32 ms·

U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers

469 points by godelmachine 8y ago

JacobJans 8y ago
Why is copyright infringement tolerated on HN?
- JacobJans 8y ago
  Instead of downvoting, maybe answer my question.
  - tantalor 8y ago
    "Information wants to be free" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free
    - mc32 8y ago
      That's only half the quote: >On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other You're omitting the counterbalancing force.
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      Free your SSN and mother's maiden name to me please.
      - stale2002 8y ago
        Are you aware that SSNs have absolutely nothing to do with copyright law? They aren't covered by that.
        oh_sigh 8y ago
        I'm responding to "information wants to be free". I don't think the quote is "only copyrighted information wants to be free"
        stale2002 8y ago
        The thread is specifically about copyright information. I am not sure why you made a comment about completely unrelated information that has nothing to do with the fundamental question regarding copyrighted information. The term "information wants to be free", obviously is about the commericalization of information. It has nothing to do with privacy.
        oh_sigh 8y ago
        And the quote I'm responding to is generally about information.
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    Because people don’t care
- perfmode 8y ago
  This site is called hacker news.
- bsder 8y ago
  Why are paywalled articles tolerated on HN? Personally, I would feel no loss if all paywalled articles were simply omitted.
  - bb88 8y ago
    I would like to see a paywall icon. So I could just not bother to click the link.
  - freddie_mercury 8y ago
    People upvote the content they want to see. Implicitly, whether something is paywalled or not is already included in that judgment. What's more, people keep upvoting paywalled content because non-paywalled content isn't providing the same level of content. By not tolerating paywalled content you are making an explicit call for less content of the type that HN readers say they want to see. You could make the argument that HN readers shouldn't upvote the things they are upvoting, that HN would be a better place if people didn't upvote the things they are upvoting, or that there might be a longer term benefit to be gained from accepting short term losses by eschewing paywalled articles. Those are all things people could argue. But the fact that they show up on the front page with regular basis is explicit evidence that, even if you feel they have no value, other people do.
    - bsder 8y ago
      > Implicitly, whether something is paywalled or not is already included in that judgment. No, it's not. If those of us who despise this could downvote the article, then your statement would be correct.
- gumby 8y ago
  There is no infringement in posting that link. People who click on it may or may not be infringing (that's really unclear).
- arkades 8y ago
  The journal(ist) doesn’t own the information in the article, just their particular execution of conveying that information. Altering that execution isn’t copyright infringement, though admittedly, outline puts its toes right up to the line.
- ridgeguy 8y ago
  Because some subscribe to criteria of "fair use" that differ from yours.
- whoisjuan 8y ago
  I think what shouldn't be tolerated are paywalled articles. How are you supposed to discuss something that is not freely distributed?
- harshulpandav 8y ago
  I don't see outline making money out of it (I can't see any ads). Plus it gives credit to the original page as a link on the top left corner (I'm viewing on mobile browser).
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Neither of those stop it being infringement.
  - codycraven 8y ago
    This in not how copyright in the US works. Making money has absolutely nothing to do with the criteria of infringement.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    I don't think financial gain is a necessary component of copyright infringement? Though it may make your punishment worse.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Because screw copyright, thats why.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't post like this. It's tedious and always the same. This is in the FAQ at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and there's more explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19041410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19041410 and marked it off-topic.
xfitm3 8y ago
https://outline.com/cSY3HL https://outline.com/cSY3HL
- uchman 8y ago
  Much appreciated :)
- godelmachine 8y ago
  Thanks a ton :)
- benmarten 8y ago
  isn't that page going against wsj's terms?
  - gesman 8y ago
    Most people would rather read article than terms.
prickledpear 8y ago
I'm trying to understand exactly what is changing. From the article are they just switching the order of the two lotteries? They aren't actually raising the number of visas offered, right? This just has the effect of allocating more of the 85,000 visas granted to those with a Master's degree or PhD, right? I'm sure the universities that heavily recruit international students to their graduate programs will love this.
- uchman 8y ago
  Yes this is my understanding as well
- ufo 8y ago
  Graduate students are either on F or J visas. The article is talking about H-1B visas.
  - KorematsuFred 8y ago
    20K visas are reserved for those who had F visa in past and completed a US masters degree.
  - BeetleB 8y ago
    A large number (most?) of the H-1B visas go to students on F visas who have a job offer and want to change their status. Almost all the foreigners that I know on H-1B visas in my company came from a F visa. Some definitely were recruited from abroad, but it's simple economics. With so many people graduating from US universities, it's a lot easier to interview and subsequently apply for an H-1B for someone already here.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  Yes. Total number of visas are not increased but people with US Masters degree will have a higher chance of winning the lottery. I am not a lawyer but based on my reading of the law USCIS is likely going to lose in court over this. Here is the relevant text of the law[1]: --- (5) The numerical limitations contained in paragraph (1)(A) shall not apply to any nonimmigrant alien … who … (C) has earned a master’s or higher degree from a United States institution of higher education (as defined in section 1001(a) of title 20), until the number of aliens who are exempted from such numerical limitation during such year exceeds 20,000. (Emphasis added) --- Based on the literal interpretation of law I think it is absolutely clear that the law clearly wants Students not to be counted against the cap until the 20,000 Masters cap is filled. I do not see any way to implement current USCIS proposal without violating this clause. It appears to me that DHS is unable to afford any competent lawyers these days and constantly proposing things that are illegal and not properly thought through. Ignoring the legality of this move, this move does not benefit US society in any way. Implication that students with US masters degree are high skilled is pretty lame because majority of these students are from fly by night universities that do not even need GRE for admission. Most students after they are done with their masters work on OPT for around two years and seek sponsors for H1B during that time. Many of them simply approach body shoppers and consultancies which operate the low value spectrum of tech and will hire anyone. Also these are the companies at the forefront of most fraudulent activities. Based on some of the unverified insider information, USCIS director Cissna has had a plan for a four pronged assault on H1B. 1. Simply refuse to renew H1B beyond 6 years. This impacts mostly Indians. He failed to implement this policy after the memo leaked to press. 2. Slow down entire H1B process to the extent most employers lose interest. He has successfully done this. My wife's H1B was filed in April 2018 and was approved in January 2019. No matter how kickass coder she is no employer will ever want to get into that kind of hiring process. 3. Create a system where you simply waste H1B visas each year. One way is to increase the rejection rates for new visas. If out of 65K visas say 10K visas are rejected these are never filled. Second approach which he wanted to implement this year but failed is to have this concept of "pre-registration" which everyone including immigration lawyers applauded. This is a sinister move. Under this move any company can file a lottery even without hiring an employee. After winning the lottery the company may simply refuse to proceed and that visa is wasted. Since there is no serious fee involved here any company who does not even have a hiring plan can enter the lottery and win it. This means a large number of H1B visas will not be claimed at all. 4. Rescind the H4EAD program to hurt families on H1B. Again affects only Indian citizens on H1B. I am told USCIS is unable to come up with good reasons to rescind this program and hence it is delayed for more than 2 years now. H1B program is in a mess and current USCIS administration is acting in bad faith and making it worse, encouraging fraud and misuse. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/dhs-proposes-illegal-h-1b-reforms-which-could-cut-entries https://www.cato.org/blog/dhs-proposes-illegal-h-1b-reforms-...
paxys 8y ago
TL;DR - the cap is still at 85,000 visas/year, but this change will result in approximately 5,340 more applicants with master's degrees getting visas over those with just bachelor's. IMO it is a pretty insignificant change overall, since this is hardly a good metric in determining skill, and the system is still lottery based.
luckydata 8y ago
Honestly this is a good thing. Right now the H1B is a bullshit immigration program for cheap engineers from India and China designed to depress wages in silicon valley. A change is sorely needed, this is not big enough but it's definitely a step.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mc32 8y ago
  They should also work on a visa system for seasonal (low-skill) workers and enforce e-verify so that people don't skirt the system willy-nilly. We need foreign low skilled workers and they want to work, but we need to regulate that workforce so they don't undercut our native low-skills workforce by being unregulated and overwhelming the workforce with cheap unregulated labor.
  - SteveNuts 8y ago
    How do you keep them from overstaying though?
    - FakeComments 8y ago
      E-verify flags them as not having valid work authorization when their visa expires. If they reliably can’t find work when here illegally, then there’s less incentive to be here illegally.
    - ALittleLight 8y ago
      e-verify. If they don't have a job and regular income it won't make sense for them to stay.
    - mc32 8y ago
      Punish employers with heavy fines for e-verify violations. If no one hires you, no reason to stick around. This is what Japan does, Korea, Taiwan, etc. The US is way lenient on illegal entry and accommodating to irregular workers. In many countries the only way you get around that is if you work with the local mobsters --so only highly risk taking indivs take that opportunity.
b_tterc_p 8y ago
for what it is, this seems like a good change. Not a big change, but it should reduce the idiocy of letting people learn valuable things and then not letting them stay to use it.
- adventured 8y ago
  It's truly an absurdity how many foreign people US universities have educated with the US immigration laws then making it a nightmare to stay, become a US citizen, and make a valuable contribution to the US economy that made those universities possible in the first place. All progress toward not shooting ourselves in the foot is definitely a good thing.
ones_and_zeros 8y ago
Fine by me but H1-B should not be allowed to use the Level 1 or Level 2 wage designation the BLS defines, especially if they are masters students now that we are prioritizing masters degrees since we've decided they provide more value. Setting wages from level 1 and 2 is exactly what happens in a majority of these visas today and doesn't make sense that we are importing "skilled" labor, fresh out of mostly mediocre schools, at entry level wages to work on back office systems at companies that make generous profits quarter after quarter. Edit: I just looked it up, in 2018 nearly 72% of H1B applications that used the OES wage data in their LCA were either Level 1 or Level 2... Below are the (possibly dated?) definitions for Level 1 and 2[0]: Level I (entry) wage rates are assigned to job offers for beginning level employees who have only a basic understanding of the occupation. These employees perform routine tasks that require limited, if any, exercise of judgment. The tasks provide experience and familiarization with the employer’s methods, practices, and programs. The employees may perform higher level work for training and developmental purposes. These employees work under close supervision and receive specific instructions on required tasks and results expected. Their work is closely monitored and reviewed for accuracy. Statements that the job offer is for a research fellow, a worker in training, or an internship are indicators that a Level I wage should be considered. Level II (qualified) wage rates are assigned to job offers for qualified employees who have attained, either through education or experience, a good understanding of the occupation. They perform moderately complex tasks that require limited judgment. An indicator that the job request warrants a wage determination at Level II would be a requirement for years of education and/or experience that are generally required as described in the O*NET Job Zones. [0] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised_11_2009.pdf http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised...
throwawayh1btal 8y ago
As an H1B holder in tech without a masters degree, I'm conflicted. On one hand this may help industries other than tech to get more foreign applicants. But it does nothing to gauge talent or prefer talented people. Getting into a US college and continuing my higher education was always a dream for me but it never came to fruition because of my family background. If this process is left to market to decide - by way of say a bidding process by employers - I'm confident I'll be able to get in the top and beat out visa stuffing companies. But it'd be absolute chaos competing with them and advanced degree holders. Reduces the chance of people like me quite a bit. Getting a masters degree in the US is not that hard for someone with money and does not indicate talent at all in any way. I see this as just a way for upper middle class and rich people in India and China to migrate here and not based on talent.
- prepend 8y ago
  I think the reality is that the change will negatively impact you, and smart engineers without advanced degrees. That really stinks. The change doesn’t benefit everyone, but benefits foreign workers with advanced degrees looking to work (and hopefully immigrate) in the US, companies and local workers, because wages should increase at least a minor amount. But this means non-advanced degree workers lose out.
- AkshatM 8y ago
  I'm a prospective H1B applicant also without a US master's degree, and I think, while this does hurt people in our situation, the argument that the H1B must preferentially select talented people is flawed. The O1 visa category (for so-called aliens of extraordinary ability) is reserved for that purpose already, and is more stringent in terms of criteria. The H1B is a general-purpose skilled labour visa. It's designed to meet the needs of US companies who need to bring in specialized labour that the American labour pool cannot staff - not talented, but specialized. A master's degree at the least (and I don't recall the process needing it to be a master's degree from the States, though I could be misremembering and this would undo my point) is a good proxy for specialization. Outside of conforming to visa intent better, I think this change makes sense given the current caps on H1B issuance. If you're going to cap total H1Bs issued in an year to 85,000, why not favour the degree class that correlates better with talent (even if it's not a perfect predictor as has been pointed out)? I also doubt that this will affect that many people - raising the limit from 20,000 reserved entries for master's students (currenr case) to 25,000 means 5,000 fewer people without a master's get their H1Bs. In any given year, the chances of getting an H1B are 33% anyway (applications dwarf yearly caps by a factor of 3). It's a barely noticeable blip in what's already a painful immigration process. I would certainly like the US to have a progressive immigration policy. But I expect immigration policies to serve US interests, and this change does.
travisoneill1 8y ago
They should assign limits based on salary, lets say 150% of industry standard, not education level. There is no measure of skill less meaningful than a degree.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >There is no measure of skill less meaningful than a degree. I really don't see how salary is better. A higher salary is simply more correlated with the profitability of a company, not with the skills one has. People doing the same jobs at different companies can have vastly differing salaries. I should know - every time I've bumped up my salary, it's by moving to a position that required lower skills. The market does not pay high for skills. You'll get paid more if you switch from a job that requires advanced mathematics or physics skills to coding web/mobile apps.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Just fill the quota based on salary from highest base salary to lowest until you run out of visas. Who cares about industry standard?
  - ab_1717 8y ago
    This leads to a problem where locations with generally lower wages, while also needing skilled workers, cannot compete with locations that have generally higher wages.
- zjaffee 8y ago
  This would weirdly exert a greater downward pressure on salaries, as companies will have a higher supply of higher skill workers rather than just workers as a whole.
  - travisoneill1 8y ago
    How would this be a greater downward pressure than now where H1B's are used to undercut?
abhayb 8y ago
This will make getting work visas even harder for folks with only U.S. undergrad degrees. Expect growth in 4+1 and 3+1 integrated Masters programs to compensate. Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move. And given the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also reasonable. But a B.S. in CS is qualitatively equivalent to an M.S. The lack of nuance is not surprising but still unfortunate.
- raz32dust 8y ago
  "Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move. And given the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also reasonable." - Why do you think so?
  - abhayb 8y ago
    Roughly three parts to this. First off, these folks are already "here" . Busy learning to America. Paying tuition to their schools and taxes from their internships/OPTs. Contributing and being contributed to so that there's already a relationship between them, the country, and the country's citizens. This is also what a lot of other countries do so it's consistent with "the way things are done". Finally, it seems politically expedient. There are already provisions for prioritizing Masters degrees. This change is a modification of those provisions. That (crucially) doesn't have to go anywhere near the legislature. These particular masses are not huddled. Nor are they all leading lights (though some will grow into greatness in time) . So there are also plenty of reasonable arguments against this approach.
    - GreaterFool 8y ago
      > This is also what a lot of other countries do As an expat for the bigger part of my life I can't think of a country that would prioritize their own institutions when applying for a visa. Generally there's simply a category for advanced degree holders.
      - xtreme 8y ago
raz32dust 8y ago
It would have been a positive change if they did not have the restriction that the Masters must be from a US university. What's wrong with non-US universities? I don't see why degree even matters. Like someone suggested in a previous similar thread, just sorting by pay and giving higher wages more priority (perhaps with some sort of normalization to compensate for cost of living and the field of work) is much better.
- ones_and_zeros 8y ago
  It's a step toward the "staple a green card" immigration policy supported by both republicans and democrats. It's essentially a reversal from the historical "tired, poor, huddled masses" policy of immigration in America to something that is more in line with the rest of the neoliberal world.
- gedy 8y ago
  A handout to university tuitions and desperate researchers.
  - raz32dust 8y ago
    The cynic in me believes this is the real reason. Use foreign students to fund US universities in the name of immigration.
- sct202 8y ago
  It's a gamble to come to America to get educated (cost, cultural adjustment, visa issues), and I think that we should show preference to those students who have made that extra effort to live and study in America over other people.
  - ones_and_zeros 8y ago
    Like over other people fleeing dangerous situations (that the US may or may not be exacerbating?), war? genocide? famine? Seems like the US had the moral high ground prioritizing the down and out, now just another country only accessible if you have $$.
quotemstr 8y ago
Goodhart's Law [1] applies to this situation. I expect master's degrees to become more common and less rigorous. The whole qualification and lottery immigration system is, at best, economically inefficient. Instead of bothering with salary bands and education requirements, the government should auction off work visas, thereby ensuring that slots go to their most economically productive use. A cap-and-trade system lets the market find its own level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
jdlyga 8y ago
My now wife went through so much trouble with her H1-B, even though she graduated with a Master's from a United States university and was working in the United States. Yet she got stuck in the lottery system. Don't we want high skilled workers contributing to the economy? Even when we got married, we had to wait over a year for her green card for her and went through an interview. The immigration system is tough and cumbersome.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  With the new system, she will have a better chance at getting the visa. Why the concern? Edit: I'm being down voted, but I don't understand. The change actually prioritizes MS students.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Why should anyone be happy when there's a chance they won't be allowed to work? Even if the chance is lower, it's still something to be concerned about. (Edited)
    - BeetleB 8y ago
      Note that I never suggested one should be happy. And I'm not sure what you're proposing. Let anyone who is in the US be allowed to work and just give them an automatic H-1 visa? Or do that for people who have an MS degree or higher? If the latter, realize you are providing a criterion - one which someone with just a high school degree can say the same as you said: >Even if the chance is lower, it's still not right. If you accept that there needs to be some criterion, then it's simply a matter of where the line is drawn - and most people draw the line that conveniently works for them. For the person who posted this, the change in rules improves the chances of someone in the situation his wife was in.
- shard972 8y ago
  Doesan't the country she came from also want her contributing to their economy?
djinnandtonic 8y ago
Paywalled.
- freewizard 8y ago
  https://www.axios.com/immigration-h-1b-dhs-foreign-workers-final-rule-bbd0a51e-c8c1-4ee1-a353-1dd689ba48e4.html https://www.axios.com/immigration-h-1b-dhs-foreign-workers-f...
- dan_dev_this 8y ago
  https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-revamped-to-favor-workers-with-degrees-from-us-universities-2019-01-30 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-revamped...
sandeepvk 8y ago
now i can come to US too
sandeepvk 8y ago
now i can go to US too
joshe 8y ago
I've worked with a few H1-B holders in Silicon Valley and they're awesome. A great improvement would be to allow H1B holders to change jobs easily (maybe after a year). It's too easy for them to get stuck in not great situations. It would be great for everyone if they could move to better fitting jobs, especially for startups who have trouble running H1-B programs. If you are, like me, a software engineer, you should cheer every immigrant. They aren't competitors, they are complements and create more jobs. Economics is complicated and sometimes counterintuitive, but just because "immigrants lower wages" is "common knowledge" doesn't make it true. [1] To prime your intuition a bit, consider how woman and minorities more than doubled the work force from the 1960s to 1990s with no loss in jobs or lowering of wages. And if you are in SV consider that more than half of public tech companies were created by 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. 1st generation founders include Sergey Brin, Max Levchin, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Pierre Omidyar, Stewart Butterfield, Sebastion Thrun, and Patrick and John Collison. [2] [1] https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014/05/01/the-economics-of-immigration-a-story-of-substitutes-and-complements https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014... [2] https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-mary-meeker-immigration-tech-founders-jobs-slides-code-conference https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-ma...
- ttul 8y ago
  Stewart is still pretty Canadian... His primary residence is in Vancouver last I checked. I mean, the whole city would probably start crying if he permanently left.
- ones_and_zeros 8y ago
  A great improvement would be to give them citizenship if they want it. The economic impact of immigrants is not under debate, however your examples are poor choices as I don't think any of those people came to the US on an H1B visa. If anything it's an argument against H1B.
  - joshe 8y ago
    Yep, totally where I was going with that. One H1-B guy I worked with did in fact become a founder of a small successful firm, but that was after he got a green card. I think we've lost out on a few billion dollar startups and awesome inventions by locking people to the H1-B job they got hired for.
1024core 8y ago
I don't think this will have that much of an impact (of course, it'll impact a good number of people). The highest impact would be if they allowed easy H1B transfer to other companies with similar jobs. Right now, H1B is pretty much like indentured servitude (it has become better in the past few years, and it was waaay worse at one time). The other change would be to give priority based on salary. That will encourage H1B employers to pay more; thus, attracting more USCs.
GreaterFool 8y ago
While I think allocating more visas to advanced degree holders is a good idea, why restrict it to US institutions? Weird.
jefftk 8y ago
Why don't we auction off H1B slots, either directly (government gets the money) or via the companies offering the highest comp getting to bring people in? You could also do some combination of the two.
tumidpandora 8y ago
As an immigrant myself, I welcome this move. Please note that this change impacts issuance of fresh H1Bs and does not relate to or assist/impact existing H1B holders in any way. Against common misconception, it's important to know that H1B also compete for an open job requisition like everyone else. Sadly, H1Bs are eligible to apply only for a small percentage of the open requisitions which often read - only W2 need apply (implying people with green cards / work authorizations or citizens) and sometimes explicitly as - 'accepting applications from green card holders and citizens only'. H1B are also mostly 'stuck' to their current jobs / positions and do not have the flexibility to switch jobs (until they reach a certain stage in their visa). They're allowed to switch but this requires the hiring org to reprocess their green card application from scratch in majority of the cases. This is especially true from people from India and China. It's one thing to say - you're allowed to switch, it another to be able to actually do it without getting penalized or expect your hiring org to invest into your green card process. I could go on but i'd sum this up as there's more to h1b than meets the eye and what's out there isn't a true and complete representation of an Indian or Chinese h1b worker. It's tough to be in the shoes of an H1B who's worked and lived here and made a life for his family, yet lives in fear and uncertainty of losing his job or work authorization everyday. Selection for a job should be based on merit and your personal / professional qualifications among other factors, and not with a bias towards your visa status. The best man for the job.
- jarjar12 8y ago
  They live in fear because most of them are garbage. They produce garbage and make others lives miserable. And the ones that actually worked hard can’t afford to even get a job because h1bs take such a low pay
  - untog 8y ago
    There are bad developers. There are bad developers on H1B visas. There are good developers. There are good developers on H1B visas. If your company hired a shitty developer then you should be blaming you company's hiring practises, not the immigration status of the developer.
fourier_mode 8y ago
Although it can be good for people from a personal point of view. However, the Trump administration is trying to create a state of elitists. This administration has time and again tried to establish this. I am not a big fan of this idea. I would rather prefer more applicants entering through the lottery system, and maybe a bit more preference for the struggling nations, or those who have been hit due to US' global politics.
Tycho 8y ago
Fun thought experiment is to think what would happen if you told ____s to replace ____s. What would happen if you took programmers and told them to fill the roles of teachers? What would happen if you took teachers and told them to replace programmers? What would happen if you took policemen and told them to manage portfolios? What would happen if you took nurses and told them to replace lawyers? In some cases, everything would grind to a halt. In others, things would rattle on but perhaps in a suboptimal manner. I suppose there's a few variables like training time, and whether a job has some sort of 'coasting' option, eg. portfolio managers could just buy the index and come out OK.
tr33house 8y ago
Unfortunately, the more school == more skilled proxy doesn't always works and often fails in tech where informal experience matters
- picacho 8y ago
  more school != more skilled proxy should have it's range. A rank 100+ cs grad school is quite obvious showing a person's learning skill if anyone knows how applying for a cs master in the USA works. One could argue a UCSC graduate doesn't have a good skill set but hardly to say a SIT graduate has a better learning skill. And a SIT graduate is also a 'master' of science in cs, which is able to participate the 'advance' degree h1b lottery slot. How absurd..
jarjar12 8y ago
Haha. So silly. Now all these folks have to do is bribe colleges in India to give them fake transcripts and diplomas. Half of the h1bs from India already have fake masters or at best masters from low graded crap colleges. The Indian consulting firms throw so many shitty developers at us and it sucks because we drown in resumes and no choice because my company won’t go higher on rates so we can’t afford good developers. These h1bs are as good as entry level sophomores in US colleges.
- villgax 8y ago
  The preference IMO is for Advanced degrees granted by US institutions & is the same basis as was before, instead now just the priority for filling up the pool is for masters degree holders first.
chrisper 8y ago
It's kind of weird that work experience can't replace the master degree in this case.
jorblumesea 8y ago
Why do we care about a masters degree from some India degree farm? It seems like the emphasis on accreditation misses the point entirely. There's no quality control in the US immigration process. For every brilliant engineer we get someone garbage. For every innovator or entrepreneur we get someone who is just the mother's uncle's in-law.
- thewhitetulip 8y ago
  Contrary to the rhetoric, unless you are buying your degree from shitty colleges which exist on paper, it's very difficult to get bachelor's and master's degree in India. I'm an Indian and I know that because the entrance exams are tough. But yes, emphasis on masters degree missed the point.
jl2718 8y ago
Education level seems really arbitrary and exploitable. Maybe auction work visas for income tax bonds. Pay interest so that new grads can bid for them through lenders.
- anticensor 8y ago
  That would be even more exploitable and cause an uncontrollable immigration policy. You would get vast numbers of Muslim extremist immigrants who would refuse to adapt and wreak havoc, like Syrian refuge crisis in Turkey.
peferron 8y ago
H-4 holders (spouses of H-1B, for the uninitiated) should be allowed to work. That they don't is inhuman and de facto hurts women, since the overwhelming majority of H-1B holders (at least in the Valley) are men. It's forcing women into a stay-at-home role as if it were the 50s. It's especially hard for H-4s because they are newcomers to the USA who may not have local friends or family. My wife went through it for a while and it's incredibly isolating.
- baby 8y ago
  I know a bunch of people on H-4, it's really really sad :/
- dudus 8y ago
  That's a great point. Specially because L-2 holders can work. I never understood why it was different for H-4
- keegancsmith 8y ago
  I was an h1b holder working in Silicon Valley. My wife not being able to work was the main reason why we left after 2 years. Kind of silly to go through that whole song and dance of getting a skilled person to move across the world only to treat the spouse as if the only purpose they have is home keeping.
  - digianarchist 8y ago
    Same with the TN visa. Spouses of Australian citizens can work though on the E3 visa.
- makeset 8y ago
  Same thing with F-2 holders (spouses of F-1 student visas). In contrast, J-2 holders (spouses of J-1 exchange students) are allowed to work.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  It is unfortunate that the feminist movement in SV, who are very vocal about the plight of women in the tech workforce, have been silent about the current administration's attempts to revoke H4-EAD.
picacho 8y ago
define high-skilled workers. Currently an steven's institute graduate cs master could get a h1b visa by lottery while a Harvard graduate might not be that lucky. Consider this, is knowing how to use kubernetes anything harder than working in a Physics Lab? The system is flawed~~
alkibiades 8y ago
so more privileged/rich chinese and indians and less anyone else? (including american workers?) (watch anything not pro-immigration be downvoted to hell)
simplecomplex 8y ago
This is a sad day for the USA, as we move further from the principles that made us great. This is discrimination, and nothing to celebrate. People without degrees deserve equal treatment. People who want to work lower-paid jobs deserve equal treatment. America should stand for liberty, personal responsibility, and equality of opportunity. Not racism and elitism. Our immigration laws continue to be a stain on this great nation.
blocked_again 8y ago
I opened the article with so many expectations. Then realized it changes nothing. How does having enough money to get a masters from US make one high skilled developer? The only people who are going to benefit from this are the American Universities.
- vilifiedtwin 8y ago
  Exactly that. I know so many people with masters degree that cannot code at all. They only learned how to pass exams but have no ability to solve problems on their own. I would argue that talented people would rather avoid a place where they cannot learn anything useful and universities more and more become just that. My view is that the US shoots themselves in a foot and that is good for other countries.
sbmthakur 8y ago
Couldn't read this due to the Subscription/Sign-in wall. May I know how does this affect Masters(Computer Science) students in the US. I've got few friends studying there now.
rajacombinator 8y ago
H1B is indentured servitude, that’s why corporate America loves it. This measure will do nothing but increase masters mill programs, punishing both smart immigrants and Americans. Basically, another brutal, but expected, betrayal of campaign promises by the hapless Trump administration.
thewhitetulip 8y ago
Can someone tell me this, if H1B visas were stopped then what will happen? Won't all these companies just set up operations in India/China? Or will they expand in US itself?
Zombiethrowaway 8y ago
"master’s or higher degree from a U.S. institution" This puts at a competitive disadvantage international universities over US ones, regardless of education performance. It sounds like protectionism, which will translate into more foreign students applying for US universities, driving education costs even higher. You will now definitely buy a degree/name, not so much an education. Sad.
- raquo 8y ago
  "accomplished a degree in a host country and obtained a relevant job offer thereafter" is a very good proxy for a lot of desirable properties in immigrants, at least in Canada (per official statistics). Besides, foreign education credentials and work experience can be very easy to fake depending on home country, so it's understandable that it's worth less in the eyes of immigration systems. In Canada we have lots of foreign students, and while there are some issues (nothing is perfect), they pay much more than domestic students, essentially funding the higher education institutions. Education is some of the best things you can export, if done properly.
  - hocuspocus 8y ago
    Thing is, if you want to hire foreign, experienced, high-skilled workers, by definition they won't hold a US degree. The current system favors immigrants that can afford a Master's degree at low-tier for-profit universities (see what happened to the Silicon Valley University). The change will take this even further. Canada has a non-trivial but straightforward path to permanent residency that tries to be fair to both domestic students and experienced immigrants. It's not really comparable.
sathishvj 8y ago
What happens if somebody has taken a remote master's course from a US university? Is there a note on that? p.s. it does not apply to me anyways, but just want to know.
abhij89 8y ago
for non-subscribed users: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-in-h-1b-lottery-order-first-priority-to-us-degree-holders/articleshow/67764048.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-in-h-1...
known 8y ago
H1B = Organised mafia
4ad 8y ago
I have extensive experience working in the industry for the past 13 years, but I don't even have a bachelor's degree. Am I screwed?
self_awareness 8y ago
Non-paywall URL: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-effect-april-1-changing-tech-companies-hire-foreign-born-talent/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-effec... Not the same article but seems like it's the same subject.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
DrAwdeOccarim 8y ago
I see a lot of people complain that H1B is used to import cheap tech workers. In biotech, I haven't seem this as a problem. In fact, I just sponsored a few of my employees to get H1Bs and it worked out fine. This seems like a solution from the tech side of things, but in the biotech side of things I don't think this was a problem because everyone was already high-skilled?
dalbasal 8y ago
Honestly, I have a hard time with the norms around "worker visas," internationally including the US. I can't understand the liberal (both right and left) preferance for something that seems (to me) at odds with freedom (as in speech). On one end of the spectrum we have thingslike middle east guest workers, almost an indentured service arrangment. On the other end, we have SV tech workers and similar elswhere. What protects the higher earning workers is their higher earnings, which gives them more options and leverage. Regardless most are bound to an employer, one way or another. They inarguably have much less freedom. They can't make the same choices (eg. work part time, career break). Other choices require bureaucratic approval (change job, start a business, go to uni). If citizens were subjected to these sorts of restrictions, it would be considered a liberal travesty. Since when is liberty subject to citizenship? To be clear, I'm not against skilled migration. In practice, i think there would be almost no negatives to allowing skilled migrants (same criteria) their freedom.
- cylinder 8y ago
  I'm an immigration lawyer and completely opposed to employer sponsored temporary visas. Either let someone in independently or don't let them in at all. The power it gives the employer is ridiculous.
- masklinn 8y ago
  > Since when is liberty subject to citizenship? Since citizenship has existed, meaning pretty much when the first legal systems arose? Providing different sets of rights and duties is the entire point of separating citizens and non-citizens. Hell, the greek polis were mostly about duties, the rights were mostly implicit and incident to being active in running the the community's affairs.
  - dalbasal 8y ago
    I'm speaking within the context of liberalism, as a set of ideals.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  I think this is one of the unintended consequences of strong welfare states. If your government spends $xx,xxx per resident per year then someone who arrives and doesn't contribute at least $xx,xxx is a net drain on resources. At the VERY least, you need to ensure your population produces at least $xx,xxx per year in gov't revenue. While I am strongly in support of things like free healthcare, education, etc. I can also see how adding residents who aren't net contributors threatens those systems. If Canada let any 60 year old American with health problems immigrae regardless of their ability to help pay for the health system it would reduce care for existing Canadian residents. After all, they're almost certainly going to cost more over their life than they kick in via tax. Of course, the same argument can go dark places, like forcing people to get exit visas to leave. After all, the state put a lot of money in to your upbringing, you owe them! Current visa regimes work pretty well to encourage this sort of behaviour. Young, educated people with lots of promise who will work hard (thus the tie to employment) or old people with millions can move. Others, well, can't. Barring that, sometimes less-educated people can move but in ways that try to ensure they don't become a burden (you work here for a set time and then you're kicked out) I sometimes wonder if the current system of heavy indebtedness for school and housing helps ensure people work as hard as possible and pay as much in taxes as possible as opposed to allowing them more leisure. Without having to cover a mortgage or health insurance, how many people would work part time? Or how many couples would have a stay at home parent? There were fewer formal barriers to moving not that long ago. The US had pretty much unrestricted immigration in the 19th century, but it also spent very little per resident. Passport restrictions in Europe showed up for WWI (well, briefly for Napoleon too IIRC) and never really left, probably because WWI also roughly coincided with cheap international travel.
dschn_dstryr 8y ago
HN should make a rule against articles behind paywalls.
wufufufu 8y ago
My parents are immigrants. I wish we would just let in a random sample of the global population instead of having selection factors. Or maybe not let in any immigrants at all. The purpose of these kinds of requirements is to bring in workers for rich American CEOs. It's not because we enjoy the company of immigrants or want to learn their culture. Artificial selection for master degrees just creates stereotypes and leads to things like "the model minority". Imagine if we only let in strong physical laborers and the type of stereotypes and race dynamics that would create. The kind of cultural displacement you feel as an immigrant that is toiling away in a lab to try to serve some rich CEO while you're away from all your like-minded friends/family is depressing. I haven't read literature on this, it's just my gut feeling.
- digianarchist 8y ago
  That's what the DV lottery is with the exception of they exclude countries that have a high number of people already immigrating to the United States.
seshagiric 8y ago
It's actually a good move: a. Trump can now say he 'fixed' the h1-b system :) b. Due to all the visa restrictions talks, US universities were seeing drop in foreign MS students, that will likely get fixed.
winter_blue 8y ago
The sheer and staggering amount of hatred for immigrants in here is appalling. If people had the same hatred for immigrants a 100 years, most of the ancestors of the balls of hatred on this thread would have been excluded. The skilled immigrant limit is a joke -- approximately 0.02% of the population. Also, incredibly hard: https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-system-broken https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-system-bro...
OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
intentionally lacking a certain keyword
notyourloops 8y ago
He campaigned on the opposite, didn't he?
- nojvek 8y ago
  Probably not the popular opinion here but the way I see trump is he was campaigning hard against “illegal immigration”. He didn’t explicitly say he’s against highly skilled immigration. Trump may be an idiot but it seems people incharge of immigration have their head straight and H1Bs are in sore need of a revamp. I hope the trend continues. America works because hard working and talented people want to come here and make beautiful things people want and build their dreams.
  - notyourloops 8y ago
    I thought I remember it being a campaign position, mainly stemming from it applying downward wage pressure on tech workers. It looks like it used to be but then he changed it. > Donald Trump signaled a shift in his stance on visas for highly-skilled workers Thursday night, moving away from the position he took on his campaign website. Source: https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/trump-immigration-h1b-visas-gop-debate-220233 https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates... Looks like he's flip-flopped a few times.
brookhaven_dude 8y ago
They lost an opportunity to really overhaul the system that would have drawn support from liberal groups. Like turning H1B allocation process into an auction - let the company that offers highest compensation win the visa. And associating the visa with the employee not the employer, so they are free to switch around.
smg 8y ago
The most important thing that needs to be changed about the H1B program is how the green card is linked to your particular employer. The H1B program is almost like indentured servitude for the vast majority of workers of Indian or Chinese origin because of the delay in getting a green card. It would be impossible for any employer to exploit H1B workers if the visa was not linked to an employer but to the tax paid by the worker. As long as the worker stays in a particular (federal) tax bracket the worker should be allowed to engage in any work that they desired.
calvinbhai 8y ago
As an immigrant from India, who worked in the US on H1B, I welcome this change, because this increases the chances of weeding out the bad apples and increases the chances for the good ones to get an H1b visa. This at least encourages genuine direct employers to hire those who have already contributed to the US economy (by paying out of state tuition which funds/subsidizes the university education of US resident/citizen students) With this rule change, it certainly is better than what it was earlier. How could this be made even better? Make it such that those who studied in the US are not in the lottery. Meaning, give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US, and lottery with the remaining visas to those who didn't study in the US. That way, the downward trend of international student admissions will reduce, and help the universities and all the students.
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  > give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US Agreed. I studied in the US, wasn't even applying for jobs and had job offers. But, I didn't have work authorization so I couldn't take them. I went back to Canada for years before I was able to get back again. I'm not mad, but the system could definitely be improved for those who are qualified. If we're going to compete with China, Russia, India, etc we have to do everything to attract and keep the best minds here.
  - calvinbhai 8y ago
    True. I'm not mad with US immigration issues either. It's more like I feel sad for the country, which has such potential, and they are missing out on having high skilled immigrants live and pay taxes in the US. Since I'm fed up with US permanent residency process (as an India born person, there's no point in applying), I'm working remote from outside US, as a contractor with a US company and paying Canada taxes (I almost bought a house in the US, before I decided to get a Canada PR. US's loss, Canada's gain).
- hart_russell 8y ago
  I would agree with the caveat that it has to be a master's or phd. There would be way too many graduates with bachelor's.
redditmigrant 8y ago
The discussion here is reflective of the problem that plagues immigration law. Any change to immigration system is not looked at through an incrementality lens, but through the lens of the overall system and its problems. This change makes it more likely for graduates of US universities to get H1B visas, yet the discussion is on the overall merit of H1Bs. Exact same thing happens with solving the problem of country based caps on green cards which disadvantages people based on an attribute that they have no control over - their country of birth. Any change proposed to country based caps is looked at with whether the overall high skilled immigration system is good or not. Its like no one wants to fix any bugs and people are only interested in a complete system rewrite. So every bug report and code review becomes a discussion platform for the problems of the overall system.
picacho 8y ago
if you have 13 years experience and don't even have a bachelor's degree, you are not screwed, just stay where you are, unless you are as good as Linus T, just stay where you are, we have lots of talents with > 13years experience without a degree here in the US already :-)
true_tuna 8y ago
Does anyone actually read the WSJ links that get posted here? It’s subscription only so linking from here only works if you already subscribe, at which point you’re not linking from hacker news...
known 8y ago
95% people prefer to quit India due to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo... and https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answer/Adarsh-Sapoota https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answer/Ad...

469 points by godelmachine 8y ago

JacobJans 8y ago

Why is copyright infringement tolerated on HN?

JacobJans 8y ago
Instead of downvoting, maybe answer my question.
- tantalor 8y ago
  "Information wants to be free" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free
  - mc32 8y ago
    That's only half the quote: >On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other You're omitting the counterbalancing force.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Free your SSN and mother's maiden name to me please.
    - stale2002 8y ago
      Are you aware that SSNs have absolutely nothing to do with copyright law? They aren't covered by that.
      - oh_sigh 8y ago
        I'm responding to "information wants to be free". I don't think the quote is "only copyrighted information wants to be free"
        stale2002 8y ago
        The thread is specifically about copyright information. I am not sure why you made a comment about completely unrelated information that has nothing to do with the fundamental question regarding copyrighted information. The term "information wants to be free", obviously is about the commericalization of information. It has nothing to do with privacy.
        oh_sigh 8y ago
        And the quote I'm responding to is generally about information.
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  Because people don’t care
perfmode 8y ago
This site is called hacker news.
bsder 8y ago
Why are paywalled articles tolerated on HN? Personally, I would feel no loss if all paywalled articles were simply omitted.
- bb88 8y ago
  I would like to see a paywall icon. So I could just not bother to click the link.
- freddie_mercury 8y ago
  People upvote the content they want to see. Implicitly, whether something is paywalled or not is already included in that judgment. What's more, people keep upvoting paywalled content because non-paywalled content isn't providing the same level of content. By not tolerating paywalled content you are making an explicit call for less content of the type that HN readers say they want to see. You could make the argument that HN readers shouldn't upvote the things they are upvoting, that HN would be a better place if people didn't upvote the things they are upvoting, or that there might be a longer term benefit to be gained from accepting short term losses by eschewing paywalled articles. Those are all things people could argue. But the fact that they show up on the front page with regular basis is explicit evidence that, even if you feel they have no value, other people do.
  - bsder 8y ago
    > Implicitly, whether something is paywalled or not is already included in that judgment. No, it's not. If those of us who despise this could downvote the article, then your statement would be correct.
gumby 8y ago
There is no infringement in posting that link. People who click on it may or may not be infringing (that's really unclear).
arkades 8y ago
The journal(ist) doesn’t own the information in the article, just their particular execution of conveying that information. Altering that execution isn’t copyright infringement, though admittedly, outline puts its toes right up to the line.
ridgeguy 8y ago
Because some subscribe to criteria of "fair use" that differ from yours.
whoisjuan 8y ago
I think what shouldn't be tolerated are paywalled articles. How are you supposed to discuss something that is not freely distributed?
harshulpandav 8y ago
I don't see outline making money out of it (I can't see any ads). Plus it gives credit to the original page as a link on the top left corner (I'm viewing on mobile browser).
- DanBC 8y ago
  Neither of those stop it being infringement.
- codycraven 8y ago
  This in not how copyright in the US works. Making money has absolutely nothing to do with the criteria of infringement.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  I don't think financial gain is a necessary component of copyright infringement? Though it may make your punishment worse.
stale2002 8y ago
Because screw copyright, thats why.
dang 8y ago
Please don't post like this. It's tedious and always the same. This is in the FAQ at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and there's more explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19041410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19041410 and marked it off-topic.

xfitm3 8y ago

https://outline.com/cSY3HL https://outline.com/cSY3HL

uchman 8y ago
Much appreciated :)
godelmachine 8y ago
Thanks a ton :)
benmarten 8y ago
isn't that page going against wsj's terms?
- gesman 8y ago
  Most people would rather read article than terms.

prickledpear 8y ago

I'm trying to understand exactly what is changing. From the article are they just switching the order of the two lotteries? They aren't actually raising the number of visas offered, right? This just has the effect of allocating more of the 85,000 visas granted to those with a Master's degree or PhD, right? I'm sure the universities that heavily recruit international students to their graduate programs will love this.

uchman 8y ago
Yes this is my understanding as well
ufo 8y ago
Graduate students are either on F or J visas. The article is talking about H-1B visas.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  20K visas are reserved for those who had F visa in past and completed a US masters degree.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  A large number (most?) of the H-1B visas go to students on F visas who have a job offer and want to change their status. Almost all the foreigners that I know on H-1B visas in my company came from a F visa. Some definitely were recruited from abroad, but it's simple economics. With so many people graduating from US universities, it's a lot easier to interview and subsequently apply for an H-1B for someone already here.
KorematsuFred 8y ago
Yes. Total number of visas are not increased but people with US Masters degree will have a higher chance of winning the lottery. I am not a lawyer but based on my reading of the law USCIS is likely going to lose in court over this. Here is the relevant text of the law[1]: --- (5) The numerical limitations contained in paragraph (1)(A) shall not apply to any nonimmigrant alien … who … (C) has earned a master’s or higher degree from a United States institution of higher education (as defined in section 1001(a) of title 20), until the number of aliens who are exempted from such numerical limitation during such year exceeds 20,000. (Emphasis added) --- Based on the literal interpretation of law I think it is absolutely clear that the law clearly wants Students not to be counted against the cap until the 20,000 Masters cap is filled. I do not see any way to implement current USCIS proposal without violating this clause. It appears to me that DHS is unable to afford any competent lawyers these days and constantly proposing things that are illegal and not properly thought through. Ignoring the legality of this move, this move does not benefit US society in any way. Implication that students with US masters degree are high skilled is pretty lame because majority of these students are from fly by night universities that do not even need GRE for admission. Most students after they are done with their masters work on OPT for around two years and seek sponsors for H1B during that time. Many of them simply approach body shoppers and consultancies which operate the low value spectrum of tech and will hire anyone. Also these are the companies at the forefront of most fraudulent activities. Based on some of the unverified insider information, USCIS director Cissna has had a plan for a four pronged assault on H1B. 1. Simply refuse to renew H1B beyond 6 years. This impacts mostly Indians. He failed to implement this policy after the memo leaked to press. 2. Slow down entire H1B process to the extent most employers lose interest. He has successfully done this. My wife's H1B was filed in April 2018 and was approved in January 2019. No matter how kickass coder she is no employer will ever want to get into that kind of hiring process. 3. Create a system where you simply waste H1B visas each year. One way is to increase the rejection rates for new visas. If out of 65K visas say 10K visas are rejected these are never filled. Second approach which he wanted to implement this year but failed is to have this concept of "pre-registration" which everyone including immigration lawyers applauded. This is a sinister move. Under this move any company can file a lottery even without hiring an employee. After winning the lottery the company may simply refuse to proceed and that visa is wasted. Since there is no serious fee involved here any company who does not even have a hiring plan can enter the lottery and win it. This means a large number of H1B visas will not be claimed at all. 4. Rescind the H4EAD program to hurt families on H1B. Again affects only Indian citizens on H1B. I am told USCIS is unable to come up with good reasons to rescind this program and hence it is delayed for more than 2 years now. H1B program is in a mess and current USCIS administration is acting in bad faith and making it worse, encouraging fraud and misuse. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/dhs-proposes-illegal-h-1b-reforms-which-could-cut-entries https://www.cato.org/blog/dhs-proposes-illegal-h-1b-reforms-...

paxys 8y ago

TL;DR - the cap is still at 85,000 visas/year, but this change will result in approximately 5,340 more applicants with master's degrees getting visas over those with just bachelor's. IMO it is a pretty insignificant change overall, since this is hardly a good metric in determining skill, and the system is still lottery based.

luckydata 8y ago

Honestly this is a good thing. Right now the H1B is a bullshit immigration program for cheap engineers from India and China designed to depress wages in silicon valley. A change is sorely needed, this is not big enough but it's definitely a step.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mc32 8y ago
They should also work on a visa system for seasonal (low-skill) workers and enforce e-verify so that people don't skirt the system willy-nilly. We need foreign low skilled workers and they want to work, but we need to regulate that workforce so they don't undercut our native low-skills workforce by being unregulated and overwhelming the workforce with cheap unregulated labor.
- SteveNuts 8y ago
  How do you keep them from overstaying though?
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    E-verify flags them as not having valid work authorization when their visa expires. If they reliably can’t find work when here illegally, then there’s less incentive to be here illegally.
  - ALittleLight 8y ago
    e-verify. If they don't have a job and regular income it won't make sense for them to stay.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Punish employers with heavy fines for e-verify violations. If no one hires you, no reason to stick around. This is what Japan does, Korea, Taiwan, etc. The US is way lenient on illegal entry and accommodating to irregular workers. In many countries the only way you get around that is if you work with the local mobsters --so only highly risk taking indivs take that opportunity.

b_tterc_p 8y ago

for what it is, this seems like a good change. Not a big change, but it should reduce the idiocy of letting people learn valuable things and then not letting them stay to use it.

adventured 8y ago
It's truly an absurdity how many foreign people US universities have educated with the US immigration laws then making it a nightmare to stay, become a US citizen, and make a valuable contribution to the US economy that made those universities possible in the first place. All progress toward not shooting ourselves in the foot is definitely a good thing.

ones_and_zeros 8y ago

Fine by me but H1-B should not be allowed to use the Level 1 or Level 2 wage designation the BLS defines, especially if they are masters students now that we are prioritizing masters degrees since we've decided they provide more value. Setting wages from level 1 and 2 is exactly what happens in a majority of these visas today and doesn't make sense that we are importing "skilled" labor, fresh out of mostly mediocre schools, at entry level wages to work on back office systems at companies that make generous profits quarter after quarter. Edit: I just looked it up, in 2018 nearly 72% of H1B applications that used the OES wage data in their LCA were either Level 1 or Level 2... Below are the (possibly dated?) definitions for Level 1 and 2[0]: Level I (entry) wage rates are assigned to job offers for beginning level employees who have only a basic understanding of the occupation. These employees perform routine tasks that require limited, if any, exercise of judgment. The tasks provide experience and familiarization with the employer’s methods, practices, and programs. The employees may perform higher level work for training and developmental purposes. These employees work under close supervision and receive specific instructions on required tasks and results expected. Their work is closely monitored and reviewed for accuracy. Statements that the job offer is for a research fellow, a worker in training, or an internship are indicators that a Level I wage should be considered. Level II (qualified) wage rates are assigned to job offers for qualified employees who have attained, either through education or experience, a good understanding of the occupation. They perform moderately complex tasks that require limited judgment. An indicator that the job request warrants a wage determination at Level II would be a requirement for years of education and/or experience that are generally required as described in the O*NET Job Zones. [0] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised_11_2009.pdf http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised...

throwawayh1btal 8y ago

As an H1B holder in tech without a masters degree, I'm conflicted. On one hand this may help industries other than tech to get more foreign applicants. But it does nothing to gauge talent or prefer talented people. Getting into a US college and continuing my higher education was always a dream for me but it never came to fruition because of my family background. If this process is left to market to decide - by way of say a bidding process by employers - I'm confident I'll be able to get in the top and beat out visa stuffing companies. But it'd be absolute chaos competing with them and advanced degree holders. Reduces the chance of people like me quite a bit. Getting a masters degree in the US is not that hard for someone with money and does not indicate talent at all in any way. I see this as just a way for upper middle class and rich people in India and China to migrate here and not based on talent.

prepend 8y ago
I think the reality is that the change will negatively impact you, and smart engineers without advanced degrees. That really stinks. The change doesn’t benefit everyone, but benefits foreign workers with advanced degrees looking to work (and hopefully immigrate) in the US, companies and local workers, because wages should increase at least a minor amount. But this means non-advanced degree workers lose out.
AkshatM 8y ago
I'm a prospective H1B applicant also without a US master's degree, and I think, while this does hurt people in our situation, the argument that the H1B must preferentially select talented people is flawed. The O1 visa category (for so-called aliens of extraordinary ability) is reserved for that purpose already, and is more stringent in terms of criteria. The H1B is a general-purpose skilled labour visa. It's designed to meet the needs of US companies who need to bring in specialized labour that the American labour pool cannot staff - not talented, but specialized. A master's degree at the least (and I don't recall the process needing it to be a master's degree from the States, though I could be misremembering and this would undo my point) is a good proxy for specialization. Outside of conforming to visa intent better, I think this change makes sense given the current caps on H1B issuance. If you're going to cap total H1Bs issued in an year to 85,000, why not favour the degree class that correlates better with talent (even if it's not a perfect predictor as has been pointed out)? I also doubt that this will affect that many people - raising the limit from 20,000 reserved entries for master's students (currenr case) to 25,000 means 5,000 fewer people without a master's get their H1Bs. In any given year, the chances of getting an H1B are 33% anyway (applications dwarf yearly caps by a factor of 3). It's a barely noticeable blip in what's already a painful immigration process. I would certainly like the US to have a progressive immigration policy. But I expect immigration policies to serve US interests, and this change does.

travisoneill1 8y ago

They should assign limits based on salary, lets say 150% of industry standard, not education level. There is no measure of skill less meaningful than a degree.

BeetleB 8y ago
>There is no measure of skill less meaningful than a degree. I really don't see how salary is better. A higher salary is simply more correlated with the profitability of a company, not with the skills one has. People doing the same jobs at different companies can have vastly differing salaries. I should know - every time I've bumped up my salary, it's by moving to a position that required lower skills. The market does not pay high for skills. You'll get paid more if you switch from a job that requires advanced mathematics or physics skills to coding web/mobile apps.
barry-cotter 8y ago
Just fill the quota based on salary from highest base salary to lowest until you run out of visas. Who cares about industry standard?
- ab_1717 8y ago
  This leads to a problem where locations with generally lower wages, while also needing skilled workers, cannot compete with locations that have generally higher wages.
zjaffee 8y ago
This would weirdly exert a greater downward pressure on salaries, as companies will have a higher supply of higher skill workers rather than just workers as a whole.
- travisoneill1 8y ago
  How would this be a greater downward pressure than now where H1B's are used to undercut?

abhayb 8y ago

This will make getting work visas even harder for folks with only U.S. undergrad degrees. Expect growth in 4+1 and 3+1 integrated Masters programs to compensate. Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move. And given the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also reasonable. But a B.S. in CS is qualitatively equivalent to an M.S. The lack of nuance is not surprising but still unfortunate.

raz32dust 8y ago
"Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move. And given the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also reasonable." - Why do you think so?
- abhayb 8y ago
  Roughly three parts to this. First off, these folks are already "here" . Busy learning to America. Paying tuition to their schools and taxes from their internships/OPTs. Contributing and being contributed to so that there's already a relationship between them, the country, and the country's citizens. This is also what a lot of other countries do so it's consistent with "the way things are done". Finally, it seems politically expedient. There are already provisions for prioritizing Masters degrees. This change is a modification of those provisions. That (crucially) doesn't have to go anywhere near the legislature. These particular masses are not huddled. Nor are they all leading lights (though some will grow into greatness in time) . So there are also plenty of reasonable arguments against this approach.
  - GreaterFool 8y ago
    > This is also what a lot of other countries do As an expat for the bigger part of my life I can't think of a country that would prioritize their own institutions when applying for a visa. Generally there's simply a category for advanced degree holders.
    - xtreme 8y ago

raz32dust 8y ago

It would have been a positive change if they did not have the restriction that the Masters must be from a US university. What's wrong with non-US universities? I don't see why degree even matters. Like someone suggested in a previous similar thread, just sorting by pay and giving higher wages more priority (perhaps with some sort of normalization to compensate for cost of living and the field of work) is much better.

ones_and_zeros 8y ago
It's a step toward the "staple a green card" immigration policy supported by both republicans and democrats. It's essentially a reversal from the historical "tired, poor, huddled masses" policy of immigration in America to something that is more in line with the rest of the neoliberal world.
gedy 8y ago
A handout to university tuitions and desperate researchers.
- raz32dust 8y ago
  The cynic in me believes this is the real reason. Use foreign students to fund US universities in the name of immigration.
sct202 8y ago
It's a gamble to come to America to get educated (cost, cultural adjustment, visa issues), and I think that we should show preference to those students who have made that extra effort to live and study in America over other people.
- ones_and_zeros 8y ago
  Like over other people fleeing dangerous situations (that the US may or may not be exacerbating?), war? genocide? famine? Seems like the US had the moral high ground prioritizing the down and out, now just another country only accessible if you have $$.

quotemstr 8y ago

Goodhart's Law [1] applies to this situation. I expect master's degrees to become more common and less rigorous. The whole qualification and lottery immigration system is, at best, economically inefficient. Instead of bothering with salary bands and education requirements, the government should auction off work visas, thereby ensuring that slots go to their most economically productive use. A cap-and-trade system lets the market find its own level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

jdlyga 8y ago

My now wife went through so much trouble with her H1-B, even though she graduated with a Master's from a United States university and was working in the United States. Yet she got stuck in the lottery system. Don't we want high skilled workers contributing to the economy? Even when we got married, we had to wait over a year for her green card for her and went through an interview. The immigration system is tough and cumbersome.

BeetleB 8y ago
With the new system, she will have a better chance at getting the visa. Why the concern? Edit: I'm being down voted, but I don't understand. The change actually prioritizes MS students.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Why should anyone be happy when there's a chance they won't be allowed to work? Even if the chance is lower, it's still something to be concerned about. (Edited)
  - BeetleB 8y ago
    Note that I never suggested one should be happy. And I'm not sure what you're proposing. Let anyone who is in the US be allowed to work and just give them an automatic H-1 visa? Or do that for people who have an MS degree or higher? If the latter, realize you are providing a criterion - one which someone with just a high school degree can say the same as you said: >Even if the chance is lower, it's still not right. If you accept that there needs to be some criterion, then it's simply a matter of where the line is drawn - and most people draw the line that conveniently works for them. For the person who posted this, the change in rules improves the chances of someone in the situation his wife was in.
shard972 8y ago
Doesan't the country she came from also want her contributing to their economy?

djinnandtonic 8y ago

Paywalled.

freewizard 8y ago
https://www.axios.com/immigration-h-1b-dhs-foreign-workers-final-rule-bbd0a51e-c8c1-4ee1-a353-1dd689ba48e4.html https://www.axios.com/immigration-h-1b-dhs-foreign-workers-f...
dan_dev_this 8y ago
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-revamped-to-favor-workers-with-degrees-from-us-universities-2019-01-30 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-revamped...

sandeepvk 8y ago

now i can come to US too

sandeepvk 8y ago

now i can go to US too

joshe 8y ago

I've worked with a few H1-B holders in Silicon Valley and they're awesome. A great improvement would be to allow H1B holders to change jobs easily (maybe after a year). It's too easy for them to get stuck in not great situations. It would be great for everyone if they could move to better fitting jobs, especially for startups who have trouble running H1-B programs. If you are, like me, a software engineer, you should cheer every immigrant. They aren't competitors, they are complements and create more jobs. Economics is complicated and sometimes counterintuitive, but just because "immigrants lower wages" is "common knowledge" doesn't make it true. [1] To prime your intuition a bit, consider how woman and minorities more than doubled the work force from the 1960s to 1990s with no loss in jobs or lowering of wages. And if you are in SV consider that more than half of public tech companies were created by 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. 1st generation founders include Sergey Brin, Max Levchin, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Pierre Omidyar, Stewart Butterfield, Sebastion Thrun, and Patrick and John Collison. [2] [1] https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014/05/01/the-economics-of-immigration-a-story-of-substitutes-and-complements https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014... [2] https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-mary-meeker-immigration-tech-founders-jobs-slides-code-conference https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-ma...

ttul 8y ago
Stewart is still pretty Canadian... His primary residence is in Vancouver last I checked. I mean, the whole city would probably start crying if he permanently left.
ones_and_zeros 8y ago
A great improvement would be to give them citizenship if they want it. The economic impact of immigrants is not under debate, however your examples are poor choices as I don't think any of those people came to the US on an H1B visa. If anything it's an argument against H1B.
- joshe 8y ago
  Yep, totally where I was going with that. One H1-B guy I worked with did in fact become a founder of a small successful firm, but that was after he got a green card. I think we've lost out on a few billion dollar startups and awesome inventions by locking people to the H1-B job they got hired for.

1024core 8y ago

I don't think this will have that much of an impact (of course, it'll impact a good number of people). The highest impact would be if they allowed easy H1B transfer to other companies with similar jobs. Right now, H1B is pretty much like indentured servitude (it has become better in the past few years, and it was waaay worse at one time). The other change would be to give priority based on salary. That will encourage H1B employers to pay more; thus, attracting more USCs.

GreaterFool 8y ago

While I think allocating more visas to advanced degree holders is a good idea, why restrict it to US institutions? Weird.

jefftk 8y ago

Why don't we auction off H1B slots, either directly (government gets the money) or via the companies offering the highest comp getting to bring people in? You could also do some combination of the two.

tumidpandora 8y ago

As an immigrant myself, I welcome this move. Please note that this change impacts issuance of fresh H1Bs and does not relate to or assist/impact existing H1B holders in any way. Against common misconception, it's important to know that H1B also compete for an open job requisition like everyone else. Sadly, H1Bs are eligible to apply only for a small percentage of the open requisitions which often read - only W2 need apply (implying people with green cards / work authorizations or citizens) and sometimes explicitly as - 'accepting applications from green card holders and citizens only'. H1B are also mostly 'stuck' to their current jobs / positions and do not have the flexibility to switch jobs (until they reach a certain stage in their visa). They're allowed to switch but this requires the hiring org to reprocess their green card application from scratch in majority of the cases. This is especially true from people from India and China. It's one thing to say - you're allowed to switch, it another to be able to actually do it without getting penalized or expect your hiring org to invest into your green card process. I could go on but i'd sum this up as there's more to h1b than meets the eye and what's out there isn't a true and complete representation of an Indian or Chinese h1b worker. It's tough to be in the shoes of an H1B who's worked and lived here and made a life for his family, yet lives in fear and uncertainty of losing his job or work authorization everyday. Selection for a job should be based on merit and your personal / professional qualifications among other factors, and not with a bias towards your visa status. The best man for the job.

jarjar12 8y ago
They live in fear because most of them are garbage. They produce garbage and make others lives miserable. And the ones that actually worked hard can’t afford to even get a job because h1bs take such a low pay
- untog 8y ago
  There are bad developers. There are bad developers on H1B visas. There are good developers. There are good developers on H1B visas. If your company hired a shitty developer then you should be blaming you company's hiring practises, not the immigration status of the developer.

fourier_mode 8y ago

Although it can be good for people from a personal point of view. However, the Trump administration is trying to create a state of elitists. This administration has time and again tried to establish this. I am not a big fan of this idea. I would rather prefer more applicants entering through the lottery system, and maybe a bit more preference for the struggling nations, or those who have been hit due to US' global politics.

Tycho 8y ago

Fun thought experiment is to think what would happen if you told ____s to replace ____s. What would happen if you took programmers and told them to fill the roles of teachers? What would happen if you took teachers and told them to replace programmers? What would happen if you took policemen and told them to manage portfolios? What would happen if you took nurses and told them to replace lawyers? In some cases, everything would grind to a halt. In others, things would rattle on but perhaps in a suboptimal manner. I suppose there's a few variables like training time, and whether a job has some sort of 'coasting' option, eg. portfolio managers could just buy the index and come out OK.

tr33house 8y ago

Unfortunately, the more school == more skilled proxy doesn't always works and often fails in tech where informal experience matters

picacho 8y ago
more school != more skilled proxy should have it's range. A rank 100+ cs grad school is quite obvious showing a person's learning skill if anyone knows how applying for a cs master in the USA works. One could argue a UCSC graduate doesn't have a good skill set but hardly to say a SIT graduate has a better learning skill. And a SIT graduate is also a 'master' of science in cs, which is able to participate the 'advance' degree h1b lottery slot. How absurd..

jarjar12 8y ago

Haha. So silly. Now all these folks have to do is bribe colleges in India to give them fake transcripts and diplomas. Half of the h1bs from India already have fake masters or at best masters from low graded crap colleges. The Indian consulting firms throw so many shitty developers at us and it sucks because we drown in resumes and no choice because my company won’t go higher on rates so we can’t afford good developers. These h1bs are as good as entry level sophomores in US colleges.

villgax 8y ago
The preference IMO is for Advanced degrees granted by US institutions & is the same basis as was before, instead now just the priority for filling up the pool is for masters degree holders first.

chrisper 8y ago

It's kind of weird that work experience can't replace the master degree in this case.

jorblumesea 8y ago

Why do we care about a masters degree from some India degree farm? It seems like the emphasis on accreditation misses the point entirely. There's no quality control in the US immigration process. For every brilliant engineer we get someone garbage. For every innovator or entrepreneur we get someone who is just the mother's uncle's in-law.

thewhitetulip 8y ago
Contrary to the rhetoric, unless you are buying your degree from shitty colleges which exist on paper, it's very difficult to get bachelor's and master's degree in India. I'm an Indian and I know that because the entrance exams are tough. But yes, emphasis on masters degree missed the point.

jl2718 8y ago

Education level seems really arbitrary and exploitable. Maybe auction work visas for income tax bonds. Pay interest so that new grads can bid for them through lenders.

anticensor 8y ago
That would be even more exploitable and cause an uncontrollable immigration policy. You would get vast numbers of Muslim extremist immigrants who would refuse to adapt and wreak havoc, like Syrian refuge crisis in Turkey.

peferron 8y ago

H-4 holders (spouses of H-1B, for the uninitiated) should be allowed to work. That they don't is inhuman and de facto hurts women, since the overwhelming majority of H-1B holders (at least in the Valley) are men. It's forcing women into a stay-at-home role as if it were the 50s. It's especially hard for H-4s because they are newcomers to the USA who may not have local friends or family. My wife went through it for a while and it's incredibly isolating.

baby 8y ago
I know a bunch of people on H-4, it's really really sad :/
dudus 8y ago
That's a great point. Specially because L-2 holders can work. I never understood why it was different for H-4
keegancsmith 8y ago
I was an h1b holder working in Silicon Valley. My wife not being able to work was the main reason why we left after 2 years. Kind of silly to go through that whole song and dance of getting a skilled person to move across the world only to treat the spouse as if the only purpose they have is home keeping.
- digianarchist 8y ago
  Same with the TN visa. Spouses of Australian citizens can work though on the E3 visa.
makeset 8y ago
Same thing with F-2 holders (spouses of F-1 student visas). In contrast, J-2 holders (spouses of J-1 exchange students) are allowed to work.
mavelikara 8y ago
It is unfortunate that the feminist movement in SV, who are very vocal about the plight of women in the tech workforce, have been silent about the current administration's attempts to revoke H4-EAD.

picacho 8y ago

define high-skilled workers. Currently an steven's institute graduate cs master could get a h1b visa by lottery while a Harvard graduate might not be that lucky. Consider this, is knowing how to use kubernetes anything harder than working in a Physics Lab? The system is flawed~~

alkibiades 8y ago

so more privileged/rich chinese and indians and less anyone else? (including american workers?) (watch anything not pro-immigration be downvoted to hell)

simplecomplex 8y ago

This is a sad day for the USA, as we move further from the principles that made us great. This is discrimination, and nothing to celebrate. People without degrees deserve equal treatment. People who want to work lower-paid jobs deserve equal treatment. America should stand for liberty, personal responsibility, and equality of opportunity. Not racism and elitism. Our immigration laws continue to be a stain on this great nation.

blocked_again 8y ago

I opened the article with so many expectations. Then realized it changes nothing. How does having enough money to get a masters from US make one high skilled developer? The only people who are going to benefit from this are the American Universities.

vilifiedtwin 8y ago
Exactly that. I know so many people with masters degree that cannot code at all. They only learned how to pass exams but have no ability to solve problems on their own. I would argue that talented people would rather avoid a place where they cannot learn anything useful and universities more and more become just that. My view is that the US shoots themselves in a foot and that is good for other countries.

sbmthakur 8y ago

Couldn't read this due to the Subscription/Sign-in wall. May I know how does this affect Masters(Computer Science) students in the US. I've got few friends studying there now.

rajacombinator 8y ago

H1B is indentured servitude, that’s why corporate America loves it. This measure will do nothing but increase masters mill programs, punishing both smart immigrants and Americans. Basically, another brutal, but expected, betrayal of campaign promises by the hapless Trump administration.

thewhitetulip 8y ago

Can someone tell me this, if H1B visas were stopped then what will happen? Won't all these companies just set up operations in India/China? Or will they expand in US itself?

Zombiethrowaway 8y ago

"master’s or higher degree from a U.S. institution" This puts at a competitive disadvantage international universities over US ones, regardless of education performance. It sounds like protectionism, which will translate into more foreign students applying for US universities, driving education costs even higher. You will now definitely buy a degree/name, not so much an education. Sad.

raquo 8y ago
"accomplished a degree in a host country and obtained a relevant job offer thereafter" is a very good proxy for a lot of desirable properties in immigrants, at least in Canada (per official statistics). Besides, foreign education credentials and work experience can be very easy to fake depending on home country, so it's understandable that it's worth less in the eyes of immigration systems. In Canada we have lots of foreign students, and while there are some issues (nothing is perfect), they pay much more than domestic students, essentially funding the higher education institutions. Education is some of the best things you can export, if done properly.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  Thing is, if you want to hire foreign, experienced, high-skilled workers, by definition they won't hold a US degree. The current system favors immigrants that can afford a Master's degree at low-tier for-profit universities (see what happened to the Silicon Valley University). The change will take this even further. Canada has a non-trivial but straightforward path to permanent residency that tries to be fair to both domestic students and experienced immigrants. It's not really comparable.

sathishvj 8y ago

What happens if somebody has taken a remote master's course from a US university? Is there a note on that? p.s. it does not apply to me anyways, but just want to know.

abhij89 8y ago

for non-subscribed users: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-in-h-1b-lottery-order-first-priority-to-us-degree-holders/articleshow/67764048.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-in-h-1...

known 8y ago

H1B = Organised mafia

4ad 8y ago

I have extensive experience working in the industry for the past 13 years, but I don't even have a bachelor's degree. Am I screwed?

self_awareness 8y ago

Non-paywall URL: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-effect-april-1-changing-tech-companies-hire-foreign-born-talent/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-effec... Not the same article but seems like it's the same subject.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

DrAwdeOccarim 8y ago

I see a lot of people complain that H1B is used to import cheap tech workers. In biotech, I haven't seem this as a problem. In fact, I just sponsored a few of my employees to get H1Bs and it worked out fine. This seems like a solution from the tech side of things, but in the biotech side of things I don't think this was a problem because everyone was already high-skilled?

dalbasal 8y ago

Honestly, I have a hard time with the norms around "worker visas," internationally including the US. I can't understand the liberal (both right and left) preferance for something that seems (to me) at odds with freedom (as in speech). On one end of the spectrum we have thingslike middle east guest workers, almost an indentured service arrangment. On the other end, we have SV tech workers and similar elswhere. What protects the higher earning workers is their higher earnings, which gives them more options and leverage. Regardless most are bound to an employer, one way or another. They inarguably have much less freedom. They can't make the same choices (eg. work part time, career break). Other choices require bureaucratic approval (change job, start a business, go to uni). If citizens were subjected to these sorts of restrictions, it would be considered a liberal travesty. Since when is liberty subject to citizenship? To be clear, I'm not against skilled migration. In practice, i think there would be almost no negatives to allowing skilled migrants (same criteria) their freedom.

cylinder 8y ago
I'm an immigration lawyer and completely opposed to employer sponsored temporary visas. Either let someone in independently or don't let them in at all. The power it gives the employer is ridiculous.
masklinn 8y ago
> Since when is liberty subject to citizenship? Since citizenship has existed, meaning pretty much when the first legal systems arose? Providing different sets of rights and duties is the entire point of separating citizens and non-citizens. Hell, the greek polis were mostly about duties, the rights were mostly implicit and incident to being active in running the the community's affairs.
- dalbasal 8y ago
  I'm speaking within the context of liberalism, as a set of ideals.
CalRobert 8y ago
I think this is one of the unintended consequences of strong welfare states. If your government spends $xx,xxx per resident per year then someone who arrives and doesn't contribute at least $xx,xxx is a net drain on resources. At the VERY least, you need to ensure your population produces at least $xx,xxx per year in gov't revenue. While I am strongly in support of things like free healthcare, education, etc. I can also see how adding residents who aren't net contributors threatens those systems. If Canada let any 60 year old American with health problems immigrae regardless of their ability to help pay for the health system it would reduce care for existing Canadian residents. After all, they're almost certainly going to cost more over their life than they kick in via tax. Of course, the same argument can go dark places, like forcing people to get exit visas to leave. After all, the state put a lot of money in to your upbringing, you owe them! Current visa regimes work pretty well to encourage this sort of behaviour. Young, educated people with lots of promise who will work hard (thus the tie to employment) or old people with millions can move. Others, well, can't. Barring that, sometimes less-educated people can move but in ways that try to ensure they don't become a burden (you work here for a set time and then you're kicked out) I sometimes wonder if the current system of heavy indebtedness for school and housing helps ensure people work as hard as possible and pay as much in taxes as possible as opposed to allowing them more leisure. Without having to cover a mortgage or health insurance, how many people would work part time? Or how many couples would have a stay at home parent? There were fewer formal barriers to moving not that long ago. The US had pretty much unrestricted immigration in the 19th century, but it also spent very little per resident. Passport restrictions in Europe showed up for WWI (well, briefly for Napoleon too IIRC) and never really left, probably because WWI also roughly coincided with cheap international travel.

dschn_dstryr 8y ago

HN should make a rule against articles behind paywalls.

wufufufu 8y ago

My parents are immigrants. I wish we would just let in a random sample of the global population instead of having selection factors. Or maybe not let in any immigrants at all. The purpose of these kinds of requirements is to bring in workers for rich American CEOs. It's not because we enjoy the company of immigrants or want to learn their culture. Artificial selection for master degrees just creates stereotypes and leads to things like "the model minority". Imagine if we only let in strong physical laborers and the type of stereotypes and race dynamics that would create. The kind of cultural displacement you feel as an immigrant that is toiling away in a lab to try to serve some rich CEO while you're away from all your like-minded friends/family is depressing. I haven't read literature on this, it's just my gut feeling.

digianarchist 8y ago
That's what the DV lottery is with the exception of they exclude countries that have a high number of people already immigrating to the United States.

seshagiric 8y ago

It's actually a good move: a. Trump can now say he 'fixed' the h1-b system :) b. Due to all the visa restrictions talks, US universities were seeing drop in foreign MS students, that will likely get fixed.

winter_blue 8y ago

The sheer and staggering amount of hatred for immigrants in here is appalling. If people had the same hatred for immigrants a 100 years, most of the ancestors of the balls of hatred on this thread would have been excluded. The skilled immigrant limit is a joke -- approximately 0.02% of the population. Also, incredibly hard: https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-system-broken https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-system-bro...

OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago

intentionally lacking a certain keyword

notyourloops 8y ago

He campaigned on the opposite, didn't he?

nojvek 8y ago
Probably not the popular opinion here but the way I see trump is he was campaigning hard against “illegal immigration”. He didn’t explicitly say he’s against highly skilled immigration. Trump may be an idiot but it seems people incharge of immigration have their head straight and H1Bs are in sore need of a revamp. I hope the trend continues. America works because hard working and talented people want to come here and make beautiful things people want and build their dreams.
- notyourloops 8y ago
  I thought I remember it being a campaign position, mainly stemming from it applying downward wage pressure on tech workers. It looks like it used to be but then he changed it. > Donald Trump signaled a shift in his stance on visas for highly-skilled workers Thursday night, moving away from the position he took on his campaign website. Source: https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/trump-immigration-h1b-visas-gop-debate-220233 https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates... Looks like he's flip-flopped a few times.

brookhaven_dude 8y ago

They lost an opportunity to really overhaul the system that would have drawn support from liberal groups. Like turning H1B allocation process into an auction - let the company that offers highest compensation win the visa. And associating the visa with the employee not the employer, so they are free to switch around.

smg 8y ago

The most important thing that needs to be changed about the H1B program is how the green card is linked to your particular employer. The H1B program is almost like indentured servitude for the vast majority of workers of Indian or Chinese origin because of the delay in getting a green card. It would be impossible for any employer to exploit H1B workers if the visa was not linked to an employer but to the tax paid by the worker. As long as the worker stays in a particular (federal) tax bracket the worker should be allowed to engage in any work that they desired.

calvinbhai 8y ago

As an immigrant from India, who worked in the US on H1B, I welcome this change, because this increases the chances of weeding out the bad apples and increases the chances for the good ones to get an H1b visa. This at least encourages genuine direct employers to hire those who have already contributed to the US economy (by paying out of state tuition which funds/subsidizes the university education of US resident/citizen students) With this rule change, it certainly is better than what it was earlier. How could this be made even better? Make it such that those who studied in the US are not in the lottery. Meaning, give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US, and lottery with the remaining visas to those who didn't study in the US. That way, the downward trend of international student admissions will reduce, and help the universities and all the students.

bonestamp2 8y ago
> give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US Agreed. I studied in the US, wasn't even applying for jobs and had job offers. But, I didn't have work authorization so I couldn't take them. I went back to Canada for years before I was able to get back again. I'm not mad, but the system could definitely be improved for those who are qualified. If we're going to compete with China, Russia, India, etc we have to do everything to attract and keep the best minds here.
- calvinbhai 8y ago
  True. I'm not mad with US immigration issues either. It's more like I feel sad for the country, which has such potential, and they are missing out on having high skilled immigrants live and pay taxes in the US. Since I'm fed up with US permanent residency process (as an India born person, there's no point in applying), I'm working remote from outside US, as a contractor with a US company and paying Canada taxes (I almost bought a house in the US, before I decided to get a Canada PR. US's loss, Canada's gain).
hart_russell 8y ago
I would agree with the caveat that it has to be a master's or phd. There would be way too many graduates with bachelor's.

redditmigrant 8y ago

The discussion here is reflective of the problem that plagues immigration law. Any change to immigration system is not looked at through an incrementality lens, but through the lens of the overall system and its problems. This change makes it more likely for graduates of US universities to get H1B visas, yet the discussion is on the overall merit of H1Bs. Exact same thing happens with solving the problem of country based caps on green cards which disadvantages people based on an attribute that they have no control over - their country of birth. Any change proposed to country based caps is looked at with whether the overall high skilled immigration system is good or not. Its like no one wants to fix any bugs and people are only interested in a complete system rewrite. So every bug report and code review becomes a discussion platform for the problems of the overall system.

picacho 8y ago

if you have 13 years experience and don't even have a bachelor's degree, you are not screwed, just stay where you are, unless you are as good as Linus T, just stay where you are, we have lots of talents with > 13years experience without a degree here in the US already :-)

true_tuna 8y ago

Does anyone actually read the WSJ links that get posted here? It’s subscription only so linking from here only works if you already subscribe, at which point you’re not linking from hacker news...

known 8y ago

95% people prefer to quit India due to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo... and https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answer/Adarsh-Sapoota https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answer/Ad...