57 ms·

Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker Store

1620 points by dhuramas 8y ago

bufferoverflow 8y ago
Linux: https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/ Win: https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/ Mac: https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/
- eabutfordocker 8y ago
  The intent is to provide users with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different download links.
  - throwaway917100 8y ago
    I see what you did there :)
  - teddyh 8y ago
    For those who don’t understand the reference: https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-posting-the-most-hated-1820391000 https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-posting-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- alpb 8y ago
  The issue in the post talks about "Docker for Mac" and "Docker for Windows" which is basically what Docker for Desktop is. The links you provided are just for the docker binary (which is, mac/windows they're just the docker client –not sure about what the linux binary contains). They're not the same thing.
  - teraflop 8y ago
    The Docker binary for Linux appears to also be behind a login wall, at least if you follow the most obvious navigation links. (Even then, it's not trivial to find, because the standard Linux version of Docker isn't mentioned at all in the "getting started" section of the site. You have to know that they apparently call it "Docker Engine" now.)
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      > the standard Linux version of Docker isn't mentioned at all in the "getting started" section of the site.
  - bufferoverflow 8y ago
    Is this the desktop? Win: https://get.docker.com/builds/Windows/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.zip https://get.docker.com/builds/Windows/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-... Linux: https://get.docker.com/builds/Linux/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.tgz https://get.docker.com/builds/Linux/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce... Mac: https://get.docker.com/builds/Darwin/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.tgz https://get.docker.com/builds/Darwin/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-c...
notyourwork 8y ago
Headlines false, I just did this a few days ago.
- TehCorwiz 8y ago
  Please take a look here: https://store.docker.com/editions/community/docker-ce-desktop-windows https://store.docker.com/editions/community/docker-ce-deskto... It does in fact ask the user to login before giving them a download link. The files themselves don't appear to behind a login-wall since people are posting them far and wide. But the website very much implies that you need to register.
  - brodsky 8y ago
    This is a link specifically from the Docker store. Download pages are also linked from multiple places in the documentation, binaries are installable via Docker's package repositories, and generally available far and wide. This is a misleading, sensationalist headline, i.e. clickbait.
    - Groxx 8y ago
      If you go to docker.com, click "get started", click "docker for mac", it sends you to exactly that URL. Sure, maybe there are side links they haven't changed, but this is a pretty clear login-wall.
- SkyPuncher 8y ago
  > I just did this a few days ago .....or....possibly....this change happened within the past few days?
  - minimaxir 8y ago
    The GitHub issue was filed 2 months ago.
  - notyourwork 8y ago
    It appears that it did change in last few days because I had a conversation with a teammate and remember asking about signing up for an account and he showed me how to download without. However, today I cannot find the same navigation path when trying so I think something changed.
philip1209 8y ago
https://get.docker.com https://get.docker.com
sgarg26 8y ago
Is Docker having trouble monetizing?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wmf 8y ago
  Always has been.
- chii 8y ago
  > monetizing i dont think anyone has every paid for docker. I guess the VC money is starting to run low.
Rauchg 8y ago
On macOS, I recommend: `brew cask install docker`
- jjeaff 8y ago
  on windows, I recommend `choco install docker.for.windows`
  - ulzeraj 8y ago
    Risking a derail how is chocolatey nowadays? I really liked the idea but stopped using it because most of the packets were way behind the current versions.
    - bacongobbler 8y ago
      Chocolatey is in the same space as the AUR (Arch User Repositories) in my opinion. It can be a hit or miss, but usually a hit. The support is fantastic when there's a bunch of users consuming the project as many users will contribute fixes to the package (e.g. packages for devs like node, cURL, git, etc). On the other hand, less popular packages will occasionally suffer from bitrot, though that all depends on the maintainer and whether or not the package has been configured to update automatically upon new releases. See also https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-process#package-is-outdated https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-process#package-i...
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      Anything popular is up to date. But many windows programs have their own update methods anyway. So in some cases, you install the older version, but then update when asked.
- ulzeraj 8y ago
  Mmm thats what I did. I had no idea downloading the DMG from the website required some kind of registration.
amaccuish 8y ago
I also can't delete my account myself after having created it. I believe the best way to operate is to make something as easy to delete as it was to create...
- edoceo 8y ago
  Maybe retention for legal reasons? But, yea.
- larkeith 8y ago
  Pretty sure that violates GDPR. Might want to email them about that.
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    Ye I only managed to find a "feedback" email address. If they're going to make you have an account, they could have thought about what if people want their account deleted...
    - bigiain 8y ago
      You have to look around a bit, but: "Customers may view, update or change their registration information by logging in to their accounts at www.docker.com. Requests to access, change, or delete your information will be handled within 30 days." "Questions regarding this Privacy Policy or the information practices of the Website should be directed to privacy@docker.com or by mailing Docker Privacy, 144 Townsend Street, San Francisco, CA 94107." https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-policy https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-policy
      - amaccuish 8y ago
        Cheers, lifesaver <3. I'll resend my email there. I will remember to look harder next time.
  - jimktrains2 8y ago
    Hackernews is worse as even if you email them they won't delete your account unless there is some issue actually causing you a problem.
threeseed 8y ago
Not sure what the issue is here. You can download Docker from many other sources without a login. And they are only putting the Docker Community Edition behind the email paywall as pretty much every open source/freemium company does these days.
fudoo 8y ago
I found the real problem with Docker to be that it downloads things from their repository. Just like Maven, it's a major pain point.
- knicholes 8y ago
  You'd be pleased to use docker-registry, then! We use Artifactory that runs its a docker-registry compatible something (maybe it's running docker-registry itself?) for our artifacts.
  - thiagocsf 8y ago
    The free version of Artifactory doesn’t support Docker registries. Nexus 3 OSS does.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- HelloNurse 8y ago
  What? I thought containment as an enabler for reproducibility was the whole point of containers.
- barrystaes 8y ago
  Its possible to run your own registry: docker run -d -p 5000:5000 --restart=always --name registry registry:2 From https://docs.docker.com/registry/deploying/ https://docs.docker.com/registry/deploying/ Or use the one in GitLab https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/container_registry.html https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/container_registry.h...
  - fudoo 8y ago
    Great, that's what I wanted from containers, more systems to run.
ghayes 8y ago
Can anyone post an experience using rkt [0]. I'd love an alternative to using Docker for containers, though I'm not sure how well a community has evolved around rkt. [0] https://github.com/rkt/rkt https://github.com/rkt/rkt
- edoceo 8y ago
  This comment made/makes me steer away https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912 https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912 There is another open issue claiming the project is dead (but maybe it's just stable) My whole team is onboard with docker, and we don't need account to install/use.
  - ori_b 8y ago
    Why do you believe that churn is a good thing, especially for a thin wrapper around Linux namespaces? There should not be much this is actually doing, so lots of commits would be worrying.
    - edoceo 8y ago
      I didn't say that that churn is a good thing. The github-issue and a sibling are folks asking this question. Why? Lingering bugs? Waiting for features? That the question is open is the concern. And again, compared to my existing tooling which is not having that question and has momentum. Evaluated against docker (a recent move for us) but didn't choose. We also looked a "roll your own" type solutions - required expertise our team didn't have.
  - shakna 8y ago
    Last commit 19 days ago. Code commits merged into master seem to be around every 3 months for the last couple years. That seems healthy to me. As for documentation, it seems to have monthly or bimonthly updates. The question in your issue is that their is a lack of activity... Came about three weeks after a commit, and two weeks before another. The issue just seems to be that rkt prefers their mailing list to GitHub issues, though they do pay attention to both. And I don't see a problem with that.
userbinator 8y ago
That's what throwaway accounts are for... and this, of course: http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com In any case, "to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward" is yet another example of the official-sounding-yet-bullshit, vague and meandering language that seems to permeate into everything these days. (Is there a specific term for it? "Business-speak" doesn't have enough of a negative connotation for the "We did it this way and you will like it. If you don't, fuck off." that they really want to say.)
- sfoblows2017 8y ago
  If you are too much of a douche to give a thowaway account for docker service, then they dont want you anyway. Your kind are not savvy, your kind are just douches that would shit on their own gma for a dollar.
- yalue 8y ago
  Probably the slightly better term here would be "weasel words". (Or better yet, "bullshit")
- jchw 8y ago
  FWIW, as far as I know, Docker for Windows and Docker for Mac really are closed source freeware. My honest opinion is we should move away from it. As for what to move to... That's definitely an open question. Docker for Windows is definitely one of the best developer experiences I've had on Windows because they put actual engineering work into it. All the same, I still found it buggier and less supported than Docker for Mac. At least on Windows, I wish we could combine the cool LXSS work with a development-only Docker implementation. Ultimately, Docker should not be synonymous with containers anyway. Future versions of Kubernetes will not use Docker and instead run their own containers on top of libcontainer by default, as I understand it. I also feel rkt has a much nicer design than Docker, doing away with the daemon aspect of it. Hoping to see more development in the future.
  - gshulegaard 8y ago
    If you want lightweight virtual machine functionality I would recommend LXD/LXC. If you want app virtualization and packaging, I have been pretty intrigued by what I have found out experimenting with `snaps`. The biggest issue for me that I have hit with LXD/LXC is that host-to-container mount sharing is not as easy...which means I had to do some workflow alteration for moving from `docker` containers to `lxd` ones for existing projects...but otherwise I have been really happy with LXD. Edit: And just to be clear, host-to-container mount sharing is possible, I just had to work at it and slightly alter my workflow to get the best solution.
kbumsik 8y ago
I wonder how requiring login to download helps a company in general? Docker says "improve experience for users" but is collecting download counts for each accounts important?
- mdavidn 8y ago
  Lead generation.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    It's always fun to give fake info to those sites that require it for that purpose. I've been using the white house phone number for 15 years.
  - rpeden 8y ago
    I think there's a good chance that's the answer. All they need to do is take every e-mail address that's not @ gmail/hotmail/outlook.com/other free providers, zip them through something like the Clearbit API to flesh out info about the person, and then forward promising prospects on to the sales team for some personal attention. I don't even mind companies doing this, as long as they're honest about why they're asking me to register.
- ben174 8y ago
  “Subscribe to our opt out mailing list so we can spam you until you unsubscribe”
- wmf 8y ago
  They will send you spam every two weeks reminding you of the goodness of Docker.
numbsafari 8y ago
The Oracle acquisition must be nigh... emulate the master to gain his approval you must!
- deadbunny 8y ago
  Hell even Oracle let you download the latest version without logging in.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bmc7505 8y ago
If you're frustrated with Docker's slow pace of development are are looking for a good alternative, have a look at Singularity containers. They're interoperable with Docker Hub and OCI compatible images, and offer a much better experience for HPC, machine learning and big data environments. Their GPU support is top notch. They don't run on as many platforms as Docker, but are aiming to grow into cross-platform. Sylabs is a small team in Austin, TX that does a lot of the development work, but they are quickly gaining adoption in academia. It's available on Cedar and Graham in Compute Canada (a large supercomputing cluster that serves most of Canada). We use Singularity on all our lab machines as it is much easier for IT admins to manage, and doesn't require sudo access. Their GPU support is top notch. https://www.sylabs.io/ https://www.sylabs.io/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- btown 8y ago
  Is there any overhead due to the virtualization layer, relative to bare metal? Scientific computing usually has much more stringent requirements for CPU/GPU performance than the average web startup. If the performance is good enough, containerization would be a great match for the domain, as you’re often shipping code to government-funded clusters you have little control over.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  Your repetition repetition of "their gpu support is top notch" reminded me of Florida man Marco Rubio in those 2015 presidential debates.
  - bmc7505 8y ago
    The topmost of notches. Very reproducible and user-friendly. https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-singularity-hpc/ https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-singularity...
- Arkanosis 8y ago
  It's important to mention that Singularity does not cover the same functional scope as Docker, and therefore isn't a good alternative for all use cases. It's much better for some, close to useless for others. To make it short: - huge pro: it relies on user rights and doesn't require root, so it's easier to trust for an admin, and to use for a non-admin; - huge con: it provides no isolation (it's not that it does a bad job at doing it: it doesn't even try, by design). There are probably many other differences, but that's what has stroke me the most. Don't get me wrong: I've only had positive feedback about it; it just isn't a one-to-one replacement for Docker.
mevile 8y ago
It's in Docker's interest to capture as much value as they can from their products, their calculus is changing. It's their decision to make, however passing it off as in the best interest of users is a bit of a whopper and not the best way to communicate it. I don't think entitlement to other people's work is the best response though.
- sjansen 8y ago
  While some people might be reacting based on simple entitlement, I suspect that for the majority this triggers a strong reaction because it is a warning sign. If Docker were a big company, it'd just be part of the normal drift toward customer abuse. Because Docker is still a relatively small company, it looks like a desperate attempt to stay afloat through increased monetization. The unintended side effect is that it makes me less inclined to purchase anything because I don't want to bet on a sinking ship.
- tannhaeuser 8y ago
  Docker is just a thin wrapper around Linux (API + namespaces). Dockerfiles frequently install a whole userspace (such as Alpine's or Debian's) as a base, to then add proprietary bits. Basically, Docker can be seen as GPL circumvention device. People aren't entitled so much as they're frustrated as they realize they've given too much control to some inessential piece of commercial software.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    In which way does using Docker circumvent the GPL? It's not like Docker images are opaque binary blobs, unless you count tar.gz as opaque.
    - tannhaeuser 8y ago
      Because a GNU userspace is "distributed" along with proprietary software?
      - 8y ago
djflutt3rshy 8y ago
Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this "We're improving user experience! Trust us!" pride-and-accomplishment nonsense that everyone keeps regurgitating. We're not preschoolers, the Internet can spot marketing slogans a mile away.
- ethbro 8y ago
  For reference and so people can be outraged without RTFA, here was the original close comment: -- joaofnfernandes (2 months ago) "I know that this can feel like a nuisance, but we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. As far as I can tell, the docs don't need changes, so I'll close this issue, but feel free to comment."
  - TylerE 8y ago
    Has there ever been a change to "improve user experience" that has _actually_ improved user experience? (Looking at you, Google.)
    - Deimorz 8y ago
      http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ "In our quest to improve the service for you, the user, we're making it worse. It was great before. It's going to be terrible now, but you're going to love the changes. We asked our investors and they said you're very excited about it being less good, which is great news for you."
    - travisjungroth 8y ago
      A ton! But they just don’t usually call it that. 90% of changes just make things better for the user. 10% make things worse, but they’re obvious and honest and we’re okay with it. And then 1% is the stuff like this. The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle. The EA “sense of pride and accomplishment”. The Netflix (wait, why are they here twice?) show recommendations that aren’t ads that’s happening right now.
zapita 8y ago
I understand the rationale for filing this issue, although I personally disagree with it... Docker for Mac is great freeware, and I don’t mind logging into Steam and Mac Store for my other apps, so I don’t have an issue with doing the same with Docker. But for someone who greatly cares about not having to give their email, I can see how it can be annoying to see the policy change after they started using the software... Either way... Holy shit is that github thread full of negativity and entitlement! Pretty shocking. Even if you’re unhappy with something, that’s no way to treat a team that is giving you a tool for free!
- threeseed 8y ago
  The more hilarious part is the reaction from here. You can't be a successful startup if you don't have a list of your product's users.
  - gameswithgo 8y ago
    >You can't be a successful startup if you don't have a list of your product's users. Id Software does not have a list of people who used Doom.
    - horsawlarway 8y ago
      Yes, they do. Literally. the first version required you to register by phone or mail in order to get the full game. If you mean the most recent version... they know exactly which commercial retailers purchased the game, and in what quantities. They might not know exactly which consumer ended up with those games, but those consumers were not their customers, the retailers were.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- kaishiro 8y ago
  While I agree there seems to be a significant amount of negativity on display, I'm not sure I'm shocked by it. The ticket response by joaofnfernandes is remarkably tone deaf and reads as fairly dishonest.
jeffbr13 8y ago
Docker Hub[1] is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR. Wording on the pop-up: > We and our advertising partners use cookies on this site and around the web to improve your website experience and provide you with personalised advertising from this site and other advertisers in AdRoll's network. By clicking "allow" or navigating this site, you accept the placement and use of these cookies for these purposes. It’s not a modal, but supposedly ignoring it opts you into the tracking, with the only choices being “Allow” or “Learn More” and the [x] button also being labelled “Allow”. IANAL, but it’s not informed individualised consent if there’s literally no opt-out, and there’s not a lawful basis unless advertising-cookies are suddenly the enabling technology behind downloadable containers. I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t think they were about to fold anyway, after their piss-poor sunsetting of Docker Cloud and painting a target on their own back for a few adbucks. [1]: https://hub.docker.com/ https://hub.docker.com/
- danjoc 8y ago
  >Docker Hub is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR. Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American mega-corps. Docker has no money so the EU isn't going to do anything to them. >I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t think they were about to fold anyway I'm sure they're inundated with complaints from unsuccessful companies trying to shoot down their biggest competitors already. Adding one more to the pile is only going to waste your time and that of EU regulators.
  - thayne 8y ago
    > Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American mega-corps And yet it hurts small startups that don't have the resources to become fully GDPR compliant more.
    - jonbronson 8y ago
      This is just inaccurate. GDPR is derived from warranted concern over rampant data abuse. And it's actually much easier to make a startup GDPR compliant than it is to overhaul a large company with rigid systems already in place. If anything, GDPR favors startups.
alexandernst 8y ago
oh my... they are getting the full version of “improved user experience” in their github comments right now.
delbel 8y ago
Ubuntu for raspberry pi requires a ubuntu login continue installing it, after formatting and setting the network up. It won't let you boot into a working setup until you create account on their website. Kind of hard if you don't have access to any other device.
- tomrod 8y ago
  That's so dumb. How can this possibly be seen as a good idea?
- deadbunny 8y ago
  Really? This must have changed recently. I installed their PI image about 6 months ago without having to register. That really sucks :(
- niemeyer 8y ago
  I work for Canonical on snapd, so can provide some background here. You're probably describing Ubuntu Core instead of classic Ubuntu. The UX there is oriented for devices, and it was cooked to avoid default passwords in an environment in which the device often will have no display. So once you boot, the device is in a running state, and the brand (manufacturer) that cooked the image has the choice of allowing individuals to login or not. In addition to a store account, the brand can also offer a "system-user" assertion, that is a signed document that you can present devices to get a system user in. That assertion may detail remote login, SSH keys, and also a hashed password for independent logins. That only works once on the device, though, for obvious reasons. For generic Ubuntu Core devices the "brand" is Canonical, and for those devices you can get an assertion signed and with it log into any number of devices you want. That procedure may be done over USB storage, for example. Just insert a USB key into the device and your user credentials will be setup, even if it's completely offline. Again, that only works once on the device. If you lose the keys the device will need to be factory-reset.
  - dserodio 8y ago
    Great explanation, thanks
j45 8y ago
I find this troubling as well. Reminds me of having to log in for mysql.
mbell 8y ago
It seems like Docker is in a really awkward place as a company. Their strategy was clearly to get everyone on the container hyper train then monetize by selling the production orchestration / runtime. But Kubernetes happened and GCP / AWS have rolled out competition in all the other supporting system needed; container registries, build pipelines, etc. What is the actual pitch for Docker EE now? Their marketing is pushing hard on 'security', but otherwise it seems like they are just selling a pretty UI for K8s. I don't see that being enough to support a company that has taken 250M in funding.
- dan_quixote 8y ago
  The k8s community is moving full steam ahead toward replacing docker containers with OCI-compliant cri-o/podman. Docker had a good run with a great idea, but it doesn’t make sense to leave all of this vendor-agnostic tooling reliant on Docker (the company).
  - radus 8y ago
    What about a docker-compose alternative?
    - mbell 8y ago
      https://github.com/kubernetes/kompose https://github.com/kubernetes/kompose or https://github.com/helm/helm https://github.com/helm/helm or keep using docker's dev client, it can target a locally running k8s now.
  - rattray 8y ago
    Interesting, where can we learn more about this? (eg; cri-o, podman, I saw rkt mentioned elsewhere)
    - dan_quixote 8y ago
      This is a post explaining how the k8s community got to the current state: https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-clarity-342b62172dc3 https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-clarity-342b6217... And here’s a little info on why we’re using cri-o at SUSE: https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-caas-platform-3/ https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-caas-...
gnu8 8y ago
Sorry, I have store fatigue and I don't need another one.
artursapek 8y ago
I noticed this today! Thankfully I was able to dig up their instructions for Ubuntu installation which just depend on apt, and they still worked fine. You can practically hear the Docker devs fighting with PMs/business guys about this one.
gsich 8y ago
"user experience", what a lame excuse.
masterleep 8y ago
Just use systemd-nspawn.
WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
Don't worry guys, I created a PR to fix it. This is an open source project so I'm sure this will be priority one as soon as the Docker project admins get online (https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242)
- m_eiman 8y ago
  Fixing a PR problem with a PR, neat.
cdoxsey 8y ago
Docker is such a mess. As a tool for building containers its cumbersome, has bizarre and frustrating limitations and has issues that haven’t been addressed in years. You can’t use semver for tags, it eats up all your disk space and you have to manually GC it, etc… Multi-build support is basically useless and invariably you end up writing convoluted bash scripts to get the thing to work. Caching is terrible pretty much across the board. How many petabytes of data are wasted every day re-syncing apt-get? As a runtime engine its basically dead for production use. If you ever try to use it you’ll quickly discover that it has tons of problems. It locks up, orphans processes, stops responding to commands, forgets about containers, etc. And its not safe to run arbitrary containers. You’d be surprised by how many companies using Kubernetes gave up using docker a long time ago. Please save yourself a lot of heartache and just use containerd. As a concept, containers never really lived up to their potential. "A Docker container image is a lightweight, standalone, executable package of software that includes everything needed to run an application." As long as that application runs in linux. As a company Docker is a failure. All their cloud stuff is clunky, poorly thought out and at this point largely irrelevent. I'll be surprised if it will last 5 years. Kubernetes won. Those cute, cuddly characters and the Docker name are basically all they have going for them, and all these things, the Moby rename, the requiring login to download, etc... are the death throes of a dying company. Docker is the next jQuery. People don't realize just how easy all this stuff will be to replace. Google already did it. Like 5 times. (gVisor, jib, kaniko, ...) It was probably some intern's side project. Microsoft should just get it over with and acquire the company. It would be the perfect cherry on top to their Github cake.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- notamy 8y ago
  > You’d be surprised by how many companies using Kubernetes gave up using docker a long time ago. What are they using instead? cri-o? rkt?
  - cdoxsey 8y ago
    At Datadog we are using containerd. We've heard of other companies using cri-o. There's also a lot of mixed deployments of container vs native out there. It seems Kubernetes is popular but not many companies with a large number of servers are willing to bet the farm on it, so they may only run a subset of their services with it (stateless, or test environments) You can use Docker, just be ready to account for the instability. With proper detection and strategies to evict bad nodes you can build a reliable platform out of it. (though for stateful things you may end up with a real mess on your hands) Weve seen issues with cointainerd too, but at least so far it seems more stable. Basically every piece of docker is being replaced. The runtime (containerd, crio), the tools to build containers (google has several), the server to host images (ecr, gcr, etc)... it's weird to call it docker when none of the components actually use docker anymore. The gui and installer is nice for local development, so I guess it has that going for it.
zatkin 8y ago
Oracle recently did this for the Oracle Client libraries too. Shame.
_zachs 8y ago
Congratulations Docker, the only "user experience" this has enhanced is making me start to learn about cri-o.
kolderman 8y ago
Did someone say coughserverlesscough?
yeukhon 8y ago
This feels like Oracle.
tannhaeuser 8y ago
Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our time on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels. Or have developers interested in containers spend their efforts on standardized rather than Linux-only solutions. Docker has IMHO never made any sense for the use cases people seem to have in mind, as it really doesn't isolate you from anything (neither from the host O/S nor Docker itself). Docker, Inc. touting the security aspect doesn't hold merit given Docker must be run as root, and containers can't use host system permissions etc.
- majewsky 8y ago
  > Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our time on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels. Not sure what you're getting at here. Since our team switched to Docker/Kubernetes, I've spent considerably less time on pointless deployment scripting and reinventing wheels.
test6554 8y ago
If money is an issue, perhaps docker should make container authors host their own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable in dockerhub.
- l33th4x0r2 8y ago
  I don't think lowering their cost base is what investors want...
- hashrate 8y ago
  > host their own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable You aware that hosting probably represent 1% of Docker spending at the moment ? You aware that Docker has 100+ employees based in SF where the average salary is 120K$/Year ? And here I'm being gentle not to include the management[0] which in general has salary closer to 300K than 120K [0] https://www.docker.com/company https://www.docker.com/company
  - test6554 8y ago
    I wasn't aware. Thanks!
arminiusreturns 8y ago
As a sysadmin I'm so glad I skipped the docker craze and just dug into kvm/qemu/proxmox/lxc more.
T-Winsnes 8y ago
Still available through their doco https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-mac/install/ https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-mac/install/
mirimir 8y ago
So hey, https://anonbox.net/ https://anonbox.net/ works fine.
yuiiug 8y ago
I know about cri-o for the server, but are there any good alternatives for local development?
ngngngng 8y ago
Docker is too heavy for golang, which is all I use scaled horizontally anymore. I can easily create a binary for any operating system. With dep (and even more so vgo) reproducible builds just really aren't a problem with golang. But when i've got a virtually unlimited number of green threads I can spin up with goroutines, why do I need to containerize to scale horizontally?
- dberg 8y ago
  Have you checked out alpine ? Very lightweight image.
  - hoschicz 8y ago
    Since Go programs are statically linked, is even something like Alpine required? Isn't it possible to just build the Go binary from the "scratch" image? Maybe throw in glibc in there
hardwaresofton 8y ago
Can anyone who works inside PR for software-developer facing companies like Docker explain how a decision like this could make it past vetting? Any software developer (who isn't drunk on the kool aid?) could tell you that this would result in loss of good will.
- majewsky 8y ago
  Companies do not consist of 100% software developers.
sjellis 8y ago
Buildah seems to be becoming a replacement for Docker on the desktop: https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah Pure CLI tool that does not run a daemon, from Red Hat, recently hit version 1. Unfortunately, I don't think that macOS is supported yet.
- spacenick88 8y ago
  I really want to like this and conceptually the idea of being a simple command is appealing. That said, I feel like writing a shell script and especially their example is really really off putting. For one the flexibility it offers means people are going to use that flexibility to do weird stuff, second a shell script far too easily captures dependencies to it's environment again making things non-reproducible. If you allow people to put local paths, dependencies on local weirdnesses and so on in their build scripts they will, I've seen it happen time and again.
dabockster 8y ago
Stuff like this is why mirrors are a thing.
blt 8y ago
torrents would be a good way to deal with this.
hashrate 8y ago
This is pretty much a reality check. Like any other business , Open Source needs funding. It's well know Docker is far from being profitable. This is somewhat represents how ultimately money always win on open source one way or another.
- majewsky 8y ago
  > Like any other business, Open Source needs funding. That's a valid comment... for a different discussion. The actual issue here is that Docker's business model is falling apart, with alternative container runtimes (cri-o, rkt, etc.) and alternative orchestrators (mostly k8s) eating their lunch. And all of those are open source too.
deleted 8y ago
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Kiro 8y ago
This issue was opened in the docs repo and it was closed in that context, which was correct (the docs do not need to change as for now). The docs do not dictate how you download Docker and joaofnfernandes is only responsible for the docs as far as I can tell.
darth_mastah 8y ago
So you have to log in to Docker Store on Windows and on Mac. I sort of get the frustration. Using one of these systems for development is a painful experience on its own, no need to make it more miserable.
type0 8y ago
This ship is sinking and all the rats has already left
acorkery 8y ago
Bit of a cliché, but nothing is free. You are choosing to use technology provided by a for-profit company. Community Edition does not mean it's owned by the community. It's absolutely irritating to have to create an account and login when you just want to try something, but if you're invested in a technology and the company that provides it (at no direct monetary cost to you), I don't think it's worth getting stroppy about. Plenty of other more sinister and cynical things happening in tech right now to get riled about
Ra1d3n 8y ago
Thank god for GDPR.
phobosdeimos 8y ago
"Uhuh. You mean, force people to login with an email so we can target them with an ad campaign so we make money??" Good luck with I'm behind 1000 spam filters.
Legogris 8y ago
Correct me if I am wrong, but all components of Docker CE are open source and one could therefore still download and build the binaries themselves, right? I really don't see the issue of requiring hoops to get precompiled binaries as long as there is a way to get and build the binaries yourself.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Annoying but not the end of the world IMHO. In any case, I have a dockerhub account so I can publish containers there; so I might as well use it. Similarly I have a Github account and am actually a paying customer as well. The bottom line is I have accounts left right and center for things that I depend on professionally. Some of these I even pay for but most of them I don't pay a penny. This is a closed source product distributed for free. They are well in their rights to charge money for it even. Given that and given how important this product is for my day to day routine (I run lots of docker stuff all the time), and given that docker has been contributing a lot of OSS code in this space, I think this is a relatively small and entirely fair price to pay. I don't agree with the sense of entitlement in this thread. Docker providing a free community edition of a product they've built that allows running docker on top of Mac/Windows is not charity but a means for them to up-sell their commercial solutions. That's the only reason it exists. I'm grateful that it exists and I hope that they can make this work so I can continue to depend on this. An alternative is getting a linux laptop and running pure open source versions of whatever containerization you require.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
olafure 8y ago
There's an alternative, without the docker overhead, https://coreos.com/rkt/ https://coreos.com/rkt/
aurelien 8y ago
That is for your security!
dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
I'm very curious how this develops. It was already a bit strange to notice that one of the several container technologies available got significantly more visibility thanks to a smart marketing team and targeting Mac and Windows users. Personally, I'm using LXC and related technologies and see no benefit in switching to Docker whatsoever. Eventually most people run their containers on Linux anyway, and the LXC's way of doing things seems very native and natural in this environment.
barrystaes 8y ago
This one comment sums up the changes nicely: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414553120 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue... A download went from 5 steps to 12 steps, to improve the Docker experience? The irony is the resulting statistics might actually say less people had a negative experience with docker, now they dont even download and try it...
- yAnonymous 8y ago
  No, the improvement comes from reversing the change. Turn things to shit, then take credit for improving them. Really smart move by the UX team.
codedokode 8y ago
We decided to spend a minute of your time for registration to improve your experience (and another minute that it will take to unsubscribe from spam later). But I think it's only fair. Those developers who dislike this probably do the same to their users.
bandrami 8y ago
guix environment --container [ list of packages ] -- command I haven't looked back since they added that in the last version. Configurable network namespace sharing or isolation, configurable fs namespace sharing or isolation, configurable environment variables within the container, and the option to "pack" the entire thing as a tar.gz to deploy.
bborud 8y ago
Well, I suppose it is time to realise that Docker has perhaps become a bit too dominant and that the ecosystems of which it is a part, might benefit from there being more alternatives.
Traubenfuchs 8y ago
It is very sad to see the official reasoning to be "to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward". This is a blatant politician-talk-tier lie.
bcoughlan 8y ago
It's not a good move, but I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github, calling the developers jerks etc. Our company has never paid Docker for anything, but we've benefited greatly from having Docker images be the output of our backend build jobs. I never have to dig into classpath errors from conflicting JARs any more, or deal with out of date JDKs living on QA and production machines. I can deploy a dependent service that I know nothing about without digging through code and documentation. Yes it has its issues but the positives far outweigh the negatives. I understand that it's a frustrating move and the wrong path to go to for monetization, but can we also recognize that it's a company has done a lot for the community and is struggling to secure its future, instead of calling them names?
- michaelt 8y ago
  I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github Some people see a change making the UX worse promoted as a change that improves the UX, and feel it's an honest mistake that will be corrected by straightforward, constructive feedback. Other people see the same thing and think the dishonesty is intentional. Docker would hardly be the first company to do this [1] - but some people may have seen Docker as 'not like those other companies' and be disappointed to discover they are. [1] http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09 http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09
  - troydavis 8y ago
    Your summary doesn’t line up with the linked-to GitHub issue. “Straightforward, constructive” feedback was provided by the issue creator and was seemingly ignored.
- dsign 8y ago
  Cheers to that. We recently had to support a customer stuck in a Linux distro from a few years ago... this was an older guy that like how things were made back in the day and who hasn't upgraded his system because nobody uses good'ol init scripts anymore in Linux... We had to spend the best part of a week creating by hand a binary of our product that could run in his distro, including versions of system libraries with critical security patches. Docker the company and docker the tooling may have issues, but those Docker images are a life-saver at times.
2T1Qka0rEiPr 8y ago
I can understand why people hate this, but this comment did make me laugh: > Do you want to be Oracle? Because this is how you become Oracle. -1 Revenue: "US$39.83 billion (2018)" - I can see a few reasons why they might hah
vectorEQ 8y ago
https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ <--- you're welcome. if u don't need some producer who obviously prefers money over user happiness or quality. just use true open source things. ultimatley that's the attitude that leads to them seling your information or maybe worse...(wether they do it NOW or not is irrelevant) docker is your infra... nice spot for backdoor once it closes itself further from public..., wether they are doing it NOW or not, i'd look for another road to this rome you seek
amelius 8y ago
Somebody should create a mirror site.
appleflaxen 8y ago
The interesting part to me: this has been open since June 20. Anyone know why it just captured the collective attention of HN readers?
deleted 8y ago
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chrisper 8y ago
Quite hilarious that this guy's motto is "I help high-tech companies cross the chasm by making their products easier to use and learn" http://www.joaofn.com/about/ http://www.joaofn.com/about/ He is doing quite the opposite
- amouat 8y ago
  I think we should avoid commenting about the dev's background. It was clearly a company decision and the discussion should be at that level.
  - chrisper 8y ago
    He isn't even a developer. He just documents stuff, if I understand that correctly and makes it sound like he is a messias.
Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
I have never installed Docker through any route other than a Linux distribution's package manager. Why would anyone use the download in the first place?
- aneutron 8y ago
  Mac and Windows
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    Developers who use those deserve what they get.
- deadbunny 8y ago
  Because this is about Windows/MacOS downloads.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    Was it really necessary for you to say the same thing aneutron, the only other reply, said an hour ago?
    - deadbunny 8y ago
      I had the tab open for a while so didn't see their reply. So no, not "necessary" just accidental. Sorry to have cause you such mental anguish by answering your question which would have been answered if you had read any of the thread or the linked GH issue.
madmax96 8y ago
I get it. I hate login-walls too. The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard, etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has their own life and own emotions. Treat them with the same respect you would like to be shown when people are unhappy with you. The comments in that github issue reflect very poorly on us as a professional community to the point that I'm embarrassed.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- warewolff 8y ago
  I agree a 100%. It really is annoying to need to be able to login to download the binaries and being dishonest with the user base is not a good approach in order to build great company-customer relations. But all this hate and frustration being channeled on the docker team/this issue is like people just bandwagoning on a issue where somebody addressed a issue in a respectful manner and they see it as an invitation to just shit on people, like "oh they fucked up, lets give em hell until the people responsible for this curse the day they were born". It is a really poor behaviour. I don't believe any of them haters would approach people like this when being confronted with them face to face.
- blub 8y ago
  Pulling this kind of crap on customers also reflects poorly on us as a professional community. Which other profession steals so much personal data from others through manipulation and trickery? So all in all it looks like we're all part of a low standars professional community that should be perpetually embarrassed of itself.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    As a professional, you should realize that you are not a customer of Docker, you are a user that provides them no value. They have little revenues and an over valuation to justify, while being attacked from all sides by competitors (Google, AWS, RedHat, Pivotal). Docker is in a bad position and they are desperate.
m-p-3 8y ago
we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward The login-wall is not a great start :/
SEJeff 8y ago
If you don't want to use your email to download docker, use bugmenot: http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com
msl09 8y ago
Docker is my perfect example of a OSS being poisoned by excessive money. OSS needs money to survive but too much of it (a too heavy burden to turn a profit) can poison it leading to significant issues being ignored because either the paying customers are not affected or because the issue is an integral part of the business model. I wished someone were able to fork docker and strip off all of the extra fluff (mainly service stuff) but I don't think anyone without deep pockets can support such massively complex software.
deleted 8y ago
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jpic 8y ago
I'm really sorry for the proprietary OS users, that's really a shame that they have to give their email to docker inc. now, if they haven't already (docker hub anyone ?), everytime they install docker on a machine (once per install ?), all this crying its makes mes wanna cry :'(
ManoMarks 8y ago
Hi I head up Docker Developer Relations. There are plenty of ways to get Docker CE without logging Docker Store. See my comment on GitHub for more details. https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414758273 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue...
- hu3 8y ago
  As someone pointed out in the Github issue, Docker Toolbox is legacy. I'm not sure how I feel about recommending outdated software to Mac and Windows. It's also slower and not the default way to get Docker.
- techntoke 8y ago
  You missed the mark ManoMarks.
parliament32 8y ago
This is probably the straw that broke the camel's back for Docker. Not that anyone expected it to stick around for that long anyway, they've had a terrible history of failure and poor design choices.
schlotzisk 8y ago
You can download it here --> https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-windows/install/#download-docker-for-windows https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-windows/install/#d...
owaislone 8y ago
Kubernetes will eventually just kill docker. It's the best way to run docker in the cloud right now and keeps getting better. Plus it abstracts docker with pods. Better support for OCI/Rkt and docker will just die.
jpic 8y ago
If you care about free software, why not run a free OS ? just wondering ...
sahoo 8y ago
Have fun. https://download.docker.com/ https://download.docker.com/
tempodox 8y ago
> ...we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. Such obvious run-of-the-mill marketing BS. Moving forward, I'll give Docker a wide berth.

1620 points by dhuramas 8y ago

Linux: https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/ Win: https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/win/static/stable/x86_64/ Mac: https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/ https://download.docker.com/mac/static/stable/x86_64/

eabutfordocker 8y ago
The intent is to provide users with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different download links.
- throwaway917100 8y ago
  I see what you did there :)
- teddyh 8y ago
  For those who don’t understand the reference: https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-posting-the-most-hated-1820391000 https://gizmodo.com/congratulations-to-ea-games-for-posting-...
deleted 8y ago
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alpb 8y ago
The issue in the post talks about "Docker for Mac" and "Docker for Windows" which is basically what Docker for Desktop is. The links you provided are just for the docker binary (which is, mac/windows they're just the docker client –not sure about what the linux binary contains). They're not the same thing.
- teraflop 8y ago
  The Docker binary for Linux appears to also be behind a login wall, at least if you follow the most obvious navigation links. (Even then, it's not trivial to find, because the standard Linux version of Docker isn't mentioned at all in the "getting started" section of the site. You have to know that they apparently call it "Docker Engine" now.)
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    > the standard Linux version of Docker isn't mentioned at all in the "getting started" section of the site.
- bufferoverflow 8y ago
  Is this the desktop? Win: https://get.docker.com/builds/Windows/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.zip https://get.docker.com/builds/Windows/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-... Linux: https://get.docker.com/builds/Linux/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.tgz https://get.docker.com/builds/Linux/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce... Mac: https://get.docker.com/builds/Darwin/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-ce.tgz https://get.docker.com/builds/Darwin/x86_64/docker-17.05.0-c...

notyourwork 8y ago

Headlines false, I just did this a few days ago.

TehCorwiz 8y ago
Please take a look here: https://store.docker.com/editions/community/docker-ce-desktop-windows https://store.docker.com/editions/community/docker-ce-deskto... It does in fact ask the user to login before giving them a download link. The files themselves don't appear to behind a login-wall since people are posting them far and wide. But the website very much implies that you need to register.
- brodsky 8y ago
  This is a link specifically from the Docker store. Download pages are also linked from multiple places in the documentation, binaries are installable via Docker's package repositories, and generally available far and wide. This is a misleading, sensationalist headline, i.e. clickbait.
  - Groxx 8y ago
    If you go to docker.com, click "get started", click "docker for mac", it sends you to exactly that URL. Sure, maybe there are side links they haven't changed, but this is a pretty clear login-wall.
SkyPuncher 8y ago
> I just did this a few days ago .....or....possibly....this change happened within the past few days?
- minimaxir 8y ago
  The GitHub issue was filed 2 months ago.
- notyourwork 8y ago
  It appears that it did change in last few days because I had a conversation with a teammate and remember asking about signing up for an account and he showed me how to download without. However, today I cannot find the same navigation path when trying so I think something changed.

philip1209 8y ago

https://get.docker.com https://get.docker.com

sgarg26 8y ago

Is Docker having trouble monetizing?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wmf 8y ago
Always has been.
chii 8y ago
> monetizing i dont think anyone has every paid for docker. I guess the VC money is starting to run low.

Rauchg 8y ago

On macOS, I recommend: `brew cask install docker`

jjeaff 8y ago
on windows, I recommend `choco install docker.for.windows`
- ulzeraj 8y ago
  Risking a derail how is chocolatey nowadays? I really liked the idea but stopped using it because most of the packets were way behind the current versions.
  - bacongobbler 8y ago
    Chocolatey is in the same space as the AUR (Arch User Repositories) in my opinion. It can be a hit or miss, but usually a hit. The support is fantastic when there's a bunch of users consuming the project as many users will contribute fixes to the package (e.g. packages for devs like node, cURL, git, etc). On the other hand, less popular packages will occasionally suffer from bitrot, though that all depends on the maintainer and whether or not the package has been configured to update automatically upon new releases. See also https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-process#package-is-outdated https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-triage-process#package-i...
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    Anything popular is up to date. But many windows programs have their own update methods anyway. So in some cases, you install the older version, but then update when asked.
ulzeraj 8y ago
Mmm thats what I did. I had no idea downloading the DMG from the website required some kind of registration.

amaccuish 8y ago

I also can't delete my account myself after having created it. I believe the best way to operate is to make something as easy to delete as it was to create...

edoceo 8y ago
Maybe retention for legal reasons? But, yea.
larkeith 8y ago
Pretty sure that violates GDPR. Might want to email them about that.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  Ye I only managed to find a "feedback" email address. If they're going to make you have an account, they could have thought about what if people want their account deleted...
  - bigiain 8y ago
    You have to look around a bit, but: "Customers may view, update or change their registration information by logging in to their accounts at www.docker.com. Requests to access, change, or delete your information will be handled within 30 days." "Questions regarding this Privacy Policy or the information practices of the Website should be directed to privacy@docker.com or by mailing Docker Privacy, 144 Townsend Street, San Francisco, CA 94107." https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-policy https://www.docker.com/legal/docker-privacy-policy
    - amaccuish 8y ago
      Cheers, lifesaver <3. I'll resend my email there. I will remember to look harder next time.
- jimktrains2 8y ago
  Hackernews is worse as even if you email them they won't delete your account unless there is some issue actually causing you a problem.

threeseed 8y ago

Not sure what the issue is here. You can download Docker from many other sources without a login. And they are only putting the Docker Community Edition behind the email paywall as pretty much every open source/freemium company does these days.

fudoo 8y ago

I found the real problem with Docker to be that it downloads things from their repository. Just like Maven, it's a major pain point.

knicholes 8y ago
You'd be pleased to use docker-registry, then! We use Artifactory that runs its a docker-registry compatible something (maybe it's running docker-registry itself?) for our artifacts.
- thiagocsf 8y ago
  The free version of Artifactory doesn’t support Docker registries. Nexus 3 OSS does.
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HelloNurse 8y ago
What? I thought containment as an enabler for reproducibility was the whole point of containers.
barrystaes 8y ago
Its possible to run your own registry: docker run -d -p 5000:5000 --restart=always --name registry registry:2 From https://docs.docker.com/registry/deploying/ https://docs.docker.com/registry/deploying/ Or use the one in GitLab https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/container_registry.html https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/container_registry.h...
- fudoo 8y ago
  Great, that's what I wanted from containers, more systems to run.

ghayes 8y ago

Can anyone post an experience using rkt [0]. I'd love an alternative to using Docker for containers, though I'm not sure how well a community has evolved around rkt. [0] https://github.com/rkt/rkt https://github.com/rkt/rkt

edoceo 8y ago
This comment made/makes me steer away https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912 https://github.com/rkt/rkt/issues/3912 There is another open issue claiming the project is dead (but maybe it's just stable) My whole team is onboard with docker, and we don't need account to install/use.
- ori_b 8y ago
  Why do you believe that churn is a good thing, especially for a thin wrapper around Linux namespaces? There should not be much this is actually doing, so lots of commits would be worrying.
  - edoceo 8y ago
    I didn't say that that churn is a good thing. The github-issue and a sibling are folks asking this question. Why? Lingering bugs? Waiting for features? That the question is open is the concern. And again, compared to my existing tooling which is not having that question and has momentum. Evaluated against docker (a recent move for us) but didn't choose. We also looked a "roll your own" type solutions - required expertise our team didn't have.
- shakna 8y ago
  Last commit 19 days ago. Code commits merged into master seem to be around every 3 months for the last couple years. That seems healthy to me. As for documentation, it seems to have monthly or bimonthly updates. The question in your issue is that their is a lack of activity... Came about three weeks after a commit, and two weeks before another. The issue just seems to be that rkt prefers their mailing list to GitHub issues, though they do pay attention to both. And I don't see a problem with that.

userbinator 8y ago

That's what throwaway accounts are for... and this, of course: http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com In any case, "to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward" is yet another example of the official-sounding-yet-bullshit, vague and meandering language that seems to permeate into everything these days. (Is there a specific term for it? "Business-speak" doesn't have enough of a negative connotation for the "We did it this way and you will like it. If you don't, fuck off." that they really want to say.)

sfoblows2017 8y ago
If you are too much of a douche to give a thowaway account for docker service, then they dont want you anyway. Your kind are not savvy, your kind are just douches that would shit on their own gma for a dollar.
yalue 8y ago
Probably the slightly better term here would be "weasel words". (Or better yet, "bullshit")
jchw 8y ago
FWIW, as far as I know, Docker for Windows and Docker for Mac really are closed source freeware. My honest opinion is we should move away from it. As for what to move to... That's definitely an open question. Docker for Windows is definitely one of the best developer experiences I've had on Windows because they put actual engineering work into it. All the same, I still found it buggier and less supported than Docker for Mac. At least on Windows, I wish we could combine the cool LXSS work with a development-only Docker implementation. Ultimately, Docker should not be synonymous with containers anyway. Future versions of Kubernetes will not use Docker and instead run their own containers on top of libcontainer by default, as I understand it. I also feel rkt has a much nicer design than Docker, doing away with the daemon aspect of it. Hoping to see more development in the future.
- gshulegaard 8y ago
  If you want lightweight virtual machine functionality I would recommend LXD/LXC. If you want app virtualization and packaging, I have been pretty intrigued by what I have found out experimenting with `snaps`. The biggest issue for me that I have hit with LXD/LXC is that host-to-container mount sharing is not as easy...which means I had to do some workflow alteration for moving from `docker` containers to `lxd` ones for existing projects...but otherwise I have been really happy with LXD. Edit: And just to be clear, host-to-container mount sharing is possible, I just had to work at it and slightly alter my workflow to get the best solution.

kbumsik 8y ago

I wonder how requiring login to download helps a company in general? Docker says "improve experience for users" but is collecting download counts for each accounts important?

mdavidn 8y ago
Lead generation.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  It's always fun to give fake info to those sites that require it for that purpose. I've been using the white house phone number for 15 years.
- rpeden 8y ago
  I think there's a good chance that's the answer. All they need to do is take every e-mail address that's not @ gmail/hotmail/outlook.com/other free providers, zip them through something like the Clearbit API to flesh out info about the person, and then forward promising prospects on to the sales team for some personal attention. I don't even mind companies doing this, as long as they're honest about why they're asking me to register.
ben174 8y ago
“Subscribe to our opt out mailing list so we can spam you until you unsubscribe”
wmf 8y ago
They will send you spam every two weeks reminding you of the goodness of Docker.

numbsafari 8y ago

The Oracle acquisition must be nigh... emulate the master to gain his approval you must!

deadbunny 8y ago
Hell even Oracle let you download the latest version without logging in.

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bmc7505 8y ago

If you're frustrated with Docker's slow pace of development are are looking for a good alternative, have a look at Singularity containers. They're interoperable with Docker Hub and OCI compatible images, and offer a much better experience for HPC, machine learning and big data environments. Their GPU support is top notch. They don't run on as many platforms as Docker, but are aiming to grow into cross-platform. Sylabs is a small team in Austin, TX that does a lot of the development work, but they are quickly gaining adoption in academia. It's available on Cedar and Graham in Compute Canada (a large supercomputing cluster that serves most of Canada). We use Singularity on all our lab machines as it is much easier for IT admins to manage, and doesn't require sudo access. Their GPU support is top notch. https://www.sylabs.io/ https://www.sylabs.io/

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btown 8y ago
Is there any overhead due to the virtualization layer, relative to bare metal? Scientific computing usually has much more stringent requirements for CPU/GPU performance than the average web startup. If the performance is good enough, containerization would be a great match for the domain, as you’re often shipping code to government-funded clusters you have little control over.
thanatropism 8y ago
Your repetition repetition of "their gpu support is top notch" reminded me of Florida man Marco Rubio in those 2015 presidential debates.
- bmc7505 8y ago
  The topmost of notches. Very reproducible and user-friendly. https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-singularity-hpc/ https://devblogs.nvidia.com/docker-compatibility-singularity...
Arkanosis 8y ago
It's important to mention that Singularity does not cover the same functional scope as Docker, and therefore isn't a good alternative for all use cases. It's much better for some, close to useless for others. To make it short: - huge pro: it relies on user rights and doesn't require root, so it's easier to trust for an admin, and to use for a non-admin; - huge con: it provides no isolation (it's not that it does a bad job at doing it: it doesn't even try, by design). There are probably many other differences, but that's what has stroke me the most. Don't get me wrong: I've only had positive feedback about it; it just isn't a one-to-one replacement for Docker.

mevile 8y ago

It's in Docker's interest to capture as much value as they can from their products, their calculus is changing. It's their decision to make, however passing it off as in the best interest of users is a bit of a whopper and not the best way to communicate it. I don't think entitlement to other people's work is the best response though.

sjansen 8y ago
While some people might be reacting based on simple entitlement, I suspect that for the majority this triggers a strong reaction because it is a warning sign. If Docker were a big company, it'd just be part of the normal drift toward customer abuse. Because Docker is still a relatively small company, it looks like a desperate attempt to stay afloat through increased monetization. The unintended side effect is that it makes me less inclined to purchase anything because I don't want to bet on a sinking ship.
tannhaeuser 8y ago
Docker is just a thin wrapper around Linux (API + namespaces). Dockerfiles frequently install a whole userspace (such as Alpine's or Debian's) as a base, to then add proprietary bits. Basically, Docker can be seen as GPL circumvention device. People aren't entitled so much as they're frustrated as they realize they've given too much control to some inessential piece of commercial software.
- majewsky 8y ago
  In which way does using Docker circumvent the GPL? It's not like Docker images are opaque binary blobs, unless you count tar.gz as opaque.
  - tannhaeuser 8y ago
    Because a GNU userspace is "distributed" along with proprietary software?
    - 8y ago

djflutt3rshy 8y ago

Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this "We're improving user experience! Trust us!" pride-and-accomplishment nonsense that everyone keeps regurgitating. We're not preschoolers, the Internet can spot marketing slogans a mile away.

ethbro 8y ago
For reference and so people can be outraged without RTFA, here was the original close comment: -- joaofnfernandes (2 months ago) "I know that this can feel like a nuisance, but we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. As far as I can tell, the docs don't need changes, so I'll close this issue, but feel free to comment."
- TylerE 8y ago
  Has there ever been a change to "improve user experience" that has _actually_ improved user experience? (Looking at you, Google.)
  - Deimorz 8y ago
    http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ "In our quest to improve the service for you, the user, we're making it worse. It was great before. It's going to be terrible now, but you're going to love the changes. We asked our investors and they said you're very excited about it being less good, which is great news for you."
  - travisjungroth 8y ago
    A ton! But they just don’t usually call it that. 90% of changes just make things better for the user. 10% make things worse, but they’re obvious and honest and we’re okay with it. And then 1% is the stuff like this. The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle. The EA “sense of pride and accomplishment”. The Netflix (wait, why are they here twice?) show recommendations that aren’t ads that’s happening right now.

zapita 8y ago

I understand the rationale for filing this issue, although I personally disagree with it... Docker for Mac is great freeware, and I don’t mind logging into Steam and Mac Store for my other apps, so I don’t have an issue with doing the same with Docker. But for someone who greatly cares about not having to give their email, I can see how it can be annoying to see the policy change after they started using the software... Either way... Holy shit is that github thread full of negativity and entitlement! Pretty shocking. Even if you’re unhappy with something, that’s no way to treat a team that is giving you a tool for free!

threeseed 8y ago
The more hilarious part is the reaction from here. You can't be a successful startup if you don't have a list of your product's users.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  >You can't be a successful startup if you don't have a list of your product's users. Id Software does not have a list of people who used Doom.
  - horsawlarway 8y ago
    Yes, they do. Literally. the first version required you to register by phone or mail in order to get the full game. If you mean the most recent version... they know exactly which commercial retailers purchased the game, and in what quantities. They might not know exactly which consumer ended up with those games, but those consumers were not their customers, the retailers were.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
kaishiro 8y ago
While I agree there seems to be a significant amount of negativity on display, I'm not sure I'm shocked by it. The ticket response by joaofnfernandes is remarkably tone deaf and reads as fairly dishonest.

jeffbr13 8y ago

Docker Hub[1] is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR. Wording on the pop-up: > We and our advertising partners use cookies on this site and around the web to improve your website experience and provide you with personalised advertising from this site and other advertisers in AdRoll's network. By clicking "allow" or navigating this site, you accept the placement and use of these cookies for these purposes. It’s not a modal, but supposedly ignoring it opts you into the tracking, with the only choices being “Allow” or “Learn More” and the [x] button also being labelled “Allow”. IANAL, but it’s not informed individualised consent if there’s literally no opt-out, and there’s not a lawful basis unless advertising-cookies are suddenly the enabling technology behind downloadable containers. I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t think they were about to fold anyway, after their piss-poor sunsetting of Docker Cloud and painting a target on their own back for a few adbucks. [1]: https://hub.docker.com/ https://hub.docker.com/

danjoc 8y ago
>Docker Hub is also blatantly in breach of the GDPR. Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American mega-corps. Docker has no money so the EU isn't going to do anything to them. >I’d report them to the Information Commissioner‘s Office myself if I didn’t think they were about to fold anyway I'm sure they're inundated with complaints from unsuccessful companies trying to shoot down their biggest competitors already. Adding one more to the pile is only going to waste your time and that of EU regulators.
- thayne 8y ago
  > Truth is, no one cares. GDPR is an overreach designed to shake down American mega-corps And yet it hurts small startups that don't have the resources to become fully GDPR compliant more.
  - jonbronson 8y ago
    This is just inaccurate. GDPR is derived from warranted concern over rampant data abuse. And it's actually much easier to make a startup GDPR compliant than it is to overhaul a large company with rigid systems already in place. If anything, GDPR favors startups.

alexandernst 8y ago

oh my... they are getting the full version of “improved user experience” in their github comments right now.

delbel 8y ago

Ubuntu for raspberry pi requires a ubuntu login continue installing it, after formatting and setting the network up. It won't let you boot into a working setup until you create account on their website. Kind of hard if you don't have access to any other device.

tomrod 8y ago
That's so dumb. How can this possibly be seen as a good idea?
deadbunny 8y ago
Really? This must have changed recently. I installed their PI image about 6 months ago without having to register. That really sucks :(
niemeyer 8y ago
I work for Canonical on snapd, so can provide some background here. You're probably describing Ubuntu Core instead of classic Ubuntu. The UX there is oriented for devices, and it was cooked to avoid default passwords in an environment in which the device often will have no display. So once you boot, the device is in a running state, and the brand (manufacturer) that cooked the image has the choice of allowing individuals to login or not. In addition to a store account, the brand can also offer a "system-user" assertion, that is a signed document that you can present devices to get a system user in. That assertion may detail remote login, SSH keys, and also a hashed password for independent logins. That only works once on the device, though, for obvious reasons. For generic Ubuntu Core devices the "brand" is Canonical, and for those devices you can get an assertion signed and with it log into any number of devices you want. That procedure may be done over USB storage, for example. Just insert a USB key into the device and your user credentials will be setup, even if it's completely offline. Again, that only works once on the device. If you lose the keys the device will need to be factory-reset.
- dserodio 8y ago
  Great explanation, thanks

j45 8y ago

I find this troubling as well. Reminds me of having to log in for mysql.

mbell 8y ago

It seems like Docker is in a really awkward place as a company. Their strategy was clearly to get everyone on the container hyper train then monetize by selling the production orchestration / runtime. But Kubernetes happened and GCP / AWS have rolled out competition in all the other supporting system needed; container registries, build pipelines, etc. What is the actual pitch for Docker EE now? Their marketing is pushing hard on 'security', but otherwise it seems like they are just selling a pretty UI for K8s. I don't see that being enough to support a company that has taken 250M in funding.

dan_quixote 8y ago
The k8s community is moving full steam ahead toward replacing docker containers with OCI-compliant cri-o/podman. Docker had a good run with a great idea, but it doesn’t make sense to leave all of this vendor-agnostic tooling reliant on Docker (the company).
- radus 8y ago
  What about a docker-compose alternative?
  - mbell 8y ago
    https://github.com/kubernetes/kompose https://github.com/kubernetes/kompose or https://github.com/helm/helm https://github.com/helm/helm or keep using docker's dev client, it can target a locally running k8s now.
- rattray 8y ago
  Interesting, where can we learn more about this? (eg; cri-o, podman, I saw rkt mentioned elsewhere)
  - dan_quixote 8y ago
    This is a post explaining how the k8s community got to the current state: https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-clarity-342b62172dc3 https://medium.com/cri-o/container-runtimes-clarity-342b6217... And here’s a little info on why we’re using cri-o at SUSE: https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-caas-platform-3/ https://www.suse.com/c/cri-o-container-runtime-on-suse-caas-...

gnu8 8y ago

Sorry, I have store fatigue and I don't need another one.

artursapek 8y ago

I noticed this today! Thankfully I was able to dig up their instructions for Ubuntu installation which just depend on apt, and they still worked fine. You can practically hear the Docker devs fighting with PMs/business guys about this one.

gsich 8y ago

"user experience", what a lame excuse.

masterleep 8y ago

Just use systemd-nspawn.

WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago

Don't worry guys, I created a PR to fix it. This is an open source project so I'm sure this will be priority one as soon as the Docker project admins get online (https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/pull/7242)

m_eiman 8y ago
Fixing a PR problem with a PR, neat.

cdoxsey 8y ago

Docker is such a mess. As a tool for building containers its cumbersome, has bizarre and frustrating limitations and has issues that haven’t been addressed in years. You can’t use semver for tags, it eats up all your disk space and you have to manually GC it, etc… Multi-build support is basically useless and invariably you end up writing convoluted bash scripts to get the thing to work. Caching is terrible pretty much across the board. How many petabytes of data are wasted every day re-syncing apt-get? As a runtime engine its basically dead for production use. If you ever try to use it you’ll quickly discover that it has tons of problems. It locks up, orphans processes, stops responding to commands, forgets about containers, etc. And its not safe to run arbitrary containers. You’d be surprised by how many companies using Kubernetes gave up using docker a long time ago. Please save yourself a lot of heartache and just use containerd. As a concept, containers never really lived up to their potential. "A Docker container image is a lightweight, standalone, executable package of software that includes everything needed to run an application." As long as that application runs in linux. As a company Docker is a failure. All their cloud stuff is clunky, poorly thought out and at this point largely irrelevent. I'll be surprised if it will last 5 years. Kubernetes won. Those cute, cuddly characters and the Docker name are basically all they have going for them, and all these things, the Moby rename, the requiring login to download, etc... are the death throes of a dying company. Docker is the next jQuery. People don't realize just how easy all this stuff will be to replace. Google already did it. Like 5 times. (gVisor, jib, kaniko, ...) It was probably some intern's side project. Microsoft should just get it over with and acquire the company. It would be the perfect cherry on top to their Github cake.

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notamy 8y ago
> You’d be surprised by how many companies using Kubernetes gave up using docker a long time ago. What are they using instead? cri-o? rkt?
- cdoxsey 8y ago
  At Datadog we are using containerd. We've heard of other companies using cri-o. There's also a lot of mixed deployments of container vs native out there. It seems Kubernetes is popular but not many companies with a large number of servers are willing to bet the farm on it, so they may only run a subset of their services with it (stateless, or test environments) You can use Docker, just be ready to account for the instability. With proper detection and strategies to evict bad nodes you can build a reliable platform out of it. (though for stateful things you may end up with a real mess on your hands) Weve seen issues with cointainerd too, but at least so far it seems more stable. Basically every piece of docker is being replaced. The runtime (containerd, crio), the tools to build containers (google has several), the server to host images (ecr, gcr, etc)... it's weird to call it docker when none of the components actually use docker anymore. The gui and installer is nice for local development, so I guess it has that going for it.

zatkin 8y ago

Oracle recently did this for the Oracle Client libraries too. Shame.

_zachs 8y ago

Congratulations Docker, the only "user experience" this has enhanced is making me start to learn about cri-o.

kolderman 8y ago

Did someone say coughserverlesscough?

yeukhon 8y ago

This feels like Oracle.

tannhaeuser 8y ago

Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our time on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels. Or have developers interested in containers spend their efforts on standardized rather than Linux-only solutions. Docker has IMHO never made any sense for the use cases people seem to have in mind, as it really doesn't isolate you from anything (neither from the host O/S nor Docker itself). Docker, Inc. touting the security aspect doesn't hold merit given Docker must be run as root, and containers can't use host system permissions etc.

majewsky 8y ago
> Good. Maybe we can get back to writing software, rather than spending our time on pointless deployment scripting, tools, and reiventing wheels. Not sure what you're getting at here. Since our team switched to Docker/Kubernetes, I've spent considerably less time on pointless deployment scripting and reinventing wheels.

test6554 8y ago

If money is an issue, perhaps docker should make container authors host their own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable in dockerhub.

l33th4x0r2 8y ago
I don't think lowering their cost base is what investors want...
hashrate 8y ago
> host their own stuff and just make them searchable/discoverable You aware that hosting probably represent 1% of Docker spending at the moment ? You aware that Docker has 100+ employees based in SF where the average salary is 120K$/Year ? And here I'm being gentle not to include the management[0] which in general has salary closer to 300K than 120K [0] https://www.docker.com/company https://www.docker.com/company
- test6554 8y ago
  I wasn't aware. Thanks!

arminiusreturns 8y ago

As a sysadmin I'm so glad I skipped the docker craze and just dug into kvm/qemu/proxmox/lxc more.

T-Winsnes 8y ago

Still available through their doco https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-mac/install/ https://docs.docker.com/v17.12/docker-for-mac/install/

mirimir 8y ago

So hey, https://anonbox.net/ https://anonbox.net/ works fine.

yuiiug 8y ago

I know about cri-o for the server, but are there any good alternatives for local development?

ngngngng 8y ago

Docker is too heavy for golang, which is all I use scaled horizontally anymore. I can easily create a binary for any operating system. With dep (and even more so vgo) reproducible builds just really aren't a problem with golang. But when i've got a virtually unlimited number of green threads I can spin up with goroutines, why do I need to containerize to scale horizontally?

dberg 8y ago
Have you checked out alpine ? Very lightweight image.
- hoschicz 8y ago
  Since Go programs are statically linked, is even something like Alpine required? Isn't it possible to just build the Go binary from the "scratch" image? Maybe throw in glibc in there

hardwaresofton 8y ago

Can anyone who works inside PR for software-developer facing companies like Docker explain how a decision like this could make it past vetting? Any software developer (who isn't drunk on the kool aid?) could tell you that this would result in loss of good will.

majewsky 8y ago
Companies do not consist of 100% software developers.

sjellis 8y ago

Buildah seems to be becoming a replacement for Docker on the desktop: https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah https://github.com/projectatomic/buildah Pure CLI tool that does not run a daemon, from Red Hat, recently hit version 1. Unfortunately, I don't think that macOS is supported yet.

spacenick88 8y ago
I really want to like this and conceptually the idea of being a simple command is appealing. That said, I feel like writing a shell script and especially their example is really really off putting. For one the flexibility it offers means people are going to use that flexibility to do weird stuff, second a shell script far too easily captures dependencies to it's environment again making things non-reproducible. If you allow people to put local paths, dependencies on local weirdnesses and so on in their build scripts they will, I've seen it happen time and again.

dabockster 8y ago

Stuff like this is why mirrors are a thing.

blt 8y ago

torrents would be a good way to deal with this.

hashrate 8y ago

This is pretty much a reality check. Like any other business , Open Source needs funding. It's well know Docker is far from being profitable. This is somewhat represents how ultimately money always win on open source one way or another.

majewsky 8y ago
> Like any other business, Open Source needs funding. That's a valid comment... for a different discussion. The actual issue here is that Docker's business model is falling apart, with alternative container runtimes (cri-o, rkt, etc.) and alternative orchestrators (mostly k8s) eating their lunch. And all of those are open source too.

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[deleted]

Kiro 8y ago

This issue was opened in the docs repo and it was closed in that context, which was correct (the docs do not need to change as for now). The docs do not dictate how you download Docker and joaofnfernandes is only responsible for the docs as far as I can tell.

darth_mastah 8y ago

So you have to log in to Docker Store on Windows and on Mac. I sort of get the frustration. Using one of these systems for development is a painful experience on its own, no need to make it more miserable.

type0 8y ago

This ship is sinking and all the rats has already left

acorkery 8y ago

Bit of a cliché, but nothing is free. You are choosing to use technology provided by a for-profit company. Community Edition does not mean it's owned by the community. It's absolutely irritating to have to create an account and login when you just want to try something, but if you're invested in a technology and the company that provides it (at no direct monetary cost to you), I don't think it's worth getting stroppy about. Plenty of other more sinister and cynical things happening in tech right now to get riled about

Ra1d3n 8y ago

Thank god for GDPR.

phobosdeimos 8y ago

"Uhuh. You mean, force people to login with an email so we can target them with an ad campaign so we make money??" Good luck with I'm behind 1000 spam filters.

Legogris 8y ago

Correct me if I am wrong, but all components of Docker CE are open source and one could therefore still download and build the binaries themselves, right? I really don't see the issue of requiring hoops to get precompiled binaries as long as there is a way to get and build the binaries yourself.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Annoying but not the end of the world IMHO. In any case, I have a dockerhub account so I can publish containers there; so I might as well use it. Similarly I have a Github account and am actually a paying customer as well. The bottom line is I have accounts left right and center for things that I depend on professionally. Some of these I even pay for but most of them I don't pay a penny. This is a closed source product distributed for free. They are well in their rights to charge money for it even. Given that and given how important this product is for my day to day routine (I run lots of docker stuff all the time), and given that docker has been contributing a lot of OSS code in this space, I think this is a relatively small and entirely fair price to pay. I don't agree with the sense of entitlement in this thread. Docker providing a free community edition of a product they've built that allows running docker on top of Mac/Windows is not charity but a means for them to up-sell their commercial solutions. That's the only reason it exists. I'm grateful that it exists and I hope that they can make this work so I can continue to depend on this. An alternative is getting a linux laptop and running pure open source versions of whatever containerization you require.

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olafure 8y ago

There's an alternative, without the docker overhead, https://coreos.com/rkt/ https://coreos.com/rkt/

aurelien 8y ago

That is for your security!

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago

I'm very curious how this develops. It was already a bit strange to notice that one of the several container technologies available got significantly more visibility thanks to a smart marketing team and targeting Mac and Windows users. Personally, I'm using LXC and related technologies and see no benefit in switching to Docker whatsoever. Eventually most people run their containers on Linux anyway, and the LXC's way of doing things seems very native and natural in this environment.

barrystaes 8y ago

This one comment sums up the changes nicely: https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414553120 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue... A download went from 5 steps to 12 steps, to improve the Docker experience? The irony is the resulting statistics might actually say less people had a negative experience with docker, now they dont even download and try it...

yAnonymous 8y ago
No, the improvement comes from reversing the change. Turn things to shit, then take credit for improving them. Really smart move by the UX team.

codedokode 8y ago

We decided to spend a minute of your time for registration to improve your experience (and another minute that it will take to unsubscribe from spam later). But I think it's only fair. Those developers who dislike this probably do the same to their users.

bandrami 8y ago

guix environment --container [ list of packages ] -- command I haven't looked back since they added that in the last version. Configurable network namespace sharing or isolation, configurable fs namespace sharing or isolation, configurable environment variables within the container, and the option to "pack" the entire thing as a tar.gz to deploy.

bborud 8y ago

Well, I suppose it is time to realise that Docker has perhaps become a bit too dominant and that the ecosystems of which it is a part, might benefit from there being more alternatives.

Traubenfuchs 8y ago

It is very sad to see the official reasoning to be "to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward". This is a blatant politician-talk-tier lie.

bcoughlan 8y ago

It's not a good move, but I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github, calling the developers jerks etc. Our company has never paid Docker for anything, but we've benefited greatly from having Docker images be the output of our backend build jobs. I never have to dig into classpath errors from conflicting JARs any more, or deal with out of date JDKs living on QA and production machines. I can deploy a dependent service that I know nothing about without digging through code and documentation. Yes it has its issues but the positives far outweigh the negatives. I understand that it's a frustrating move and the wrong path to go to for monetization, but can we also recognize that it's a company has done a lot for the community and is struggling to secure its future, instead of calling them names?

michaelt 8y ago
I don't understand the vitriol expressed on Github Some people see a change making the UX worse promoted as a change that improves the UX, and feel it's an honest mistake that will be corrected by straightforward, constructive feedback. Other people see the same thing and think the dishonesty is intentional. Docker would hardly be the first company to do this [1] - but some people may have seen Docker as 'not like those other companies' and be disappointed to discover they are. [1] http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09 http://dilbert.com/strip/1998-08-09
- troydavis 8y ago
  Your summary doesn’t line up with the linked-to GitHub issue. “Straightforward, constructive” feedback was provided by the issue creator and was seemingly ignored.
dsign 8y ago
Cheers to that. We recently had to support a customer stuck in a Linux distro from a few years ago... this was an older guy that like how things were made back in the day and who hasn't upgraded his system because nobody uses good'ol init scripts anymore in Linux... We had to spend the best part of a week creating by hand a binary of our product that could run in his distro, including versions of system libraries with critical security patches. Docker the company and docker the tooling may have issues, but those Docker images are a life-saver at times.

2T1Qka0rEiPr 8y ago

I can understand why people hate this, but this comment did make me laugh: > Do you want to be Oracle? Because this is how you become Oracle. -1 Revenue: "US$39.83 billion (2018)" - I can see a few reasons why they might hah

vectorEQ 8y ago

https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ <--- you're welcome. if u don't need some producer who obviously prefers money over user happiness or quality. just use true open source things. ultimatley that's the attitude that leads to them seling your information or maybe worse...(wether they do it NOW or not is irrelevant) docker is your infra... nice spot for backdoor once it closes itself further from public..., wether they are doing it NOW or not, i'd look for another road to this rome you seek

amelius 8y ago

Somebody should create a mirror site.

appleflaxen 8y ago

The interesting part to me: this has been open since June 20. Anyone know why it just captured the collective attention of HN readers?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

chrisper 8y ago

Quite hilarious that this guy's motto is "I help high-tech companies cross the chasm by making their products easier to use and learn" http://www.joaofn.com/about/ http://www.joaofn.com/about/ He is doing quite the opposite

amouat 8y ago
I think we should avoid commenting about the dev's background. It was clearly a company decision and the discussion should be at that level.
- chrisper 8y ago
  He isn't even a developer. He just documents stuff, if I understand that correctly and makes it sound like he is a messias.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago

I have never installed Docker through any route other than a Linux distribution's package manager. Why would anyone use the download in the first place?

aneutron 8y ago
Mac and Windows
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Developers who use those deserve what they get.
deadbunny 8y ago
Because this is about Windows/MacOS downloads.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Was it really necessary for you to say the same thing aneutron, the only other reply, said an hour ago?
  - deadbunny 8y ago
    I had the tab open for a while so didn't see their reply. So no, not "necessary" just accidental. Sorry to have cause you such mental anguish by answering your question which would have been answered if you had read any of the thread or the linked GH issue.

madmax96 8y ago

I get it. I hate login-walls too. The level of toxicity in the github issue's conversation is so astounding that I must say something. People on the internet are people. I hope that we don't talk to people in "real life" the same as we do when we make toxic comments online. Complain, write letters/emails to Docker, make your opinion heard, etc. But remember that you are dealing with a fellow human-being, who has their own life and own emotions. Treat them with the same respect you would like to be shown when people are unhappy with you. The comments in that github issue reflect very poorly on us as a professional community to the point that I'm embarrassed.

deleted 8y ago
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warewolff 8y ago
I agree a 100%. It really is annoying to need to be able to login to download the binaries and being dishonest with the user base is not a good approach in order to build great company-customer relations. But all this hate and frustration being channeled on the docker team/this issue is like people just bandwagoning on a issue where somebody addressed a issue in a respectful manner and they see it as an invitation to just shit on people, like "oh they fucked up, lets give em hell until the people responsible for this curse the day they were born". It is a really poor behaviour. I don't believe any of them haters would approach people like this when being confronted with them face to face.
blub 8y ago
Pulling this kind of crap on customers also reflects poorly on us as a professional community. Which other profession steals so much personal data from others through manipulation and trickery? So all in all it looks like we're all part of a low standars professional community that should be perpetually embarrassed of itself.
- user5994461 8y ago
  As a professional, you should realize that you are not a customer of Docker, you are a user that provides them no value. They have little revenues and an over valuation to justify, while being attacked from all sides by competitors (Google, AWS, RedHat, Pivotal). Docker is in a bad position and they are desperate.

m-p-3 8y ago

we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward The login-wall is not a great start :/

SEJeff 8y ago

If you don't want to use your email to download docker, use bugmenot: http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com http://bugmenot.com/view/store.docker.com

msl09 8y ago

Docker is my perfect example of a OSS being poisoned by excessive money. OSS needs money to survive but too much of it (a too heavy burden to turn a profit) can poison it leading to significant issues being ignored because either the paying customers are not affected or because the issue is an integral part of the business model. I wished someone were able to fork docker and strip off all of the extra fluff (mainly service stuff) but I don't think anyone without deep pockets can support such massively complex software.

deleted 8y ago

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jpic 8y ago

I'm really sorry for the proprietary OS users, that's really a shame that they have to give their email to docker inc. now, if they haven't already (docker hub anyone ?), everytime they install docker on a machine (once per install ?), all this crying its makes mes wanna cry :'(

ManoMarks 8y ago

Hi I head up Docker Developer Relations. There are plenty of ways to get Docker CE without logging Docker Store. See my comment on GitHub for more details. https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issuecomment-414758273 https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910#issue...

hu3 8y ago
As someone pointed out in the Github issue, Docker Toolbox is legacy. I'm not sure how I feel about recommending outdated software to Mac and Windows. It's also slower and not the default way to get Docker.
techntoke 8y ago
You missed the mark ManoMarks.

parliament32 8y ago

This is probably the straw that broke the camel's back for Docker. Not that anyone expected it to stick around for that long anyway, they've had a terrible history of failure and poor design choices.

schlotzisk 8y ago

You can download it here --> https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-windows/install/#download-docker-for-windows https://docs.docker.com/v17.09/docker-for-windows/install/#d...

owaislone 8y ago

Kubernetes will eventually just kill docker. It's the best way to run docker in the cloud right now and keeps getting better. Plus it abstracts docker with pods. Better support for OCI/Rkt and docker will just die.

jpic 8y ago

If you care about free software, why not run a free OS ? just wondering ...

sahoo 8y ago

Have fun. https://download.docker.com/ https://download.docker.com/

tempodox 8y ago

> ...we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. Such obvious run-of-the-mill marketing BS. Moving forward, I'll give Docker a wide berth.