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Chinese developers fear the tech war will cost them access to GitHub

• Gonzih 7y ago
  Lots of languages do use github as centralized dependency service. This is scary.
• howiroll 7y ago
  This website gave me the worst experience with iPhone.
• pjmlp 7y ago
  Just like it happened on the past with PGP, this is just yet another step for countries to start thinking about whom they want their tech stacks to depend on. EDIT: Just imagine this taken to the extreme, OS, programming languages, libraries, any product being developed by US companies. Today is China, tomorrow who knows.
  • Boulth 7y ago
    Out of curiosity what happened with PGP?
    • sah2ed 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_i...
• zemanel 7y ago
  that website has one really annoying ad system. For me, scrolling down the page scrolls down the ads, not the page ... the state of content in 2019 ...
  • beeskneecaps 7y ago
    The fonts didn’t even render for me in iOS safari. Also they prevent the back button from working.
• sschueller 7y ago
  This is absurd and if github decides this is the case I will delete all my repositories and put them somewhere else.
  • jfoster 7y ago
    Difficult to imagine that GitHub would make that decision without being forced into it.
    • mtgx 7y ago
      Depends how eager Microsoft is to "gain access to the Chinese market".
      • luckylion 7y ago
        And how eager they are to be on good terms with the US government, I suppose.
      • DeonPenny 7y ago
        Never very at this point. Basically no one has and it seems like everyone largely has given up
    • matz1 7y ago
      Can't github fight back ? Like apple fighting the FBI?
      • Avamander 7y ago
        s/github/microsoft/ Microsoft seems rather friendly to governments (e.g. NSAKEY).
    • est31 7y ago
      What about Google blocking Android access from Huawei? Have they been forced to make that decision as well? I don't see them complaining, possibly to still have the government available as a possible customer and because they got harmed by the Chinese government's trade policies themselves. Similarly, Microsoft has the US government as a customer too. They might instruct GitHub leadership to not complain and simply follow the requests by the US government.
• smudgymcscmudge 7y ago
  This seems like a promotion for gitee.
• oconnor663 7y ago
  Another recent article about GitHub in China: https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/709490855/github-has-become-a-haven-for-chinas-censored-internet-users https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/709490855/github-has-become-a...
• sschueller 7y ago
  What is the name of the distributed github? I think it may be based on activitypub. EDIT: https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed
  • tannhaeuser 7y ago
    git?
  • vector_spaces 7y ago
    Here's another based on the Secure Scuttlebutt protocol https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications.html#git-ssb https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications.html#git-ssb
    • hobofan 7y ago
      git-ssb is pretty nice, and I'd recommend anyone interested to check it out! The last time I checked it out it suffered from some incompatibility bugs from different parts of the stack, though, which are sadly not unusual with a project with such a large surface area and high code churn.
  • ignaloidas 7y ago
    Git is DVCS, D means Distributed. Anyone can run their git and manage incoming contributions by email, which is distributed, and what git is built to use. See https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distribute...
    • sschueller 7y ago
      Yes obviously, but there is added functionality from a service like github/gitlab. Pull requests, issues etc. We wouldn't be using and paying for a service like Github if git had all the features we want/need.
      • ignaloidas 7y ago
• viach 7y ago
  Especially that GitHub can be used as a collaborative wiki. So dangerous if you think about it.
  • Mary-Ellen 7y ago
    Wikipedia is a collaborative one And is accessible in China Unless has change No dangerous Laughable in my opinion
• Foober223 7y ago
  Git and Github are are like philosophically opposed. Git is distributed. Who cares if a hosting server is lost? 5 minutes and you're up on a different server.
  • Arnt 7y ago
    Distributed doesn't mean that noone makes choices. If you want to file a PR you need access to whatever the maintainer chose. If the maintainer wants PRs via github and won't accept them via email, your alternatives are to access github, not submit the PR, or have a proxy access github for you. Possibly a human proxy.
  • dmos62 7y ago
    For practically every distributed or decentralized tech we have, there is a tech that complements it and at the same time negates it. The banal example is cryptocurrencies and centralized exchanges. Part of the reason is that there's just so much money to be made from centralization and monopolization, but it's surely not the whole story.
    • TeMPOraL 7y ago
      There are many other parts to this story of centralization, not all of them bad. Centralized solutions are always more efficient than decentralized ones, for both graph-theory reasons and economies of scale. They also tend to be more convenient to use for typical use cases. Centralization of trust also has utility. Then there are the nefarious reasons to centralize - control and influence.
  • nsomaru 7y ago
    Lots of people seem to derive value from Github, especially the social aspects and the exposure it gives to your project. That said, I'd love a decentralised alternative based on IPFS or somesuch. There's probably something out there already, perhaps this may be impetus enough to cause devs to move? Seems unlikely.
  • omginternets 7y ago
    Tell me, how do you search and collaborate on code that's fully distributed (in the git sense)?
• lagadu 7y ago
  This is great. The US has effectively (if unwittingly) given the biggest step in history towards actually decentralizing some of the most critical web services away from being under the control of a single government. I legit hope they keep doubling down on this policy, as we all win from this course of action.
  • toxicFork 7y ago
    Have they taken the step towards decentralizing, or are they creating more reasons for people to make that step instead? I guess in some contexts that counts as the step anyway...
  • heraclius 7y ago
    I hope that the outcome you describe occurs. However, it seems equally likely that a centralised alternative will appear in China, just as there are local Chinese variants of the services Google, FB, et al. provide. Indeed, this would be in the interests of the government, who would then be able to have GitHub without the political ructions that accompany it.
    • gmueckl 7y ago
      A code hosting service that can be persuaded to not host projects that can inconvenience the government (or party)? I guess this sounds attractive to a certain kind of people.
      • inanutshellus 7y ago
        Where "certain kind of people" would be "all people in China" since their options would be limited to either (a) use said service or (b) not access the blocked original version.
        • heraclius 7y ago
          Ceteris paribus, a blocked service is better than no service, yes. But (1) VPNs exist, (2) decentralisation is surely not so infeasible as to rule out evasion of various blocks, and (3) the government might even decide to prioritise scientific development over absolute political control. (Certainly it seems that the scientists within the party are agitating for freer access to foreign papers.)
• omginternets 7y ago
  Jesus this scroll-hijacking is an abomination.
• christi_meyer 7y ago
  This might be how we enter full scale cyberwarfare.
  • chillacy 7y ago
    Given how much infrastructure runs on old versions of XP (everywhere), that’s a scary thought
  • mensetmanusman 7y ago
    A million fold improvement over real war.
• inlined 7y ago
  This may be controversial, but that would be one of the few parts of the trade war that I wouldn’t mind. Non-Chinese business must operate with a Chinese partner to do business in the mainland. Many assume that this structure is intended to leak secrets and the Chinese company will end up taking over and competing. To be a “fair” actor in the global economy, China should allow foreign businesses to operate in the mainland, subject to Chinese law.
  • Mary-Ellen 7y ago
    "China should allow foreign businesses to operate in the mainland, subject to Chinese law" Foreign companies are allowed to operate in China , subject to Chinese law
    • wiggler00m 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterprise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterpris...
      • Mary-Ellen 7y ago
        Your link just confirms what I say
        • _pmf_ 7y ago
          Speech in China is also free, according to Chinese law, so you're technically correct.
          • Mary-Ellen 7y ago
            Same goes for your country Technically
        • analognoise 7y ago
          Artists/protesters don't get 'disappeared' in the US, unlike in China: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/07/23/chinese-protester-splashed-ink-xi-jinping-poster-sent-psychiatric-hospital-report/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/07/23/chinese-protester-spla... How much 'free speech's is there in a place that bans Winnie the Pooh because of memes: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-winnie-the-pooh-film-to-stop-comparisons-to-president-xi https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/... Let's just admit China doesn't have free speech in practice?
• sehugg 7y ago
  Is this just about Github Enterprise Server? If so, the article doesn't really make that clear, and it seems like a red herring. AFAIK Microsoft does not currently restrict access to Github.com to any country, and they even make a censorship-friendly version of LinkedIn for the PRC.
  • danarmak 7y ago
    It could also be about Github private repos, which cost money, and therefore are a business relationship. If Huawei has a private repo on Github, is Microsoft now required to delete their account?
  • paranoidrobot 7y ago
    Perhaps, but also a huge number of public OSS projects. To take an example of a large OSS Project hosted on Github: The Microsoft .NET Core framework[1]. If I want to contribute a code change - their guidelines require me to submit a pull request on github. If I want to submit an issue - their guidelines also require me to log the issue on github. This is not unusual for most OSS projects which use Github as their central collaboration point. Today that's all A-OK for Chinese devs. The scenario discussed is if the trade-war extends, and either the US or Chinese governments block access to Github for Chinese users. Now, perhaps it's easy enough for someone to set up a mirror copy of everything in China - but that's going to limit or block collaboration. Bug fixes, changes, issues - they're not going to get across as easily. I can't email a pull request to the .NET CoreFX team saying "Hey, I fixed this". This is going to lead to fragmentation of popular OSS projects, and will be an overall net-loss for everyone. [1] https://github.com/dotnet/corefx https://github.com/dotnet/corefx
• yomly 7y ago
  Is anyone here a dev working in China? Would love to know a bit about what dev culture is like in China, for instance: What are dev practises like - do people do Agile / Scrum? Is "post-agile" (sorry) scepticism a thing? What about TDD and CI/CD? How about technologies, do people develop on Linux, are they using git, are american libraries/frameworks big - are people using React etc? How about things like FP and niche languages - is there much appetite for people experimenting with new tech/languages or are Python/Java the defacto choices for application work and everything else shunned? Is there a Chinese-equivalent to GitHub - is engineering in China big enough that they can have their own independent OSS culture? (Is companies contributing back to OSS a thing?) EDIT: to add one last question - are developers seen as feature-factories or is the relationship between product and developers/tech more flat/harmonious than that?
  • decster 7y ago
    Chinese dev here, currently at xiaomi, worked for VMware and Baidu > What are dev practises like - do people do Agile / Scrum? Not full/standard practice I think, normally just standup meeting I guess.., when I was in VMware China, some projects used scrum. > Is "post-agile" (sorry) scepticism a thing? No > What about TDD and CI/CD? I'd say TDD and CI are common. > How about technologies, do people develop on Linux, are they using git, Yes, all the time. > are american libraries/frameworks big - are people using React etc? Yes > How about things like FP and niche languages - is there much appetite for people experimenting with new tech/languages or are Python/Java the defacto choices for application work and everything else shunned? Yes, go/rust is gaining popularity. > Is there a Chinese-equivalent to GitHub - is engineering in China big enough that they can have their own independent OSS culture? (Is companies contributing back to OSS a thing?) No, there are some github like services, e.g. gitee.com, but the scale and user base is not at same scale. > are developers seen as feature-factories or is the relationship between product and developers/tech more flat/harmonious than that? There are lots of jokes about product&developer here in China, so you can imagine.
  • horyzen 7y ago
    To answer your last question, there not a significant Chinese-equivalent to GitHub yet, partly because GitHub is still largely accessible in China. A lot of Chinese tech giants have been active on GitHub and have plenty of repos: https://github.com/Tencent https://github.com/Tencent https://github.com/alibaba https://github.com/alibaba https://github.com/bilibili https://github.com/bilibili https://github.com/baidu https://github.com/baidu
• profalseidol 7y ago
  Wait what? How would you lose access to Github? Ain't there a tone of ways to get something from the Internet?
• singularity2001 7y ago
  Blocking github would hurt the Chinese government more than it would help it: Unlike facebook, github contains very valuable content.
• jaimex2 7y ago
  I'm surprised the great firewall doesn't block github. There are bound to be github pages hosting information on Chinas government actions.
  • cududa 7y ago
    Guessing your a bit new to the dev world? They tried in 2013 then developers and companies lost their shit. However in 2015 China did ddos Github for its hosting of tools to circumvent the great firewall. Github was dead for an entire day
• vectorEQ 7y ago
  "Fears about losing access to GitHub might be overblown. Apache Software Foundation (ASF), another US-based organization that offers open source software, published an announcement on Wednesday saying that open source software and collaboration on open source code are not subject to the EAR." just that. it says it on the article even. and honestly, any of the chinese giants now using github would have plenty of resources and probarbly motivation to set up a similar service if worst comes to worst. then people collaborating with chines would just hop over to that as reverse direction should be just fine to collaborate.
  • jopsen 7y ago
    Lol, I doubt the trade war will block GitHub. The Chinese will eventually do that themselves.. It would be hilarious if China asked for a website to be unblocked -- especially, if they end up blocking it later.
  • cududa 7y ago
    The concern is losing access to packages and repositories. Sure the code isn’t subject to EAR, but their distribution mechanisms sure as shit are (as in, their digital properties). Worst comes to worse software in China is all built on old/ outdated packages they already have in the country.
• clubm8 7y ago
  Interesting considering China blocked them at one point https://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/01/21/the-chinese-government-appears-to-have-completely-blocked-github-via-dns/ https://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/01/21/the-chinese-governmen...
• DevX101 7y ago
  Github has already been blocked by China, albeit briefly. After Chinese bloggers posted 'sensitive' content on the site, Github was blocked for a few days in 2013 until there was a big pushback from developers in China, including Kai Fu Lee, who's well respected by tech and government in China. The outcry forced a backtracking from the government. I wouldn't recommend this, but if a movement started where developers of highly popular projects started putting political content in their README.md, China would probably revisit the issue and consider blocking again.
  • jopsen 7y ago
    I'm surprised they haven't since lots of people use GitHub as a blogging platform.
• KirinDave 7y ago
  I would think the outrageous antics with the Chinese governmnt directly attacking Github and using attacks with extremely wide reaching effects (using Baidu analytics links as a javascript injection attack) would uh... be more likely to damage access to Github. But ignoring that, it seems to me like increasingly we're wanting distributed (dare I even say: federated) code forges even outside of China as people realize quite how overly and dangerously centralized their infrastructure and company are over Github.
  • dijit 7y ago
    No love (or hate) for China or the US; but from a European perspective it does shock me how much we rely on the USA. As a bit of a tangent, we recently learned that we couldn't provide service to people living in Crimea, because google cloud block them, because google cloud is beholden to US regulators. Now, the EU doesn't have any sanctions on Crimea itself (because that would legitimise the annexation), but they have sanctions against Russia instead. So, we're defacto instituting the will of the US by choosing a US operator- and I think this is true of basically everything we use today. I can't think of a single tech company outside of Spotify that is not owned by the US which is popular in Europe. Not only do we not "own our data" our digital economy is entirely dependent on the US not being malicious.
    • cududa 7y ago
      Well, what in your mind might be the reasons people of talent leave Europe to come to the US to start their tech empires
      • dijit 7y ago
        Probably because US companies buy European ones. See Skype, Nokia, Shazam. China’s doing it too. They bought ARM shortly after Brexit. I don’t doubt that there is a migratory factor, though I don’t believe it’s primarily due to salary or other compensation as I assume you’re inferring- a cornucopia of tech giants is going to attract talent from the world over. So a consequence of centralisation is more centralisation.
• averros 7y ago
  Oh, woes. How people ever managed to develop any software before github?
• michaelmure 7y ago
  As another data point, I've seen more contribution and feedbacks to https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug (distributed bug tracker) than I expected from the chinese community.
• wybiral 7y ago
  The censorship war is more likely to cost them GitHub access since it's been used to bypass state censorship so much lately.
• draw_down 7y ago
  Yeah, that’s a shame. Guess they could make their own Github.
• tracer4201 7y ago
  The trade war makes no sense to me. My conservative family members are all for free markets without government intervention. Now they’re all angry about China. When American jobs went to China, they would have had a heart attack if an American official tried to dictate what these companies could or could not do. They went overseas so shareholders could increase profits. Meanwhile, China propped up so many of its industries, which was well within their rights to develop their country. So how are the Chinese bad guys here? If anything, corporate America was greedy, and now corporate America feels threatened that China is growing too fast. You threw American workers under the bus and sent the jobs to China, but you were hoping China would stay poor. For all of its huge faults and despite the human rights abuses, the Chinese government can actually get things done as opposed to here with our annual traditions of government shutdown threats and now extended periods of actual shutdowns. Look at the progress China made since 2000. What was America doing? Greed caused a recession, we’ve fought endless wars, where one of the chief architects is now head of NSA instead of being in prison. Sure we have more technology, but is the average American better off if you look at wages? We’re more divided than ever. The jobs numbers look great in 50 years? Great job! None of those people will be ever able to retire and don’t have $500 for an emergency.
  • pbourke 7y ago
    Do you think that corporate America somehow wants this trade war? I think it would have preferred to stay in the TPP trade deal and operate under a predictable regulatory environment.
    • tracer4201 7y ago
      I don’t know. I do know my conservative friends and conservative personalities all seem to support the trade war.
      • kiran-rao 7y ago
        I believe a large part is identity politics. A symptome is that a voter will agree with the policy of their preferred candidates, rather than choosing a candidate based on their preferred policy. I'm implying this for both sides of the aisle.
• Tepix 7y ago
  Back when Microsoft aquired github, concerned users created "Teahub" which turned into Codeberg. It's a German non-profit with the website https://codeberg.org/ https://codeberg.org/
• hartator 7y ago
  Our parents warn us to not stand too close to the tv, never met online people in IRL, and never ride in a stranger's car. Now we have Oculus, Tinder, and Uber. I am sure whatever we are worrying now will be as irrelevant.
• coin 7y ago
  What is with that website? It’s barely usable on the latest IPad Pro. I wish articles would just stick to HTML.
• tdaltonc 7y ago
  You can't talk about GitHub in China without talking about 996. Github is the only western 'social network' that is allowed to operate in China with strong encryption. That means it's the only place to talk about politically sensitive issues without being censored or harassed. https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU