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Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

• nailer 7y ago
  This is Vox blogspam. Original source from the article: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-keyboard-macbook-air-pro/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-keyboard-macbook-air-... dang could you update it? Edit: not sure why this is being downvoted, this is literally the source URL quoted in the Verge article and Vox sites (including this one) are frequently filled with clickbait.
• pjmlp 7y ago
  Finally!!! I don't mind the touchbar, rather the quality where dust particles break it down.
  • submeta 7y ago
    Touchbar: Never use it. Reprogrammed my keys to have Esc mapped on Caps (if it‘s hit alone) and Ctrl (it if is hit in combination with other keys).
    • pixard 7y ago
      Mind sharing what you used to get this Esc behavior? (single vs combo hit)
      • rectang 7y ago
        I'd like to know as well. I've got [capslock] mapped to [control] via system prefs already, and I'm not willing to give that up. As a Vim user, that puts me in a quandary for how to deal with the [escape] key should I ever move to a touchbar MBP, and is one of the reasons I'm still typing this on a 2012 MBPr. I live inside Vim all day every day.
      • rane 7y ago
        I configured mine using Hammerspoon with this plugin: https://github.com/jasonrudolph/ControlEscape.spoon https://github.com/jasonrudolph/ControlEscape.spoon
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • submeta 7y ago
        I am using Karabiner Elements: https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ You can do all kinds of Keyboard modifications. See here for the mentioned mod: https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/complex_modifications/#caps_lock https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/complex_modifications/#caps_l...
    • pjmlp 7y ago
      Given that I am not a vi user, ESC being there doesn't matter to me. There are the F keys when debugging, but I tend to jump between them and mouse anyway. Since I only use Mac devices occasionally at work, I guess all in all it doesn't make that bad impression on me, versus fighting single keys for input.
      • dkersten 7y ago
        As a vim user, I always use Ctrl-[ anyway instead of escape. So I map my capslock to control. (Although nowadays I mainly use a kinesis advantage keyboard so non of that matters much anymore. Hell, many of vi's features like hjkl movement don't matter anymore either as all the modifier keys are all easily reachable now)
• submeta 7y ago
  Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops. - It‘s unbelievable how this crap could be released. Coming from a ThinkPad to a MBP in 2015 I was even disappointed by the keyboard of the MBP 2015. Then switching to a MBP 2018 I was shocked how much worse things could get (for the sake of thinness?)
  • kossae 7y ago
    What’s wrong with the 2015? That’s the last good version of the keyboard IMO.
    • geolgau 7y ago
      It's not as good as those on Thinkpads.
      • rimliu 7y ago
        Yes, better.
      • DerDangDerDang 7y ago
        I much preferred the keyboard on my 2015 MBP to that on my 2018 Thinkpad. The newer Apples keyboards (including the wireless ones) are crap, I agree.
      • sbuk 7y ago
        Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
      • isostatic 7y ago
        Which thinkpads? From 2003? From 2010? From today?
        • philliphaydon 7y ago
          I got an X1 Extreme. Keyboard is amazing. Didn’t know these keyboards were so much better than any MAC I owned until January this year.
• neckeri 7y ago
  Touchbar: Needs to always be on Needs haptic feedback
  • jclardy 7y ago
    Also: Either shorten it by one button and keep physical escape key, or move it up and return the entire half height function row.
    • sjwright 7y ago
      Do the former on 13 inch models and the latter for 15+ inch models.
• dougmwne 7y ago
  Thank goodness. MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects, but I had to cross them off the buy list due to the keyboard. I understand it's controversial, but for me I've spent plenty of time using the butterfly keyboard and it just doesn't feel comfortable to me. And I'm not some mechanical keyboard purist, actually my favorite keyboard of all time was the previous chicklet keyboard. A runner up for me is a travel Bluetooth keyboard with round keys that Logitech makes.
  • robertAngst 7y ago
    > MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects I've never heard this before. I thought some people needed their proprietary software that could only be run on Apple products, and that is what forces someone to buy a Macbook. What are they best in class for? EDIT: Thank you for the serious responses
    • Cyph0n 7y ago
      Reliable, great hardware quality (keyboard aside), gorgeous Unix-based OS out of the box, excellent driver support. Edit: And the best trackpad ever designed imo
    • nicky0 7y ago
      Best in class screens The trackpad is unsurpassed in the industry Low power consumption / good battery life
    • Razengan 7y ago
      > What are they best in class for? The overall experience.
      • robdachshund 7y ago
        Yeah forking over an extra grand to buy a poorly built computer that looks pretty to use a god awful OS on mediocre hardware... what a great experience. It doesn't sound like any of you have used a windows laptop in decades.
    • 7y ago
• kuon 7y ago
  It's too late, I sailed away. It took me a year to have a good linux setup, not switching back. But I'm glad they finally admitted the problem.
• rmjdjdj 7y ago
  I took multiple days to get my hackintosh running. The only reason I kept going was because I didn’t want to buy a MB that could break down anytime and take days to repair. I am glad they are finally switching the keyboard.
• sersi 7y ago
  Great! Maybe next year I can finally get a new mbp :) I've been staying on 2013 mbp because of that but it's getting long in the tooth (plus affected by staingate but apparently too late for Apple to fix)
• AHTERIX5000 7y ago
  If Apple couldn't fix it with two iterations there might be fundamental problems with the design. Good riddance.
• kenneth 7y ago
  Once I got used to the new keyboards, I actually far prefer them. Ditto with the TouchBar. Yeah, I'm a heretic I suppose. Keyboard: pleasant clicky-ness and little movement required. Thin AF. TouchBar: customized with BetterTouchTools to be a hybrid of my most often-used shortcuts (expand menu, alfred, fantastical, window management, and 1password on the left, notification center and lock screen on the right) and music controls with gestures in the middle: shows current track, can change volume, switch tracks, play/pause, mute, or tap into a submenu to pull up most frequent playlists and add current songs to my library. Way better than using the function keys of old. Oh and the escape key… long remapped to caps lock. If I really need caps lock, fn + caps lock key toggles it.
  • dewey 7y ago
    The problem that most people have is not with how it feels, it's how unreliable it is with buttons failing or missing keystrokes. Sometimes only caused by a spec of dust. Getting used to the feeling of the flatter keyboard isn't really an issue for most people.
    • jbverschoor 7y ago
      Exactly It’s a piece of shit, and even after a replacement it’s broken within weeks.
      • afandian 7y ago
        I'm just contemplating my second return...
    • sroussey 7y ago
      No, most people have no issues. There is not a 51% failure rate. Being in a group does not a majority make.
      • dewey 7y ago
        I was referring to the subset of people who have a problem though, not the total number of customers who bought one.
• sjwright 7y ago
  That's good news—for the people who are buying laptops next year. Hopefully the return to scissor switches is combined with some improvements to the touch bar. My suggestion to Apple would be: put a small physical ESC key on the far left of the touch bar on 13 inch models, and include both physical F-keys AND a touch bar on the larger models. Bonus points: allow people to choose classic F-keys on the 13 inch models as a BTO option.
  • mrweasel 7y ago
    I would love to see Apple make the touch bar an option. If Apple sold two identical MacBooks models, except for the touch bar, my guess would be that they would sell significantly more units without the touch bar. Is anyone seriously benefiting from the touch bar or even using it for anything other than as a gimmick?
    • peeters 7y ago
      I hate it, but I think there are definitely uses for the TouchBar. My main issue is the lack of indexing. You really can't use it without looking at your keyboard. I already dislike that the chiclet keyboards have no grouping of F-keys, unlike my standard layout keyboard that groups them into groups of four. But at least there I understand it's due to space constraints, and at least I still have some physical guide to the key I want.
    • skohan 7y ago
      IMO it's a liability and an unmitigated failure. It feels like a decision which came down from the board room, not from UX. Like: how can we make this product "pop" and at the same time make keyboard replacements produce more revenue? The toudchbar is useless without developer adoption, and there will never be developer adoption if the only people using the feature are those who can spend a couple thousand dollars on a laptop. It seems to me the non-inclusion on the new Macbook Air was an admission of failure.
• beowulfey 7y ago
  Are the butterflies justifiably thinner than the older chicklet keyboard? I feel like there is no way they made a measurable difference... But maybe it did.
  • shawnz 7y ago
    0.5mm travel versus 1.3mm travel, so less than half.
• baybal2 7y ago
  And at the same time, Dell switches its XPS line to butterfly switches...
• d3ckard 7y ago
  Don't understand the problem. I like new keyboard more than the previous one, I'm indifferent to touchbar and mapping escape to capslock was the best thing ever. The only thing I hate is keys getting stuck, but it actually stopped happening(2017 model). I wouldn't like to come back to old keyboard now.
  • WAHa_06x36 7y ago
    The problem is that the keyboard breaks very easily, at random.
    • dkersten 7y ago
      My previous work laptop (2017 MBP) had keys sticking within about 3 or 4 months of getting it.
    • nottorp 7y ago
      If you're always in a clean environment, the keyboard is ok. I've used 3 consecutive mac laptops on the same balcony, open air. The one from 2010 and the one from 2014 are just fine thank you. The one from 2018 already has keyboard problems and it hasn't even been a year since i bought it. So yes, the keyboard is complete and utter shit.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    • spookybones 7y ago
      Yeah that’s crucial. I’m still using my 2012 MBP. I clean it once or twice a year, more for aesthetics. It’s great not having to worry about where and how I use it (outside of extreme environments) every time I use it.
  • adwi 7y ago
    Feel the same—but I’d probably feel differently if I had a keyboard failure, especially before the free repair program. Going back to the previous generation feels mushy now...
• ruethewhirl 7y ago
  About time, been wanting get a MacBook pro to replace my 2011 MacBook Air but wasn't going to get one with that keyboard. Will still wait a while to see if new design is any good.
  • wiredfool 7y ago
    Yep, same here. I broke down and got a used 2015 MBP when the new Gen Airs came out, because I needed something and just couldn't handle the butterfly keyboard. ($day_job machine is a 2017 MBP, and 95% of the time, I use an external keyboard/monitor)
• brailsafe 7y ago
  I'm really hoping for materials improvements across the board on the next 13" MBP. I haven't had that many issues with the keyboard, though do find it a little loud. However, I find that the aluminum scratches too easily, gets stained quickly, and the screen coating is very vulnerable to damage from both the keyboard pressing against it and just bout anything touching it. Likewise, while I happen to have only been using it exclusively as a portable laptop with not much plugged into it, the thought of trying to plug this into the wall, a monitor, and an external HD at the same time is infuriating. Even if I had a USB-C to displayport connector, I'd be out of ports. Couldn't even plug in a Logitech wireless mouse at the same time. It's pretty upsetting that I spent so much money and have more constraints than I did before.
  • djaychela 7y ago
    You've pretty much summed up where I am with my 2017 13" MBP. It was a huge purchase for me and I felt it was an investment at the time (I'm spending a few years learning coding skills having been made redundant), but having had to have the screen replaced because of keybaord damage, and having ugly-looking wear around the thunderbolt ports - all of this on a laptop that I treat very well, and which had had a hardshell case since day one and always travels in a padded slip case - I can't say I'm impressed at all. If it really was a 'pro' piece of kit, I wouldn't need to put a sheet of A4 paper between the screen and keyboard to avoid the glass getting damaged every time I shut it (it's now out of Apple Care warranty, and another screen would be £500). I actually like the feel of the keyboard (although it is noisy), and I love the trackpad - anything else feels like a cheap toy in comparison now. I've needed on occasion to use it with external hardware - soundcard, dongle for Cubase, USB memory, etc., and it's a messy pain. I also have a 2010 15" MBP I was recently gifted, and it's better overall because it's solid, reliable and has lots of ports, and doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves. Yes, it has the procesing power of a ZX Spectrum in comparison to the 2017, but I can live with that. It's become my travelling laptop instead of the 2017 because it's not a hothouse flower. I don't know if this trend was solely Jony Ive's, but I sincerely hope they will make actual 'Pro' machines in the future. However, I shall not be buying one. This cost me a fortune (twice as much as any laptop I've bought in the past), and it's once bitten, twice shy, I'm afraid.
• JDiculous 7y ago
  Great, the butterfly keys were an enormous downgrade in terms of comfort, and one of the reasons I sold my 2017 Macbook Pro. But will they still keep that awful touchbar where the Esc and F1-12 are supposed to be? Then I'll still be passing.
  • vr46 7y ago
    I have a personal 2015 MBP but my current client has provided me with a 2018 MBP. Despite being a Vim user, I’ve discovered that the Touch ID allows me to shut my laptop more often due to the quick login, rather than it being an always open distraction. (I work from books and paper a lot). This is not applicable to many others, I’m sure, but I’ve found a new way of using the laptop as a result: as yet another tool and not the dominant one.
    • m12k 7y ago
      Yeah, it seems to me the ideal version still has TouchId but not the rest of the touch bar (Like modern Macbook Air). Combine that with scissor switch keys, and then I'll be happy to upgrade
      • mromanuk 7y ago
        so basically the 2020 ideal machine is the macbook pro mid-2015 (I've this) with newer cpu, memory, etc
        • vr46 7y ago
          Haha, yes, can’t wait. Function keys instead of a gigantic trackpad, too, please.
  • rikkus 7y ago
    I had a loaner Touchbar-equipped MBP as my daily driver for a couple of months. I already had Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl. I used Karabiner Elements to map a Caps Lock press to Escape. It took about a day to get used to. I’ve managed to get a 2015 model back now, but I’m sticking with Caps Lock press = Escape. I miss the fingerprint reader!
• hyko 7y ago
  I like the butterfly keyboards.
  • yreg 7y ago
    Me too, for the first few days, before they inevitably start acting up.
• throwaway9d0291 7y ago
  Now just get rid of the touchbar and I'll consider using a Mac again.
  • worldsayshi 7y ago
    Have you actually used it though? I find it kind of useful. Not super useful but at least slightly more useful than gimmicky.
    • dominostars 7y ago
      Not the OP but yes I’ve used it and yes I hated it. 95% gimmick and frustrating as hell to use. Had to return my laptop and I’ve been desperately waiting for them to remove it for a 15-inch pro.
• StreamBright 7y ago
  What about missing jack and hdmi ports?
• holografix 7y ago
  So I guess now we know why Ive got fired?
  • gourou 7y ago
    More like gently pushed out, he's still consulting for them. I hope they revert other changes: bring back magsafe and USB ports
    • hyperbovine 7y ago
      The "consulting" thing is pure window-dressing IMO. I have several friends who work for Apple, and from talking to them (+ everything I've ever read about their culture) either you're in the tent or you're out. Outsiders have no meaningful role in their process.
      • skohan 7y ago
        It really makes me appreciate how valuable it is to have a physical mute button on every device which makes sound. Especially when it gets hung for a few seconds, and I have to manually mute from the task bar using the cursor.
    • dboreham 7y ago
      Above some level you never actually get fired unless you commit some serious crime (I mean, more serious than a bad keyboard).
• dkersten 7y ago
  Too late for me. I've already jumped ship and the effort of moving back isn't worth it. I still have and use apple products, but I've no interest in buying any more now, thanks to the shoddy experience I had with their more recent products. I also have no interest in airpods, so a new iphone is out too. Apple won me over quite late and then within about two years lost me again. It made me sad, because I really liked their products during that time, especially the multi-device experience, but I now already use too many non-Apple devices for that to matter and don't care anymore now.
  • vimslayer 7y ago
    What are you using now? I have a ThinkPad T470p and really like it. The keyboard feels really great, although the fn key placement is a bit annoying.
    • dkersten 7y ago
      Mixture between a desktop, a cheap laptop (which I plan to replace with an X1 Carbon or a Thinkpad isn’t he coming months, although I haven’t researched it yet) and an old Mac Mini when I want to use mac software. OS-wise, I use Manjaro Linux.
• doe88 7y ago
  The complexity and cost of butterfly keyboards comparatively to traditional keyboards, reliables and cheaps just reminds me a bit an article I read on the development of Electromagnetic Catapults in US Navy (hard to build, astronomical costs).
  • cglace 7y ago
    Are you referring to railguns?
• forgingahead 7y ago
  Great! Now all they need to do is bring back MagSafe and 2 USB ports and all will be well again
  • megablast 7y ago
    > and 2 USB ports and all will be well again The pro has 4 usb ports.
    • mschuster91 7y ago
      GP means real USB ports not the horror that is USB-C
      • thiht 7y ago
        What's wrong with usb c ?
        • mschuster91 7y ago
          Most stuff people use USB for still have the good old USB-A adapters: mice, keyboards, USB sticks/other drives, card readers, LTE dongles. The things that actually need the massive speed benefits from USB-C (10G network adapters and PCIe enclosures) can have USB-C, fine with me, but please don't force users to buy and especially lose adapters just to be able to use their existing stuff. And no need to make shit ever more expensive and complex, a mouse won't ever need anything from USB-C.
          • thiht 7y ago
            So nothing's wrong with USB-C. The problem is the lack of USB-A.
          • iSnow 7y ago
            I have a hard time understanding people that just keep complaining about the new USB-C ports instead of just buying a handful of those (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CVX3516 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CVX3516) and permanently attaching them to the mouse/keyboard cables.
• vectorEQ 7y ago
  only once i had a mac keyboard, and it didnt work on my mac. good stuff. no suprise here...
• coldtea 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBByTiKfyY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBByTiKfyY
• Razengan 7y ago
  I personally love the Touch Bar and I really like the quiet, soft, short-travel keys on the 2015+ MacBooks. Other than a "rigid" cursor key on the first-generation 12" MacBook, I haven't experienced any unresponsive keys, definitely not on the Pros, yet (though that may be because I always use a protector or "keyboard condom" to prevent finger stains and smudges.) I do not miss MagSafe or the headphone jack either. I prefer thinness and lightness. I'm one of the people who have been satisfied with Macs for a long time and haven't considered switching to anything else, and despite what the loud minority may make it seem like, I'm clearly not alone: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/09/new-macbook-pro-has-outsold-all-competitors/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/09/new-macbook-pro-has-outs...
  • nik736 7y ago
    Give me at least the option to get rid of the touch bar. I want physical keys, the touch bar has zero advantages for me but a lot disadvantages. It's not really an innovation that needs to be pushed like for example USB C, it's just an annoying accessory that they forced on us to raise prices.
  • whitehouse3 7y ago
    In fairness, the news story you linked about outsized MBP sales was before the keyboard scandal hit the press. And much of that demand was a result of Apple’s failure to spec bump their pro machines. Lots of us were waiting for the next generation.
    • Razengan 7y ago
      > the news story you linked about outsized MBP sales was before the keyboard scandal hit the press. Even then, there was similar snarfle about Apple "failing" when the new Touch Bar redesign was first revealed, where a few handful of people were opting to speak on everyone's behalf, saying that the new MBPs will flop and nobody will buy them. Then again, this has been going on for over 20 years: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500
      • 7y ago
• kvczor 7y ago
  > Things that are obvious.
• mschuster91 7y ago
  Now make it thicker, add decent CPU/GPU combos and an SD card reader for us photographers...
• Perceptes 7y ago
  I desperately hope this is true. I have the first MacBook Pro that came with the Touch Bar, and it's the worst computer I've ever owned. The keyboard has failed twice, and the Touch Bar is inferior to the old hardware keys in every way. I hate it. The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it replaced was dying and I couldn't wait any more. Assuming this report is true, my only remaining worry is that they won't offer a version of this new Pro without a Touch Bar, or that only a model with a smaller display will offer hardware function keys, like they've done in the past.
  • cs02rm0 7y ago
    Oh, it's definitely true. I've just bought one after holding out for 6 years since my last MBP. Everyone's wishes will be granted imminently.
  • maayank 7y ago
    I'm on the exact same boat (Air then 1st touch bar Mac). I've resigned to using it docked only both at work and home.
  • meerita 7y ago
    I've bought the non Touch Bar model after using 2 months the TB one. I have never regret this decision.
    • kypro 7y ago
      I am sat here trying to work on a computer with about 8 buttons loose and two buttons which double press. I've had the keyboard replaced once already for exactly the same problem, but I'm a contractor and Apple can take weeks to repair the keyboard so I'm probably going to be stuck working like this for a while longer - at least until I take holiday. It's far from acceptable for a $2,000 [pro]fessional machine.
      • meerita 7y ago
        When the iPhone was announced and Steve Jobs commented how they were going to replace the keyboards on the screen, it seemed like a great idea. The adaptation was instantaneous. But when they announced this for the Macbook Pro models, the experience was not the same. Not to mention the bugs I had.
• natch 7y ago
  Waiting to replace my 2013 MBP someday... it has been wonderful (it has the old keyboard style) but please Apple, make it soon.
• xattt 7y ago
  I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.
  • amiga-workbench 7y ago
    The key feel would only be slightly worse than the current offering.
  • afandian 7y ago
    The Lenovo Yoga Book is a hinged tablet. Bottom half is a glass surface with both capacitive touch and Wacom digitiser. It comes with a Wacom pen, which has a swappable ballpoint pen nib so you can draw on paper and have it digitised. There's a backlit silkscreen-type stencil that shines through a (permanent) keyboard layout. And touchpad. So, it's touch-screen typing on a fixed keyboard layout. And you can swap between pen-digitiser and keyboard mode. A crazy set of features. I was very excited to buy it. They keyboard is very hard to use. The pen is laggy and there's no really useful Android software. I use it exclusively for watching videos. Go figure. Still, I'm glad they tried it. There's too much device monoculture IMHO. https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-tablet/Lenovo-YB1-X90L/p/ZZITZTOYB1L https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-ta...
    • ivankolev 7y ago
      The bit about the swappable pen tip picked my interest, cool feature! As an avid believer that pen input is the most flexible way to express your thought process, I find it a bit of a lost art though, people born in the new millennium just wont spend the time to learn to write cursive. I went through most of the Note generation from Samsung and the SPen is getting really close to the look and feel of writing on paper. There's a Google hand writing keyboard for Android that is really good, in fact I am writing this using it. Still, it looks like it will continue to be a niche functionality at best.
      • gmueckl 7y ago
        About 15 years ago during my studies I dreamt of a tablet device with pen input and hand writing recognition for advanced maths. I was writing a lot during my physics lectures but almost no plain text. I would still like to have such a device, but also with a CAS integrated with the handwriting recognition. This would take the pain out of typing stuff into a CAS using obscure syntax.
• draw_down 7y ago
  I’ve had one for a few months now and it seems fine, however the failure rate is a real problem.
• bg0 7y ago
  I feel like I'm the only one that actually preferred the new butterfly keys over the old one; even after some keys got sticky and I had to get them replaced. I was able to get a few more 2 year old internal parts replaced while it happened so it was pretty worth it IMO.
• EnderMB 7y ago
  I'd be interested in MBP sales figures from the batch of MacBooks with the new keyboard/touch bar. From my perspective, despite a whole host of issues, very few people seem to have actually moved away from Mac's. I hear a lot of grumbling, but you only need to look at this thread to see people claim that the MBP is the best professional-grade laptop available today, when the issues with the OS, the keyboard, and the touch bar indicate that this hasn't been the case for years. I assumed that for this reason Apple would have stuck with their design choice, and would iterate over time - unless there has been a significant enough drop in sales.
  • andrew_ 7y ago
    I stick with it because, in only my very subjective and personal view, there's no other OS available that is as streamlined as Mac OS. I try all modern offerings just about once a year, and have yet to find anything better for myself. It's their one saving grace in my view.
    • EnderMB 7y ago
      Would you say that this is because the alternatives aren't as good, or because your workflow is tied towards using Mac? In my case, I think it's definitely the latter. For Ruby dev I could switch to Debian tomorrow and probably be fine, especially since most of the stuff I work on from day to day uses Docker. That won't stop my workplace from buying MBP's, though..
      • andrew_ 7y ago
        For me personally, the alternatives aren't as good. I came from a long history of Windows use (back to 1.0, up to Windows 7) and have kept a watchful eye on Linux and newer Windows versions.
  • kevinmchugh 7y ago
    There's been room in the budget for me to upgrade my work MBP for about 6 months. I haven't considered it. I've got the old keyboard and I've seen what my coworkers have to deal with. I've also convinced my wife to wait on replacing her decade-old MacBook.
• candyman 7y ago
  I hope this is true. I was about to replace my 2013 MBP with a used 2015 or shift over to Windows. (The Lenovo Carbon has a great keyboard.) I can wait until next year to see if Apple really does the right thing but if not - it's Lenovo for the new machine.
  • qrbLPHiKpiux 7y ago
    The only reason I passed on the carbon is because of the screen. Apple has spoiled me with their glass screens.
• TheAdamist 7y ago
  Next up, extending the touchbar into a a touchscreen keyboard. No moving parts, even thinner, far more expensive, looks trendy, absolutely unusable, it's the apple March of progress.
• josefrichter 7y ago
  the keyboard is actually awesome, when it works properly. I really love it. The short key travel is great, and using older macbook keyboards now feels like going back to a typewriter. However, I am also one of those who's taking his 2 months old macbook to repair shop, coz one of the keys just stops clicking and becomes rubbery.
• lettergram 7y ago
  ... but still the touchbar.
• pxlpshr 7y ago
  The comments in this thread are hilarious. I guess some of you all have forgotten about that can of duster you’ve relied on for the last 30+ years to clean the muck from just about every keyboard. I don’t understand the rage... I use my MBP just as much as anyone, the butterfly keys feel so much better than the old clickity keys and I’ve gotten use to the TouchBar. F Keys we’re useless to me unless they were remapped, and now the TouchBar gives me a lot of options for customizations.
  • bayindirh 7y ago
    I'm also pretty flexible in my ways and, can accept maintenance of equipment but, assuming one size fits all is a wrong path to follow IMHO.
  • gdubs 7y ago
    Been kind of my experience too. Bought my wife a rose gold entry level MacBook a couple of years back and, it’s one of the nicest laptops I’ve ever had. I have a MacBook Pro for work and the touchbar doesn’t bother me. Screen is beautiful, plenty powerful. I’ll throw one crit out there though: the wireless mouse on my iMac Pro. When it runs out of batteries you have to plug it in, but it plugs in on the bottom. Wired mice have existed since the invention of the mouse, so it’s pretty frustrating that you can’t just plug it in to the front and have it act like a wired mouse while charging. This was clearly done so that the mouse could have its svelte shape. Sigh.
• suprgeek 7y ago
  Finally! Now please also admit that the TouchBar is a colossal failure that only a few niche users grew to like and either: 1) Ditch it completely - return the Fn key row back but add button for Touch Id (a. la the new MacBook Air) OR 2) Invent a better version with Haptic Feedback so that Touch typists get a FEEL for hitting keys instead of moronically having to look down to ensure that they did not F* things up
• rev12 7y ago
  It seems like there are two camps of people: Those who are very pleased to hear they will be backpedaling on their updated keyboard designs. Those who "don't understand" because they actually like the new keyboards (and the TouchBar even). No matter where you stand, the new keyboards are highly controversial and divisive, and that's not good. The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there. Sure people compared them to other manufacturer keyboards, sometimes for the worse and other times for the better, but it wasn't a hate or love relationship by the user base. There was no "getting used to it," it was just a keyboard. I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard. I hope that's what we get.
  • wmeredith 7y ago
    This is the real point. A keyboard IS AN INTERFACE. The point of it is to move information between two things: the computer and me. It is a means. If I notice it at all, that’s a negative.
  • Octoth0rpe 7y ago
    > The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there. Have you ever spoken to a thinkpad advocate re: chiclet keyboards? The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened. > I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard. Honestly, this will never happen for two reasons: 1) people's needs are diverse enough where that's simply an impossible job. I happen to _really_ like the current apple keyboards, but the reliability is bad enough for me to want a change. The consensus where I work (100ish mac laptops) is that the keyboard is awful. Someone is going to be unhappy, and it sounds like it might be me :( 2) There's some segment of the technology world (non-unix people?) that will latch onto any criticism of apple - fair/deserved or not - and shout it endlessly.
    • dkarl 7y ago
      > The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened. I would dispute that people stopped caring about the keyboard shortcomings. They're ergonomically bad keyboards, just not bad enough to keep complaining for this many years. If all Apple cares about is what people are currently chattering about, they're missing an opportunity to improve the product, because I still regard the MacBook keyboards as a reason to buy something else. When I think of the painful adjustment that I'll have to make if I ditch Apple laptops in favor of something else, there's a voice in my head saying, "Remember when a laptop keyboard could feel good to type on?" Banging my fingertips into a hard surface all day never became "just a keyboard."
• patrec 7y ago
  Apart from reliability concerns (mine hasn't failed yet), the macbook 12" butterfly incarnation has become my favorite mobile keyboard now. Other keyboards, like my old-gen macbook pro feel mushy in comparison now, and at least for the ultra-svelte macbook 12" the obsession with thinness and lightness does pay off. I wonder if we will see a wave of butterfly nostalgia when the new design comes out.
• edouard-harris 7y ago
  I wonder how much this change (if true) is correlated to Jony Ive's departure.
• ctime 7y ago
  Avid user of Apple gear for many years and so happy they are throwing out that garbage. Ive never had the displeasure of actually using the butterfly keyboard on my daily driver (holding out with mid-2015 MBP 15) and dont plan on upgrading to a new Apple laptop if I have to deal with the touchbar/keyboard non—sense. You’d think with the thousands of skus they ship today they could figure out most people would be happy with a refreshed 15 with 2 USB-A and 2 USB-C ports (I can live w/o Magsafe)
  • iSnow 7y ago
    If you are an Apple user for many years, you will know that they won't go back to USB-A. And actually, that's a good thing.
• RayVR 7y ago
  Having used the 2018 MacBook Air for about 3 months now, I can say I really detest it and I would return it if that were possible. 1) the keyboard. This thing really feels like slamming your fingers into a metal slab. I think my iPad Pro keyboard is better. The MacBook Air keyboard is also very loud. For something with so little depth the sound is shocking. 2) the webcam. Total garbage. In a laptop this expensive I think this is inexcusable. my old ipad has a significantly better camera for video calls so I’m not carrying around both. Ridiculous. 3) the new charger is so much worse than I could have expected. The lack of MagSafe I knew about, thought it would be ok. Really a big loss. There’s also something wrong with the cable. It’s constantly getting kinks/twists in the wiring which I can’t straighten out, even though I baby it. If they release a new MacBook Air this year I’ll definitely feel a bit betrayed. Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS.
  • orev 7y ago
    At least for the magsafe thing you can buy USB-C magnetic adapters like the “CONMDEX USB C Magnetic Adapter”. Doesn’t address the other major shortcomings, but it’s a small win.
    • wila 7y ago
      Perhaps that one is ok. Bought the baseus variant and after a month it is unreliable for charging already. Never had that issue with a magsafe.
  • pier25 7y ago
    > Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS. That happened with the iPad 3. It was replaced 6 months later since its SOC was totally underpowered for its retina display.
    • lostgame 7y ago
      My iPad 2 vastly outperforms my iPad 3...this is very much true.
  • eugeniub 7y ago
• baybal2 7y ago
  I was on board with a company trying to make a new type of keyboard switch in 2017. The venture folded, but I'd say not for technical reasons. They used a parallelogram mechanism in addition to a spring to provide quadratic easing in force feedback. Nobody tried the same scheme since then as I know.
• oldmantaiter 7y ago
  Thiiss is reaelley good newes, my thirid genereatiiion keyeeboard . stiill has . isssuees
• firepoet 7y ago
  This is good news! Sad to say I can’t buy another Mac laptop until the Touch Bar is gone, too. Sad, too, because that means I’m stuck with Linux, which is much higher maintenance than Mac OS. ;-)
• nishanmiranda 7y ago
  Yes finally. I still haven't updated my work laptop which is 2015 Macbook Pro because of the Butterfly keyboard
• DrScientist 7y ago
  Yeah! I really don't like the current keyboards. Also while your at it - produce a proper Pro laptop! Worry less about the thinness and - add better thermal control - more memory - more storage. - extra port or too so less requirements for dongles. - option for matt rather than shiny displays - old style trackpads with physical click - the new ones give me cognitive dissonance In terms of touch bar - it's mixed. I really miss the physical escape key ( but then I'm an emacs user ), but quite like the context dependence of the rest - as day to day escape is the only one that's really memory mapped. So can't we have a physical escape key and the rest be touch bar?
  • FabHK 7y ago
    > produce a proper Pro laptop! Hmm, I'm afraid they listen and produce a $15k laptop... But ok, the MacBook Air is still in the lineup.
    • DrScientist 7y ago
      Exactly - road warriors, who want lightness and style ( sales and senior management ) over substance can get an Air. Serious users - developers, scientists, artists - want a serious machine.
  • joeframbach 7y ago
    Sounds like you want a hackintosh thinkpad
    • DrScientist 7y ago
      Except I want the Apple - it just works - part of the unified hardware/software stack. If I want something with flaky sound/wireless drivers and sluggish graphics performance- I build my own linux thinkpad laptop :-) I mean that - I have one - love linux, but not blind to it's problems.
  • pentae 7y ago
    You should just get the new Macbook Air thats being referenced in the article. Proper keyboard, No stupid touch bar, but still has Touch ID. Great machine.
• b3b0p 7y ago
  I think I'm definitely in the minority here on this community, but I actually don't mind the keyboard and TouchBar. The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the real world being able to for example like my Thinkpad of past take it out or replace it or clean it. Similar case could be said for the battery. The Touch Bar I don't mind and like. Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me anyway since I have small hands with short reach. I look at it as an evolution of the finger print reader you would often see in previous years on other laptops. Plus, it's programmable, which you would think the creative and entrepreneur bunch here would love and find many hacks and ways to take advantage of. I guess not. I do look forward to any changes Apple decides though. The only Apple keyboard and computer I hated was the Titanium PowerBook. The keyboard on that and the fragility of the whole computer was terrible. My favorite so far as been the Aluminum PowerBook G4 12 and 17. Followed by the first MacBook Pro.
  • bad_user 7y ago
    > Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me I'm mapping Caps Lock to Control, because it's way more useful. Yes, I'm an Emacs user primarily, but I know Vim users that do the same. You can't remap Caps Lock twice. And what will happen when Caps Lock itself will be gone?
    • jen20 7y ago
      You can map caps lock twice - karibiner allows you to map taps to be escape and held down to be control. I have used this for over a decade.
    • TheRealDunkirk 7y ago
      I remap Command to Caps, because I got used to Ctrl being there as a Sun admin, and now Command usually works where I expect Ctrl. At least Apple makes it easy to remap, though you have to remap every mechanical keyboard you own. ;-) I can't believe that it still takes a registry hack (and a re-login) on Windows.
• epanchin 7y ago
  I don’t own a Mac, but on behalf of anyone who has ever shared a room or train with that click clackedy mess, thank you Apple.
• bartq 7y ago
  I own MacBook 12 inch with 2nd gen of this keyboard from 2017 and actually like it more than on MacBook Pros that I got from a company I worked for. It seems to be a bit different, like click is smaller and is quieter. In MacBook 12 it matches whole laptop philosophy of being the thinest and lightest and even has smaller trackpad that you doesn't accidentally touch while typing.
• aleem 7y ago
  Apple has squandered a lot of its goodwill. It reminds me of my relationship with Microsoft products. As long as they were shipping, they were making money in the short term because people were coerced to buy in. For 5 damn years the Air didn't get a Retina display. Right now, I can't buy 2.8Ghz Macbook Pro unless I get the TouchBar. I can't buy an Air unless I settle for much lower specs. The dongles and USB-C are a mess. The 2-meters-at-most charging cables are a downgrade which will mean shorter battery life due to lesser plugging in. The lack of Magsafe is a downgrade, they removed a feature. The lack of any port variety which my 2013 Macbook Air did exceedingly well is a major downgrade. Consumers must carry a variety of dongles because the laptops don't offer a variety of ports. Profits are fine as long as they don't lead to perverse behavior. Apple needs to stop playing these fucking games and ship some pragmatism. The Apple of Cook is reminiscent of the Microsoft of Ballmer. He is totally out of touch with the product -- the very thing that Jobs inculcated.
  • schuke 7y ago
    I didn’t even mind the non-retina display on the Air. But ffs give me an IPS panel at least. For years I see it being called the best laptop again and again by tech journalists. I always wondered if I was in a parallel universe.
    • dhritzkiv 7y ago
      Despite not having IPS, I would still consider the Air of yesteryear to be the best laptop (for most people). I had the 2012 and 2014 models and found they were the perfect balance of form factor, build quality, and non-pro performance. I haven't evaluated the latest Retina Air, but if it improves on the non-Retina air with a better display and TouchID, it's still probably the best laptop for most people.
  • parasubvert 7y ago
    See, I use a retina MBP touchbar and really don't agree. Apple has made some missteps but it's still the best pro laptop for my uses. Over two years with one replaced keyboard (because I spilled wine on it!) and no sticking keys. USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe wasn't that great (comes off too easily). Moving back to older USB ports really would make no sense. They're obsolete. If you have older peripherals, get the dongles. We've been using dongles since the VGA/DVI days or Serial/USB days, so I really don't get the problem with them. Life moves on. I have a need for HDMI and VGA and Mini DisplayPort and old USB... not to mention lightning. MUCH rather would have a single standard of multi-port w/ dongles than a mess of fixed ports. Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m (edit: 2m!) power cable and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've had, though I suppose third party ones exist.
• sansnomme 7y ago
  Apple does have a patent for glass keyboard that uses haptic.
  • kkarakk 7y ago
    jesus christ, don't let apple bring that evil into the world on a macbook. on an ipad maybe but if it's on a mac i'll have to carry around my bt keyboard everywhere and that's no bueno
• peeters 7y ago
  It was the reason I bought an XPS 13 instead of MBP when I got a new laptop. Wonder how many advocates they lost amongst the professional segment.
  • Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    There was (in my filter bubble) a pretty big wave of people moving away (or at least looking) after Apple introduced their touchbar models; I wouldn't be surprised if they felt that in their numbers. Or if they didn't because lower volume but higher price can even one another out, I guess.
• gigatexal 7y ago
  Yeah! The new MacBook Pro is looking mighty attractive now.
• areejs 7y ago
  Well good riddance. They have become ridiculously expensive
• nottorp 7y ago
  I wonder how much this will affect sales between now and the 2020 model. As a 2018 owner, I strongly recommend everyone who can to hold out until they change the keyboard...
• Medicalidiot 7y ago
  I recently bought a MBP, my first ever Mac, and it is absolutely amazing. Smooth, fast, secure, and the trackpad is an incredible experience. My only significant complaint I have of it is the keyboard. If Apple replaces only the keyboard, the MBP is the undisputed best laptop available today.
• tzakrajs 7y ago
  I’m a tiny bit upset. I really liked the keys becoming lower profile. I don’t get any joy out of expending extra energy depressing buttons. For example, mechanical keyboards give me extreme RSI wrist pain from straining to push down all of the switches. Secretly I was hoping Apple would create a haptic capacitive touch keyboard with a display behind it.
  • peeters 7y ago
    Is it possible you were thinking you had to bottom out the keys on a mechanical keyboard? Good switches have a fairly long travel, but it's important to note they're not designed to be bottomed out, they're designed to be pushed to the activation point and then released. Where that activation point is may be harder to detect on some switches, but "clicky" switches like Cherry Blues have a strong tactile indicator.
    • tzakrajs 7y ago
      I totally agree about bottoming out. It's more about the amount of force needed to trigger the switch, which on a capactive touch would be 0. I use o-rings too to decrease the length of the throw and to make bottoming out quieter and less impactful if it happens on accident. Mechanical keyboards just don't agree with my hands and wrists sadly.
• lajawfe 7y ago
  I can't stop but speculate if departure of Ive had anything to do with this. I guess there was a lot of push-back internally about this, but because of Ive, they had to endure 4 generations of butterfly switches. Touchbar also is just a resource hog for nothing extraordinarily useful. I haven't seen people use it too often. I bet they did user studies and found out that the Touchbar wasn't the new interaction method they hoped it would be. And now, they are planning to introduce new macs without them. I bet Ive feels bad about having to see his decisions being rolled back. Anyway, I hope the rumored 16' Macbook pro actually caters to the professionals by prioritizing thermals over thinness, and if one can wish, it would be nice if Magsafe could ride this rollback train.
  • ianai 7y ago
    It’s pretty suggestive that Ive leaving was precipitated by this. He may have been forcing the keyboard against criticism. I’m sure he had huge clout from his big successes over the years. Good riddance, I say. I hope they make a dramatic back step on their laptops.
  • rando4321 7y ago
    It's seemed wildly obvious to me that Ive, whatever good work he did under Jobs, did horrible work without Jobs to constrain him. I hope that Apple returns to making quality hardware without Ive present.
    • adt2bt 7y ago
      Outside of the keyboard fiasco what else has Apple designed that’s so bad? I quite like Face ID, the latest gen iPad Pro, and even the new Mac mini, and Mac Pro. Sure the keyboards were bad, but like it or not Apple has a pretty obvious goal to get MacBooks as thin and light as possible. At some point they needed a switch from the existing keyboard design to make it thinner.
      • pcurve 7y ago
        iOS 7 with zero affordance was slap in the face. It was epitome of form over function. Unfortunately the entire joined the bandwagon and it took yeas to dial back and undo the damage and or people just got used to it.
• NoblePublius 7y ago
  If I can’t get discrete graphics WITHOUT a Touch Bar in October, I’m buying a Surface.
• hownottowrite 7y ago
  My late 2017 MacBook Pro just started exhibiting signs of the butterfly effect. Not looking forward to giving up the machine for a couple days only to have it fail again. For me, the touchbar is also useless except as an annoying feature that tries to reactivate Siri or suddenly creates a new document when I overkey. Such a poor design. It’s sad because other than the fact that I hate it I actually love the machine.
• blauditore 7y ago
  I see many people complain about Apple products recently, but very few actually moving away to alternatives. It seems many are caught in the comfort zone of that walled garden, not to say locked in. This is why I started avoiding Apple products many years ago. Watching things evolve "from the outside" now I find it sad and funny at the same time.
  • kkarakk 7y ago
    HP spectre and Dell XPS 13 are the laptops that people silently moved away to. These laptops saw a crazy amount of iteration(relative to other companies) to grab the apple dissatisfied niche. They're pretty successful, i see a lot of ex-macbook people who disliked the keyboard/touchbar switch with some variation of them
  • torstenvl 7y ago
    It is possible for something to be simultaneously (a) crappy; (b) expensive; and (c) the best option available. Prior to 2006, I was a hardcore Linux (and then FreeBSD) fan, but I had to use Windows for a lot of work- and school-related tasks. When Mac switched to x86, I felt less nervous about investing in it, knowing I could go back to Windows/Linux if I wanted. When I switched, what I came to realize was that Apple - and Jobs specifically - was mostly not content to just be the best option available. They thought through the last little details. They added accelerometers to hard drive enclosures to stop the disk if the laptop fell. They made power cables attached by magnets so you wouldn't send your laptop flying if the cord was pulled. They had a philosophy that the computer should Just Work and - for the most part - their execution showed how dedicated they were to that. Apple is no longer in that league. Hardware failures, design failures, software failures including goto fail and root password vulnerabilities... Apple simply isn't a perfectionist company anymore. Sure, there is a litany of "What about..." comparisons you can make from times Jobs got defensive instead of being a perfectionist, but this is different. It used to be the exception. Now it's the rule. That's why people are upset. Something that used to be reliably great is now merely better than the rest - a low bar. For many, there isn't a better option to turn to. If you want a mostly hassle-free Unix experience with wide COTS software support, macOS is your best choice. But it's a lot sloppier than it used to be and that justifiably causes some angst.
• therealbilly 7y ago
  I have the 2017 MacBook Pro. It did take a while to get use to the keyboard. Now I find other keyboards are mushy by comparison. On the touchbar, never really thought much about it. Seems to work okay for me. I'm amused by some of the folks that just seem to hate the later MacBook Pro's. Their hatred seems misplaced and over-wrought.
• commandersaki 7y ago
  While good recognition in the flaws of the keyboard mechanics, this still doesn't fix: - no esc key (ok fine, ctrl-[) - oversized trackpad where palms in resting position actuate it - the "fat" keys with little to no gaps - the weird oversized and awkward arrow keys Seriously, just go back to 2015 keyboard/trackpad.
• dreamcompiler 7y ago
  I'm still nursing along my 2011 MBP. It's my work truck. Everything in it has been replaced or upgraded, but it still works well. The point is that it was possible to upgrade it myself. I won't buy another Apple product unless it has that feature. Oh, and no dongles necessary.
  • reneherse 7y ago
    I was doing the same until last week, happily chugging along on my pet project when my 2011 15" MBP screen went white as a ghost. Diagnostics all point toward a problem with the GPU; apparently that generation has a known defect that's only (temporarily) repairable by replacing the logic board. A repair too costly for me to justify. My recommendation would be to avoid graphically intense work if you hope to continue using the machine for a long time. I was seriously bummed when my machine died. Fortunately I was able to buy one of the very last Apple refurbed 2015 MBPs, which is still user upgradable to some extent, and avoids all the horrendous design trade-offs of the more recent generations. Best of luck keeping the old machine going!
• strikelaserclaw 7y ago
  thank god, the butterfly keyboard sucks.
• shawkinaw 7y ago
  Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard? I like the feel of the low travel and the clickiness, whenever I use an old style MacBook the keys feel mushy. I have had reliability problems though. Mostly I’ve had keys that don’t respond, but have always been able to fix those with compressed air. But once I had a sticky key that popped every other time I pressed it, that required a free Apple repair.
  • hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
    > Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard? Yes
    • lloeki 7y ago
      >> Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard? > Yes No. I like it. To me it feels precise enough for a laptop keyboard, and better than the good but mushy previous version, with which I could have tactile feedback but no key event from time to time. The only issue I have with it is the Damocles sword of reliability (crossing fingers here, it's been perfectly fine for now) and the up/down arrow keys but I'm a liberal user of vim as an editor and generally emacs shortcuts so it doesn't bother me too much.
  • RyJones 7y ago
    No. I love it. The only downside is it's hard to take notes in meetings without it sounding like I'm shooting a machine gun
  • hombre_fatal 7y ago
    The problem is how fast they wear and fail. Especially if you're not dainty on the keyboard. Also, they lose their clickiness rapidly. It would be a great keyboard if you got a new one every month. But I expect mine to last the full life of the laptop just like my 2015 Air did.
  • kkarakk 7y ago
    i love it but in the time i owned it, the thing jammed up full of dust/crumbs and failed 3/4 times necessitating trips to the service center coz compressed air just wasn't doing the job
• syadegari 7y ago
  Cannot wait to hear what they're going to say about "reinventing keyboard"!
• wintorez 7y ago
  They only need to drop touchbar, bring back magsafe, and then we'll be back to sanity!
  • trynumber9 7y ago
    I'm still using a dual core. Apple thinks if you want a high end laptop, you want a touch bar. I don't, I played with it and returned it. I vastly prefer the real keys.
• Dunedan 7y ago
  Maybe they'll use that opportunity to also fix the cursor key layout to resemble an upside down T again.
• dboreham 7y ago
  Shout out for the current generation Surface keyboard (both full size, and, surprisingly also the Go). A thin and light keyboard that is almost pleasing to use.
• consultSKI 7y ago
  The glory days are long gone.
• bitL 7y ago
  I actually think that ASUS ZenBook Pro Duo is now much more innovative than recent MacBooks and I'll likely get one next year for a "travel Deep Learning" workstation with a great design (resembles classic 8-bit computers a bit).
• bitL 7y ago
  Apple needs to invest in force field research to ship a flat keyboard with keys simulated by force field, keeping fingers away! That will be the realization of Jony Ive's modernist aluminium/glass plate dreams. No more moving parts!
• deepaksurti 7y ago
  All said and done, the problem with butterfly keyboards is the reliability. We don't associate 'unreliability' with Apple devices and screwing up on the keyboard is a big screwup because for those whom it won't work, it just makes your laptop unusable. Hence the justified pushback. That did not happen with removal of CD drive, adding USB C only ports, removing magsafe. All these cause some painful transitions, they did not make your laptop unusable. FWIW, I have 2018 MBP and so far the keyboard has worked fine, though I don't enjoy the lack of tactile feedback; I can see the perspective of those who bought it and the butterfly became kaput.
• Calamitous 7y ago
  Am I the only person that would love a thicker laptop with more features from Apple? I don't need thin. Thin doesn't excite me. More battery would excite me. More ports. More anything but thin.
• fastball 7y ago
  Buy a used 2015 MBP to tide you over until 2020.
• Ecolog 7y ago
  Anybody still buying MacBooks doesn't know what they are doing... A Lenovo Thinkpad would destroy it in every way imaginable, but marketing is more important that real world function
  • cuchoi 7y ago
    Some people (like me) still prefer MacBooks due to software rather than hardware. Building a Hackintosh is not pain-free and, although the Linux experience has improved a lot, is still not at the same level.
• envolt 7y ago
  Please bring back the MagSafe magnetic connector, so I can upgrade my MacBook
• sergiotapia 7y ago
  You can pry my early 2015 macbook air from my cold dead hands! Easily the best laptop I have ever used, sturdy, cool to touch, lightweight, keyboard is fantastic and never hurts to use for a long time. I want Apple to release this same model with updated specs, why ruin a great formula by adding touchbar which I never ever ever use. It's like the R&D department/marketing had to use their budget or lose it and they cooked something up which made no sense but looked cool in promos.
• Justsignedup 7y ago
  Better switches, a smaller mouse pad, and destroy the touch bar. Let's go back to 2014 and be happy again.
• bcheung 7y ago
  Apple has a history of really bad design ideas in my opinion. Anyone remember the older Mac towers. Whose bright idea was it to stick razor sharp edges on the handles to pick up a 30 lbs box? Or requiring people to use a metal file on their MBP so they aren't resting their wrists on a razor sharp edge. Several years later, it is still a pain having to use dongles to plug in USB devices. Now give us back the escape key too.
• sandinmyjoints 7y ago
  I was prepared to hate this keyboard when I bought a 2019 MBP bc my beloved 2015 MBP just wasn’t cutting it conpute-wise anymore, but...I don’t. It’s not bad, maybe I even slightly prefer it to the old one. I have experienced some sticking on the “l” key and that IS super annoying and needs to be solved. But the functional experience is...good. I miss MagSafe and usb-a and the touchbar is worthless so I’ve got gripes but to my surprise the keyboard really isn’t one of them!
• intopieces 7y ago
  The hand-wringing and breathless condemnation around this keyboard borders on hysterics, so I will be glad when a new design shifts the criticism to something more interesting.
• lostgame 7y ago
  I think one of the bigger failures with the Touch Bar is that it's not available for a desktop computer - it would be far more advantageous for developers to support it in useful ways and invest developer time in it, if we could buy an external one, especially for an iMac Pro, for instance, where it could be included. My two cents.
• stunt 7y ago
  They really need to give a proper apologize to all customers for it.
• peacelilly 7y ago
  Thank you Apple. This was needed! I have a bricked 2017 MBP that I don't want to fix. It's too expensive to fix and not worth it breaking again.
• musicale 7y ago
  Whenever I type on my original/2012 "retina" MacBook Pro it is a revelation. When I type on the 2016 model... I try to use an external keyboard. I'm pretty sure the 2015 non-butterfly MBP was the best laptop Apple has made to date.