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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

427 points by s3r3nity 7y ago

thecleaner 7y ago
So they will consider what ? Recommendation letters ? Maybe they dont realise that people from disadvantaged groups dont really have the luxury to volunteer at one of those fancy NGOs. Standardized tests are actually except for the super expensive textbooks in the US. If these books for basic education could somehow be made free but oh wait - socialism.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  > So they will consider what? They explain it very clearly: The SAT or ACT, and high school grades. They are just skipping the subject tests, because they don't think they are useful. The subject tests are the optional tests that students can take in addition to the normal SAT.
thatiscool 7y ago
I can project the going south of MIT.
- Koshkin 7y ago
  BU?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hhs 7y ago
Earlier this year, Caltech made the decision to eliminate the SAT subject tests: https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/caltech-eliminate-requirement-sat-subject-test-scores-admissions https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/caltech-eliminate-require...
codingslave 7y ago
Most of this is to obscure their admission criteria. Harvard has come under fire for actively discriminating against Asian applicants. By removing a standard test, these colleges can actively discriminate whilst making it more difficult to prove admissions bias from a numerical and arguably more objective standard.
- krastanov 7y ago
  They are removing the extra optional tests, not the main SAT test. Sounds great to me, as these extra tests just show you have the money to take them. Your comment is an unfounded opinion, please do not present it with the certainty of a fact.
  - lainga 7y ago
    The first sentence of GP was, but the second statement was fact, and the third a description of a plausible possibility.
  - metalforever 7y ago
    Low income students get a fee waiver
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    The SAT IIs are not extra/optional if you're applying to most selective colleges/universities. They aren't the main SAT, but they are far from optional for students who would be considering MIT.
- tryptophan 7y ago
  See also the recent restructuring of the SAT, which changed the scoring so more people have perfect/high scores. Harvard et al can now pick from a wider pool and still claim they have the "best and brightest".
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  There's been a similar debate over subject GREs in my field. The argument has been made that subject GREs are racist/sexist, because of the differing distributions of test scores in different demographic groups. There is a strong social pressure to accept this argument, despite its obvious absurdity, leading most people in the field to do so (and if they disagreed, they probably wouldn't tell you). The problem is that graduate school admissions committees are left with very few quantitative measures. Undergrad grades are difficult to compare, because every university grades differently, and applicants come from different countries with completely different grading scales. So many people score perfectly on the quantitative GRE that it's nearly useless. The verbal GRE seems irrelevant to a scientific field, and it seems pointless to rule out international applicants because they don't know the meaning of the word "garrulous." In short, the subject GRE was one of the only uniform quantitative measures available to admissions committees, and now it's considered "racist." There upshot, ironically, is that the elimination of quantitative measures makes discrimination easier to hide. This discrimination is meant to be positive, helping increase representation of underrepresented groups. The applicants who suffer most from this policy are those who are just on the line between admission and rejection, and who don't come from the "correct" demographic. The people pushing these policies think they're changing the world for the better, but it sure looks unfair to the individuals they're denying entry to. Applicants are being treated as representatives of their race or gender, rather than as individuals who should be considered individually.
yardie 7y ago
I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting students much richer than I who had multi year SAT prep courses with actual exam questions!
- duckMuppet 7y ago
  Anyone can study the SAT prep books for free at a bookstore a few hours at a time daily. If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. One can self-study the SAT prep book or self-study their biology book and in both cases can potentially be more knowledgeable than those who attended a formal university class or prep workshop. Most students aren't driven to do that though. This goes to the fundamental problem, that our university system at present is really just a credentialing and signaling system.
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    > If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. Yes, this another big problem caused by (too much emphasis on) standardised testing. I learnt the most in classes that didn't do this. But people do better on tests when they do do this. Standardised tests are destroying our education system.
    - naniwaduni 7y ago
      Goodhart's law in action!
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      Surely the standardization matters? Teaching to an aptitude test is clearly counterproductive (and ditto tricks for hacking the test--like just testing each multiple choice answer instead of solving an equation). On the other hand. the AP classes I took in high school (admittedly, a long time ago) seemed pretty reasonable. Perhaps you could quibble with how the syllabus weighted various subjects, or the (mercifully few) classes on how structure exam answers. Overall though, I felt like I got a decent education in Spanish/History/Physics/etc from those courses.
jimbob45 7y ago
Note to those who haven't been in high school for some time: these aren't the main test. The main test still gets considered (in addition to your parents' money) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests
- rickwierenga 7y ago
  > (in addition to your parents' money) That is not true. MIT is need blind which means it doesn't consider financial needs [1]. [1] https://mitadmissions.org/afford/cost-aid-basics/access-affordability/ https://mitadmissions.org/afford/cost-aid-basics/access-affo...
  - thedance 7y ago
    "As for the children of prominent campus donors, [former MIT director of undergraduate admissions] Crowley said a college's development office might reach out to the dean of admissions to say, "Hey, just so you know, Lisa's dad has been very generous to us in the past, or something."
    - hksh 7y ago
      Since one isn't provided this is the top google result containing the quote [1]. The context of the linked article is that Crowley now works for an admission prep company IvyWise and this quote may not directly reference MIT but his broader experience in this more recent role. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-scandal-two-ex-admissions-officers-explain-behind-scenes-n983796 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-scanda...
Dalrymple 7y ago
This is indeed a strange decision for MIT. The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. While there are reports of people raising their scores artificially on the non-subject tests by hundreds of points through these short-term methods, the subjects tests have long had a reputation as being more representative of what you really know.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. Who cares what the conventional wisdom says? The psychometric results are that SAT I scores and SAT II scores predict performance about equally well in isolation and don't have more predictive value in combination than they do in isolation. In other words, they measure exactly the same thing. (Contrast the other major predictor, high school GPA, where the predictive value of considering GPA + SAT in combination somewhat exceeds the predictive value of either metric individually.)
  - posterboy 7y ago
    There is another implication as a consequence of the statement "the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests." That is, I first read thag the students don't suffer under these conditions. It is a valuable trait no doubt, to be able to cram swaths of loosely associated facts. I'd argue that it's a vital trade for study, but perhaps it is less severe than only twenty years ago, because very powerful memory aids have become ubiquitious. > predict performance about equally well having no tires or no engine predicts performance of a car--or rather the lack thereof--equally well. Yet grip and horsepower are independent variables. I think that means SAT scores don't predict success too well at all beyond a certain threshold. Having the right motivation (haha, a pun) for a certain disciplin might make a huge difference. So you can test e.g. vocabulary learning in general, or top9cal knowledge, which requires precise choices of vocabulary nonetheless, but one not found in a general dictionary. It's more like knowing which dictionaries exist, and what texts are referenced therein.
hnburnsy 7y ago
Does MIT ask for AMC/AIME scores which are miles above the SAT Math Subject tests?
- whymauri 7y ago
  Yes. But it is optional.
- chapplap 7y ago
  Yes, they are accepted on the application. Many of the undergrads at MIT qualified for the AIME. A substantial number qualified for the USAMO or IMO as well - just look at the Putnam results every year. Frankly, in order to stand out among MIT applicants by demonstrating some sort of mathematical ability on these exams, the minimum is probably USAMO qualification (top 270 of ~200k AMC takers). Otherwise it's a nice thing to have but not particularly unique. Even then I know a reasonable number of USAMO qualifiers who have been rejected. Source: was a MIT undergrad < 5 years ago
HarryHirsch 7y ago
It isn't exactly a surprise. Back then, in school, we toured the national synchrotron facility, and the same question came up: if didn't have much physics at school can you still study physics? The answer was: if you study physics they'll teach you physics just fine, where you'll run into trouble is the adjacent subjects, chemistry, biology, computing. You'll need to take care of that yourself.
dbcurtis 7y ago
"And last, but certainly not least: I know we are making this announcement during the COVID-19 pandemic. We had already been planning to make this change, and decided to announce as soon as possible in part because we wanted to make sure no one was spending more time or energy studying for tests they wouldn’t have to take for us, especially during a public health emergency. " Riiiiiiiight. 'Cuz nobody that applies to MIT ever applies to a back-up school. You know, just in case they don't get accepted. I've heard that can happen.
- alexhutcheson 7y ago
  SAT Subject Tests are either optional or not considered at most schools. I personally took a few SAT Subject Tests that were only required for a single school I was applying to.
basementcat 7y ago
Makes sense; doesn't everybody pretty much get perfect scores on these? (at least everyone who is a serious applicant to an institution like MIT) If everyone gets the same (perfect) score then the test doesn't really help the admissions committee select for the best applicants. Tests like AMC 12 may be more useful for this type of purpose.
- applecrazy 7y ago
  Yep. SAT Math II is all but worthless at this point. The middle 50% for top universities ranges from 800-800 (aka the max score).
knzhou 7y ago
Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 official book, which is what I did, and what I still regard as the best option. Even if money helps incrementally for tests, it helps for everything else even more. International volunteer work? An inspiring (i.e. college counselor approved) essay? Recommendation letters from authoritative people? Anything that requires equipment, like computer labs or robotics? It all costs money -- and in many cases literally measures nothing besides how much money you have.
- NeverFade 7y ago
  Agree completely. SAT isn't perfect or perfectly objective. No test is. As long as a test controls admission to a highly desirable school, there will be exorbitantly expensive courses for it. However, it is a far more objective test than the rest of the admission packet, and it's being dropped with no alternative. This will make admissions less fair, precisely because SAT is still a test that you can ace with discipline and hard work without much monetary investment, and it will be replaced by other criteria that actually requires more capital.
  - dwaltrip 7y ago
    To clarify, this announcement is only about the SAT subject tests.
    - NeverFade 7y ago
      For now.
      - brewdad 7y ago
        Given that there may be no SAT or ACT tests administered from March until ????, how will colleges deal with the class of 2021?
shiado 7y ago
"Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes."
awinter-py 7y ago
boolean satisfiability?
sriram_sun 7y ago
> "... for non-native English speakers, we strongly recommend taking the TOEFL if you have been using English for less than 5 years or do not speak English at home or in school..." I hope that TOEFL is offered on a pass/fail criteria. For. e.g. if you score (say) 85% or more, it shouldn't matter if you score 100% for purposes or communication or comprehension.
- thedance 7y ago
  The only criteria for English should be abilities at least as good as the worst teaching assistant in the undergraduate college. This is the lowest possible standard of English language proficiency. """ WHEN Mark W. Eichin showed up for his course in differential equations at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology this year, he found that his instructor was a Hindustani whose spoken English was ''almost incomprehensible.'' Along with most of his classmates, the freshman stopped attending lectures. ''People just got their assignments and left,'' he recalled. """ ^ Consistent with my own undergrad experience.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Wouldn't demanding English language abilities help to reduce instances of this in the future? Like if they're letting students graduate with language deficits then the chance of tutors/teachers/professors having less language ability than desirable would seem to go up?
    - adchari 7y ago
      The University of Illinois requires TOEFL and in person English language interviews before a TA or professor from a foreign country is allowed to teach any section. Students still face similar issues, due to accents and the fact that fluency in a language guarantees that you can convey an idea, not that you can engage listeners and use idioms which translate well.
jimmyvalmer 7y ago
These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints. When I was applying to college, yes, people paid for SAT prep but very few paid for Achievement Test prep, and so Achievement Tests were a superior indicator.
- pulisse 7y ago
  > These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints Difficulty as perceived by test takers is irrelevant. What MIT cares about is how well test performance predicts undergrad performance. As TFA notes, MIT is retaining the standard SAT because their data indicates that performance on that test is predictive.
  - jimmyvalmer 7y ago
    We don't disagree. I remain dubious that excluding a subject test term wouldn't deteriorate MIT's scoring model.
supernova87a 7y ago
If they ever extend this to the SAT / ACT itself (and not just the subject tests) I will have lost a lot of respect for MIT. A goal of higher education is to give the opportunity to people who will likely make the best use of the education, and have the greatest chance of succeeding given their preparation. Spots at top colleges are a limited resource. There has to be a selection function, and an unbiased test that asks questions about math, reading comprehension, etc. is as close as you're going to get. The SAT, regardless of your opinion of whether it exacerbates or merely reflects inequities in the system, is a very strong indicator of whether a person has the preparation to succeed at university. You cannot get around that fact. Whether high-priced prep courses or studying out of a book from the library help you pass the test, the person doing either of those things has gotten education and skills along the way. God forbid you consider the idea that someone actually learned something even though the test was standardized. And the fact that even poor families will pay to put their kids through test prep courses suggests they see value in it. It's not like they're paying to be given instructions on how to cheat the system. People who want to water down the admissions criteria to be a social equalizer ought not mask their motives by saying that the test is flawed. The test is perfectly fine, and it reflects people's preparation and abilities to succeed at university. If you want to change the outcome, change the inputs -- and work on getting more people qualified to pass that test.
chatmasta 7y ago
To be fair, the SAT is pretty useless when you have enough applicants with 99 percentile scores that you can fill your class multiple times over. It was never a differentiator.
larrik 7y ago
Title nitpick, "SAT Subject Tests" is in a specific case in the original title, and the lack of title-case on "Subject Tests" is making it hard to understand the true announcement. IE. SATs are staying, SAT Subject Tests are not.
makstaks 7y ago
To clarify, SATs are still required, subject tests are different. From page: "Will you still require the SAT or the ACT?" "We will continue to require the SAT or the ACT, because..." edited: formatting
noodlesUK 7y ago
Is there some other standardised exam (AP? IB?) that they will be considering instead? I went through a very non-traditional route to university, and standardised exams were an important part of me being able to demonstrate preparedness for university. I hesitate to just go on what grades someone gets at school, as it simply puts them at the mercy of their teachers and administrators, and some people like me didn’t really go to school...
gumby 7y ago
Is SAT prep known to make any difference? Back when I applied to MIT (early 80s) our entire SAT prep was "fill in the circles completely, bring only #2 pencils to the test and if you can't eliminate even one possible answer skip the question." Back then I never heard of anyone using any more advice than just that. A few years ago I bought some SAT prep books for my kid and he never cracked them.
- foreigner 7y ago
  Practice definitely helped me.
vondur 7y ago
Ah man, 20 years too late for me!
cwperkins 7y ago
What about the College boards initiative to consider adversity? Has that initiative gone anywhere or is it dead? I would rather consider adversity of a child's upbringing in context of standardized test results then any immutable traits.
jwilber 7y ago
Another item on the list of recent things MIT has done/participated in to reduce its reputation in favor of pleasing the rich and powerful.
pulisse 7y ago
A number of comments here seem to be confusing SAT subject tests, which are domain-specific tests about subjects like biology, with the "standard" SAT. It's only the former that MIT is dropping from consideration in admissions: > We will continue to require the SAT or the ACT, because our research has shown these tests, in combination with a student’s high school grades and coursework, are predictive of success in our challenging curriculum.
legionof7 7y ago
Slightly unrelated but could be useful to any HS seniors here: My n=1 study method got me a 1520. I would study for the SAT in a dark room, with horror movie music or war sound effects playing in earbuds, while planking. For every incorrect answer, I'd do 10 pushups or 3 pull-ups (can adapt to your own level). Rationale was that if I could do well in the worst conditions possible, then I'd do better sitting in a quiet room. I'm a pretty bad student also, I had like a 3 GPA.
forkexec 7y ago
I'm glad I didn't study at all or have any coaching for the 1600 pt SAT I in the mid 90's because it would've been entirely unnecessary. I missed one question on the math section and it was a dumb mistake on my part. Our school's graduating class alone had over a dozen perfect SATs, multiple full rides to Harvard/MIT/Stanford and around 70 over 1500. ~97% had test prep. Now go to India, take the JEE and find out how fun testing can be because the SAT is not much harder than a driving test. :) (Emphasis on the JEE being a much better measure because it's more difficult and more voluminous so that it would make Einstein feel insecure and inadequate.)
deleted 7y ago
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grantsch 7y ago
Nearly none of the comments are really about what they're eliminating: SAT subject tests (NOT the SAT!) The main SAT is basically a basic skills and IQ test while the SUBJECT tests are almost entirely about preparation, making them much easier to game/prepare for. Source: I tutored the SAT and subject tests.
httpz 7y ago
To clarify, SAT subject tests are the ones like physics, chemistry, Spanish, etc. Not the main verbal and math portion. For students smart enough to get into MIT, the subject tests are way too easy. Most students applying to MIT probably have near perfect score already, so for MIT it's probably not a useful indicator.
ismail-khan 7y ago
What’s the point of the subject tests anyway when you already have AP exams? It was pointless for me to do both in high school, the subject tests were much easier.
totalZero 7y ago
This is a bad decision. Subject tests helped me get into MIT from a public school in one of the states in the bottom 5 for education spending. Take away the tests, and you take away the merit.
better0uts1d3 7y ago
Sometimes, there's good news from coronavirus
cosmotic 7y ago
The post is a little misleading. MIT will still require SAT or ACT, just not the subject tests.
- bryanhpchiang 7y ago
  That's exactly what the headline says.
  - kart23 7y ago
    So you still have to submit it, but they won't consider it? I'm confused.
Koshkin 7y ago
I wonder if this has something to do with the pandemic.
abhisuri97 7y ago
Honestly welcome change. The SAT Subject tests (at least for people around me in HS) were always considered as a much easier test you'd take after the AP for that very same subject. I just equated it to another way for collegeboard to get money especially since the questions were way more straightforward than AP. I am slightly concerned about what this means for schools where AP classes are not offered (I imagine SAT Subject tests presented the most accessible opportunity for these students to demonstrate their aptitude in a subject). EDIT: changed wording in response to child comment.
- mattmcknight 7y ago
  You can take the AP test without taking an AP course.
  - abhisuri97 7y ago
    Yep! But there are a few more barriers in the way if your school does not offer AP courses (you'd need to find neighboring schools that do allow it and talk to the AP coordinator at that school). For subject tests, there are pretty minimal barriers associated with signing up. You just register as you normally would for an SAT exam IIRC.
xibalba 7y ago
The majority of comments in this thread are an abject demonstration of a failure in reading comprehension. If only we had a test for that...
deleted 7y ago
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crazygringo 7y ago
Oh... this actually makes sense. MIT is still accepting the main SAT test and AP tests. SAT subject tests were always a weird thing in the middle. AP tests cover the same goal, but with more rigor and differentiation. (I remember taking the SAT subject tests just to "cover my bases", because they were there, not because there seemed to be any real reason.) Also -- remember, even if your high school doesn't offer AP courses, you can still study for and take the AP tests on your own.
throwawaysea 7y ago
I am always wary of universities removing testing requirements as they are usually motivated by activist pressure (vilifying meritocracy and pushing for equity, AKA equality of outcomes) rather than evaluating for the best talent more precisely. Anyone know more about what the story is behind this one?
codelord 7y ago
In my home country Iran we had the equivalent of SAT general and subject tests. I did pretty poorly in general tests, but the subject tests saved me (near perfect scores in physics and math) and opened the door for me to go to a good university in my country. Just to get a clear understanding of my financials, I was living off 1$ per month at that time which was just enough to buy heavily subsidized food stamps in college. I ended up graduating with a PhD degree and worked at several top companies in the US later. This seems to me like a case of a cure that is worse than the disease.
0xff00ffee 7y ago
34 years too goddamn late for me. Yes I'm still angry I didn't get in, because my SATs sucked. Now I run a software company. EAT IT MIT! :)
johnmarcus 7y ago
>For all applicants: We require the SAT or the ACT. We do not require the ACT writing section or the SAT optional essay. > we still require the score because it is predictive in conjunction with other acedemic factors So.....basically nothing has changed and the headline is extremely misleading. Edit: so apparently this applies to the "subject" tests. I never took those and didn't know they were a thing, now I do.
chad_strategic 7y ago
I'm sure that I will get in trouble for this but... The SAT/ACT system is corrupt. It's plain an simple. Follow the money. It's as simple as that. The root of most issues involve simple economics. (Maybe a little broad of a statement, so take it with a grain of salt, but certainly applies in this case.) The tests are built on revenue from the taking the tests and industry selling you prep material. I don't have time to find the article but the SAT organization got busted a while back for charging different prices for different zip codes. Although I can't prove it, but I'm sure there were kickback for universities that used the tests. It's a little unsubstantiated claim but we already know you can bribe your way into to school. (The Rick Singer debacle) Why wouldn't these "Testing" companies be doing the same. Memorizing a method/strategy to take test is a waste of time and national resources.
- totalZero 7y ago
  How can you be sure of something that you cannot prove?
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    Provable is a tiny subset of true. Much truth is accessible just by looking.
    - totalZero 7y ago
      "Unprovable but true" has often turned out to be "false," if we look to history. This is the reason that scientific epistemology is reliant on empiricism.
  - chad_strategic 7y ago
    I said I couldn't prove it. If I was an investigative journalist and or I had significant amount of time, then I would look into it.
    - totalZero 7y ago
      "...I can't prove it, but I'm sure..." You said you can't prove it AND that you're sure. This is not a good way to think. In the words of Mark Twain, “It’s not what we don’t know that gets us in trouble. It’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so.”
zaptheimpaler 7y ago
A comment section of people who didn't read the article lol. They explicitly said they consider SAT to be a predictive metric of success at MIT. This is not critical of SAT, only SAT subject tests. While they weren't explicit about why SAT subject tests won't be accepted, this may be a clue: > No: in fairness to all applicants, we won’t consider them for anyone. We think it would be unfair to consider scores only from those who have scored well and therefore choose to send them to us. Seems reasonable to expect tests which are optional to suffer from heavy selection bias as they described. I'd expect optional tests to also skew towards the rich because there is a cost to each test.
- adchari 7y ago
  Cost for tests can be waived using exam vouchers, even for the subject tests. I think the actual factor would be preparation time/cost of other resources, which can be either really small or thousands of dollars for a test prep course.
pelasaco 7y ago
The only question that now matters: Do you like Trump? if yes, you are out.
kccqzy 7y ago
The SAT subject tests just felt like a joke to me anyways. My high school was a public high school in Singapore, a country generally considered to have great education. With a generally good mastery of the normal high school curriculum, these tests were considered very easy. Pretty much all my friends and I got 800 out of 800 for all the subject tests. And these perfect scores ended up not mattering that much in college admissions anyways. The normal SAT I tests, on the other hand, seemed to require more critical thinking, higher reading comprehension and reasoning skills, skills that are sorely needed in an age of blatant misinformation. These are much harder to score well, which is why so many people spend a lot studying for them. Not so much for the SAT subject tests.
- MiroF 7y ago
  It depends heavily on the SAT subject test. Math II, for instance, is heavily curved and anyone with a solid understanding of high school math and their calculator should have no problem getting an 800. But I'm not sure if the same is true for all of the tests in the humanities and social sciences.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
Everyone here claiming that SATs aren't fair don't seem to realize that SATs are the most fair and most objective criteria in college admissions. It's not perfect but it's the best and only objective measure we have. GPA is far worse than SATs because not only are each high schools grading standards different, each teacher's grading policy is different. There are plenty of dumb 4.0s out there but there aren't that many dumb 1600s. Extra-curricular is more unfair than SATs because you generally need time and money and parental involvement for rowing classes. Interviews are worse because it's a lot more about how the interviewer likes and relates to you. Of course the most unfair part is legacy admissions which nobody wants to get rid of. Sure, SATs aren't perfect, but it is the best and most objective measure we have. It's actually the only tool we have to objectively measure and expose racial discrimination in admissions policy. Now, people are fighting against SATs. The only reason I can come up with is that these universities want to participate in racial discrimination. SATs, GPAs, Extra-curriculur, interview, etc should all be part of a student's portfolio for admissions. That universities want to remove the ONLY, though not perfect, objective measure is worrisome.
jkaptur 7y ago
These are the tests that are no longer being considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests. They are not "the SAT". It makes intuitive sense to me that MIT wouldn't find these useful. They test subjects that students study in school. They're tests of knowledge, and have multiple choice questions like "One purpose of the Marshall Plan of 1948 was to..." As far as I know, everyone's score on these tests correlated extremely well with 1) their school grade in the relevant course 2) the relevant Advanced Placement test.
luord 7y ago
I'm sure this is for the sake of "diversity" yet this only harms those kids who can't do any extracurricular activities or similar and had to rely on standardized tests to have a chance. I should know, I was one of them. So this can only backfire (if the goal really is to get more people from different backgrounds in), as these initiatives always do.
chottocharaii 7y ago
I took the SAT from Australia and was blown away by how ridiculously easy it was. Maybe it’d be a better predictor of ability if they made it a bit harder.
- MiroF 7y ago
  What's easy for you is not easy for everyone. It currently is a pretty good predictor of ability in college.
kovac 7y ago
I did poorly for SAT general ability test. But was at the top most percentile (I can't remember the exact number here, long time back) in the subject tests (I think I took Math and Physics). I wonder how that happened if both tests predict performance equally well.
djohnston 7y ago
Wow I totally forgot about these. I can't even remember which one's I took!
farrarstan 7y ago
Itt: hackernews.txt
joshvm 7y ago
Oxford also tried something similar by implementing their own entrance tests for engineering and physics (and other subjects). The idea was to stop private school kids with straight A GCSEs and A-levels from dominating. The entrance tests are supposed to be harder to prepare for, and therefore fairer - all that did was force the rich kids to get tutors and the situation remains largely the same. One of the main reasons I didn't apply to the US for grad school is having to sit through the GRE (which I had no time to prepare for during my final year) and then to redo all my Masters courses because the US doesn't recognise foreign qualifications. Virtually anywhere else in the world you can convert your grades to local standard, and a masters is a masters. At grad level an interview is much more useful to gauge ability, as grades are a poor predictor of research output.
LatteLazy 7y ago
When I was at university, the head of admissions position at the school of physics was forced on someone who didn't want it. So he used it as an opportunity for an experiment. He offered a place to everyone who applied. People with low grades, people without the maths prerequisite, anyone really. Our intake swelled from about 60 students to almost 100. The ones without maths really struggled. Many dropped out. But to him that was the whole point: if you're smart/hungry/hardworking enough to pass you'd pass. If you weren't, you'd drop out or fail. Either way, why should he try to "pick winners"? This way winners without math prereq (or whatever) still hey a chance. That changed the way I thought about admissions as 2 of the extra 30 got a degree they never gave had a chance at otherwise.
mac01021 7y ago
What fraction of applicants were taking the subject tests in the first place?
jacobmiske 7y ago
I am a class of 2020 MIT student. Taking these tests was sort of awkward in my case. My high school allowed me to take the ACT once for free. I did not have to take SAT Subject Tests for any of my other college applications. I am happy with Stu's decision here. I can speak more on my experience if people would like me to do so.
pcvarmint 7y ago
It was over 35 years ago, so it has absolutely no influence on me anymore, but I achieved a perfect 800 on the SAT math achievement test, along with a 5 on the Calculus BC. But on the regular SAT, I only achieved around 1300 total, and the math part was somewhere between 780-800 (did I have a bad day?). I never completed college, but I have been successful nonetheless. I think that there is more to one's ability than simply achievement test scores, grade point averages, or college degrees.

427 points by s3r3nity 7y ago

So they will consider what ? Recommendation letters ? Maybe they dont realise that people from disadvantaged groups dont really have the luxury to volunteer at one of those fancy NGOs. Standardized tests are actually except for the super expensive textbooks in the US. If these books for basic education could somehow be made free but oh wait - socialism.

gwbas1c 7y ago
> So they will consider what? They explain it very clearly: The SAT or ACT, and high school grades. They are just skipping the subject tests, because they don't think they are useful. The subject tests are the optional tests that students can take in addition to the normal SAT.

thatiscool 7y ago

I can project the going south of MIT.

Koshkin 7y ago
BU?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hhs 7y ago

Earlier this year, Caltech made the decision to eliminate the SAT subject tests: https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/caltech-eliminate-requirement-sat-subject-test-scores-admissions https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/caltech-eliminate-require...

codingslave 7y ago

Most of this is to obscure their admission criteria. Harvard has come under fire for actively discriminating against Asian applicants. By removing a standard test, these colleges can actively discriminate whilst making it more difficult to prove admissions bias from a numerical and arguably more objective standard.

krastanov 7y ago
They are removing the extra optional tests, not the main SAT test. Sounds great to me, as these extra tests just show you have the money to take them. Your comment is an unfounded opinion, please do not present it with the certainty of a fact.
- lainga 7y ago
  The first sentence of GP was, but the second statement was fact, and the third a description of a plausible possibility.
- metalforever 7y ago
  Low income students get a fee waiver
- gnicholas 7y ago
  The SAT IIs are not extra/optional if you're applying to most selective colleges/universities. They aren't the main SAT, but they are far from optional for students who would be considering MIT.
tryptophan 7y ago
See also the recent restructuring of the SAT, which changed the scoring so more people have perfect/high scores. Harvard et al can now pick from a wider pool and still claim they have the "best and brightest".
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
There's been a similar debate over subject GREs in my field. The argument has been made that subject GREs are racist/sexist, because of the differing distributions of test scores in different demographic groups. There is a strong social pressure to accept this argument, despite its obvious absurdity, leading most people in the field to do so (and if they disagreed, they probably wouldn't tell you). The problem is that graduate school admissions committees are left with very few quantitative measures. Undergrad grades are difficult to compare, because every university grades differently, and applicants come from different countries with completely different grading scales. So many people score perfectly on the quantitative GRE that it's nearly useless. The verbal GRE seems irrelevant to a scientific field, and it seems pointless to rule out international applicants because they don't know the meaning of the word "garrulous." In short, the subject GRE was one of the only uniform quantitative measures available to admissions committees, and now it's considered "racist." There upshot, ironically, is that the elimination of quantitative measures makes discrimination easier to hide. This discrimination is meant to be positive, helping increase representation of underrepresented groups. The applicants who suffer most from this policy are those who are just on the line between admission and rejection, and who don't come from the "correct" demographic. The people pushing these policies think they're changing the world for the better, but it sure looks unfair to the individuals they're denying entry to. Applicants are being treated as representatives of their race or gender, rather than as individuals who should be considered individually.

yardie 7y ago

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting students much richer than I who had multi year SAT prep courses with actual exam questions!

duckMuppet 7y ago
Anyone can study the SAT prep books for free at a bookstore a few hours at a time daily. If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. One can self-study the SAT prep book or self-study their biology book and in both cases can potentially be more knowledgeable than those who attended a formal university class or prep workshop. Most students aren't driven to do that though. This goes to the fundamental problem, that our university system at present is really just a credentialing and signaling system.
- nicoburns 7y ago
  > If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. Yes, this another big problem caused by (too much emphasis on) standardised testing. I learnt the most in classes that didn't do this. But people do better on tests when they do do this. Standardised tests are destroying our education system.
  - naniwaduni 7y ago
    Goodhart's law in action!
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    Surely the standardization matters? Teaching to an aptitude test is clearly counterproductive (and ditto tricks for hacking the test--like just testing each multiple choice answer instead of solving an equation). On the other hand. the AP classes I took in high school (admittedly, a long time ago) seemed pretty reasonable. Perhaps you could quibble with how the syllabus weighted various subjects, or the (mercifully few) classes on how structure exam answers. Overall though, I felt like I got a decent education in Spanish/History/Physics/etc from those courses.

jimbob45 7y ago

Note to those who haven't been in high school for some time: these aren't the main test. The main test still gets considered (in addition to your parents' money) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests

rickwierenga 7y ago
> (in addition to your parents' money) That is not true. MIT is need blind which means it doesn't consider financial needs [1]. [1] https://mitadmissions.org/afford/cost-aid-basics/access-affordability/ https://mitadmissions.org/afford/cost-aid-basics/access-affo...
- thedance 7y ago
  "As for the children of prominent campus donors, [former MIT director of undergraduate admissions] Crowley said a college's development office might reach out to the dean of admissions to say, "Hey, just so you know, Lisa's dad has been very generous to us in the past, or something."
  - hksh 7y ago
    Since one isn't provided this is the top google result containing the quote [1]. The context of the linked article is that Crowley now works for an admission prep company IvyWise and this quote may not directly reference MIT but his broader experience in this more recent role. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-scandal-two-ex-admissions-officers-explain-behind-scenes-n983796 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-scanda...

Dalrymple 7y ago

This is indeed a strange decision for MIT. The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. While there are reports of people raising their scores artificially on the non-subject tests by hundreds of points through these short-term methods, the subjects tests have long had a reputation as being more representative of what you really know.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
> The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. Who cares what the conventional wisdom says? The psychometric results are that SAT I scores and SAT II scores predict performance about equally well in isolation and don't have more predictive value in combination than they do in isolation. In other words, they measure exactly the same thing. (Contrast the other major predictor, high school GPA, where the predictive value of considering GPA + SAT in combination somewhat exceeds the predictive value of either metric individually.)
- posterboy 7y ago
  There is another implication as a consequence of the statement "the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests." That is, I first read thag the students don't suffer under these conditions. It is a valuable trait no doubt, to be able to cram swaths of loosely associated facts. I'd argue that it's a vital trade for study, but perhaps it is less severe than only twenty years ago, because very powerful memory aids have become ubiquitious. > predict performance about equally well having no tires or no engine predicts performance of a car--or rather the lack thereof--equally well. Yet grip and horsepower are independent variables. I think that means SAT scores don't predict success too well at all beyond a certain threshold. Having the right motivation (haha, a pun) for a certain disciplin might make a huge difference. So you can test e.g. vocabulary learning in general, or top9cal knowledge, which requires precise choices of vocabulary nonetheless, but one not found in a general dictionary. It's more like knowing which dictionaries exist, and what texts are referenced therein.

hnburnsy 7y ago

Does MIT ask for AMC/AIME scores which are miles above the SAT Math Subject tests?

whymauri 7y ago
Yes. But it is optional.
chapplap 7y ago
Yes, they are accepted on the application. Many of the undergrads at MIT qualified for the AIME. A substantial number qualified for the USAMO or IMO as well - just look at the Putnam results every year. Frankly, in order to stand out among MIT applicants by demonstrating some sort of mathematical ability on these exams, the minimum is probably USAMO qualification (top 270 of ~200k AMC takers). Otherwise it's a nice thing to have but not particularly unique. Even then I know a reasonable number of USAMO qualifiers who have been rejected. Source: was a MIT undergrad < 5 years ago

HarryHirsch 7y ago

It isn't exactly a surprise. Back then, in school, we toured the national synchrotron facility, and the same question came up: if didn't have much physics at school can you still study physics? The answer was: if you study physics they'll teach you physics just fine, where you'll run into trouble is the adjacent subjects, chemistry, biology, computing. You'll need to take care of that yourself.

dbcurtis 7y ago

"And last, but certainly not least: I know we are making this announcement during the COVID-19 pandemic. We had already been planning to make this change, and decided to announce as soon as possible in part because we wanted to make sure no one was spending more time or energy studying for tests they wouldn’t have to take for us, especially during a public health emergency. " Riiiiiiiight. 'Cuz nobody that applies to MIT ever applies to a back-up school. You know, just in case they don't get accepted. I've heard that can happen.

alexhutcheson 7y ago
SAT Subject Tests are either optional or not considered at most schools. I personally took a few SAT Subject Tests that were only required for a single school I was applying to.

basementcat 7y ago

Makes sense; doesn't everybody pretty much get perfect scores on these? (at least everyone who is a serious applicant to an institution like MIT) If everyone gets the same (perfect) score then the test doesn't really help the admissions committee select for the best applicants. Tests like AMC 12 may be more useful for this type of purpose.

applecrazy 7y ago
Yep. SAT Math II is all but worthless at this point. The middle 50% for top universities ranges from 800-800 (aka the max score).

knzhou 7y ago

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 official book, which is what I did, and what I still regard as the best option. Even if money helps incrementally for tests, it helps for everything else even more. International volunteer work? An inspiring (i.e. college counselor approved) essay? Recommendation letters from authoritative people? Anything that requires equipment, like computer labs or robotics? It all costs money -- and in many cases literally measures nothing besides how much money you have.

NeverFade 7y ago
Agree completely. SAT isn't perfect or perfectly objective. No test is. As long as a test controls admission to a highly desirable school, there will be exorbitantly expensive courses for it. However, it is a far more objective test than the rest of the admission packet, and it's being dropped with no alternative. This will make admissions less fair, precisely because SAT is still a test that you can ace with discipline and hard work without much monetary investment, and it will be replaced by other criteria that actually requires more capital.
- dwaltrip 7y ago
  To clarify, this announcement is only about the SAT subject tests.
  - NeverFade 7y ago
    For now.
    - brewdad 7y ago
      Given that there may be no SAT or ACT tests administered from March until ????, how will colleges deal with the class of 2021?

shiado 7y ago

"Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes."

awinter-py 7y ago

boolean satisfiability?

sriram_sun 7y ago

> "... for non-native English speakers, we strongly recommend taking the TOEFL if you have been using English for less than 5 years or do not speak English at home or in school..." I hope that TOEFL is offered on a pass/fail criteria. For. e.g. if you score (say) 85% or more, it shouldn't matter if you score 100% for purposes or communication or comprehension.

thedance 7y ago
The only criteria for English should be abilities at least as good as the worst teaching assistant in the undergraduate college. This is the lowest possible standard of English language proficiency. """ WHEN Mark W. Eichin showed up for his course in differential equations at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology this year, he found that his instructor was a Hindustani whose spoken English was ''almost incomprehensible.'' Along with most of his classmates, the freshman stopped attending lectures. ''People just got their assignments and left,'' he recalled. """ ^ Consistent with my own undergrad experience.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Wouldn't demanding English language abilities help to reduce instances of this in the future? Like if they're letting students graduate with language deficits then the chance of tutors/teachers/professors having less language ability than desirable would seem to go up?
  - adchari 7y ago
    The University of Illinois requires TOEFL and in person English language interviews before a TA or professor from a foreign country is allowed to teach any section. Students still face similar issues, due to accents and the fact that fluency in a language guarantees that you can convey an idea, not that you can engage listeners and use idioms which translate well.

jimmyvalmer 7y ago

These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints. When I was applying to college, yes, people paid for SAT prep but very few paid for Achievement Test prep, and so Achievement Tests were a superior indicator.

pulisse 7y ago
> These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints Difficulty as perceived by test takers is irrelevant. What MIT cares about is how well test performance predicts undergrad performance. As TFA notes, MIT is retaining the standard SAT because their data indicates that performance on that test is predictive.
- jimmyvalmer 7y ago
  We don't disagree. I remain dubious that excluding a subject test term wouldn't deteriorate MIT's scoring model.

supernova87a 7y ago

If they ever extend this to the SAT / ACT itself (and not just the subject tests) I will have lost a lot of respect for MIT. A goal of higher education is to give the opportunity to people who will likely make the best use of the education, and have the greatest chance of succeeding given their preparation. Spots at top colleges are a limited resource. There has to be a selection function, and an unbiased test that asks questions about math, reading comprehension, etc. is as close as you're going to get. The SAT, regardless of your opinion of whether it exacerbates or merely reflects inequities in the system, is a very strong indicator of whether a person has the preparation to succeed at university. You cannot get around that fact. Whether high-priced prep courses or studying out of a book from the library help you pass the test, the person doing either of those things has gotten education and skills along the way. God forbid you consider the idea that someone actually learned something even though the test was standardized. And the fact that even poor families will pay to put their kids through test prep courses suggests they see value in it. It's not like they're paying to be given instructions on how to cheat the system. People who want to water down the admissions criteria to be a social equalizer ought not mask their motives by saying that the test is flawed. The test is perfectly fine, and it reflects people's preparation and abilities to succeed at university. If you want to change the outcome, change the inputs -- and work on getting more people qualified to pass that test.

chatmasta 7y ago

To be fair, the SAT is pretty useless when you have enough applicants with 99 percentile scores that you can fill your class multiple times over. It was never a differentiator.

larrik 7y ago

Title nitpick, "SAT Subject Tests" is in a specific case in the original title, and the lack of title-case on "Subject Tests" is making it hard to understand the true announcement. IE. SATs are staying, SAT Subject Tests are not.

makstaks 7y ago

To clarify, SATs are still required, subject tests are different. From page: "Will you still require the SAT or the ACT?" "We will continue to require the SAT or the ACT, because..." edited: formatting

noodlesUK 7y ago

Is there some other standardised exam (AP? IB?) that they will be considering instead? I went through a very non-traditional route to university, and standardised exams were an important part of me being able to demonstrate preparedness for university. I hesitate to just go on what grades someone gets at school, as it simply puts them at the mercy of their teachers and administrators, and some people like me didn’t really go to school...

gumby 7y ago

Is SAT prep known to make any difference? Back when I applied to MIT (early 80s) our entire SAT prep was "fill in the circles completely, bring only #2 pencils to the test and if you can't eliminate even one possible answer skip the question." Back then I never heard of anyone using any more advice than just that. A few years ago I bought some SAT prep books for my kid and he never cracked them.

foreigner 7y ago
Practice definitely helped me.

vondur 7y ago

Ah man, 20 years too late for me!

cwperkins 7y ago

What about the College boards initiative to consider adversity? Has that initiative gone anywhere or is it dead? I would rather consider adversity of a child's upbringing in context of standardized test results then any immutable traits.

jwilber 7y ago

Another item on the list of recent things MIT has done/participated in to reduce its reputation in favor of pleasing the rich and powerful.

pulisse 7y ago

A number of comments here seem to be confusing SAT subject tests, which are domain-specific tests about subjects like biology, with the "standard" SAT. It's only the former that MIT is dropping from consideration in admissions: > We will continue to require the SAT or the ACT, because our research has shown these tests, in combination with a student’s high school grades and coursework, are predictive of success in our challenging curriculum.

legionof7 7y ago

Slightly unrelated but could be useful to any HS seniors here: My n=1 study method got me a 1520. I would study for the SAT in a dark room, with horror movie music or war sound effects playing in earbuds, while planking. For every incorrect answer, I'd do 10 pushups or 3 pull-ups (can adapt to your own level). Rationale was that if I could do well in the worst conditions possible, then I'd do better sitting in a quiet room. I'm a pretty bad student also, I had like a 3 GPA.

forkexec 7y ago

I'm glad I didn't study at all or have any coaching for the 1600 pt SAT I in the mid 90's because it would've been entirely unnecessary. I missed one question on the math section and it was a dumb mistake on my part. Our school's graduating class alone had over a dozen perfect SATs, multiple full rides to Harvard/MIT/Stanford and around 70 over 1500. ~97% had test prep. Now go to India, take the JEE and find out how fun testing can be because the SAT is not much harder than a driving test. :) (Emphasis on the JEE being a much better measure because it's more difficult and more voluminous so that it would make Einstein feel insecure and inadequate.)

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

grantsch 7y ago

Nearly none of the comments are really about what they're eliminating: SAT subject tests (NOT the SAT!) The main SAT is basically a basic skills and IQ test while the SUBJECT tests are almost entirely about preparation, making them much easier to game/prepare for. Source: I tutored the SAT and subject tests.

httpz 7y ago

To clarify, SAT subject tests are the ones like physics, chemistry, Spanish, etc. Not the main verbal and math portion. For students smart enough to get into MIT, the subject tests are way too easy. Most students applying to MIT probably have near perfect score already, so for MIT it's probably not a useful indicator.

ismail-khan 7y ago

What’s the point of the subject tests anyway when you already have AP exams? It was pointless for me to do both in high school, the subject tests were much easier.

totalZero 7y ago

This is a bad decision. Subject tests helped me get into MIT from a public school in one of the states in the bottom 5 for education spending. Take away the tests, and you take away the merit.

better0uts1d3 7y ago

Sometimes, there's good news from coronavirus

cosmotic 7y ago

The post is a little misleading. MIT will still require SAT or ACT, just not the subject tests.

bryanhpchiang 7y ago
That's exactly what the headline says.
- kart23 7y ago
  So you still have to submit it, but they won't consider it? I'm confused.

Koshkin 7y ago

I wonder if this has something to do with the pandemic.

abhisuri97 7y ago

Honestly welcome change. The SAT Subject tests (at least for people around me in HS) were always considered as a much easier test you'd take after the AP for that very same subject. I just equated it to another way for collegeboard to get money especially since the questions were way more straightforward than AP. I am slightly concerned about what this means for schools where AP classes are not offered (I imagine SAT Subject tests presented the most accessible opportunity for these students to demonstrate their aptitude in a subject). EDIT: changed wording in response to child comment.

mattmcknight 7y ago
You can take the AP test without taking an AP course.
- abhisuri97 7y ago
  Yep! But there are a few more barriers in the way if your school does not offer AP courses (you'd need to find neighboring schools that do allow it and talk to the AP coordinator at that school). For subject tests, there are pretty minimal barriers associated with signing up. You just register as you normally would for an SAT exam IIRC.

xibalba 7y ago

The majority of comments in this thread are an abject demonstration of a failure in reading comprehension. If only we had a test for that...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

crazygringo 7y ago

Oh... this actually makes sense. MIT is still accepting the main SAT test and AP tests. SAT subject tests were always a weird thing in the middle. AP tests cover the same goal, but with more rigor and differentiation. (I remember taking the SAT subject tests just to "cover my bases", because they were there, not because there seemed to be any real reason.) Also -- remember, even if your high school doesn't offer AP courses, you can still study for and take the AP tests on your own.

throwawaysea 7y ago

I am always wary of universities removing testing requirements as they are usually motivated by activist pressure (vilifying meritocracy and pushing for equity, AKA equality of outcomes) rather than evaluating for the best talent more precisely. Anyone know more about what the story is behind this one?

codelord 7y ago

In my home country Iran we had the equivalent of SAT general and subject tests. I did pretty poorly in general tests, but the subject tests saved me (near perfect scores in physics and math) and opened the door for me to go to a good university in my country. Just to get a clear understanding of my financials, I was living off 1$ per month at that time which was just enough to buy heavily subsidized food stamps in college. I ended up graduating with a PhD degree and worked at several top companies in the US later. This seems to me like a case of a cure that is worse than the disease.

0xff00ffee 7y ago

34 years too goddamn late for me. Yes I'm still angry I didn't get in, because my SATs sucked. Now I run a software company. EAT IT MIT! :)

johnmarcus 7y ago

>For all applicants: We require the SAT or the ACT. We do not require the ACT writing section or the SAT optional essay. > we still require the score because it is predictive in conjunction with other acedemic factors So.....basically nothing has changed and the headline is extremely misleading. Edit: so apparently this applies to the "subject" tests. I never took those and didn't know they were a thing, now I do.

chad_strategic 7y ago

I'm sure that I will get in trouble for this but... The SAT/ACT system is corrupt. It's plain an simple. Follow the money. It's as simple as that. The root of most issues involve simple economics. (Maybe a little broad of a statement, so take it with a grain of salt, but certainly applies in this case.) The tests are built on revenue from the taking the tests and industry selling you prep material. I don't have time to find the article but the SAT organization got busted a while back for charging different prices for different zip codes. Although I can't prove it, but I'm sure there were kickback for universities that used the tests. It's a little unsubstantiated claim but we already know you can bribe your way into to school. (The Rick Singer debacle) Why wouldn't these "Testing" companies be doing the same. Memorizing a method/strategy to take test is a waste of time and national resources.

totalZero 7y ago
How can you be sure of something that you cannot prove?
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  Provable is a tiny subset of true. Much truth is accessible just by looking.
  - totalZero 7y ago
    "Unprovable but true" has often turned out to be "false," if we look to history. This is the reason that scientific epistemology is reliant on empiricism.
- chad_strategic 7y ago
  I said I couldn't prove it. If I was an investigative journalist and or I had significant amount of time, then I would look into it.
  - totalZero 7y ago
    "...I can't prove it, but I'm sure..." You said you can't prove it AND that you're sure. This is not a good way to think. In the words of Mark Twain, “It’s not what we don’t know that gets us in trouble. It’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so.”

zaptheimpaler 7y ago

A comment section of people who didn't read the article lol. They explicitly said they consider SAT to be a predictive metric of success at MIT. This is not critical of SAT, only SAT subject tests. While they weren't explicit about why SAT subject tests won't be accepted, this may be a clue: > No: in fairness to all applicants, we won’t consider them for anyone. We think it would be unfair to consider scores only from those who have scored well and therefore choose to send them to us. Seems reasonable to expect tests which are optional to suffer from heavy selection bias as they described. I'd expect optional tests to also skew towards the rich because there is a cost to each test.

adchari 7y ago
Cost for tests can be waived using exam vouchers, even for the subject tests. I think the actual factor would be preparation time/cost of other resources, which can be either really small or thousands of dollars for a test prep course.

pelasaco 7y ago

The only question that now matters: Do you like Trump? if yes, you are out.

kccqzy 7y ago

The SAT subject tests just felt like a joke to me anyways. My high school was a public high school in Singapore, a country generally considered to have great education. With a generally good mastery of the normal high school curriculum, these tests were considered very easy. Pretty much all my friends and I got 800 out of 800 for all the subject tests. And these perfect scores ended up not mattering that much in college admissions anyways. The normal SAT I tests, on the other hand, seemed to require more critical thinking, higher reading comprehension and reasoning skills, skills that are sorely needed in an age of blatant misinformation. These are much harder to score well, which is why so many people spend a lot studying for them. Not so much for the SAT subject tests.

MiroF 7y ago
It depends heavily on the SAT subject test. Math II, for instance, is heavily curved and anyone with a solid understanding of high school math and their calculator should have no problem getting an 800. But I'm not sure if the same is true for all of the tests in the humanities and social sciences.

dntbnmpls 7y ago

Everyone here claiming that SATs aren't fair don't seem to realize that SATs are the most fair and most objective criteria in college admissions. It's not perfect but it's the best and only objective measure we have. GPA is far worse than SATs because not only are each high schools grading standards different, each teacher's grading policy is different. There are plenty of dumb 4.0s out there but there aren't that many dumb 1600s. Extra-curricular is more unfair than SATs because you generally need time and money and parental involvement for rowing classes. Interviews are worse because it's a lot more about how the interviewer likes and relates to you. Of course the most unfair part is legacy admissions which nobody wants to get rid of. Sure, SATs aren't perfect, but it is the best and most objective measure we have. It's actually the only tool we have to objectively measure and expose racial discrimination in admissions policy. Now, people are fighting against SATs. The only reason I can come up with is that these universities want to participate in racial discrimination. SATs, GPAs, Extra-curriculur, interview, etc should all be part of a student's portfolio for admissions. That universities want to remove the ONLY, though not perfect, objective measure is worrisome.

jkaptur 7y ago

These are the tests that are no longer being considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests. They are not "the SAT". It makes intuitive sense to me that MIT wouldn't find these useful. They test subjects that students study in school. They're tests of knowledge, and have multiple choice questions like "One purpose of the Marshall Plan of 1948 was to..." As far as I know, everyone's score on these tests correlated extremely well with 1) their school grade in the relevant course 2) the relevant Advanced Placement test.

luord 7y ago

I'm sure this is for the sake of "diversity" yet this only harms those kids who can't do any extracurricular activities or similar and had to rely on standardized tests to have a chance. I should know, I was one of them. So this can only backfire (if the goal really is to get more people from different backgrounds in), as these initiatives always do.

chottocharaii 7y ago

I took the SAT from Australia and was blown away by how ridiculously easy it was. Maybe it’d be a better predictor of ability if they made it a bit harder.

MiroF 7y ago
What's easy for you is not easy for everyone. It currently is a pretty good predictor of ability in college.

kovac 7y ago

I did poorly for SAT general ability test. But was at the top most percentile (I can't remember the exact number here, long time back) in the subject tests (I think I took Math and Physics). I wonder how that happened if both tests predict performance equally well.

djohnston 7y ago

Wow I totally forgot about these. I can't even remember which one's I took!

farrarstan 7y ago

Itt: hackernews.txt

joshvm 7y ago

Oxford also tried something similar by implementing their own entrance tests for engineering and physics (and other subjects). The idea was to stop private school kids with straight A GCSEs and A-levels from dominating. The entrance tests are supposed to be harder to prepare for, and therefore fairer - all that did was force the rich kids to get tutors and the situation remains largely the same. One of the main reasons I didn't apply to the US for grad school is having to sit through the GRE (which I had no time to prepare for during my final year) and then to redo all my Masters courses because the US doesn't recognise foreign qualifications. Virtually anywhere else in the world you can convert your grades to local standard, and a masters is a masters. At grad level an interview is much more useful to gauge ability, as grades are a poor predictor of research output.

LatteLazy 7y ago

When I was at university, the head of admissions position at the school of physics was forced on someone who didn't want it. So he used it as an opportunity for an experiment. He offered a place to everyone who applied. People with low grades, people without the maths prerequisite, anyone really. Our intake swelled from about 60 students to almost 100. The ones without maths really struggled. Many dropped out. But to him that was the whole point: if you're smart/hungry/hardworking enough to pass you'd pass. If you weren't, you'd drop out or fail. Either way, why should he try to "pick winners"? This way winners without math prereq (or whatever) still hey a chance. That changed the way I thought about admissions as 2 of the extra 30 got a degree they never gave had a chance at otherwise.

mac01021 7y ago

What fraction of applicants were taking the subject tests in the first place?

jacobmiske 7y ago

I am a class of 2020 MIT student. Taking these tests was sort of awkward in my case. My high school allowed me to take the ACT once for free. I did not have to take SAT Subject Tests for any of my other college applications. I am happy with Stu's decision here. I can speak more on my experience if people would like me to do so.

pcvarmint 7y ago

It was over 35 years ago, so it has absolutely no influence on me anymore, but I achieved a perfect 800 on the SAT math achievement test, along with a 5 on the Calculus BC. But on the regular SAT, I only achieved around 1300 total, and the math part was somewhere between 780-800 (did I have a bad day?). I never completed college, but I have been successful nonetheless. I think that there is more to one's ability than simply achievement test scores, grade point averages, or college degrees.