42 ms·

I am an Uber survivor

• late2part 10y ago
  Seems to me there are 4 issues here: 1. Racism. Not okay. Fire him. 2. Sexist behavior Not okay. Warn and then fire him. 3. Working people hard That's okay. I was made to work hard. Long days no breaks hard deadlines. That's the world we live in. 4. How this affected her I'm sorry she went through this and it's not okay. How she chooses to feel and deal with this are under her control. She shouldn't have perpetuated her pain by staying in the situation.
  • muglug 10y ago
    > How she chooses to feel and deal with this are under her control. She shouldn't have perpetuated her pain by staying in the situation. Can you understand how hard it is for someone to leave a job after a short amount of time, knowing that every future employer will see that on your resumé?
    • late2part 10y ago
      Yes. Because I've done it. And you tell people it wasn't a good fit. And if it's uber you tell them it's because uber is a bunch of jerks.
      • muglug 10y ago
        Far easier when you're a 40-something male engineer with a large resumé than a relatively green female engineer who will already contend with some people who think she's not a culture fit, based solely on gender.
  • logfromblammo 10y ago
    > 3. Working people hard That's okay. I was made to work hard. Long days no breaks hard deadlines. That's the world we live in. No, it's not okay. But this one is not the company's problem; it's on the union, or lack thereof.
  • morvita 10y ago
    1,2. Why is racism considered a fireable offense, but sexism they should get a warning first? Either give them a warning on both or fire on both. 3. I think many would argue that we shouldn't have to live in a world where long days with no breaks is the accepted standard. I've worked that way, 10 hour days, 6-7 days a week, it's not sustainable and leads to burnout, poor quality work, and grumpy employees.
    • late2part 10y ago
      I think you are right on the first part. I don't view racism and sexism as exactly the same type of thing. Racism is just evil, and sexism is sometimes just ignorance (he hits on her and doesn't know it's not wanted). But, same ignorance could be argued for racism, even though I think it's different. I dont think uber wants or cares for my opinion, but if it's beyond the pale, in both case, fire on first offense. Else, one warning and then out. Your second paragraph suggests an ideal that we should aspire to but it's not the reality for startups and high growth industries. If we seek out this part of this industry we shouldn't bellyache about the hours.
  • bbcbasic 10y ago
    s/world/city/
• rublev 10y ago
  .
  • throewai 10y ago
    This post is the most trite and obvious fraud. HN commenters displaying some Breitbart and T_D level confirmation bias here.
    • rublev 10y ago
      True, my bad.
• spraak 10y ago
  Very sad that I expected more stories like Susan's to come out.
  • aylmao 10y ago
    I know you refer to the fact these stories happened; yes, very sad indeed. But I'm happy all these stories are coming out. Definitely glad these women have had the courage to share them, hopefully enough public pressure can be built up to steer in the direction of change.
    • spraak 10y ago
      Good point, yes! I definitely prefer their stories to be shared than hidden.
• ckdarby 10y ago
  I don't believe HN should be front paging anonymous content without some proof of having worked at Uber.
  • grzm 10y ago
    If you feel a submission is inappropriate for HN, please flag it.
  • wyldfire 10y ago
    The front pageness is a function of the credibility and interestingness of the articles posted. HN is not journalism, it's a water cooler. There's some rules for decorum but little to no editorial function.
    • aylmao 10y ago
      > The front pageness is a function of the credibility and interestingness of the articles posted. did you mean to say "is not"?
      • wyldfire 10y ago
        No, I meant "is". Though, to clarify, I meant credibility-in-the-eye-of-the-upvoter.
        • aylmao 10y ago
          Oh, ok. Gotcha.
  • searchfaster 10y ago
    It is totally understandable why she chose to be anonymous. I would let the readers decide, if they find any content shared on HN useful or not.
  • vkou 10y ago
    So, people should only bring up horror stories about their workplaces if they also expose themselves to legal or extra-legal retaliation?
• cdelsolar 10y ago
  this is awful.
• jijojv 10y ago
  horrific - how can this really be happening in 2016 ?
  • unityByFreedom 10y ago
    I have great news for you! It's not. It's 2017
    • grzm 10y ago
      Your parent may be referring to the events described that happened prior to 2017.
      • unityByFreedom 10y ago
        sigh just trying to lighten the mood with a joke. -2 for that. Thanks HN. He did use the present tense :-P serious comment: I think it's great these stories are getting out. Now women know what they will face at Uber. And perhaps someone will have the strength to sue them for discrimination.
        • grzm 10y ago
          Yeah, this can be a pretty serious crowd (which I actually think is a strength of HN, as humor can be so easily misinterpreted on Internet forums). You've likely noticed how contentious and combative this topic has been in particular. A lot of people seem to be looking for any excuse to undercut another's comments. While that wasn't your intent, the lack of good faith that some people grant others can lead to unfortunate behavior. That's why I commented, by the way: to point out you may be misunderstanding your parent, not assuming you were acting in bad faith. Anyway, I hope you have a better day :) Be well.
          • unityByFreedom 10y ago
            > That's why I commented, by the way: to point out you may be misunderstanding your parent, not assuming you were acting in bad faith. > Anyway, I hope you have a better day :) Be well. Thanks, you too! =)
• throewai 10y ago
  My opinion is that this anonymous post lacks credibility and the author is most likely LARPing. Is it really so offensive to have a skeptical view? > It was normal for guys to refer to other guys as fags when they didn’t participate in private parties where sex and drugs were involved. It was normal for guys to openly refer to attractive female colleagues as sluts when they refused to go out with them.
  • rodgerd 10y ago
    Says the three minute old throwaway account.
    • idiot_stick 10y ago
      >Says the three minute old throwaway account. Are you trying to be ironic by dismissing the critic's anonymity while accepting the author's?
      • hwillis 10y ago
        Pointing out hypocrisy is not hypocritical. In criticizing anonymously, the commenter is acknowledging that there are reasons to remain anonymous. Pointing out that the account is new is not meant to invalidate it's commentary. It is meant to demonstrate that it is self-contradicting.
      • vkou 10y ago
        The author just bared an intensely personal and traumatic experience, that historically, has served as an open door to abuse, doxing, not to mention legal threats and discrimination from future employment, when the post is inevitably connected to her identity. The three-minute old account making a comment from the peanut gallery did nothing of the sort. The two are not at all equivalent.
  • minimaxir 10y ago
    Odd choice for evidence of fabrication, as that quote echoes Susan Fowler's original post.
• Grue3 10y ago
  There's really no reason not to name Mike #2. If this is real, he already knows who you are.
  • vinceguidry 10y ago
    There's enough information given in the story that virtually anybody who worked at Uber can name the people involved. Public naming and shaming is understandably desired, but unnecessary. It invites legal action.
    • sgustard 10y ago
      I wouldn't call it "unnecessary." Eventually Mike will quit or get fired, then repeat this behavior at another company.
      • kelukelugames 10y ago
        This plus 1000. Look what happened with Amit Singhal. http://www.recode.net/2017/2/27/14745360/amit-singhal-google-uber http://www.recode.net/2017/2/27/14745360/amit-singhal-google...
  • jonathanjaeger 10y ago
    The author could be afraid of lawsuits (even if it is true what she writes, that doesn't mean someone can't sue for libel/defamation/retaliate in some fashion).
  • ubernostrum 10y ago
    So, just coming forward about these stories is impressive in itself. But both of the recent Uber stories have gone well beyond that: they're coming from people who had horrific experiences at the company and have not only worked up the courage to talk publicly about it, but have put together solid strategies for deflecting a lot of the scummy ways companies, and our society, would normally come after them. To wit: Uber is a large company with fantastically deep pockets, a gaggle of high-powered lawyers, access to a strong media/PR machine, and a lot of glamour/adoration in the Silicon Valley/startup culture. But those strengths are being carefully neutered! There's Susan Fowler's approach, which is first and foremost to make sure everybody knows she has documentation to back up her claims. That's a very clear message to Uber that 1) they never ever want to be in a discovery situation where she could start issuing subpoenas, since she's let them know that she knows where to get the damaging documents they don't want coming out, and 2) leaves them guessing just how much documentation she has, and so unsure of how to publicly reply: if they try to downplay the incidents she describes, or attack her record, they don't know whether she might produce proof that they're lying about it. Then there's the approach here, which is detailed enough that the people it targets inside Uber certainly know who the author is and who she's writing about. But it does not divulge any identities with certainty to the public at large, which carries some similar "I left it at this level of detail, but maybe I could divulge a lot more if you provoked me" threat, but also makes it very difficult for Uber to attack her personally. To do so they'd have to out her and details of her employment record, and depending on the details that might put them obviously and publicly on the wrong side of a bunch of employment-related law as well as make them look like bullies. I would barely be able to function, and maybe just wouldn't be able to, after some of the things that have been described as happening at Uber. I cannot imagine being able to not only call them out publicly, but also put together such a good strategy for doing so, and I have immense respect for Susan and "Amy" for managing it.
• actuallyalys 10y ago
  It comes as no surprise to me that a company as cavalier toward local laws and its drivers as Uber is would also mistreat its other workers. On the off-chance Amy or Susan is reading this, thanks for sharing your stories.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Yet again the nerds have become the bullies.
  • RubenSandwich 10y ago
    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." -John Dalberg-Acton. It saddens me how much I have seen that quote play out in my life...
    • M_Grey 10y ago
      It's honestly part of such a good quote, I feel compelled to post the rest. "I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way against holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is the point at which the negation of Catholicism and the negation of Liberalism meet and keep high festival, and the end learns to justify the means. You would hang a man of no position, like Ravaillac; but if what one hears is true, then Elizabeth asked the gaoler to murder Mary, and William III ordered his Scots minister to extirpate a clan. Here are the greater names coupled with the greater crimes. You would spare these criminals, for some mysterious reason. I would hang them, higher than Haman, for reasons of quite obvious justice; still more, still higher, for the sake of historical science." How right has he been proven, before and after his time? From athletes to politicians, from Steve Jobs to Winston Churchill.
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  • dboreham 10y ago
    Not sure I understand this. This guy doesn't sound like a nerd at all. More like a BSD.
• vondur 10y ago
  Wow, while I expected more stories to surface, this one seems to be a whole different level. But then again, Uber seems to be a really dysfunctional company.
• joezydeco 10y ago
  "In essence, the HR department blackmailed me that if I make noise, I’d be fired. I was distraught by the HR department’s response especially considering that most of the HR folks I dealt with were women." Say it over and over, say it loud, and say it to every single person entering the US workforce from day one: H/R ACTS AND WILL ALWAYS ACT IN THE COMPANY'S BEST INTERESTS. NOT YOURS. Amy's situation was grave, and kudos to her for getting out. But everyone should read these stories and burn this line into their heads permanently.
  • neom 10y ago
    Business != Company, company (made up of orgs) is a component of a business. If someone in my HR group does not act in the best interests of the business AND the company (and usually putting the company before the business is the right thing to do) they would lose their job quite quickly. My obligation as a CEO is to my shareholders, and my shareholders know that putting my people in front of returns will always result in better returns. It's pretty clear cut, you're nothing without your people, and that's that.
  • MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
    The genius of labeling it "human resources" just struck me. As an employee (and human) it seems reasonable to interpret it as "resources for humans" and thus assume it would be there to help. But its true meaning, to execs/stakeholders/corporate persons, is "[the department which manages the] human resources".
    • jacobolus 10y ago
      This is not really an obscure secret. Wikipedia: “Human resources are the people who make up the workforce of an organization, business sector, or economy. [...] A human-resources department (HR department) of an organization performs human resource management, overseeing various aspects of employment, such as compliance with labour law and employment standards, administration of employee benefits, and some aspects of recruitment and dismissal.”
      • 10y ago
• huac 10y ago
  This is one of the most heavily flagged submissions I've seen in a while - hit #2 with 70 points, and now is at #6 with 174 points in 40 min, while the new #2 is 124 points in 2 hours.
  • btilly 10y ago
    I'm one of the flaggers. This is an entirely anonymous complaint with no particular reason why anyone would believe it. A lot of it read to me as too perfect. Too designed to hit all of the right buttons to generate outrage. I won't deny that it could be true. But I'd also give that possibility under even odds. And if stories like this are true, then we'll likely have enough opportunity to learn that later to give this version undue attention.
    • Kluny 10y ago
      Agreed. Way too much vitriol and the details are too perfect to be believable. I'm flagging as well.
    • geofft 10y ago
      I don't think that's an appropriate use of flag: > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think a story is spam or off-topic, flag it by clicking on its 'flag' link. If you think a comment is egregious, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. The story is not spam, not off-topic, and has a good chance of being non-egregious. It's certainly true it could be wrong, but that's very different. (Maybe I'm wrong about appropriate use of flagging? I'd concede that it's fair for you to downvote it, but I suspect HN has disabled downvotes on stories for a reason, and using flagging as a pseudo-downvote seems wrong.)
      • ryandrake 10y ago
        It might not technically break any HN rules, but it's kind of saddening to see what's so far an anonymous accusation it make it so deep into the front page. Combined with the other recent bad press Uber's getting, it's admittedly not looking good for them, but on the other hand any of us _could_ have signed up for Medium and published an article like this.
• harryh 10y ago
  Why would someone write an anonymous blog post but then declare that they are: 1) A woman in her late 20s 2) Who used to work at Uber in Engineering working on database and networking scalability 3) Went to a top private college 4) has a Masters in Information Systems 5) previous to Uber worked as a Data Analyst in a tech company in the Midwest and left when it was acquired by a Chinese firm 6) Is 5 foot 7 Caucasian with dark hair
  • mjolk 10y ago
    Details sell the lie. But if I'm wrong, if this article is grounded in any reality, I hope the author of this piece speaks to an attorney.
  • Mitchhhs 10y ago
    Its one thing for the people who know her to know it was her, its another thing for the world. That is why.
    • dnautics 10y ago
      in fact it's maybe even better if her colleagues know it was her since that may empower them to start taking action against uber or start taking action the next time they see this shit happen.
  • bermanoid 10y ago
    Because it probably doesn't matter if ex-coworkers at Uber figure out who it is. She just doesn't want this story attached to her real name when people Google her. It's also possible that some of that information is slightly twisted, to throw people off.
    • fullshark 10y ago
      Or maybe she wants people at Uber to know who she is, but not the general public.
  • alphonsegaston 10y ago
• idiot_stick 10y ago
  We live in a world of fake news, but anyone who questions an anonymous blog post during a media hype-cycle surrounding Uber's sexual harassment allegations is flagged? It's important to be more diligent in these times, not less.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
• primitivesuave 10y ago
  It's unfortunate that the Silicon Valley work culture is being tarnished by companies like Uber. There are many companies that respect women and have HR departments that actually fulfill the purpose of being helpful Resources to Humans. I hope the anti-Uber sentiment grows so other companies can learn from this example. I'm glad the author is sharing her story.
  • the-dude 10y ago
    You have got that backwards dude: the Resources are the Humans.
    • abakker 10y ago
      until the resources are self-driving cars?
    • jlewis7272 10y ago
      The resources are the humans and the departments responsibility is to keep the company from being sued.
  • iamcasen 10y ago
    I've experienced this at just about every single non-startup that I've worked for. Basically, once the company is big enough that you don't know everyone who works there, the evil actors and back stabbers emerge. Especially when a company is growing rapidly, you go from being a human in the eyes of others, to a performance report -- some numbers on paper. My new strategy? Leave any company that gets bigger than 300 people or so. It's worked so far!
• aresant 10y ago
  It would be remarkably easy for the author to validate the authenticity of her post by adding a picture of a pay-stub with blacked out identifying information / names / amounts. Or alternatively publish the story with a news agency as a protected source under a pseudonym. Uber deserves what they have coming to them at the moment, but an anonymized post that fits perfectly into the Uber / sexism / hostile work place with no evidence should be treated as suspect.
• mjolk 10y ago
  > I am afraid to make my name public. Let’s call me Amy. For reasons only the #ubervictims know, let’s refer to the villain of this story as Mike#2. My default is "show me the evidence", but I believe Susan Fowler's account because she put her reputation on the line and I was willing to trust that she left, opposed to got fired, due to non-performance reasons based on being able to somewhat approximate/confirm her technical abilities. This submission is just anonymous accusations. Absurd, unrealistic-sounding accusations. If the culture at Uber was as rampantly ridiculous as described in this blogpost, men and women would be falling over themselves to tell their stories. > My paycheck is 18% less than my less qualified male colleagues. If this was true, and the anonymous writer, who claims to be a skilled data analyst, was able to make a case that this was due to gender and not ability, she should be telling this story to a lawyer, not a blog site.
  • tatterdemalion 10y ago
    You should put your reputation on the line when you make such vile comments. Your profile says you're the "technical founder on a bootstrapping startup," I want to make sure I never use your product, do business with your company, or take calls from your recruiters.
    • mjolk 10y ago
      Please tell me what is "vile" about saying "I believe Susan, but this blogpost strains credibility. If the author is being honest, I hope she speaks to an attorney".
      • jellicle 10y ago
        So what company do you work for?
        • chickenfries 10y ago
          Agreed, they should stand behind their words.
        • 10y ago
• Emc2fma 10y ago
  If this is true, then it's horrifying. I didn't agree with the crowd and delete Uber earlier for the protest stuff, but if this is true, then bye-bye Uber.
• ChicagoDave 10y ago
  Everyone needs to #deleteuber.
  • ChicagoDave 10y ago
    Until and unless they have clear internal changes that allow female and minority engineers to work in a positive, equal pay for equal work environment.
    • ChicagoDave 10y ago
      And just to add an endorsement, Accenture is a highly evolved technology firm. If you're looking to work somewhere that treats everyone equally and would never tolerate a Mike #2, give them a shot. I am not an employee, but have done several contract stints internally and they are simply the best workplace I've ever been around.
• 31reasons 10y ago
  It is very strange to me when I read these "Survivor" stories. I really can't relate to them not because I am a male and don't work in Silicon Valley but because I know I can and I have quit companies because I couldn't tolerate to work there. There is not fucking reason to keep suffering at a company for whatever reason. QUIT as soon as you feel unhappy let alone you come to a point where they "break" you. Are you kidding me? This is not North Korea. No one is forcing you to keep suffering. You are living in a goddam United State of America, and in a goddam Silicon Valley.
  • Jemmeh 10y ago
    Uber is huge, it's recognizable, it's got interesting problems. Susan Fowler even wrote a bestselling book related to some of her work there. You get to work with a lot of smart people. That's a lot of motivation to try to stay despite bad things happening. It's easy to say in hindsight how bad it was, but I'd say most people want to try to do a good job and will expect some problems that they will just "have to deal with" with any work environment. But in the end, they realized the bad outweighed the good and they -did- quit.
    • 31reasons 10y ago
      She wrote: "Even though I don’t work at Uber any longer, the damage that was done to me by Uber’s work environment ruined my spirit." you have stay until they kill your spirit just because Uber is a cool company? I can imagine people keep staying there if they have to feed their hungry children and pay mortgage in a very bad economy, but not just because its a "Cool" company.
      • Jemmeh 10y ago
        Like I said hindsight is also the issue here. It's easy to look back and say "Oh this is a bad company" but as it's happening it's easy to say "Oh this just happened once." or "Maybe it's me." or "Well Mike sucks, but I can deal with it, it's not that big of a deal, and there's a lot of benefits to staying like fulfilling work and being able to work with great minds. I've learned a lot from my other coworkers." or "Maybe I can change things, maybe things will get better." or "I can resolve this if I keep working with HR, it will be fixed soon." Not-Amy said it was exhilarating the first 2 months, if overly hard work. In a company of that size, I too would totally expect working with HR to be the fix, as it usually is. I mean do you quit your job the instant you have a shitty coworker? I too would try to resolve my issues first internally first. Because that usually works. When that didn't work, she quit and rightly called them out on being ridiculous.
• meerita 10y ago
  I question myself what would happen if she openly scream at his face with a nice: Why don't you go and f...
• comments_db 10y ago
  I'd like to thank these brave women for coming out and speaking against these evils. I rarely use Uber but more importantly, I'm not interviewing/working for Uber ever. p.s. I've had one opportunity in the past that I declined due to lower pay package. Current one seems good, but I'm not going forward. #nouber
  • bigiain 10y ago
    Don't "rarely" use it. Delete it. Now. Close your account, explaining to Uber why you've done so. Tweet/Facebook/Blog about having done so. Encourage all your friends, family, and coworkers to do the same - explaining exactly_ why you came to the decision. There really is no other self respecting choice. Sitting on the fence is condoning and enabling their behaviour.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
• ABCLAW 10y ago
  This thread is being carpet bombed at an increasingly quick rate by people concern trolling over the anonymous nature of this post. Additionally, another post has indicated that flagging behavior is off wrt this post. Reader beware.
• user5994461 10y ago
  > It was normal for me to get to work at 7 in the morning and leave late at night with only a thirty minute break in between. Yep, sounds like a bad place to work. Just a reminder that you can change jobs after 6 months in the valley, there is really no need to put up with that or wait for evil managers to make the place hell.
  • Cofike 10y ago
    Is that the acceptable minimum there? Like the two years in other areas?
    • user5994461 10y ago
      Yes. Especially when you are young.
      • Cofike 10y ago
        Hmmm, good to know thanks. I'm planning on heading over there for a while and I wasn't sure what the general attitude was towards employees leaving after 0.5/1/2 years.
  • ryandrake 10y ago
    It could take 6 months just to find a job, get through the recruiters, pass the whiteboard hazing, negotiate your package, and give notice. You're advocating starting your next job search your first day at the company.
    • djsumdog 10y ago
      I think you mean 1 ~ 2 months. In places like the Valley, Seattle, NYC .. the market is insane. You can pick up new jobs insanely fast.
      • ryandrake 10y ago
        I guess if you literally don't care what job you get, you could pick up a new one insanely fast. If you're targeting a handful of companies, or a better role than you have, I don't think the market is as rosy as you describe.
• chinathrow 10y ago
  "Travis is well known to protect high performing team leaders no matter how abusive they are towards their employees." Time for this Travis dude to resign, right?
• ogezi 10y ago
  Although this post is anonymous, Given what has come out recently about Uber, I'm strongly inclined to believe what she wrote. If Uber gets into any more trouble then the board and investors will have to do something because the bad press would be directly hurting their business. "Visibly angry, Mike#2 covered the microphone of the conference phone, he reached over to hold my hand tightly and told me to stop being a whiny little bitch." I can't imagine that because someone performs well at their jobs they'd be entitled to treat another person in such a demeaning manner.
• jordigh 10y ago
  > tried to trigger me Man, I really wish the internet hadn't decided that "trigger" means to anger or upset someone instead of the original meaning: provoke an anxiety or panic attack, like lighting firecrackers around war veterans. Not that what Uber is doing here to "Amy" isn't despicable. I'm just a little bothered by this relatively frivolous usage of the word "trigger" compared to the original purpose for using it: to highlight the experiences of those suffering from PTSD. PTSD can come in many forms, not just from wartime trauma. That's what "triggering" someone was about.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • CPLX 10y ago
    The word has lots of original meanings, many of which are quite disparate: "Large price increases could trigger demands for even larger wage increases." "His unpleasant remark triggered an argument that almost cost them their friendship" "Studies show that lack of water is the number one trigger of daytime fatigue for Americans." And so on. The usage you're citing is relatively recent jargon.
    • jordigh 10y ago
      Yes, that's exactly the problem: it's psychological jargon. People started using it in a jargon way to try to explain to others what PTSD is like. It was supposed to evoke compassion from people if they understood what triggering someone was. Instead it became a point of ridicule and mockery, "oh, I hurt your feelings? Did I trigger you, sweetheart?"
      • CPLX 10y ago
        Then I suppose it hasn't worked has it. Efforts to unilaterally redefine common words are not always successful. The word, when used as a verb, originally refers to a consequential relationship between two entities. According to Webster's something triggers when it "initiates, actuates or sets off" another thing. It appears her usage of the word is entirely and completely correct.
• CodeSheikh 10y ago
  A very sad read. Uber is in deep ethical trouble recently. Postpone that IPO plan guys. Would not it be better if HR of your company can be managed by some third party with 100% transparency?
  • bbarn 10y ago
    HR exists to protect companies, not employees. I don't know why people ever think going to HR is a good idea. Go to a lawyer, and let that lawyer go to HR.
  • bigiain 10y ago
    "Recently"? They're in deep public relations trouble recently. They've been ethically reprehensible for ever.
• josephCaruso 10y ago
  Sounds like someone who cant take the heat at the office. Grow a pair of balls Amy.
  • deleted 10y ago
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• jordigh 10y ago
  "There is no place for ethics in this business sweetheart. We are not a charity." OMFG I don't know if this is real or not, but given how Uber acts publicly about everything else (breaking the laws until governments are forced to amend the laws for Uber), I'm not surprised at all if this really is the overall attitude that they have for everything.
  • objectivistbrit 10y ago
    What especially annoys me about the Uber's management is that they believe themselves to be tough and no-nonsense - but in reality their behaviour is self-destructive. In other words, they are delusional and arrogant, not practical and reality-oriented. I have worked with people like this, though they were not as extreme as Uber. Travis Kalanick is often painted as an example of Ayn Rand's philosophy in action. [1] I don't doubt he follows his own shallow understanding of her ideas. Still, what she actually said was that it's in your rational self-interest to treat everyone you deal with fairly and trade value for value. I.e., you need ethics to succeed in business. John Allison of BB&T bank explains this principled approach better than I can [2]. He grew BB&T into a top 10 American bank, but he's the polar opposite of the stereotypical ruthless capitalist. If you screw people over, you may gain a short-term advantage, but you will inevitably fail in the long-run. Enron, Zynga, Groupon, and countless others have proved this. [1] https://pando.com/2012/10/24/travis-shrugged/ https://pando.com/2012/10/24/travis-shrugged/ [2] https://youtu.be/XPSGMbqEGU0?t=3m12s https://youtu.be/XPSGMbqEGU0?t=3m12s
  • gmarx 10y ago
    I can absolutely imagine an Uber manager speaking against ethics. I find it less plausible that a man in his 40s (my age group) refers to women as "sweetheart"...that seems like a thing someone in his 60s or 80s would say.
• cosinetau 10y ago
  You can delete your Uber account here: https://help.uber.com/h/24010fe7-7a67-4ee5-9938-c734000b144a https://help.uber.com/h/24010fe7-7a67-4ee5-9938-c734000b144a
  • sgterban 10y ago
    I get a 404 past the telephone/email entry page...
    • cosinetau 10y ago
      You can delete it from the app, as well. http://www.imore.com/how-to-delete-your-uber-account http://www.imore.com/how-to-delete-your-uber-account
  • iaml 10y ago
    After reading the original blog post I went to remove my account from the app. It asked to provide always on access to location and when I refused I couldn't even reach app's menu. I removed the app and used the same link you provided to remove my account, and mentioned my experience in the comment section. Now they sent me an email saying that my account is still active and they'll fix the app. The fact that process of closing my account is not a single button press and is taking me more than two days is beyond ridiculous and infuriating to be honest.
  • cocochanel 10y ago
    I have to state my reasons as a required field, AND wait for their "approval" to delete my own account? WTF is this shit.
• mi100hael 10y ago
  > I remember how the interviewers constantly tried to trigger me and insulted my intelligence to see if I break under pressure. What the fuck? I'd walk and never entertain an offer from a company that spent the interview insulting and provoking me. Who would be stoked to get an offer after an experience like that, much less accept it??
  • mirimir 10y ago
    I'm guessing that it was the glamor (Uber) and the money. And the challenge to beat those assholes at their game.
  • waisbrot 10y ago
    Famous example: http://www.businessinsider.com/hyman-rickover-interview-techniques-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/hyman-rickover-interview-tech... I don't know if it's actually useful when interviewing for a job with lives on the line, but I would guess that it creates an effect where the worse the interview experience is the happier you feel when you pass it.
    • Asooka 10y ago
      That's quite different from what Amy alleges happened to her at the interview.
  • cobookman 10y ago
    we kind of do that to our government officials no?
  • einars 10y ago
    Have you not been in a stressful technical interview situation? I have even heard of people doing this on purpose to weed out people who don't "perform under pressure".
    • mi100hael 10y ago
      In my mind there's a pretty clear difference between being challenged to justify your answers or go into deeper detail in a response and being intentionally insulted. I'm not thin skinned, but I'm not about to go to work for someone after they spend an hour or more calling me retarded.
• zuck9 10y ago
  Noob auestion: why "Mike#2" instead of simply "Mike"?
  • hbosch 10y ago
    To me, this detail seems like it was planted in the story to identify him specifically to the people who would "know" the signal. No idea how accurate that could be, though.
  • devopsproject 10y ago
    in case there are two "mike"s close to travis. 2 was hired after 1.
• leggomylibro 10y ago
  >Travis is well known to protect high performing team leaders no matter how abusive they are towards their employees. The HR team was known to be deftly[sic] afraid of Travis’s tendency to blame and ridicule the women and yell at HR whenever they went in with complaints of abuse. I heard about Travis personally congratulating Mike#2 for meeting strict deadlines months after I complained to HR about my abuse. This is why I'm skeptical of Uber's promise to investigate these allegations. When I heard that they had retained Eric Holder to investigate, my knee-jerk reaction was petty and cynical: "Great, retain a Chicago politician so you know you'll get the answer you're paying for." I was a little disappointed in myself at the time, but damn. With this company, I'm starting to think that impression might have been on the money.
  • bphogan 10y ago
    Exactly. It's not an independent investigation if you hire the investigators.
    • tyre 10y ago
      Who else could hire the investigators? It's a tricky problem, but ultimately you rely on the investigators caring more about their reputation than any one contract. If it gets out that firm X doesn't do objective reviews, then future companies in hot water won't hire them. The real challenge here is that these investigators are not independent. Eric Holder has done prior work on behalf of Uber, which means he could reasonably be biased towards the company.
      • PhantomGremlin 10y ago
        Who else could hire the investigators? The independent directors on a company's board should hire the investigators, who then should report back to those directors. Of course, in most startups, just like in many public companies, "independent" directors often aren't.
      • x0x0 10y ago
        The board, to decide if it's time to fire Travis.
• reledi 10y ago
  Amy, many people believe your story. But based on the flags this story is getting, many don't, at least not yet. Is there any way you can verify the authenticity of your story without losing your anonymity to the public? For example, would Susan be able to verify you as an ex-employee?
  • mirimir 10y ago
    > But based on the flags this story is getting, many don't [believe your story]. Or maybe they know her story all too well, and are angry to see it here. It's not like there's nobody from Uber on HN, I mean.
  • sounds 10y ago
    Amy, I believe your story because it is a second independent set of events that closely parallels Susan's story. You do not need to suffer more indignity by "being outed." Best of luck!
    • bigiain 10y ago
      I also believe your story Amy, and strongly suggest you think _very_ carefully before providing any sort pf "proof" to people who demand it, and view those people with intense suspicion. And reledi? Grow up man - give up on your "not all men" attitude - trying desperately to preserve your own dignity by failing to acknowledge that our industry treats women in ways with should shame all men, and that your "Holy Grail" tech employers like Uber are at the worst end of the bell curve - quite clearly run by reprehensible human beings from the top down - which filters all the way down the org chart. #deleteuber
      • kristofferR 10y ago
        What you think about "not all men" seems to dependent on whether you believe that the concept of original sin is immoral or not. I don't think I should feel shame because someone I had no control over, which incidentally had the same gender/skin color/nationality/ethnicity as me, did something wrong.
• aioprisan 10y ago
  Yet another example, with lots more that won't come out publicly, of just how toxic Uber's culture of growth at any cost and personal allegiances to Travis really is. The current internal investigation by insiders is a complete joke and only a class action lawsuit can start to right the wrong.
• user5994461 10y ago
  Let's forget about the drama for a minute and focus on running an actual business. It seems like a lot people are about to leave Uber and that's a business opportunity! Here's a list of Uber employees that can be recruited away with little to moderate effort: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=["1815218"] https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent...
  • jlewis7272 10y ago
    Not sure I would want to hire some of them, if they think this behavior is normal.
• austincheney 10y ago
  How insidiously toxic. I cannot think of a better or more perfectly descriptive word than toxic (at least this is the word we use in the military for environments less bad than that). > Therefore, it hurts me to say that despite my grit, I was not prepared to deal with the abuse and dehumanizing treatment I received from my supervisors and colleagues at Uber. Nobody should expect to be so prepared. Nobody volunteers to become the equivalent of a prisoner of war.
• zelias 10y ago
  Is it possible that the flaggers have been mobilized by Uber to shut down criticism?
  • ianhawes 10y ago
    Yes, you should assume any opposing viewpoint has been bought and paid for by the opposition. /s
• dba7dba 10y ago
  I would NEVER EVER approach HR department of corporate America for anything except for maybe asking for a tissue box at my desk. For those young enough to be thinking about approaching HR for issues as nefarious as this, well, now you know.
  • spcelzrd 10y ago
    I disagree with this. Most HR departments are functional and would take care of this problem. If you approach HR and they are unhelpful or place the blame on you, it's time to switch jobs, if possible.
• surrey-fringe 10y ago
  Nah, I like cheap rides. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
  • jressey 10y ago
    There's no such thing as a [cheap] lunch.
    • rtx 10y ago
      There is, its called trickle down.
      • memmcgee 10y ago
        Trickle down is BS. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/business/questions-raised-on-withdrawal-of-congressional-research-services-report-on-tax-rates.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/business/questions-raised-...
    • PhantomGremlin 10y ago
      There's no such thing as a [cheap] lunch. That's only true in the long term. In the short term the VCs giving Uber money (while Uber loses billions) are providing you with a [cheap] ride.
  • cosinetau 10y ago
    Cheap rides, sexism, and racism are a way of life, so it seems.
  • dang 10y ago
    Please don't post trollish comments to HN. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748108 and marked it off-topic.
• ohyes 10y ago
  Why aren't any of these shitbags getting named? This type of thing should ruin the guy's career. Fair or not I'm just going to assume Travis and anyone working for him is just like this disgusting mike#2 fellow.
  • geofft 10y ago
    This is why: https://twitter.com/susanthesquark/status/835193441814392833 https://twitter.com/susanthesquark/status/835193441814392833 Even assuming no malice, a rational economic actor faced with a career-ending allegation of bad behavior is interested in discrediting the accusation via all possible means, including discrediting, shaming, or embarrassing the accuser to force a retraction. And once you're assuming malice, they're especially interested in it.
    • ohyes 10y ago
      To my knowledge Susan didn't specifically name anyone? It seems like the smear campaign will happen regardless as long as the woman is alleging bad behavior like this. (Presumably because there is a cadre of psychopaths who think this sort of sexism should be allowed). So I don't see where the disincentive is for the abused to go nuclear first. (The abuser clearly has no compunction or ethics regarding escalating the situation, she's just a 'whiny little bitch' to him).
      • geofft 10y ago
        Smear campaigns depend on the sympathy of outsiders. I can't smear anyone by myself, I smear them by convincing other people to believe negative things about the person I'm smearing. If I can convince people to believe that someone accused me "falsely" by name and tried to ruin my career, I'm a lot more likely to gain the support of neutral outsiders against that person than if I go after someone who very carefully never named names.
  • ryanx435 10y ago
    innocent until proven guilty. this means that we have to hold 2 competing ideas at the same time until due process has been given, like shrodeinger's cat only for justice: 1) the woman is a victim and the "shitbag" should be punished appropriately. 2) the woman is lying and the "shitbag" is a victim of false accusations. until more details are known, it is possible that the accused is the victim. If this ends up being the correct situation, than having their names smeared in the public eye for crimes they did not commit is morally reprehensible.
• sidlls 10y ago
  Some of the responses to that article express a sentiment that women should fight back and not just silently take it. I wonder (doubt) if they've ever been abused. It's hard for someone who has been abused to come forward, let alone stand up to an abuser. Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing.
  • slurple 10y ago
    The best way for men to counter this in a toxic environment is to call it out when they see it. This sends a message that being outwardly dehumanizing and dismissive is not okay, and is not the accepted norm.
    • jlewis7272 10y ago
      Yes! This! Same with dealing with racists, call it out when you see it. And stand up with those who are brave enough to act on it.
    • komali2 10y ago
      I'm quite shocked that nobody stepped in when Mike2 called her a "whiny little bitch" in a meeting. She said the other men "were shocked" spare a couple that giggled. What the fuck kind of person stands around and does nothing when witnessing that kind of abuse in a professional environment?
      • munin 10y ago
        When you put a lot of your self-worth in your job and you know that the person you're about to call out can have you fired on the spot? So probably almost everyone. It's really hard to call out the boss, especially when you know that no one all the way up to the CEO has your back. Not saying it's still not the right thing to do, just, you should put yourselves in their shoes. Probably that entire room could have told the guy in unison "that wasn't cool" and they would have all been instantly fired, so, not sure what that's gonna do for anyone...
• rubicon33 10y ago
  I assume (and have some anecdotal proof) that this type of stuff happens with regularity in other "older" industries. Go to any law office and you'll find women with horrifying stories. Kudos to the tech community, the majority of whom, don't accept this type of reprehensible behavior.
• kristofferR 10y ago
  Is survivor really the right word here? The pointless hyperbole makes it easy for those who would want so (subconsciously or not) to discard the real story here, of the toxic company culture.
• jimbokun 10y ago
  I know this is politics and maybe distracting from the main conversation but... The United States voters just decided similar behavior is not disqualifying for the office of President. So how can we possibly convince other men this kind of behavior is not conducive to attaining the money, power, and influence they may desire?
  • localcrisis 10y ago
    I think this differs from the election in that we, Silicon Valley, have tacitly assumed that "things are different here", that 2017 San Francisco is different than 2017 Louisiana. That may be the case, but we still have a long way to go.
  • rustynails77 10y ago
    When you said men, are you ignoring when Marissa Mayer (not a man) dismissed many of her senior male staff and replaced them almost entirely with women? Please understand that sexism is not a "men" thing. It's selective reporting by the MSM.
• 234dd57d2c8dba 10y ago
  I am skeptical of both sides of this who Uber thing. The employee side seems to be so dramatic with things like I am a "survivor". I'm sorry but no, POWs in a prison camp are survivors. Victims of violent crime are survivors. People willingly working for a legitimate company, accepting an 18% pay cut for no reason, and not realizing you should quit once you realized the company has a bunch of jerks in it, is kind of stupid. The author seems to be really dramatic and wants attention to make herself feel good for making poor decisions such as working for a lower salary. I've had a lot of jobs, some good, some bad. I've had awful managers, on the same level as the ones described here. They would stab you in the back for anything. One of my best friends was insulted by our manager constantly for being weak and pathetic, among other things. He just shrugged and quit. I also didn't label myself a "survivor" though and whine about it. I just quit and found a better job. If your manager is a jerk and doesn't like you, he will find a way to insult you no matter what race or gender you are. Also haven't seen any actual evidence with emails or anything, even for stories that were supposedly documented with emails.
• tyre 10y ago
  I'm really happy she felt comfortable doing this. What an incredibly brave and strong person—I can't imagine what she must be feeling. What I really want to see is the other 20 men on her team tell their bosses to cut that shit out. We cannot rely on the abused to stand up for themselves; for every one who does there are thousands who cannot. It is on every one of us to report abhorrent behaviour, even if we think someone else has/will. Change comes from those in power, from people who could very rationally not care, but who go out of their way to do the right thing. It isn't an economic decision, a business decision, or a political decision. It is a personal decision on the world one wants to live in. We can do better. We must do better. Enough is enough.
  • macsj200 10y ago
    What specifically is the move forward here, though? I suppose hn as a community has the power to boycott applying to the company, but how else can we drive internal change from an external position? Uninstalling the app and simply choosing to use a competitor's services are another option, but sapping the entire organization of revenue seems like it would hurt drivers and developers at least as much as management, if not more so. Do you think this merits organized public protest? Is the average Uber user aware of the issues/incensed enough to actually take to the streets? Obviously I'd like to see a change, but I'm struggling with how best to actually make this happen.
    • hsod 10y ago
      Consumer action like boycotts and social media posting is nice, but I think the solution to this problem is lawsuits. Victims can seek redress through the courts, which both compensates them and holds the company directly to account for their actions. For a lot of reasons participating in lawsuits is challenging for the victims, and I am in no way criticizing any individual for not going through all of that. I just think that really making an impact is going to require more than a few hundred app deletions and some bad PR.
      • mirimir 10y ago
        How about a class action? Lois E. Jenson v. Eveleth Taconite Co. Jock v. Sterling Jewelers Inc.
• virtuexru 10y ago
  > My paycheck is 18% less than my less qualified male colleagues. I stopped reading here.
  • jhgaylor 10y ago
    Why? The pay gap is real and was nearly an aside in the article. This article is about a woman being mistreated by men in tech. This comment seems to be as well.
    • dudul 10y ago
      Mistreated by men? Did you miss the part where she writes that almost everybody in HR was a woman?
      • huckyaus 10y ago
        Did you miss literally every other part of the article? She wouldn't have needed to approach HR in the first place if not for the systemic abuse from males within the company.
      • Arizhel 10y ago
        It really seems to me that if you want to find the most evil women you possibly can, you just need to go talk to women who work in HR. There's no way I'd ever date a women who worked in HR. Once, many years ago, I met a woman on an online dating site who worked in HR for some big retailer. She made a comment (in the messaging app, we never met) disparaging the people who interviewed to work there. I commented that maybe if they paid better, they'd get better applicants. Never heard back from her after that. (No, she didn't work for CostCo; they're famous for paying well for those types of positions, and having very loyal and hard-working employees as a result.) It seems like HR people are really the worst kind of people: they're just rank-and-file employees usually (except the HR Director), but they'll happily defend the very worse corporate treatment of employees.
    • legostormtroopr 10y ago
      Because if true and provable, this is a federal case that she can sue over and win. In reality the wage gap is rarely as cut and dry as "women get paid less than men for the same jobs".
• yalogin 10y ago
  Its appalling she went through that and shameful to see people like this Mike #2 exist in the tech world in 2017. From what I can gather he still works there. It looks like the HR department at Uber exists purely to manage employee pay and nothing else. They are severely defanged and pander to star hires. At this point they could may be replace them all with some API and be done with it.
• smnscu 10y ago
  That's the tipping point for me. I don't care about being ruthless in business, but you don't pull shit like this. No more Uber for me, although I enjoy using their service.
• macsj200 10y ago
  I wonder what some of the considerations are for posting something like this under an alias v.s. attaching one's real name to a post. Obviously, one most likely wouldn't attach a real name to this kind of writing while one is working at the relevant company, but are there any other factors one might consider, aside from criticizing a current employer? Specifically, are there any possible concerns with being labelled a "problem case" and being blackballed in the tech industry as a whole? Is the author's credibility hurt significantly by choosing to use a pseudonym, or is the power of the message not greatly impinged? I have a huge amount of respect for anybody that has the courage to write about these kind of experiences, regardless of if a pseudonym is used or not.
• AndyMcConachie 10y ago
  Wouldn't it be great if the US had some place they could take these kinds of complaints? We could call it a national labor board or national labor relations board. They could maybe investigate these kinds of problems and impose penalties. Oh right, we can't because Republicans. They weren't allowed to reach quorum under Obama and now they're fucked under Trump. This is the reality of the war on regulation.
  • tptacek 10y ago
    We do have a place where these kinds of complaints can be taken: they're called civil courts. With regard to the NLRB: it's worth remember (talk to a labor lawyer) that in general the act of organizing resistance to unfair practices is itself intrinsically protected by law: you do not need the approval of the NLRB to organize your workplace. Under the NLRA, it's unlawful to retaliate against an employee for "protected concerted actions" in which two or more employees protest working conditions.
• ganfortran 10y ago
  OK, Uber is off the list for my next company. This toxic masculinity, whose dick is bigger contest is no good for stable person like me. Good luck with your alpha male culture, Uber :) Edit: Triggered Uber employee just sent his downvote. Pretty affirming. Good job, Uber :):P
• bad_throwaway 10y ago
  I have no reason to disbelieve this but Amy please fix your writing. This has the tone of a teenager's Tumblr post. Full of dramatic cliches and irrelevant details. (New Balance really?)
  • roberto 10y ago
    > And "Master's" with an apostrophe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree
    • bad_throwaway 10y ago
      OK. Edited.
• jacquesm 10y ago
  “There is no place for ethics in this business sweetheart. We are not a charity.” You can't make this up.
  • flippe 10y ago
    For $50K a year I will make up 10 of these per day.
• asymmetric 10y ago
  This is terrible, and one more reason to despise Uber, but I find the usage of the word "survivor" out of place in this context, at least in my understanding of its meaning. I know this is not the main point to take home from this situation, and I also know I'll be attacked from making it, but I felt it was important nonetheless.
  • azrazalea 10y ago
    It is far from unheard of for someone to kill themselves in these situations. Also, still working in the industry could be considered surviving and someone who left the industry due to this treatment could be considered someone who didn't survive. So i'd say survivor fits perfectly.
    • asymmetric 10y ago
      Committing suicide over something like this seems a bit extreme. Don't want to trivialize her suffering, or the gravity of what happened, but infantilizing people also doesn't help in making them stronger. Of course it's not up to me to decide when committing suicide makes sense (does it ever?), but this is the issue I see with the word "survivor": it seems to want to portray what happened in terms of a life threatening situation. As far as I can tell, it wasn't. Now, back to the main issue, i.e. sexual harassment at Uber.
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  • gtirloni 10y ago
    Her usage of "survivor" is appropriate both in terms of being alive (i.e. not committing suicide after traumatic experience) and being whole as a human being (i.e. having healed enough to function in society). There are countless studies linking sexual harassment and intimidation to suicides, just look it up.
    • 67726e 10y ago
• rustynails77 10y ago
  It's fantastic that we are seeing the selective exposure of sexism in the work place. I admire these people for having the courage to come out, especially given that some very high profile cases of sexism seem to be ignored by almost all of the mainstream media (MSM). As an example, I heard that Yahoo dismissed the majority of their senior male staff, unfairly. The Verge, Vox, The Daily Beast and a host of others didn't report on this. The link below isn't the best reference, but it's one of the few I could find. http://www.gamespot.com/forums/offtopic-discussion-314159273/yahoo-ceo-and-hillary-apologist-marissa-mayer-fire-33363940/ http://www.gamespot.com/forums/offtopic-discussion-314159273... I also remembered that Ars Technica gave it some limited and underwhelming exposure. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/yahoo-hit-with-another-lawsuit-claiming-anti-male-discrimination/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/yahoo-hit-with-a... This should be compared to Ars' coverage of Ellen Pao, not just in the number of articles but also the language used between the two articles. https://arstechnica.com/business/2015/07/breaking-ellen-pao-steps-down-from-job-as-reddit-ceo/ https://arstechnica.com/business/2015/07/breaking-ellen-pao-... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/ellen-pao-will-seek-appeal-in-high-profile-gender-discrimination-case/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/ellen-pao-will-s... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/ellen-pao-drove-the-returns-at-vc-firm-while-the-men-were-promoted-lawyers-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/ellen-pao-drove-... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/judge-says-kleiner-perkins-should-get-276k-from-ellen-pao/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/judge-says-klein... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/09/ellen-pao-drops-lawsuit-against-kleiner-perkins-agrees-to-pay-legal-fees/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/09/ellen-pao-drops-... https://arstechnica.com/business/2015/07/reddit-ceo-ellen-pao-issues-formal-apology-to-sites-users-and-moderators/ https://arstechnica.com/business/2015/07/reddit-ceo-ellen-pa... https://arstechnica.com/series/pao-vs-kleiner-perkins/ https://arstechnica.com/series/pao-vs-kleiner-perkins/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/ellen-pao-was-resentful-and-dismissive-kleiner-perkins-lawyers-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/ellen-pao-was-re... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/the-only-bad-press-is-no-press-what-ellen-paos-loss-means-for-women/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/the-only-bad-pre... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/former-facebook-employee-retains-ellen-paos-lawyer-in-new-discrimination-case/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/former-facebook-... It makes me wonder if some sex discrimination is condoned by the MSM.
• mememachine 10y ago
  >I wonder (doubt) if they've ever been abused. It's hard for someone who has been abused to come forward, let alone stand up to an abuser. If they dont stand up for themselves on any level, then they simply arent being abused i dont believe. If you cant express your own discomfort, its not anyone but your fault youre uncomfortable. This is a hard truth. (copied from my other comment in this thread) I'll give you a clear example. Suppose you have a pattern of behavior around me that offends and discomforts me. If I speak out, and complain, and you continue, you are probably being abusive (although not necessarily.) On the otherhand, if I make no attempt to express my discomfort in any way (doesnt mean verbal, could be anything), then the fault lies with ME, the supposed victim. I can't blame somebody for failing to read my mind. And this is the problem with professional victims. Personally, the uber story absolutely did not read that way. The issue is with people in these comments making overly broad claims.
  • wlamartin 10y ago
    I think this is far from truth, never mind hard truth and your example is way off point. I would say there are actions which clearly don't need an indication from the aggrieved party to recognise as abuse, such as seriously telling someone to "quit being a whiny bitch" from a position of power, in front of a team, in the workplace. You don't need to be a mind reader to understand this is not acceptable behaviour. There are clearly cases in which attempting to stand up to abusive behaviour has the potential to cause more problems (at the very least in the short term) than by staying silent - it's no surprise this occurs in domestic situations. Can you not empathise with people who feel this way, that maybe there are good reasons to not express the discomfort?
    • mememachine 10y ago
      >There are clearly cases in which attempting to stand up to abusive behaviour has the potential to cause more problems (at the very least in the short term) than by staying silent You seem to be confusing "standing up to abuse" and "indicating that behavior is abusive." The second is very risk-free and what I demand from anyone who wants to call themselves a victim. Again, it doesnt have to be verbal. But if youre making a special effort to hide it, I dont sympathize. In other words, if your "abuser" is reasonably unaware, for whatever reason, that you view their behavior as abusive, then you lose victim status. I want to go further with this. Just because youre uncomfortable, doesnt mean its unreasonable discomfort. Youre getting paid to WORK, which is by its nature uncomfortable. Often times "stop being a whiney bitch" is accurate (although obviously usually inappropriate.)
• jastingo 10y ago
  I'm not in the business of defending Uber - quite the contrary - but reading through the comments it seems that most people are assuming that this post by an anonymous person is 100% true. These types of posts are worrying to me. Why could this post not have been crafted by someone at Lyft? Or one of Uber's many other detractors? Given the PR nightmare that Uber is in why not pile on while the public seems primed for that type of information and stretch out the negative news cycle? Just thought I'd throw out a word of caution: we know literally nothing about the credibility of this person.
  • eropple 10y ago
    To be frank? Uber gets the benefit of the doubt when they demonstrate that they've earned it. Every bit of smoke I have seen, both online and in my social circles, has had fire behind it. Every one, without exception. So I'm going to believe this until I have a compelling reason not to, and "but it could be fake" isn't one.
    • walterstucco 10y ago
      I come from the country that gave birth to Cesare Beccaria and I won't stop believing that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise. Besides this is exactly smoke, blocking us from seeing the majestic damages Uber is doing to labour ad mobility all over the world. there will always be a woman who'll accept to work for them if the pay is good enough, the ones harassed will be maybe compensated one day with a few million dollars, but the elephant Uber will still be in the room. No matter what, they are still growing, and doing it fast. That's what really scares me, and all the engineers who did a great job of building their infrastructure are, IMHO, somewhat responsible for giving them the power to abuse it. I'm sure they all thought "let's give'em time and see what happens". This happens! every f*ing time. will we learn someday? will we stop to go west looking for the gold? I'm not sure we'll ever understand.
    • iopq 10y ago
      Just because every time you personally saw fire behind smoke doesn't mean that in the future this will hold.
• mememachine 10y ago
  If its clearly abusive and discomforting, of course. But often times the problem is the "victim". I'll give you a clear example. Suppose you have a pattern of behavior around me that offends and discomforts me. If I speak out, and complain, and you continue, you are probably being abusive (although not necessarily.) On the otherhand, if I make no attempt to express my discomfort in any way (doesnt mean verbal, could be anything), then the fault lies with ME, the supposed victim. I can't blame somebody for failing to read my mind. And this is the problem with professional victims. Personally, the uber story absolutely did not read that way. The issue is with people in these comments making overly broad claims.
  • iak8god 10y ago
    > Suppose you have a pattern of behavior around me that offends and discomforts me. If I speak out, and complain, and you continue, you are probably being abusive (although not necessarily.) On the otherhand, if I make no attempt to express my discomfort in any way (doesnt mean verbal, could be anything), then the fault lies with ME, the supposed victim. Bullshit. This kind of criticism might occasionally apply when the conduct in question falls into a grey area, or when it's not predictably offensive to literally any adult human with two brain cells to rub together, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the sort of situation described in this article. And you should be ashamed to say such things in a discussion about someone being sexually assaulted in the workplace.
    • mememachine 10y ago
      >Personally, the uber story absolutely did not read that way. The issue is with people in these comments making overly broad claims. From my comment. Again, I specifically addressed this. Did you read my comment?
      • xapata 10y ago
        If you're not talking about this situation at Uber, then why is your comment relevant? Despite your claim that you're discussing other situations, it seems like you are trying to say the post author is a "victim" rather than a victim.
• panitaxx 10y ago
  I think it's pretty obvious that Travis Kalanick should resign. He is the constant in all these stories supporting this nasty company culture. In the past year he has also been linked with Uber's shady business (attacks on press, fake income for drivers, etc) . He is the one pushing on borderline legal tactics. Even their business model is borderline legal (if anything). How he can deny knowing anything like the sexual harassment not happening ?
  • ziszis 10y ago
    There was a time when founders were replaced too soon with "professional management". The pendulum has swung the other way with the mythology of the founder. Now, founders are rarely if ever replaced.
  • CydeWeys 10y ago
    I agree with you. I think he's more of a negative than a positive for Uber right now. They have a huge image problem.
• halayli 10y ago
  Someone should build an app that can help in compiling such cases by automatically recording audio/vid anytime it hears a voice(s) we teach/specify (HR conversations, managers etc...) After some time I am sure the case solidifies with proofs. Sometimes you don't have the opportunity to pull your phone and open a recording app. It needs to be like siri and friends where once it recognizes a voice it starts recording.
  • cauterized 10y ago
    Except for the whole thing where it's illegal to record someone without their explicit consent.
• Arizhel 10y ago
  >Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the domain of shy, introverted men who just liked to play with technology, like back in the 80s. Now it's full of misogynistic frat dudes. The change started during the dot-com boom, and has only gotten worse since then.
  • TorKlingberg 10y ago
    I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. The methods probably very, but I don't think any personality type is free of the proverbial bad eggs.
    • Arizhel 10y ago
      >I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. I completely disagree. Stereotypically nerdy, shy, introverted men are not going to be extremely aggressive towards women in social settings; that's why they stereotypically have such a hard time getting dates: they're not even comfortable talking to women. They're certainly not going to be touching them inappropriately, making sexual comments and innuendo, etc. The men that stereotypically do that are like the guys who join frats in college and spend a lot of time in drunken parties. These are not introverts, they're extroverts. These stories about Uber and other such places are not talking about quiet male programmers occasionally talking about something inappropriate at work (like anime porn or something) and being overheard by women, these stories are about managers (and executives) doing grossly inappropriate and harassing things directly to women, usually women they supervise. Shy, nerdy men do not become "high performing" managers (the kind the CEO loves to go drinking with); that's clearly the domain of extroverts. And yes, every personality type has bad eggs, as there's exceptions for everything, but I'm talking in generalities here. But also importantly, it's my contention that even the rank-and-file engineers and programmers these days are more like the frat-bro stereotype, so they're not going to be any help, they're part of the problem and why this company culture thrives in Silicon Valley these days.
• losteverything 10y ago
  Two comments Future Amy's should always be prepared to start recording at a moment's notice. Think Roger Ailes If you ignore a verbal wrong said to someone else and you don't say something, then it is like you said it yourself.
  • favorited 10y ago
    > Future Amy's should always be prepared to start recording at a moment's notice It's not always that simple. California is a 2-party consent state. INAL, but my understanding is that a private conversation (in a non-public place) means all parties have an expectation of privacy, which makes recording that conversation without the consent of all parties a felony. Presumably, getting consent from your harasser to record their words and actions would be troublesome... Again, not a lawyer, but that's what I've come to understand as a CA resident.
    • dragonwriter 10y ago
      Except that the offense seems to be a misdemeanor (max incarceration is not > 1 year), I think your description is correct.
    • stale2002 10y ago
      What are they going to do? Sue you? This stuff is hard to prosecute. And if they start prosecuting... well... then their sexual harassment behavior will be made public.
      • FireBeyond 10y ago
        Unfortunately, as but one option, yes. Assuming it gets to that. Your tape won't see the light of the courtroom because it'll be ruled inadmissible (fruits of the poisoned tree). It'll be sealed by the court over the felony hearing because it contains statements that could be materially damaging to be released (that the person said them is not in question, unfortunately, more their 'expectations', right or wrong, when they said them). Won't get out that way. Oops. They got leaked, overtly or covertly? During one of those trials? Look forward to contempt proceedings. After the trial, look forward to defamation proceedings.
• r00fus 10y ago
  Are there any female Uber employees on HN? I wonder what they think about a) the veracity of this claim and b) why they are sticking with Uber.
  • mike_h 10y ago
    Why are male employees sticking with Uber?
  • bigiain 10y ago
    What do _you_ think about "the veracity of this claim"? Is there really _any_ doubt in your mind about Uber's management and culture? Seriously?
    • r00fus 10y ago
      I think it's legit. I wanted to solicit an insider's view, though I agree it may not be practical as I probably wouldn't post on HN even if I agreed.
• toephu2 10y ago
  Where is Mike #1?
• bbarn 10y ago
  I've said this elsewhere in comments, but people really need to let it sink in that HR is not there to help them, they are there to help the company. It is never in their interest to say "You're right, let's go get that guy!" They are institutionally there to deflect and play things down and prevent law suits. If you are abused, harassed, or mistreated, see a lawyer, not your company's HR team, who are only going to be advising their own lawyers later.
• pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
  this blog is 100% created by Uber, set up to later turn around and pull the rug out from you all and chastise you for believing fake news. you're all idiots.
• diebir 10y ago
  Without getting into any details this: "Once in a group chat, team members referred to a new Asian American recruit as slanty eye joe" seems very strange to me. The Uber tech org is like 80%+ foreign born, this makes pretty much zero sense. Disclaimer: I work for Uber.
  • jakobegger 10y ago
    Racism isn't limited to locals. Foreign born people can be just as racist as everyone else. For example, it's suprisingly common to hear immigrants complain that there is too much immigration now.
    • rrauenza 10y ago
      I don't know if you realize it, but you are conflating anti-immigration sentiments with racism.
  • arkitaip 10y ago
    Yes, because casual racism by individuals makes sense.
  • tyingq 10y ago
    I have seen groups of people where their internal culture stamps the OK on terms like that...even when members of the group are of that race. Some kind of thing where slinging insults of any type is "playful" and accepted. It's odd, but it happens.
  • lubesGordi 10y ago
    You work for Uber but are you in the SV offices? The culture probably varies quite a bit depending on where you are.
    • diebir 10y ago
      I meant the San Francisco offices. I think this office is something like half (corrected) Asian American. I thought about this a bit more and it makes even less sense. I have worked for a number of old generation US companies and some were a part of the military-industrial complex. The employee population in them was significantly biased to the right (white, male, middle aged), up to the point that it would be "Trump crowd" today. Yet, I have never heard anything like this. Uber as any other tech company is full of younger and more liberal people. So this particular allegation (open expressions of racism towards Asian Americans) just seems extremely unlikely. Unless... Well, there are indeed some countries that are culturally very casually racist. Ex-USSR comes to mind. Yet, even ex-USSR crowd is not that stupid and by now there enough self awareness to not say things like this out loud. This is fishy.
• grandalf 10y ago
  I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. I had a person on my team once who I did not hire but who had a reputation for being one of the smartest and most capable engineers. As his new manager, I expected that I'd soon promote him. But then I saw that he treated others on the team very poorly and often said highly inappropriate sexual things. I talked to the founder and was told that he's really a great guy, etc. As it got worse I mentioned the pattern to HR, and HR was initially concerned, but then after HR met with the founder it was as if I was imagining the problem. I tell this story simply to point out that the same culture that tolerates bullies and harassment can happen even when there is a female founder. I know it's a cliche that bullies are always deeply insecure. I think that is the case for workplace bullies too. The brash, over-confident, aggressive act that these people put on works to help them find out who they can victimize. Others who interact less closely often perceive people (particularly engineers) who have a brash, confident attitude as being smart and capable. Just because someone quickly points the finger and shoots down other peoples' ideas doesn't mean his/her ideas are smart :) I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture. There should not be any question that certain behavior is inappropriate and is grounds for a stern warning (or worse). But once this doesn't happen, a sort of law of the jungle emerges and bullies and exploiters can take over. The more information that comes out about Uber's culture, I think Travis probably needs to go.
  • leroy_masochist 10y ago
    > I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. Based on anecdotal experience I think this is quite true. It's almost like the dark side of the Taleb chapter that was on HN the other day...just as Taleb trusts the disheveled butcher-looking doctor more than the elegant and refined one because the fact that the unkempt one has made it this far without looking like a professional underscores his actual professional skill[0], it really seems to me that some founders/senior execs instinctively prefer hiring assholes, because assholes must be really good at what they do -- look at how far they've come despite being an asshole! [0]: https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surgeons-23b0e2cf6d52#.ps8sxy110 https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surg...
• dopamean 10y ago
  If I were in a meeting and anyone referred to one of my coworkers as a "bitch" I would walk out of the meeting immediately and report it to HR. There's no way to know that the men in the room when "Amy" was insulted like that didn't report it to HR but it really makes me wonder. There are so many more me in tech than women that they really do need us to be part of the fight against this shit. It is crazy to me that this kind of behavior really exists.
• flamedoge 10y ago
  You hear that? Uber stock crashing in background
• princetontiger 10y ago
  I'm glad more of this stuff is coming out. As a male, I've been demeaned by a woman at one of the largest tech companies on earth. I ended up quitting, and I last I heard that woman was demoted/fire. Our media is super powerful, and I love getting more of this out. 1984 can't happen with a free press.
• alinspired 10y ago
  what every man needs to ask himself and reflect on: - would i stand up to a pig in the room - would i stand up to a pig in the room that is way up the ladder
  • bigiain 10y ago
    - and have I had my snout in the trough alongside my coworkers so long that I don't even realise the rest of the world can all see my curly tail...
  • Tomis02 10y ago
    I think a reasonable reaction would be to stand up and slap him around for a good few seconds (10 should do the trick). Then proceed to go to HR to report the guy and threaten with a lawsuit if he's not instantly fired. There you go. As an engineer in California you should be able to find another workplace if they decide to fire you instead.
    • mtarnovan 10y ago
      Stand up to him - sure. But slap him around? I think you may have overdosed on punch-the-nazi memes.
      • Tomis02 10y ago
        I just said it would be a reasonable reaction (as in, I would understand someone doing it), not that I would actually do it.
• chetanahuja 10y ago
  At this point, after all the allegations of abuse and bad behavior at Uber, if the CEO is not fired, the community here must hold the Uber board complicit in these shenanigans. The situation here seems similar (or maybe worse) in magnitude as that at Zenefits. The board there took swift action once the accusations came out in public and perhaps saved the company (at least in the short term). What can the HN community, made up of founders/investors/technologists do here? Push for a consumer boycott of Uber? Refuse to work for Uber? Refuse to do business with Uber?
• digitalmaster 10y ago
  It honestly and truly disgusts me to hear what's been allowed to go on at this company. #uninstalled #lyftBetterBeGood
• sergiotapia 10y ago
  >Once in a group chat, team members referred to a new Asian American recruit as slanty eye joe. It was normal for guys to refer to other guys as fags when they didn’t participate in private parties where sex and drugs were involved. It was normal for guys to openly refer to attractive female colleagues as sluts when they refused to go out with them. They had private chats where guys wrote sexual fantasy stories about female colleagues and supervisors where they performed all sorts of demeaning acts on the women. This feels so unreal, just incredible! Amy Anon, time to sue Uber and get yourself a piece of the Uber VC. What kind of cretins work at Uber?
• flippe 10y ago
  We've gotten to a point where regardless of who's in the right, the most (only?) effective way to attack a huge company is controversial allegations posted under the veil of anonymity. Regardless of what (if anything) in these allegations happened, this is costing Uber ridiculous amounts of money and all it took was an anonymous blog post. I know I'm a horrible person to say this, but if I were an Uber competitor, these posts would be part of my marketing arsenal. If unaccountable journalism produces results, it's going to be used. If it isn't already, it will. There's too much money and not enough risk in it. And the only way to fight against this is to not let yourself be part of outrage culture. We have evidence-based courts for dealing with these things.
• lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 10y ago
  Another article with some fake name and pull the woman card to justify slandering....Uber probably did not meet your expectations but for sure they aren't much worse than most companies in this field.
• kpwagner 10y ago
  Is a "ubersurvivor" hashtag really what's needed? WARNING: this comment is not a safe place and contains my opinions. Victim praising will do nothing to change Uber's behavior. Expecting Uber to change anything as the result of your words is a fools errand. The more likely outcome is Uber will only harden it's shell. Do you expect one of the most highly praised startups of the last decade to suddenly find religion and say, "oh we were wrong, you are all right? (and actually mean it)"? People vote with their feet (Milton Friedman). Talk is cheap (Fat Tony). If you want to start a revolution, don't try to change others, change yourself (Jordan Peterson). Uber is suffering for its transgressions in the form of talent loss. Susan Fowler indicated the number of female engineers at Uber significantly reduced during her time there. The nice thing about employment at will is that it works both ways. It's scary to leave a high-profile high-status job and go into the unknown; it's also a very powerful action.
  • idoh 10y ago
    For those wondering, Fat Tony is a character in The Black Swan (and not meant to be the rapper of the same name).
• relics443 10y ago
  I have friend who is an engineering middle manager at Uber. I was having drinks with him and some of his direct reports (including 2 women), and they all told me that they've never experienced or heard of any of this behavior until recently. Obviously that's anecdata (although it has the benefit of me knowing that it's true, as opposed to Amy's story), but I think people are jumping to conclusions here. It seems that there is some kind of problem at Uber. The scope and size of it remains to be seen.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    I wouldn't be willing to admit that I had seen that, or had experienced that in front of my direct manager. Especially given what happened to those who did try to report.
• upofadown 10y ago
  >“There is no place for ethics in this business sweetheart." "Oh, we are doing pet names for our coworkers now? From now on I will refer to you as 'dickhead'".
• pharrington 10y ago
  Company that has skeezy and predatory business practices has skeezy and predatory company culture. God damn shocking Speaking unsarcasticly, the women who are starting to come out and reveal this are very brave.
• Lee1989 10y ago
  My friend worked for the Santa Monica office and told me some wacky stories as well. This place needs an HR overhaul.
• Lee1989 10y ago
  My friend worked for the Santa Monica office and told me some wacky stories. Sounds like Uber needs an HR overhaul.
• tps5 10y ago
  Just an aside, I think it's insane that women in tech are pressured (or feel pressured) to wear heels. Is this common in California?
  • shas3 10y ago
    > Just an aside, I think it's insane that women are pressured (or feel pressured) to wear heels. Is this common in California? FTFY.
• Tycho 10y ago
  It's a sign that the election hysteria is finally fading that we are back in the thrall of these corporate kiss-and-tell scandals and intrigues. Thank god.
• shawnee_ 10y ago
  Rock the boat, people. You are a part of your company's culture: not an observer of it, not a victim of it. From an article I wrote a couple years ago: "My two cents for the conversation is pretty simple: there are only two different kinds of humans in the world: Those who actively exploit women, and those who actively speak out against the exploitation of women. Keeping your mouth shut for fear of rocking the boat -- this is a form of apathy all its own." http://ink.hackeress.com/2015/01/why-im-boat-rocker.html http://ink.hackeress.com/2015/01/why-im-boat-rocker.html
  • andreyf 10y ago
    This can be generalized to similar spectrum in quite a few domains: those who fear of rocking the boat on one end and those who do it without good reason. Part of working in a larger organization is the politics of knowing when the right time to speak up and make change is. I kind of wish I was working at Uber right now because now is the time for them.
• CodeWriter23 10y ago
  Someone puts hands on you at work, file an assault complaint with the police. Period.
• owly 10y ago
  Rise up people and take action. Boycott uber and let them fail. As others have said, there are plenty of other companies in the space ready to fill the void. #deleteuber
• torpfactory 10y ago
  I've had co-workers, upon a woman passing by in the cafeteria, say things like "would you do her?" I told them "shut the fuck up. You debase yourself by saying shit like that." Look them in the eye, say it with the confidence of the truth you know it is. If HR wants to debate me on cursing my co-workers, I'd be happy to oblige. What are they going to say? Don't tell your coworkers it's wrong to demean women?
• DigitalSea 10y ago
  Oh, man. Uber sounds like a seriously sick, toxic environment. Get rid of Travis, get rid of everyone in a management position, fire the HR team and actually make an attempt to better the working conditions at Uber. I'm a man, and reading this plus Susan's story shared recently makes my stomach turn. It truly is sickening. I deleted Uber off my phone, I refuse to support a company that runs like a gentlemens club operating in 1955. The sad thing about all of this is, when women report this kind of behaviour they get told to "report it", but it seems in the case of Uber (and who knows where else) these claims come with a huge cloud of being fired hanging over your head or they're just ignored. I think Uber needs to be investigated by an impartial third-party and to be honest, the only way this will happen is if the investors step in and do something about it. Fuck Uber.
• josephlord 10y ago
  Uber seems to be a slightly special case in terms of how blatant discrimination seems to be and the explicitly deceitful and in the obviously abusive responses from HR but the general problems of harassment and discrimination are not unique. I'm aware of multiple issues at Google and issues at Docker (although not the full details of that one). HR being useless and protecting company and senior management is common although they may be less blatant about it than Uber. Google is obviously huge so many areas may be OK. Those are just issues I'm aware of following a few women on Twitter, they are the tip of the iceberg, some issues never come out at all, others are privately shard between women and others that might be vulnerable (I'm not in that loop).
• voodooranger 10y ago
  I consider the HN community to be one of the most thoughtful I've found on the web, yet am stunned by how quickly a righteous mob is formed based on an anonymous, cartoonish, and IMO barely plausible account of what it's like to work for a large US tech company. Having spent years working at multiple SV tech companies, where even the slightest tinge of a racist or sexist affront would land you in an office in front of HR and a company lawyer, I find this account to be very difficult to believe. Slanty eye joe? Please. We don't know if this is a (poorly written) attempt to sink Uber (which I don't happen to care for) by someone with a short position and an evening to spare, or if it has been penned by an employee with a grudge. Please have some credulity before parading your #deleteuber hashtags and morally superior posturing so the world can marvel at how virtuous you are. There has never been a more evil force in the world than an outraged, self-righteous mob inflamed by twisted anecdotes. And yes, I've resorted to creating a throwaway account, fully expecting the flagging and down-voting groupthink brigade to be in force. If there's a shameful story here, it's more likely this disturbing human phenomenon, not an anonymous blog post, the veracity of which we know nothing about.
  • dongslol 10y ago
    I think the idea of "victim-blaming" has morphed into its own beast. We're so scared of doing it that asking for evidence or asking critical questions is now in a weird way associated with victim blaming. Everyone in this thread who's said what you said has ipso facto gotten downvoted. I find myself suspicious of this new culture of "standing together in solidarity," "letting vulnerable people tell their narratives," "being supportive," etc. These all sound like perfectly upstanding things to do, but nowadays they dominate discourse. Facts, reason, and inquiry are now considered oppressive. I've met some people who have asked, why is this a problem? Who cares if a couple people make things up, when there are so many people hurting out there? Well, people who make things up make real stories less believable. And it incentivizes victimhood, which nowadays carries with it the reward of not having to engage in debate, because anyone who voices doubt is considered a monster. Someone earlier got flagged for saying what you said. Not just downvoted so his post would be light gray, but flagged so his post would disappear. And really, at the end of the day, what can trigger-happy moral outrage accomplish that a quiet sense of justice backed by reason, fairness, and determination can't?
• dongslol 10y ago
  Social justice fundamentally needs an economic basis to stand on. If you want to stop sexual harassment, install a financial penalty. * The internet was supposed to democratize this stuff. People like Balaji Srinivasan say the FDA should be replaced with Yelp for drugs. Why isn't Glassdoor more effective? Why wasn't Uber's toxic work culture public knowledge, gorgeously pinned to the top of Google's search results? * When people like Mike interrupt meetings to tell his subordinates not to be a "whiny little bitch," presumably it makes all the quiet, thoughtful people in the room teem with unease. Ideally every instance of this adds a quantum of incentive for them to leave the company. How can that be encouraged? * Do unions offer any protections to a group of Uber engineers who decided tomorrow to just walk out together?
  • DaveWalk 10y ago
    A very good set of prompts, thanks for taking the time to think of them. - On Glassdoor: I assume it's mostly-anonymous replies are an issue. Has anyone verified what is posted there, say comparing it to official data or something? You're of course right that it's a place to start. I'm more troubled by the lack of sleuthing done before accepting an offer to uncover the blindingly obvious problems. -How to encourage others to call out bad behavior? I don't see an easy answer there. The power differential is still there. If a VP humiliates a subordinate, another subordniate may not have the power to change behavior. Ideally a complaint goes up to the VP level and a discussion is had there (or higher). - On unions: I've heard this passed around for years, most famously when Steve Jobs's posthumous testimony was in that hiring/collusion lawsuit. I think it's mostly an academic issue at this point similar to other pre-union industries: it's a challenge getting highly-paid employees to favor organizing (and possibly a lower wage) for the benefits.
  • bbarn 10y ago
    > * The internet was supposed to democratize this stuff. We have people like Balaji Srinivasan saying the FDA should be replaced with Yelp for drugs. Why isn't Glassdoor more effective? Why wasn't Uber's toxic work culture public knowledge, gorgeously pinned to the top of Google's search results, long before Susan or Amy started interviewing? "The internet" as a decision making body rewards the loudest, most obnoxious, easiest to use, quickest to strong arm someone into joining its network. Not the most just, or best for its own well being.
• tasty_freeze 10y ago
  I can only imagine that the bulk of the employees at Uber in that room with her were young and still intoxicated by startup success to allow Mike#2 to say things like that. I am 12 years away from the valley, but was at half a dozen startups in 20 years prior and I can't remember ever being on a team that would have put up with a manager saying something like that to a coworker.
• xd360 10y ago
  I think it's about time Uber was slapped with a class action lawsuit by all of it's former employees who have faced similar workplace abuse. Uber may smear the reputation of one of two women who try to sue them and bury their case, but if they all come together and file a class action lawsuit then their case cannot be just thrown out or buried and Uber certainly cannot manage to smear the reputation of all the plaintiffs in the group. The #ubersurvivors have a very strong chance of getting justice that way. And when the case is so strong, with all victims coming together as one, they will even receive legal support from top lawyers, who will also want to take their case since it's stronger and winnable now, and if not for justice, they'll do it with the incentive of a cut from the compensation or the glory of suing a billion dollar company. The good thing about class action lawsuits is that it leaves no room for the judge or jury to believe that a dozen people are lying and cannot just ignore the plaintiffs' allegation and proofs (chats, emails, alibis). So, I hope the #ubersurvivors seriously consider coming together, teaming up and getting the justice they rightfully deserve.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
• c141charlie 10y ago
  I'm not sure the author wants to be anonymous. The amount of data she shared about herself in the third paragraph is probably enough to social engineer your way to her true identity.
• c141charlie 10y ago
  I'm not sure the author wants to be anonymous. The amount of data she shared about herself in the third paragraph is probably enough to social engineer your way to her true identity.
• findyoucef 10y ago
  I don't understand why these jobs are even worth it to anyone? How much are they making 130-160k to work 16 hour days and are abused on top of that? Fuck that.
• shultays 10y ago
  I am aware of sexism in my field but the characters in article sound like bullshit to me. It is like all the evil characters from soap operas work at Uber now. team members referred to a new Asian American recruit as slanty eye joe seriously? “You know what heels do don’t you?” he smirked while placing his hands on his behind so as to suggest that they make them look bigger. He then patted on my shoulder and squeezed it before walking away I am rolling my eyes now. I can accept a few person in a big company is that racist/sexist, but whole company is like that or overlooks this stuff? edit: to clarify, "I can accept" is used as "I find it possible". I am not saying it is keep such parties at a company. English is not my main language and I worded this very poorly
• Entalpi 10y ago
  Jesus effing Christ, how is this company even holding together?
• Entalpi 10y ago
  Jesus effing Christ, how is this company even holding together?
• sjjah445 10y ago
  It's 2017, why isn't there any video or audio of these things? Why hasn't this guy been outed yet? After the first time this happened I'd be recording everything and waiting to get a huge payout when I sue (or at least a settlement for a few years salary).
• tlogan 10y ago
  We have elected the president which "will grab them by the pussy" so we should not be surprised that Uber might have culture like this. The problem is much deeper than just Uber...
• gandutraveler 10y ago
  This seems to be common in highly competitive companies. Uber has been ruthless and that has helped them grow so fast while ignoring these complaints. This cannot go on for long.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• gaius 10y ago
  This is the part that really hits me. When, in a meeting, Mike#2 says to "stop being a whiny little bitch" Yet Torvalds says worse all the time, and he's a geek hero. I sense a double standard here, and I'm not sure why.
  • tanderson92 10y ago
    Linus has made demeaning, sexist remarks to a woman to lower her self-worth and value, in a way worse than (or even similar to) "whiny little bitch" ? Please provide sources, I'm genuinely interested.
    • gaius 10y ago
      You really need a link to Torvalds abusing people? Here's kernel dev Sarah Sharp https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus...
      • tanderson92 10y ago
        Sorry, that doesn't prove what you claimed. In fact every piece of evidence appears to be him yelling at males. (And I'm also not sympathetic to Sarah here given the clearly joking nature of Linus' reply about Greg -- notice how others took it. See also http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137391528412980&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137391528412980&w=2 See also one of the supposed receivers of abuse on the supposed abuse: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137401130111098&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137401130111098&w=2 Here's another supposed victim on the "abuse": http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137410815810454&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137410815810454&w=2 Notably: " If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant mode, then I'm all on your side.")
        • gaius 10y ago
• simplehuman 10y ago
  Cannot believe people are assuming this completely anonymous post is true. Did people just forget the whole fake news thing just a couple of months back? This whole thing can be just creative writing for all we know. But this is armchair journalism at it's finest by HN readers.
• uberbounty 10y ago
  Forget all this pussy lawsuit bs. This is when you do the right thing by hunting down mike#2 with a shotgun.
• deevolution 10y ago
  Id like to see a corporate war between male dominant uber and an all female ride sharing competitor.
• jlebrech 10y ago
  the number rule for men is, don't pursue women from work.
• learningram 10y ago
  >My paycheck is 18% less than my less qualified male colleagues. I stopped reading after this line. Not because it cannot be true but because it reeks of agenda and made me doubt her credibility.
  • fletom 10y ago
    by "agenda" do you mean the agenda of exposing sexism at Uber? because that's what the whole post is about. and why exactly would it make you doubt her credibility?
• vidoc 10y ago
  > Chauvinistic, racist and homophobic attitudes were far too normal at Uber There should be a $10 fine every-time the wonderful word 'chauvinism' is misused. The law should nevertheless have an exception if the term is appropriately prefixed: 'male chauvinism' even if it hardly makes any sense (1). For those who are curious, the term comes from a soldier named Nicolas Chauvin who lived around the turn of the 18th/19th century. The guy was exaggeratedly nationalistic and subject to mockeries in the pop culture. A 'chauvinistic' person is a person that pushes the boundaries of jingoism and patriotism to the extreme and ends being grotesque. 1:While tolerable, the term 'male chauvinism' makes no sense since a 'chauvinistic' attitude is supposed to contain a great deal of bad faith and demagoguery, and I'm afraid a lot of 'chauvinistic males' are actually sincere in their beliefs. Apparently the misuse started in the 70s, not only in english but in german too (would love to hear a german speaking person weight on this). It's not too late, we can save this word, we can prevent it from being the new 'bistro'!
• jordache 10y ago
  Not having been in the silicone valley culture, I'm wondering how does racism typically work in that environment, given a disproportionate percentage of the work force are asian and south asian.
• fmatthew5876 10y ago
  Why do you people continue working at a second rate company like this? Horrible culture, long hours, low pay, and you're getting paid in worthless stock options. All promises and bullshit. You can be sure management will do everything they can to prevent you from cashing in those options and forcing you to stay at the company for as long as possible.