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Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the ‘punishing signal’
- optimiz3 7y agoWas initially thinking this would be easy to troll, but then there's good old fashioned mob justice.
- cmroanirgo 7y agoMaybe there'll be an uptick in the number of handheld air horns sold... eg. A pedestrian sees the lights about to change NOT in their favour: honk, and then they've got time to cross. See also: Cobra Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
- mrighele 7y agoFrom the video it seems that there need to be many cars honking together for the threshold to be passed. A single pedestrian would probably not be able to trigger it.
- toast0 7y agoMy experience of vehicular traffic was that traffic rules including traffic signals are a guideline. Like the SHOULD in an RFC, follow them if it makes sense, and maybe feel bad a little when you don't follow them, but if the light is red for too long, why not go through it? Also, as a conspiracy theory, I think the traffic signal boxes are resonant to common horn frequencies, and actually, if the honking is too loud, it shakes the timer loose and it resets. This is just a cover story to make the failing signal circuits look like a positive. :)
- AstralStorm 7y agoThey're more like MUST or at least SHALL. That is, if you ignore them you will get fined or cause accidents.
- toast0 7y agoAll the autorickshaws went backward on one way streets if it was convenient. You might get fined if there's an officer around, I suppose. But I didn't see nearly enough of them.
- brazzy 7y ago...or just a sensor that averages the signal a bit so that single honks don't trigger it.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoTragedy of the commons. It only takes 1 person honking to delay everybody.
- sk0g 7y agoIt goes off a decibel Meyer that is triggered by multiple honks at the same time, as per the video.
- gouggoug 7y agoFrom what I gather this isn't the case. The signal resets if the decibel measured go past 85. It's unfortunately probably very easy to abuse, and some troll will. Also, here's a video made by the Mumbai police: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIgKvUPXeq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIgKvUPXeq4
- ampdepolymerase 7y agoA more precise but more expensive method would be to use phase array mics with license plate recognition cameras and just create a nominal fine.
- paulie_a 7y agoI like that idea. But if deployed in Chicago make it a 5,000 dollar fine.
- pkaye 7y agoDo people honk a lot in Chicago?
- paulie_a 7y agoYes, especially can drivers. They honk at everyone "crossing the road legally at an intersection", they will honk at you. Everyone seems to think honking will suddenly get traffic moving even though the next three intersections are backed up
- 7y ago
- duxup 7y agoIt is an interesting idea. I wonder if they just said it was happening, without actually changing anything, if properly advertised would it have an impact?
- piyush_soni 7y agoNo, people would figure it out soon.
- Arnt 7y agoMany traffic lights in India have a visible countdown timer. You see it counting to zero... or in this case resetting to 120 or whatever. It looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/MynJKCl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/MynJKCl.jpg
- duxup 7y agoAh, thank you.
- spectramax 7y agoThey need better signage that explains the concept, looks like a lot of people were just confused. Perhaps a sign in local language. Also, wouldn't this cause issues with the general flow of the traffic? One delay and you have cascading effects that perturbe macroscopic traffic patterns at the city level. This type of punishment would be detrimental in well coordinated traffic (probably not Mumbai): Study of traffic is an entire field in scientific research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_simulation
- piyush_soni 7y agoIt's mostly a one-off exercise (to teach people a lesson), they most probably don't plan to continue doing it.
- BurningFrog 7y agoWhy India loves honking https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-origins-of-horn-ok-please-indias-most-ubiquitous-phrase https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-origins-of-horn-ok...
- Polylactic_acid 7y agoThat still doesn't explain why they honk at red lights when no overtaking is going on.
- topmonk 7y agoBecause with enough honking, they can get the crowd to ignore the traffic light and start to inch forward anyway.
- jgtrosh 7y agoIf the lights start spending 2x longer often, surely that will push people to defy the light itself more than they did before. Using group punishment to curb individual behaviour is always at risk of undermining group obedience. I wonder what variables affect most whether the policy will be successful or detrimental.
- lopmotr 7y agoIf they're already so frustrated, some powerful force must be preventing them running red lights. That force is obviously very strong so it probably works on double-frustration pushiness too.
- BurningFrog 7y agoWhen I spent 3 weeks in Hyderabad in 2008, the red/green lights were completely ignored. As were lane markers and any other attempts at regulating traffic. It was a complete free-wheeling anarchy. It somehow worked quite well, though I understood why I was given a 24/7 driver. I could maybe have survived driving, but I would probably have killed someone else, by not following the unwritten rules. It remains one of the most astonishing things I have ever seen!
- aiyodev 7y agoI would have prioritized defecation in the water supply over noise pollution but maybe that’s just me.
- Eikon 7y agoWe have the same thing in France but to prevent speeding when a light is about to go red. On some lights, there’s a speed sensor, if a car exceeds the speed limit, it instantly goes from green to yellow then red.
- manojlds 7y agoThat...sounds dangerous.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y agoI presume the red is unilateral, meaning they don't (immediately) change the other side to green in response.
- manojlds 7y agoYeah that makes it a lot safer. But still, what if two cars are approaching the signal and they end up rear ending?
- ultrarunner 7y agoEven still, much like in India where drivers will learn to ignore the the punishing light, it could be drivers in France will learn that running reds does not increase a chance of collision because it’s only a signal of speed.
- mrpopo 7y agoIncreasing a chance of collision or not is not the same as losing a minute over a traffic light or annoying a few people. It does not appeal to the same emotions, it has a much deeper meaning. I believe the comparison is flawed.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 7y agoIt only has to increase the chance of getting a really expensive ticket and points on your license to discourage that.
- brian_ 7y agoI've often wondered how often honking is actually useful, e.g. for preventing an accident, versus just something to vent frustration. It seems some people instinctively reach for the horn before the brakes.
- manojlds 7y agoIn India honking is used for signalling that we are coming etc. Many times it's just about saying you do what you are doing, I am overtaking you so don't move.
- LorenPechtel 7y agoThis is common in many parts of the world.
- cyberjunkie 7y agoI strongly believe the nature of a society is best visualized through its traffic sense. Whether it's showing empathy, collaborating, cooperating, patience, discipline, following rules, the anything-will-do attitude, etc. I'm expecting the sabotaging nature will have a ton of people consciously going out of the way to screw up everyone else.
- zweep 7y agoWell India has far more lunatic traffic but far fewer per capita murders than the US. What’s the conclusion?
- pacamara619 7y agoThat your statistics are skewed
- zweep 7y agoWhich statistics?
- cortesoft 7y agoThe US has a LOT of guns
- Jamwinner 7y agoI own a few of them, as do I cars. I have so far managed not to murder anyone with either. Whats your point? We also have a lot of crime and an individualist attitude, and some large unintergrated culture bubbles which likely contribute more. Murder is in the intent, not the tool.
- cortesoft 7y agoThe point is that you need both the intent + ability to carry out a murder. People like to act as if someone who wants to murder someone would just use a knife if they didn't have access to a gun, but that is simply not true. It is way easier to murder someone with a gun than a knife, both physically and psychologically. If someone has the intent to murder someone, it is much more likely to actually happen if they have a gun. Thus, more guns means higher murder rate.
- cryptozeus 7y agoThis is great in idea but do seems like a gimmick. Do you honestly believe everyone on that road can read your sign posted in English ? I can judge this because I am from Bombay. After few min, crowd will just ignore the traffic light and take off. I really hope this works though ! Its insane how bay the noise pollution is.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 7y agoNo, but I assume most can read the numbers? People are good at seeing patterns. The countdown timers seem well-established so people know what they are. The decibel meter is probably something people will figure out quickly (number goes up when noise goes up). The reset is something people will definitely figure out quickly - bottom number goes over 85, countdown resets. Are there no fines for ignoring traffic lights? Since this is deployed to only a few traffic lights, seems like handing out a bunch of fines to everyone ignoring the light once or twice should be enough for a sufficient number of drivers to stop ignoring it.
- zaptheimpaler 7y agoWord of mouth and media coverage like this (which other papers will report in Hindi/Marathi as well) is probably enough to propagate the message to almost everyone within a few weeks. Hoping it works!
- LorenPechtel 7y agoAn awful lot of people there, especially the more educated, speak English.
- gfiorav 7y agoBring it to New York
- NovemberWhiskey 7y agoThere's no-one honking at red lights in NYC; if you're getting honked there, it's because you're stopped at the green.
- gfiorav 7y agoIf you live or spend time in a out-facing room, you'll the amount of unnecessary beeping that goes on in this city. Honestly, I think I have it good, all things considered, but coming from Europe it's very annoying to hear people use the honk to "communicate" instead of "alert" (which is essentially what this article is about).
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoChongqing just wound up banning horns in cars altogether, but that only works in authoritarian contexts.
- Barrin92 7y agomy first thought when reading the article was to simply suggest something softer like a geometric delay on honking. First honk 10 seconds wait time, if you honk to quickly push the delay up. With software nowadays finding some strategy to punish serial honkers shouldn't be too difficult. I don't think it requires an authoritarian state either, this would be pretty normal regulation in any country.
- green-bottle 7y agoI feel this is a problem in the majority of Indian cities. Perhaps Mumbai stands out here as it has more Traffic hence greater levels of unnecessary honking. Having worked at Bangalore and Hyderabad, living along/nearby any road with regular traffic lead to poor sleep quality due to sound pollution from senseless honking. Poorly enforced regulations regarding the hours when construction is allowed don't help either.
- aww_dang 7y agoAdd the temple loudspeakers to the list. Also, public defecation and rampant littering. S. Asia has a poor regard for public spaces.
- fredley 7y agoFor me the worst impact on sleep came from warring packs of stray dogs.
- mlrtime 7y agoIf you notice, almost all big trucks have hand painted signs on the back saying "HORN OK PLEASE" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please
- keiferski 7y agoNYC tried for over 30 years, and failed, to use signs to get people to stop honking. Unnecessary honking will still get you a $350 fine, though. https://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171837301/new-york-city-ends-30-year-experiment-with-dont-honk-signs https://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171837301/new-york-city-ends-... https://www.silive.com/news/2017/08/350_fine_for_improper_honking.html https://www.silive.com/news/2017/08/350_fine_for_improper_ho...
- asiachick 7y agothat sounds like an enforcement issue? China did the same in Shanghai in like 2008 and what felt like over night the horns stopped.
- udfalkso 7y agoSigns aren’t sufficient. It needs to be enforced and it isn’t. These tickets are never given out and everyone knows it.
- rosseloh 7y agoI just spent two nights in NYC (first time there; though I do live in a rural area, I'm not new to cities in general). But man, there was a honk every two seconds down on the street outside my room, only slowing down for an hour or two around 3-4AM. I was floored.
- hnarn 7y agoHonking is very uncommon in Sweden, and I remember my driving instructor pointing out to me that the only time you ever use it is to call attention to avoid an immediate accident. In practice, I see many drivers not even doing this. I routinely see people jaywalking in urban environments and cars just stopping until they've crossed. One thing that might be semi related to this is the entitlement of drivers. My view of Sweden is that most people accept that cities "belong" to pedestrians first hand, and cars need to be careful. In other parts of the world, the "get out of my way" entitlement of drivers is very apparent and I don't think it's very helpful.
- Svip 7y ago> In practice, I see many drivers not even doing this. I routinely see people jaywalking in urban environments and cars just stopping until they've crossed. Which is the correct thing to do. An immediate accident would be if a car was reversing out of a blind drive way, and another was approaching, and you're seeing the whole thing about to happen, but it isn't clear either of the two other drivers are. That's when you honk. If you can mitigate an accident by simply stopping, then don't honk. It's generally only for things you can see is about to happen, that the others probably haven't seen, or is aware of. Whether or not the accident will involve yourself is secondary.
- raducu 7y agoWhile I don't honk to punish people, I do (short)honk in case someone does something really stupid that could/almost caused an accident.
- mercer 7y agoAs a former full-time pedestrian: thanks. more than once it's reminded me to be more careful!
- gowld 7y agoStopping for a pedestrian won't save their life when another car zooms by you in the next lane, while your car is blocking their view. A pedestrian in the road is an emergency.
- brazzy 7y agoI once worked on a QA system for a car manufacturer. The idea was to data mine for commonly ocurring problems and then support a workflow to do root cause analysis and organize a fix in order to reduce warranty expenses. One problem that had been identified was "Cars of this model produced in this factory have the horn fail very often within the warranty period". The root cause analysis was: "This factory produces for the Indian market. The horn is designed for 50k activation cycles. Due to the higher use intensity in India, this is not sufficient." They were still debating whether to install a more sturdy horn only in cars delivered to India or everywhere.
- chetangoti 7y agoWas it German manufacturer? We experieneced lots of Skoda (basically anything of VW group) horn failures in India!
- carlmr 7y agoWe were told about this in a quality workshop. Had a similar issue once because we had lots of issues being reported from India. We found out drivers were opening the door while driving, triggering software problems, since when stopped the start-stop mechanism would assume the driver left the vehicle and would not start again. Turns out it's very common in India to chew betel nuts, open the door and spit it out. So India now has different software here.
- gpvos 7y agoThis is a clear example of software being too clever for its own good. The car is being started, so clearly there's someone inside, despite your fancy theories. The fix should have been applied to all cars.
- mosselman 7y agoThis video seems off to me. Sure the idea is fun, but in no way am I convinced that this really happened. This is just cute editing and CGI. At least as far as I can tell.
- remcob 7y agoFrom what a local told me, the car horns in Mumbai are by design less loud than the ones in Europe or the US. This fits my experience, but that might also be simply being used to the sound.
- wtmt 7y agoMany people change the horn from the factory fitted one to another of their liking (louder and/or different sound pattern/music), though it’s not legal. I don’t believe that the factory fitted horns are less loud than in Europe or the US.
- mirimir 7y agoBut wait! I doubt that their "decibel meters" are very directional. So perhaps drivers that currently have the green could honk more, and so force the signal to skip a cycle.
- phyzome 7y agoAlternatively, only prolong the red, but allow the green to proceed to yellow at the normal pace. (But then there's no cross-cutting traffic to keep people at the red in place...)
- mirimir 7y agoRight, give everyone red, until the noise level drops below some threshold. But then, people with loud horns could shut down traffic.
- zentiggr 7y agoAnd screw themselves in the process... not a net gain unless someone's wanting to share a bad day, I suppose.
- mirimir 7y agoWell, some American kids I know would do it for the lulz.
- mhb 7y agoUnless you live around there and want to encourage drivers to take alternate routes.
- Izkata 7y agoDoes Mumbai allow left-on-red like the US has right-on-red? People may do this to stop oncoming traffic and get turns faster.
- RandomBacon 7y agoIf everyone has red, people will just start running the red light.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y agoSome countries have a different kind of punishment signal. Instead of being connected to a camera and a fine system, the speed radar is linked to a red light a few hundred yards later. You can drive at the signed speed, or you can drive over the speed limit and wait for longer at the red. It's your choice.
- wtmt 7y agoSo, collectively punish everyone on the road (in front of you) because you crossed the limit instead of punishing you, the culprit, alone? That sounds very weird as a punishment.
- Scoundreller 7y ago1-way roads are usually timed like this. Start off on a new green, go a bit below the speed limit and you’ll hit greens the entire way. Speed and you’ll hit reds.
- ptah 7y agodoes that mean you can extend a green signal by honking too?
- GoToRO 7y agoHonking in India is not the same as honking in your country. It has a different meaning.
- blunte 7y agoIncessant honking is just another form of mass of mass ignorance. Whether it is spitting, throwing cigarette butts, stealing any small thing that isn't locked down, or honking, the end result is that everyone's quality of life decreased - even the people doing the bad thing. The ignorance is that anyone who took just a moment to think through the situation would realize that such actions do not help. But for some reason, large numbers of humans default to low level mental functioning whereby they spend most of their lives operating without rational thought.
- ipnon 7y agoIt's like the tragedy of the commons: I honk -> I arrive faster We all honk -> We all arrive slower How to change these problem behaviors en masse is still an open problem, as far as I know. The approach taken in the link by the Mumbai police, of introducing a negative feedback mechanism for the behavior, is a psychologically sound approach.
- mywacaday 7y agoEntertaining to watch but I can imagine kids with air horns would find it hilarious to mess with drivers if this was rolled out widely.
- AC_Fan 7y agoNice idea, but honestly, horns do not even come into the top 10 problems for most people. You have terrible roads and public transportation, corrupt government-commercial nexuses and whatnot; is this seriously the most important thing for you to focus on?
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoThis seems like a great way to train people to ignore red lights. When the lights just stay red people are going to just inch out until they block the other traffic and then start going. Formerly traffic light controlled intersections are going to turn into effectivly uncontrolled intersections with the resulting decrease in throughput.
- tobyhinloopen 7y agoAwful website keeps popping around
- asenna 7y agoThe honking situation in India genuinely fascinates me (apart from driving me insane). If someone's not experienced it, you won't know what we're talking about. Comparing it to France / other places won't do justice. I compare it to Bats using sonar echo to move while being almost blind (I know this analogy doesn't hold exactly but you know what I mean?). I have seen bikes in smaller town hoking continuously down a straight empty road - probably because they want to announce they're coming and letting kids / other people know they're coming and you better look out (not to annoy you but out of genuine concern for YOU). Bigger cities have the same problem amplified. Everyone letting everyone else know that they're around, watch out. I've lived in other crowded cities in developing nations like Nairobi - it has the same traffic problems but not a single car honking! The entire town stuck in traffic and complete silence! So it is possible, I just don't understand what gave Indian drivers the idea that this helps in their driving.
- bbayer 7y agoI have been in Bangalore and I really couldn't understand who is honking to me because everybody honk. It is just chaos.
- clashmeifyoucan 7y agoThe safety part does have something to do with it. But more often the horn is used as a stress ball, as if pressing it will somehow get traffic moving faster. There's also this category of bikers who want to speed on empty roads looking all "heroic" who honk away without a care in the world.
- nadahalli 7y agoI am from Bangalore, and in 2012, I tried an experiment in an auto-rickshaw (tuk-tuk). I offered to pay the driver double the meter price if he didn't honk even once during an upcoming 1 hour-ish ride. The driver thought I was nuts to offer him this obviously easy money, and accepted it. I told him up front that the first honk, and the extra money was off the table. He said - ok - and we started the ride. The first few kilometers were pleasant, and the driver was cool with it - but as we entered the business district with more traffic, he became more and more frustrated and started to hum and sing to take it out a bit. Then, he kind of started "barking" (for the lack of a better word) at other drivers who irritated him. He then resorted to outright shouting at the drivers. Eventually, something snapped and he honked once. I told him the deal was off, and the rest of my trip was a veritable honk-hell. I have always believed the stress ball theory after this one-off experiment.
- nkrisc 7y agoThere's an easy solution to this: the horn should be as loud inside the car as it is outside the car.
- YourCupOTea 7y agoAs someone who walks 99% of the time this is something I have said on numerous occasions. When someone honks at me when I am legally crossing the street with a walk signal the car horn should be just as loud for you as it is for me.
- forferdet 7y agoI think it's because of the cows! In India, the cows roam around freely, and if you have ever been on the road with a cow in front of you, it does not give a shit and will basically just stand there, eventually move when it feels like it. The obvious action to alert something/someone hindering you is to use the horn, "you are in my way", but that does not work for cows that well. Over time, this weird culture developed of honking. Often honking in reply to each other, like a rhythm almost.
- qwerty456127 7y agoWhoever honks (in any country) without a legitimate need (to prevent an emergency) should be fined severely or get his driving license postponed. Even is somebody violates the rules, you should not honk unless you sincerely believe an accident is going to happen if you don't honk.
- smn1234 7y agoin NYC the honking is endless. I imagine the noise pollution from a single honk in midtown impacts thousands of people who are around the immediate intersection and possibly 2-3 city blocks from it. I had hoped Tesla would've pioneered mesh networking their cars with internal alerting/signaling mechanisms. Eventually selling the tech to other manufacturers.
- Lorin 7y agoFrom my experience, Chennai had it 10x worse than Mumbai. Almost every truck had "Honk please" hand drawn in various styles on their rears.
- fulldecent2 7y agoParabolic dish from hotel room directly to sound sensor will DOS the intersection. And be difficult to detect.
- lorepieri 7y agoWhat if there was a tax on honking? Like 0.1 cent for every honking. With advanced enough car technology I see this as being a real thing.