit 6y agoElon is just another entitled rich person. He got his wealth from mommy and daddy when they exploited workers during apartheid in South Africa. Now he wants to exploit workers in the middle of a pandemic just a few days after having a baby. The dude has no empathy for his workers or child and just wants money.
- namesbc 6y agoElon Musk is incredibly stupid, and for the good of Tesla the board should kick him out. Tesla and Alameda County agreed to a plan to re-open on May 18th. Elon Musk should have stuck with that plan. Now he has increased the odds of his employees catching a deadly virus, getting the factory shutdown for longer, all while putting the company at increased legal risk.
- krick 6y agoI don't think he is really that stupid. I am balancing between two opinions now: - He has gone really, actually crazy - He knows that Tesla is on the edge of bancruptcy and is intentionally trying to get kicked out of Tesla before it happens, while keeping the image of being a hero and avoiding the financial responsibility I would be sure it is 2, except to a non-lawyer like me it seems he is doing things that actually can put him in jail now. So I don't know.
- luckydata 6y agothey do have SEVERE cash flow issues, but like pretty much everything Elon does, it could have been handled better. Considering the days where Tesla was small enough to be managed by an inexperienced CEO are way in the past, I really wish Tesla got some more professional top management. They REALLY need their own Satya Nadella to right that ship.
- OrgNet 6y agoput him in jail and forget about it?
- 54351623 6y agoIf I was a Tesla employee I'd strike for quadruple pay and benefits. If Musk is willing to go to prison to get his factory up and running surly he'd be willing to give his employees pretty hefty raises.
- kthxbye123 6y agoHe's actually not willing to go to prison - he has infinite money and lawyers, he'd never do a day. What he is willing to do is sacrifice the health and safety of his workers for a little more money. If he could get away with hiring Pinkertons to break the knees of striking workers he absolutely would.
- 54351623 6y agoThat's a good point I guess he'd just be stuck with firing them and moving the factory, oh wait... Or maybe he'll just pick up some cheap foreign labor, oh wait..... Maybe just replace them with automation, oh wait ..............
- tanilama 6y agoI am generally in approval of CA government's handling in this pandemic, however, I don't think there is value in waiting any longer for reopening to start. Why? To me it is obvious that the pandemic won't stopping from spreading at the end of May. And the nation level self-quarantine/shelter-in-place order now, is now failed and discarded by the many state government and federal government alike. Keep closing at this point feels pointless and endless, and it won't resolve the situation at all.
- crazygringo 6y agoIt's frustrating there are no real details on this. From one article: > Alameda County officials said they were "communicating directly and working closely with the Tesla team on the ground in Fremont" in a "collaborative, good faith effort to develop and implement a safety plan" to reopen while protecting workers' health. Meanwhile, Tesla sued the county, claiming it had no legal right to shut down the plant... Alameda County says it is expecting Tesla to submit its safety plan for approval, and that until that approval the company cannot resume normal production. [1] On the one hand, at face value (and based on his previous words/actions), it appears like Elon's being uncooperative for the sake of it -- that he could have reopened anyways if he'd just chosen to work together with the county, instead of demanding his own way based on the principle of the thing. His stubborness is just a terrible way to do business. On the other hand, we also don't know if the county was demanding unreasonable things, delaying re-opening as payback for Elon's previous tempertantrums (or other reasons), or why it's not just "going along" with the more general state-wide opening. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any reporting whatsoever at that level of nuance. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/11/854217730/elon-musk-reopens-california-tesla-plant-defying-local-health-officials-again https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
- obelos 6y agoWe don’t have a public health crisis. We have a billionaire crisis.
- koheripbal 6y agoKeep printing tons of money and soon we'll have millions of them.
- MarkMc 6y agoThe comparisons with Rosa Parks are a bit rich. By refusing to stand on the bus, Parks did not make millions of dollars or put other people's lives at risk.
- dangjc 6y agoGovernor Newsom is in the process of lifting shelter in place. Manufacturing is one thing that should be opening up. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-04/california-reopening-coronavirus-gavin-newsom-phases-begin-retail-pickup https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-04/californ...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hkai 6y agoThat's what bravery looks like. Oh, and money.
- alephnan 6y agoHas anyone considered Elon Musk plans to run for president in the future and this is one way to challenge the establishment?
- DuskStar 6y agoPretty sure he can't run for president for the same reason that Schwarzenegger couldn't - he isn't a natural-born US citizen.
- KKKKkkkk1 6y agoI like the measured and thoughtful response of the Alameda County Sheriff's office. Letting the situation de-escalate instead of making it worse. https://twitter.com/ACSOSheriffs/status/1259974251286683648 https://twitter.com/ACSOSheriffs/status/1259974251286683648 Makes you think how come such measured response is made to Elon flagrantly breaking the law, but wasn't shown to Oscar Grant: According to court testimony and video of the incident, [officer] Pirone pulled Grant and his friends off the train so aggressively that other riders loudly objected. Pirone got physical at least two more times with Grant, kneeing him and pulling him violently to the concrete platform. At one point, apparently angry at being called a profane name, Pirone leaned in close to Grant and shouted back at him, “Bitch-ass n—, right? Bitch-ass n—, right?” https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/10-years-since-Oscar-Grant-s-death-What-13489585.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/10-years-since-O...
- vadym909 6y agoI would have no problem with Elon deciding to launch himself with a rocket, but I'm worried about workers who don't have an option and are doing it because they have to. The only thing I can think of to offset this risk is that Elon commits to pay $1M or a lifelong salary to the dependents of any worker that does catch the Covid-19 due to working during these times and dies (or infects their at-home relative who die) and lifelong health insurance should tey fall sick and be unable to work.
- merpnderp 6y agoPeople seem to be ignoring that the forced shutdown was based on models that have proven completely and utterly wrong. The actual data turned out to be several times better than the best possible scenario of a Wuhan style lockdown. Saying the shutdown worked is meaningless, because what are you even comparing it to? Musk is absolutely right that the models we shut down over were based on were astrology.
- kbos87 6y agoI guess my curiosity is why Elon Musk feels like he is entitled to defy the law when any of the other businesses mentioned here wouldn’t dare. Jailtime for him, or why should anyone obey?
- fellowniusmonk 6y agoOk. Can I get someone to look over this research? It looks like Tesla is actually complying with the law and the _County_ public health org is contradicting a strategic federal & state order. Specifically they are contradicting the Executive Order Gavin Newsom made which is what empowers and dictates which industries should close and which are strategically required to remain open. If you look at this executive order which is both empowering the CA shutdown and dictates which industries are required infrastructure and MUST stay open, the rules and regulations to be followed are at the State level, and no additional empowerment to create superseding rules at the city or county level were created: https://covid19.ca.gov/img/Executive-Order-N-33-20.pdf https://covid19.ca.gov/img/Executive-Order-N-33-20.pdf Relevant part of Executive Order (Bold): "On March 19, 2020, Governor Newsom issued Executive Order N-33-20 directing all residents immediately to heed current State public health directives to stay home, except as needed to maintain continuity of operations of essential critical infrastructure sectors and additional sectors as the State Public Health Officer may designate as critical to protect health and well-being of all Californians." Furthermore, the State requirements for critical infrastructure that must remain open included "Workers at transportation manufacturing facilities": https://covid19.ca.gov/img/EssentialCriticalInfrastructureWorkers.pdf https://covid19.ca.gov/img/EssentialCriticalInfrastructureWo... I don't see how Elon Musk is breaking the Executive Order, in fact based on these documents it looks like county officials are overstepping and illegally shutting down something that has been explicitly earmarked as strategically protected, can someone provide additional links or order I may not have been able to find?
- uHm3da 6y agoGiven the Musk hate spiking up over how he seems to be going a bit off the rails this is a pretty easy sell to get on the hate train for him doing this. At the same time, I know people in California who are building up debt they'll have to repay while not being allowed to work. That companies aren't paying them and for various reasons unemployment aren't an option. It's not much better in my state. The biggest factor in if I would agree with Musk on this is if Tesla has been singled out. I'm a bit out of the loop on my ability to cross reference things here, but are there any other Automakers in Alameda county? Are they shut down as well? If no to either of those then I can see why it does seem like government overreach. I say this as someone with preexisting conditions who is still working during the outbreak and has been deemed essential by Local, State, and Federal. I also say it as someone who works at a job site that had similar "Bring your own PPE" rules, and only put them in place last week despite us working non stop. We've had around a dozen people in my office with scares who were tested, nobody has come back positive yet, at least by what is claimed. From my perspective, if that's true, it is possible to work safely. From reading other comments on the plans Tesla has it sounds like Musk will do more than my work about this...
- exabrial 6y agoAs an advocate for science, I'm fine with this. They're going above and beyond to protect workers vs Home Depot or other "necessary" businesses. There needs to be scientific, evidenced-based approach, not some "Obey" approach
- fasteddie31003 6y agoThis man is a genius. Businesses put food in my stomach not government. Thank god.
- greendave 6y ago> "We are addressing this matter using the same phased approach we use for other businesses which have violated the order in the past, and we hope that Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement measures." Looks like yet again, Elon Musk will get special treatment. Small restaurants in Sutter and Yuba county were threatened with revocation of their liquor licenses for opening contrary to health regulations[1]. Yet Musk violates those regulations and the local officials express 'hope' that he will follow the rules? Laws once again are for little people. [1] https://la.eater.com/2020/5/7/21250785/california-restaurants-alcohol-license-revoke-coronavirus-dining-room-closures https://la.eater.com/2020/5/7/21250785/california-restaurant...
- Ice_cream_suit 6y agoI had assumed that sufficient money and connections provide immunity from the law only in facade democracies and banana republics. It appears that that sufficient money and connections provide immunity from the law in America too.
- TomMarius 6y agoSorry to break it to you, but USA is regarded as number one facade democracy/banana republic around the world. Many people regarded it as such before Trump, but it really exploded after he got in office.
- beshrkayali 6y agoIt's pretty much obvious now that the lock down that the world (except Sweden) has been under is about 45 to 75 percent based on faulty predictions, fear, and other types of BS. The problem is that no one is willing to hear anything other than the narrative they've been spooned up over the last couple of weeks, and any attempt at resisting irrationality is met with hostility and accusations of extreme-conspiratorial thinking. Yes, it's stupid to keep the lock down. Yes, it's stupid to wear masks if you're not feeling sick or you hang around people at risk. Yes, it's stupid to stop people from taking a walk in the park or going to the beach, or even having a party if that's what the heck they want to do.
- mrtweetyhack 6y agoGet ready for the lawsuits
- kome 6y agorubber barons doing what they want despite and against the law... USA is acting like a failed state, or a banana republic.
- notastudent 6y agoFuck HN. I'm outta here
- tusharpandey13 6y agoHN usually acts like an old, intellectual, know-it-all-seen-it-all programmer grandpa that somehow knows all that the fields of computer science and philosophy have to offer. But this thread show what it actually is. A glorified reddit.
- kova12 6y agowe live in time when rational thinking has absolutely no weight in face of emotional reaction. Businesses are not here to upheld rationality, but rather to make money, and as such it's easier to adopt public idiocy than to fight it. I am very glad that there is Musk out there, and as a token of appreciation I will be considering to support him by buying Tesla.
- 2008guy 6y agoJust for some context, Tesla has been approved to reopen in other places in CA. The reason why musk is doing this is because he thinks given the context, what the county is doing is illegal. Also, all the other auto makes have been greenlit. So musk has a point.
- Houshalter 6y agoThe average age of death of coronavirus victims was about 10 months younger than the average age of death of non-coronavirus victims. So if you die it takes 1 year off your life expectancy. And maybe 1% of people will die that are infected (and lets assume everyone will be infected.) So coronavirus decreases your life expectancy by 3 and a half days. For comparison, sitting in front of a TV for multiple hours a day (as many people have been relegated to doing) decreases your life expectancy by 6 years. Smoking is 8 years. Owning a car and driving it regularly is a few weeks IIRC.
- sfj 6y agoThe math doesn't work, because you are forgetting those that died already that if they had lived, would have been a coronavirus victim. It's survivorship bias. For example, let's say the mean age was exactly 75 y.o., and that the coronavirus killed 100% of people 75 y.o. or older and 0% less than 75. By your logic, it would have no effect at all. Another example, again with a 75 y.o. life expectancy, suppose it killed 100% of people 80 y.o. or over and none under. By your logic, being infected by coronavirus would add 5 years to your life expectancy.
- Houshalter 6y agoEven in your extreme example all of the deaths would have to be extremely old people to work out like that. People that statistically have very very few years left. And for your extreme example to be true, it would have to be the case that the disease doesn't discriminate healthy from weak. But still somehow only kills old people. Because if the disease does discriminate healthy from weak, all of the deaths would be those that would die soon anyway. Then you must divide whatever estimate you get from that by one hundred. Assuming the highest estimates that it kills around 1% of the victims, which I think are bit high. I don't see any possible way you could run the numbers and get more than 2 weeks lowered life expectancy. There just are so few young deaths, and the total death rate is very low.
- sfj 6y ago> Even in your extreme example all of the deaths would have to be extremely old people to work out like that. People that statistically have very very few years left. > And for your extreme example to be true, it would have to be the case that the disease doesn't discriminate healthy from weak. But still somehow only kills old people. Because if the disease does discriminate healthy from weak, all of the deaths would be those that would die soon anyway. You do realize these are contrived examples to show errors in your math? They aren't suppositions about the actual true death rate of the coronavirus. > Then you must divide whatever estimate you get from that by one hundred. Assuming the highest estimates that it kills around 1% of the victims, which I think are bit high. > I don't see any possible way you could run the numbers and get more than 2 weeks lowered life expectancy. There just are so few young deaths, and the total death rate is very low. I don't think you can "run the numbers", because the data you're using isn't enough to come to any conclusion. Unless you have data that breaks down deaths by age group, and data that breaks down deaths by age normally, you can't answer this question, as far as I know. If you think there is only 2 weeks lowered life expectancy or less, you haven't shown that.
- chx 6y agoElon Musk has questioned the rule of law and he is getting away with it. USA, 2020: laws do not apply to rich white guys and do not protect poor blacks. Not that this is anything new. Here's what Google says about the rule of law for Americans and Canadians. I didn't even need to click the results, just screenshot the result snippets. https://i.imgur.com/TO2XUco.jpg https://i.imgur.com/TO2XUco.jpg Somehow it magically becomes not difficult to define the moment you cross the 49th parallel.
- gulli1010 6y agodo the employees get a choice if they dont feel safe working in the environment?
- panpanna 6y agoSo, if people get infected and die... will that open Tesla to lawsuits?
- dragonwriter 6y agoViolating a state or county public health order in California is itself a misdemeanor punishable by jail, whether or not anyone gets infected or dies.
- panpanna 6y agoYeah, but ignoring all that... what do the big shareholders think of this?
- tonetheman 6y agoWhat a fucking joke. Must get back to work to make our quarter for the share holders. Elon Musk is a horrible human.
- perseusprime11 6y agoBookmark this comment. A week or two from now, we will hear covid+ cases at this factory. This is not going to be a great decision.
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