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Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

• danso 8y ago
  Related past HN threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150
• Brendinooo 8y ago
  Headline is a bit misleading: The IRS does not currently offer free online tax filing, and bipartisan Congressional leaders are seeking to codify this status quo.
  • danso 8y ago
    Here's the summary of Sec 1102, as linked to from the Ways & Means Committee's homepage: https://waysandmeans.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/ways-means-committee-passes-historic-legislation-redesign-irs https://waysandmeans.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/w... > Sec. 1102. IRS Free File Program. The IRS currently works with electronic tax preparation services to provide free tax preparation software and electronically fillable forms. This program is known as the IRS Free File program. Generally, there is no fee for taxpayers using the Free File program provided they meet certain income thresholds. This provision codifies the existing Free File program and requires the IRS to continue to work with private stakeholders to maintain, improve, and expand the program. The provision also requires Free File program members to continue to provide basic fillable forms to all taxpayers. This provision is estimated to have no revenue impact over the 10-year budget window.
    • KingMachiavelli 8y ago
      There's an income requirements and, at least in practice, you cannot be file 1099-MISCs which means you cannot be 'self employed' which is becoming more and more common (insert buzzphrase here) independent of actual income. Unfortunately, the people most effected by this bill are likely too busy working to afford the time to contact their representatives.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • komali2 8y ago
    I am very confused - last night I filed my taxes in an hour flat on freefillableforms or whatever that terribly named piece of software is. I thought this was a service provided by the IRS?
    • danso 8y ago
      I think freefillableforms.com -- maintained by the Free File Alliance -- is an example of what the article complains about: > The Free File Alliance, a private industry group, says 70% of American taxpayers are eligible to file for free. Those taxpayers, who must make less than $66,000, have access to free tax software provided by the companies. But just 3% of eligible U.S. taxpayers actually use the free program each year. Critics of the program say that companies use it as a cross-marketing tool to upsell paid products, that they have deliberately underpromoted the free option and that it leaves consumer data open to privacy breaches. I've never used it so I wouldn't know if it's chockful of upsell adverts. It's certainly very hard (I couldn't do it, at least not in the past 5 minutes) to find a reference to the Free File Alliance on freefillableforms.com. But this is what is buried on IRS.gov: https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-alliance https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-all... > Free File offers a multi-year agreement between IRS and the Free File Alliance to provide free service(s) to more taxpayers. Previously, free offerings were not consistently available and were subject to modification or discontinuation from year-to-year. With Free File, taxpayers have easy access to IRS.gov, which offers a list of all free offerings on a single web page. Under our agreement, Free File Alliance companies offer both free preparation and free e-filing services. There is no cost to qualifying taxpayers. > Note: We do not endorse any individual Free File Alliance company. While the IRS manages the content of the Free File pages accessible on IRS.gov, it does not retain any taxpayer information entered on the Free File site.
      • lotsofpulp 8y ago
        Free File Fillable Forms are pretty easy to use for anyone, regardless of income. It doesn't hold your hand and walk you through it, but assuming you can read English at a 4th grade level, I feel like you should be able to do it. Not that I think it should be even this complicated to do taxes, but it's not a terrible option. https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f...
• cascom 8y ago
  What propublica left out: To be clear the Intuit’s of the world are not acting altruistically, however they’ve created an odd alliance with anti-tax advocates who 1. Think that any government provided system will favor the government over tax-payers and make it easier to sneak in stealth tax changes and 2. The anti-tax lobby cynically (and correctly) understands that in order to keep taxes unpopular, making them painful is useful.
  • komali2 8y ago
    >sneak in stealth tax changes I don't think we exist in a world where this is possible.
    • javagram 8y ago
      > I don't think we exist in a world where this is possible. The majority of people are pretty ignorant. Look at all the news articles from early in 2019 talking about the size of tax refunds, and people thinking they didn’t get a tax cut because their refund this year was smaller than the one they got last year. In reality, almost everyone got a tax cut (>90% of taxpayers) but that doesn’t necessarily mean a larger refund. Theoretically, filling out the tax forms would help people understand their tax liability. In practice I think a lot of people just tune out numbers beyond the size of their refund.
      • cannonedhamster 8y ago
        Not everyone got a tax cut and the cuts went primarily to businesses and the ultra wealthy. The President also tried to make the cuts look bigger by changing withholding requirements. It doesn't invalidate that most people are ignorant, most people don't even pay any taxes, but if you're moderately well off, have more than one home, and live in a state that actually has a functional state government that provides services to their people, there's a larger possibility that you saw an increase in taxes. No other first world country does taxes the way we do because the IRS already knows how much most people owe.
        • 8y ago
• xbryanx 8y ago
  This is pure anecdote, but... A NOAA employee told me about the time their boss caught holy hell from a Senator because the NWS had the gall to update a particular weather product they offered by adding color to the map. Evidently someone had a business essentially downloading the free NOAA data and improving it by coloring the maps and selling that as a product. When NOAA made it free, they called their Senator in anger. And said Senator slapped NOAA's wrist. Seems like the same school of thought in a much bigger market.
  • nemo44x 8y ago
    Michael Lewis wrote about the NOAA and this exact type of thing in his last book. In essence the NOAA spends lots of tax payer money to collect weather data but can’t do much with it other than give it away exclusively to a handful of entities that can repackage and sell it. The eventual dystopian end state could be where the NOAA can’t alert people to tornados and only those subscribing to a weather service would be alerted to get to safety.
    • wbl 8y ago
      Have you seen weather.gov? They do provide free products.
      • kevin_b_er 8y ago
        For now. The NOAA is headed now by a man who spent 30 years trying to hobble the NWS.
    • moftz 8y ago
      You can get an emergency radio capable of receiving VHF NOAA weather alerts. There is typically at least one of the frequencies within range where ever you are. You can subscribe to weather alerts through RSS on their site as well. https://alerts.weather.gov/ https://alerts.weather.gov/ You can even pass lat/long points to the forecast page and it will pull up the closest weather station, even points in the ocean work. https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=43.4802&lon=-110.7624 https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=43.4802&lon=-1...
• purple-again 8y ago
  This is deeply frustrating. I can not tell you how many people I see paying $200-300 for some random "tax preparer" set up in a corner mall or the front of a WalMart simply because they do not understand there are a number of free resources that would prepare their 1040EZ for them at their income/complexity level. These same people get back a $1500 "return" so they think they are getting a good deal. Its pure greed and theft from some of the most needy members of our society. Absolute shame on everyone involved in this process.
  • zrail 8y ago
    1040EZ no longer exists. It went away with the 1040 redesign this year.
  • nemo44x 8y ago
    Apparently the $150 is worth it to these people over using their agency to google how they could file for free.
    • perfmode 8y ago
      We can’t assume rational agents.
      • acjohnson55 8y ago
        Or perfect information. Or infinite time to acquire information.
  • anilakar 8y ago
    In a libertarian society, a government using tax money to provide services counts as nation state sanctioned violence, but a private company doing the same for profit is called entrepreneurship. EDIT: Keep it coming! Every downvote proves I'm right.
    • nybble41 8y ago
      What exactly were you trying to say? I mean, you're not wrong. Taxes are nation-state sanctioned violence, and private companies providing services in exchange for voluntary payments is correctly referred to as entrepreneurship. These are qualitatively different situations; one involves force and the other does not. The debate is not about the services. They may not be needed by everyone, or in the exact form the government provides, but there would still be at least some demand for them in the market if they weren't provided by the government. The question is whether these services are funded voluntarily or by force, by those who want them or by others who just happen to have the necessary resources.
• dmwallin 8y ago
  Where's the teeth in getting companies to offer a decent Free File option if you removed the threat that got them to create said programs in the first place?
• javagram 8y ago
  > The Free File Alliance, a private industry group, says 70% of American taxpayers are eligible to file for free. Those taxpayers, who must make less than $66,000, have access to free tax software provided by the companies. But just 3% of eligible U.S. taxpayers actually use the free program each year. Critics of the program say that companies use it as a cross-marketing tool to upsell paid products, that they have deliberately underpromoted the free option and that it leaves consumer data open to privacy breaches. During the years I was eligible for this program, I used TurboTax for free through it and it worked fine. It was a basic version that didn’t support complex transactions such as capital gains but for most people making under 66k it would have worked fine. Very interesting to see only 3% use it. It would probably work well for a lot more of those 70%. The paper forms are also easy enough to do manually, but can’t be e-filed and so the refund comes slower.
  • deckar01 8y ago
    This statistic is misleading. Throughout the filing process consumers are bombarded with opportunities to upgrade to a paid tier. They make paying more the default option and demote the controls to continue using the free version to have secondary or cancel-like styling. I had to constantly back out and go back to the free version, because I accidentally opted into a paid tier. Another reason might be that "automatically" filling in your details from uploaded / linked documents is often a paid feature. I uploaded a doc it asked for, it showed me the info, then when I opted for the free tier it cleared the data and made me type it in myself.
    • asdff 8y ago
      Turbotax is a pioneer of dark patterns. Enter anything beyond a w2 and it wants $70.
  • r_klancer 8y ago
    Not quite true! I was planning to complain that Free File Fillable Forms, the only way to e-file for free regardless of income, had been taken away a couple years ago. However, I noticed that it's back for the 2018 tax year. https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... It's very basic -- it's literally just a way to fill out and submit the paper forms electronically (though it does the "add lines 35 and 36"-type arithmetic for you.) But it's an option for you procrastinators who earned more than $66K last year. Relatedly, Massachusetts used to run a free online "TurboTax" program for all. To file your taxes you went to a government website and answered the questions. Unfortunately, that program was canceled a year ago when they upgraded systems, and now the only way to e-file is via a paid preparer.
• alkonaut 8y ago
  I just filed my taxes in 10 seconds using the tax authority's smartphone app. It had pre-filled all my deductions such as interest using info reported from my employer and banks. Apart from bribes from those who make tax software (which should be pretty easy to expose) I can't understand why congress wouldn't want to make paying taxes simple and efficient?
  • keeganjw 8y ago
    Tax prep lobbyist make a lot of campaign contributions and somehow that bribery is 100% legal. Also, there is not a small number of Republicans who think taxes should be hard and confusing to make people hate taxes. They think it would them pass they're super low-tax/no-tax agenda.
  • jermaustin1 8y ago
    There is a podcast episode of "Planet Money" that goes into the history of this [1]. Pretty much it goes: If taxes were easy, people would hate them less, and not fight to abolish them - Grover Norquist. 1: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...
• fsloth 8y ago
  Oh man, I've had government provided automatic filings for ages now (Finland). US is really odd how it emphasizes the benefit of the middleman over the benefit of the individual citizen (it seems). Or have I completely misunderstood what's going on here?
  • tarabanga 8y ago
    More like, corporate interest > citizen interest
    • Symmetry 8y ago
      Corporate pressure is important but the fact that people in the tax preparation industry form a decently sized and committed voting block is even more important.
  • random42_ 8y ago
    You are correct. US Congress (most of the time) legislate in favor of whoever pays more.
  • linuxftw 8y ago
    (in the US) I would trust the government provided tax-return software to provide the smallest refund possible. It will also take $50 billion and 3-4 years to develop, and it will be down from April 1st to May 7th due to overload on the system. Your confirmation emails won't come through, and the database will be hacked and all records leaked within the first 18 months of operation.
    • maxwell 8y ago
      https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/lobby.php?id=D000026667 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/lobby.php?id=D000026667
      • linuxftw 8y ago
• 0xfeba 8y ago
  What's preventing a OSS solution to this? What I can think of off the top of my head: * Lack of e-file permission * Lack of any kind of legal recourse or audit protection for the user * Constantly changing tax system After a casual search on GitHub I see a few calculator projects but nothing serious. I'd be down to help make a free competitor to Intuit. I see no reason to use a non-static site unless it's to keep previous years data, but that's iffy and sounds like it requires a whole other legal consideration.
  • castlecrasher2 8y ago
    I think the biggest reasons are 1) the vast amount of subject matter expertise required, especially with each state having its own rules, and 2) pretty much any risk at all of having an incorrect return because of buggy prep software is enough to deter most people from using it.
  • chadash 8y ago
    The problem is that the system requires constant maintenance every time some tax law changes in any state, and great maintenance is something that only the most well funded OSS projects get. And you need participation from lawyers and accountants, not just software developers. As the article notes, there are already free solutions for people with basic income situations (W-2, some bank interest, no stock sales) making under $66k. Personally, I don't mind paying $100 to turbotax for the peace of mind of knowing that at the very least, they have a staff of tax experts looking over the details of their filing process. Now, if the IRS came along with an official app that showed me what information they already had and I just needed to make some small adjustments from there (assuming my tax situation isn't complicated), then yeah, I'd use that. And it's a bit crazy that we don't have that. But unlike many countries, we are taxed at both the federal and state levels, which makes the process much more complicated. And to complicate things further, the two interact: I can deduct some of my state taxes from my federal taxes (though less than before). And don't even get me started with the complications of a move from state to state. EDIT: thinking about this a bit more. What really annoys me about the current system isn't necessarily that I pay to file my taxes. It's that it's so easy to miss things. Maybe i have a bank account that earned $12 in interest and I earned $20 from money that I put into lendingclub.com two years ago. It's annoying that the government has this information, but on the other hand, it's very easy for me to not see (or forget about) the email/snail-mail that I got about this income and then forget to declare it on my taxes. Yes, I know that the IRS isn't sending me to jail for forgetting to pay $5 in taxes, but in general, the process would be much less stressful if I had some kind of centralized reminder of all the income I made.
• kodis 8y ago
  I think that the work-around for this problem is an online tax filing service like that offered by Credit Karma, which like their credit score reporting service is supported by ad revenue rather than by charging a fee for the service.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• delfinom 8y ago
  So basically congress is passing a tax to file taxes? ;)
• anilakar 8y ago
  This is totally backwards. Here the local gov't is encouraging people to use their electronic services so that they don't have to deal with endless stacks of paper forms.
• aloukissas 8y ago
  I could not think that this would be a bipartisan bill. At least Credit Karma is still around, offering free tax filings (no affiliation, just a super-happy user).
• minikites 8y ago
  We can thank Grover Norquist and many other conservatives who want to make tax filing as unpleasant as possible so the very concept of paying taxes is vilified and the idea of government services are poisoned by association.
• dalbasal 8y ago
  This is one of the more explicit examples where complexity is stealth-deliberately is promoted. Tyler Cowen (and in his own way, david graeber) made a point that really stuck with me. Badly paraphrased: The introduction of PCs & software to the office, has not increased office worker productivity at all. It's very hard to define or measure white collar productivity, but to the extent that it can be measured... it hasn't improved. From another angle, university administrations, tax collectors, accountants, legal departments, international customs agencies, etc. have as many or more people and don't seem to be producing a whole lot more. To paraphrase Graeber's more beligerent take on it: Getting more efficient at paperwork just produces more & more complicated paperwork.
• ddlatham 8y ago
  NPR's Planet Money just re-ran an episode[1] related to this. In 2005, California ran a pilot program where they sent simple, pre-filled tax forms[2] to a sample of the population. 98% of people liked them and would use them again. In 2006 it would have become standard for California, but failed in the legislature by a single vote. Opposition was from two factions: lobbying by Intuit, and Grover Norquist claiming that it violated a pledge for no new taxes. Fascinating stuff. Later, California's Franchise Tax Board, went ahead and made it an option anyway, but hardly anyone knew about it. It was since been superseded by California's free online option: CalFile[3]. Of course, it's not that helpful if you have to go through the whole federal process anyway. But it serves as an example that it could work fine here in the states like the rest of the world if Congress would be willing to go for it instead of bowing to Intuit and Grover Norquist. 1. https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=708195702 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyReturn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyReturn 3. https://www.ftb.ca.gov/online/calfile/index.asp https://www.ftb.ca.gov/online/calfile/index.asp
  • onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
    I will say, vote with your dollars. If you don't like Intuit's lobbying, please don't feed the beast and use their services.
    • TheHypnotist 8y ago
      What are suitable alternatives? Aren't they the best in class, regardless of how shitty that class is?
      • jsloss 8y ago
        If you’re in Canada simpletax dot ca is great.
      • floren 8y ago
        I have worked with an independent tax preparer for the last few years. In January, I walk over to a nearby restaurant where we meet, I hand over tax documents, she makes sure it's all there and asks some brief questions. A week or two later, she sends the completed state & federal forms along with the appropriate authorizations which will allow her to file on my behalf. I pay $200 for this service and consider it far more pleasant than dealing with TurboTax's incessant questioning.
• everdev 8y ago
  I'm self employed and had to explain to my kids why taxes in the US were so complicated and took hours to do over the weekend. There must be powerful forces at work because Republicans have touted a flat tax or a return the size of a postcard for decades but when they controlled all three branches of government couldn't get anywhere near enough votes to pass it. It's truly an abysmal system and I hope my kids don't have to do a giant math problem every year when they're adults.
  • InvisibleUp 8y ago
    They did, technically. The Form 1040 this year is only half a page. However, many people need to attach at least one schedule, which is just the rest of the form broken up into multiple pages. It's less of a dramatic change and more of a weird format shuffling.
  • toast0 8y ago
    The republicans haven't bragged about it, but I'm guessing limiting SALT deductions to way below the standard deduction will drastically reduce the number of filers itemizing deductions. That leaves you with form 1040 which is roughly half a page front and back, not much bigger than a postcard. Certainly, if you have capital gains or other things, you'll need extra schedules, and maybe you need to send w-2s, so it's not necessarily their ideal, but it's actually a large change.
    • maimeowmeow 8y ago
      If you have a mortgage, and paid state youd easily be over 2x the standard deductions
      • toast0 8y ago
        Not as of tax year 2018. SALT deduction is capped at $10k, standard deduction for married filing joint is $24k. I don't think you can get $14k worth of deductible mortgage interest, but I guess maybe. If you're filing single with a mortgage, it seems more likely to end up with itemized, still.
• teekert 8y ago
  I feel sorry for people living in the US, how can they call this a democracy anymore? Demos means people. You are ruled by companies at this point.
  • justtopost 8y ago
    Don't feel sorry, we are fine. Still the most free people on earth.
    • ohlookabird 8y ago
      Clearly, it can vary a lot what people consider free. And therefore, this statement isn't true in general. The US does indeed have a lot of things I would consider freedoms, yes. But in Germany, for instance, I feel it is a great freedom to not have to worry about most healthcare issues, regardless of their income. A freedom (in my perspective) I wouldn't have in the US. There are other issues that fall into that category as well (free to not really have to worry about school shootings, free to not have to worry about people (including kids) to find a gun in the fields, free to not have to worry about insurance of people when having an accident, etc.).
      • dnadler 8y ago
        That's a commonly made point, but to be a little pedantic you are definitely twisting the definition of the word 'freedom'. Those are benefits to be sure, and they may certainly be better than the US's, but not really 'freedoms'.
        • germinalphrase 8y ago
          Why aren’t they “freedoms”? Increased financial security due to eliminating the possibility of medical bankruptcy increases an individuals’ options/choices in life, does it not?
          • malvosenior 8y ago
• HillaryBriss 8y ago
  One rather insidious thing about H&R Block's online tax filing website is that, once the hapless user has chosen to have a real human "tax pro" review their tax return (for an additional fee), the user cannot un-choose it! The website does not offer you that choice. Even worse, when the user calls the H&R Block help number, a computerized voice does offer the user the option to downgrade, but notes that it will have to delete all of the data the user entered!!! Talk about sleazy.
  • yeahitslikethat 8y ago
    Is not sleazy. They have two systems but no export from one to the other and why should they? It's free. You build it for free.
    • HillaryBriss 8y ago
      No. It really is sleazy. I'm talking about a situation where the user is paying for the H&R service. This is a paying customer, not a free user. This user then adds a tax pro review service but decides later that they do not want that add-on service. But now the user cannot remove that added-on service on the H&R website. The user calls in to an automated phone line which tells the user that, in order to downgrade, the system must clear out all of their data.
      • yeahitslikethat 8y ago
        The free system is a different system built by a different team. Integrating the two systems would be a nightmare. Don't attribute to maliciousness what can be attributed to incompetence.
• justtopost 8y ago
  The number of people propsing a 3rd party take my data and advertise to me for the privlidge of paying money to the state need to rethink their position. No 3rd party sould even be useful, much less needed to satisfy your state and federal debts.
• Arubis 8y ago
  It's a little bizarre to me that the very act of paying an independent CPA to run through my taxes feels like a deliberate anti-regulatory capture decision, but there it is.
  • yeahitslikethat 8y ago
    Imagine if the power company made YOU figure out how much you owed them every month.
• yeahitslikethat 8y ago
  I just fill out my taxes the best i can and submit it and if the irs corrects it I send them more or cash the check. It's not hard and no accountant had ever dabbed me more than they cost. If you can code you can fill out a form. Every year I day in going to automate it but it's easier to just fill out the forms. I'm looking forward to an audit for the free tax advice. Be legit. Stop worrying. Keep living.
• unethical_ban 8y ago
  The government developing software to better interact directly with its agencies should be a mission of 18F and the individual agencies. Our Congress is thinking of doing the opposite. Companies have no natural right to continue making money without competition from the government. EDIT: Where does this ban the IRS from creating their own portal? It requires the IRS to continue the Free File Program, but does that explicitly bar the IRS from its own system?
• hundt 8y ago
  As the article makes clear, this is not a unilateral ban on competing with tax prep software companies, but rather a deal (pre-existing but now codified into law) in which the companies agree to provide free tax prep software to low-income taxpayers and in exchange the federal government agrees not to create a competing product. To me this sounds like a great deal for taxpayers. In exchange for not spending tons of taxpayer money on a project which may or may not turn out well, makers of existing high-quality products agree to voluntarily give free access to it to the majority of taxpayers. The bill additionally codifies funding for the VITA program which provides free in-person preparation services for low-income taxpayers. I think this is about as good as the situation can get without actually simplifying our tax code.
  • whoopdedo 8y ago
    But is it really free? Or are you just paying in a different way? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/03/07/when-tax-prep-is-free-you-may-be-paying-with-your-privacy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/03/07/when-ta...
    • hundt 8y ago
      That article is referring to a different breed of free service.
• toddh 8y ago
  Non-story. IRS has never offered Free File. Their current program is in conjunction with for-profit providers
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• alexmingoia 8y ago
  Taxes are complicated to file because taxes are complicated. I’m surprised the source of tax woes is left out of this discussion, and the obvious solution (a simple tax system). The solution to excessive, complicated rules is less, simpler rules.
• crazygringo 8y ago
  I'm confused because I can't tell what this actually refers to. It says: > Congressional Democrats and Republicans are moving to permanently bar the IRS from creating a free electronic tax filing system. But the IRS already has one. I used it yesterday to fill out and e-file my taxes. It's "Free File Fillable Forms" (freefilefillableforms.com) that is basically an online replica of the tax forms, some fields get automatically calculated, but you have to manually calculate the actual level of tax you owe, and it's submitted electronically. And all income levels can use it, unlike the free tier of commerical tax prep programs which are limited to below a certain income level. I use it out of principle -- it's harder to use, closer to filling out tax forms by hand (unlike the "wizard"-type interfaces of commercial tax prep software), but I don't want to support the commercial solutions exactly because of lobbying like this. So I can't tell what this bill aims to do specifically. Is it trying to get rid of Free File Fillable Forms, or is it preventing the IRS from building something better? EDIT: Free File Fillable Forms is apparently a private organization that the IRS website links to. In my years of using it, I'd always assumed it was provided by the government. Wikipedia clarifies: "Another component of Free File is Free File Fillable Forms, which is available to all taxpayers, including taxpayers whose incomes are greater than $66,000. It is an alternative to Free File Software, although both are free. Free File Fillable Forms is operated by a private organization, the Free File Alliance and not the IRS. Though IRS links to it, they do not endorse it or any product... There are no income restrictions for using Free File Fillable Forms... It provides free electronic filing. Free File Fillable Forms is managed by the Free File Alliance." [1] I'm still unclear, however, if there's pressure to get rid of this option that is free for everyone. I sure hope not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable_Forms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable_F...
• misingnoglic 8y ago
  Our country is literally being held hostage by corporations, this is incredible.
• MR4D 8y ago
  You know, I get the uproar about this, but I'd like to put one thought into your heads before you respond: Imagine, as complicated as tax forms are, and as obtuse as the IRS instructions are compared to TurboTax. Now imagine the government puts up a website for you to file your taxes. Do you really want to use that? Do you think it will be as easy to use? Do you think you'll have a nice wizard to walk you through it? Will it be faster than TurboTax? Now, a year or two after their site has come out, and TurboTax has seen a huge drop in revenue (they don't know it, but it's only temporary), they decide to shut it down because they can't compete with both free and "government guaranteed" even if the site sucks. Will you be happy then? Seriously - I get the frustration of the current situation, but if you've ever done it on paper and have anything other than the 1040EZ form, this should give you pause.
  • pwncake 8y ago
    Then why crush the option? Let the market determine it. If Intuit's product is so much better then it will win.
    • MR4D 8y ago
      Because the free-priced government option will drive out the non-free commercial providers. Even if this only lasted a few years, it would put some of them out of business. In other words, for the same reason we have laws against unfair competition.
      • the_gastropod 8y ago
        The U.S. used to primarily have for-profit firefighting. Switching to a state-run system drove out the commercial providers. And that's by all accounts, a wonderful thing. Business for the sake of business is not necessarily good. If the business does not provide real value any longer, it shouldn't exist.
        • MR4D 8y ago
          So why not have the government run everything then? Government for the sake of government is never good.
• mehrdadn 8y ago
  Does anyone know why Senator Wyden is behind this? It's surprising for me to see.
• MR4D 8y ago
  While doing some research (trying to get my job done, too, but HN calls...) I found this: If you make under $66,000 a year, filing your taxes online is probably free. Every year only about three million people — of the nearly 100 million eligible — take advantage of the private partnership the Internal Revenue Service has set up with tax giants such as Intuit Inc and H&R Block Inc. to provide free tax preparation online, according to Tim Hugo, director of the Free File Alliance, which is made up of major tax preparers that manage the Free File program. SOURCE: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-file-your-taxes-for-free-online-if-you-make-less-than-66000-a-year-2018-03-28 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-file-your-taxes-for...
• wirerc 8y ago
  It's really a problem for other businesses even more so than consumers. Productivity is probably halved while everyone is thinking and talking about taxes for several weeks. It's all I hear at work. I am surprised there is no business SuperPAC to fight against this.
• gaoshan 8y ago
  So... maybe it's time someone build (or fund others to build) a free, online, tax prep service. Something that handles all but the really challenging cases. Do it just to screw the people behind this sort of idiocy.
• techdragon 8y ago
  This is one of the best examples of the perverse incentives that lobbying from some industries can turn into. Regardless of the arguments, government not competing with business, etc.. this is stupid. It requires a twisted viewpoint to think that making it hard to file taxes is a good thing.
• anitil 8y ago
  Something seems a bit off here - the article points to $6.6 million in lobbying and a direct contribution of $16,000. The ROI on those costs must be stupendous! Say 100 Million people file taxes in the US, it doesn't take long to hit 10x or 100x returns. Am I missing something? (I'm not from the US)
  • Amezarak 8y ago
    Aside from the free file program, which is a partnership with private companies, the IRS does offer a bare bones free fillable forms tax filing application. For most filers with W2 income, there’s nothing to it and they could easily do that. It’s fairly simple and you just need to read the directions and do maybe a half dozen additions and subtractions. Where the real return has come in is the millions, if not billions, of dollars that the industry has spent convincing consumers that taxes are super hard and complicated and open to tons of interpretation, that their tax filing experts know this ONE WEIRD TRICK to get you thousands back, and if you screw up even once the IRS is going to come after you hard and put a lien on your house and put you in jail. The reality is not like that at all - if you do screw up they are happy to help and it’s actually pretty simple for most people. But this has engendered an incredibly deep mistrust of the IRS - most people would still taking their taxes to one of these firms or their local accountant because they’d be convinced they could get more back. I’m not saying the system couldn’t be even better for these filers, but it does require the federal government and the IRS to start collecting data they they don’t right now, and the actual gain is pretty minimal in real terms - taxes for most filers is already incredibly easy and free. And the you’ve only solved half the problem - what about state taxes?
    • anitil 8y ago
      Ah yes I forgot the US has a separate state tax system. In Aus the federal government distributes taxes to the states (which of course is highly controversial amongst the state governments but the average person couldn't care less) You can also claim back the cost of filing here I believe, so if you need to use a third party they are essentially paid by the government. Maybe that's why they make it so easy here?
• maxxxxx 8y ago
  At least bipartisanship is not dead :-). The name also has a nice Orwellian touch "Taxpayer First Act".
• airstrike 8y ago
  This IMHO is the biggest issue the U.S. faces today, simply due to the fact that so many secondary issues stem from how conflicted lawmaking is in this country. I don't know if it's the same way elsewhere. Maybe it is, and it just isn't as widely reported. But the fact remains that we know this to be an issue and we're not campaigning enough to solve it. The only other issue that I feel is as pervasive is the end of the Fairness Doctrine and the spiral into chaos that ensued.
  • sonnyblarney 8y ago
    One might argue if this is related to scale. 'Everywhere else' is usually < 30M people which is a totally different ballgame. Can you imagine an EU level healthcare mandate? It'd be out of control impossible, and yet it works well enough a 'the state level'. It'd be nice to see some really forward thinking states lead the way and forge a path, if a few caught on and there were material examples of 'how it could be done' then maybe there'd be hope.
    • pcnix 8y ago
      Well, India's trying, maybe take a look there?
• Nikbul 8y ago
  If you follow down the original on ProPublica and find comments there, you will see that there was no such provision. And the one that actually referencing IRS is says that IRS should continue to cooperate with private sector to make free tax filing and must maintain free portal. I would like to see actual provision to which this website referencing, otherwise it is click bait.
  • rosstex 8y ago
    http://disq.us/p/21153z5 http://disq.us/p/21153z5
  • j16sdiz 8y ago
    It's in the referenced contracts. That statute states IRS should continue the program (67 Fed. Reg. 67247), "including any subsequent agreements and governing rules established pursuant thereto." In 67 Fed. Reg. 67247: "During the term of this Agreement, the IRS will not compete with the Consortium in providing free, on-line tax return preparation and filing services to taxpayers."
    • tootie 8y ago
      Yeah, and unless the IRS has imminent plans to implement free tax filing this new clause has no real effect. It's not a constitutional amendment, if the IRS wants to offer this service in 5 years they'll probably need a huge multi-year appropriation and this clause to be revoked. Adding it in to this bill costs nothing and probably made the GOP reps willing to sign on.
      • j16sdiz 8y ago
        Of course IRS can go back to congress and revoke this.. Yes, this this make the GOP reps willing to sign on. The question is: why we want this bill? It is not giving any benefit. That's what "ban the IRS from creating a free e-filing system" means.
        • tootie 8y ago
• valleyjo 8y ago
  Every time I pay for TurboTax I hate them even more for lobbying for this type of legislation.
  • technofiend 8y ago
    Have you considered any alternatives? I use taxcut but have used sites in the past like taxbrain.
    • chrisseaton 8y ago
      Can you pay an accountant to do your taxes instead? I do that in the UK and they cost less than the prices I see online for US tax software. I just give him a pile of pay slips and receipts and he does whatever he needs to do to fill things in.
      • Alupis 8y ago
        > I do that in the UK and they cost less than the prices I see online for US tax software... and he does whatever he needs to do to fill things in. Really? For less than $29?
        • chrisseaton 8y ago
          TurboxTax is showing like $250 for someone with a house, a job, shares, expenses, etc. Not sure how anyone of this works so maybe I'm wrong.
          • Alupis 8y ago
            The website price is rarely what someone pays in reality. Typically you buy it one year, at a store for some special price, and every year they mail you a CD with special reduced pricing to renew. I paid $39 this year for H&R Block Deluxe, which took care of everything you listed above. Includes 5 e-files too, so you can share it with friends/family.
    • 8y ago
• chrisseaton 8y ago
  > The Ways and Means chair, Neal, received $16,000 in contributions from the two companies in the last two election cycles, according to the ProPublica report. When companies make contributions like this, why don't politicians just take the money and then do whatever they want anyway? The companies have no recourse to complain or get the money back do they? How does this work?
  • gruez 8y ago
    >The companies have no recourse to complain or get the money back do they? How does this work? They'll back your opponent in the primaries/elections, and run smear campaigns on you.
  • internet_user 8y ago
    a sinecure is always nice?
  • ahoy 8y ago
    House Representatives have 2 year terms. If you'd like to hold onto that job for longer than 2 years, you have to campaign again, which means raising money again. Do you think TurboTax is going to keep investing in a congressperson who isn't doing what they want?
    • JudgeWapner 8y ago
      in a perfect world, the congressman would turn the tables and say "you either contribute to my campaign, or else I, along with 20 other senators, will vote for a tax against your industry in particular".
    • samstave 8y ago
      This is why congress should be a conscripted service. With a limit of two terms.... should only be able to vote to keep a certain person in office, but all persons in office should be selected just like jury duty. Want to know how fucking retarded the world is. Do this. but at least it will diminish corruption from the likes of Pelosy and others who spend DECADES in their positions...
• PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  I think this is a great idea. The risk of the IRS totally screwing up is just too high. And having an outside contractor do it is potentially even worse. E.g. the State of Oregon contracted with Oracle to create a health insurance marketplace. $200 million dollars later there was nothing but lawsuits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_Oregon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_Oregon Let that sink in. Two hundred million dollars and they couldn't get a fucking website working. Two hundred million dollars! Anyone who has played with TurboTax or H&R Block software knows that the software is at least pretty good. There are plenty of nuances in the tax laws, and the software at least attempts to cover those. Sure, a good tax accountant probably can do a lot better, but for 98% of people the software is good enough. Does anyone seriously believe that the IRS would do better? Why waste taxpayer money to find out?
  • maxxxxx 8y ago
    The IRS would basically tell you what they already know. You still could file a return if you chose to do so. You could also buy TurboTax if you wanted to. I can’t see any downside to the taxpayer, only upside. E
    • zdragnar 8y ago
      The downside, allegedly, is that the IRS may not operate in good faith and take all of the appropriate deductions, etc. If the tax code were vastly simplified, I think all of the objections go away.
      • maxxxxx 8y ago
        You still can change the return if you don’t agree.
  • mykowebhn 8y ago
    Yes, but if the US tax code weren't so darn complicated wouldn't that reduce the chances of the IRS totally screwing up? I just finished my taxes and filing taxes in the US is such a stshow. But where do we start? We want to simplify filing, but that might depend on simplifying the tax code, which might be orders of magnitude more difficult. Sigh!
• danielhughes 8y ago
  I've often read headlines noting that the tax-prep lobby spends huge sums to preserve the status quo. But the numbers quoted in the article as evidence don't appear to support that claim. $6.6m seems low relative to these figures https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?showYear=2018&indexType=i https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?showYear=2018&inde... * *I can't vouch for this site or its data Relevant quote from the Tech Crunch article: "One reason why folks Congress could be pushing this through is all of the money that H&R Block and Intuit spent to lobby Senators and Representatives. ProPublica estimates that the tax prep industry has spent $6.6 million to advocate for the IRS filing deal. The Ways and Means chair, Neal, received $16,000 in contributions from the two companies in the last two election cycles, according to the ProPublica report."
  • chillacy 8y ago
    $16k to sell out? Don't these people raise millions?
    • peteretep 8y ago
      If the marginal cost is zero of raising, raise all the amounts
    • diminoten 8y ago
      Not really, no! Most national elections sure, but I think most congressional races aren't nearly as expensive.
      • rootusrootus 8y ago
        As of a few years ago, the average cost for a winning campaign for the House of Representatives was about $1.5M. The average cost for a winning Senate campaign was a bit over $10M.
        • johnsimer 8y ago
          Wow, so this means someone could theoretically buy out the House for <$1b?
• indemnity 8y ago
  Meanwhile, in my little country (NZ), as a regular salaried worker, I only had to interact with the IRD in the years that I had a few side gigs in addition to my regular employment. Most years I don't interact with them at all. Don't even have to file. I guess in the USA they are worried the IRS will get it wrong, so on the chance they will, everyone has to follow really complicated processes, even if their tax affairs are simple...Am I wrong?
  • lysp 8y ago
    Being your close neighbour - how do you handle work related deductions. ie. IT equipment?
    • indemnity 8y ago
      If I remember correctly, I got a tax deduction for 30% of its value per year through depreciation.
  • gtirloni 8y ago
    In Brazil, our IRS provides the software for free and it gets better every year. There are some talks about not having to declare anything if your revenue situation is simple, in a few years. I don't trust our government as much as the US population doesn't trust its government but this level of paranoia only leads to inefficiencies. Now instead of a central authority providing codified norms in software, you have countless tax filling vendors providing theirs, lobbying, etc. Same with right to bear guns against the government. I guess it's the old shovels and gold digging, there's someone profitting from your hopes and dreams, or in this case, fears.
  • rayiner 8y ago
    > I guess in the USA they are worried the IRS will get it wrong, so on the chance they will, everyone has to follow really complicated processes, even if their tax affairs are simple...Am I wrong? New Zealand has extremely limited deductions compared to the United States: http://taxsummaries.pwc.com/uk/taxsummaries/wwts.nsf/ID/New-Zealand-Individual-Deductions http://taxsummaries.pwc.com/uk/taxsummaries/wwts.nsf/ID/New-.... For example, just from Google, it looks like you can't deduct expenses for daycare in New Zealand. What we're worried about in the U.S. is that making deductions "opt in" will lead to an effective tax increase from people not claiming them (or being afraid to contest the "bill" sent to them by the IRS). You know the studies showing how organ donation rates shot up when it was made "opt out" instead of "opt in"? Same thing.
• eyeareque 8y ago
  Uhg, how do we stop this? Is it too late?
• internet_user 8y ago
  Would be even nicer if taxpayers would have to remit taxes on their own, instead of automatic deductions by the employer. Preferably, they'd have to count paper bills with their own hands, savoring each one for just a moment, before handing it over to the government.
  • x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
    I've often lamented a system that makes people feel good about getting back money that was already theirs (without interest) and calling it free money.
    • kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      That's how we learn how great BB is.
  • JudgeWapner 8y ago
    that would be so nice, wouldn't it? Millions of people prosecuted for tax fraud, because they had to choose between paying the gov later or paying for food/rent/healthcare NOW.
• rogerkirkness 8y ago
  The easier it is the file taxes, the closer you get to a direct link to your bank account where you "don't have to think about it". Affordances and friction can be good. And if you (actually) believe in equality, those affordances should apply to all.
  • shhehebehdh 8y ago
    > And if you (actually) believe in equality, those affordances should apply to all. Assuming one actually believes it’s an affordance, as opposed to a pointless inconvenience and cash grab. I suspect those whose views you’re attempting to impugn generally have the latter viewpoint.
    • rogerkirkness 8y ago
      Pointless cash grabs are an affordance. Would you rather have a competent government? That's only useful if you depend on them more than they depend on you.
  • throwaway287391 8y ago
    Ugh, I hate this argument so much. It's the argument Grover Norquist goes around making to every Republican in Congress that that (in addition to Intuit's lobbying efforts) to stop this from ever happening. (There's a great episode of Planet Money [1] about it.) In addition to just about every major country other than the US, California already has this and it's absolutely fantastic. I've literally never heard anyone who's actually used it complain about it and say they'd rather not have the option of filing their taxes in this way. Imagine if your cell phone bill worked like US federal taxes. They would send you a blank sheet of paper and make you write down your minutes, texts, and megabytes for the month, and any other applicable fees you might owe, calculate the total bill yourself from that, and send a check for that amount. The provider already knows what you owe and calculated it themselves; they just aren't telling you, and you're threatened with additional fines or burdensome audits if your calculations don't match theirs. This causes you weeks of anxiety and dozens of hours of lost productivity every year. (Paraphrased this argument from the subject of the Planet Money episode.) [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• sharno 8y ago
  The situation is even worse for foreigners in the US. As a non-resident I have to use websites with horrible UX, it's totally confusing and I have to gather all the documents and print the forms to mail it to the IRS.
• mattferderer 8y ago
  If I read this right, you can still use the free service the IRS provides if you make less than $66,000. Has anyone used Turbo Tax or H&R "free" versions to file? I can't use them & last time I tried they charged you to submit your taxes electronically but otherwise it was simple & easy. I also know many cities offer services to help people file simple taxes for free. I believe this bill also states the IRS cannot send debt collectors after people making less than $66,000. This bill may not be as bad as it looks. I don't expect the IRS to make software for complicated taxes as that's a very difficult challenge. I question if it's necessary to bar it, but I'm guessing that was to keep their deal with the Free File software. Either way it would be nice to see representatives state their position & reasoning behind this bill. It seems it has wide support across the aisle which is rare these days.
  • arkades 8y ago
    > If I read this right, you can still use the free service the IRS provides if you make less than $66,000. You did not. You can contact the private companies such as H&R Block and request Their free service if you make less than 66k - and subject yourself to their upselling and scam artistry, to try and get you to pay anything more than "free." > I don't expect the IRS to make software for complicated taxes as that's a very difficult challenge The vast majority of people file extremely simple taxes, as they're salaried workers with minimal assets. Most first-world countries provide a pre-populated tax form with the relevant data (since your employer already submits it), for you to peruse, edit, and hit the submit button on. If other countries do it without a problem, I don't see why it's too technically difficult for us to do the same.
    • arcticbull 8y ago
      Exactly. W-2 and 1099 income is really straight-forward. If anything the IRS should provide ways for you to submit all your non-W2/non-1099 income to them and roll them up into a new form so that no matter what your situation you can "fetch" your current returns, sign them, and submit them. No need for third-parties at all. Any additional complexity is a symptom of rent-seeking IMO.
• crispinb 8y ago
  Related to https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/04/08/us-workers-are-highly-taxed-when-you-count-health-premiums/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/04/08/us-workers-a... Citizen overheads for essential services are as high or higher in the US as in mainstream developed nations, but laws dictated by corporations mandating (or making essential-in-practise) private provision clumsily hide them behind a fake 'low tax' banner. Here in Aus our ATO makes the (dead simple) etax directly available to end users. Its popularity speaks for itself, and there'd be hell to pay if the ATO ever removed the service. Cf public healthcare etc - corporations are rightly scared of public provision. People like it & it's very sticky.
• macinjosh 8y ago
  As a vehement proponent of free markets I wholly oppose this sort of crony capitalism. I think this is something everyone in politics can and should agree on. If the government is going to collect taxes they shouldn't be giving a certain industry a leg up on for charging money for people to pay taxes.
• Calloggs 8y ago
  Planet Money covered tax filing a few years ago and visited it again recently: https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=708195702 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... My understanding is that the main opposition appears to be (1) the tax preparation lobby to protect their business interests and (2) anti-tax activists that believe that making people calculate their own taxes will make them more aware of how much they are paying in taxes. The second argument blows my mind because I can't imagine that the set of people who would just pay the IRS without double checking their math are reviewing the tax filings from the third party they use right now. In other words, I would really like to see a survey of how people currently file their taxes in comparison to how they think they would if there was an IRS free filing for everyone or something like the ReadyReturn mentioned in the NPR story.
  • fattire 8y ago
    Link to audio: https://www.npr.org/player/embed/708195702/709698927 https://www.npr.org/player/embed/708195702/709698927
  • Dig1t 8y ago
    Yes, you're right that people in that camp are unlikely to review their tax filings from their 3rd party. However there is an incentive for that 3rd part tax company to save their customer as much as they possibly can. The bigger the refund, the happier the customer and the more likely they are to come back next year and give you more money. In the Planet Money episode they spoke with the Republican dude and his biggest point was that his goal was to support a system where people paid as little tax as possible, and this current system we have is just that.
    • gowld 8y ago
      If complicated taxes are a Republican anti-tax strategy, why did Reagan and the 1980s republicans pursue a strategy of vastly simplifying the tax code? Doing taxes is a tax -- in hours and fees. Only the wealthiest people who can spend $10K on tax prep to save $100K via loophole deductions, oh.
• RickJWagner 8y ago
  "It could also submit pre-prepared tax returns for people to approve and then file based on the salary data the agency already has." That's the dream. Put the onus of doing the calculations on the government, and you get the right to disagree if you find fault with it. Wouldn't that be great!
• jorblumesea 8y ago
  Why do regular citizens even file their taxes in the first place? The IRS has everything they need, from W2 to financial statements from brokerages. All of this filing is required by law anyways. Do it for me and send me a bill or refund.
• gowld 8y ago
  Congress can't permanently bar anything. A future Congress can undo anything a past Congress does.
• a3n 8y ago
  Thus preserving our "beloved" private e-filing companies. I've said it often, we are all mere resources to government, law enforcement and corporations.
• ramon 8y ago
  In Brazil it has been by software for many years, recently there is a mobile version. For all tax payers.
• NamTaf 8y ago
  This blows my mind. Here in AU, I can lodge mine online through a web portal. It's pre-filled with a variety of information including my reported taxable earnings (through company reporting), my superannuation information, my private health insurance (reported by those companies), any dividend payments made to me, etc. If any of the pre-filling is wrong (in my experience, it never is unless there's info it doesn't know about), I can correct it manually. I basically only have to enter the deductions I wish to claim. Of course, if I earned money on the side that wasn't reported, I can self-report it too. The only reason you'd pay for an accountant here is if you have complex tax affairs, or wish to save yourself time. Even when using one, you're ultimately responsible for the accuracy of your tax filing, and you're supposed to review the submission they draft. I certainly believe that tax law should be understandable by the layman if all they're doing is a simple salaried employment, and by extension in all cases a person should be able to complete their tax requirements entirely on their own (even if that involves learning a large amount of tax law knowledge). There's something deeply unsettling to me about the concept of tax law being too obscure for the everyman to file themselves even in simple situations. Tax is a contract between the government and its citizens. The idea that a third-party private entity must be involved by law seems, to me, very opposed to the libertarian concepts that the US apparently holds dear.
• PorterDuff 8y ago
  One problem I can see with a standardized computer filing system is that there is unlimited ability to build complex tax law.
• ramon 8y ago
  ProPublica estimates that the tax prep industry has spent $6.6 million to advocate for the IRS filing deal. Is this legal?
• azinman2 8y ago
  "The Ways and Means chair, Neal, received $16,000 in contributions from the two companies in the last two election cycles, according to the ProPublica report." It's embarrassing and absurd how cheap it is to buy off congress from making everyone's lives easier. Can't a gofundme raise more than 16k to counter them?
  • thanatos_dem 8y ago
    Well that’s quite a slippery slope... it’s going to be corporations vs citizens in a bidding war making all politicians multi millionaires? How about we go back to when politician wasn’t a full time job, and you barely got paid for it? Make it illegal to pay politicians for any public services apart from a set nominal salary.
    • cobbzilla 8y ago
      Just playing devil’s advocate: What if a fixed/low salary only attracts the already-rich whose interests will never be well aligned with the general public? If you want superstar government that is the very best at what it is supposed to do, you need a superstar salary structure, something more like professional athletics. Our president should be paid millions (with complex incentive structures for measurable achievements), but under “at will” employment terms and accountable to the people.
      • freedomben 8y ago
        Our presidents are alreay paid millions, typically billions. They just don't get it until after they leave office. Just look at the Obama's net worth. And of course Bill & Hillary pulling down 6 figures for giving a speech (that somebody else writes for them). I'd say they are paid pretty well already
        • cobbzilla 8y ago
          Pay received after leaving office cannot by definition incentivize any behavior during the term.
• toomuchequate 8y ago
  The government shoots themselves in the foot? Can anyone explain given the unbelievably bad record of government, why they would ever want more of it?
  • nichos 8y ago
    Exactly this. Often times when people complain about waste and corruption, their solution is more government.
  • outside1234 8y ago
    Most of it works. Social Security, Medicare, Defense, ... There is the same sort of corruption and inefficiency in a corporation as well.
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• rasengan0 8y ago
  I could've already intuit that
• mh_yam 8y ago
  How about simplifying the tax code so we don't need computer programs at all?
  • minikites 8y ago
    Which parts do you consider overly complex?
  • xanth 8y ago
    Why? The more equitable the tax code the more complex it becomes. And assuming you're aiming for the most fair system I don't understand only applying our computational resources to rendering superheroes and recommendation engines, when we could scale the tax code complexity (and fairness) relative to our compute resources.
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• avsteele 8y ago
  Disappointed by the overwhelmingly negative commentary here. There are multiple private companies providing this service for low amount, as many have mentioned; for free for incomes below a threshold. 1) Why would you want the IRS to duplicate this effort and compete with these companies? Remember 'Free' in this context means paid for by tax dollars. Do you think the IRS is going to spend less to implement a filing system than one of the existing vendors has? If they do it in-house, do they even have the expertise? If they contract it out, is that much different from what we have now? 2) Everyone needs to file state taxes anyway. Seems unlikely the IRS is going to handle this, as it adds a great deal of complexity and isn't really part of their mandate. So if you create a free IRS filing system, then people still need to go to one of the existing vendors and import their info and pay to file state taxes anyway. There are good reasons to think the IRS creating a system is a bad idea. Blaming passage on a few $K in lobbying is lazy.
  • eightysixfour 8y ago
    2) Unless you have no state taxes.
  • jppope 8y ago
    Pretty sure these arguments wouldn't change if the IRS provided a free service to submit federal taxes. 1) They could still provide free federal tax submissions 2) State taxes could still be submitted through the companies If the companies do in fact provide a service that is valuable the IRS should not be competition for them. Now with that said. Intuit loads up their service with tons of dark patterns, and they spend money lobbying... why would they be doing that if they provide a valuable service?
    • areyouseriousxx 8y ago
      They do provide free federal tax submissions. Everytime I see this stuff come up, I'm in disbelief. I used Free File for over a decade when I had a lower income and 1040 type employment. You seriously click a button here: https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... Pick a provider and fill out the form. It doesn't even take more than 5 minutes. 10 if you're slow. How is it on a site full of highly intelligent and educated individuals, there is one single comment about Free File and how simple it is. And it has been around for many years. There are tons of comments in this thread about how income tax is not automated and free in the US, when it is actually almost automated(fill out name and address and income and the software does the rest) and free for 70% of people in the US. How? How are this many people commenting and no one appears to be aware that almost all of the comments in this thread are incorrect? On the state level, the federal government, for obvious reasons, cannot control that, but you will be happy to know that many states also support forms of Free File, although are often more restrictive. But with that said, many state taxes are just percentages of what your federal tax liability is so they are often half a page long forms for most people. And regardless of all of that, and regardless of income, if you have a typical 1040ez income, you can go down to the public library, get the form which is literally two pages and fill it out and mail it in. It also takes about 15 minutes and in 100% absolutely free. Well, you have to purchase a stamp. Seriously, do you not realize this has been the case forever? Are you located in the US? And if you make over $66k a year? Come on, you can afford $50.
• baroffoos 8y ago
  From what I understand, there are a lot of businesses that make money off the system being very complex but what is stopping an open source program being created that does everything for you like the paid tools do?
  • fock 8y ago
    probably the lack of an open API, which is stable? (at least that's the case around here)
• peteforde 8y ago
  One thing I don't understand (possibly as a Canadian, possibly just as a conscious person) is how little it costs to bribe your highest-ranking politicians. The article suggests that tax filing is an $11B industry and that companies spend ~$6M lobbying your corrupt senators. The chair of the Ways and Means committee received ~$16k in donations from Intuit/H&R. Wait, what? Never mind how inexcusably transactional this political 69 sesh is... it's obviously table stakes for these people. What I can't process is that $11B of revenue only spent $6M to bribe these guys. Why not spend $100M? Why not spend X? Are the senators just selling themselves short? For perspective, $6M is like 10-12 totally normal homes on my totally normal suburban street. If I was in the business of bribing politicians, I would allocate a lot more than $16k to the chair of the committee. Just saying. At least send all of his grandkids to the Ivy Leagues.
  • Yetanfou 8y ago
    > If I was in the business of bribing politicians, I would allocate a lot more than $16k to the chair of the committee. Just saying. At least send all of his grandkids to the Ivy Leagues. Why, that is classical supply and demand, Economics 101. If you can buy a service for $10, why would you pay $100? If $16,000 is enough to buy the chair of some committee you'd batter not pay her much more than $16,000 or the next time she comes around in some position where she has the power over some piece of legislation which might get in your way you'll have to dig deeper still. Not to mention the fact that your fellow lobbyists wouldn't like you for raising the going price of politicians, senators and committees and you'd be hard pressed to find another lucrative position in this market.
  • chronolitus 8y ago
    Maybe we can't comprehend it, the same way that I can't comprehend, say prostituting myself for money. If I consider the prospect, it would have to be for ridiculous sums. Yet everyday people are selling themselves for - from my point of view - a pittance. I guess, if you're in the business of selling your principles (corrupt politician), you're suddenly competing with a wide pool of equally corrupt people, probably with cutthroat tendencies, who are willing to go cheaper than you and take your place? Could be that driven, principled, smart people are hard to find, but people willing to be corrupt politicians are dime a dozen and replaceable.
• hellllllllooo 8y ago
  This is pointless obstruction and ironically a waste of my tax money. You could easily have the government automatically complete your taxes for the simple cases and have software like TurboTax for the difficult ones. To the people complaining about the possibility of a government run site being poor have you used TurboTax? I've used it twice now and will never use it again. The dark patterns, upselling and fake loading screens really obscured how simple my taxes actually were to do.
• dosy 8y ago
  this is crazy. basically a cartel in cahoots with lawmakers. imagine if New company offered software to do this free? I'm guessing rules make this impossible
• BenMorganIO 8y ago
  I sincerely hope this never comes to Canada.
• laktak 8y ago
  As a comparison: in Austria you can file your taxes online (for free). If you forget to file them for two years the gov will do an automated filing for you and transfer the money you are due to your bank account.
• RandomTisk 8y ago
  I'm surprised more people aren't skeptical of the IRS themselves. Inverting the way the US does their taxes would disrupt a lot of careers of a lot of of IRS employees. I would imagine there is considerable pressure to keep the status quo from within the IRS itself.
• exabrial 8y ago
  The symptom is tax filing. The cause is wreckless spending and near 0 efficiency. The enabling factor is the force of law to extract your money via tax.
• ToFab123 8y ago
  In my country (Denmark) all companies reports everything to the IRS. Most people just have to review their numbers (on IRS website). Most people rarely has to alter that info or add to it. It is rare that a private person needs to hire an accountant to help with the tax filling.
  • navane 8y ago
    Same in NL. I just press next-next-next-finish like I'm installing software in 2005.
• ggm 8y ago
  The tax law should be written as exemplar runable code.
• jason_slack 8y ago
  I just filed my taxes this morning. I owe the government $4,600. I received an "underpayment penalty fee of $44" because I did not "pre-pay an estimated tax" each quarter. Something I have never done in the ~25 years I have been paying taxes. Not only do they want the $4,600 by 4/15 they also want an estimated $1,200 "pre-payment" for 2019 by the same date or I will incur this same fee of $44 next year.Plus 3 more payments of $1,200 each quarter. So they want to hold my money without paying me interest. At least in my bank I earn more than the $44 penalty in interest each year. This is bizarre. I surely didn't know about this nor did I read anything about new tax laws as I imagine most people don't.
  • lukeqsee 8y ago
    Strictly speaking, you're holding their money for a year without interest. The estimated payments are not prepayments—they are payments that match what most W2 employees would pay every paycheck, but isn't the case for 1099 (or otherwise self-employed) individuals, since they don't have taxes withheld from their paychecks.
    • jason_slack 8y ago
      I get where you are coming from. What if I have a baby in January or February? Then I would qualify for a deduction and then I am indeed overpaying them. What if I lose my job? or get a job that is less money? It's not their money unless I earn the money to pay them, IMHO. It should go both ways.....why can't I ask them to estimate a refund then and give it to me in advance?
      • wycy 8y ago
        > why can't I ask them to estimate a refund then and give it to me in advance? You sort of can, by adjusting your withholding.
        • jason_slack 8y ago
          true, I could with hold like Married, 9, lol. But then if I did that and at year end didn't have enough taken I would still face a penalty. It feels like taxpayers just have to take it.
• janandonly 8y ago
  To me (as a Dutchman) this sounds crazy. Here in Holland the only way to file your taxes as in individual (I don't know about company's) is to login to the government tax website (with my digid (a government issued digital identity)) and then to simply check if all the information that they have collected on me is correct. It usualy is. All I have to add is my deduction items, and BAM! it's done. Also, we automatically pre-pay our taxes because it is calculated and payed for by all employers.
  • kokx 8y ago
    The dutch tax service even has a great slogan for this ideology: "Leuker kunnen we het niet maken. Wel makkelijker". Roughly translated, this means: "We can't make it nicer. But we can make it easier.". Every year, they add some improvements to the entire system. They basically prefill your entire income and capital. Including stocks, dividends and other things. The only things you need to fill in yourself are some of your deductions (there are some which are prefilled as well). They open the filing of taxes every year on march first. And every year there are lots of people who fill it in on the first day. This year there was even someone who handed their taxes in 18 seconds past midnight.
    • consp 8y ago
      For those who are concerned about privacy: the banks are required to file your 1st of January balances and only the whole sum, not the specification and only the Social Security number in combination with the balances. You can specify more detailed (e.g. 'green' investments) but that is up to you.
  • snorberhuis 8y ago
    You can have an accountant do it for you. I don't file my taxes in The Netherlands. This makes sense if you own a business.
  • eythian 8y ago
    I find the Dutch way (slightly) crazy, as someone from NZ for the most part, you just don't file taxes and it works out. If you have a more complicated situation you might need to, but otherwise there's no point. Everything is withheld correctly. At least the Dutch ones tend to just be click-click-check-done, so it's not too bad. But it was sad moving to filing annual tax returns from a much simpler system.
• tomohawk 8y ago
  Missing option #1: just don't collect income tax on 80% of people, since its not worth it. In this case, IRS would do automatic calculation, and if they say you owe nothing, you don't have to do anything. Missing option #2: it is just foolish to trust the tax collector to tell you how much you owe. The only way this would possibly work would be radical simplification of the tax code. Since that is not going to happen...
• JTbane 8y ago
  There should be an API for taxes, in which your employer, banks, or yourself can report income and recieve an exact tax amount to be paid quarterly. Most deductions and credits should also be done away with to simplify the tax code, but I doubt the Intuit lobbyists would let that happen.
• superslug 8y ago
  It's ironic that the 'postal mail' version is free but the online version costs money. Mindnumbingly aweful method of handling resources. Its much more convenient for the government and the tax payer to file electronically
• paparush 8y ago
  Your lobbying dollars at work.
• geekraver 8y ago
  Whenever you see a bill called “X First” for some X, you know who it’s going to shaft - X.
• fopen64 8y ago
  In Brazil the govt supplies the software for free, runs in all major operating systems, and autofills what the IRS already knows if you have a digital certificate.
• JDiculous 8y ago
  First of all this whole movement to keep taxes a pain in the ass to file is extraordinarily infuriating and uniquely American in its idiocy. I'm in South Korea now and filing taxes is as simple as logging into a website, entering your SSN, and verifying that the information is correct. Completely free and takes 5 minutes. Second, I'm tired of people blaming TurboTax. The headline says "Thanks TurboTax". No, TurboTax does not vote on laws, our Congressmen do. If any Congressman is taking bribes and voting for this bullsh!t, then the Congressmen are at fault and need to be voted out of office. I decided to take a quick look at the bill to see if it's really as outrageous as the article makes it, but I can't even understand what the bill says. It's like a 30 page document of legalese. Where in the document does it say that the U.S. would be banned from offering free tax filings? Why the hell do laws have to be written like this to be so overly verbose and indecipherable to anyone without a law degree? There should at least be a succinct summary at the top.
• Sutanreyu 8y ago
  Can we not?
• thecleaner 8y ago
  Corporations when there's no competition - "we are global leaders in innovation". Corporations (like TurboTax) when there's competition - "(sob, sob, sob), save us. here's some money"
• User23 8y ago
  My tax simplification plan of choice is repealing the 16th amendment.
• JDiculous 8y ago
  This is so infuriating and needs to change. Ultimately the problem is our Congress who votes for this nonsense. It's a uniquely American problem, in most of the rest of the developed world tax filing doesn't require manual data entry, is quick (< 5 minutes), and free. Made a video to help raise awareness of the problem and solution https://youtu.be/5YVnSVulQAE https://youtu.be/5YVnSVulQAE