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Ask HN: Feasible Alternative to the MacBook Pro?

563 points by ryanmccullagh 7y ago

The MBP is by far the best laptop I’ve used. The graphics are amazing, and the touchpad is ergonomic. However, Apple has demonstrated their inability to be reliable. I bought my MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up from its 3rd repair. I’ve grown tired of this repair routine. And after the 3 years runs out, they will start charging me.

drevil-v2 7y ago
Slightly OT however for what it’s worth the new 16inch MBP with a redesigned non-butterfly keyboard is supposed to be available soon. I would suggest you hold off any laptop decision until then.
- inopinatus 7y ago
  The first hurdle for me is still whether it has an Escape key.
  - zerotolerance 7y ago
    Get yourself a clutch :) https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch
  - jkelleyrtp 7y ago
    You can rebind your capslock key to escape. I'm so addicted that I rebind it on every keyboard I use now. It's a much better location than normal escape and works everywhere throughout the OS.
    - inopinatus 7y ago
      Tried it. Not a fan.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Waiting for that announcement myself. Plus a few months to see just how reliable they are.
- frogperson 7y ago
  the rumors suggest that it will initially ship with the old keyboard, to get upgraded sometime in 2020.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  Meh. Are you really confident this first new batch will be ok?
- awalton 7y ago
  Err, have you ever bought a first-gen Apple product? Not something you walk into lightly... Apple has a tendency to let customers find their flaws rather than actually test for them and shake them out. I'd rather not volunteer $3000 to be a guinea pig for Apple's keyboard design gremlins. If they went back to the 2016 model and just slapped a new motherboard inside and made the battery larger, then yeah, it'd be a no brainer. But I can't imagine them being that smart about it given the past few years of evidence to the contrary.
  - house9-2 7y ago
    > Err, have you ever bought a first-gen Apple product? I have 1st gen iMac retina, I have had zero issues and have been using it daily since I bought it new in 2014. I did get SSD and upgraded cpu and graphics card; I believe the base models under performed so I can imagine people were not so happy with those models? Only regret, it cannot be used as an external monitor. > I'd rather not volunteer $3000 to be a guinea pig for Apple's keyboard design gremlins. yeah, I would probably wait as well; unless work was paying for it
    - redler 7y ago
      > Only regret, it cannot be used as an external monitor. You should check out Luna Display. In the wake of being "Sherlocked" by Apple's new iPad Sidecar feature, they've added support for using Macs as external displays. https://lunadisplay.com/pages/meet-mac-to-mac-mode https://lunadisplay.com/pages/meet-mac-to-mac-mode
- pier25 7y ago
  It's generally not a good idea to buy a 1st gen Apple product. IMO it would be better to wait at least to a 2nd gen of the redesigned MBPs.
adreamingsoul 7y ago
I recently switched to the Lenovo Thinkpad P1 running Ubuntu. After 6 months of use, I’m fairly happy with it.
- jordanthoms 7y ago
  How is graphics switching working on those? AFAIK you need to use the discrete card for HDMI/displayport, and integrated for best battery life, but switching between them takes a reboot.
godzillabrennus 7y ago
Nothing equals the MacBook line even with all the downgrades since they switched to Donglebook models. Closest I’ve used is the Surface line but it’s not nearly as good. I’m still using a donglebook. My work gave me one and I had bought one so I have a spare for when one is being repaired. The keyboards are utter shit, the usb C charging is a big downgrade, and the touch pads are now so big they often get in the way of typing. The 2012 MacBook Pro Retina I bought before my 2018 Donglebook still hasn’t had issues.
jonny383 7y ago
Dell XPS developer edition, or if you want a 15", the non-developer edition. Touch pad is not quite as good, but the rest of the hardware is up to spec. The 4K screen is arguably better than a MBP.
muzani 7y ago
Slightly off topic, I greatly prefer a touch screen over the touch pad. One downside of switching is that work software for Macs are very well built. Webstorm feels clunkier on Windows than Mac, for example. I wish I could recommend something, but nothing seems to meet the weight, quality, power match. HP Pavilion has the weight and power of a MBP, and the tablet mode is fun. But the touchpad is terrible. Dell XPS has power and a good build, but is too heavy if you like to lug around two laptops like me. MS Surfacebook seems nice, but some friends report that it it's also similarly fragile.
- monkeycantype 7y ago
  I've been doing a lot of work on windows, so I bought a surface book, and I really like it. But it is fragile. I bought a refurb, and I had to exchange it twice. Fortunately the support is good, when I've had a problem, MS swapped it for me via courier . I've had everything backed up on one drive and really been quite easy. If you find yourself in this position, their online support chat has certain hours in each country, just switch the /us/uk/au path segment in the chat url and you'll get to chat with a person any time of day.
emilsedgh 7y ago
X1 Carbon is a really nice device. Its pretty reliable, Linux friendly and has no spyware installed like some other Lenovo lines. But no matter what laptop you pick, its gonna take you a couple of weeks until you are comfortable with it. But it will happen eventually. Laptops have the same interface after all. Switching the entire software stack from Mac to any other OS is probably the main struggle. Try a couple of Linuxes or Windows for a few weeks until you find the sweet spot. Between Mac, Windows and major Linux distributions, there is none that is objectively better anymore(for developer experience). Its a matter of preference and habit.
- yoloClin 7y ago
  I used an X1 for a few months. It took me a fortnight of rage before I discovered you can switch fn and ctrl in BIOS. after that I really liked it. I'm going to be in the market for a new <= 14" soon but want more ram than the X1 carbon offers. A T490 caps out at 40gb and has decent specs on paper, I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on the model though.
  - koyote 7y ago
    I have a somewhat older T4xx model that's still running (bought in 2012/13 I believe). During its lifetime I upgraded the hard-drive, RAM, the keyboard (well, it wasn't an upgrade...coffee spilled on the previous one...) and even the screen. I have since upgraded to an X1 carbon which is significantly slimmer and lighter (although I never had any complaints about the previous laptop in that respect). I personally think the T4xx line is a perfect compromise between portability and power. So as long as you're ok with having a slightly thicker and heavier laptop you'll be very happy with it.
  - disposedtrolley 7y ago
    I recently purchased a T490 and it works reasonably well with Linux. My model has the base 1080p display rated at 250 nits, and while resolution and colour are no match for an MBP, the display surprisingly gets bright enough for some outdoor use. Build quality is solid and keyboard is great. Speakers sound pretty rough but get decently loud. I got maybe 7-8 hours of use with the screen at 60%, and alternating between coding in Emacs and watching some videos. I've tried Manjaro and the latest Ubuntu 18.04 LTS and have had no issues that would be a deal breaker. The only annoyance is jittery movement with the TrackPoint, but I've had that on every modern ThinkPad running Linux. I've been leaning towards using the trackpad more often and it seems to work okay.
tuukkah 7y ago
Thinkpad X1 Carbon (or Extreme for 15" OLED display and 64GB RAM)
setnone 7y ago
can you share what was broken since January?
- askmike 7y ago
  I'm betting it's the keyboard.
- ryanmccullagh 7y ago
  Hi, 3 things broke. First it was a dead pixel on the screen, second was a reproducible kernel panic (using any video chat application would panic the kernel.). The last and hopefully final issue was the keyboard issue (double keys, and weird issues with the key not pressing sometimes).
Varriount 7y ago
The Dell XPS line is pretty decent, and the newer models have fixed some design flaws (like camera placement). The higher-end models have discrete graphics cards, fingerprint readers, and a decent resolution display.
- supernes 7y ago
  Bought an XPS a couple of months ago and had to return it because of the inexcusable ghosting and slow refresh on the 4K panel and the frankly inadequate thermal design. Outrageously bad for the asking price.
ypcx 7y ago
First, bad apples do happen in both Mac and Windows worlds. I've worked primarily on Macbooks over the last 10 years (while Windows on laptop was still in diapers) and they never failed on me. Now that Windows 10 Pro is getting really good, and the Macs are getting obliterated by horrid design decisions, I see myself switching to Windows. I personally prefer Windows laptops with UHD/QHD screens because I can put much more info on it (e.g. 3 vertical code windows or two vertical web browsers). The Mac won't let me set that high a DPI, even if the resolution is theoretically there. Also the 4:3 Mac screen ratio many times results in the bottom part of the screen obscured by fingers, e.g. bed coding. That said, the best I've found is Lenovo Yoga 920 and Dell XPS 15. The Dell can be fitted with 64 GB ram e.g. if you run VMs, and since you mention amazing graphics, the OLED version says Hi to the Macbook Pro, from another universe (in other words the Mac display looks like utter trash compared to it). In all cases, you need to clean-reinstall from a Microsoft provided Windows installer (to get rid of the massive preinstalled, buggy and inefficient bloatware), and run ThrottleStop to undervolt the machine to avoid the extra heat and boost the battery performance. Write down what you do, and over time you will develop your "install script". Chocolatey is your friend. HTH
- kokey 7y ago
  Try running something like EasyRes on your Mac, you can then switch to the actual resolution of the monitor. It’s somewhat insane how much stuff fits into the screen of my 13” MacBook.
  - ypcx 7y ago
    Actually, independently, I just did that a few days ago on my MBP 12", installed "RDM", it's pretty awesome.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Macs are 16:10.
badatshipping 7y ago
Try getting a refurbished 2015 MacBook Pro (the last good model), as powerful as you need.
hellofunk 7y ago
The new razor blade 15 really caught my eye. Expensive, though.
propercoil 7y ago
Macbook Air > Macbook Pro just because of the keyboard
- hdbsbv_shdbfb 7y ago
  I have MBP ‘18 and an Air ‘19 and I was surprised how much better the keyboard is. I didn’t buy it for that reason — I just like to have a second, more portable laptop for backup and convenience. It is much nicer to type on and feels more rugged. I agree with the general consensus here however — Apple needs to get its shit together and stop pursuing meaningless marketing metrics and start making great computers again. SWEs / tech people (myself included) probably overestimate their importance vis-a-vis Apple, but it would really only take one great alternative from Razer or Lenovo or a new company to cause a mass exodus. That will definitely not be good for Apple. At this point I use Apple because they piss me off slightly less than the alternatives let me down aesthetically. It’s hubris for Apple to assume that will always be the case.
  - jordanthoms 7y ago
    Yeah, Lenovo is almost there with the X1 Carbon/Extreme and Razer's ones look good too - if they'd just fix the trackpads and have officially supported Linux with the Optimus problems fixed they'd be a great alternative.
  - llampx 7y ago
    Is there really that much of a portability difference between an Air and a Pro?
pkalinowski 7y ago
I'm looking for a replacement, too. Had Macbook Pro 2015 and 2018. I plan to settle on Windows 10 Pro + Ubuntu WSL. I don't need top specs (i5 and 16GB RAM are enough for me), but build quality (touchpad, screen, robustness) and weight are most important. Playing with Surface Pro 6 in shop I kinda like it, but I can't find XPS or X1 to lay my hands on. How is the build quality between Surface Pro, XPS and X1? Which one has the best touchpad, screen?
- EugeneOZ 7y ago
  Dell XPS 15 (2019) has good keyboard - better than Surface Pro, worse than Lenovo. Very good touchpad - worse than Macbook, better than any other manufacturer. Materials are nice to touch, design is very good looking (comparable to MBP). Screen has very modest viewing angle, but if you don't move your head too much, colors are vibrant and image quality is great.
- mkl 7y ago
  Maybe look at Surface Book too? Bigger screen, discrete graphics option, two batteries, bigger touchpad. I have one for work. Not sure what the Surface Pro 6 is like physically, but Surface Book 2 beats Surface Pro 4 at almost everything.
morphar 7y ago
I am seriously considering Purism Librem 13 (https://puri.sm/products/librem-13/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-13/) as a replacement for my MBP. I haven't had any hands on experience with it though, so if anybody have tried it, I would love to hear about your experience. I like the privacy first approach and I think it is becoming more and more essential to have this kind of alternative.
- Madeindjs 7y ago
  It sound very good. I would love to have a feedback on this product because I think it expensive (start at 1100€ for 8 GO RAM + 250 GO ...)
  - morphar 7y ago
    According to the article I just shared, it seems like it's not just expensive, but unnecessarily expensive :(
- kgarten 7y ago
  I'm using the 15" as I'm a sucker for 4K screens. Very happy with it.
  - morphar 7y ago
    Thanks for sharing! I'm a sucker for 4k as well, but not so much for big laptops ;) I was hoping for a 13" 4k from Purism, before reading what Zlatan Todoric had to say about Purism.
- morphar 7y ago
  And then this landed on HN: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T... Basically Zlatan Todoric the former CTO of Purism calls Purism's claims "shady" :( Too bad... I had high hopes for Purism.
  - kgarten 7y ago
roadbeats 7y ago
I use MBP 2015 at work, Macbook Air 2013 at home, run Arch Linux on both devices (dual boot). Had no issues so far.
truth_seeker 7y ago
XPS 13 (or 15) https://www.pcworld.com/article/3445857/dell-xps-13-2-in-1-vs-mac-pro.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3445857/dell-xps-13-2-in-1-v...
rcarmo 7y ago
I have been using a Rev1 Surface Laptop as a development machine for over a year - here are my notes after six months: - https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/05/11/2030 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/05/11/2030 Full disclosure: I work at Microsoft. I also still use Macs (and will keep using them regardless-for instance, I use a 5K iMac a lot of the time I work remotely) and have kept a Mac-centric blog for sixteen years, so I think I can be pretty straightforward and direct about this: The Surface Laptop is at least as good as the MacBook (hardware-wise), and depending on what you do (for instance, if you can take advantage of WSL2 and the new Linux environment that comes with it), it may well be better. IMMV. Hardware-wise, I cannot fault it except in the number of ports (new models changed that a bit). Having moved from a Lenovo X1 (which I hated) to it, and having avoided the hassles involved in the Surface Book (the hinge and detachable screen make for a wobbly, temperamental machine IMHO, and I’m not alone in thinking that), I’d say it is a great machine. (I still carry around a Surface Pro 4 because it is only a slight bit smaller and lighter, but the Laptop has a nicer screen)
- alpaca128 7y ago
  The problem with Surface devices is that they're irrepairable once something goes wrong. I had issues with my Surface Pro and Microsoft support basically said "too bad, buy a new one". That's why I went for a T-series Thinkpad and am still using it. It's not as lightweight or slim but in exchange more powerful than equally priced ultrabooks/convertibles and easy to repair and upgrade. That's a trade-off I'm happy to make.
  - pcdoodle 7y ago
    ^ This. I hear the next version will be repairable but until then, it's not an option.
    - rcarmo 7y ago
      The current version has an externally accessible SSD and other repair tweaks. Check the blog posts on it.
  - 7y ago
joe_cloggy 7y ago
I am a long time mac user, up until 2015 for the valid reasons already noted re post 2015 MBP's, and I work with music. Here's recent article that may be of interest to the OP. https://www.meldaproduction.com/text-tutorials/switching-from-osx-to-windows https://www.meldaproduction.com/text-tutorials/switching-fro...
robin_reala 7y ago
Rather than suggesting a different manufacturer, I’d suggest getting a complete machine swap under whatever lemon law is applicable in your location. Obviously 3 repairs in 10 months is unacceptable, but Apple’s machines – even including the keyboard faults – aren’t generally that unreliable. If it is the keyboard then it’s 4 years, not 3 (https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-n...).
- jstsch 7y ago
  I picked up a maxed out 2016 MPB right when it came out, including 2 LG 5K displays. I suffered random total system crashes with those external displays connected. After going through three repair cycles Apple replaced mine with a brand new (faster) 2018 model, I didn't even have to ask for it. It was a bit of a drag to backup/restore the machine a bunch of times but Apple's service was top notch.
deleted 7y ago
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fierarul 7y ago
You didn't mention what are you doing with the laptop? If you filter by laptops with the same weight, screen resolution, fast CPU, etc., etc. there's going to be a small list of laptops of comparable price. So, if you start being more flexible in some areas you have more choices. For example, how about a Ryzen desktop + a no fuss laptop for when you are mobile? (This assumes you mostly work in one office on the desktop, but also want to be mobile). Depending how used you are to macOS you'll probably come back to Apple. Maybe buy an use / refurbished MBP.
jankotek 7y ago
XPS 13, onsite service is great and is also easy to replace parts by yourself.
mxschumacher 7y ago
I'm on my second Lenovo laptop (now T450s, before that: L-series). I use Linux on it and am really satisfied.
Spark_Ed 7y ago
I've personally loved the spectre series from HP for their 4k displays and good specs for the price. I use a MSP16 for drafting and design work, so the gpu is pretty critical for me.
odiroot 7y ago
I would recommend Thinkpad T-series even for the keyboard and touchpad only. It's much heavier though, but at that much more repairable and sturdier.
- andreareina 7y ago
  Unfortunately even the T-series has gone 100% on the integrated battery now, which IME is the thing most likely to need to be fixed. Aside from that, agreed.
  - odiroot 7y ago
    Oh no, that's sad to hear. I have T460p with completely replaceable battery and T470 with half-and-half. Didn't expect they would be go 100% baked in.
  - ants_a 7y ago
    Swapping the integrated battery is a 5 minute job, so if you are not planning on hauling around multiple batteries, it's not a major issue. I haven't really used the hot swap capability my T440s has, even though I have multiple. Maybe if they had a separate charging dock for the batteries...
    - pm7 7y ago
      Did you try to open T470/T480 (maybe T490)? There are awful latches which are integrated in case, so quite expensive to replace.
- Tharkun 7y ago
  Have you used a recent model? The T490/T590 is pretty awful. They keyboard has been getting worse with each new release. The battery is now integrated. Not enough USB ports. And to top it off, there's no "p" model, which means a brand new T490 is hardly any faster than my three year old T460p. But hey, they're thinner now, which I'm sure makes some marketeer somewhere very happy for reasons I'll never understand. Edit: the P43 seems pretty interesting, so there's that option.
marmaduke 7y ago
The Dell business laptops run really well on Linux. I ha e a 5290 (x280 equivalent) on CentOS 7.7 and everything just works. Higher end stuff like their xps 15 or 7530 are also very good. Getting Retina to not eat battery life has been a little tricky though. On a non retina system, I got down to 1W idle, whereas it was 15W idle on a retina system. With Firefox, 2-5W non Retina, but 25-35W for Retina. This will inevitably improve, but it's something to watch out for. On Windows, it's less of a problem, as they seem to run a lot of the graphics on the Intel GPU, only switching to discrete when required.
kraig911 7y ago
I just changed to a dell XPS 15. I love the nvidia discreet GPU and it's keyboard and trackpad are pretty nice. And having a escape key.
JDiculous 7y ago
It depends on what your priorities are, but I recently bought a LG Gram 17" and absolutely love it. It has a massive 17" 2560-1600 screen, yet is as light as a Macbook Air, and practically as thin too. 13 hour battery life, and super comfortable keyboard. Even the charger is smaller and lighter than any other I've seen. Honestly I've never seen anything like this in my life, and only $1,448 (https://amzn.to/2P2txdv https://amzn.to/2P2txdv) I've also used a Dell XPS 15 9570 for the past year and a half which I spent $2.6k on (similar to this https://amzn.to/33PA53x https://amzn.to/33PA53x). Specs-wise it's awesome and blows the MBP out of the park particularly when you factor in the price. But I've had a lot of issues with it unfortunately, having to get it repaired twice, and then another couple times I've had the screen just start glitching and crashing, both times resolving it via reinstalling Windows (seems to have been problems with the drivers). Outside of that, the laptop itself is a bit thicker and heavier than a MBP, the battery life is pretty weak (4 hours maybe?), it gets very hot and the fans get really loud, and the Wifi card sucks. Although the 4k screen is beautiful with fantastic anti-reflection, I've found that I prefer the 16:10 aspect ratio of the LG Gram and MBP vs. the 16:9 of the Dell since the former feels way bigger and I find having a taller screen more convenient (eg. for coding). Ultimately it comes down to your preferences. Do you prioritize having the best specs? Then between the two you should get a Dell XPS 15 or alternatively a Dell Precision 5540 (very similar to the XPS 15, but more geared towards 3D work). If on the other hand you value portability but love having a large screen, I highly recommend the LG Gram 17. I don't think there's ever been a 17" laptop as light and portable as this one. Ever since I received my LG, I stopped using my Dell. Unless you're doing a ton of video editing, 3d graphics work, or gaming, you really don't need more than 16gb RAM and an i7 processor. For stuff like coding and browsing the web, I certainly don't notice any performance difference (haven't tested more intensive stuff yet).
- pkalinowski 7y ago
  How do you find the touchpad? I disqualified LG Gram because of it, feels like cheap $500 HP laptop
  - duchenne 7y ago
    I have also used an LG gram for 5+ years. The touchpad is just normal. Maybe, you say that it feels cheap because it bends a little bit when you press it. I guess that is the price to pay to have a 17 inches laptop under a kilogram. However, I did not notice any mechanical failure. The keyboard is still as solid as day one. I just had to change the battery at some point, it was super cheap and easy to change by myself with a standard screwdriver. I regularly loose the charger, but it is also cheap to buy a new one.
SyneRyder 7y ago
I switched from Mac to a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Yoga 3rd Gen, when my MacBook Pro was similarly unreliable (6 repairs through the Apple Store). The feel of the keyboard & trackpad were important to me, and the 4K display option covers 100% of the Adobe RGB color palette. I rarely use the Yoga's tablet feature, but as a Photoshop user it has sometimes been useful for photo editing with the built-in stylus. There's a built-in microSD card slot in the 3rd Gen & I put a giant microSD card in there for extra internal data storage (eg MP3 collection). The SSD is user upgradeable but I've had problems trying to get the SSD screw out myself. There's a lot of small irritations and frustrations compared with the Mac to overcome, but the X1 Yoga has been far more reliable than my MacBook Pro. No problems in a year, whereas the Mac over the same time would have had 3 - 4 weeks of downtime due to repairs. It turns out reliability is more important to me, I need to get work done. I'd also seriously consider the Surface Book / Surface Laptop range, I very nearly chose a Surface Book 2 until I saw the ThinkPad X1.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  Same here, what tipped the X1 for me was the impossibility to buy a Surface Book with US QWERTY keyboard in Europe — the only options are country-based and that's a no for me as a dev. The alternative, buy it from the US and pay for shipping, means that I could not get service because Microsoft's warranty only works in the country of purchase. That's such a bad policy, compared to Lenovo's pro support (on-site next day etc). Microsoft is not really catering to pro users here, no international warranty from a megacorp is puzzling.
mav3rick 7y ago
Chromebook
sandGorgon 7y ago
Dell XPS - its the sexiest laptop that runs Linux.
moksly 7y ago
I switched from a 2018 mbp 13” i5 to a surface pro 6 also i5, and I haven’t looked back. Development is much, much nicer with VSC and WSL, and while I do think Mac OS is better than Windows, it’s not that much of a difference. One thing I will say though is that you don’t get the same resale value. I sold my MBP for around 80% of its original cost after one years usage, my surface pro on the other hand pretty much lost all of its value the moment I walked out the shop. As a long time Mac user, the switch was surprisingly easy. I do miss not having iMessage and a few other Mac ecosystem tools, but with more and more of my friends switching to android it’s becoming less and less of an issue. Over all the Microsoft surface line feels like products that Apple should have designed.
mherrmann 7y ago
I switched from MBP to a Dell XPS 13 with Ubuntu. I compare the experience to living in a hotel vs. living at home [1]. In a hotel (=on Mac), everything is stylish and cared for, but you have very little freedom to change things. At home (=on Linux), you need to do the dishes yourself but there's no external agenda. It's simply yours. I'm very happy with the switch. Though I'm on (Debian+) Xfce now instead of Ubuntu and would go for a ThinkPad instead of the XPS, because 1) I want a 14" screen 2) the XPS's fan is too loud, especially when Skyping 3) the XPS's camera is placed at the bottom of the screen instead of at the top, so people you have video calls with look up your nostrils. [1]: https://fman.io/blog/home-and-hotel https://fman.io/blog/home-and-hotel
- Un1corn 7y ago
  > the XPS's camera is placed at the bottom of the screen instead of at the top, so people you have video calls with look up your nostrils. The camera is no longer placed at the bottom of the screen in the newest model (9380), they moved it up top
  - mherrmann 7y ago
    Ah, okay! That's great.
  - tom_mellior 7y ago
    Huh, weird. I used to have an XPS 15 (from 2015 or so) with the camera placed on top, but my newer one (2018) has it at the bottom. Weird and unwelcome.
    - SiVal 7y ago
      It's back on top in the 2019 XPS 15
  - ahnick 7y ago
    That's great to hear. Maybe everyone complaining loudly about that got them to redesign it. I completely ruled out getting an XPS previously because of that design decision.
seanwilson 7y ago
I'm looking into Chromebooks. I'm happy with my MacBook except that if I'm traveling with it and it breaks or gets stolen, I don't have a lot of options if I'm dependent on expensive Mac hardware. If I can switch to developing on a Chromebook, picking up a new one in an emergency is a lot more feasible, plus they're very secure and low maintenance. Has anyone tried moving from Mac to ChromeOS?
- yRetsyM 7y ago
  I'm curious about this as well, I'm more in a hybrid role now where less and less coding effort and I'm living in Chrome anyway for most of my tasks...
- skunkpocalypse 7y ago
  My "daily driver" is a chromebook running linux: Samsung Chromebook Plus RK3399. Keyboard feel is identical to the good old macbooks. Also: feather-light magnesium casing, gorgeous 300nit 2500x1600 screen, and 100% open-source: no blobs, no IME, no PSP. Coreboot, baby. No stupid Google G-chip. Even recompiled the Embedded Controller firmware -- and not just for geek points. I customized the charging+wake behavior so it will wake immediately when AC power is applied even if the lid is closed -- never could get my mac to do that reliably, despite lots of third-party hacks claiming to make it happen. So now when I get home all I have to do is plug in AC power and I can access files on the laptop over the network -- no need to log in to the laptop, open the lid, or connect an external display. If it's got AC power it's awake and on the network. Bonus: they're so cheap I bought several, and don't have to worry about damage. They take abuse amazingly well due to the alloy casing and the fact that they weigh so little. I expect to use these laptops for the next 6-8 years.
- atrilumen 7y ago
  I've been using a Pixelbook for the past year or so. I do like the look and feel of the hardware: nice screen, decent keyboard and touch pad, and a thin metal body which feels really solid. The silicone palm rests start to yellow a bit, but really increase comfort. Overall, I'm happy with the hardware. The software is an interesting concept, and actually the reason I bought it. I like the idea of a minimal, verified Linux that only runs Chrome, and (WIP) Linux containers for everything else. I've had many issues that disrupted my work, and required switching to different release channels. Obviously this is on me for choosing to use the "Beta" container support feature, but I am still annoyed by it often because somehow bugs make their way through all those channels: Canary -> Dev -> Beta -> and even down to Stable. Several times I was forced to move to a higher channel to escape a serious / disruptive issue, only to encounter different issues. And then moving back down again requires a "powerwash", wiping all your data. So I feel like I'm just being chased around by issues that should have been resolved in a higher channel. As a result, there tends to be nothing on this machine that isn't in the cloud somewhere. I suppose that's a good thing. Trust is another issue, entirely. I'm looking for something else. I may install an alt OS like Gallium.
mcv 7y ago
With all the bad reviews about Apple, I didn't want to replace my old 17" MacBook Pro with a new Macbook (also, they don't do 17" anymore), so I just ordered a Thinkpad X1 Extreme instead. Thinkpad has had a stellar reputation for sturdy quality since forever, and the X1 Extreme seems like a fairly good compromise between power, size, and other concerns. It's not 17" because the only 17" Thinkpads are the monstrous P73s. According to reviews, it's quieter than my old Macbook (which was extremely noisy), but I intend to make it quieter by repasting and undervolting, which seems to be a fairly common procedure for Thinkpads. Also, if it breaks down during the first 3 years, I get on-site support, so I don't have to go anywhere when it breaks down; they come to me. (My specs: 32 GB (still upgradable to 64GB), i7-9850H, 2x 1TB SSD (one for Windows, one for Linux perhaps) and the 4K OLED screen. I expect this to last me for quite a while.)
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  > I intend to make it quieter by repasting and undervolting >Also, if it breaks down during the first 3 years, I get on-site support, Aren't these two statements mutually exclusive?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mcv 7y ago
    Good question. They don't have to be, but I suppose it's worth checking. I found a forum post where someone asked Lenovo support[0] which apparently said: "When it comes to changing the thermal paste - if you know what you're doing, you're totally fine, but if you break something during the procedure, the repair will not be covered by warranty." That sounds entirely reasonable. But I guess it's worth checking how well it works with the factory paste first. Some people say it's nonsense to believe an amateur can apply thermal paste better than the factory, others report a 10 degree C difference. [0] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Carbon-6th-changing-SSD-and-thermal-paste-vs-warranty/m-p/4096188#M86390 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Ca...
shpx 7y ago
Either the XPS 13 or a MacBook Air.
MatekCopatek 7y ago
If you're in the market for an ultrabook, I recommend the Huawei Matebook X Pro. Fully aluminum, solid build quality, a keyboard that matches the old MBPs and a 3:2 screen ratio. Downsides are a terrible webcam and all the scandals surrounding Huawei.
- awalton 7y ago
  > Huawei Matebook X Pro Yeah I have no idea why other manufacturers haven't looked at this machine and taken away just how good it is. I'd buy a Dell or Lenovo version of the Matebook X Pro in a heartbeat, if they were smart enough to stick to some of its design principles and refine them. 3:2 is a wonderful display ratio for laptops. It's a very nice compromise between widescreen and the venerable 4:3 ratio, and makes it a much more usable machine for hackers and writers alike. I own an older Chromebook Pixel that I still use for travel purposes, and even despite its tininess, it's still one of my favorite machines just for the display aspect ratio, even if it spent several years being a pain in the ass thanks to Google not upstreaming the Linux drivers and not putting enough flash memory onboard despite it being a "premium" machine... The Matebook X Pro features an Macbook-like touchpad, a chicklet keyboard that actually feels decent and is reliable at the same time, but maybe has a little less refinement than the Macbook Pro in some areas too - putting both its USB-C ports on the same side so you can't charge it from either side, as an example, and people are pretty hit/miss on the idea of having the webcam in the keyboard (not something I personally mind; I prefer having a hideaway camera over a piece of electrical tape on my machine). However, the real killer about the Matebook X Pro now is that its design is a little over three years old. It's two Intel mobile CPU revisions out of date, and its nVidia MX150 chip wasn't great when it was new in early 2017 - Intel's Iris graphics are more compelling for the power budget on these machines (yes, the nVidia chip is still a little faster at the top end, but at the cost of 2.5x the power usage). And just from all of the various improvements made over the past few years, you're going to be able to squeeze out a couple extra hours of battery life from the platform alone, which is really still a killer feature for laptops. So quite frankly, if we're talking about buying machines as out of date as the Matebook X Pro... why wouldn't you buy the all-around better machine: a new old stock Macbook Pro from before the butterfly keyboard disaster?
dhruvkar 7y ago
I switched from a 2012 MBP to Thinkpad P52S with Pop_OS! I had a year with Ubuntu and Lubuntu in the middle. Pop_OS! however is so similar in usability to macOS, that I can't imagine going back to macOS even if the hardware got better. The P52S has two batteries, all major hardware ports (including ethernet) and a SIM card slot. It had a (lower end) Nvidia card. Conveniently Pop_OS! comes bundled with Nvidia drivers. Closest replacement for macOS/MBP I've found.
- mcv 7y ago
  The P52, or now P53, is the one Thinkpad P I haven't considered. The primary appeal of the P73 was that it's the only 17" Thinkpad. If I want a 15" screen, the P1/X1E (they're basically the same machine except for the GPU) seems like a more attractive choice.
fcurzel 7y ago
I got a Xiaomi Notebook Pro, display is not excellent, but great value for the money. 16gb ram, decently new i7, Nvidia 960M, 256gb PCIE M.2 SSD, and an extra M.2 slot! It was 1080€ shipped. Seems to be a good option also for building an hackintosh. I am using a vm for Xcode and such and it does the job.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  Planned to mention this device. I got my first generation 13" Xiaomi laptop for something around 750€. Build is not exactly as sturdy or precise as a MacBook (the aluminum is thinner), but it does look as good. If you want to make a hackintosh the only thing that won't work is the wifi card, which you can replace for about 50€. On Linux everything works perfectly. Unfortunately mine spontaneously stopped booting and charging one day. This issue has not been documented on the english speaking forum (it's not the dead battery issue, which I had and the forum helped me solve by linking me to a replacement part on Aliexpress) and since this device isn't sold anywhere outside of China you can be damn sure that Xiaomi won't care. While nicely many replacement parts can be found on Aliexpress (battery, case, keyboard), board replacement parts or schematics don't seem to be available on the english internet. Maybe if you live or have friends in Shenzen the situation will look different for you. Since OP doesn't seem to be looking for any trouble with repairs I don't think I'd recommend a Xiaomi laptop (I still consider them a good cheap option), but rather something from a business line of a company that is known for good customer support, like Lenovo or Dell (which my new computer, the 5285 tablet is from and I'm fairly happy with).
  - zelo 7y ago
    I had a problem with not charging booting mi notebook pro and managed to fix it by unplugging battery for few minutes. It happened to me twice in 1.5 years of usage. I still recommend this device. Currently I'm forced to use macbook pro 15 with touchbar and it's ergonomy is really awful.
- aembleton 7y ago
  I also have this machine, and am very happy with it. Added 2TB to the other m.2 slot. My only issue is not getting the fingerprint reader to work in Ubuntu.
rpastuszak 7y ago
I’d gladly switch hardware, but software is a bit of a problem: - yes, I need a *nix OS - I need to run Adobe CC (Photoshop, Lightroom) and Sketch I code for iOS occasionally (be it via Unity or XCode). I don’t mind tweaking my OS and making it mine. What I do mind is having to tweak stuff when I don’t have the time to do it, but things are broken. Did anyone manage to work with these tools efficiently here on a linux machine? I always end up coming back.
- mantoto 7y ago
  You should use an example which actually needs a *nix OS. Adobe CC is Definitely not a good example
  - wishinghand 7y ago
    Ok fine, Adobe CC works on other OS's, but deploying for iOS doesn't, and neither does Sketch.
    - Joeri 7y ago
      On windows check out icons8 lunacy for a free sketch alternative. It is not as good, but it might be enough.
  - tomduncalf 7y ago
    I assumed the OP was saying they both need a -nix OS, and need Adobe CC (e.g. if you do front end web development, although with the move away from Adobe stuff for web design (such as Sketch) and the availability of web based tools like Figma and Zeplin, this is a bit less of an issue than it was). Of course, Windows now offers WSL - not sure how good it is but it does mean both platforms can offer -nix Terminal while running all the software you need.
    - rpastuszak 7y ago
      Precisely—I switch between front-end, mobile, backend (Java, Mono, Haskell, etc...), I dabble in game dev and photography—so I depend on quick access to these tools/flexibility quite a lot. I love making my computer mine, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy to drop my work and fix something that should just work. I've gone the hackintosh and/or dual boot route so many times that I finally gave up and I'm generally happy with my current setup. However, I'm sitting here with 2 macs (both hi-spec even in Apple terms), one with a broken keyboard, another one with a neurotic trackpad. I guess the bottomline is: if we want to switch, we need to make sacrifices/change our habits.
kekeblom 7y ago
I have a Lenovo P52 at work. Compared to a Macbook it's not that great. You can't open the lid one-handed as the bottom sticks to the top. The build quality is super flimsy. The touchpad is not nearly as sensitive and accurate as on a MBP. I run Ubuntu on it and currently my Nvidia drivers are not loading correctly so it's running on the intel integrated graphics. When they were, all GUI applications would crash when waking up from sleep. Will have to look into it and figure out if I can find a stable configuration.
amcrouch 7y ago
ThinkPads every day of the week. I have a T430 that I have owned for about 6 years and a new P52 which is my daily work machine. Both running Linux with zero issues. I liked the comment below describing Hotels (Mac) Vs home (ThinkPads). It's true that if you can be bothered to tweak and install some stuff then you end up with something of your own. Your way. Never used Macs as old enough to remember the "no one got sacked for buying IBM" saying and it's true even if it is now Lenovo.
- perlgeek 7y ago
  Seconded. Happy T480 user here.
  - ahnick 7y ago
    Thirded. I got mine 1.5 years ago and I love it as much as the first day I got it. The T480 running Ubuntu really hit a sweet spot for me. I could get 32GB of memory (double the memory of other developer laptop options) and it has hot-swappable batteries for extended coding sessions off plug. I'm not a huge fan of dongles either, so the built-in ports (ethernet, HDMI, MicroSD card slot, etc.) were nice.
- soylentgraham 7y ago
  "Never used macs" maybe you should try them. I'm still using a 2013 MBP, only issue is that I had to finally replace the battery about a year ago. MacBooks used to be good. Can you still buy a 6 year old thinkpad?
  - garmaine 7y ago
    Are you joking or just don’t know? Google “x222 thinkpad” for an example. There’s a whole market for classic thinkpads.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      AFAIK there's even plenty of people who order components from newer thinkpads in order to retrofit them to older thinkpad's chasis, either as a way to upgrade their own machine or just to assemble a better laptop (like in most things in this industry, older interfaces and form factors are very often better).
cranium 7y ago
It saddens me that Apple used to make (almost) perfect laptops – price aside – and it's no longer the case, leaving a bunch of geeks looking for a replacement. In 2017 after searching the market, filtering on required specs and reading reviews, I came to the conclusion that there are no perfect laptop: every time there's a compromise to be made. For me, I had requirements that were previously met in the MBP: good battery life, good processing power, and not too bulky. I didn't really care about camera or touch screen or fingerprint reader. Based on this, I finally found the Dell Precision 5520 which is the workstation version of the Dell XPS 15". Everything was configurable (OS, CPU, GPU, RAM, battery, screen) and with a good build quality and small form factor. Ubuntu 16.04 LTS was an option, meaning drivers were configured and supported by Dell – a relief, after some experiences using Linux on laptops years ago. Now I've changed the OS to Manjaro, added a 2nd RAM stick for a total of 32GB, configured a bit the power settings with `powertop` and I'm really happy with my portable powerhorse lasting >10h when coding. As for the Dell client service, I happened to use it a month ago because my 2 years old battery was now swollen. As I took the 3-year warranty extension "Next business day", I called on Monday and Tuesday the technician was there to change battery and touchpad (that can sometimes break when the battery swells) and it was all. Fast and convenient !
- Jemm 7y ago
  Let’s be fair with our memory of Apple hardware. Apple had huge issues with thermal management that resulted in GPUs failing which of course Apple blamed on the user until they could strong arm a supplier to pay for a recall.
  - stephenr 7y ago
    You mean the same supplier that buyers of Apple, Dell and HP laptops collectively sued? But sure, blame Apple. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2524868/apple--dell--hp-laptop-owners-sue-nvidia-over-faulty-graphics.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2524868/apple--dell--h...
    - computerex 7y ago
q-base 7y ago
Not really giving an alternative. But I have just bought a fully specced Mid 2014 MBP. I already have a T460s which I cannot decide whether to replace with a X1 Carbon or wait for a new scissor-style keyboard for MBP. But as I ran into the issue of not being able to upload React Native Expo Apps to TestFlight I had to buy a used MacBook. I must say that even though I an very fond of the Lenovo keyboards - and they are great. The overall feel of a MacBook is just better. The keyboard pre-butterfly is one of the best ever. The trackpad is another level even though sitting with the T460s and T470s at work, it seemed like their trackpads was on par, but they really are not. The X1 Carbon should be up there, but there is just something about the full experience of the product where MBP wins out. That is at least my experience going a bit back and forth.
ur-whale 7y ago
Left the Apple ecosystem 10 years ago, never looked back. My day to day work is done on a 15 inch LG Gram + Ubutu 18.04. I just love it: super lightweight, fast, rugged (been dropped easyly 10 times, still working fine) The dev env is vastly superior to what I had on my MBP where I constantly found myself struggling with out-of-date software and OSS stuff that just plain doesn't work on the mac.
fsloth 7y ago
I really like my Surface Pro 4 i5 which is a few years old.
Maro 7y ago
I had similar problems. I bought a Razer Blade Stealth 13, but I cannot recommend it. There are hardware bugs, the biggest one being, 1 out of 3 times if you plug/unplug the power, it goes to sleep. Happens on both Win and Linux. It's well known and there's no fix from Razer. My takeaway: other laptops also have bugs; I'm back to using a MBP & I hope the next-gen MBPs are good again.
hardwaresofton 7y ago
System76[0] makes some nice laptops (I have an Oryx Pro and i like it a lot), and there's the Lenovo X1 Extreme[1]. [0]: https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops [1]: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-Extreme-Gen-2/p/22TP2TXX1E2 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-...
- SmirkingRevenge 7y ago
  How is the keyboard on your system76? I've been leaning towards System76 for my next laptop, but its hard to pull the trigger without testing the keyboard. I really need cushier and longer travel keys these days or I get really bad muscle fatigue in my arms and wrists, while working on a laptop keyboard. My 2014 MBP causes me issues only after an hour or two. And their newer keyboards... well, I'm just not even going to go there. The old ibm/lenovo thinkpad keyboards (before chick-lets) were the best. Lenovo is an option too, but I'd rather support a Linux oriented company with Linux-first laptops (I also find it a hard pill to swallow to ever buy a Lenovo again, after all the spyware shenanigans).
  - hardwaresofton 7y ago
    I use a mechanical keyboard so I'm not the person to ask... I did find one review on youtube[0] pretty helpful. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEUuSKL0BQ&feature=youtu.be&t=280 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEUuSKL0BQ&feature=youtu.be...
  - rwha 7y ago
    I have an Oryx Pro and the keypad is good as far as your two requirements. The one thing I had to get used to is that the keys have no curvature (no gradient or tapering around the edges and the tops have zero convexity). My fingertips are either a bit more calloused now from moving between keys or my fingers have worn away the keys' sharp edges. Or a little of both. Oh and if you do get one, and if you think it would be fun to have your keyboard light up certain sections with certain colors for certain alert conditions... it gets old real quick.
- FunnyLookinHat 7y ago
arc_of_descent 7y ago
I'm using a ThinkPad E480, with 2 monitors attached. Lubuntu 19.10. It's my main dev machine running Postgres, VirtualBox, Elixir, Node, etc. Battery is still amazing after 4 months. I've always wanted to buy a MacBook Pro, mostly for music production, but the ThinkPad is a fine beast by itself. For music, I use Studio One 4 on Win 10.
jamesfmilne 7y ago
I like the look of the Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2, but I'd want to know if it is saddled with NVIDIA Optimus GPU switching, and whether that works in CentOS 7.7 or CentOS 8.0 with the NVIDIA drivers. Anyone had any luck with that? It looks like NVIDIA's drivers support PRIME for sharing between integrated and discrete GPUs these days.
- teknopaul 7y ago
  I believe the Optimus thing is broadly speaking fixed in Linux. Intel integrated defo still preferable if you are not gaming or similar.
sofaofthedamned 7y ago
ThinkPad X1 Carbon. It's a beautiful laptop and works well with Fedora after a couple of tweaks. I've got an XPS 13 for work which is nice too but runs windows. Pros and cons are: ThinkPad: Better keyboard by far, more rugged, better bios for Linux that supports normal sleep states XPS: Can charge on either side, better speakers
- lioeters 7y ago
  > works well with Fedora after a couple of tweaks I'm considering this combination of ThinkPad X1 Carbon + Fedora. May I ask what kind of tweaks are necessary/recommended?
  - cipherboy 7y ago
    Make sure you're running an up-to-date kernel [0] because the version shipped didn't support the wifi card shipped in the 7th gen. [0]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1733369 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1733369
    - lioeters 7y ago
      Thanks for the tip!
- awalton 7y ago
  I've been considering buying a Lenovo ThinkPad Extreme X1 Gen 2 as my 2015 MBP has simply outlived its good years, and I can't wait or bet on a first gen Apple MBP replacement, especially not with the extremely poor decision making they've had over the past few years with those keyboards... The biggest turn-off really is the nVidia graphics chip (which I really don't want, but all models seem to have) and gen 9 processor (which is probably why they don't offer the machine without a discrete GPU). The price is also a little on the higher end of what I'd like to spend, but on the flip side of that, Lenovo has an excellent warranty program including battery replacement and accidental damage replacement options - as it's likely the trend of me holding on to laptops for longer periods of time will continue, that's a really nice to have selling point. And sadly, for me, that's as close as I can get to a machine I find acceptable... which is why I haven't pulled the trigger on buying one yet. It feels awful walking into a compromise purchase simply because laptop manufacturers have completely given up on you. So awful I just haven't been able to bring myself to do it, despite my Macbook Pro's decrepit state.
jayalpha 7y ago
Al the options mentioned here are good. Dell XPS ThinkPad Lenovo X1 Carbon I use a Dell XPS with only 8GB RAM. This can be tight at times. I switched to Ubuntu based Bodhi Linux and I am pretty happy about it. The RAM footprint is very very low and the system is very snappy.
maurits 7y ago
I dodged and got a 2015 Macbook Pro this year.
gothy 7y ago
New Surface 3 Laptop combined with WSL2 looks promising. Also, there're rumors on MBP 16" with a fixed(?) keyboard...
coolness 7y ago
Related to this, any thoughts on the surface laptop as an alternative to MBP? Are the trackpad and keyboard good?
- jbd28 7y ago
  Screen and aspect ratio are fantastic. Trackpad and keyboard feel “cheap” compared to my wife’s 2016 MBP but I love the feel of the alcantara fabric while I type
mkorfmann 7y ago
Nothing
ceronman 7y ago
I'm writing this from my recently bought Thinkpad X1C7 after moving from a 2015 MPB. Here are some notes about my experience so far: The hardware is fantastic. Build quality is great, the keyboard is great, the screen is great, the selection of ports is great. It's not cheap though, price is very close to an MBP. The software part is not so great. I tried Windows for a short while, but it's just a disaster. It's slow and inconsistent. I tried WSL, but it feels so alpha for now. So quickly I decided to move Ubuntu. Overall Ubuntu feels so much better than Windows, but the caveat is hardware support. Thinkpads supposedly have very good Linux support, however, the microphone and the fingerprint reader didn't work. After googling a lot I found a way of making the mic work by manually compiling a kernel. No solution for the fingerprint reader yet. And the volume controls don't work properly, there are a few workarounds, but none fixes the issue 100%. Another issue on Linux is that none of the stable web browsers (Firefox, Chrome) have hardware video decoding enabled, so watching YouTube drains your battery. I'm now using a Chromium Beta build which seems to be the only alternative for now. Using Linux requires you to google and apply a ton of small fixes to make some things better. Things like installing TLP to have decent battery life, hacking grub fonts so that they don't appear tiny on the 4k screen and stuff like that. The hardware issues are quite frustrating, but I know those will be resolved at some point. My Thinkpad model is fairly new. The lesson here is: if you want Linux to work out of the box on your hardware, don't get the latest model. On the positive side, I'm really loving Ubuntu and Gnome. I don't have plans to move back to Mac, even if they fix their crappy new keyboards. The fact that you can make Linux work the way you want is very rewarding even if it takes some time to google and hack around. But I understand that not everyone likes to do that.
- rkangel 7y ago
  My advice for people using Linux on a laptop for the first time is to use Fedora - it has the best 'out of the box' support for hardware due to shipping the most recent kernels. With Thinkpads usually everything just works (in my case that included fingerprint reader, keyboard backlight, webcam).
jostmey 7y ago
I'm using a Microsoft surface laptop and I love it! The 3:2 screen ratio makes my 13" screen feel like a 15" laptop without extra bulkiness (the 3:2 screen ratio adds an extra inch of height compared to the 16:9 ratio). Everything else about the laptop is so far amazing It doesn't have a great graphics card, but I don't do much of that anyway
RocketSyntax 7y ago
I have been buying 2015s on ebay since the newer models were introduced >.<
agloeregrets 7y ago
Not sure if this helps but Apple is supposed to offer a new 16 inch model with the old style switches early next year, the latest Catalina beta leaked its thicker design and escape key.
Jemm 7y ago
Lenovo LS340 Gaming. Fantastic machine that has great specs at a good price. Lenovo even managed to avoid filling it with bloatware. It is not aluminium but looks good. No outward signs that it has a gaming design.
udkyo 7y ago
I went from a 2015 MBP to a Gigabyte Aero 15x and put Pop!OS on it. I'm very happy with it - it's a tidy little machine, build quality is good, it has a nice 4K screen, great specs incl a good GPU, all the holes and slots I could ask for, and the battery lasts something like 10hrs (GPU usage destroys this though obviously) If you can live without Mac OS, there are a number of top notch laptops out there calling your name.
mikece 7y ago
I love my Lenovo P50 — except when I have to do iOS work. If not for doing iOS development I would be using Lenovo/Linux As my daily driver.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
I've always been pretty happy with Asus laptops and even their iMac-like "all-in-one" computers. The high-end ones have great quality and the low-end ones still have decent quality. Another key factor for me is that unlike Apple, Asus offers good video cards!
- krembo 7y ago
  I'm with Asus ZenBook UX461 bought more than a year ago. While it's not a super-cool brand like Macs or Surfaces (my previous laptop), the ZenBook is 1/3 of the price and monsterly-packed with hardware superior to them (i7-8550 1.88GHz, 16GB of RAM, 512GB SSD and very light and good touch screen). Did my homework, you can't beat that, and I've tried all the famous brands before.
  - jen_h 7y ago
    My UX303 has served me well for four years now, dropped several times, lugged it around through all climes & my only major issue right now is that it’s nearly impossible to find a good power adapter for it and the screen hinge is loose. Negatives: Required a lot of customization to get the trackpad right on Ubuntu so I’ve got that to look forward when I upgrade, I hate glossy screens, and it can act wonky if exposed to extreme humidity changes. It’s fast, it’s light, it doesn’t typically get too hot, I’ve treated it like garbage and it still delivers —- I’m starting to look around for a new one and will probably stick with the line, but want something with a matte screen this time for less annoying outside work, they’ve got a few models available.
mduerksen 7y ago
Any serious contender should have an answer to the MBPs extraordinary touchpad. It is key to working without a mouse, and therefore being truly mobile and comfortable at the same time. So please post at least some information for this aspect, which is one of the things the OP explicitly listed. Some examples: - Would you be able to do some solid Photoshop/Sketch/Gimp/Inkscape/Blender work with the touchpad/knob of your proposed MBP-replacement? - Can you comfortably and efficiently organize your photos/files&folders with it?
- dboreham 7y ago
  I find that a touchscreen (which most non-Apple laptops have) compensates to some degree for the inferior touchpad.
- derekp7 7y ago
  That's why I like my Thinkpad X1 Yoga. Depending on the operation, I will use the touchpad, the trackpoint, or the touchscreen.
- faizshah 7y ago
  Has anyone tried magic touchpad on linux? Theres a driver but I wonder if its as smooth as a MBP trackpad on linux.
- alextingle 7y ago
  I can't stand track/touchpads - I just turn them off. Give me a good trackpoint any day.
  - jbergknoff 7y ago
    There are dozens of us! I've tried to get comfortable with touchpads, but I always find them frustrating (yes, even MBP touchpads). For instance, selecting text with them is a disaster. Trackpoint or external mouse for me.
  - mduerksen 7y ago
    I don't necessarily care if it's a point or pad. I need it to get the jobs done that I mentioned above. Can you with your laptop, and if so, which is it? I had a Dell Precision M4300 for quite some time. Good laptop, decent trackpoint - but it was not good enough for design work: My main problem was offsetting the cursor a tiny number of pixels, which needed some starting force on the trackpoint, which lead to more pixels than I needed. Some trackpoint laptop might have figured this out by now. But if not, I'm not interested.
paulsmal 7y ago
Dell XPS 15 9570 4k with elementaryOS 5.0 (macOS like DE on top of Ubuntu 18.04) + libinput-gestures worked for me. Decent touchpad, keyboard's like 2015 MacBook Pro. I replaced wifi/Bluetooth model with one from Intel and downvolted cpu (i7)
kgarten 7y ago
just switched to a Matebook Pro X with Arch Linux and could not be happier. Slick, long battery life (around 10 hours with browser and neovim + latex for writing). 3:2 screen perfect for writing everything working (except of the finger print reader). The webcam is at a strange place, yet you can be sure it is off and not recording you, I just put the laptop on a book and it looks fine for telcos. Dell and Lenovo are a no go for me. Compared to Dell/Lenovo, Huawei didn't put spyware on their computers yet :) If you want a decent linux laptop, I also use a Pruism Librem 15 ... Great, the best if you are looking for a secure machine. It's my private one. Huawei for work.
- kgarten 7y ago
  Just wondering why I got downrated. Lenovo and Dell had documented spyware on their computers. We also know cisco and other American companies worked closely with the NSA and put backdoors in their software and hardware. Yes, Huawei is close to the Chinese government and there are definitely issues with that. Yes, they had spyware on some phones. Still no documented case of spyware on their computers :)
FpUser 7y ago
As a laptop I have HP omen 15", i7 6 Cores, 32GB Ram, nVidia 1070 GPU and 2 SSDs (500GB and 1TB). I paid $1800 Canadian Pesos for it. Has Windows and Linux Mint on it. Works like a charm. I can only imagine what would Mac with the same power cost. Sure it is not as thin as Mac but what do I care.
iamsb 7y ago
If you are mostly working from one location (home-office or office), I recommend building a PC with linux running on it. Far more powerful and much lesser cost. You can use any cheap laptop for computing on the go, preferably one which is SSD only, and it fairly lightweight.
lukaszkups 7y ago
Just couple examples from me: Asus Zenbook + Linux Lenovo Carbon + Linux Dell XPS + Linux Surface Book 2 + Windows + WSL
pbhowmic 7y ago
there isn't one for me. I am primarily a back-end dev but I also develop for iOS.
seancork 7y ago
I have went through a lot of differnt laptops, mainly had a lot of Dell laptops but last year I decided to buy a Thinkpad T430 on ebay for close to notting and it's the best laptop I have ever had.
lazylizard 7y ago
2 cents. I use any computer that has a keyboard,terminal, network n ssh. Windows is the most terrible os, yes.
albertzeyer 7y ago
I'm also interested in that and collected a list recently: * System 76 Oryx Pro (aluminium, official Linux support, US shipping, flaky hardware, poor battery) * Prostar Clevo P960 (rebadge of System 76 Oryx Pro) * Huawei MateBook X Pro (aluminium, good Linux support) * Razer laptops (aluminium, no good Linux support) * Chuwi LapBook Plus (aluminium, good Linux support, poor battery, poor CPU, cheap) * Xiaomi Mi Notebook Pro (aluminium, good Linux support) * Purism Librem 13 There was a HN thread recently about Huawei MateBook X Pro: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21170765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21170765 And also one about System 76: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21216195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21216195
- gbtw 7y ago
  Isn't it the other way around? The 76 Oryx is a rebaged Clevo BTO laptop?
  - albertzeyer 7y ago
    Ah yes, you are right.
villgax 7y ago
Razer Blade 15/17
indymike 7y ago
I switched to a Dell XPS 15. Didn't think the convertible form factor would matter... but touch and stylus are really useful. Oh, and Dell's take on a slim keyboard is much better. Linux just works and Windows is serviceable.
timwaagh 7y ago
My current Acer laptop has always been reliable. So are other windows/pc manufacturers like Lenovo, Toshiba, basically any brand. Reliable laptops are a commodity. I am surprised an Apple product would not be reliable. I'd be hesitant to recommend Dell. They crash. But that might be because i only encounter them as corporate laptops, which get reused a lot and carry additional risks like the corporate 'onboarding' software. I'd recommend just sticking with windows and not overwriting it with ubuntu unless you have some very specific needs. Some important desktop applications like photoshop do not work on ubuntu and WSL takes care of almost everything ubuntu can do.
coldtea 7y ago
>However, Apple has demonstrated their inability to be reliable. I bought my MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up from its 3rd repair. Well, I've had 5 or so MBs and MBPs since 2003 and hardly ever needed a repair (I had to repair an iMac once). So what happened to one machine, which could have been part of a faulty production run is not necessarily indicative. In general, the fact the MBPs have higher satisfaction rates, and command higher second-hand prices and maintain them longer should be an indicator that (again, in general) they are more reliable rather than less. That said, if they do fail (which they still can), Apple is hardly the faster company to give you a replacement machine, or to fix your old one. And in countries without official Apple Stores even more so.
- TacticalTable 7y ago
  I don't think OP is referring to Apple's permanent inability to be reliable, but rather the current MBP series. That keyboard is atrocious, and there is no alternative to it. Maybe the 2020 MBP design refresh will fix the issues, but there could also be another set of issues that emerge after a few months. Apple has broken their user's trust.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >but rather the current MBP series. That keyboard is atrocious, and there is no alternative to it. To that I agree. I simply resorted to using an external keyboard with the laptop 90% of the time (at home or at work) -- until I can upgrade in 1-2 years in a new model with hopefully improved keyboard.
jen_h 7y ago
Surprised not to see more mentions of the Asus Zenbook here — I switched from a MBP to a Zenbook running Ubuntu four years ago, and haven’t looked back...sleek, light, fast, beefy specs AND it’s endured my abuse pretty well. It’s starting to finally show its age, I switched to a Dell for a week after my adapter died, but went straight back to it once I was able. 13” screen and I still preferred it over the Dell (speed & comfort may have been an issue, too). Probably will be replacing it with a similar model (matte screen, though, this time, for sure).
- nabusman 7y ago
  I bought a Zenbook a year ago but the trackpad was pretty much unusable. Though Ubuntu 16.04 worked with minor tweaks.
  - jen_h 7y ago
    This saved my sanity: synclient PalmDetect=1 && synclient PalmMinWidth=4 && synclient PalmMinZ=60
bob1029 7y ago
I am looking forward to the launch of the new Surface products next week. I will very likely be replacing my 2013 MBP with one of these options. Specifically, I am looking hard at the 15" laptop right now because AMD and apparent ease of repair. Worst case scenario, I might just get a cloud Mac for iOS development concerns and VNC/SSH into it from whatever machine. It will actually be a bit of a shock for me to go full-time Windows 10, as I alternate between OSX/WIN10 at a rate of about 30/70 on a daily basis. I really have no strong allegiance either way. Both operating systems are incredible, but I will have to award some bonus points to Apple for that extra bump in UX quality. You can almost constantly feel as if OSX and the hardware were designed by the same engineer when you use things like their touchpad. One other thing I would say is that if Apple released a clone of this exact machine I have today (the late 2013 13" retina MBP) with modern CPU/Memory/GPU/SSD and maybe USB-C, I would be stoked and would likely purchase it immediately. The changes made to the newest models are dealbreakers for me - Particularly the touchpad & keyboard (AKA the most important aspects).
pmorici 7y ago
Check out the Panasonic CF-53 / CF-54 they are slim and rugged. Esp. if you are rough on your equipment. All this ultra thin stuff if to fragile if you actually need to move it around frequently.
fancyfish 7y ago
The Dell XPS 15 is a remarkable piece of hardware and at least on par with the MBP. A nice smooth trackpad, crystal clear display that plays well with Linux drivers, and a reliable keyboard. I, too, was fed up with Apple’s rising MBP prices and flimsy design. I need a functional and long-lasting dev machine. The XPS (and probably Precision) series checked the boxes. It has ports when I need them. Easy to take apart and upgrade. Form, but not at the cost of function.
- willis936 7y ago
  I got an XPS 15 with a 6 core CPU (boost up to 4 GHz) last year for (I think) $1000. Get baseline memory and storage, slap a 1 TB samsung SSD and 32 GB of RAM, and perform thermal mods and suddenly you have a serious piece of hardware for $1600. I don’t think Apple cares about making computers. They care about making money and their method of doing that is presenting the appearance of good computers.
alexandercrohde 7y ago
Aside from all the bitterness about ports, touch-bars, lock-in, blah-blah, I have a sincere question. Does anybody know a comparably DURABLE competitor? I have 99% confidence I could knock my macbook air off my bed (while on) 100 times in a row with 0 consequences. I've never had a key come off, had the screen flicker, had a battery problem, had an overheat. I'd be curious if anybody thinks there's any other laptop comparably reliable.
- alextingle 7y ago
  Thinkpads.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  ThinkPads have a good reputation in that regard. Beyond that there are rugged PCs like Toughbooks. You can literally throw them through the window and they won't mind (we actually tested that). You probably don't need that though. These things are heavy, expensive, and generally underspecced.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  ThinkPads tends to be pretty solid. When they fall, it's not uncommon there's a dent in a wooden floor, but no scratch on the laptop itself...
  - Deinos 7y ago
    Dropped my x230t down a flight of stairs...slammed into the wall at the bottom...only damage was a very slight expansion in the seam of the external battery. Still in amazing shape using the same battery almost 5 years since the drop. Great little laptop!
- swozey 7y ago
  I'm not sure about this anymore, my 2016 MBP has gotten some gnarly body dents all over it and it lives in my backpack and on my work desk. I've never actually dropped it. The 2016+'s seem incredibly soft. You're likely talking about the internals which on mine seem ok. Except my right speaker makes crackle sounds 100% of the time. It's so distracting that the few times I've brought it on trips and used it to watch movies I've gone out of my way to find speakers and an aux cable. My 2015 definitely seemed like a work horse.
fortran77 7y ago
Windows 10 on good hardware is very, very nice. My advice is "don't fight windows". I've seen many people try to make Windows like Unix. Don't. Use Windows versions of things, not things compiled under Cygwin or MinGW. Learn to use Powershell and Powershell scripting language. I do development (C/C++/CUDA/Erlang/Python) all day long on Windows 10 and in addition use desktop applications like Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Cloud. No problems whatsoever. My main machine -- a Surface Book -- has had no issues. It sleeps, hibernates, manages power, perfectly. The keyboard feels good and is dirt tolerant. (I also have a lightweight travel notebook -- a lenovo yoga -- that "just works" though it's a little underpowered for major development work)
- Tijdreiziger 7y ago
  "Learn to use Powershell and Powershell scripting language." YMMV. I tried PS for a few years and just couldn't get into it. Installed WSL as soon as that came out and haven't touched PS since.
  - kerng 7y ago
    You can also run PowerShell on Linux now.
  - vips7L 7y ago
    I think this depends on whether you embrace the philosophy of "everything is an object" or not. For me its been leagues easier to learn than bash and 20 other non-portable utilities. It feels like a regular programming language.
- manigandham 7y ago
  WSL 2.0 is a full linux kernel powered by HyperV and is very fast with minimal overhead. Useful for using all those Linux tools directly on the same filesystem.
  - sz4kerto 7y ago
    Interestingly it's running _besides_ Windows, not under it.
berbec 7y ago
I would suggest a Lenovo T490. It has the build quality you've come to expect from IBM, usb-A ports, Thunderbolt 3, standard nvme storage, 32GB ram available and a low-power 1080p option that allows for over 10 hours of browsing.
- jpalomaki 7y ago
  You can actually go all the way to 48GB. 16GB soldered + 32GB dimm.
nixpulvis 7y ago
My thinkpad x1 carbon is running Linux very well (better than Windows I might add). Battery is great, keyboard is acceptable, and it's significantly lighter than my old MacBooks. I've grown to like the plastic Lenovo uses.
- izolate 7y ago
  Definitely not the X1 Carbon 7th Gen. While I love my X1C7, it runs Linux horribly. Speakers, microphone, HDMI issues galore.
city41 7y ago
I’m very excited about Google's Pixelbook line and ChromeOS. With Crostini (Linux integration) it has the potential to become my preferred OS for doing dev work. Crostini is still in beta and does have a ways to go yet. The Pixelbook itself is excellent hardware with a top notch screen, trackpad and keyboard.
swozey 7y ago
I'll be buying the new 13" XPS 2-n-1 pretty soon. It finally has a thunderbolt 3 port so I can plug in an egpu if I ever feel like I need an upgrade for gaming. I am worried about the thermals, the i7 seems like it will likely throttle quite a bit. I absolutely love the form factor though. I've been hoping for 5 years that Apple would release a convertible/2-n-1 style laptop and blow the Surface out of the water.
remote_phone 7y ago
I’m looking at Vaio. I had a Sony Vaio about 10 years ago and I still love it. I have given up on buying a MBP because of Touchbar and the keyboard.
skeptical900067 7y ago
Thinkpad x220,IPS model, running xubuntu. Display is lacking, so I wouldn't use it for illustration work. Otherwise, it has been months since I opened my mbp.
ykevinator 7y ago
Huawei xmate pro running Ubuntu is a dream
cloudking 7y ago
Not a laptop specific comment, but from a software perspective Windows 10 with WSL is a pretty awesome Dev environment. You get a full Linux subsystem, with access to the Windows filesystem and environment for testing.
mmwelt 7y ago
I've been using an Asus ZenBook for a while and am very satisfied with it! They aren't very cheap, but Asus seems pretty innovative with their laptops. And the brushed metal finish is also quite nice. https://www.asus.com/au/Laptops/ZenBook-Series-Home/ https://www.asus.com/au/Laptops/ZenBook-Series-Home/ Not associated with Asus in any way...
crazygringo 7y ago
> I bought my MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up from its 3rd repair. I’ve grown tired of this repair routine. That sucks, but I think you've just had bad luck. The quality, longetivity, and service of Apple hardware through Apple stores isn't perfect, but it's been consistently better than the alternatives for me and everyone else I know. Sorry your experience has been bad. I'm curious what you've had to get repaired?
eggsyntax 7y ago
I switched a few years ago from MBP to ThinkPads running Ubuntu (with Gnome). It's been an overall improvement for sure, and there are very few things I miss (iTerm2 is the big one; there's no Linux terminal emulator that has all the advanced features I loved in iTerm2 like incremental search/highlight/copy. Gnome terminal with tmux is...acceptable). And of course it's much cheaper; on both computers (P51 and X1 Extreme) I paid about 2/3 what I would have paid for a MBP. The big downside is battery life. On both the ThinkPads I've had, the battery life has been roughly 4-6 hours, despite my attempts to improve it with Powertop and/or TLP, and despite keeping the external graphics card shut down. I find that pretty painful; I like to work outside most of the day when the weather's decent, and now I have to be meticulous about plugging in whenever I go inside for a bit. If it weren't for having it charge up over lunch, there's no way it would make it through my day. Some folks seem to get better battery life with some ThinkPads running Linux, but I haven't been able to pull it off. In fairness, I do a fair amount of CPU-heavy work -- but I was doing the same kind of work on MBP, and the battery life was much better.
- kingkongjaffa 7y ago
  This is such a strange story - my thinkpad T490 lasts all day, my MBP lasts about 4 hours. (granted it's a 2012 model but still). Battery life isn't one of the things Mac books have ever had going for them in my experience.
  - sharms 7y ago
    I have the same experience: My T470 always goes at least 10 hours, and the battery estimate shows 16+ from a full charge. My work Macbook might get 5 on a good day?
  - Klonoar 7y ago
    My MBP2015 averages 8 hours of battery still. They’re incredible.
fbnlsr 7y ago
I've pondered quite a great deal about this very same question. I'm the owner of a 2015 MacBook Air, and I'll probably won't buy another MacBook when mine dies. What I'll definitely do is get a Thinkpad Carbon X1 and put elementary OS on it. The Thinkpad line has been around for ages and are praised upon. It's fairly linux-friendly, and elementary OS is a great distro, stable enough to work on, and its polish and attention to detail resonates with a MacOS user. I've been using elementary OS on a VM in my gaming PC and it's been working flawlessly. Really like this distro.
dangoor 7y ago
I've been using Macs since a 12" Powerbook around 2004 and think I've only taken a Mac in once over those 15 years. My current Mac is a 15" MBP from earlier this year as well. One precaution I took is to get a silicone keyboard cover. I've had no issues with it. Though I haven't had a problem with the keyboard (likely thanks to the latest generation of it and my silicone cover), I know that lots of people have. Apple deserves criticism for that, but at least it sounds like the next MBP is going to have a new keyboard design. Hardware aside, I don't want to run Windows or Linux. Apple would have to screw up even worse than this keyboard thing to get me to switch.
mister_hn 7y ago
Basically any latest laptop from Lenovo, Dell or Asus. You have also the advantage that you can put Windows or Linux on it
ducklingslicks 7y ago
anyone possibly tldr'ed this thread and has just the usable answers to the original question?
kerng 7y ago
I have both MBP and Surface Laptop 2. I personally like the Suface much better. And most importantly the entire Office stack on Windows is superior to anything on Mac or Google things. The keyboard on Surface Laptop is also superior, and I never liked the touchpad. Big touch screen fan! What feels less nice is the screen attachment, it seems less stable. The MBP has a nicer mechanism for locking in I think.
goatherders 7y ago
I sold my MacBook and went to an XPS 13 about 3 years ago. I have enjoyed the machine and Windows just fine. I dont know anything about configs and launchers and Ubuntu - I just use the machine to run my company and spend 99% of my time in Excel, Chrome, and Mailbird. The Dell is an excellent machine except the battery life is terrible.
rjplatte 7y ago
Thinkpad X-series is the alternative with a more durable build and a comparable pointing device. I would recommend any Thinkpad, but the X series is absolutely fantastic.
sandreas 7y ago
I like this question because I'm in a similar situation with my MacBook Pro 2015 despite having bought a MBP 2019, because i was not convinced of the quality... Unfortunately i did not find a real alternative for now... My thoughts about alternatives are: # Software / OS: - Hackintosh - I don't want to bug around with hackish scripts or repeating the whole procedure on upgrades, so I refuse to do this. - Elementary OS - Linux with UI similar to MacOS (at least kind of) including Apps for the most common Tasks like mail, calendar, etc. - Manjaro Linux - Rising star of the distros, presentations i saw looked pretty good. Based on archlinux - so there is some things to learn ;) - Ubuntu / Xubuntu / Mint - well, i know them but working with them for mee feels by far not as good as with MacOS. # Hardware: - Lenovo Thinkpad T4X0S - Good value, great linux support, business quality - Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon - Pretty expensive but high end and man what a display - CLEVO N141CU (https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/business-and-office-solutions/2059/clevo-n141cu-intel-core-10th-comet-lake-metal-chassis-intel-uhd-graphics-thunderbolt-3 https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/b...) - a colleague recommended this manufacturer, i don't have any clue if this is a good value thing, but it looks very similar to a MBP with all the connectors you can think of
- tristanperry 7y ago
  I have a Clevo N131WU and whilst Clevo's are good for the price, the poor battery life and loud fans (without their Windows-only 'Control Centre' software) would prevent me buying one again. It's definitely not a MBP competitor.
  - sandreas 7y ago
    Cool, thank you for this feedback. Are you aware of NBFC (https://github.com/hirschmann/nbfc https://github.com/hirschmann/nbfc)? Not that this is relevant to Clevo beeing no competitor but perhaps you can take control of your fan - afaik it is known to work on linux systems.
    - tristanperry 7y ago
      I'll check that out thanks. I had heard that a few other fan controllers don't work but NBFC looks promising.
zaro 7y ago
I am using Xiaomi Notebook Pro 13, and I am very happy with it. I think for running Linux it's better choice than MBP.
mattlondon 7y ago
I have a Dell Precision 5520 running linux that I got when I rejected the 2018 MBP touchbar that I returned to our tech team in disgust (keyboard sucks) Some observations of the 5520: - con: really really stupid web cam position: it is at the bottom left of the screen so in any video calls it is basically looking up your nose and if you are typing there are GIANT fingers on screen obscuring your face. - pro&con: feels well built (metal frame), but it is bulky and feels very heavy - pro: keyboard is nice to type on - con: trackpad is nice but sometimes the clicks get "stuck" and you end up inadvertently "dragging" things (e.g. tabs) when you try to click. This might be drivers - who knows. - pro: It has a little button on the side you can press which shows the rough battery charge level (5 LEDs light up for 20/40/60/80/100%) - con: there is no "scoop" to make opening the lid easy, so you need to use two hands. - con: fan is loud and seems to be on almost all the time It is ok but I have not been particularly pleased with it - the webcam position, the trackpad, and the sheer bulk are the killers. I wont opt for one of these again - probably go for a thinkpad carbon next.
- IshKebab 7y ago
  > It has a little button on the side you can press which shows the rough battery charge level Not sure if you're aware, but this great feature was copied directly from Apple, who then dropped it for no good reason.
  - mattlondon 7y ago
    I remember seeing it on Panasonic (I think?) laptops many moons ago. Don't really care who did it first, it is useful (dare I say it, but perhaps a "pro" feature? very useful when traveling around and going in and out of a bag.... shame it is so heavy!)
  - shantly 7y ago
    What's it... for? If my MacBook's closed and it hasn't been, like, several days, the answer to "how much charge does it have?" is "about what it had when you closed it".
rvanmil 7y ago
Not an answer to your question, but I’m of the opinion that Apple should have a product recall for all butterfly keyboard equipped MacBooks. My own MBP (late 2018) also just went in for its 3rd repair to the keyboard, it’s ridiculous. I absolutely love everything about the MacBook and Apple ecosystem but god the keyboards are such an embarrassment. All anecdotal of course but at the office many of our MacBooks have keyboard issues. And quite some people I know also have issues with the keyboard. Just from my observations the problem is gigantic and I wonder if Apple knows this; almost everyone I talked to about the issue is not willing to have it repaired and just live with the shitty keyboard, because they don’t want to wait 2+ weeks for Apple to repair it. I’m nowhere near the point of switching to something else because I don’t want Windows or Linux, but I cannot wait for Apple to get their shit together with their keyboards.
Freaken 7y ago
I might be an outlier in the dev community, but I’m on my second Alienware 15" laptop running Ubuntu + Xfce and I really love it. It’s fast (my current laptop has an i9 in it), reliable, offers multiple possibilities for extensions and the new M form factor does pretty good when it comes to bulkiness. Of course they are bigger than an XPS 13, but if you are like me and mostly work from office and home, it’s not really an issue. Ho and it’s gaming-ready too (got a gtx2080 in my current laptop). My previous laptop before that was the first gen of retina MBP (2012) and the only thing I miss from it is the almost double battery life I had over the Alienware.
- Topgamer7 7y ago
  Nope, you aren't alone. I run an Alienware 15r3. Manjaro + i3. I even went so far as to patch the Linux kernel to get the headset mic to work. Although I've been wanting an ultra ultra thin laptop lately.
- FpUser 7y ago
  Al my laptops are gaming type. They can work properly without overheating/throttling
cdata 7y ago
Similar story to OP. The MBP I acquired in 2017 has been undergoing rapid disintegration while the 2013 model it replaced is still working just fine. After stressing over the problem that nothing seemed comparable spec-wise, System 76 released their Adder WS and after reading some testimonials from users online I made the leap back to Linux. So far, I am very pleased with the choice. Here is what I love about it: - Amazing 4K OLED display configured with pixel scaling a la Retina out of the box - Suspend / resume "just works" every time (very different from my past Linux user experiences years ago) - Connecting an external display "just works" like my MBP - Pop OS is a well-designed, pretty Ubuntu variant that doesn't get in the way - I'm really productive on it (I haven't wasted any time trying to get things to work) - Very high-end hardware all around Things I don't love about it: - Battery life is atrocious - The keyboard has a numpad so home row is offset to the left - It is rather big (though not gigantic) - It is rather ugly (though not hideous) - Huge power brick with a short cable I can't speak for long-term durability. I guess I will get back to you in a few years.
- FunnyLookinHat 7y ago
  > - The keyboard has a numpad so home row is offset to the left I'm personally waiting for one of their more powerful laptops to have a centered keyboard. The current models that feature centered keyboards offer 17W TDP CPUs, which just aren't quite enough for my taste.
- whycombagator 7y ago
  How is the chassis/build quality? IIRC they are just sager/<insert-third-party> shells I've read varying reports of the build quality and it's one of the reasons I've not bothered with System 76 - I fear it will be inferior to a Dell/Lenovo product.
  - kls 7y ago
    They are built off of the Clevo based systems, I personally switched from a MBP about 3 years ago. In my opinion the build quality is better than anything Dell offers, I went thru 3 high end Dell's in that time, and switched to a Sagar about 1 year ago. Now I cannot compare it to the higher end Lenovo models as I have not owned one, but my wife has had several mid level models from her work and I have been less than impressed with the issues she has had with them. Personally I would purchase another system based off of the Clevo designs and I feel it's build quality is on par with the MBP's that I used to own.
megadeth 7y ago
T480 with Linux
simplyinfinity 7y ago
I'm super happy with my HP envy 13' with AMD Ryzen & vega graphics.
jxm262 7y ago
Adding my 2 cents on this since I've recently migrated from my old macbook 2015 to a System76 Gazelle (linux/Pop_OS). My comments are coming from the perspective of a web developer / trader (i make websites and trade futures+equities for a living) - with a Linux preference (i dislike Windows). - Dell XPS_13 - Thinkpad (x1 carbon) - Purism - System76 (looked through all their laptpp offerings) I chose Sys76 because I really wanted better hardware (I wanted _alot_ of RAM), which admittedly isn't a normal requirement for most users. - Dell XPS 13 - totally anectodal, but I have a few friends who really dislike this laptop because of lots of little issues. Then again, I also know people who love it. My friend lent me his old one and I kept having issues with drivers and the OS just randomly crashing... so I passed on it - Thinkpad X1-carbon - build quality feels awesome. I really like the trackpoint thingy, but the trackpad itself I thought was horrible. Also dislike the keyboard in general. I've read a bunch of mostly positive reviews though, so I might actually buy one to try in the future. - Purism - seemed ok, but after looking at the hardware I could get on the Sys76 I liked the latter better. - Sys76 Gazelle - Opted for this one since the hardware for the price seemed much better than the alternatives. Despite many people complaining that they're marked up Clevo's, I still found them the best when comparing price/hardware. For about $2,000 USD, I was able to get what I wanted - 6GB GTX 1660 (cuda) - 64 gb ram - 1tb nvme Compared to the macbook, after a few months use, I honestly miss the mac. There's awesome things to this laptop, but at the end of the day linux just doesn't play nice with everything compared to macs. Slow lagging in general (mac is much more 'snappy') when doing basic things like opening and dragging window panes. Random weird behavior when plugging in peripherals (plugging hdmi will shift some of my fn keys around, wtf?). The keyboard is awesome, the trackpad is ok, but NOTHING compares to the mac's trackpad. The mac display blows the Gazelle's display out of the water. I can't use some apps - Sketch, etc.. on this since it's linux. Battery life is so bad it's laughable. IMHO, there is no feasible alternative, just a series of tradeoffs only your personal needs can decide. I really wish apple would offer a true "pro" user option - let me upgrade my hardware. Weight/size be damned, I basically want a desktop I can carry in my bookbag.
notadev 7y ago
Like someone else suggested, the Dell XPS 13 is a good replacement as it's sleek and light. As for the OS, I would recommend ElementaryOS. It is a Debian/Ubuntu derivative, but it's aesthetic is specifically targeted to Linux users who are coming from the Mac experience.
a-dub 7y ago
Lenovo P1 and X1 look like they'd make great Linux laptops. Looking into an 8c P1 now. Also, great keyboards.
justinweiss 7y ago
I wanted to dip back into Linux, and found a ThinkPad x230t for around $70. I'm amazed by how much I like it. I'm running mostly vanilla Gnome on Arch. Every piece of hardware just works. You can take the entire thing apart with just a normal screwdriver. Tablet mode has been great for reading papers and articles on the couch. It's a common enough linux machine that there are tons of setup instructions and suggestions written specifically for it. With an SSD and 8-16GB RAM, it's plenty fast. It's bulkier. the screen is non-retina and a worse aspect ratio. The fan is noisier. Turns out none of these things bother me anywhere close to what I expected. Hardware-wise, the only annoying thing has been the terrible speakers. Then again, I'm usually on headphones. I miss USB-C ports and USB-C charging, but not too badly. On the other hand, I had almost forgotten what a good laptop keyboard felt like, and after getting used to the trackpoint, I like it a lot. I still use a Mac for work, but as a lot of my favorite Mac software has gone subscription-only or subscription-preferred, I've gradually moved more toward open-source options: password-store from 1Password, org-agenda from OmniFocus, etc. So the change wasn't as big or as hard as I was expecting. Decoupling from iCloud will definitely be a thing (photos, iTunes Match, etc.), but I'll figure it out. edit: Forgot to mention matte screen! Don't know why all the manufacturers thought glossy was the way to go, but it's nice not having to stare at a reflection of the room around me all the time.
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akudha 7y ago
Has anyone used this one? https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Toughbook-i5-7300U-Windows-Warranty/dp/B07PXCY7S9/ https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Toughbook-i5-7300U-Windows-... This series looks rugged, haven't heard it mentioned here (as far as I can remember)
haolez 7y ago
I’m using a Chromebook. For programming tasks, I’ve been using web IDEs. When I need something from Windows, I fire up an instance of it in a cloud provider and access it via RDP. No problems so far :)
drclau 7y ago
@ryanmccullagh, can you please specify what the problem was? I have a MBP w/ Touch Bar, and the battery just started to swell some half a year after running out of the 2 years (European) warranty. However, I contacted Apple, they directed me to an authorised service and I got the top case with battery (it's glued in), keyboard and trackpad, and the bottom plate replaced free of charge. No questions asked. Note that my machine is not part of the recent battery recall. It would have taken 4 days (they say up to 5 days), however I opted to pay a small fee and take the notebook home and bring it back in when the replacement parts arrived. Took 2-3h to get everything done after the parts arrived. All things considered, I'm quite pleased with Apple service, even though they don't have an official presence here, except for authorised services.
- ryanmccullagh 7y ago
  3 things broke. First it was a dead pixel on the screen, second was a reproducible kernel panic (using any video chat application would panic the kernel.). The last and hopefully final issue was the keyboard issue (double keys, and weird issues with the key not pressing sometimes). Each time I’ve had an issue, Apple has honored the terms of their warranty. However, I value my time and frankly don’t like going to the Apple Store every 3 months and doing the run around.
  - drclau 7y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I did not expect 3 completely different issues to occur on a single machine in such a short time interval after purchase. I understand your dissatisfaction.
snek 7y ago
ThinkPad X1 with a good Linux OS is my favourite laptop ever. I've gotten almost 15hrs of battery from it, the trackpad is amazing, and the performance is top notch.
techslave 7y ago
first you have to realize you want mac OS. then the options are clear. get a used prior model MBP.
NightlyDev 7y ago
If you want something that works, and with little downtime, go for a Dell XPS laptop. Way better than every other manufacturer I can think of. Next business day on-site repair is usually included, so if something goes wrong then it will be fixed very quickly as a technician will be sent to you with the necessary parts. I love it when companies actually stands behind their products.
adchari 7y ago
Thinkpad or Dell XPS with a nice Linux distro is the ultimate developer combo
iamthe 7y ago
Seems like incredibly bad luck. I run an IT department with hundreds of macbooks, and they're at least as reliable as standard Lenovos -- and thanks to macos tend to work longer without software trouble. I also have personally owned several, and have faced no problems. Could be that I have incredibly good luck :) As further anecdote, I've ran Linux on my computers for almost 2 decades now, and I'm really enjoying macbooks and imacs as a replacement for them.
justanothersys 7y ago
Actually the new Google Pixelbook Go looks like it could be a 2019 version of the old plastic MacBooks, which were beautifully functional.
flanker 7y ago
I was looking for something like that a few months back, took a gamble on LG Gram. I have been using MBP(work) and Gram(home) side by side for past 3 months. Given the price and performance Gram for me hits it out of the park. Cherry on top is that it's just ~900gms, with USB and HDMI, also upgradable ram.
totheDude 7y ago
I thought this was about hardware. IMHO there are alternatives, but none is chaper than the MBP. Dell hardware is crap, too many complaints online. I would like Lenovo P1. More expensive than MBP…
totheDude 7y ago
I thought this was about hardware. IMHO there are alternatives, but none is chaper than the MBP. Dell hardware is crap, too many complaints online. I would like Lenovo P1. More expensive than MBP…
ratsbane 7y ago
Macbook Pro is still my primary laptop, but for the last year or so I've also been carrying and using a Pixelbook. Except for the smaller screen, it's almost evolved to the point that I'd be comfortable with it as a primary laptop. The recent addition of Linux support is very nice and I'm looking forward to its continuing evolution: https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/9031351?hl=en https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/9031351?hl=en Perhaps the new Pixelbook Go will tilt the scales for me: https://store.google.com/product/pixelbook_go https://store.google.com/product/pixelbook_go
- c256 7y ago
  My workhorse early 2011 15” mbp finally died earlier this year. For its final 12-15 months I had been looking for a good replacement, as the various mbp issues (primarily the keyboard) had prevented me from replacing it with a new mbp. Eventually I pulled the trigger on a “big” chromebook, the Lenovo Yoga C630, with an i5-U processor and 8Gb of ram, as a trial period device (I had toyed around with a couple sub-$300 chromebooks before), and then the mbp died (pink screen, boot-loops), and I’ve been using the chromebook ever since. It’s pretty good, and steadily improving - at this point, it runs ChromeOS, android apps, and containerized linux simultaneously. My only regret about the thing is that I accidentally got the model without the backlit keyboard. As a device, it’s a little larger than I would like, but it pays for that with a quite nice screen (I have the FHD version; the 4K display model gives up too much battery life for my taste). I still occasionally look at the Dell XPS13 or the Thinkpad X1 in stores, but it’s hard for me to justify spending 4* what the C630 cost me for either of those devices, especially since the XPS13 seems to have some hardware quality problems and the Thinkpad loses the portability that I would like from the XPS13. I had hopes for the Pixelbook Go, but they were quickly dashed by the leaks then killed by the launch - it’s expensive and underpowered for a chromebook — costs more for less oomph than the chromebook I already have. I also had hopes for a new mbp with a new (old, really) keyboard, but that just doesn’t seem likely, so I’m not holding my breath.
baby 7y ago
What about the last microsoft surface? I find microsoft products more and more attractive. One of the big problem is airdrop + other macos only tools like keynote. Its hard to quit those.
_of 7y ago
I switched from a MBP 2017 model with touch bar to a Thinkpad X1 Carbon (6 gen). I installed Ubuntu Linux and I'm happy. I do all my work on this laptop. But I've spent quite a lot of time getting the hardware to play nicely, upgrading bios + a lot of Linux config tweaking.
qubex 7y ago
Quite honestly, and entirely coincidentally, I recently saw un boxings and first hands-on videos with the Google Pixelbook Go, and I couldn’t help but think “the i7 version with the UHD display would be fantastic as a Linux laptop”.
tikumo 7y ago
Lenovo X1 Carbon, long battery time, nice resolution.. And one of the nicest keyboards i've used.
rch 7y ago
I'm planning on picking up a Purism Librem 15 in the near future; probably January. I've seen a few System 76 laptops at tech events around Boulder/Denver and they seem solid as well.
- jbotz 7y ago
  As I understand it, with Purism, if you want to "pick it up in January" you'd better order it now! People have waited more than 3 months for theirs.
  - rch 7y ago
    Ah thanks, that's really good to know!
randomsearch 7y ago
If you use email a lot and don’t want to use gmail etc in the browser, your only choice is Windows. I’ve tried all the GUI mail clients on Linux, and they are all either buggy as hell, don’t support most standards, or hellish UX. Given Windows is much much worse than OS X for tech stuff, there isn’t really an alternative. Macs have gotten worse, less reliable, design is tanking, software becoming buggy, but it’s still much better than the alternatives. So stick with the MBP and buy a stress ball and punch bags to cope.
- foopdoopfoop 7y ago
  Why haven't you tried a CLI client? Also, Office 2016 seems to be fairly well-support on any number of those wine-based compatibility layers.
  - randomsearch 7y ago
    CLI clients aren't really fit for purpose if you're doing management-level email.
- ttz 7y ago
  Check out Mailspring.
  - randomsearch 7y ago
    Yes, I did, thanks. I agree it was one of the more appealing clients, but IIRC it was demanding on my old laptop and slow, as well as being a bit buggy.
joeevans1000 7y ago
My next laptop will not be a MacBook. Sadly. I've used macs for decades, but it's obvious they no longer listen to or care about the needs of developers. I think musicians will soon follow. They will discover by losing it the social value of having been the go to choice for those users.
tbronchain 7y ago
I have been facing the same issue and eventually went for the Thinkpad X1 Extreme - and I'm quite surprised to not seeing it mentioned here. I was afraid of the 15" being too big but as I'm not using much external screens anymore, this is the perfect size - the laptop is also very light and portable, given it's a 15"... The GeForce graphic card is awesome. So are the 2x pcie and additional RAM slots. Bonus for the mate screen. Small minus to the battery life, who averages to 5-8hrs (max). Otherwise it's an amazing, durable, efficient machine that does the job, at probably replaces well a MBP. Also, Windows 10 isn't perfect but I'm finding it pretty good after all. I use HyperV Linux VMs for dev and the overhead is totally acceptable.
dguaraglia 7y ago
I've been using a Matebook X Pro for... I guess almost a year now. I only have good things to say about it. Other than the touchpad (Apple's are just superior) and the stupid positioning of the webcam (if you use it) everything else works great, it's a great looking laptop with good battery life and super portable.
ksec 7y ago
1. I hope Surface from Microsoft will succeed. For those that live through the real IE era, i.e you are 35+ or 40s, I cant believe I am recommanding Microsoft. 2. I hope Apple fails, it seems obvious Tim Cook is lacking the awful tasing medicine Steve Jobs once had. Unfortunately it wont happen. iOS developers will need a Mac anyway, and along with those Professionals that uses MacBook, the MacBook will continue to do well and Apple will look at the sales Data and say everything is fine. ( Apple's definition of Professional is very Narrow, and programmers dont fit into that category ) We are close to 5 years mark since the butterfly Keyboard was fist introduced on MacBook in early 2015.
- fooey 7y ago
  Rumor is the next macbooks are dropping the butterfly keyboards https://www.techradar.com/news/all-macbooks-will-ditch-the-butterfly-keyboard-by-mid-2020-analyst-claims https://www.techradar.com/news/all-macbooks-will-ditch-the-b...
  - ksec 7y ago
    The problem is it give them another chance to reinvent the keyboard. And judging from recent Mac innovation their track record aren't very good. From Keyboard, Overly large trackpad that is susceptible to false input, Touch Bar, Display Cable failure, to the use of USB / Thunderbolt as Power Input which is causing more power failure than ever.
quantgenius 7y ago
Just switched to a Thinkpad P1 Gen 2 which is almost the same machine as a X1 Extreme Gen 2. You can get upto 64 GB of user-upgradeable RAM and 2 replaceable SSDs in a package approx the same weight but 1-2 mm thicker than a 15 inch Macbook Pro. It may not fit the current fashion but to me it's a really aesthetically attractive package. Windows 10 Pro with WSL is MUCH better than I expected it to be. Download Conemu, Terminus or similar as a terminal and you may as well be running Linux. Download VxXsrcv and you can even run the Linux version of your IDE. I run the Linux versions Emacs, IntelliJ and Pycharm, not the Windows versions. Hardware wise, the Trackpad is worse but I don't really miss it. Keyboard is much better. Lots of ports. Great screen, though most of my time is spent connected to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. Multi-monitor support is good. Only annoyance is that if the screens sleep all your applications get moved to whatever monitor you set as primary but this is a minor annoyance. Ubuntu runs great but since I can ssh to multiple machines running Linux already, and I can run WSL, I really don't feel the need for Linux on the machine itself. Less thermal throttling. Battery life is decent. I get a real 8 hours in battery save mode even with IntelliJ or Pycharm running, so long as I've set things up in the IDE to save battery by not continuously re-indexing things. Most Thinkpads are rated Milspec 1 so the keyboard isn't going to die with the first spec of dust and the machine will survive minor mistreatment. Windows with WSL basically gives me everything I need. I bought a Macbook the week Apple released OSX and have been an Apple fanboy for years but at this point for what I do, as someone doing a fair bit of programming, it's an inferior machine. I've also tried the various Dell XPS machines. They frankly aren't really comparable to Thinkpads in how well they are built or fit and finish. The XPS 15 is a direct competitor to the P1 Gen2 (or X1 Extreme) and in my opinion if you use both for a week, there is no comparison. I have friends who have also switched to Thinkpads and/or Dell XPS machines so I was able to compare directly before I bought them.
InTheArena 7y ago
The biggest thing to tempt me, and the reason I may walk away from Mac is native docker support. Docker for Mac is just a horrific hack, and a battery killer. Hyper kit needs a lot of work. Is docker on Windows reasonable with battery?
kutenai 7y ago
Is there a feasible alternative? Simply put, no. I'll stick with my mac(s) for the foreseeable future. I have 2 MacPros (2011 cheese graters) and 2 mac pros, 2014 and 2017. I read most of the complaints (about Macs) here, and most of them are thin reasons to "not" use a mac. - I literally NEVER turn my MBP's off. Just sleep them. This works flawlessly 99.5% (estimated) of the time. I've never seen another notebook with Windows (especially) or Linux that could handle that. Nobody here claims that they do (so far) -- I read one complaint about power usage on a Linux pad.. so I assume this is still the case. Sleep mode sucks on most non-mac, not OSX machines - Trackpad. Nothing touches the Mac trackpad. Nothing. - App availability I have so many QUALITY apps I've gotten on mac that just have no equivalents in Linux. Seriously, a TON, and more all the time. You can't even compare Pixelmator to Gimp, and the list of apps that are much better on OSX goes on and on. - No Sweat OS Linux is great if you want to configure the shit out of your system. OSX is great if you want to NOT THINK MUCH about your system and just work. I prefer to spend my time working. So, it's not all roses, we all hear the issues, keyboards have issues, apple does not play nice with NVidia (sucks having a MacPro right now), hardware IS more expensive... but, don't get fooled by the "Grass is greener on the other side" -- you'll have to keep convincing yourself it was a good mood, every single day. Good luck with that
theonething 7y ago
I enjoy developing on Linux, but my problem is Apple has sucked me into it's ecosystem tentacles and it's hard to get out. It's really nice to have my reminders, calendar, notifications, messaging, etc synced between my iPhone and MBP. And unlike any else out there that I can tell, it just works with very little setup and fiddling. Has anyone encountered a similar experience and can suggest remedies?
petilon 7y ago
Samsung ATIV Book 9 series is the best laptop I've used. Better industrial design than Apple. Fantastic "retina" display. Fantastic backlit keyboard. Unfortunately it is hard to find now. The 12" version is still available on Amazon but it is underpowered for development purposes. You want the 13" version for development purposes. The second best is the new Surface Laptop. Unfortunately its screen is not quite as highres as the Samsung.
EnderMB 7y ago
I've sung it's praises for years on here, and I'll do it again. The Surface Book is the best laptop I've owned. The build quality is better than the MBP, and despite owning it for years it's as fast as it was when I first bought it. I've had zero issues with it, and I use it almost daily. It's also not a bad Linux laptop, if that's your thing. I find myself booting into Debian less and less nowadays, but if you want to mainly use Linux it's possible. My sole gripe with it is that the trackpad isn't as good as the MBP, but it's very close.
stringParameter 7y ago
I was in the same position, and last year (2018) bought a ThinkPad T480S - bought on a student discount and stuck an extra drive in the m.2 slot for the WWAN card (used a Toshiba RC-100). I upgraded to 3-year next-business-day for £60. It's an absolute delight to work on. It's repairable, has ports, lovely 1440p display, it's upgradable, it has a good battery life. The added advantage is I seem to have absorbed a good deal of knowledge about computers and Unix since switching. I didn't realise how ignorant I was when I was blindly strolling the paths of Apple's walled garden.
fraytormenta 7y ago
I run with LG Gram 14" with Ubuntu Mate - happy!
robabby 7y ago
I just recently tried out a 2019 Razer Blade 15", and I love it. Working with WSL in Windows 10 is very satisfying, or you can remove Windows and opt for Ubuntu or whatever Linux you prefer. The Razer Blade hardware and build quality is top-notch, and I can undersatnd why it was called the gamer's Macbook Pro.
admay 7y ago
I'm not going to say much about OS's. I will say Elementary OS looks a bit like Mac OS. It's Ubuntu based, so you can get support all over the place. Not my cup of tea but I did start with it. It was nice looking and easy to use. As for hardware. I always suggest Lenovo X, T, or P series laptops. I use a P52s. You can find one with just about whatever hardware specs you're looking for. Range from about $500 (USD) to $3000 on the high end, they are friendly to most budgets. I've never had a hardware issue myself, however, that is anecdotal. I've had an X220 for 6 years now that I use as an old game system emulator. It's never had an issue. Plus the keyboards are dope
rezmeplease 7y ago
Razer Blade or Blade stealth If you're looking for something as reliable as 2015 or macbook pro's that don't have butterfly keyboards then maybe this isn't a good choice. But specwise it's even better (display and internals) and the trackpad is probably best in all windows computers (they're basically trying to mimic macbooks). However, like I said before, they aren't exactly the most reliable laptops, but when they work, they work REALLY well
JOLYJOKER 7y ago
Máquina bien construida. macOS es genial. Portátil súper delgado y de 15 ". El teclado está bien para mí. El rendimiento ha sido excelente para mí, no lento pero supongo que se debe a macOS. Ram y SSD que se están soldando no es un problema para mí, ¿necesita actualizar? Venda su MBP y compre el nuevo (los dispositivos Apple conservan mucho valor)
pmarreck 7y ago
My MBP is a couple years old and runs like a champ. You know, with every product released, someone's invariably going to be the outlier... you know, the guy who buys a lemon, then gets another lemon, then gets ANOTHER lemon. Each lemon probability is small, but even with 3 in a row there's still a chance. Is there a systematic (not just anecdotal) issue with Apple quality? Evidence?
jpkeisala 7y ago
I have Huawei Matebook with Windows. Very good laptop. But I had to buy Macbook Pro as well when I got project with iOS. So, now I have 2 newish laptops. I think Macbook is still better when I code anything else than .NET. Thanks to the terminal. Matebook in hardware is better, really good screen. Also it looks good. After all it is Macbook Air knock off.
Rocafella888 7y ago
I'd say the only alternative is another Mac. An iMac is a fantastic work tool (I use this for work), but if you need portability, go for any of the Mac laptops. I had the 13 inch MBP (without Touch Bar) and it was the best combination of size, performance and power. Only problem was I needed the dedicated video card so I had to upgrade to the 15 inch which has the touch bar that I hate. I don't recommend upgrading to Catalina unless you are sure you won't use 32 bit apps. I have Sid Meier's Pirates, Civilization VI and SimCity4 Deluxe and now they don't work. I have to wait for the developers to release a patch, if they ever do. But yeah, I did the research, tried out different laptops (Dell XPS) and none compare to even the lowest level Mac laptop. The fan noise, the display, the touch panel, the OS, all are inferior experiences to a Mac. And, if you want to use Windows, only Macs have Bootcamp built-in, allowing you to boot into other operating systems. Its kind of sad, but there just isn't any viable competitor out there.

longtom 7y ago

I also moved to Windows 10 and X1 Carbon (6th Gen) after using Apple products all my life and I've never looked back. That being said, my X1 also went three times to repair. I guess people have simply unlearnt how to manufacture reliable products due to the immense complexity that is involved by now, combined with a planned obsolescence mentality. It is shitty wherever you go; it's just a bit more shitty with Apple currently IMO, and Apple deserves some flak for their provocative product policy, e.g. selling the MacBook Air with the same crappy low-res screen up until 2017 which is still available in some stores.

chillee 7y ago
IMO, if you're buying a higher end laptop it's worth shelling out for the on site warranty/accident protection. They'll send a technician to your location (typically within the week) and replace whatever parts needed for free. So you'll have essentially 0 time without your laptop. It's been excellent (used it twice: fixed a broken keycap, and a spilled drink), and gives me a ton of peace of mind.
- andrewnicolalde 7y ago
  Huge +1 for this. On-site support has saved my XPS (and by extension me) a few times now. If you’re going to go for a Dell laptop I’d get ProSupport or better.
- Joeri 7y ago
  Lenovo lets you buy up to 5 years of onsite support for less than the cost of applecare. I am in my 4th year on my T460p. Had to use it once, a few months ago when the SSD died. I found out then that whether someone actually comes out the next business day depends on the technician assigned and the region. In my case they sent me a replacement drive (arrived next business day) and expected me to install it myself. Not a problem, T series thinkpads are designed to be easy to get into, but still slightly disappointing. Still, I got the cost of the onsite back with just that one incident, so I was satisfied with the service. I am very satisfied with that thinkpad. Excellent linux support, good performance, quiet under sustained load, best laptop keyboard I’ve ever used, and extremely durable.
- pm7 7y ago
  > They'll send a technician to your location (typically within the week) and replace whatever parts needed for free. My Dell Latitude had included "next business day" 3 years warranty. I used it twice (to get motherboard and display replaced) and they sent technician next working day. There were a bit more failures then I would expect, but warranty was great and I happily bought 2 more years (5 years total) for equivalent of about 200 USD plus tax.
  - tekknik 7y ago
    This is interesting, if an Apple laptop failed that often then passive aggressive posts would be made on HN explaining how it’s needed repair too much and the owner would like to switch to something else and would like recommendations on what to buy.
    - pm7 7y ago
      The second "failure" was about small flaws on display (mostly visible on white background). I didn't actually expect them to replace it, but they did. I've also heard from friends that E7*70 had a bit higher failure rate than usual. It still seems (subjectively) to be much lower than Apple's issue with keyboard. Most importantly, they fixed it almost immediately. Today, I don't expect things to not break. I'm still annoyed when they do, but more important is what happens after failure, how long (and how much effort) does it take to get things working again.
dade_ 7y ago
Overall, I love my X1, but I have had so many problems that they finally replaced it with a brand new machine. Premier support is mandatory for Lenovo IMO, in spite of the problems, I never once had an issue getting someone onsite to repair it and they assigned a local case manager to sort out the replacement. On the Lenovo forum I read a lot of stories from people with similar problems, but with basic warranty they reported getting a run around, being without a machine for weeks at a time with it went back and forth to the depot. A YMMV..

tasuki 7y ago

+1 for ThinkPads, they just work. The XPS has super annoying fans which change their speed randomly all the time (though it's possible to override: https://github.com/TomFreudenberg/dell-bios-fan-control https://github.com/TomFreudenberg/dell-bios-fan-control). Btw, Xfce is a desktop environment while Ubuntu is a distribution. Perhaps you meant to write you're on Xfce instead of Gnome?

mherrmann 7y ago
Yeah, sure. I was on Ubuntu, now I'm on Debian + Xfce. It's better because it's faster and does not have some of the bugs I mentioned in the article I linked to.
- garmaine 7y ago
  Sure, but Xubuntu is a thing, so your phrasing is very unclear.
ratiolat 7y ago
Thinkpads come in different flavours, and the have very different quality. Either get a T-series, or X-series (X series is basically smaller version of T). Or if it's a used one, the later A-series are good as well (A series means AMD instead of Intel). The old A - series were crap. Nowadays T and X series have AMD also (if model ends with 5, it's AMD). T and X series have MIL certification. For example there's also X1 Extreme (costs around 3000€), but quality wise it's a lot worse than T or X series, because it does not have the MIL certificate.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tasuki 7y ago
  Yes, when I wrote ThinkPad I meant T or X series! First time I hear the X1 Extreme is worse quality wise - I was thinking it'd be my next machine... like in a couple of years. Do you have more info?
  - ratiolat 7y ago
    Two examples: 1. No drainage system (like in X and T series) 2. Screen hinge becomes loose in less than a year (anecdata) Edit: in order to remove battery, you have to remove the whole bottom cover.
    - tasuki 7y ago
      Thanks for the info. Nothing worse than loose hinges!
    - theatrus2 7y ago
      So, just the same as a MBP in that regard. I use X1Carbons as a daily Linux driver after MBP and am very happy with them.
- gjm11 7y ago
  Or, if you need the power and don't mind the size/weight and price, P-series.
- jlg23 7y ago
  Lenovo claims it has the usyal MIL certications, see Features under: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/ThinkPad-X1-Extreme/p/22TP2TXX1E1 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/Thi...
  - ratiolat 7y ago
    My bad. It reality it has the MIL-STD-810G cert. Sorry for causing confusion.
beefield 7y ago
Just do not make the mistake of assuming that the lenovo's next business day warranty means next business day. My current understanding is that they try their best to give a call to you next day but what comes to actual repair, there is no guarantee whatsoever when that is going to happen (some time ago my latop was in a brick-like state for more than 10 days and lenovo seems to be perfectly happy with their performance.)

gigatexal 7y ago

Give me the hotel then because I want to spend my time doing work not having to do laundry or cut the lawn.

Symbiote 7y ago
Stretching this analogy even further: With Linux, we have a choice of over 20 different housemaids and lawn-cutting robots, though choosing between them is difficult at first. Most lawn robots can also sweep patios or shovel snow, so if you move to a different climate you can use the same tools.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  > Most lawn robots can also sweep patios or shovel > snow, so if you move to a different climate you > can use the same tools. I thought that the UNIX was was to one job, well.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    No, that's some philosophy from 40 years ago regarding the bare-bones UNIX userland (tools like cat, tar, grep, bc, etc). It never applied to other things, like Emacs, and was never a core tenet for server and GUI applications, or frameworks...
  - Jare 7y ago
    The robot's job is to move back & forth the tool it is holding in its arms as it sweeps across the surface it is on. Give it (pipe) a shovel or a mop or a crass cutting thing and there you go.
  - jmmcd 7y ago
    Yes, but the point of Unix is that sweeping leaves and sweeping snow are the same task, when viewed in the right way.
  - laretluval 7y ago
    That is the official Unix philosophy, but a glance at just about any man page will suggest that it's never been followed.
    - ghettoimp 7y ago
      Yup. My copy of "sudo" has 23 documented command line switches, 15 documented environment variables that influence various behaviors, plugins(!), and can also use a configuration file for setting up paths, debugging tools, etc. Do one thing well, indeed.
- fauigerzigerk 7y ago
  And all the robots run Linux as well, so you better start customising those first in case the package maintainer doesn't share your conviction that lawns and carpets are not the same thing in every respect :)
- mcv 7y ago
  I'd like to have a house set up and ready with a decent selection of pre-configured robots to take care of my needs, with an easy interface to reconfigure them or add some new ones. Or are we still talking about Linux?
  - eropple 7y ago
    TBH, at this point I think you just described Fedora. I’ve been using it everyday for three years and the total set of customizations I’ve needed to make, outside of my developer stuff, has been...remapping a few keys, really. The absolute worst, edge-case-est thing I’ve hit: I did have to install a COPR to install (with zero configuration) Bumblebee to be able to completely disable my discrete GPU to save battery life when I was on vacation, and multi-monitor with Bumblebee sucks, so when I got back I uninstalled Bumblebee and Nouveau took back over.
levesque 7y ago
I've spent more time fighting with brew and the third party package manages than I have with issues in Ubuntu.
- gigatexal 7y ago
  You might have had some exotic edge cases then because I’ve never run into this situation. MacOS is unix-y enough to compile your own binaries like a John Siracusa does. And if you’re a dev the Mac is still a much better platform for getting paid than any other platform (until ElementaryOS takes off...). I use a number of really cool apps to do things I would get likely for free on Linux like magnet for window management (though that’s gotten a lot better in Catalina). And... even though the current laptops have terrible keyboards my 2013 MacBook Pro is a bit rough around the edges it’s solid and fast and in my experience none of my pc laptops ever made it that far. Side note: is there a Linux distribution or desktop environment that does what the Mac does with the scaling. Native res is 1440p but renders at half that to effectively give a 2x sharpen on image quality?
  - chendragon 7y ago
    Most Linuxes attempt to detect a HiDPI screen (hi resolution basically) nowadays but you cannot do fractional scaling as easily as you could on a Mac, especially on Wayland. You can only do 2x or 1x.
    - curioussavage 7y ago
      Latest version of gnome supports fractional scaling
  - saghm 7y ago
    > I use a number of really cool apps to do things I would get likely for free on Linux like magnet for window management I'm not sure I understand your point here; is the fact that you need to use third-party apps for these things being described as a selling point, or is the argument just that you can still find solutions for things that might initially seem like they're missing?
asjw 7y ago
The hotel "because I don't want to do laundry" is the worst choice immaginabile If you can afford hotel prices to actually live inside a nice one (more than 12 sq meters), you can afford 5 people doing your laundry and other chores at your house

Aperocky 7y ago

Serious question: how’s the transition trackpad wise

readingnews 7y ago
I moved from a MBP to a Dell XPS 13. This transition made me appreciate just how nice the trackpad on the mac is. I am no apple fanboy by any means, after my MBP died out of warranty. They wanted $700 to fix... but after some use, the XPS trackpad is a real aggravation machine. In laymen terms, it is like the MBP knows when I am typing and reduces the sensitivity of the trackpad. On the Dell, it surely seems like the Dell knows when I am typing and cranks the sensitivity of the trackpad up 10X. I consciously have to move my hands up to type, which becomes a real problem when the laptop is in your lap and not on a desk. I have used Linux since 1992, literally, but I still find the mac os X more cohesive and fluid. Do not get me wrong, I love linux, but on the XPS I felt like I still have to futz with the OS too much. "hey, I just went to work, I am on the OTHER wifi now mr Dell XPS laptop. Hello? HELLO? OK, gotta reboot and turn the wifi on and off three times to connect". This is with the Dell supplied ubuntu fully updated. Ugh.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  There is some tool I've forgotten that disables the touchpad when the keyboard is in use. You can set the timeout period, I think that my sweetspot was 1.5 seconds. If you can't find it then let me know, I'll google it.
  - levesque 7y ago
    It's still rather clumsy though, if you go too fast from typing to touchpad you have to wait for the delay. If you set the delay to be too quick, you will get wrong clicks. It's more a question of palm detection, and the Linux touchpad drivers are not great at this.
- btrettel 7y ago
  I started having the exact same problem when I bought my latest Dell laptop. This was infuriating at first, but slowly I got better at avoiding the problem. (Still somewhat infuriating at times.) Periodically I'll disable the trackpad entirely via xinput if it screws up my typing too much.
- fourthark 7y ago
  I think disabling the touchpad when typing is a macOS feature which Ubuntu has tried and failed to emulate. I have the same problem big time on a ThinkPad X1 Carbon (which otherwise I love). Very unnatural wrist posture to avoid errant clicks!

dotancohen 7y ago

> I compare the experience to living in a hotel vs. living at home This is very apt. If we've all grown out of our parents' basements when we left /., then let me share my own analogy. When SSHing into different servers I used to bring my .vimrc and .bashrc along with me, because how could you live without them? Likewise for switching computers, you bring along your config files. When a new job required me to be at lots of different computers, and SSH into lots of different servers, I also made a conscious effort to reduce my dependency on customization. That's when I developed my significantOther vs girlInEveryPort modes of operation. In significantOther mode of operation, I invest the time to customize the environment so that it is perfect for _me_. This is like looking for a woman to marry. It takes time, and the first woman (or config setting) has no more chance of being the best as does the twentyith. We invest much time finding on what we _can_ compromise, and on when we cannot. In girlInEveryPort mode of operation, I have little problem using vanilla VIM and standard Bash. I might stumble a bit and touch her in ways she doesn't like, but overall we get the job done and nothing is broken afterwards. The perfect balance for me was to discover that I could have both modes of operation.

tjpnz 7y ago
Why the downvotes?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- exikyut 7y ago
  Perhaps the mild cognitive dissonance caused by the choice of reference points. Possibly also cross-domain projection of various strongly held views.
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    Some very vocal, very opinionated people are on a crusade to remove the idea that man with woman, or woman with man, is the default configuration for sex. They actively downvote any comments that suggest that M-F is "normal" all over the internet, from Reddit to StackOverflow. I would say it's been happening for a while but the past few months have been very extreme.
    - Clubber 7y ago
      It could simply be a single person with multiple accounts trying to manipulate the overarching discussions through downvotes. The downvoting patterns sometimes raise an eyebrow for me too. That type of behavior is termed "Call-out culture," or "Cancel culture." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-out_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-out_culture
    - sbuk 7y ago
      Nope. It’s about objectification.
      - dotancohen 7y ago
        Hi, I'm the OP of this "controversal" opinion. There is nothing objectifying anybody here. I really do not see how anyone is getting at that. In what way have I made anybody an "object"? With all the respect in the world, I understand what you are crusading for. But you are on a witch hunt, and actively making people your enemies who would otherwise support your cause.
        radmarshallb 7y ago
        Your failure to understand how your comment could be considered "objectifying" is your own. The reasoning has been explained to you. Saying those who would point it out to you are on a "witch hunt" reveals a serious lack of reflection on your part.
        sbuk 7y ago
        What are you wittering on about? I was merely pointing out that the criticism for your, frankly crass comments has nothing to do with gender or orientation. Don’t shoot the messenger...
- coldtea 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritans
- seized 7y ago
  Because it's an analogy for user preference files in drunken frat boy language... And no one here is a drunk frat boy. So it just comes off as tasteless and creepy.
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    I do not see any drunken frat boy language. I see an analogy. An analogy that makes sense to me.
    - radmarshallb 7y ago
      What people are saying is that you should use an analogy that does not involve touching women in ways they do not want to be. Regardless of whether it "makes sense" to you, outwardly it feels degrading—especially that specific sentence that multiple people have pointed out to you.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  Another poster mentioned that is was because I used a female example in a relationship, instead of a gender-neutral example. There are very vocal people who have very strong opinions that all hypothetical relationships much be gender-neutral, to them it is horrible to "assume" that if one partner is male then the other is female.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    No, it's because you drafted sex talk into a non-sex topic.
xfr 7y ago
This is straight up misogynistic and is a great example of why women are driven away from our industry, because of language like this.
- lojongCommand 7y ago
  No its not.. and people are starting to get tired of statements like this all over the forums.
- computerex 7y ago
  While it is a very unusual metaphor, I don't see how it is misogyny or derogatory against women. This is wildly off-topic but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
  - ljm 7y ago
    It’s archaic. The analogy isn’t well served by using women and sex as an example, and I don’t really see why someone needs to hear about touching women in ways they don’t like when all they’re talking about is a shell configuration. This probably would have gone down well back in the 60s, but we’ve hopefully since moved on from comparing women to objects, and comparing how we treat women to how we treat inanimate things. Personally, I downvoted because the author’s attitude to women has absolutely nothing to do with discussing good alternatives to laptops.
    - asjw 7y ago
      Because men and women still marry and still chose each other as partners? And the more men and women wait for that moment to chose the right person, the more the probability of making the right choice increases. As long as I support women rights, I don't see what's wrong if an eterosexual man talks about choosing the right woman for him. Should men not chose carefully their partners?
  - xfr 7y ago
    Yes it is a strange metaphor but language like “I might stumble a bit and touch her in ways she doesn't like” is rapey and comparing women to config files is just weird. The whole comment feels like it is objectifying women
dekhn 7y ago
Hi, a little feedback from a wise person who has been on the internet for a while: while you probably thought this was a clever analogy, you would do a lot better not saying things like "I might stumble a bit and touch her in ways she doesn't like". try to avoid gender-specific analogies in computing. You may think you are being clever, but you're really just making yourself look like a cad (And not everybody will give you this feedback directly. They will just stop talking to you).
- asjw 7y ago
  I don't think I'm wise honestly, but I know I'm not a rapist and am not overly sensitive There are 7.7 billions people in the world, even if every American chose to not talk to me, there will still be 7.4 billion people to talk to. Fortunately most of us don't live in the US and people are not creepy weirdos who stop talking to you for stupid reasons.
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    Some very vocal, very opinionated people are on a crusade to remove the idea that man with woman, or woman with man, is the default configuration for sex. They actively downvote any comments that suggest that M-F is "normal" all over the internet, from Reddit to StackOverflow. I would say it's been happening for a while but the past few months have been very extreme.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  Thank you for the feedback. What is the problem with gender-specific analogies in computing? If I'm making an analogy with relationships, and I am a man, why wouldn't I use a female for the other half?
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    It's not "gender specific" analogies, so much, it's "extended sexual metaphors" that are off-putting.
  - dang 7y ago

cytzol 7y ago

> In a hotel (=on Mac), everything is stylish and cared for, but you have very little freedom to change things. I've heard this over and over — that Macs are locked-down, uncustomisable machines — and I don't agree with it at all. I use replacements for almost all the built-in apps. I use a custom launcher. My editor config Git repo is approaching ten years old, and my shell config Git repo is almost eight. There are standard interfaces to per-application Preferences and keyboard shortcuts. When I sit down to use someone else's Mac, I have no idea how to use it! What changes am I missing? The only thing I can think of is that I can't use a different window manager or a different kernel, but I'm fine with those already.

reubenmorais 7y ago
> The only thing I can think of is that I can't use a different window manager There are some third-party macOS window managers out there. Personally I use Amethyst. I'm sure they're not as powerful as Linux WMs can be, but it suits my tiling needs when I have an external monitor plugged in.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
robert_foss 7y ago
There's no real package manager. You can't rebuild your kernel. You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well.
- new_realist 7y ago
  “You can’t rebuild your kernel.” Are you kidding me? Apple supports the hardware it ships on day one, then provides free updates until the device is obsolete. If you must rebuild Apple’s OSS kernel, you can follow the instructions here: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/build/build.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...
  - omnifischer 7y ago
    what means device is obsolete? Do you mean i3 cannot handle general browsing tasks? Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
    - derefr 7y ago
      It means "until the third-party developers in the OS's application ecosystem have changed their definition of 'state of the art' to include the use of enough new layers of bloat that old devices can no longer run the newest [versions of] apps." An obsolete laptop is the same as an obsolete phone: it's one where it chugs when opening Spotify, or Slack, or any other "nobody ever bothered to optimize this" app that everyone uses anyway. Or, to put that another way: you can certainly retouch photos in GIMP, or even in Paint Shop Pro 7 on Windows XP. But what if you want to use seam-carving in your photo-retouching? PSP7 ain't got that. Once you know that your use-case dictates a modern version of some memory-hogging software, well, that constraint dictates what kind of computer is "obsolete" or not for you.
  - robert_foss 7y ago
    What about hardware Apple doesn't ship? Or support that is buggy? What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal).
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      > What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal). My Unity projects work out of the box.
  - rocky1138 7y ago
    > the device is obsolete. One of my biggest complaints about Apple is the difference between what I consider to be obsolete and what they do.
- aspenmayer 7y ago
  As to your last point regarding incompatible hardware, you can use tools like this to patch the installer. http://dosdude1.com/catalina/ http://dosdude1.com/catalina/
- skipants 7y ago
  > There's no real package manager I like Homebrew -- is it not adequate enough for your needs?
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    There’s also macports, tends to have more packages, updated more often. Maybe what he meant was batteries aren’t included?
- journalctl 7y ago
  I don’t... I don’t want to rebuild my kernel? I want my goddamn computer to compute. I want to get my work done, then maybe order Chipotle. At least the Mac sleeps properly when I close the lid, unlike every Linux laptop I’ve ever had.
  - Joeri 7y ago
    My Thinkpad T460p on ubuntu sleeps properly when I close the lid, every time, which is better than Windows managed on the same machine. I am running a stock kernel though.
    - journalctl 7y ago
      I’m glad it works for you. It doesn’t work for me, on top of the myriad other Linux things that don’t work for me that, although well within my capability to fix, I would rather not have to deal with.
      - whatthefaggot 7y ago
        seems to be out of your "capability" considering it's generally a small and easy problem to script away. and rebuilding your kernel? seriously? are you building an LFS system???
    - pfortuny 7y ago
      Right, yours does. OK. All macs do.
      - glitchcrab 7y ago
        Well done - a function works well on a restricted set of hardware which the OS has been tested thoroughly against. How do you expect that same thing to be achieved with the hundreds of potential laptops out there which could run Linux?
        earenndil 7y ago
- wool_gather 7y ago
  "no real package manager" [MacPorts has existed nearly as long as the public OS][0] and was even hosted by Apple until a few years ago. (And there's the App Store, which is effectively a non-technically-inclined-user's "package manager".) [0]:https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Cool stuff I used to do when I had time to spare back in the 90's at the university shared flat. I don't want to do any of that any more. Either it works out of the box, or it doesn't.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  > Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. The latest version of MacOS supports hardware from 2012. High Sierra (released 2 years ago) supports hardware from 2009 and 2010, and very little if any software released today won't run on it.
- masukomi 7y ago
  speaking as someone with a long history of old macs, I'm very comfortable in saying this is a straw-man argument that doesn't matter BECAUSE every single mac I have ever had that they've dropped support for has been EFFING PAINFUL to use long before they dropped support. I've been using Macs since the Mac SE. Apple maintains support for their devices long after any reasonable person that wasn't dirt poor would have replaced them. Any poor person in the US would probably be better off going to the library and using the crappy free computers there, because macs that old are ridiculously slow.
- derefr 7y ago
  > There's no real package manager. There's no "real package manager" on any of the BSDs; package managers are a Linux-ism. BSDs (like Darwin) have base-systems, developed and released as a whole; and then, separately, userlands, delivered through some kind of ports system. Critically, nothing in the base system is ever dependent on the userland; the system always works fine with zero userland ports installed. Under such a paradigm, there's absolutely no difference between a first-party ports ecosystem and a third-party one. > You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. Personally, I like the era of disposable computers. Most computers have got hardly anything in them these days, anyway; just an SoC and a battery. What would you upgrade? It'd be like upgrading the parts in an electric toothbrush. In both cases, there's just a few parts, and they all wear out at about the same rate, such that when the device is worn out, it's all worn out. Just get a new one, and recycle the old one for scrap (i.e. what Apple does when you use their trade-in program.)
FussyZeus 7y ago
People always criticize the lack of customization too as though it's an inherent flaw, like things must be customizable or not be good and I disagree. I love having my Windows Desktop to tinker on, but my Macbook is my workhorse. I don't care if I can customize it to any great degree. I've paid a lot of money for that machine and I expect it to work, without troubleshooting, and without fiddling. I akin it more to going to a very nice restaurant and spending $150+ for a dinner for two: I don't want to give the chef my recipe for some mediocre meal, I want the chef's recipe because it's likely going to be amazing. Tl;dr: Customization is highly overrated.
- asjw 7y ago
  Except you are paying 150 $ for a dinner and they are serving you a very over priced average meal and you can't even add anything to it to make it better. Do you want some oil on it(ram)? It's 80 euros because you have to ask the chef assistant (apple store) Do you want different kind of pasta which is the standard for that receipe? (Nvidia GPU) You can't So what are you really paying for? The forniture? I go to a museum if I wanna see some fine classy decor...
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
    In an expensive restaurant adding salt or oil to your meal is an insult to the chef.
    - grumpy8 7y ago
      Somehow I imagine that the same people who hate macbooks probably also hate fancy restaurants where adding salt is an insult to the chef
    - gambiting 7y ago
      I have eaten at some incredibly fancy restaurants and I think the chef would have to be an incredibly self-centered dick to have an issue with me adding some salt or oil to the dish - everyone has different tastebuds, if I want more soil then judging that is silly.
okennedy 7y ago
Once upon a time this was true. User-facing documentation was scarce (usually requiring internet searches). However, between unofficial package managers like homebrew, the excellent efforts of a few devs (LaunchBar/Quicksilver, PathFinder, Little Snitch, etc...), `osascript`, and the internet providing defaults documentation for obscure apple apps, I always felt like I could get the system to behave the way I needed it to. This started changing about a decade ago. The first time I noticed it was when Apple bundled all of the services involved in NAT into a huge binary (this would have been about OS X 10.8 or .9). You could turn it on or off, but there was no longer a built-in way to serve DHCP on both ports. There's been a steady progress away from tools aimed at the entire skill gradient and towards the lower end of that gradient: Around 10.9 OSX got new file open/save dialogs, which were infinitely better if you used a mouse... but lacked any cmd-key shortcuts. Gatekeeper has made it progressively harder for system tweaks like LaunchBar or Little Snitch to exist, and I've had to wrestle with SIP more than once. In summary, earlier versions of OSX are perfectly fine (my one remaining mac is on 10.10), but Apple has not been doing itself any favors with the dev community in more recent iterations of the OS.
- Myrmornis 7y ago
  > but lacked any cmd-key shortcuts Not true. The shortcut is cmd-shift-g which allows one to select files via the standard filesystem directory hierarchy, using a widget which supports tab completion.
- SPBS 7y ago
  What cmd-key shortcuts are you thinking of? FWIW every apple filepicker window I come across I can utilise the following shortcuts consistently, which is very nice: Cmd-Shift-A: Open Applications folder Cmd-Shift-H: Open Home folder Cmd-Shift-D: Open Desktop folder Cmd-Shift-O: Open Documents folder Cmd-Option-L: Open Downloads folder Cmd-Shift-L: Open Library folder Cmd-Shift-.: Toggle Hidden Files Cmd-[: Back Cmd-]: Forward Cmd-Up: Up
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - 7y ago
rsync 7y ago
"I use replacements for almost all the built-in apps. I use a custom launcher. My editor config Git repo is approaching ten years old, and my shell config Git repo is almost eight. There are standard interfaces to per-application Preferences and keyboard shortcuts. When I sit down to use someone else's Mac, I have no idea how to use it!" I run an environment, on OSX, similar to this although (I assume) much less ambitious in the customization. My biggest problem is the lack of focus-follows-mouse. I had this in the snow leopard days with an add-on called "mondomouse" which is abandonware and I attempted to solve it with "dwellclick" but that isn't really designed for what I need and doesn't work. Now I see that in very, very new versions of OSX there is some buried setting in accessibility that does honest-to-god focus-follows-mouse (as in, raise window as if I clicked it when I hover over) ... can anyone confirm/deny ?
- waterhouse 7y ago
  A coworker of mine used the X11 application (or XQuartz?)'s terminal windows for their focus-follows-mouse.
- slumos 7y ago
  The only reason mouse focus was ever useful to me is NOT raising the window. That way you can type at one window while reading the other. Otherwise you are just saving ... one click? ... when your hand is already on the mouse? Why not Cmd-TAB instead?
darksaints 7y ago
Get back to me when you can figure out how to upgrade your ram.
- neuroticfish 7y ago
  Huh? I had 0 problems upgrading the RAM in my 2011 MBP. Have they made it inaccessible since then?
  - 64738 7y ago
    Unfortunately, yes. Several years ago they started soldering the RAM directly to the motherboard, and don't provide any ram slots. So, whatever amount a unit shipped with is the max it will ever have. I'm still using a mid-2009 MBP. Upgraded the RAM, replaced the hard drive with an SSD, and just last week installed Catalina on it. It's still my daily driver lol.
kraf 7y ago
Remapping keyboard is ridiculously hard for example.. I had a somewhat working solution (never 100%) and one update destroyed everything (i think it was sierra)
joeevans1000 7y ago
The complaints usually refer to hardware customization (RAM, for instance). Now they glue components in and discourage the ability to change components whatsoever.
nileshk 7y ago
Agreed. I didn't immediately like OS X when I switched to it from Linux at home (and eventually Windows at work), but once I got the right set of 3rd party utilities (tiling app, keyboard shortcut modifiers, launcher, UNIX package manager, etc), it was a great fit. I think it'd be difficult to get the keyboard shortcut mappings I have working even in Linux -- Emacs-style keyboard shortcuts everywhere without interfering with the more typical keyboard shortcuts. Another thing is that if I really need something from Linux or Windows, I can either run a VM, boot into one of those OSes natively, or remote desktop to a server with good remote desktop performance. Hackintosh's are a possibility though have their rough edges, and macOS runs better in a VM these days from what I hear, but macOS is my preferred host OS anyway for things like audio/music production apps and video editing, so I'd want to run macOS natively over other OS's anyway. For the stuff I currently do, Linux and Windows run fine in a VM. So, going with the original analogy, macOS is like a hotel where you can have your own house inside.
e9 7y ago
How do I remove Siri so that it never comes back to ask if I want to enable it? Just disabling doesn’t work, it comes back asking to be turned on
yellow_lead 7y ago
Last time I used a Mac (about a year ago) I could not for the life of me figure out how to add shortcuts for repositioning windows across monitors. It seemed the only way was through a 3rd party paid app.

supernintendo 7y ago

My work laptop is a Thinkpad T480 running Fedora. It’s a wonderful machine but not without some flaws: 1. The thermal situation on newer Thinkpads needs to be called out. Even with undervolting, there doesn’t seem to be a sweet spot where you can avoid regular throttling without the CPU hitting unsafe temperatures. I’ve heard it can be somewhat remedied by applying more thermal paste to the CPU than the meager amount Lenovo provides out of the box (doing it yourself voids your warranty). Ultimately, I think there is a clear regression in the thermal design between Lenovo’s newer laptops and classic Thinkpads like the X200. The internals just aren’t designed to properly dissipate heat and while it’s nice that the fan is quiet, I wish it did more to cool the device. This seems to be a common issue not just with the T480 but other newer Thinkpads like the X1 Carbon. If anyone has any advice here beyond iuvolt, throttled etc. please let me know. 2. My model has a WQHD display and I use an external monitor with the same resolution but a lower DPI. Linux in 2019 is still a bit dicey when it comes to mixed DPI setups. GTK+ 3.0 applications on Wayland scale perfectly between displays but Firefox is a bit buggy and Electron apps are laughably bad. It has come a long way for sure but there’s still work to be done. All that said, I’m coming from a 2017 MacBook Pro that had way more issues from the failing keyboard to dead speakers and screen burn-in. I’m happier with the Thinkpad and enjoy using it as my daily driver. It’s a solid machine and the keyboard and port selection are perfect. No issues with running Linux on this device either. Everything just worked on a clean install and I’m able to do everything I did before on macOS whether it be software development, multimedia creation or just personal computing. The “hotel vs. home” analogy you used is dead-on and speaks to what I’ve always loved about Linux. I’ll take an OS that lets me tailor my own software experience over the proprietary equivalent any day.

LeonM 7y ago

I bought an X1E also as a replacement for my MBP, mostly for the keyboard and due to all the praise of developers about Lenovo. Mine has the same specs as yours, including the dual SSD for Linux. Overall it is pretty good, but nowhere near the finish of an Apple laptop. The X1E has terrible coil whine, and the fan is noisy. I have Windows 10 and Linux installed, both have it's problems. Windows has all sorts of power management issues out of the box, it still won't suspend reliably when you close the lid. Linux support for the dual GPU situation is also pretty bad, and the $400 Thunderbolt dock is a hit-and-mis on both Linux and Windows. I'm quite happy with the X1E though, the screen and keyboard are gorgeous. The ability to play some games on the GPU is also nice. But the experience is just not as polished as I had with my MBP. My MBP lasted for 6 year (professional daily use) and for some reason I don't expect the X1E to last that long (though I bought it, like you did, with the assumption it would last me at least 5 years). If only Apple were to offer decent support and a build a new laptop for true professional use... > According to reviews, it's quieter than my old Macbook (which was extremely noisy) FWIW, this only happens when dust gets in the fan of a MBP, they are normally super quiet. I've written about it before on HN, if you open the bottom lid and remove the dust your MBP should be quiet again :)

mcv 7y ago
I've replaced the fans on that old MBP and that didn't help, so I think it's really just that noisy. I was hoping the X1E would be quieter, but your experience is clearly different. My impression from reviews is that coil whine seems to be a fairly random issue that can affect any model, but usually doesn't. I wonder if Lenovo should fix it under the warranty. Seems to me there's no good excuse for coil whine. I've had the same problem with a laptop not going to sleep when you close the lid with a Dell laptop from work running Windows 10. I fixed it by having it hibernate instead, which does work reliably, but wakes up much slower. All of these things sound like they should have been solved problems by now. Why are laptops still plagued by these things?
- LeonM 7y ago
  The dust accumulates between the fan and the heatsink/radiator, it usually has nothing to do with the fan itself. Thanks for the tip on the coil whine issue, I thought it was just a design flaw. Maybe I can get it fixed under warranty.
  - mcv 7y ago
    Maybe I could have done a bit more about the noise, then. I mostly thought about the fans because I once had a noisy desktop PC that turned out to have its fan covered in gunk. The heatsink probably too, though. It would be really awesome if they fixed the coil whine under warranty. No idea if they will, but I think they should. Isn't it a sign that there's something electrically not quite right?

gherkinnn 7y ago

Have been working on Windows machines (C# ftw) for a while now. I hate it. Everything. Kafkaesque configuration UIs, horrible window management, mouse acceleration is off, font rendering is atrocious, the updates make me unreasonably angry, mixed design systems leave me confused, File Explorer isn’t even trying, many apps are downright insulting, and the entire thing just reeks of PMs in ill-fitting suits prodding things this way and that with their doughy fingers. And I need to install a linux subsystem to make it just about usable. It’s a shame, because I do like the look of their Surface line.

spectramax 7y ago
Don’t forget the ads. Ads, even in the powershell. Telemetry of everything. Automatic installs of OneDrive, Microsoft Teams, etc. Fuck Windows. It sucks.
- bufferoverflow 7y ago
  What ads??? I've been on Windows for decades, never saw a single ad by the OS.
  - IshKebab 7y ago
    I think it depends on your region. But I'm pretty sure every region gets a link to Candy Crush, Minecraft and other such nonsense in the start menu by default. Enterprise versions are probably safe still.
  - fortran77 7y ago
    I agree! I don't see ads. I'm running the "pro" version with almost all default settings. Do they consider pre-installed "Candy Crush" an ad? And if so, why isn't MacOS "iTunes" an ad?
    - Joeri 7y ago
      They probably mean onedrive and office 365 ads. If you don’t use those windows can get pretty persistent about getting them.
    - samdixon 7y ago
      Candy crush is an ad because the company pays Microsoft for it to be a default windows install. iTunes is Apple software.
  - msrmthehomeless 7y ago
    I think he's referring to app store recommendations and ms push for edge
  - romanovcode 7y ago
    How about fucking ads on built-in mail client - Windows Mail. "Purchase mail plus blabla". Pathetic from multi-billion company.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  As someone else pointed out, Enterprise versions don‘t get ads. As for teams, enterprises love teams since it comes with the Office license anyway.
  - spectramax 7y ago
    Not everyone has access to Enterprise version so this is a non-starter argument. Even better is the LTSC versions of Windows 10 but let's assume we are not pirating windows, and going to purchase a copy of windows, the users are left with a horrendous breach of privacy and a complete disregard to the user experience. Also, I loving Microsoft Teams is a different argument than having it pushed to your PC without asking.
    - gherkinnn 7y ago
      In no way did I mean to defend those actions. You are absolutely right. I merely tried to explain my ignorance towards them.
      - spectramax 7y ago
        I know what you mean, LTSC is such a obscure thing from your average Joe who buys a Dell PC.
- vips7L 7y ago
  I've never seen an ad in pwsh or on my desktop. I do agree the automatic installs are terrible.
vips7L 7y ago
> mouse acceleration Maybe it's the gamer in me, but who uses this? It's just going to make your mouse movements way less accurate. If you haven't tried it yet pwsh integration with C# is amazing, I wish there was something like it for the JVM.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Maybe “mouse acceleration” is the wrong term? Turning it on means there’s no 1:1 relationship between mouse and cursor movement. Quickly moving it across the entire screen? 2cm might equal 1000px. Slowly nudging a Rider toolbar to the correct position? 2cm now becomes 1px. I can see how it doesn’t work with gaming but for OS use it’s great. And it works slightly better on macOS. It’s subtle, but it’s there.
  - tekknik 7y ago
    that’s more DPI. unless my terms are conflated mouse acceleration increases the speed of the cursor during sustained movements. I’m not defending windows here, as I wish it would die in a fire, but do this in hardware by increasing mouse DPI if you can.
- NilsIRL 7y ago
  There's a reason why it's enabled by default on most OSs. Mouse acceleration can be really useful on small mousepads.
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
People don't wear suits at Microsoft, even PMs. Some of my best friends are PMs, and they were offended. The rest is all true though.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Did you explicitly ask them about doughy hands? In all fairness, the old Mac vs PC ads have left a permanent image in my mind. And them integrating Office in some (quite cool looking) earbuds just confirms it.
zarkov99 7y ago
Don't forget the file system and how locking by a rogue program can stop your build (and your workflow) until you figure out which program has a handle to the file you want to rebuild. The lack of scriptability of most tools. The perpetually behind C++ compiler. The lack of a proper terminal. The fucking ads. The broken updates. The relentless ratchet to control your machine and how you use it.
- vips7L 7y ago
  The new terminal is quite good. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal https://github.com/microsoft/terminal
president 7y ago
Windows is the wild west. There seems to be no underlying design philosophy tying together the UI elements and interactions of applications built on top of it. Funny because Microsoft actually has huge teams of UX researchers. What are they all doing?
- hollerith 7y ago
  What they are doing is continuing their decades-long commitment to backward compatibility, which makes it much harder to remove old code from the OS.

crispinb 7y ago

> Use Windows versions of things, not things compiled under Cygwin or MinGW This seems like an oddly outdated notion in the WSL era. Having used Windows 10 f/t in 2018, I'd say 'use Linux versions of commandline dev tools, not Windows'. Mostly though I agree that Windows 10 is a decent and viable Desktop OS. It does have some problems. The task bar is an appalling bit of Stalinist design (insisting on obscuring parts of running apps even when on auto-hide), and much of the Microsoft-supplied software (eg. Mail, Calendar) is terribly amateurish. If you use the Insiders builds (tempting because of WSL2), it's pretty buggy. But most of the fundamental stuff works extremely well. All of the OSs available have their irritations, but I don't think those of Windows are any more egregious or numerous than the competitors. Certainly MacOS (my main OS for many years prior to 2018) has become irrelevant to me because of absurd price-gouging and fake keyboards. What eventually pulled me off Windows towards Linux is largely the development experience and the filesystem. But then I have to put up with its egregious hdpi & multimonitor support and general GUI flakiness. There are no good OSs in 2019, just balances of tradeoffs for your particular purposes & preferences.

mxschumacher 7y ago
agree on the trade-offs have you given pop_os a try for the hdpi/multimonitor issue?
- crispinb 7y ago
  > have you given pop_os a try for the hdpi/multimonitor issue? A rule I made for myself when shifting to Linux is 'no distro hopping'. I want to spend as much of my computer time programming, and as little faux-sysadmining as I can. So no, I haven't tried pop_os. I'll have another survey of available distributions next time I change laptops, but thats a couple of years off yet which is a long time in the Linux distro world ;)
vips7L 7y ago
I'm curious what cli tool you find is better on linux? Imo WSL is fighting windows, especially WSL2, as it locks you out of the windows filesystem and you need special plugins to edit your code. For my workflow (node,electron,java) all of the tools are already cross platform and any shell tools are usually covered by powershell. I do admit though doing C development is probably more difficult as getting ports of things like make, ld etc is harder.
- crispinb 7y ago
  > I'm curious what cli tool you find is better on linux? It's not so much individual tools being better, but rather the whole unix shell ecosystem is still very much the dev default that everything command-related 'just works' from linux shells. Kind of the opposite from the GUI situation. WSL2 doesn't lock you out of the windows filesystem, it just slows it down. I found when working in Windows I preferred keeping everything in the WSL2 image, for speed & simplicity (no messing about with wslpath!). So to that extent I agree with your 'fighting Windows' comment. I don't want to exaggerate the differences - everything works in both, particularly in an age where developer toolchains are becoming ever more platform neutral (node, go, rust, java etc).

dotancohen 7y ago
Thank you very much. I defend that sentence as meaning "touch her with consent in ways that are different that what she is used to". In keeping with it being an analogy for config files, I would like to edit it to read "stumble a bit when I touch" but it seems that my post is locked to editing. You are invited to edit that phrasing in, or if you can unlock the post I'll do it. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'll do my best to apply what I've learned.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  After thinking about it some more, I stand by my original wording. The first time that we do something - whether it be with a woman or a new server - we make mistakes. That is what I was trying to express. In no way did I say or suggest that I would do things without somebody's consent. I'm sure if somebody is out looking for examples to make then he can twist my words into meaning that, but it is very clear from the context that "against consent" was not my intention. Those people out on their witch hunt are the problem.
  - dang 7y ago
    But it was not clear that it wasn't your intention. Intention doesn't explain itself, least of all on the internet where we don't have the nonverbal signals people mostly rely on for that. You can't assume that clarity of intention in your own mind translates into comparable clarity in the reader's mind. The opposite is more likely the case. It gets worse actually. If you word your comment in a way that pattern-matches any highly-charged idea that people already have from elsewhere, they are sure to interpret you as meaning that, even if your intention was in a different place entirely. It is comparable to a smaller mass getting pulled toward a much larger mass, even if its intention was to fly elsewhere. On a forum like HN, where we'll all responsible for taking care of the commons, the burden is on the speaker to disambiguate. To do otherwise is effectively to troll the community, and it turns out not to matter much whether someone did that intentionally or not; what matters is the effects it has.
    - dotancohen 7y ago
      > If you word your comment in a way that pattern-matches > any highly-charged idea that people already have from > elsewhere, they are sure to interpret you as meaning that I see, thank you.

SomeOtherThrow 7y ago

> In summary, earlier versions of OSX are perfectly fine (my one remaining mac is on 10.10), but Apple has not been doing itself any favors with the dev community in more recent iterations of the OS. The GNU/Linux community also isn't bending to my will arbitrarily either. Frustrating, to say the least. In all seriousness, people are all happy to talk about how easy linux is to customize until you broach the subject of changing keybindings to use a mac-like scheme (using command for gui interactions as a rule of thumb, readline bindings everywhere there's text entry), and you find out this is pretty much impossible. In reality software is mostly customizable in the way the creators built it to be customized, including things like windowserver and macos mouse behavior and X11 and gtk and emacs and bash.

ColanR 7y ago
It seems like you're using OSes that are trying to cater to a diminishingly technical crowd. I read (somewhere, a year or so ago) that the generation now in their late 20s/early 30s was the last one that actually needed to care about how their computers worked, because their computers occasionally needed to be fixed. Generally speaking, I think that the newer generation has likely never been exposed to a computer that they could try to troubleshoot and fix themselves: everything is iPhone apps and Windows 7 / 10 and Andriod and slick websites. The information age no longer requires technical knowledge. As a result, I'd guess that most of the purchasers of new computers are in the generations above and below the ones with technical knowlege: the new generation, without the background to even care about being a power user, and the older generation where most aren't power users anyway. BTW, I'm using i3, and I think it would be (relatively) super easy to change the keybindings around to what you're describing. It sounds like you may need to find an OS that's designed to expose the level of customization that you want.
- msbarnett 7y ago
  > > people are all happy to talk about how easy linux is to customize until you broach the subject of changing keybindings to use a mac-like scheme (using command for gui interactions as a rule of thumb, readline bindings everywhere there's text entry) > BTW, I'm using i3, and I think it would be (relatively) super easy to change the keybindings around to what you're describing. Really? How does one go about configuring i3 such that, say, any time you hit ctrl-w it deletes backwards to the previous white space (a common readline binding) in any text entry box in, say, Firefox, IntelliJ, Spotify, VLC, Amarok, Gimp, etc? Are you quite certain that “readline bindings everywhere there’s a textbox” is really in the scope of i3’s customizations? What OP described goes quite a bit beyond window manager customization. > It sounds like you may need to find an OS that's designed to expose the level of customization that you want. On OS X this can be achieved by placing { "^w" = "deleteWordBackward:"; } in $HOME/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeybindings.dict, so I rather think he already is using an OS that exposes this level of pervasive customization.
  - xfer 7y ago
    How does that work? If i implement my own editor using sdl2, how will it know? Are you sure it's not just cocoa specific? If that's the case it's possible for gtk too.
    - msbarnett 7y ago
      > If i implement my own editor using sdl2, how will it know? Are you sure it's not just cocoa specific? If that's the case it's possible for gtk too. Of course it’s system textbox specific; if you reimplement your own, there is no magic involved. And obviously it’s possible in GTK. And KDE, and one-offs like Firefox, for that matter. I’d suggest that the fact that you have to do it in about 20 different ways to cover your common apps, and a few will not even offer this kind of configuration, is net-worse than the OS which makes this so easy because there’s a standard GUI toolkit that nearly everything uses. This doesn’t mean “Linux Bad, OS X Good”, but it is indicative of the fact that “Linux is configurable and OS X isn’t” is a very poor descriptor of reality. Configurability is a complex topic with a lot of different facets, and both OSes offer different ranges of ease of configurability in different areas. ColanR made the extraordinary claim that, ostensibly because he uses i3, “it would be (relatively) super easy to change the keybindings around to <command for gui interactions as a rule of thumb, readline bindings everywhere there's text entry>”. This is a very typical Linux user’s response in which they very narrowly equate mac keybindings with “window manager configuration”, when the flexibility offered by the system is in reality much broader than that.
      - xfer 7y ago
        Well, the point is all of this problem is there in osx too, since GTK, Qt, sdl2 and custom made windowing toolkit can all run in osx. I know atleast a few programs that people use on osx which break these conventions, hence it's not as universal as your proclaim. Unless you run only their store apps on your computer(which most likely no developer does), then maybe what you say makes sense. Otherwise it's not better than linux distros like elementary OS where convention is also to use gtk only apps(similar to cocoa only).

cmiles74 7y ago

The Cocoa text input widget supports these keybindings and is used in many applications. Linux does not have one single input widget that is as popular (Gnome apps use a GTK text widget, KDE apps use a Qt text widget, etc.) On Linux, you would need to address this setting on a per widget set basis. I don't think this supports the argument that Mac OS X is somehow more customizable that Linux. In my opinion it's the opposite: every application is strongly encouraged to use the same text widget. We're lucky in this case that we like this function. In other cases (like virtual desktop management) Apple's decisions have been towards less customizability. I believe that has long been a Hallmark of Apple, back when OS X was released Apple scoffed at the idea that anyone would ever want to change the default theme (which at that time was a bit more extreme). A "gray" theme.was introduced after much pressure from customers. That said, I seriously doubt that the Apple Computer of today is as interested in ensuring this functionality to the same degree as the Apple of ten years ago. They have made many developer unfriendly decisions in the past decade, I wouldn't count on this feature being present indefinitely.

msbarnett 7y ago
> Linux does not have one single input widget that is as popular (Gnome apps use a GTK text widget, KDE apps use a Qt text widget, etc.). On Linux, you would need to address this setting on a per widget set basis. Yes, I clearly already understood that. I was pointing out how absurd ColanR’s claim was that he could do this all through i3 config “super easy”. It isn’t within the domain of the window manager to control the toolkits’ widget bindings, which are all over the map in terms of customizability. > I don't think this supports the argument that Mac OS X is somehow more customizable that Linux. In my opinion it's the opposite: every application is strongly encouraged to use the same text widget. Which, in my opinion, strongly increases customizability because I can be sure the things I customize work the way I want them to effectively everywhere; I am not limited by every third application author’s obstinate choice to hardcode some other set of bindings in some deliberately incompatible toolkit. I’d suggest that our disagreement comes down to the fact that configurability is not a linear gradient, but a fairly complex, multi-dimensional topic with a lot of subtle trade-offs that different people may have different preferences surrounding. > I wouldn't count on this feature being present indefinitely. Sure. Similarly I don’t count on however you do this in GTK today still working in 5 years, given how often they CADT their way into new incompatible configuration systems.