31 ms·

Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

558 points by uncertainquark 6y ago

chrisma0 6y ago
Good to see that I am not alone at being upset about the current snap vs. deb vs. flatpak Ubuntu situation. I always considered a unified package management system as a huge plus.
- Glavnokoman 6y ago
  I do not understand that. Why being upset? If you do not like Ubuntu just install some other distro and be done with it. There are many out there! Fedora, Arch (Manjaro) and even plain Debian are all much better then Ubuntu these days.
  - lonelappde 6y ago
    It's exausting to switch every time an upgrade is a betrayal
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    It is not straightforward to switch distros and maintain your setup. You have to set aside at least a day for it.
hedora 6y ago
The last time I installed the Ubuntu, I noticed gnome calculator took over a second to start in a VM on a new >$2500 laptop. I switched to a .deb, and it was instantaneous. Then I switched back to devuan and have been happy since.
- aritmo 6y ago
  The calculator was a snap in Ubuntu 18.04 as an experiment.
  - JonoBB 6y ago
    Ah, this makes sense now! I've always wondered why the calculator (of all apps) was by far the slowest to start on 18.04 for me.
  - MattPalmer1086 6y ago
    I was wondering why the calculator took so long to start on 18.04. I thought there was some problem with my system. Doesn't bode well for 20.04. I've been with Ubuntu for a very long time, I like that it just works most of the time. May be time to try out another distro if all the applications are this sluggish.
    - jandrese 6y ago
      The good news is that 18 is one of the super-LTS releases, so you don't have to upgrade until 2028.
- m0xte 6y ago
  A good time to ask I suppose: Is Devuan stable and does it carry security updates and package repositories equivalent to normal Debian? If so I'll probably switch myself.
  - petre 6y ago
    It largely uses debian packages, so it gets the same uodates. Only packages that require systemd are modified by the devuan maintainers to run w/o it.
- jandrese 6y ago
  Yeah, it's almost as bad as the calculator in Window 10. It's completely ridiculous for ANY calculator app to take that long to load on a modern PC.
  - philliphaydon 6y ago
    What’s wrong with the windows one? It’s instant and it calculates things?!?
    - umvi 6y ago
      IIRC it tries to connect to the internet in the background to download currency exchange rates
    - CarVac 6y ago
      It takes a couple seconds to start the first time you launch it. Very much not instant.
      - lonelappde 6y ago
        What about the second time?
        BenjiWiebe 6y ago
        Then it's in cache.
    - firmnoodle 6y ago
      Yeah, I'm confused as well. I just tried Calc on win10 for the first time in weeks or months and it opened before I could count 2 seconds. This is from a SSD where it won't have been in cache.
      - jandrese 6y ago
        2 seconds isn't instant.
thedevelopnik 6y ago
Was going to suggest he try Pop, glad to see he already is! Solves the problem while being excellent in every other way.
- risho 6y ago
  I think that Pop has a bit of a branding issue. It has the reputation of an os with training wheels for newbies and gamer bros, but it is actually an all around great OS for anyone. It's a great gnome experience out of the box with all of the benefits of using Ubuntu with none of the nonsense. I'm hoping to see it gain popularity with the broader linux community. Everyone who used traditional ubuntu and isn't happy with the direction it's headed should really give Pop OS a shot.
dopeboy 6y ago
> I hate that Chromium’s snap takes more than 10 seconds to load on cold boot on a freaking SSD, whereas .deb and Flatpak apps load in 1-2 seconds. Can someone verify this? As someone who will eventually upgrade to 20.04, this is concerning.
- yissp 6y ago
  It takes about 5 seconds for me off an NVMe SSD. For comparison Firefox (installed with apt) starts in under a second.
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    Yes it starts in about 3~4 seconds for me. The only reason it doesn't bother me is that I normally use Firefox.
- aritmo 6y ago
  Clean install, Ubuntu 20.04. Chromium starts in around a second.
  - wolco 6y ago
    Whatever you do don't install anything else.
  - mayama 6y ago
    Same here. Upgrade to 20.04, but fresh install of chromium. Starts in 2sec in plain old HDD.
  - fstephany 6y ago
    Is it installed as a Snap? From what I understood, only the first start is slow. Once the virtual disk had been decompressed, subsequent launches are much faster.
- Matt3o12_ 6y ago
  Apparently, snaps are compressed to save disk space, which is why they take so long to start: - https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/9scoif/snap_packages_are_very_slow_to_load_in_ubuntu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/9scoif/snap_package... Saving disk space is certainly useful for rarely used apps, however, your web browser (and any other frequencely used apps), shouldn't be compressed, especially if there is ample disk space.
finnjohnsen2 6y ago
this is one of those; ignorance is bliss. i havent noticed snap being slower and now I risk noticing and getting annoyed over it.
- aritmo 6y ago
  Someone told my sister about the RF radiation risks of WiFi and now she "has headaches".
- m45t3r 6y ago
  Yeah, startup times is something that you don't really notice until you have a system that is really fast and responsive, and them you simply get annoyed by when you're using a system with slow startup times again or get accustomed again with the slowness. Startup times didn't bother me too much, but nowadays it does, specially for things that my brain assumes that should be fast. This is why, for example, both my Neovim and Zsh configuration is tuned to start in <0.1s: time zsh -c exit zsh -c exit 0.00s user 0.00s system 84% cpu 0.007 total time nvim -c qall nvim -c qall 0.07s user 0.02s system 100% cpu 0.081 total It does makes a massive difference, for example spawning a new shell is instantaneous and when I know that I will make some small changes I much prefer to open a file in Neovim than Emacs (my main editor/IDE nowadays).
ordinaryperson 6y ago
Maybe I'm in the minority but I like Snaps. I wish all software would auto-update silently in the background -- when's the last time you even thought about upgrading Chrome? The author of this article claims it's too difficult to find Flatpak apps and that the Ubuntu software center prioritizes Snaps over .deb. Are platforms never allowed to migrate to a new standard? Why is it Canonical's fault that authors of individual applications have yet to migrate Snaps? If we all agree that on the whole auto-updating software is generally better and more secure than manually updated software, why not single out the applications that haven't migrated instead of blaming the whole standard? Maybe I'm just naive and not doing advanced super user stuff these Snap haters are doing but from a distance to me this resembles the systemd vs init controversy. One which, IMHO, Linux super users seemed unusually attached to an older standard for not always clear reasons. Snaps offer real benefits: maybe instead of complaining that 'this sucks' users could offer constructive criticism about how to improve the new standard. Just my opinion tho.
- bluedino 6y ago
  Chrome auto updates cause issues on the Mac. No thanks.
  - ordinaryperson 6y ago
    OK, what issues does it cause? And are those issues outweighed by the security and standardization issues raised by non-updating software? I don't know who all remembers having to develop websites compatible with outdated versions of Internet Explorer but I do and still have nightmares about it.
    - bluedino 6y ago
      Crashes, freezes, stopping systems from sleeping... I don't want Google's (or anyone else's) code running in the background doing whatever it wants. Want to check for an update and notify me? Great. But don't do anything else.
      - 6y ago
greendave 6y ago
> Auto-updating of snaps can only be deferred at best, until at some point, like Windows, it auto-updates anyway. Even on metered connections, snaps auto-update anyway after some time. This attitude is obnoxious. Yes, not everybody is on a metered connection or running a mission-critical system, but some are, and it is hardly unreasonable to accommodate them.
- koolba 6y ago
  It’s beyond obnoxious. It’s your computer and there’s no way to disable it from mutating without file system hacks?
  - kazinator 6y ago
    It's not your computer when Canonical is chummy with Microsoft.
  - noncoml 6y ago
    There is. Don’t install Ubuntu. Use Debian.
    - ip26 6y ago
      The above might come across as flip, but I think it's actually spot on. Why would a mission critical or metered-connection-only machine be running the latest Ubuntu desktop anyway? Match the tool to the job.
      - indigodaddy 6y ago
        It usually wouldn’t even be running Debian. More likely CentOS/RHEL/Suse or a Solaris.
        noncoml 6y ago
        That's the beauty of Linux Distros. We are spoiled for choice.
williesleg 6y ago
Yeah, ditched Ubuntu for Debian Testing. Had enough.
bluedino 6y ago
I'm a fan of Docker on the server so the idea of Snaps is great. Linux packaging is a pain, and one of the reasons distros exist. However, the implementation stinks right now. This isn't to say they won't get it right in a year or two.
beckler 6y ago
We tried to make an internal IoT device using Ubuntu Core and snaps because the capabilities of it were very promising. We started a PoC and about halfway through we hit a major roadblock. Our enterprise network does certificate substitution, and Ubuntu Core absolutely does not allow you to install your own certificates globally, so our devices would never receive updates. We tried EVERY hack we could think up, short of making our own core snap. We talked to Canonical about it, and they didn't seem interested in our fixing our complaints without a massive amount of money, so our PoC died, and we dropped Ubuntu entirely because of it.
- comboy 6y ago
  What did you end up using?
  - beckler 6y ago
    We ultimately used a custom yocto image.
- adrianN 6y ago
  Sounds like a solid decision from Canonical tbh. Certificate substitution is terrible.
  - kanox 6y ago
    MITM should be completely illegal. Why does this even need to be stated?
    - ccmcarey 6y ago
      Seriously, you can think of no reasons? Many competent companies MITM employee traffic to scan for malware, leaking confidential data, etc.
    - kazinator 6y ago
      Grandparent comment by beckler says they were trying to make some IoT product. That will be deployed in situations where that happens; if your customer has a MITM set up, you just nod your head and sell them something that works in that setup. You can't say, "MITM should be illegal, please buy my non-auto-updating solution anyway and stop it with your MITM." Good thing beckler found this while eating their own dogfood due to their own network being that way. Imagine that everything worked fine in their environment and then so customers came back with this issue. Then they would be beavering away hacking up their own core snap or whatever.
lmilcin 6y ago
Not sure what was the thinking. I am, as of this moment, in the process of migrating my laptop to from Ubuntu to Debian.
- risho 6y ago
  It is worth noting you can basically get all of the benefit of using ubuntu(a good gnome experience, ppa's, etc) but without any of the snap stuff by installing pop os. It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users, because it is still fully featured and a great overall experience even for a more adept linux user.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    I don't know Pop OS. On the other hand, I have been using Debian on my PC since 1999 and only got Ubuntu for my laptop because I had trouble getting everything to work properly and Ubuntu seemed to do the job.
  - mastax 6y ago
    > It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users Is it though? https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/ > Pop!_OS is an operating system for STEM and creative professionals who use their computer as a tool to discover and create. Okay but who is STEM specifically? Further down it mentions "Deep Learning" "Engineering" (Mentioned apps are all for software dev) "Media Production" "Bioinformatics". I don't know about you, but to me that gives the exact opposite impression of "something basically for scrubs and new linux users".
tkuraku 6y ago
I feel like snaps are trying to do too much. Applications are slow to start. Besides, I don't want the underlying system to be changing and updating all the time. For me the stability of RHEL/Centos with flatpak for desktop applications is perfect.
securityfreak 6y ago
Ubuntu 20.04 forced me to switch to Fedora Server on my home server. Pretty happy so far. I have significantly fresher package versions and most of the software tools I use offer a RPM package. I think I will wait for snap to mature, before giving it another go.
- lifeAsNerd 6y ago
  I don't understand. You stopped using Ubuntu server because of snap? Can you clarify?
  - jablan 6y ago
    they didn't say it was ubuntu server, it might just as well be ubuntu desktop, and used as a home server (i.e. a box used mostly for server software, but no necessarily without desktop environment).
commoner 6y ago
Snap has an issue on certain Linux distributions (including Fedora and Arch) in which many applications render tofu characters (□□□□□) instead of text. https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-on-fedora-and-arch/12484 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-o... Canonical needs to invest in compatibility if it wants Snap to be adopted in distributions other than Ubuntu. Flatpak doesn't have this issue, and unlike Snap, its server implementation is decentralized, free, and open source.
- simion314 6y ago
  Isn't flatpack designed from the point of Desktop users (GNOME) where snaps are designed with a server in mind? This would mean that are very different and you can't just substitute them.
  - commoner 6y ago
    While there are Snaps for server software, Snaps are marketed as a way to publish applications "for desktop, cloud, and Internet of Things" "across Linux on any distribution or version" - and users expect Snap applications to work properly on all Linux distributions, not just Ubuntu. Otherwise, developers could just publish a .deb package for Ubuntu like they did before. https://snapcraft.io https://snapcraft.io Yes, Flatpak is targeted to desktop applications while Snap has a broader scope, but it's questionable whether Snap's mandatory automatic updates are desirable in a server environment.
    - simion314 6y ago
      My point was about making clear that snap is not a flatpack clone, the 2 projects were started from 2 different perspective and have different architectures, just wanted to inform some people that would think that are the exact same thing and Canonical can JUST drop snap and adopt flatpack. Edit: about autoupdates, I agree, the user should always have the choice.
    - flatiron 6y ago
      I don’t even know how’s it’s questionable. Every single update we do to prod gets regression tested except for “cross yer fingers” 0-days that we are exposed to.
phosphophyllite 6y ago
It's fun to see how linux community always tries to make over engineered solution of any problem, instead of repeating Mac OS approach. Idea of ONE SINGLE DEPENDENCY TREE is just not for desktop.
6a74 6y ago
There was a thread on HN about disabling Snaps last week. I found the process pretty straight-forward. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661
- jablan 6y ago
  It's not about whether it can be disabled or not, but about the direction Canonical is heading to. Also, I wouldn't call installing Chromium from .deb in 20.04 exactly straightforward.
badsectoracula 6y ago
> I installed Pop!_OS 20.04 LTS just yesterday, hoping to get a better out of the box experience. I’ll log back with thoughts about it next week. I tried Pop!_OS 20.04 in a VM just yesterday and my experience was dreadful especially with its "store" application. Things like the entire program freezing randomly for seconds while trying to fetch things, images taking ages to show up (btw, i have high speed connection), showing me ridiculous download sizes for flatpak packages (think something like Geany requiring 1.1GB or something like that), not giving any indication about download processes if you navigate away, wasting screen space when showing applications in a category (it uses a list view where each entry gets a huge icon at the left side, its title, some very short and useless description next to the icon like "Goofy is a goof foogbar", an "Install" button at the right side and vast swaths of emptiness in between), etc. Also had UI screwups everywhere, like the Preferences application cutting out the "Preferences" title in the titlebar to "Preferenc..." when a) those three dots took the same space as the rest of the word and b) that title was the only thing in the entire titlebar with almost 500px of unused space at each side. Or controls moving and windows resizing a few pixels after i start typing something (e.g. trying to type some number in the calculator has the divider between the buttons and the number move down a little the first time i type something). And the entire "let's merge titlebar and toolbar" idea is as awful as it was when GNOME 3 introduced it (well, actually it was iTunes but i do not remember anyone ever saying that they liked iTunes). Trying some of the preinstalled apps, i accidentally clicked some tool buttons trying to move a window around (the UI being slow didn't help). And it was dog slow. Terribly, irredeemably, laughably slow. Opening the icons had the entire UI chug worse than my 386 running Windows 3.1 (and actually i'm pretty sure if i wrote a program to move icons around in Windows 3.1 it would be faster). IMO the only time i felt Linux had a high quality desktop environment was actually the first Linux distribution i used: Caldera OpenLinux 2.3 (to the point that in my youthful enthusiasm i force installed it to every relative and friend's computers i encountered :-P). That distribution was very well put together and thought out (try to find it in archive.org and test it in 86box or PCem with an emulated Pentium 200 and 32MB of RAM to see what i'm talking about). It had some issues, but two decades later things should have been much improved - instead everything went downhill after that and for most Linux users their desktop use is mainly a matter of how much tolerance you have for all the issues you encounter (ie. when you see someone having a problem and there is a reply like "i never had that problem" or "i've been using Linux XYZ for years and that has never been my experience", it is usually from someone who had a high enough tolerance that anything non-major does not even register anymore).
nottorp 6y ago
Can you still install debs with apt command line? I started to ignore ubuntu's attempts at a graphical app store long ago.
- mavhc 6y ago
  yes, and the stupid thing is you get a second copy of the application, different version, different UI, seems very broken
bproven 6y ago
I know Snap maybe offered tighter sandboxing, but why didnt AppImage take off? It seems like it solves the problems of deb/rmp/etc war and is easy to create for app devs...
- e2le 6y ago
  I much prefer AppImage, just recently I created one that packaged an old windows game and included the required dependencies (wine, libopenal, etc). Starting the AppImage is as simple as "./game.AppImage" and in theory would work on any Linux distribution. I think it has good potential for preservation of old applications and video games. AppImage is awesome.
- the_why_of_y 6y ago
  AppImage is not at all easy to create for app devs because there's no SDK, unlike FlatPak and Snap.
woofie11 6y ago
Is there any sensible documentation on this somewhere? I've been running Debian, and then Ubuntu, for a quarter-century now, largely because things just worked. .deb is nearly perfect. Having used Docker, it's the last thing I want on my desktop, for a whole slew of reasons. It's odd, Windows and Linux switched spots in that time. Windows 10 is faster, more stable, and more understandable than Ubuntu. Ubuntu is increasingly layered, convoluted, and bloated. Windows runs on light systems. Ubuntu requires a ton of RAM and CPU. I think this might be the thing which will makes me give up Ubuntu.
- josteink 6y ago
  > It's odd, Windows and Linux switched spots in that time. Windows 10 is faster, more stable, and more understandable than Ubuntu. I mean, you can claim a lot of stuff about lot of things, but saying Windows is understandable is pretty rich. You can’t even reliably cron a single script to run once an hour without weird, unfathomable, undebuggable bugs starting to pop up. Care to elaborate exactly what you mean?
  - woofie11 6y ago
    I have three machine, one is Windows, one is Ubuntu, and one is Mac. The statement was relative. I never said Windows was understandable. I said more understandable. Nineties-era Debian, I felt I understood every piece of, to where I could fill in details with documentation or code in a few minutes. 2020-era Ubuntu developed the same layeritis as Windows, only worse. Microsoft cleaned up a little bit from the bad, old Windows 95 days too. Windows 10 is slightly simpler than Windows 95, but a heck of a lot more stable.
vanviegen 6y ago
For largely this reason, I've just switched to Manjaro after over two decades (ouch!) of using Debian and Ubuntu. I'm very happy with it! Package installs are unbelievably fast. But mostly, the AUR repository of user contributed packaging scripts is awesome! Although I'm a bit worried about installing packages from random internet people, they are generally short and very easy to check for unwanted *ware. Haven't been disappointed yet!
- wayneftw 6y ago
  Came here to say this. I've been on Manjaro at work and at home for 2 years now. It's the longest running Linux desktop distro I've ever maintained and it's precisely due to the excellent AUR repo system. I've had to install very few things from source, mostly small, opinionated system tweak utilities. But even installing from source is easier than hunting down a PPA and a key and trying to keep apt from getting corrupted somehow.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
100% agree! I hate snaps and Ubuntu is overdoing it too much now. I've moved to Alpine for servers and Arch for desktop now.
karmakaze 6y ago
I don't use Software Center so the only thing I should be concerned about is getting the snap flavor of Chrome instead of the .deb. My main browser is Firefox anyway. I get that the forced direction toward snaps seems premature. I wouldn't stop using it though if there's simple measures to get around it. Also use Xfce/Xubuntu.
tom_devref 6y ago
I really dislike the way snaps create disk partitions. When I run $ df I want to see what I defined during OS installation, not a dozen nasty snap mounts. An application misusing fundamental system features like this feels like a violation of some UNIX principle.
- mrweasel 6y ago
  Very much agreed, the fact that nobody at Ubuntu noticed that the extra mount points is a best annoying is kinda impressive. I’m not blaming Ubuntu, nor Snaps for this issue, but we had a new server come online and our monitoring noticed that two or three partition was already at 100% usage. Those where snap mount point.
  - tom_devref 6y ago
    I don't use Ubuntu on servers but I imagine snaps would cause monitors like Munin and Logwatch to freak out.
- jlgaddis 6y ago
  FWIW, you can pass the "-t" parameter to "df" to limit the output to specific filesystem types (e.g., "ext4", "xfs", etc.).
- pelario 6y ago
  I cannot agree more and I'm actually surprised that I haven't heard this complaint more often/loudly. Perhaps there is something we are missing ?
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I have resorted to using an alias: alias df='df -x"squashfs" -x"tmpfs"'
- zbuf 6y ago
  We must be nearly at the point in the plot when somebody declares that df "never did work properly anyway" and rewrites it.
veesahni 6y ago
Anybody have commentary on how this snap stuff impacts those who use Ubuntu on their EC2 nodes? So far I see complaints about Chromium, which typically doesn't exist in a server environment.
- McGlockenshire 6y ago
  Why did you choose to use Ubuntu on a server instead of Debian?
ohazi 6y ago
If you're looking for an alternative to Ubuntu but want to stick with a Debian-based distribution, I'll continue to recommend Debian testing. It's a rolling release, so you don't have to stop what you're doing every 6 months - 3 years to install a huge update that changes the way everything works. It's more stable than the name would suggest, as long as you follow a few reasonable best-practices [1]. Software available on Debian testing is pretty up-to-date... If you're previously tried Debian stable but were put off by ancient packages, you won't see this in testing. Keep in mind that Debian testing (not stable) is upstream for Ubuntu's releases, so Debian testing's packages will be about as new as Ubuntu's packages on release day (but they're updated continuously, so they stay fresh). I have personal systems running Debian testing or unstable that have been running continuously for 5-10 years without issues. They don't look or feel any different than systems I set up a few months ago. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23044878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23044878
- wegs 6y ago
  Is there any stable way to go Ubuntu -> Debian? I don't want testing. Stable is fine. I find each version of Ubuntu worse than the previous. It's change for the sake of change, and as in this case, something really thoughtful like .deb gets replaced with something which appears slapped together poorly. I just want a stable, working system, and Ubuntu seems to no longer be the way to have that.
  - simcop2387 6y ago
    Best way is to backup your home directory and re-install. trying to do anything else is going to cause you far more headaches than anything could be worth. You may also want to keep some places like /var/lib/ if you have databases going, etc. I'd just do a complete backup and restore pieces as you find you need them.
  - paines 6y ago
    Set your system up to have like 90% of the available disk space for /home. Rest is root. You can replace your whole system within half an hour.
diablo1 6y ago
> Browsing the Snap Store sucks Yeah a lot of the software you see in the store is legacy software that seems to be stuck on an older version. Also many of the items are lacking a screenshot and a comprehensive description of what the software does. I find myself using the store to discover software and then go to the software's official website (usually on Github) and install it the oldskool way by doing: ./software.deb
gertrunde 6y ago
And for some reason the server installer doesn't set up any kind of swap at all. And forces snaps and lxd on you, which also brings in lovely things like cloud-init... You spend 10-15 minutes cleaning up a supposedly minimal install.
rohan1024 6y ago
Not the best way to disable this but it works. My /etc/hosts: 127.0.0.1 api.snapcraft.io
hypnotist 6y ago
Can anyone recommend good rpm based distro for desktop(business env)?
- BenjiWiebe 6y ago
  CentOS or Fedora?
rwmj 6y ago
Nothing about everything being statically linked into a big binary blob with very little connection to sources? It's my main problem with containers in general.
dirtydroog 6y ago
Is this an issue if we upgrade to 20.04 on our GCP machines? Is all this nonsense there for server releases?
gsej 6y ago
I've been using kubuntu for a while and while I like it a lot, it seems very "chatty" to me - way too many notifications which I have to disable one at a time. I only discovered the snap situation when Chromium started prompting before it would open files, and I couldn't find a way to disable it. In the end I installed Chrome, but I am looking around for an alternative distro.
stevepike 6y ago
So I run Kubuntu on my work laptop (X1 Carbon) and just upgraded to 20.04 last weekend. I had a vague idea there were different competing standards for "linux apps that work across distribution" but didn't know people had such a problem with snap. It just seemed like a useful tool for installing proprietary stuff that wouldn't normally be packaged by the distribution. I just checked and the snaps I have that aren't from canonical are: datagrip, slack, discord, and spotify. I haven't noticed any slow app boot times and I think it's great that it's so easy to install third party software. Is snap somehow user-hostile?
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  There are some downsides (footprint, forced updates, speed, etc.), though depending on what you're installing those may not be deal-breakers. I'm using plain Ubuntu 20.04 and I tend to install stuff via apt and not snap in general (but I am fine with installing non-essential things via snap). The software store has a subtle toggle in the upper right for choosing to install a package as a snap or via apt when both are available.
  - stevepike 6y ago
    Yeah, is there a plan for it to long-term replace apt? I've just always used apt as my first choice and then snap for random things like spotify.
    - toyg 6y ago
      They are making a very big bet on snap, I would expect most of their desktop apps to be slowly moved there in the next few years. At that point apt would be kept around strictly for essential system packages and (hopefully) for server usage.
  - RMPR 6y ago
    Imho the principal downside (which you didn't mention) is the vendor lockdown.
- excalibur 6y ago
LifeLiverTransp 6y ago
Any movement the buisness Operative Systems producers do, the FOS movement blindly mimics. In this case, treat the consumer like cattle and force your design decision upon him. (Win 8)I cant wait for FOS spyware..
OrgNet 6y ago
Not sure whats the point of using snaps in a stable OS release, but they are fairly easy to remove: https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-20-04/ https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-... ie: I thought they were more useful for installing a random app that is not supported by your OS... Is it easier to include a snap then it is to create a regular package? or are there any other advantages?
Stierlitz 6y ago
There was nothing wrong with Synaptic + Deb files that needed fixing. Same with Systemd and now they're going after our home directories (never mind that it breaks SSH). My home directory is already portable as in all my config information is in .dot files. As for snap, yet again a solution in search of a problem. you can download a nightly-build as a compressed archive and run it without installing. I too will be moving with my next installation. any recommendations for a small fast distro where the GUI doesn't get in your way?
ashtonkem 6y ago
I’m sympathetic to most of these arguments, operating systems should typically trend towards more clarity and user choice; especially ones likely to be used by professionals like Linux. But I will say that the Ubuntu software store has sucked for as long as I’ve ever used Ubuntu; they made it pretty years ago, and apparently never once considered performance or behavior. I would regularly search in the store for applications I knew existed, and it would either take forever or not find them. I always gave up and used apt, at least until I gave up on Ubuntu altogether.
jlokier 6y ago
I've been using Ubuntu Server non-stop on a wide range of differently configured (real aka bare-metal as well as virtual) servers for over 10 years. As a server OS I've really found it useful. (Except for that time when they shipped buggy versions of high-availability tools, warned against by the upstream maintainers, which segfaulted occasionally and showed inconsistent state across different nodes - thanks :/) I found it an improvement over Debian. And that an improvement over Red Hat (before it was RHEL and Fedora). And that an improvement over Slackware. CentOS and RHEL got used too in parallel on some sites, and were very solid, but with their own annoyances. But recently, on the server, LXD (aka LXC 2) switched from being a .deb package to being a Snap. They made a policy decision to stop shipping the .deb, to force server admins to start using Snap whether they wanted to or not, I guess. So I was forced to use Snap just to run LXD, which was annoying as things like configs and paths to the container images are buried inside the Snap somewhere, and various things with container-uids and host-container shared mounts stopped working. At least, the upgrade broke a bunch of working scripts. But it wasn't too painful, just a bit of work that felt like it was caused by an unnecessary annoyance. Ironically given other comments, the Snap does not seem to auto-update unlike all the other .debs on the system! Now, hearing about Ubuntu 20.04 and application snaps, I'm extra cautious before assuming Ubuntu 20.04 Server will be a smooth change. I'll take a look, and if the server software is much like 18.04 (except for annoying LXD) I'll use 20.04. But if they've moved a lot of things away from .deb to Snaps-only on the server, that's going to be some overhead to deal with, and it will at least result in evaluating whether switching distro is no more effort and a better choice. I've not been a fan of CentOS, but that time I was burned by the high-availability tools due to Ubuntu (and Debian) shipping a dangerously buggy version in an LTS release did make me realise that RHEL/CentOS are well maintained in that department and just wouldn't do that.
nromiun 6y ago
> Snap applications auto-update and that’s fine if Ubuntu wants to keep systems secure. But it can’t even be turned off manually. OMG. Is this real? This is the exact reason I use Linux instead of Windows 10 or macOS. I am not a grandma who can't stay up to date on tech news. At the least there should be a toggle for power users. But no, you can only defer it. Am I the only one who doesn't like it when your already slow internet slows down even further? It feels like hell when you are working. I am not upgrading to this. I have been using Arch Linux as my personal OS. Maybe I should look into Debian for my VMs. And just read this thread[1]. Is this how they treat their users? Even Reddit is better then this. 1. https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/is-ubuntu-software-going-to-be-remove-for-snap-snap-store/14542/58 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/is-ubuntu-software-going-to-b...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  ...dumb question: Does this apply to Ubuntu Server as well??? Because if so, I'm sticking with 18.04.
  - geek_at 6y ago
    only if you install your server applications using snap
    - littlethrowaway 6y ago
      So, why are people getting upset about this then? If you can simply just _not use snaps_?
      - koheripbal 6y ago
        I'm guessing it's not an option when using the GUI?
  - nromiun 6y ago
    I was using the regular version for remote desktop VMs. I don't know about the server version.
bgorman 6y ago
Ubuntu is doing more harm than good to desktop linux at this point in time. Continuing to push Xorg over Wayland. Removing support for flatpak (cross-distro way of using sandboxed apps) Horrible PPA system that works much worse in practice than the AUR or other ports systems. No daemonless docker (podman) Lots of people try Ubuntu since it is the "most popular" version of Linux, realize it isn't great and think desktop Linux is in bad shape. The reality is Canonical doesn't seem to have good ideas and refuses to incorporate the good ideas from other distros.
- abeyer 6y ago
  Ubuntu tried shipping wayland on by default already and it was a clusterf* and made that release all but unusable. Wayland isn't ready for an LTS release yet.
  - bgorman 6y ago
    Wayland is the default display server for Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8. I have been running Wayland for the last 2 years and have never had any problems. (Admittedly I haven't used Nvidia)
    - bboozzoo 6y ago
      Can you share a single window in eg. Meet? Do alternative input methods work for accessibility? FWIW I would like Wayland to finally take off, but each time there some random shit that's still broken despite 12 years of development.
    - abeyer 6y ago
      It may well be Canonical's fault and they just screwed things up...but regardless, if they haven't managed to ship it in usable form in an off-cycle release, it's not ready for LTS. In fact after the last time, they said they would only try again when they could go a full cycle of 3 non-LTS releases with reasonable results before it would land in LTS. And their expectations before shipping in the off-cycle didn't seem too crazy (ie the X11 compatibility layer not constantly crashing the whole session and taking out all the user's applications) but still weren't met in time for 18.10. I think they're slated to try again now for 20.10. > Admittedly I haven't used Nvidia Yeah, that. Not supporting ~half the video cards in the world sounds like a clusterf*. I know it's largely nvidia's fault, but at the same time, I have a lot of investment with them, and none w/ wayland.
daneel_w 6y ago
I was asked by a friend to get Netflix working on his Lubuntu 20.04 Linux laptop. He was running Chromium which comes without Widevine, and the extension wasn't available in the Chrome Web Store, but it can be enabled by simply making libwidevine.so available in Chromium's library path. But how to add a file to the sandboxed lib/ directory of a Snap? You can't without rebuilding the entire Snap as your own custom product, and then it's no longer a standard package from the repo so you lose the blessings of package updates! Maybe there's a better way, but I sure could not find one. I had to ditch Chromium and unfortunately resort to Chrome directly provided by Google, with all of its privacy problems.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  Did Firefox not ship with widevine?
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    Usually firefox does not ship with it, but it's a one-click install when needed. It depends on the package though, some packagers build it with it bundled some don't. Since it's not a FOSS component it can't be bundled in FOSS distros though.
Priem19 6y ago
So that's why two applications suddenly couldn't install anymore. Aw man, I've been so happy with Xubuntu the last couple of years, I really don't want to have to find another distro.
Iolaum 6y ago
I moved from Ubuntu MATE to Fedora MATE for this reason. One reason I use free software is that I get to have the final say in what my computer does. There's a big thread at snapcraft forums asking for the ability to shut off updates. Canonical wouldn't bulge. So I ve moved elsewhere and thank the Linux ecosystem for allowing diversity so that I can still use it as I d like to.
gjsman-1000 6y ago
I filed a bug a few years back asking why Snap refused to allow any repositories outside of Canonical's and had no open-source server implementation. That blew up. https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/08/bug-report-asks-why-snappy https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/08/bug-report-asks-why-snap...
pkaye 6y ago
I tried snaps and I'm okay with them atleast for non-core apps. Like games and a few bigger programs I want isolated from the rest of the systems. But I wouldn't want my calculator or browser as part of snaps.
_xerxes_ 6y ago
My issue is that they still have not sorted out suspend and resume. Half the time when I reopen my laptop lid my keyboard no longer works. Had the same issue on 18.04.
shock 6y ago
I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for-snap-from-store/707 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer's arrogance (we know better than you when you should be applying updates) I will be voting with my feet and will be installing Pop!_OS instead of Ubuntu, and if snapd is present I will remove it. The stated goal of Niemeyer, to have users use updated software, would have been fulfilled in my case if I had a way to see what updates would be applied beforehand, instead of the updates being force-installed. Lengthy dialog with Niemeyer in the forum thread seems to have been a waste of time for all the people who participated trying to convince him to allow disabling of force-installed updates so I suggest you do the same as me and vote with your feet!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- donmcronald 6y ago
  If they make it automatic and unmanageable by default, they can sell those features back to us tomorrow as an enterprise edition or a private Snap store. It’s the same thing MS did with Windows 10. You buy the product, but have to pay again if you want any semblance of control. Us normal users are now test subjects for the real customers. Look how non-enterprise Office 365 customers are on a monthly cadence for forced updates and the expensive plans get SAC or better.
  - shock 6y ago
    > If they make it automatic and unmanageable by default, they can sell those features back to us tomorrow as an enterprise edition or a private Snap store. I'm not sure whether you're being ironic, but they're doing just that.
    - deleted 6y ago
jmgpeeters 6y ago
Oh god. What a shame. Another distro down the drain.
d_tr 6y ago
I do not have an informed opinion on the different aspects of snaps, because I haven't had to deal with them at all. That said, the feature "automatic updates whenever the system feels like it", is an annoyance for me, even if I can defer them. Typing "sudo apt full-upgrade" takes a few seconds. I just use Ubuntu Server and get only what I need, which is available through the APT repositories. I have not noticed these repositories getting any smaller in favor of snaps and I am already using the 20.10 development branch. The Ubuntu Server installer does not install any snaps by default. However, snapd is there but it is trivial to remove it if one wants to. Chromium is the only "loss" I have witnessed and I also saw this mentioned in other comments. Note that there exists a really nice PPA, maintained by Pop!_OS, that contains quite a few packages, including Chromium. I am wondering what security issues do snaps address that apparmor, whose purpose is security, does not. I also think it is unfortunate that we need snaps to deal with different applications / packages needing different library versions...
errantspark 6y ago
I used Ubuntu for 4 or 5 years as my daily driver for development. Snaps made me swap back to Arch I haven't looked back. All it took was one `df`.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
I only use the micro editor as a snap. The chromium snap was forced on me. I keep it around to test and separate web stuff. From that minimal use I get a daemon running and a dozen bullshit mounts. Wish they just statically compiled it.
jnurmine 6y ago
To disallow control of the updates by the users is probably well-intended as some kind of a trade-off, but what if I don't want a new feature that is coming in the next version? What if I already know it's broken in my system configuration -- I hope for a fix for 60 days, and then what? What if the fix never comes? Does my system stop working? What if I'm a business relying on that specific version? Do I just say "oh well" and close shop? And what about airgapped systems? I understand there's the "security", but then, on the other hand: 1. If snapd gets forked because of this, the snap ecosystem becomes fragmented and Canonical loses control of part of their baby. 2. If snapd stays as-is, and Canonical keeps preventing user control of the update cadence, then people will just run away from using snaps once the magical auto-updates create any high-profile problem. Lxd is a snap as well, so containers will be in the crosshairs. All in all it feels like a silly decision if you ask me.
djhaskin987 6y ago
This is the first time in years I've tried Fedora again and it has to do with snap in part.
0x8BADF00D 6y ago
Why not install Alpine Linux? It follows the principle of minimalism and doesn't have a lot of package bloat, like a lot of .deb based distributions.
bamboozled 6y ago
We work on a product where we must deploy different Linux distributions for customers but it’s imperative they’re stable and we’ve tested the image at an exact point in time. Snap is an extremely big pain when it comes to this. We have to workaround for forceful updates by telling it to use a non-existent proxy, it’s very dumb.
hakube 6y ago
Snap is really terrible. Flatpaks and AppImages are the way to go. I wish they are supported more (especially AppImage)
robomartin 6y ago
So...I guess we are done with Ubuntu then. This is terrible. We use Ubuntu on systems where bad things can happen if software becomes unstable due to an unwanted update. In other words, nobody, nobody would ever even dream of installing any software of updating the OS without authorization. And this authorization would require regression testing in order to verify the changes would not compromise the system. I don't understand how anyone working on Ubuntu could think this is a good idea. To be clear, if Linux (let's say Ubuntu) is going to become a viable OS for the masses it probably needs something like this. I get it. However, there is no reason to break the traditional stability of Linux and even risk creating danger. Disabling this mode should be as simple as one setting. In fact, it should be offered as a choice during installation with a full explanation. This is where they could make a pitch for the functionality. Those of us who don't need it (or can't use it for other reasons) can opt out and move on. Consumers, sure, I don't care.
luizfelberti 6y ago
For someone who has been out of the loop on the whole Snap vs Flatpak situation, could anyone give (or point to) a comparison on their technical merits, and why would one be better than the other?
- coleifer 6y ago
  Google it bro
coleifer 6y ago
This old saw again? Shit. Just don't use Ubuntu. The writing is on the wall.
verelo 6y ago
So theres one huge issue with Snap no one in my circles is talking about - i dont want my server changing without me controlling it! This seems like a) Someone could get an update in without my knowledge and it'll get pushed to me without my consent b) if the code changes, i want to control that, if a package changes, i also want to control that....its my server, i want to control it all! On a desktop, maybe I could handle this, but for a server, its absolutely a no go. wtf are they thinking?
weakfish 6y ago
Can someone explain why it's fashionable to hate Snap? I am a casual Linux user (Ubuntu VM for schoolwork and projects that WSL can't handle) and don't get the hate.
nullc 6y ago
This kind of unconstrained and minimally accountable automatic update is incompatible with strong security. I already wouldn't use ubuntu due to their long established phone-home practices, but this further strengthens the case. FWIW, I'm pretty happy with the recently released Fedora 32 so far.
Jedd 6y ago
I've been running Debian since ~1994, and never really got the excitement about Ubuntu. Some colleagues did, but it seemed to be more about the marketing. I've always been a KDE user, which was always a first class citizen option during the Debian installation process. For Gnome / Unity users having that default promoted and baked into the distribution might have been compelling. The refrain 'but it's so much easier to install' never really sat well with me -- I hand-install my desktop & laptop OS's infrequently, given the upgrade process (with Debian) has always been wonderfully robust. I auto-install and maintain, almost exclusively headless, every other VM, so a nicer installer wasn't relevant there. Claims of 'stodgy' versions are rebutted by using testing or unstable branches, or even backports. For enterprise, stodgy's often a plus in any case -- look at what you get with RHEL/CentOS.
- d_tr 6y ago
  I also use KDE Plasma, but even the experimental Debian repository does not yet have 5.18. Otherwise, I would just use Sid.
  - Jedd 6y ago
    Look, I'm a huge advocate of KDE, but objectively I'm struggling to see what's ground-breaking and desperately urgent in 5.18. Ubuntu (or rather Kubuntu's) schedule [1] unsurprisingly isn't faster than the mothership's. I guess there's been a lot going on in the world since February, so people haven't been 100% focused on getting free software packaged up into a free distribution as fast as normal. [1] https://community.kde.org/Get_KDE_Software_on_Your_Linux_Distro#Kubuntu https://community.kde.org/Get_KDE_Software_on_Your_Linux_Dis...
iknowstuff 6y ago
Ok, a central store is a problem, but I don't get hn's bitterness about autoupdates. I don't mind autoupdates of apps, especially sandboxed ones like Snaps, and especially when they can be rolled back if issues arise. Snaps do, in fact, allow for easy reverting to a previously used revision: $ sudo snap revert vlc vlc reverted to 3.0.5-1 It will even remain on the reverted version without updating until another version is published.
pxi 6y ago
Snap is irritating, but for a single desktop, easy to remove and easy to live without. It's not half as annoying as owning a samsung android device.
tenkabuto 6y ago
What are other distros where snap isn't an issue/isn't installed?
- detaro 6y ago
  As far as I know only Ubuntu uses it by default, because it is their thing.
dchyrdvh 6y ago
Ubuntu has followed the same path of first building their user base on trust and quality and then monetizing it hard with various shady schemes. Even coffee shops do it. First they sell high quality coffee for little margin and "don't expect or accept tips". Then they switch to the dark side to monetize the trust: they cut hard on materials, they pay $2/hour to employees and expect the customers to subsidize their minimum wages with tips (that are now accepted and very much expected).
dbsmith83 6y ago
Well, I'm out then. Sorry, but at the end of the day, it's a user's machine, not yours, Snappy/Canonical. I will not use a system which will not let me turn off something that installs shit on MY machine. I can't believe the arrogance of the snappy devs. Just shut up and give the people what they want.
Agitatra 6y ago
Actually, I'm startled by the religious believe that nothing can go wrong with "snap"! What is so new to snap that it is so reliable, in contrast to Debian-packages? Currently I'm trying to update my 18.04 to 20.04 but get stuck, because the Python3-Version shipped lately seem to have issues. So, the upgrade process abruptly stops, leaving the system in a half-baked state. While I do not complain, Ubuntu is free, I'm terrified by the thought such an upgrade could be initiated, without me monitoring it, and having the chance to try it on a non-productive system first. Currently I can live with the snap-approach, because I don’t have to use it at the time being, but if this is the way Canonical will proceed, I probably will have to vote with my feet too. Mark (not Shuttleworth :)

Good to see that I am not alone at being upset about the current snap vs. deb vs. flatpak Ubuntu situation. I always considered a unified package management system as a huge plus.

Glavnokoman 6y ago
I do not understand that. Why being upset? If you do not like Ubuntu just install some other distro and be done with it. There are many out there! Fedora, Arch (Manjaro) and even plain Debian are all much better then Ubuntu these days.
- lonelappde 6y ago
  It's exausting to switch every time an upgrade is a betrayal
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  It is not straightforward to switch distros and maintain your setup. You have to set aside at least a day for it.

hedora 6y ago

The last time I installed the Ubuntu, I noticed gnome calculator took over a second to start in a VM on a new >$2500 laptop. I switched to a .deb, and it was instantaneous. Then I switched back to devuan and have been happy since.

aritmo 6y ago
The calculator was a snap in Ubuntu 18.04 as an experiment.
- JonoBB 6y ago
  Ah, this makes sense now! I've always wondered why the calculator (of all apps) was by far the slowest to start on 18.04 for me.
- MattPalmer1086 6y ago
  I was wondering why the calculator took so long to start on 18.04. I thought there was some problem with my system. Doesn't bode well for 20.04. I've been with Ubuntu for a very long time, I like that it just works most of the time. May be time to try out another distro if all the applications are this sluggish.
  - jandrese 6y ago
    The good news is that 18 is one of the super-LTS releases, so you don't have to upgrade until 2028.
m0xte 6y ago
A good time to ask I suppose: Is Devuan stable and does it carry security updates and package repositories equivalent to normal Debian? If so I'll probably switch myself.
- petre 6y ago
  It largely uses debian packages, so it gets the same uodates. Only packages that require systemd are modified by the devuan maintainers to run w/o it.
jandrese 6y ago
Yeah, it's almost as bad as the calculator in Window 10. It's completely ridiculous for ANY calculator app to take that long to load on a modern PC.
- philliphaydon 6y ago
  What’s wrong with the windows one? It’s instant and it calculates things?!?
  - umvi 6y ago
    IIRC it tries to connect to the internet in the background to download currency exchange rates
  - CarVac 6y ago
    It takes a couple seconds to start the first time you launch it. Very much not instant.
    - lonelappde 6y ago
      What about the second time?
      - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
        Then it's in cache.
  - firmnoodle 6y ago
    Yeah, I'm confused as well. I just tried Calc on win10 for the first time in weeks or months and it opened before I could count 2 seconds. This is from a SSD where it won't have been in cache.
    - jandrese 6y ago
      2 seconds isn't instant.

thedevelopnik 6y ago

Was going to suggest he try Pop, glad to see he already is! Solves the problem while being excellent in every other way.

risho 6y ago
I think that Pop has a bit of a branding issue. It has the reputation of an os with training wheels for newbies and gamer bros, but it is actually an all around great OS for anyone. It's a great gnome experience out of the box with all of the benefits of using Ubuntu with none of the nonsense. I'm hoping to see it gain popularity with the broader linux community. Everyone who used traditional ubuntu and isn't happy with the direction it's headed should really give Pop OS a shot.

dopeboy 6y ago

> I hate that Chromium’s snap takes more than 10 seconds to load on cold boot on a freaking SSD, whereas .deb and Flatpak apps load in 1-2 seconds. Can someone verify this? As someone who will eventually upgrade to 20.04, this is concerning.

yissp 6y ago
It takes about 5 seconds for me off an NVMe SSD. For comparison Firefox (installed with apt) starts in under a second.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  Yes it starts in about 3~4 seconds for me. The only reason it doesn't bother me is that I normally use Firefox.
aritmo 6y ago
Clean install, Ubuntu 20.04. Chromium starts in around a second.
- wolco 6y ago
  Whatever you do don't install anything else.
- mayama 6y ago
  Same here. Upgrade to 20.04, but fresh install of chromium. Starts in 2sec in plain old HDD.
- fstephany 6y ago
  Is it installed as a Snap? From what I understood, only the first start is slow. Once the virtual disk had been decompressed, subsequent launches are much faster.
Matt3o12_ 6y ago
Apparently, snaps are compressed to save disk space, which is why they take so long to start: - https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/9scoif/snap_packages_are_very_slow_to_load_in_ubuntu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/9scoif/snap_package... Saving disk space is certainly useful for rarely used apps, however, your web browser (and any other frequencely used apps), shouldn't be compressed, especially if there is ample disk space.

finnjohnsen2 6y ago

this is one of those; ignorance is bliss. i havent noticed snap being slower and now I risk noticing and getting annoyed over it.

aritmo 6y ago
Someone told my sister about the RF radiation risks of WiFi and now she "has headaches".
m45t3r 6y ago
Yeah, startup times is something that you don't really notice until you have a system that is really fast and responsive, and them you simply get annoyed by when you're using a system with slow startup times again or get accustomed again with the slowness. Startup times didn't bother me too much, but nowadays it does, specially for things that my brain assumes that should be fast. This is why, for example, both my Neovim and Zsh configuration is tuned to start in <0.1s: time zsh -c exit zsh -c exit 0.00s user 0.00s system 84% cpu 0.007 total time nvim -c qall nvim -c qall 0.07s user 0.02s system 100% cpu 0.081 total It does makes a massive difference, for example spawning a new shell is instantaneous and when I know that I will make some small changes I much prefer to open a file in Neovim than Emacs (my main editor/IDE nowadays).

ordinaryperson 6y ago

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like Snaps. I wish all software would auto-update silently in the background -- when's the last time you even thought about upgrading Chrome? The author of this article claims it's too difficult to find Flatpak apps and that the Ubuntu software center prioritizes Snaps over .deb. Are platforms never allowed to migrate to a new standard? Why is it Canonical's fault that authors of individual applications have yet to migrate Snaps? If we all agree that on the whole auto-updating software is generally better and more secure than manually updated software, why not single out the applications that haven't migrated instead of blaming the whole standard? Maybe I'm just naive and not doing advanced super user stuff these Snap haters are doing but from a distance to me this resembles the systemd vs init controversy. One which, IMHO, Linux super users seemed unusually attached to an older standard for not always clear reasons. Snaps offer real benefits: maybe instead of complaining that 'this sucks' users could offer constructive criticism about how to improve the new standard. Just my opinion tho.

bluedino 6y ago
Chrome auto updates cause issues on the Mac. No thanks.
- ordinaryperson 6y ago
  OK, what issues does it cause? And are those issues outweighed by the security and standardization issues raised by non-updating software? I don't know who all remembers having to develop websites compatible with outdated versions of Internet Explorer but I do and still have nightmares about it.
  - bluedino 6y ago
    Crashes, freezes, stopping systems from sleeping... I don't want Google's (or anyone else's) code running in the background doing whatever it wants. Want to check for an update and notify me? Great. But don't do anything else.
    - 6y ago

greendave 6y ago

> Auto-updating of snaps can only be deferred at best, until at some point, like Windows, it auto-updates anyway. Even on metered connections, snaps auto-update anyway after some time. This attitude is obnoxious. Yes, not everybody is on a metered connection or running a mission-critical system, but some are, and it is hardly unreasonable to accommodate them.

koolba 6y ago
It’s beyond obnoxious. It’s your computer and there’s no way to disable it from mutating without file system hacks?
- kazinator 6y ago
  It's not your computer when Canonical is chummy with Microsoft.
- noncoml 6y ago
  There is. Don’t install Ubuntu. Use Debian.
  - ip26 6y ago
    The above might come across as flip, but I think it's actually spot on. Why would a mission critical or metered-connection-only machine be running the latest Ubuntu desktop anyway? Match the tool to the job.
    - indigodaddy 6y ago
      It usually wouldn’t even be running Debian. More likely CentOS/RHEL/Suse or a Solaris.
      - noncoml 6y ago
        That's the beauty of Linux Distros. We are spoiled for choice.

williesleg 6y ago

Yeah, ditched Ubuntu for Debian Testing. Had enough.

bluedino 6y ago

I'm a fan of Docker on the server so the idea of Snaps is great. Linux packaging is a pain, and one of the reasons distros exist. However, the implementation stinks right now. This isn't to say they won't get it right in a year or two.

beckler 6y ago

We tried to make an internal IoT device using Ubuntu Core and snaps because the capabilities of it were very promising. We started a PoC and about halfway through we hit a major roadblock. Our enterprise network does certificate substitution, and Ubuntu Core absolutely does not allow you to install your own certificates globally, so our devices would never receive updates. We tried EVERY hack we could think up, short of making our own core snap. We talked to Canonical about it, and they didn't seem interested in our fixing our complaints without a massive amount of money, so our PoC died, and we dropped Ubuntu entirely because of it.

comboy 6y ago
What did you end up using?
- beckler 6y ago
  We ultimately used a custom yocto image.
adrianN 6y ago
Sounds like a solid decision from Canonical tbh. Certificate substitution is terrible.
- kanox 6y ago
  MITM should be completely illegal. Why does this even need to be stated?
  - ccmcarey 6y ago
    Seriously, you can think of no reasons? Many competent companies MITM employee traffic to scan for malware, leaking confidential data, etc.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    Grandparent comment by beckler says they were trying to make some IoT product. That will be deployed in situations where that happens; if your customer has a MITM set up, you just nod your head and sell them something that works in that setup. You can't say, "MITM should be illegal, please buy my non-auto-updating solution anyway and stop it with your MITM." Good thing beckler found this while eating their own dogfood due to their own network being that way. Imagine that everything worked fine in their environment and then so customers came back with this issue. Then they would be beavering away hacking up their own core snap or whatever.

lmilcin 6y ago

Not sure what was the thinking. I am, as of this moment, in the process of migrating my laptop to from Ubuntu to Debian.

risho 6y ago
It is worth noting you can basically get all of the benefit of using ubuntu(a good gnome experience, ppa's, etc) but without any of the snap stuff by installing pop os. It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users, because it is still fully featured and a great overall experience even for a more adept linux user.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I don't know Pop OS. On the other hand, I have been using Debian on my PC since 1999 and only got Ubuntu for my laptop because I had trouble getting everything to work properly and Ubuntu seemed to do the job.
- mastax 6y ago
  > It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users Is it though? https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/ > Pop!_OS is an operating system for STEM and creative professionals who use their computer as a tool to discover and create. Okay but who is STEM specifically? Further down it mentions "Deep Learning" "Engineering" (Mentioned apps are all for software dev) "Media Production" "Bioinformatics". I don't know about you, but to me that gives the exact opposite impression of "something basically for scrubs and new linux users".

tkuraku 6y ago

I feel like snaps are trying to do too much. Applications are slow to start. Besides, I don't want the underlying system to be changing and updating all the time. For me the stability of RHEL/Centos with flatpak for desktop applications is perfect.

securityfreak 6y ago

Ubuntu 20.04 forced me to switch to Fedora Server on my home server. Pretty happy so far. I have significantly fresher package versions and most of the software tools I use offer a RPM package. I think I will wait for snap to mature, before giving it another go.

lifeAsNerd 6y ago
I don't understand. You stopped using Ubuntu server because of snap? Can you clarify?
- jablan 6y ago
  they didn't say it was ubuntu server, it might just as well be ubuntu desktop, and used as a home server (i.e. a box used mostly for server software, but no necessarily without desktop environment).

commoner 6y ago

Snap has an issue on certain Linux distributions (including Fedora and Arch) in which many applications render tofu characters (□□□□□) instead of text. https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-on-fedora-and-arch/12484 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-o... Canonical needs to invest in compatibility if it wants Snap to be adopted in distributions other than Ubuntu. Flatpak doesn't have this issue, and unlike Snap, its server implementation is decentralized, free, and open source.

simion314 6y ago
Isn't flatpack designed from the point of Desktop users (GNOME) where snaps are designed with a server in mind? This would mean that are very different and you can't just substitute them.
- commoner 6y ago
  While there are Snaps for server software, Snaps are marketed as a way to publish applications "for desktop, cloud, and Internet of Things" "across Linux on any distribution or version" - and users expect Snap applications to work properly on all Linux distributions, not just Ubuntu. Otherwise, developers could just publish a .deb package for Ubuntu like they did before. https://snapcraft.io https://snapcraft.io Yes, Flatpak is targeted to desktop applications while Snap has a broader scope, but it's questionable whether Snap's mandatory automatic updates are desirable in a server environment.
  - simion314 6y ago
    My point was about making clear that snap is not a flatpack clone, the 2 projects were started from 2 different perspective and have different architectures, just wanted to inform some people that would think that are the exact same thing and Canonical can JUST drop snap and adopt flatpack. Edit: about autoupdates, I agree, the user should always have the choice.
  - flatiron 6y ago
    I don’t even know how’s it’s questionable. Every single update we do to prod gets regression tested except for “cross yer fingers” 0-days that we are exposed to.

phosphophyllite 6y ago

It's fun to see how linux community always tries to make over engineered solution of any problem, instead of repeating Mac OS approach. Idea of ONE SINGLE DEPENDENCY TREE is just not for desktop.

6a74 6y ago

There was a thread on HN about disabling Snaps last week. I found the process pretty straight-forward. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661

jablan 6y ago
It's not about whether it can be disabled or not, but about the direction Canonical is heading to. Also, I wouldn't call installing Chromium from .deb in 20.04 exactly straightforward.

badsectoracula 6y ago

> I installed Pop!_OS 20.04 LTS just yesterday, hoping to get a better out of the box experience. I’ll log back with thoughts about it next week. I tried Pop!_OS 20.04 in a VM just yesterday and my experience was dreadful especially with its "store" application. Things like the entire program freezing randomly for seconds while trying to fetch things, images taking ages to show up (btw, i have high speed connection), showing me ridiculous download sizes for flatpak packages (think something like Geany requiring 1.1GB or something like that), not giving any indication about download processes if you navigate away, wasting screen space when showing applications in a category (it uses a list view where each entry gets a huge icon at the left side, its title, some very short and useless description next to the icon like "Goofy is a goof foogbar", an "Install" button at the right side and vast swaths of emptiness in between), etc. Also had UI screwups everywhere, like the Preferences application cutting out the "Preferences" title in the titlebar to "Preferenc..." when a) those three dots took the same space as the rest of the word and b) that title was the only thing in the entire titlebar with almost 500px of unused space at each side. Or controls moving and windows resizing a few pixels after i start typing something (e.g. trying to type some number in the calculator has the divider between the buttons and the number move down a little the first time i type something). And the entire "let's merge titlebar and toolbar" idea is as awful as it was when GNOME 3 introduced it (well, actually it was iTunes but i do not remember anyone ever saying that they liked iTunes). Trying some of the preinstalled apps, i accidentally clicked some tool buttons trying to move a window around (the UI being slow didn't help). And it was dog slow. Terribly, irredeemably, laughably slow. Opening the icons had the entire UI chug worse than my 386 running Windows 3.1 (and actually i'm pretty sure if i wrote a program to move icons around in Windows 3.1 it would be faster). IMO the only time i felt Linux had a high quality desktop environment was actually the first Linux distribution i used: Caldera OpenLinux 2.3 (to the point that in my youthful enthusiasm i force installed it to every relative and friend's computers i encountered :-P). That distribution was very well put together and thought out (try to find it in archive.org and test it in 86box or PCem with an emulated Pentium 200 and 32MB of RAM to see what i'm talking about). It had some issues, but two decades later things should have been much improved - instead everything went downhill after that and for most Linux users their desktop use is mainly a matter of how much tolerance you have for all the issues you encounter (ie. when you see someone having a problem and there is a reply like "i never had that problem" or "i've been using Linux XYZ for years and that has never been my experience", it is usually from someone who had a high enough tolerance that anything non-major does not even register anymore).

nottorp 6y ago

Can you still install debs with apt command line? I started to ignore ubuntu's attempts at a graphical app store long ago.

mavhc 6y ago
yes, and the stupid thing is you get a second copy of the application, different version, different UI, seems very broken

bproven 6y ago

I know Snap maybe offered tighter sandboxing, but why didnt AppImage take off? It seems like it solves the problems of deb/rmp/etc war and is easy to create for app devs...

e2le 6y ago
I much prefer AppImage, just recently I created one that packaged an old windows game and included the required dependencies (wine, libopenal, etc). Starting the AppImage is as simple as "./game.AppImage" and in theory would work on any Linux distribution. I think it has good potential for preservation of old applications and video games. AppImage is awesome.
the_why_of_y 6y ago
AppImage is not at all easy to create for app devs because there's no SDK, unlike FlatPak and Snap.

woofie11 6y ago

Is there any sensible documentation on this somewhere? I've been running Debian, and then Ubuntu, for a quarter-century now, largely because things just worked. .deb is nearly perfect. Having used Docker, it's the last thing I want on my desktop, for a whole slew of reasons. It's odd, Windows and Linux switched spots in that time. Windows 10 is faster, more stable, and more understandable than Ubuntu. Ubuntu is increasingly layered, convoluted, and bloated. Windows runs on light systems. Ubuntu requires a ton of RAM and CPU. I think this might be the thing which will makes me give up Ubuntu.

josteink 6y ago
> It's odd, Windows and Linux switched spots in that time. Windows 10 is faster, more stable, and more understandable than Ubuntu. I mean, you can claim a lot of stuff about lot of things, but saying Windows is understandable is pretty rich. You can’t even reliably cron a single script to run once an hour without weird, unfathomable, undebuggable bugs starting to pop up. Care to elaborate exactly what you mean?
- woofie11 6y ago
  I have three machine, one is Windows, one is Ubuntu, and one is Mac. The statement was relative. I never said Windows was understandable. I said more understandable. Nineties-era Debian, I felt I understood every piece of, to where I could fill in details with documentation or code in a few minutes. 2020-era Ubuntu developed the same layeritis as Windows, only worse. Microsoft cleaned up a little bit from the bad, old Windows 95 days too. Windows 10 is slightly simpler than Windows 95, but a heck of a lot more stable.

vanviegen 6y ago

For largely this reason, I've just switched to Manjaro after over two decades (ouch!) of using Debian and Ubuntu. I'm very happy with it! Package installs are unbelievably fast. But mostly, the AUR repository of user contributed packaging scripts is awesome! Although I'm a bit worried about installing packages from random internet people, they are generally short and very easy to check for unwanted *ware. Haven't been disappointed yet!

wayneftw 6y ago
Came here to say this. I've been on Manjaro at work and at home for 2 years now. It's the longest running Linux desktop distro I've ever maintained and it's precisely due to the excellent AUR repo system. I've had to install very few things from source, mostly small, opinionated system tweak utilities. But even installing from source is easier than hunting down a PPA and a key and trying to keep apt from getting corrupted somehow.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

100% agree! I hate snaps and Ubuntu is overdoing it too much now. I've moved to Alpine for servers and Arch for desktop now.

karmakaze 6y ago

I don't use Software Center so the only thing I should be concerned about is getting the snap flavor of Chrome instead of the .deb. My main browser is Firefox anyway. I get that the forced direction toward snaps seems premature. I wouldn't stop using it though if there's simple measures to get around it. Also use Xfce/Xubuntu.

tom_devref 6y ago

I really dislike the way snaps create disk partitions. When I run $ df I want to see what I defined during OS installation, not a dozen nasty snap mounts. An application misusing fundamental system features like this feels like a violation of some UNIX principle.

mrweasel 6y ago
Very much agreed, the fact that nobody at Ubuntu noticed that the extra mount points is a best annoying is kinda impressive. I’m not blaming Ubuntu, nor Snaps for this issue, but we had a new server come online and our monitoring noticed that two or three partition was already at 100% usage. Those where snap mount point.
- tom_devref 6y ago
  I don't use Ubuntu on servers but I imagine snaps would cause monitors like Munin and Logwatch to freak out.
jlgaddis 6y ago
FWIW, you can pass the "-t" parameter to "df" to limit the output to specific filesystem types (e.g., "ext4", "xfs", etc.).
pelario 6y ago
I cannot agree more and I'm actually surprised that I haven't heard this complaint more often/loudly. Perhaps there is something we are missing ?
noisy_boy 6y ago
Couldn't agree more. I have resorted to using an alias: alias df='df -x"squashfs" -x"tmpfs"'
zbuf 6y ago
We must be nearly at the point in the plot when somebody declares that df "never did work properly anyway" and rewrites it.

veesahni 6y ago

Anybody have commentary on how this snap stuff impacts those who use Ubuntu on their EC2 nodes? So far I see complaints about Chromium, which typically doesn't exist in a server environment.

McGlockenshire 6y ago
Why did you choose to use Ubuntu on a server instead of Debian?

ohazi 6y ago

If you're looking for an alternative to Ubuntu but want to stick with a Debian-based distribution, I'll continue to recommend Debian testing. It's a rolling release, so you don't have to stop what you're doing every 6 months - 3 years to install a huge update that changes the way everything works. It's more stable than the name would suggest, as long as you follow a few reasonable best-practices [1]. Software available on Debian testing is pretty up-to-date... If you're previously tried Debian stable but were put off by ancient packages, you won't see this in testing. Keep in mind that Debian testing (not stable) is upstream for Ubuntu's releases, so Debian testing's packages will be about as new as Ubuntu's packages on release day (but they're updated continuously, so they stay fresh). I have personal systems running Debian testing or unstable that have been running continuously for 5-10 years without issues. They don't look or feel any different than systems I set up a few months ago. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23044878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23044878

wegs 6y ago
Is there any stable way to go Ubuntu -> Debian? I don't want testing. Stable is fine. I find each version of Ubuntu worse than the previous. It's change for the sake of change, and as in this case, something really thoughtful like .deb gets replaced with something which appears slapped together poorly. I just want a stable, working system, and Ubuntu seems to no longer be the way to have that.
- simcop2387 6y ago
  Best way is to backup your home directory and re-install. trying to do anything else is going to cause you far more headaches than anything could be worth. You may also want to keep some places like /var/lib/ if you have databases going, etc. I'd just do a complete backup and restore pieces as you find you need them.
- paines 6y ago
  Set your system up to have like 90% of the available disk space for /home. Rest is root. You can replace your whole system within half an hour.

diablo1 6y ago

> Browsing the Snap Store sucks Yeah a lot of the software you see in the store is legacy software that seems to be stuck on an older version. Also many of the items are lacking a screenshot and a comprehensive description of what the software does. I find myself using the store to discover software and then go to the software's official website (usually on Github) and install it the oldskool way by doing: ./software.deb

gertrunde 6y ago

And for some reason the server installer doesn't set up any kind of swap at all. And forces snaps and lxd on you, which also brings in lovely things like cloud-init... You spend 10-15 minutes cleaning up a supposedly minimal install.

rohan1024 6y ago

Not the best way to disable this but it works. My /etc/hosts: 127.0.0.1 api.snapcraft.io

hypnotist 6y ago

Can anyone recommend good rpm based distro for desktop(business env)?

BenjiWiebe 6y ago
CentOS or Fedora?

rwmj 6y ago

Nothing about everything being statically linked into a big binary blob with very little connection to sources? It's my main problem with containers in general.

dirtydroog 6y ago

Is this an issue if we upgrade to 20.04 on our GCP machines? Is all this nonsense there for server releases?

gsej 6y ago

I've been using kubuntu for a while and while I like it a lot, it seems very "chatty" to me - way too many notifications which I have to disable one at a time. I only discovered the snap situation when Chromium started prompting before it would open files, and I couldn't find a way to disable it. In the end I installed Chrome, but I am looking around for an alternative distro.

stevepike 6y ago

So I run Kubuntu on my work laptop (X1 Carbon) and just upgraded to 20.04 last weekend. I had a vague idea there were different competing standards for "linux apps that work across distribution" but didn't know people had such a problem with snap. It just seemed like a useful tool for installing proprietary stuff that wouldn't normally be packaged by the distribution. I just checked and the snaps I have that aren't from canonical are: datagrip, slack, discord, and spotify. I haven't noticed any slow app boot times and I think it's great that it's so easy to install third party software. Is snap somehow user-hostile?

blacksmith_tb 6y ago
There are some downsides (footprint, forced updates, speed, etc.), though depending on what you're installing those may not be deal-breakers. I'm using plain Ubuntu 20.04 and I tend to install stuff via apt and not snap in general (but I am fine with installing non-essential things via snap). The software store has a subtle toggle in the upper right for choosing to install a package as a snap or via apt when both are available.
- stevepike 6y ago
  Yeah, is there a plan for it to long-term replace apt? I've just always used apt as my first choice and then snap for random things like spotify.
  - toyg 6y ago
    They are making a very big bet on snap, I would expect most of their desktop apps to be slowly moved there in the next few years. At that point apt would be kept around strictly for essential system packages and (hopefully) for server usage.
- RMPR 6y ago
  Imho the principal downside (which you didn't mention) is the vendor lockdown.
excalibur 6y ago

LifeLiverTransp 6y ago

Any movement the buisness Operative Systems producers do, the FOS movement blindly mimics. In this case, treat the consumer like cattle and force your design decision upon him. (Win 8)I cant wait for FOS spyware..

OrgNet 6y ago

Not sure whats the point of using snaps in a stable OS release, but they are fairly easy to remove: https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-20-04/ https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-... ie: I thought they were more useful for installing a random app that is not supported by your OS... Is it easier to include a snap then it is to create a regular package? or are there any other advantages?

Stierlitz 6y ago

There was nothing wrong with Synaptic + Deb files that needed fixing. Same with Systemd and now they're going after our home directories (never mind that it breaks SSH). My home directory is already portable as in all my config information is in .dot files. As for snap, yet again a solution in search of a problem. you can download a nightly-build as a compressed archive and run it without installing. I too will be moving with my next installation. any recommendations for a small fast distro where the GUI doesn't get in your way?

ashtonkem 6y ago

I’m sympathetic to most of these arguments, operating systems should typically trend towards more clarity and user choice; especially ones likely to be used by professionals like Linux. But I will say that the Ubuntu software store has sucked for as long as I’ve ever used Ubuntu; they made it pretty years ago, and apparently never once considered performance or behavior. I would regularly search in the store for applications I knew existed, and it would either take forever or not find them. I always gave up and used apt, at least until I gave up on Ubuntu altogether.

jlokier 6y ago

I've been using Ubuntu Server non-stop on a wide range of differently configured (real aka bare-metal as well as virtual) servers for over 10 years. As a server OS I've really found it useful. (Except for that time when they shipped buggy versions of high-availability tools, warned against by the upstream maintainers, which segfaulted occasionally and showed inconsistent state across different nodes - thanks :/) I found it an improvement over Debian. And that an improvement over Red Hat (before it was RHEL and Fedora). And that an improvement over Slackware. CentOS and RHEL got used too in parallel on some sites, and were very solid, but with their own annoyances. But recently, on the server, LXD (aka LXC 2) switched from being a .deb package to being a Snap. They made a policy decision to stop shipping the .deb, to force server admins to start using Snap whether they wanted to or not, I guess. So I was forced to use Snap just to run LXD, which was annoying as things like configs and paths to the container images are buried inside the Snap somewhere, and various things with container-uids and host-container shared mounts stopped working. At least, the upgrade broke a bunch of working scripts. But it wasn't too painful, just a bit of work that felt like it was caused by an unnecessary annoyance. Ironically given other comments, the Snap does not seem to auto-update unlike all the other .debs on the system! Now, hearing about Ubuntu 20.04 and application snaps, I'm extra cautious before assuming Ubuntu 20.04 Server will be a smooth change. I'll take a look, and if the server software is much like 18.04 (except for annoying LXD) I'll use 20.04. But if they've moved a lot of things away from .deb to Snaps-only on the server, that's going to be some overhead to deal with, and it will at least result in evaluating whether switching distro is no more effort and a better choice. I've not been a fan of CentOS, but that time I was burned by the high-availability tools due to Ubuntu (and Debian) shipping a dangerously buggy version in an LTS release did make me realise that RHEL/CentOS are well maintained in that department and just wouldn't do that.

nromiun 6y ago

> Snap applications auto-update and that’s fine if Ubuntu wants to keep systems secure. But it can’t even be turned off manually. OMG. Is this real? This is the exact reason I use Linux instead of Windows 10 or macOS. I am not a grandma who can't stay up to date on tech news. At the least there should be a toggle for power users. But no, you can only defer it. Am I the only one who doesn't like it when your already slow internet slows down even further? It feels like hell when you are working. I am not upgrading to this. I have been using Arch Linux as my personal OS. Maybe I should look into Debian for my VMs. And just read this thread[1]. Is this how they treat their users? Even Reddit is better then this. 1. https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/is-ubuntu-software-going-to-be-remove-for-snap-snap-store/14542/58 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/is-ubuntu-software-going-to-b...

koheripbal 6y ago
...dumb question: Does this apply to Ubuntu Server as well??? Because if so, I'm sticking with 18.04.
- geek_at 6y ago
  only if you install your server applications using snap
  - littlethrowaway 6y ago
    So, why are people getting upset about this then? If you can simply just _not use snaps_?
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      I'm guessing it's not an option when using the GUI?
- nromiun 6y ago
  I was using the regular version for remote desktop VMs. I don't know about the server version.

bgorman 6y ago

Ubuntu is doing more harm than good to desktop linux at this point in time. Continuing to push Xorg over Wayland. Removing support for flatpak (cross-distro way of using sandboxed apps) Horrible PPA system that works much worse in practice than the AUR or other ports systems. No daemonless docker (podman) Lots of people try Ubuntu since it is the "most popular" version of Linux, realize it isn't great and think desktop Linux is in bad shape. The reality is Canonical doesn't seem to have good ideas and refuses to incorporate the good ideas from other distros.

abeyer 6y ago
Ubuntu tried shipping wayland on by default already and it was a clusterf* and made that release all but unusable. Wayland isn't ready for an LTS release yet.
- bgorman 6y ago
  Wayland is the default display server for Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8. I have been running Wayland for the last 2 years and have never had any problems. (Admittedly I haven't used Nvidia)
  - bboozzoo 6y ago
    Can you share a single window in eg. Meet? Do alternative input methods work for accessibility? FWIW I would like Wayland to finally take off, but each time there some random shit that's still broken despite 12 years of development.
  - abeyer 6y ago
    It may well be Canonical's fault and they just screwed things up...but regardless, if they haven't managed to ship it in usable form in an off-cycle release, it's not ready for LTS. In fact after the last time, they said they would only try again when they could go a full cycle of 3 non-LTS releases with reasonable results before it would land in LTS. And their expectations before shipping in the off-cycle didn't seem too crazy (ie the X11 compatibility layer not constantly crashing the whole session and taking out all the user's applications) but still weren't met in time for 18.10. I think they're slated to try again now for 20.10. > Admittedly I haven't used Nvidia Yeah, that. Not supporting ~half the video cards in the world sounds like a clusterf*. I know it's largely nvidia's fault, but at the same time, I have a lot of investment with them, and none w/ wayland.

daneel_w 6y ago

I was asked by a friend to get Netflix working on his Lubuntu 20.04 Linux laptop. He was running Chromium which comes without Widevine, and the extension wasn't available in the Chrome Web Store, but it can be enabled by simply making libwidevine.so available in Chromium's library path. But how to add a file to the sandboxed lib/ directory of a Snap? You can't without rebuilding the entire Snap as your own custom product, and then it's no longer a standard package from the repo so you lose the blessings of package updates! Maybe there's a better way, but I sure could not find one. I had to ditch Chromium and unfortunately resort to Chrome directly provided by Google, with all of its privacy problems.

CameronNemo 6y ago
Did Firefox not ship with widevine?
- SahAssar 6y ago
  Usually firefox does not ship with it, but it's a one-click install when needed. It depends on the package though, some packagers build it with it bundled some don't. Since it's not a FOSS component it can't be bundled in FOSS distros though.

Priem19 6y ago

So that's why two applications suddenly couldn't install anymore. Aw man, I've been so happy with Xubuntu the last couple of years, I really don't want to have to find another distro.

Iolaum 6y ago

I moved from Ubuntu MATE to Fedora MATE for this reason. One reason I use free software is that I get to have the final say in what my computer does. There's a big thread at snapcraft forums asking for the ability to shut off updates. Canonical wouldn't bulge. So I ve moved elsewhere and thank the Linux ecosystem for allowing diversity so that I can still use it as I d like to.

gjsman-1000 6y ago

I filed a bug a few years back asking why Snap refused to allow any repositories outside of Canonical's and had no open-source server implementation. That blew up. https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/08/bug-report-asks-why-snappy https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/08/bug-report-asks-why-snap...

pkaye 6y ago

I tried snaps and I'm okay with them atleast for non-core apps. Like games and a few bigger programs I want isolated from the rest of the systems. But I wouldn't want my calculator or browser as part of snaps.

_xerxes_ 6y ago

My issue is that they still have not sorted out suspend and resume. Half the time when I reopen my laptop lid my keyboard no longer works. Had the same issue on 18.04.

shock 6y ago

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for-snap-from-store/707 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer's arrogance (we know better than you when you should be applying updates) I will be voting with my feet and will be installing Pop!_OS instead of Ubuntu, and if snapd is present I will remove it. The stated goal of Niemeyer, to have users use updated software, would have been fulfilled in my case if I had a way to see what updates would be applied beforehand, instead of the updates being force-installed. Lengthy dialog with Niemeyer in the forum thread seems to have been a waste of time for all the people who participated trying to convince him to allow disabling of force-installed updates so I suggest you do the same as me and vote with your feet!

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
donmcronald 6y ago
If they make it automatic and unmanageable by default, they can sell those features back to us tomorrow as an enterprise edition or a private Snap store. It’s the same thing MS did with Windows 10. You buy the product, but have to pay again if you want any semblance of control. Us normal users are now test subjects for the real customers. Look how non-enterprise Office 365 customers are on a monthly cadence for forced updates and the expensive plans get SAC or better.
- shock 6y ago
  > If they make it automatic and unmanageable by default, they can sell those features back to us tomorrow as an enterprise edition or a private Snap store. I'm not sure whether you're being ironic, but they're doing just that.
  - deleted 6y ago

jmgpeeters 6y ago

Oh god. What a shame. Another distro down the drain.

d_tr 6y ago

I do not have an informed opinion on the different aspects of snaps, because I haven't had to deal with them at all. That said, the feature "automatic updates whenever the system feels like it", is an annoyance for me, even if I can defer them. Typing "sudo apt full-upgrade" takes a few seconds. I just use Ubuntu Server and get only what I need, which is available through the APT repositories. I have not noticed these repositories getting any smaller in favor of snaps and I am already using the 20.10 development branch. The Ubuntu Server installer does not install any snaps by default. However, snapd is there but it is trivial to remove it if one wants to. Chromium is the only "loss" I have witnessed and I also saw this mentioned in other comments. Note that there exists a really nice PPA, maintained by Pop!_OS, that contains quite a few packages, including Chromium. I am wondering what security issues do snaps address that apparmor, whose purpose is security, does not. I also think it is unfortunate that we need snaps to deal with different applications / packages needing different library versions...

errantspark 6y ago

I used Ubuntu for 4 or 5 years as my daily driver for development. Snaps made me swap back to Arch I haven't looked back. All it took was one `df`.

mixmastamyk 6y ago

I only use the micro editor as a snap. The chromium snap was forced on me. I keep it around to test and separate web stuff. From that minimal use I get a daemon running and a dozen bullshit mounts. Wish they just statically compiled it.

jnurmine 6y ago

To disallow control of the updates by the users is probably well-intended as some kind of a trade-off, but what if I don't want a new feature that is coming in the next version? What if I already know it's broken in my system configuration -- I hope for a fix for 60 days, and then what? What if the fix never comes? Does my system stop working? What if I'm a business relying on that specific version? Do I just say "oh well" and close shop? And what about airgapped systems? I understand there's the "security", but then, on the other hand: 1. If snapd gets forked because of this, the snap ecosystem becomes fragmented and Canonical loses control of part of their baby. 2. If snapd stays as-is, and Canonical keeps preventing user control of the update cadence, then people will just run away from using snaps once the magical auto-updates create any high-profile problem. Lxd is a snap as well, so containers will be in the crosshairs. All in all it feels like a silly decision if you ask me.

djhaskin987 6y ago

This is the first time in years I've tried Fedora again and it has to do with snap in part.

0x8BADF00D 6y ago

Why not install Alpine Linux? It follows the principle of minimalism and doesn't have a lot of package bloat, like a lot of .deb based distributions.

bamboozled 6y ago

We work on a product where we must deploy different Linux distributions for customers but it’s imperative they’re stable and we’ve tested the image at an exact point in time. Snap is an extremely big pain when it comes to this. We have to workaround for forceful updates by telling it to use a non-existent proxy, it’s very dumb.

hakube 6y ago

Snap is really terrible. Flatpaks and AppImages are the way to go. I wish they are supported more (especially AppImage)

robomartin 6y ago

So...I guess we are done with Ubuntu then. This is terrible. We use Ubuntu on systems where bad things can happen if software becomes unstable due to an unwanted update. In other words, nobody, nobody would ever even dream of installing any software of updating the OS without authorization. And this authorization would require regression testing in order to verify the changes would not compromise the system. I don't understand how anyone working on Ubuntu could think this is a good idea. To be clear, if Linux (let's say Ubuntu) is going to become a viable OS for the masses it probably needs something like this. I get it. However, there is no reason to break the traditional stability of Linux and even risk creating danger. Disabling this mode should be as simple as one setting. In fact, it should be offered as a choice during installation with a full explanation. This is where they could make a pitch for the functionality. Those of us who don't need it (or can't use it for other reasons) can opt out and move on. Consumers, sure, I don't care.

luizfelberti 6y ago

For someone who has been out of the loop on the whole Snap vs Flatpak situation, could anyone give (or point to) a comparison on their technical merits, and why would one be better than the other?

coleifer 6y ago
Google it bro

coleifer 6y ago

This old saw again? Shit. Just don't use Ubuntu. The writing is on the wall.

verelo 6y ago

So theres one huge issue with Snap no one in my circles is talking about - i dont want my server changing without me controlling it! This seems like a) Someone could get an update in without my knowledge and it'll get pushed to me without my consent b) if the code changes, i want to control that, if a package changes, i also want to control that....its my server, i want to control it all! On a desktop, maybe I could handle this, but for a server, its absolutely a no go. wtf are they thinking?

weakfish 6y ago

Can someone explain why it's fashionable to hate Snap? I am a casual Linux user (Ubuntu VM for schoolwork and projects that WSL can't handle) and don't get the hate.

nullc 6y ago

This kind of unconstrained and minimally accountable automatic update is incompatible with strong security. I already wouldn't use ubuntu due to their long established phone-home practices, but this further strengthens the case. FWIW, I'm pretty happy with the recently released Fedora 32 so far.

Jedd 6y ago

I've been running Debian since ~1994, and never really got the excitement about Ubuntu. Some colleagues did, but it seemed to be more about the marketing. I've always been a KDE user, which was always a first class citizen option during the Debian installation process. For Gnome / Unity users having that default promoted and baked into the distribution might have been compelling. The refrain 'but it's so much easier to install' never really sat well with me -- I hand-install my desktop & laptop OS's infrequently, given the upgrade process (with Debian) has always been wonderfully robust. I auto-install and maintain, almost exclusively headless, every other VM, so a nicer installer wasn't relevant there. Claims of 'stodgy' versions are rebutted by using testing or unstable branches, or even backports. For enterprise, stodgy's often a plus in any case -- look at what you get with RHEL/CentOS.

d_tr 6y ago
I also use KDE Plasma, but even the experimental Debian repository does not yet have 5.18. Otherwise, I would just use Sid.
- Jedd 6y ago
  Look, I'm a huge advocate of KDE, but objectively I'm struggling to see what's ground-breaking and desperately urgent in 5.18. Ubuntu (or rather Kubuntu's) schedule [1] unsurprisingly isn't faster than the mothership's. I guess there's been a lot going on in the world since February, so people haven't been 100% focused on getting free software packaged up into a free distribution as fast as normal. [1] https://community.kde.org/Get_KDE_Software_on_Your_Linux_Distro#Kubuntu https://community.kde.org/Get_KDE_Software_on_Your_Linux_Dis...

iknowstuff 6y ago

Ok, a central store is a problem, but I don't get hn's bitterness about autoupdates. I don't mind autoupdates of apps, especially sandboxed ones like Snaps, and especially when they can be rolled back if issues arise. Snaps do, in fact, allow for easy reverting to a previously used revision: $ sudo snap revert vlc vlc reverted to 3.0.5-1 It will even remain on the reverted version without updating until another version is published.

pxi 6y ago

Snap is irritating, but for a single desktop, easy to remove and easy to live without. It's not half as annoying as owning a samsung android device.

tenkabuto 6y ago

What are other distros where snap isn't an issue/isn't installed?

detaro 6y ago
As far as I know only Ubuntu uses it by default, because it is their thing.

dchyrdvh 6y ago

Ubuntu has followed the same path of first building their user base on trust and quality and then monetizing it hard with various shady schemes. Even coffee shops do it. First they sell high quality coffee for little margin and "don't expect or accept tips". Then they switch to the dark side to monetize the trust: they cut hard on materials, they pay $2/hour to employees and expect the customers to subsidize their minimum wages with tips (that are now accepted and very much expected).

dbsmith83 6y ago

Well, I'm out then. Sorry, but at the end of the day, it's a user's machine, not yours, Snappy/Canonical. I will not use a system which will not let me turn off something that installs shit on MY machine. I can't believe the arrogance of the snappy devs. Just shut up and give the people what they want.

Agitatra 6y ago

Actually, I'm startled by the religious believe that nothing can go wrong with "snap"! What is so new to snap that it is so reliable, in contrast to Debian-packages? Currently I'm trying to update my 18.04 to 20.04 but get stuck, because the Python3-Version shipped lately seem to have issues. So, the upgrade process abruptly stops, leaving the system in a half-baked state. While I do not complain, Ubuntu is free, I'm terrified by the thought such an upgrade could be initiated, without me monitoring it, and having the chance to try it on a non-productive system first. Currently I can live with the snap-approach, because I don’t have to use it at the time being, but if this is the way Canonical will proceed, I probably will have to vote with my feet too. Mark (not Shuttleworth :)