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On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score
- hiei 8y agoAt least for my phone provider, you can hit 0 about 6-7 times after the automated responses and be directly sent to a live agent.
- tyingq 8y agoIf it's a voice response unit words like "agent", "operator", "person", and "help" often are recognized similarly.
- ergothus 8y agoBut for both of these, "directly" often means being on hold.
- notyourday 8y agoPrefix it with the famous f word and become the next call answered.
- dawnerd 8y agoTwitter too in some ways. Publicly say something negative about the company and if they have a reasonable support team you'll be helped instantly. Tmobile is really good about this, as is Delta and Chase. Also surprisingly enough got some good support from California DMV over twitter. Who would have guessed!
- anitil 8y agoIn a recent hellointernet episode, they talked about how companies have essentially trained them to do just that. If you have enough public clout it seems to be the easiest way to get a response.
- tyingq 8y agoOnce you get a real person, the word "chargeback" also can sometimes get them onto a different track.
- Scoundreller 8y agoJust call the “collect” number on the back of the card. When they think they’re paying $4/minute for the call, they route you prettt quick to someone experienced.
- anitil 8y agoI once said 'freedom of information' on a call with my bank, and magically all the insurmountable problems went away and I got a call back (a real call back!) within minutes.
- justin66 8y agoSimply stating that you are considering contacting your attorney will ring the same alarm bell a little more reliably. A bank employee might not know - but should know - that literally nothing the bank handles is subject to FOIA, but they're trained to treat a threat of litigation seriously.
- anitil 8y agoYeah the funny thing is I was actually idly talking to myself while the person was busy typing something - 'Does FOI work with private organisations? Oh no of course not' then all hell broke loose on the other end.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoI did that once, and it worked, but I was greeted by an agent angrily saying "Sir, please calm down!" It was weird. I wonder if the same system was triggered by people yelling at the phone tree.
- mszcz 8y agoI use another method. I select all the options in the automated system that indicate that I want to buy stuff from them. Suddenly I get connected to a live person almost immediately ;)
- cortesoft 8y agoBut then when you ask for help they transfer you back to hold...
- ceejayoz 8y agoSometimes, but I've found it's generally more accurate than trying to figure out the phone tree. Every time I've called my bank about a mortgage issue none of the phone tree options describe my issue at all; a customer service rep usually knows who to send me to.
- Scoundreller 8y agoSometimes “sales” can’t transfer calls internationally and routes you to the domestic support.
- mszcz 8y agoTrue, _sometimes_ they can't.
- Scoundreller 8y agoThe “Canadian” method is to know enough French to get through the French menus to get to a real person. They’re almost always bilingual and based in Canada (often New Brunswick, which is the most bilingual place in Canada anyway).
- foobarbazetc 8y agoIn the US you call the Spanish line. Same thing.
- notyourday 8y agoAnecdata: The more advanced systems monitor for customer irritation while the customer is "on hold". It is quite possible to skip the line by fitting the profile of a really irate customer. While saying "agent" would put one into a standard queue, saying "<f-word> agent" does magic on some Verizon, ATT, Comcast and Optimum CS or billing numbers.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoI look forward to the day that this trick is so ubiquitous it loses all value, and the companies lose all ability to manage people via queue, and have to come up with a system that possibly involves people communicating with people in a timely fashion.
- DonHopkins 8y agoThe Uber customer service line just transferred me to Uber Escorts.
- notyourday 8y agoUber has a CS line?!
- 52-6F-62 8y agoWhen I was in AV sales we had to phone credit card companies often to help the customer seek approval for a steep purchase, etc. We would do similar— mashing the 0, *, and # keys intensely would usually trigger an operator call rather than sitting on the phone tree.
- grahamburger 8y agoHonest question: does this actually help you get what you're after faster? I've never been a call center agent, but I've worked closely enough with call centers to know that they are often divided up in to different skill sets. Even if the automated responses won't get you what you need (modern ones can do quite a lot!) and you really need to talk to a person, you still have to talk to the right person. (Or the right group, anyway.) My impression is if you mash '0' until someone picks they will just end up transferring you to the right group to handle your query and you might end up waiting longer overall.
- goostavos 8y ago>Even if the automated responses won't get you what you need I honestly hate that this is a thing at all. If I'm calling customer service, it's because I've exhausted every other option _other than calling customer service_. I'm not here to have fun, I've got a problem than I unfortunately need a human to solve. Sitting through several minutes of "helpful" suggestions, options, and tips completely unrelated to why I am calling only heightens the annoyance of needing to call in the first place.
- tomjen3 8y agoYou and me, but that is not the case for a lot of people.
- newsbinator 8y agoI feel the same way as you, but the HN crowd is different in this sense from ordinary people. Our first resort is a search engine and a FAQ page, and possibly making a forum post. For many people, their first and only resort is to ask a person on the phone, no matter how factual or trivial the question is.
- CaptSpify 8y ago> Honest question: does this actually help you get what you're after faster? For me, yes! Absolutely! Having worked in a call-center before, there is a large amount of undeserved trust in their routing. I'm usually going to be transferred two or three times if I follow the phone-tree or not, skipping the phone tree just lowers my latency to those transfers.
- parliament32 8y agohttps://outline.com/yKpH2L https://outline.com/yKpH2L
- azinman2 8y ago“Not all customers deserve a company’s best efforts,” says Peter Fader, a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School who helped popularize lifetime value scores. I feel like this is a succinct argument against the idea to privitize everything — there’s no accountability nor notion of “fairness” baked in whatsoever.
- DiffEq 8y agoAre you implying that government, local or national, is "accountable" or "fair" somehow? All of human experience demonstrates the opposite.
- gumby 8y ago> All of human experience demonstrates the opposite. That's an absurd exaggeration.
- DiffEq 8y agoEqual to OP's absurd argument for less privatization.
- lostmyoldone 8y agoNot all human experience. There are certainly countries where government is considered to be - on average - rather fair.
- bjelkeman-again 8y agoMost (all?) Northern European countries strive hard to achieve that fairness and are reasonably successful in doing so.
- mfringel 8y agoCan you restate your assertion in a way that can not be trivially torpedoed by a single existence proof?
- soneil 8y agoHow's this a secret? I used to work in retail/service. Not something with data and metrics, just a mom'n'pop. But we knew our customers. We especially knew our regulars. And you did try not to piss off a regular. But from this I learnt that people will try to play their 'value' as a trump card when they want to complain. Do you know who I am, do you know how much I spend here, I come here every day, blah blah blah. They are very quick to make sure you know this isn't about a $4 coffee, this is about keeping them & their business. This isn't a secret, It's just an answer. Yes, they do know who you are. Surprise!
- swarnie_ 8y agoI get what you're saying but this seems to miss the point of the article. In your service job did you serve each customer in the approximate order they arrived? I'm almost certain you would have to the best of your ability. The article points to a system which all seem to think is first come first serve but actually inst.
- ceejayoz 8y agoVarying the order and varying the effort are both attempts to do the same underlying thing - retain good customers and waste less times on the bad ones.
- function_seven 8y agoSeveral years ago I used to frequent a sandwich shop about twice a week for lunch. It was literally a mom 'n' pop. The wife worked the counter and dining area, the husband made the sandwiches. After a few months (and me ordering the same damn thing every time) it got to the point that I'd walk in and—if there was a long line—one of the owners would just point me to an empty booth. It was awesome.
- heavymark 8y agoI believe the title means your score is secret not the idea of the common practice of rating a customer’s lifetime value.
- 8y ago
- LiterallyDoge 8y agoThis is a great argument for the intangible value of the right to individual privacy.
- LanceH 8y agoYou have every right to individual privacy. Once you yield it you don't have a right to make other people pretend they don't remember you.
- jimmaswell 8y agoUnless you live in the EU apparently. Not that I think it's right.
- matthewmacleod 8y agoI'd say there's a qualitative difference between "a company you dealt with remembers you" and "a company you dealt with for some unrelated matter will now proceed to send a representative to follow you around permanently, reporting back on everything you do, so that they can build a hidden profile about you." That's the equivalent of what's happening on the web at the moment.
- duxup 8y agoI worked in different call center environments, things may have changed but hold time really was more a matter of dumb luck and incompetent call routing systems more than anything else. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't necessarily read a difference in response as some sort of panned customer score or system necessarily. Incompetence reigns supreme when it comes to call centers, even when someone tries to institute a system. I can't tell you how many times they tried to prioritize some things or people and the result was those things or customers actually waited longer...
- amingilani 8y agoOh boy, can I vouch for this! And sometimes, during outreach, we'd call customers and their spouses would pick up and say something like "My husband/wife is out of town for a week/month" but the CRM had only one button "unavailable". They got calls like that every day or two until the customer came back home. Also, this is getting OT, but since my country's native language isn't English, I'd call customers who were out of town, and their wives would thank me for not butchering their names. Apparently, my colleagues would mess up non-stereotypical names. Calisle would become "Carlizzle", Jose would become "Joez", "Lucian" would be "Lucky-un", etc. In general, most off-shore support and telemarketing rigs, not the best technology out there.
- monochromatic 8y agoI wish there were a rule against posting paywalled content here.
- shittyadmin 8y agoYeah - reality is even if I think there's quality journalism worth paying for, subscriptions to those sources often cost $10/mo+, odds are I'm not going to pay for all of them, I'm especially not going to pay for it when it's an article I'm tangentially interested in. Yet participation in some interesting discussions often hinges on it. So here I am, pirating more and more of my news... you'd think someone would have managed to fix this by now. If the record labels and movie studios could pull it off, I'd almost think it'd be easier for news people to do so as getting news for free has long been an expectation on the internet.
- eisa01 8y agoYou can read WSJ articles for 49 cents at Blendle, no need to bypass with Outline: https://blendle.com/i/wsj-com/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-might-be-your-secret-customer-score/bnl-wsj-20181101-SB10356030888037374631904584524242419670598 https://blendle.com/i/wsj-com/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-migh...
- shittyadmin 8y agoYikes, that gives me some major sticker shock. I like where they're going, seems like they've got a lot of papers signed up which is great, but I was hoping for more of a subscription model which would allow me to read as I please rather than spending on a per-article basis. I'd have to be deeply interested in the content to pay that price. The way the movie and music industries largely beat piracy was by getting good subscription models - I'm hoping we'll see the same here too.
- eisa01 8y agoIf you don't think the article is worth it, you can get a refund with one click at least. NY Times articles are 19 cents. Yes, a subscription model would be useful. Blendle has that in the Netherlands to my knowledge.
- crb002 8y agoThat is an ADA lawsuit waiting to happen.
- everybodyknows 8y agoFollowing up on this thought, are health insurers already using such techniques to drive out unprofitable customers -- despite government regulations that they require coverage? California stats suggest "yes", and for about 4 years now: https://wpso.dmhc.ca.gov/dashboard/ComplaintsIMRs.aspx https://wpso.dmhc.ca.gov/dashboard/ComplaintsIMRs.aspx
- housingpost 8y agoNot only that, but a racial discrimination lawsuit. If someone can prove that one of the protected classes is getting worse service, it might make for a nice class-action. I’d love to see Zeta Global (among others) lose a few million for perpetrating this nonsense.
- cabaalis 8y agoI don't see what the big deal is? Unless your contract with a another group of individuals says that group will serve you within X amount of time when calling with a problem, you're SOL. Lots of talk on here about government and rights and other stuff when it's just that you're paying for a service, and you're either served or you're not. Take your money elsewhere. Oh, they're a monopoly? Think of how to improve and disrupt. I'm sure there used to be horsedrawn carriage monopolies also.
- kenneth 8y agoThe most obvious example of this in daily life is through airlines, where the difference is pretty transparent and you get night-and-day better service by being a loyal customer. With top status with AA and UA (EXP and 1K), you connected to U.S.-based very senior phone agents right away, who always make sure to take care of any issue that arises. 50min delay on your AA flight? No problem, sir, we are rebooking you on Alaska so you don't miss your dinner meeting. (Real example from last weekend) Customers are put in different levels in the loyalty program, with the top level getting to pre-board the flight, getting free upgrades to any empty seat in business, getting many other extra perks that make flying a joy. You get a smile, a thank you, and a free drink when flying in the back. Within a status level, customers are oftentimes ranked by how much revenue they bring to the airline. (On AA, upgrades are ordered by Elite Qualifying Dollars the flyer has spent in the prior year) Contrast that with the experience the vast majority of people have flying the very same airlines: say the words United Airlines to your average flyer and it brings back memories of Dr. Dao, of cramped seats in the back middle row, of not being able to bring a carry-on because they're in basic economy, of having to gate-check your bags, etc. At the end of the day, frequent flyers bring the vast majority of profits to airlines, so it makes sense to focus all efforts on catering to them vs. the average person. The cheap seats have very low margins, oftentimes negative… so it just infeasible economically to give everyone good service.
- skybrian 8y agoI wonder about this. If they're giving you that level of service, aren't you paying too much? Who really wins here?
- Scoundreller 8y agoFrequent flyers are usually not footing the bill themselves. Giving them frequent flyer points or free lounge access is like a tax-free bonus to the employee and incentivizes them to convince their employer to not switch airlines.
- kenneth 8y agoThe programs are full of loopholes. So yes, business flyers paying on company dime are footing the bill, but the clever travel hacker can often get a great deal in the process.
- cutchin 8y agoThe methods might be a bit more sophisticated now, but this has been going on for many years now. A single call center may take calls for hundreds of consumer retail products, but if you call the 800 number for your high annual fee, high-balance card, you will absolutely be higher in priority than people who called about their pre-paid starter credit card. Asking for an operator won't change that. More recently, the last 15-20 years or so, it became much more common for a "data dip" to happen when you call, or when data is provided, so the system can look you up and make intelligent routing decisions. If you've called before with a particular phone number, there's a decent chance the system already knows who you are and will prioritize you accordingly unless you provide account numbers suggesting otherwise. Call centers (whether in-house or farmed out) are high-volume, low-margin enterprises. Everyone is frustrated dealing with them, and they prioritize reducing that frustration for high-value customers. It's definitely unfair at times (an errant $500 charge that would be trivial for someone rich could be devastating for someone poor, but the rich person's call will be taken first) but that's just how the business is.
- vxNsr 8y ago>Your call will be handled in the order it was received Seems you can now use this as a canary for companies using CLV. If you don't hear it you better be rich.
- mac-chaffee 8y agoI think I'd be more comfortable with customer scores if there's more "Access/Participation"[1]. Being able to see my scores, see how they're calculated, and dispute them would at least help with trust and preventing mistakes. [1]: "Access as defined in the Fair Information Practice Principles includes not only a consumer's ability to view the data collected, but also to verify and contest its accuracy. This access must be inexpensive and timely in order to be useful to the consumer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTC_fair_information_practice#Principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTC_fair_information_practice#...
- blakesterz 8y ago"Marital status is often factored in, with some companies assuming that singles are better customers, and others, the opposite. Age also is a common input, potentially penalizing older people because of their shorter projected lifespans." Odd paragraph... It seems like those things could go either way depending on the company. I'm sure we could all list companies that would bend over for old married people as much as young single people.
- YokoZar 8y agoThat's exactly what the line says though. Some companies assume singles are better customers, and others, the opposite.
- mattkrause 8y agoI think the point is that "assume" is a weird word: it is probably true, in a statistical sense, that married couples are more valuable to some companies, and less to others, and their models reflect that. No one is saying "eh, screw the single people/happy couples" and tweaking the scores in some ad hoc way.
- lgats 8y agohttps://www.fullwsj.com/articles/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-might-be-your-secret-customer-score-1541084656 https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-m...
- amysox 8y ago"shibboleet" https://xkcd.com/806/ https://xkcd.com/806/
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mehrdadn 8y ago> Zeta Global, whose clients include wireless carriers, generates scores using data points such as the number of times a customer has dialed a call center and whether that person has browsed a competitor’s website or searched certain keywords in the past few days. Wait, so this means I dial a number and they link my identity to my browser to tell whether I've browsed a competitor's website in the past few days? Is this really how far tracking has come?
- newnewpdro 8y agoDid you think they weren't going to leverage your phone number in other ways when you furnished it for "improved security"?
- mehrdadn 8y agoNo, but that doesn't imply they've also pulled off the above.
- astura 8y agoPersonal Capital does this. They require your cell phone number for 2FA, but they call you to try to sell you financial advisors (and they know how much money you have because you've links your accounts). I still use it though, it's valuable enough to me to put up with it.
- root_axis 8y agoIt's even crazier than that. The phone companies have data-sharing agreements with data-providers that (for a fee) sell your subscriber data through a phone number based API (this includes name, address and other information valuable to a sales funnel, KYC, or customer verification process). Check your wireless service EULA to see that you have agreed to this.
- codetrotter 8y agoTo make the best out of a bad situation, you could perhaps use this to your advantage in the following way: If you are about to call support for some reason, spend a couple of minutes browsing competitor sites first and then make the call. The queuing system should then prioritize your call because they think you are considering leaving them for someone else.
- ggm 8y agoSerious question: google has no helpdesk at the consumer level and a very fractured one in corporate space. (I have GPC. AdWords and some other relationships for work aside from my personal google id so I do believe I know something of what I write, because I've seen at least two or three of the many sides of their product space beyond consumer ones) Does anyone believe they could run some kind of helpdesk at consumer scale FOR PROFIT?
- inetknght 8y agoYes absolutely. Why do you think there's so many tech support fraud? Why do you think Geek Squad is a thing?
- ggm 8y agoSo.. if there's a profitable business here, why isn't google running helpdesk over its consumer products? They monetise as good as the next hegemon, why not this?
- inetknght 8y agoThis is conjecture. I would imagine that providing support over the phone under the Google name or brand would have a high volume of people demanding free support because their products are already provided for free. Not providing free support could damage their reputation.
- gowld 8y agoThey do. If you want to pay for support for your free products, you can buy the Enterprise product. $5/person/month
- ddmd1 8y agoI've found the customer support for project fi to be fantastic. That's a consumer product.
- Godel_unicode 8y agoThey do, it's called Google One and it comes with Drive. """Experts, one tap away Get direct access to people who speak fluent Google. If you need help with our products and services, our team of experts is here for you. ""' https://one.google.com/about https://one.google.com/about
- anoncoward111 8y agoI work in customer service. We don't have scores but we have detailed notes on every past interaction. I don't keep anyone on hold long because I don't like dealing with people who get angry about that stuff, But, lots of my colleagues put people on hold out of spite.
- IshKebab 8y agoI find it hard to believe most call centres have sophisticated tracking systems when they can't even manage a basic "You are number X in the queue. The estimated wait time is X minutes." Or how about "If you would like us to call you back, press 1". I've had that from about 2 call centres in my life total (one was Google, can't remember the other). Fancy tracking linked to wait times? Please.
- BenjiWiebe 8y agoNewegg? They have the callback system, as well as estimated wait and # in line.
- vkou 8y agoAnd here I thought it was because every customer service line is experiencing a 'high volume of callers' 24/7.
- nobody271 8y agoHonestly, this sounds like a pretty practical feature. Just do some basic arithmetic on key variables to let customer service know how much of that all too prescious resource (effort) they have to spend on that call. I think the real problem is a lot more nuanced, though. For one, even tiny unsophisticated call centers implement painfully slow numeric menu navigation that always gives you that extra little kick in the nuts, "please listen carefully as our menu options have changed". Even if they haven't changed in a hundred, or even a thousand, years. They're an industry ripe for change because they haven't kept up with technology. To the contrary, customer support interactions have clearly become heavily scripted and dehumanizing. I can't imagine that industry having taken an uglier turn.
- mattkrause 8y agoI don't understand where everywhere does not have an option to call you back. If it's a toll-free number, they're paying for the call either way. It wouldn't require extra staff or even extra time per call (start the callback slightly before the agent is actually free). It would, however, be vastly nicer for the customer.
- fjsolwmv 8y agoBecause it's cheaper for the company if you just give up and get help elsewhere. They have barriers in place to impede your attempt to cancel your subscription
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoThis doesn't surprise me much. I probably lose a lot of points for only buying deeply discounted items. (I'm often happy to wait for a $36.99 Blu-ray set to hit $12.99 to buy it.)
- aviv 8y agoWe've implemented this for companies in the past - bumping callers to the front of the line based on the caller ID (or input of some other data by customer) and matching customer profile or CRM record tracking customer spend, MRC, etc. It's pretty standard practice.
- John_KZ 8y agoLast month I canceled my account application when I realized my new bank would not provide support to unathenticated users. By this I mean you really couldn't get hold of anyone without providing a credit card number. Which is not only invading privacy and creating customers castes, but it's also stupid since I didn't have a credit/debit card yet. After loudly swearing at the machine, either a quality control person or an emotion identification algorithm forwarded my call to a support worker. I simply hanged up and called the local branch, asking them to cancel my application. I'm not going to support this kind of businesses. However in the case of monopolies and oligopolies legislation is needed to assure retail customers are treated the same regardless of the race, age, postal code and spending figures unless there are clear terms dictating that higher spenders get better support (ie, providing better support as a paid service and/or having clear rules about prioritization).
- uptownfunk 8y agoI’m taking a probability models class at Wharton from Prof Fader (quoted in the article).. just have to say, it’s been an epic class, and it’s nice to see something like probability (and not the overhyped AI/ML) actually used for something so applicable in industry.
- tomrod 8y agoThus seems to ring true, that what you don't pay in price you often pay in time or comfort.
- pluma 8y ago"Silly Europeans. Regulations for privacy and data ownership are government overreach and anti-market. "Oh no."
- browsercoin 8y agoso when my bank put me on hold for 30 minutes, it means they think im a peasant?
- lotsofpulp 8y agoAll the big banks have a better level of service for higher net worth clients. BoA Platinum Honors, Chase Private Client, etc.
- throw2016 8y agoIt will be difficult for engineers to wash their hands off this level of surveillance, as they are building it. All the dissent is coming from other places, we have not had any protests, resignations or even leaks to warn the public about the level of surveillance underway. This betrays an indifference even support among engineers of invasive surveillance that others find abhorrent. There is a sharp contrast between the unequivocal indignation and outrage similar stories generate on other countries as a reflection of something greater while here they seem to dissipate into a factoid with no larger implications.
- 8bitsrule 8y agoHuh. WSJ site put me 'on hold' becuz I'm not a subscriber. This tactic seems a bit self-defeating in the end. Keep me on hold for over 15 minutes (never mind the music and mechanical apologies ... what a farce) and I guarantee you have lost a customer. (If I have any recourse, and I will assiduously seek one). Modern business attitudes that don't strive to welcome all customers are, IMO, on death row. Perhaps they're too big to succeed. (Hello? Sears?) OTOH, businesses that welcomed my trade (or that great rarity, welcomed me by name!) have enjoyed steady business for decades. No doubt the revolution will fix that.
- paulie_a 8y agoI've actually had success with simply emailing a company stating the issue and politely stating my frustrations with their phone menu. Always be polite with CSRs obviously as a decent human being. On a side note I wish the phrase "our menu options have recently changed" would go away. no they haven't, and no there is not a higher than normal call volume. Just firing off an email is worth attempting, one time I actually used the phrase "give me a holler" and got a call back the next morning. The problem was immediately taken care of. Button mashing used to work but now the systems aggressively hang up on you. And I have no idea why I am prompted to enter account details just to be asked for the same info, apparently the systems are capable of playing ads every 15 seconds, but can't transfer info.
- nraynaud 8y agoFunny I spent one and a half hour to open a bank account in person 2 days ago. Everything was freaking slow in the bank too.
- porlune 8y agoOne might argue that having such a list constitutes bad faith. 1) It's dishonest to not inform your customers that they are to be systematically treated differently based on a secretly kept score. 2) Such a score kept changes the relationship between parties after a contract has been established, thereby negating value of the contract. Given that good faith requires honesty, such a thing should be regarded as unethical. It would be like if Disneyland sold you a season pass for the same price as everyone else, but then made you wait in a longer line because someone during that process didn't like the tone of your voice.
- fjsolwmv 8y agoThere's no customer service contract.
- porlune 8y agoIn the case I was making there would be some form of contract. It's very unlikely that you've purchased anything recently that didn't have some kind of contract that went along with it (e.g. an implied warranty.) Think of this as purchasing a season pass from Disneyland, and then being forced to wait in a longer line for every ride because someone didn't like the tone of your voice at some point during that process. That would change the value of what you purchased, not disclosing that is dishonest, and, to me, a clear violation of good faith and fair dealing.
- xtiansimon 8y agoPaywalled article :(