22 ms·

Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

723 points by velodrome 12y ago

m_mueller 12y ago
So I guess windows RT will be continued? I first thought that they're going x86-only, including the phones.
- guardian5x 12y ago
  There has no announcement been made to discontinue Windows on the ARM platform.
- waitwaitwhay 12y ago
  Supporting something like RT is a lot more than just making it compile.
ch4ch4 12y ago
I hope they get rid of the stupid code-signing requirement that's currently in RT which prevents all third-party apps from running in RT desktop mode! I'd love to be able run Chrome on a Windows ARM device...
- Kwastie 12y ago
  If they didn't it would defeat the sole purpose of the Raspberry Pi IMHO. (Hacking software + hardware)
teh 12y ago
It's nice to see Microsoft cares. OTOH part of the attraction of the RPi for me is that people freely share their knowledge, code and cool hacks. Adding a humongous blob of unmodifiable software doesn't really align with any of that. In the best case people will shun this, in the worst case it could harm the culture.
- andyjohnson0 12y ago
  I'm fairly sure that most RPi users neither modify the OS that their device is running or even look at the source code. The community-led innovation mainly happens higher up the stack, and in the hardware add-on space, and I don't see how Windows on RPi would change that. Windows on RPi is unlikely to ever be mainstream, so anyone using Windows-specific features on software would have to accept that their code would be interesting to only a small minority of other RPi users. Meta: Why all the anti-MS cynicism on the threads for this topic? Isn't it kind of old now? (Edit: Added "...unlikely to ever be mainstream...")
  - GauntletWizard 12y ago
    Because Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is older than dirt. Microsoft had a long habit of adopting public standards, adding proprietary extensions, and then smothering the standard by making their extensions intentionally obtuse and hard to interoperate with. I don't honestly see how they could do such with the Pi, but I'm honestly not awful enough to see all the nasty possibilities. From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative. How this fits into a Microsoft sales plan, I don't see; It might be somebody's pet project based on their child's interest in a Pi (As was basically the origin of the Zune and Kinect; I know the sales guys who responsible for allowing those to be engineered). Regardless, I expect it to be a redheaded stepchild, because it's sales potential is not proven.
    - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
      > From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative. You say you lived in Washington, are you implying you were a Microsoft employee? Seems from everyone I'm hearing from that they've been making major structure changes for a while now and a lot of the old management has been shuffled or removed (especially with those huge rounds of layoffs) so I'm curious as to why I'm hearing something different from what you're saying.
hfaran 12y ago
Out of all of the exciting news coming from Redmond this past year, this has somehow taken the cake for me. In 2013, even suggesting Windows on Raspberry Pi could be a possibility would've gotten you laughed out of the room, and for it now to be actually happening made me take more than a few double-takes.
- anom9999 12y ago
  It's not that surprising news. NT has supported ARM for a few years now and the Raspberry Pi 2 is a pretty beefy board - all things considered.
  - joosters 12y ago
    Actually Microsoft seemed to be backing away from ARM support. They have abandoned Windows 10 for existing Windows RT devices, for instance.
    - egil 12y ago
      That is probably because Surface RT has pretty much been rejected by the market. There is no business in beating a dead horse.
- sjogress 12y ago
  At least in my group of friends this was joked about as late as yesterday. Definitely impressive of Microsoft and the RPI guys. I'm looking forward to trying it out for myself.
- supercoder 12y ago
  I dunno, Windows has always seemed to enjoy running on cheap hardware.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    Linux also. From the consumer market, only OS X/iOS demands over-priced hardware to run.
databass 12y ago
Does anyone know what they mean when they say "grounded in trust"? (Seems odd to imply that other OSes are not trustworthy.) Referring to code signing, perhaps?
- SixSigma 12y ago
  New Breakfast Flakes - Asbestos Free http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCereal http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCerea...
danbruc 12y ago
Okay, come on! Who are you? And what did you do to Microsoft?
comboy 12y ago
OK, Microsoft somehow got its sh*t together. I've been seeing them on local programming conferences (in Poland!), they started caring about open source, this company may still have a bright future.
cm2187 12y ago
I hope it will support the .net framework. That would make it really accessible to unsophisticated hobbyists like me! There are very few things one can't do with a USB port!
- SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
  Mono runs on existing raspis right now. So this looks very possible.
castell 12y ago
Next step, Microsoft announces FX!32 for Win10 ARM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32 FX!32 is a software emulator program that allows Win32 programs built for the Intel x86 instruction set to execute on DEC Alpha-based systems running Windows NT.
- trentnelson 12y ago
  Hey, I could put Windows 10 on my DEC^WHP^WCompaq ES40!
secfirstmd 12y ago
This is great. Especially for the developing world where the Pi has great potential but people only really want to use and learn in a Windows environment.
masterzoozoo 12y ago
Awesome news to hear. But I am not sure how far it will be compatible with the low resources on a Raspberry Pi.
- patja 12y ago
  The just announced supercharged pi model should handle it.
bohol 12y ago
Somewhat surprised that there are around 20 comments and all of the seem to be from more or less a consumer perspective. The Raspberry Pi is one of the few embedded devices with aspires to be used as a desktop computer and on top of that as a way to learn computers. Embedded systems is also one of the few threats to Windows, but this hasn't really materialized yet since most devices only comes with android drivers. All in all it's a great strategic move for Microsoft and confirms my suspicion that Linux is losing the second round of the desktop wars.
- MoOmer 12y ago
  Once you consider that the version for the Rpi2 is an 'IoT' system, and not a desktop OS, this comment becomes irrelevant.
  - bohol 12y ago
    Considering that what you consider 'IoT' and what Microsoft considers 'IoT' isn't the same thing it might be your comment that is irrelevant. http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-whatisit-140607104402-phpapp01/95/iot-what-is-it-18-638.jpg http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-whatisit-140607104402-php...
20kleagues 12y ago
IoT devices running Windows 10. So I guess my coffee machine will also have the blue screen of death (BSOD) now. Jokes aside, strategic move by Microsoft. The new CEO has some interesting stuff in mind indeed. Can't wait for the build conference where they open the HoloLens dev tools.
- tkmcc 12y ago
  That's not a joke: quite a few coffee machines around the Microsoft campus run embedded Windows, including one in the recruiting building's reception lounge.
  - riskable 12y ago
    Have these windows coffee machines ever produced the bad coffee of death though?
marknadal 12y ago
Could somebody explain how this is possible, given RAM and CPU constraints? Like, does W10 actually run with that small of a footprint it works on a Raspberry Pi 2?
- lovelearning 12y ago
  Conceptually, it's just like Windows 8 can run both on a desktop as well as a Lumia phone. I'm not sure whether they actually share parts of the codebase (like the linux kernel does), or it's just some common UI elements like tiles + shared brand name on top of wildly different kernels.
  - guardian5x 12y ago
    In fact they use the NT-Kernel for Windows Phone as well. [1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-fina...
    - lovelearning 12y ago
      That is indeed very informative, thanks! "...the Windows Phone OS will include the same file system (NTFS), same networking stack, same security elements, graphics engine (DirectX), device driver framework and hardware abstraction layer (HAL) as big Windows." I hadn't realized they share so much. If this statement holds true for the upcoming Windows 10, then it's probably the very first time DirectX is running on any SBC. I wonder if Broadcom have made some changes to VideoCore GPU to support DirectX.
- pietro 12y ago
  The RP2 is a pretty decent machine compared to the historical PCs that Windows was designed for.
- raesene4 12y ago
  Not sure about CPU but you can get Windows 8.1 devices with 1GB of RAM which run fine (and that's full desktop 8.1, not a cut down IoT build that this is likely to be) For me it's the lower limit of what's possible and it's slow if you load up many apps, but definitely possible.
alisnic 12y ago
I was waiting for a long time for something like that. Now I will be able to make a very cheap parents' pc
tegeek 12y ago
I personally want a trimmed down version of .NET (perhaps the new Core CLR which is just 10 MB) so I can run F#. Mono is too heavy and have millions other dependencies I dont want to grab. Running a modern & practical functional language on RB Pi will be extremely joyful for me.
- FlyingSnake 12y ago
  Does .Net micro framework fit the bill? http://www.netmf.com/ http://www.netmf.com/
  - josteink 12y ago
    Last I checked, Micro is too small and lacks crucial things you want for everyday development, and that is for a normal developer, not a language runtime-designer. It was targeted mostly towards very low-specced hardware, closer to a Arduino than a Pi. I'm guessing things like F# relies on too much things which are not included here.
  - Sanddancer 12y ago
    Micro's interpreted, and is missing a lot of the bits and pieces of .NET that make it a real nice platform to work with. So you end up with something slow, and a fairly limited standard library.
- akoeplinger 12y ago
  fsharp on Ubuntu with Mono dependencies: sudo apt-get install fsharp [...] Need to get 22.2 MB of archives. After this operation, 66.0 MB of additional disk space will be used. Personally, I wouldn't call that heavy. Remember that the 10MB figure for CoreCLR you give is just for the runtime alone, it doesn't include any class libraries. The Mono runtime is in the same ballpark.
mantenpanther 12y ago
I can't see this working, hence windows is not exactly a lean OS. Coinincidently I'm stuck in an update/reboot cycle at the moment after a fresh install. Also i need to extend my partion of 60GB after just installing the OS (8.1) to get Visual Studio installed (which will also take at least 10GB). I like the new direction of MS, but i wonder if it's possible to succeed with so much old baggage to carry...
- lisnake 12y ago
  Their current running WindowsOnDevices program showcases Microsoft's developer preview of a new, tiny version of Windows that runs on small CPU-based devices like the Intel Galileo dev board. I'm sure they are aiming for something similar for RPi2 (it's obviosly impractical to run full scale Windows 10 on such underpowered devices)
- teh_klev 12y ago
  You don't have to install Visual Studio on your system drive, it'll happily install and run on another drive.
- UK-AL 12y ago
  The core of windows is tiny, its all the other stuff that makes it big.
danieldk 12y ago
I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Although .NET is slowly opening up, Windows is closed as ever. So, it does not actually let you check out how stuff works: looking up that function in the Python standard library, seeing how it calls libc, and then diving into libc to see how it is actually implemented. It's in Microsoft interest to keep kids in their ecosystem, which has been pretty much unproblematic in the nineties and before the smart phone revolution. As the RPi becomes more popular in education, it would be bad for them when kids see that there is something else that not only works well, but also allows them to do more. My fear is that teachers will now choose for Windows on the RPi, since that is what they know. And we are back to where we started: a fundamentally unhackable system. Now, if Microsoft would open up the core of Windows. I would be impressed. Now? Not so.
- nmeofthestate 12y ago
  "Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves" "Windows is closed as ever" Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers.
  - beagle3 12y ago
    There have been quite a few projects that did hack the kernel and drivers directly. The majority of users are actually running XBMC on the Pi, and they don't care if it's linux or windows. But the early adopters do care, and they are all Linux people.
    - nmeofthestate 12y ago
cliffbean 12y ago
While most people don't hack kernel code themselves, there is still value in promoting open source operating systems. A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code.
- morganvachon 12y ago
  > A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code. I just can't agree with that. F/OSS fan that I am, I still think the same opportunities will exist whether Windows runs on a particular piece of hardware or not. After all, GNU/Linux and BSD have flourished despite Windows running on the same hardware for the past 30 years. How is this any different? I see it as opening up new channels for learning, not closing them off. To look at it another way, this is similar to Microsoft being late to the party on modern smartphones. The existence of Windows Phone 7 and 8 has done absolutely nothing to slow down the explosion of popularity in Android and iOS phones. I don't foresee a huge percentage of Raspberry Pi owners jumping ship to Windows 10; maybe dabbling with it but that's it. As far as we know, GNU/Linux will continue to offer a superior learning experience.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    FreeBSD has "flourished"? I seem to remember only two years ago before Christmas they were begging for donations or they will close shop. Linux and FreeBSD/OpenBSD certainly hasn't "flourished" on users' PCs either, which is the above commenter's point.
    - morganvachon 12y ago
      I didn't see anything in the parent's comment about GNU/Linux or FreeBSD on desktop PCs, nor was I talking about it on desktop PCs. The Raspberry Pi has always been meant as a learning device, a maker's toolkit, a base for building something other than a boring desktop PC. The fact that it now has the power to be a desktop PC doesn't mean that's all it will ever be. One definition (the one I was using) of "flourish" is "to develop rapidly and successfully". I stand by that description; GNU/Linux and the BSDs have seen steady improvement and rapid development surges over the past few decades. If you're claiming otherwise, I'd say look at the server statistics across the Internet. Look at mobile phone operating systems. Look anywhere but the desktop, and you'll see Free and Open Source solutions far outstripping any offering from Microsoft. I say, welcome to the party Microsoft. Again, one more channel for learning should be welcomed, not shunned because of old prejudices.
beagle3 12y ago
I would love to here the inside story here. Based on my experience with Win7 and Win8, I expect that Win10 would have crawled (or not at all worked) with the slower CPU and smaller memory. My guess would be that the Raspberry Pi 2 is, in fact, a Microsoft initiative rather than an RPi Foundation initiative - and that Microsoft have actually contributed significant funds to make this possible. Either way, that is good for the community - I don't have a problem with Microsoft financing my stuff as long as it does not come with any strings attached (which, I trust the RPi foundation to have insisted on). Pure speculation, of course - but I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about this deal.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  They seem to say Windows 10 is essentially the embedded version here, so maybe just the core or something. If it was the full desktop version, I'm pretty sure it would struggle on it. Since it's ARM, you also won't see any of the "full programs" you see on x86 platforms. Just some simple mobile apps. I don't think it's a "Microsoft initiative". Many RPi competitors have already moved to quad-core Cortex A7 chips, so it's quite predictable. But I'm actually quite disppointed by this move from the RPI Foundation. They should've skipped straight to Cortex A53. Now devs will have to support ARMv6, ARMv7 and a year or two from now ARMv8 as well.
  - beagle3 12y ago
    Only if they want top performance. They mention on the raspberry pi blog that for now, the official userland is going to stay ARMv6, and through this year they will consider how to provide ARMv7 userland if at all.
- listic 12y ago
  That makes sense. After all, they were not going to release an RPi 2 until 2017, and now - suddenly - they have a new version with Windows (version) support from the get go! http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-pi-2-targeted-for-2017-current-model-gets-upgrade http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-pi-2-t...
bambax 12y ago
Apparently "IoT" means "Internet of Things" ("Windows Developer Program for IoT"). Is this a wildly recognized acronym so that it doesn't even need a footnote? (In a Sans Serif font you can't even tell if the first letter is an i or an l; it's really bad).
- jpindar 12y ago
  Yes.
venomsnake 12y ago
Shot over the bridge in some spat with intel?
- nickhalfasleep 12y ago
  Not just Intel, I think Microsoft is aggressively interested in getting exciting hardware to consumers, and isn't going to wait for their existing big brands to deliver.
belgianguy 12y ago
I don't think Microsoft is doing it for the Open-Source spirit, as many seem to believe. They have a long history of attacking/smearing open source and displaying a "I heart Linux" slide is not sufficient to erase all the FUD and their questionable software patent licensing schemes (which are completely anti-open). They called Linux a cancer, even. I think they're approaching this from a redundancy point of view, if person X already has Windows on his desktop (on which they have the market cornered), provide them with subsidized Windows platforms on other hardware where the monopoly is not yet in place. This then would cause the interest in other platforms to dwindle, as people would flock to what they know. Here also the EET mantra could come into play again, by offering features not available to other platforms. They need a foothold in other hardware, most likely for the coming of Internet Of Things. It makes business sense for them to increase their reach, but don't think that equals Microsoft being fond of Open-Source.
- Filthy_casual 12y ago
  Can we stop with this argument? Every time a business makes a business-oriented decision someone will pop out to call them out for being acting for their own benefit, as if it's somehow bad. Like every human exchange, you don't have to be an altruist for your deed to be good. It's alright to do "good" even if it derives some sort of benefit for yourself or your company.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    Except this move only really benefits Microsoft. And it's certainly not for the "love of open source".
    - watty 12y ago
      How? It benefits me as a consumer, I'm excited to put Windows 10 on a Pi. It benefits the RPi foundation (assuming their sales go up).
    - Paradigma11 12y ago
      Why would i care what the motivations of Microsoft are? What is important is how it affects me and my interests.
benn_88 12y ago
Note: Windows 10 on Pi 2 will be an IoT platform, not a desktop OS. You'll develop your app in Visual Studio on a Windows PC and deploy it to the Pi. Raspbian will continue to be the main supported OS. - Ben from Raspberry Pi
- gambiter 12y ago
  Thanks for the clarification! You've rendered much of the debate here totally moot with just a couple sentences. *High five. :)
- reidrac 12y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. I'm not familiar with Microsoft programs and I didn't know what "IoT platform" was (in fact, didn't know that IoT was "Internet of Things").
  - joezydeco 12y ago
    This combination seems like the exact opposite of what an IoT platform should be.
- bcraven 12y ago
  I think you need to make that clearer on the webpage judging by the other replies in this thread...
- Intermernet 12y ago
  Thanks Ben, I've upvoted you as I think this should be at the top of this discussion. As others have said, it would be worth making this clear on the Raspberry Pi site, even if MS don't make it clear enough (judging by the comments) in their own brief announcement.
- xyby 12y ago
  > IoT What is that? "Internet of Things"? "Installs on Tablets"?
  - 12y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
This is awesome. Actually, I wonder if I could get ReactOS running on a Pi, might be the perfect testing platform. Hmm.
jbandela1 12y ago
I think this is awesome. For all the people that are complaining about not being open source and not friendly to hackers, the truth is probably most people that program Raspberry are not even using a native compiled language but are using Python. The people that want to hack on a kernel, can install Linux. I am really excited about the prospect of Microsoft enabling writing and debugging for the Pi using Visual Studio. They already have the feature for android in the Visual Studio 2015 Preview[1] and making it work for Raspberry Pi on running Windows should be easy. With an excellent development environment and debugger, I think interest in C/C++ programming for the Pi will be increased as it will be more accessible. [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing-native-activity-applications-for-the-android-platform.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
mathnode 12y ago
I had (optimistically) predicted the way to to ARM desktops was with Steam and gamers coming over to Linux and the majority of code bases being more portable they could cross-compile games to Linux on ARM. But this could work too!
mathnode 12y ago
I had (optimistically) predicted the way to to ARM desktops was with Steam and gamers coming over to Linux and the majority of code bases being more portable they could cross-compile games to Linux on ARM. But this could work too!
VLM 12y ago
I wonder what the redistribution license will look like. Most stuff I've used a pi for have been "copy image to flash card, install flash card, boot and run" not running apt-get or make install type commands from the console. (I'm installing an octoprint box this week, sometime, bye bye repetier-host) Historically microsoft has been a little displeased with people redistributing their software. Another issue little discussed is the intense PR campaign that it's only useful for education despite it being a pretty good generic appliance. I've never used one for education and have zero contact with that small subculture. Most pi users are using it as a low power small solid state replacement for "pull that old used desktop and slap linux on it" I wonder how the PR campaign that its an educational device will be enforced at the OS level, perhaps a watchdog timer will reboot it every hour or it'll be DRMed to heck and back requiring signatures for all executable software or who knows what could be implemented to ruin it for hobbyists without significantly impacting the edu market.
- patja 12y ago
  When you read the terms of the program, you only get one single copy of prerelease software, and the license is only good for 60 days.
Mikeb85 12y ago
Even though its Windows 10, the fact its ARM means you won't be able to run most desktop Windows software. Unlike Linux where most things have already been ported to ARM (thanks to open source!). People will discover the limitations very quickly, especially compared to Raspbian/Ubuntu/OpenSUSE/etc...
listic 12y ago
Has there been 'a version of Windows' (how is this one called, by the way?) that works on ARM, before? Does this version support any other ARM board?
- UK-AL 12y ago
  Windows could technically support loads of platforms, they just don't sell it.
- sharpneli 12y ago
  Windows RT. It was normal W8, except the W32 api could be accessed only by MS signed software so developers could use only metro.
  - ZenoArrow 12y ago
    Going back a bit you could include Windows CE alongside Windows RT if you liked. Windows Mobile as well. Is Windows Phone a version of RT?
    - frozenport 12y ago
      Windows CE is entirely different beaste, but Windows NT 3.5/4/2000 beta had support for MIPS, DEC, ALPHA, PPC, ia64.
    - bztzt 12y ago
      Windows Phone is some shared core components from Windows desktop (which RT is basically just an ARM build of) + its own stuff on top. The shared core has been growing with each release.
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
I want this to be a good thing. I probably still have some Ballmer-induced "PTSD", so I approach these things with extra skepticism (even though I like the recent changes seen at MS). More choices often means a better ecosystem. More kids hacking is a good thing. One problem that I see is that Broadcomm and peripheral makers will continue to release binary-only blobs/drivers, and the MSVS based toolchain could start to be the only way to do some of the really cool things. ie a few "killer" apps will done up and those will only be accessible on the Win/MSVS (free-as-in-bait) platform. Linux will again be relegated to the kind of blind-reverse-engineering, playing catchup, and being a second place late finisher; which we have all seen, and continue to see today. Another is that educators at the lower level will take the "easy/safe/familiar" route and teach Windows exclusively, as is the case today even into college.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
linuxlizard 12y ago
Is Windows/Pi still an astonishing pain in the ass to talk to the local hardware? Linux (Unix) /dev is the best part. I don't have to search for obscure GUIDs to talk to a USB device.
- guardian5x 12y ago
  What GUI? Windows 10 IoT comes without a GUI.
rcarmo 12y ago
Nicely played. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people in this thread equating Windows 10 for RPi with a desktop environment, though -- I'd be _very_ surprised if it had a desktop environment at all, considering that they're targeting it as an embedded system. You _might_ have graphics, but not a DE. Edited to add: based on this video, http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511, this will probably be considered as a "micro" system without any UI.
- cypher543 12y ago
  Which makes sense, considering this is part of their IoT program. Microsoft isn't porting Windows 10 to the Raspberry Pi so that kids can use it. They're doing it for developers who want something cheaper and more powerful than an Intel Edison.
z3t4 12y ago
Wasn't the goal of windows 10 to run on any system??
erjjones 12y ago
Anyone have a screenshot of Windows 10 running on the Raspberry Pi 2??? Does it actually have a GUI?
yuhong 12y ago
OT, but why did they took so long to go to ARMv7?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
alkonaut 12y ago
Cool news indeed. What is the main selling point of running windows over linux? Given that the CLR can (or will soon) run in a core version also on raspbian, what will be the main reason to choose Win10 as a base for an IoT project? Normally the case for windows over linux involves a desktop, but not in this case. Could it be that microsofts API's for IoT/Smart homes will not be part of the cross platform (core) .NET package? If so then at least this move makes sense: "use a windows IoT device and you get all these handy microsoft IoT API's".
spdustin 12y ago
I think there's too much arguing for things that kids don't give a shit about. The argument can't be, "think about the children!" The argument must be, "preserve the children's rights to think for themselves." It is on us as adults - parents, teachers, trusted elders, whatever - to instill in the kids the information needed to make decisions, and the fundamental skills to objectively utilize that information in a rational decision making process. In my humble opinion - reflected in my own choices as a parent - that means Linux (a term I use in its colloquial form, please do not nit pick on that word) on the Pi. My kids see Windows at school and at friends' homes, OS X and iOS at home, and as of today I'm taking my RPi off duty and showing it to my kids. It's a snow day, they're a captive audience! It isn't about a six year old compiling a new kernel or a teen getting a Minecraft server to run a mod, it's about creating a spirit of curiosity and experimentation.
- zanny 12y ago
  And nothing kills curiosity more than NT system calls that are undebuggable and the bureaucracy around setting up a .net development environment or even worse trying to use any other language on Windows than the .net stuff.
  - nmeofthestate 12y ago
    "What's wrong Timmy?" "This computer sucks, Dad! I tried to debug into an NT system call and it didn't work."
  - spdustin 12y ago
    And how, exactly, will a child be faced with debugging NT internals while making a game in Scratch? The educators that want to foster an interest in computing will do so in a way that's least burdensome to a child's limited attention span and desire for instant gratification. Those that want to foster an interest in writing software simply won't put Windows on the thing unless they're teaching it.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    For a certain kind of person, a 'keep out' sign is a much better motivator than getting handed the keys on a plate.
georgeecollins 12y ago
This is very smart of Microsoft and good for the Raspberry PI. All the alternative OSs for Raspberry Pi are still there, and now there is another with a huge library of software.
patja 12y ago
The devil is in the details of the licensing terms. Just like the "Windows 10 upgrades done in the first year will be free for the supported lifetime of your device" leaves a lot of wiggle room around who gets to decide what constitutes the lifetime of a device (you can be sure if you upgrade more than a few components you will get thrown out of the land of "free"), the terms of this program are not necessarily what you might expect from the PR: you get to install one single license and it is only good for 60 days!
rasz_pl 12y ago
Fantastic news. Just as positive as that time Microsoft decided to "help out" with OLPC ..... All of WinRT and Metro you would NEVER want, without that pesky Windows applications (x86) compatibility every statistical user associates with Windows brand.
Alupis 12y ago
I can't be the only person who first found out about the new Raspberry Pi here! Just ordered 2 of them!
ap0 12y ago
There's nothing wrong with learning to first code on Windows. If it is easy for a kid to get going and start making stuff, they have a much better chance of sticking with it long enough to actually be interested in it as a hobby or career. My first programming experience was VB6 on Windows 98. I went from there to C in Visual C++. Fast forward to today and I write Java on OSX that is deployed to Linux machines. Most of this stuff is pretty transferable. Starting on Windows by no means stops you from exploring Linux later. CS fundamentals can be taught on any system. Most kids don't have really technical people in their lives to get them past some of the hurdles of even getting started. I think we sometimes forget that the whole world doesn't want to be Linux gurus -- they want to be able to watch their cat videos and check their Facebook accounts. Most people don't care about the technical parts. If we can try to make the more technical parts accessible to a wider audience, I think that's moving the needle in the right direction.
- slantyyz 12y ago
  >> CS fundamentals can be taught on any system This. I don't know why a lot of people just assume that having Windows means you'll learn using Microsoft's development tools. Nothing's preventing you from choosing Apache over IIS, or Postgresql/MySQL over SQL Server Express. Most major web app development platforms run on Windows, and there are plenty of good, free text editors too.
  - dkuntz2 12y ago
    Because professors are teaching those tools, which means students are more comfortable with them / know what they are. This isn't CS fundamentals, but, at least for a good portion of CS 1 classes taught at my school, and all of the CS 2 and data structures, Visual Studio is what people are taught, with the OS X users typically using XCode. I don't know if it's better to start with IDEs or just basic text editors and compilers, but I know a lot of CS majors are going to be coming out of my school without knowing how to compile and run almost any program without clicking on the green run button in their IDE.
gamesbrainiac 12y ago
wow. Microsoft is pulling out all the stops.
orbitingpluto 12y ago
I have been using the Windows 10 preview to play around with Powershell 5. Up until the 9926 build it was a big improvement. The 9926 build is the first I've noticed that the started Windows 7 "Search Program and Files" has been replaced with "Search the computer and web". Apparently you can't turn it off. I could not find a group policy or regedit tweak to turn it off. A Microsoft support article said you cannot, period. Everything you do is a search. This default behaviour, even in Ubuntu, was what helped me switch distros. The problem with this default behaviour is that it won't fly in corporate and government environments. Any place that does a security audit will have to redo a security audit every single time a new system is placed onto their network. Microsoft seems to be moving towards the trend of easy use rather than productivity. Trying to make a child's first impression of computing being tied to Windows makes sense. But aren't there going to be issues with blatantly monitoring kids like this?
- mark-r 12y ago
  Argh! It's bad enough that the Help systems do this. If I'm going to Help, I want help the program I installed on my computer and I want it fast - don't search the entire internet for something that should be instantly available already. I really hate to see this philosophy extending to everything. I already know how to use Google to search the web.
  - nwp90 12y ago
    I noticed libreoffice doing this yesterday. Very disappointing.
brickmort 12y ago
Microsoft is playing a solid game of chess with their competitors.
jadeddrag 12y ago
If the windows source is not open, and we can't verify the builds we run, then how are we to know if the kernel and drivers, and userland apps are not tainted with NSA backdoors?
tkubacki 12y ago
hah good old MS - no single link to Rasp project - still afraid of L word.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Be brave. You can do it!
datalus 12y ago
I think this is great, everyone should learn the Win32 API as an example of how not to design an API for wanting to build applications on top of the OS.
aceperry 12y ago
This is one way for Microsoft to get into the IoT game. It'll be interesting to see if their ARM port is useable on the new Raspberry Pi.
hoodoof 12y ago
It's kind of weird Microsoft courting developers again. It's like an ex-girlfriend wants to rekindle the relationship.
BobMarz 12y ago
Interesting quotes from the CEO Eben Upton. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry...
4ydx 12y ago
The raspberry pi is supposed to be an educational tool. You cannot learn anything about the inner workings of an operating system when it is closed source. There isn't much of an argument to be made really for Microsoft on Raspberry Pi. Programming in c# can be done on Linux these days. Why one would want to use Microsoft is really beyond me.
- ps4fanboy 12y ago
  Operating system education isnt the only objective, Windows is a robust platform to learn programming and any number of other uses.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jbb555 12y ago
Well I see a lot of people already moving away from Linux due to the systemd fiasco. This gives people options so that;'s good.

723 points by velodrome 12y ago

m_mueller 12y ago

So I guess windows RT will be continued? I first thought that they're going x86-only, including the phones.

guardian5x 12y ago
There has no announcement been made to discontinue Windows on the ARM platform.
waitwaitwhay 12y ago
Supporting something like RT is a lot more than just making it compile.

ch4ch4 12y ago

I hope they get rid of the stupid code-signing requirement that's currently in RT which prevents all third-party apps from running in RT desktop mode! I'd love to be able run Chrome on a Windows ARM device...

Kwastie 12y ago
If they didn't it would defeat the sole purpose of the Raspberry Pi IMHO. (Hacking software + hardware)

teh 12y ago

It's nice to see Microsoft cares. OTOH part of the attraction of the RPi for me is that people freely share their knowledge, code and cool hacks. Adding a humongous blob of unmodifiable software doesn't really align with any of that. In the best case people will shun this, in the worst case it could harm the culture.

andyjohnson0 12y ago
I'm fairly sure that most RPi users neither modify the OS that their device is running or even look at the source code. The community-led innovation mainly happens higher up the stack, and in the hardware add-on space, and I don't see how Windows on RPi would change that. Windows on RPi is unlikely to ever be mainstream, so anyone using Windows-specific features on software would have to accept that their code would be interesting to only a small minority of other RPi users. Meta: Why all the anti-MS cynicism on the threads for this topic? Isn't it kind of old now? (Edit: Added "...unlikely to ever be mainstream...")
- GauntletWizard 12y ago
  Because Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is older than dirt. Microsoft had a long habit of adopting public standards, adding proprietary extensions, and then smothering the standard by making their extensions intentionally obtuse and hard to interoperate with. I don't honestly see how they could do such with the Pi, but I'm honestly not awful enough to see all the nasty possibilities. From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative. How this fits into a Microsoft sales plan, I don't see; It might be somebody's pet project based on their child's interest in a Pi (As was basically the origin of the Zune and Kinect; I know the sales guys who responsible for allowing those to be engineered). Regardless, I expect it to be a redheaded stepchild, because it's sales potential is not proven.
  - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
    > From a different perspective: As someone who until recently lived in Washington, Microsoft's management stack hasn't changed. It is still a very Sales-driven organization, with very little leeway given to Engineering to drive things that are useful, interesting, or innovative. You say you lived in Washington, are you implying you were a Microsoft employee? Seems from everyone I'm hearing from that they've been making major structure changes for a while now and a lot of the old management has been shuffled or removed (especially with those huge rounds of layoffs) so I'm curious as to why I'm hearing something different from what you're saying.

hfaran 12y ago

Out of all of the exciting news coming from Redmond this past year, this has somehow taken the cake for me. In 2013, even suggesting Windows on Raspberry Pi could be a possibility would've gotten you laughed out of the room, and for it now to be actually happening made me take more than a few double-takes.

anom9999 12y ago
It's not that surprising news. NT has supported ARM for a few years now and the Raspberry Pi 2 is a pretty beefy board - all things considered.
- joosters 12y ago
  Actually Microsoft seemed to be backing away from ARM support. They have abandoned Windows 10 for existing Windows RT devices, for instance.
  - egil 12y ago
    That is probably because Surface RT has pretty much been rejected by the market. There is no business in beating a dead horse.
sjogress 12y ago
At least in my group of friends this was joked about as late as yesterday. Definitely impressive of Microsoft and the RPI guys. I'm looking forward to trying it out for myself.
supercoder 12y ago
I dunno, Windows has always seemed to enjoy running on cheap hardware.
- psykovsky 12y ago
  Linux also. From the consumer market, only OS X/iOS demands over-priced hardware to run.

databass 12y ago

Does anyone know what they mean when they say "grounded in trust"? (Seems odd to imply that other OSes are not trustworthy.) Referring to code signing, perhaps?

SixSigma 12y ago
New Breakfast Flakes - Asbestos Free http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCereal http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsbestosFreeCerea...

danbruc 12y ago

Okay, come on! Who are you? And what did you do to Microsoft?

comboy 12y ago

OK, Microsoft somehow got its sh*t together. I've been seeing them on local programming conferences (in Poland!), they started caring about open source, this company may still have a bright future.

cm2187 12y ago

I hope it will support the .net framework. That would make it really accessible to unsophisticated hobbyists like me! There are very few things one can't do with a USB port!

SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
Mono runs on existing raspis right now. So this looks very possible.

castell 12y ago

Next step, Microsoft announces FX!32 for Win10 ARM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32 FX!32 is a software emulator program that allows Win32 programs built for the Intel x86 instruction set to execute on DEC Alpha-based systems running Windows NT.

trentnelson 12y ago
Hey, I could put Windows 10 on my DEC^WHP^WCompaq ES40!

secfirstmd 12y ago

This is great. Especially for the developing world where the Pi has great potential but people only really want to use and learn in a Windows environment.

masterzoozoo 12y ago

Awesome news to hear. But I am not sure how far it will be compatible with the low resources on a Raspberry Pi.

patja 12y ago
The just announced supercharged pi model should handle it.

bohol 12y ago

Somewhat surprised that there are around 20 comments and all of the seem to be from more or less a consumer perspective. The Raspberry Pi is one of the few embedded devices with aspires to be used as a desktop computer and on top of that as a way to learn computers. Embedded systems is also one of the few threats to Windows, but this hasn't really materialized yet since most devices only comes with android drivers. All in all it's a great strategic move for Microsoft and confirms my suspicion that Linux is losing the second round of the desktop wars.

MoOmer 12y ago
Once you consider that the version for the Rpi2 is an 'IoT' system, and not a desktop OS, this comment becomes irrelevant.
- bohol 12y ago
  Considering that what you consider 'IoT' and what Microsoft considers 'IoT' isn't the same thing it might be your comment that is irrelevant. http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-whatisit-140607104402-phpapp01/95/iot-what-is-it-18-638.jpg http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iot-whatisit-140607104402-php...

20kleagues 12y ago

IoT devices running Windows 10. So I guess my coffee machine will also have the blue screen of death (BSOD) now. Jokes aside, strategic move by Microsoft. The new CEO has some interesting stuff in mind indeed. Can't wait for the build conference where they open the HoloLens dev tools.

tkmcc 12y ago
That's not a joke: quite a few coffee machines around the Microsoft campus run embedded Windows, including one in the recruiting building's reception lounge.
- riskable 12y ago
  Have these windows coffee machines ever produced the bad coffee of death though?

marknadal 12y ago

Could somebody explain how this is possible, given RAM and CPU constraints? Like, does W10 actually run with that small of a footprint it works on a Raspberry Pi 2?

lovelearning 12y ago
Conceptually, it's just like Windows 8 can run both on a desktop as well as a Lumia phone. I'm not sure whether they actually share parts of the codebase (like the linux kernel does), or it's just some common UI elements like tiles + shared brand name on top of wildly different kernels.
- guardian5x 12y ago
  In fact they use the NT-Kernel for Windows Phone as well. [1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-fina...
  - lovelearning 12y ago
    That is indeed very informative, thanks! "...the Windows Phone OS will include the same file system (NTFS), same networking stack, same security elements, graphics engine (DirectX), device driver framework and hardware abstraction layer (HAL) as big Windows." I hadn't realized they share so much. If this statement holds true for the upcoming Windows 10, then it's probably the very first time DirectX is running on any SBC. I wonder if Broadcom have made some changes to VideoCore GPU to support DirectX.
pietro 12y ago
The RP2 is a pretty decent machine compared to the historical PCs that Windows was designed for.
raesene4 12y ago
Not sure about CPU but you can get Windows 8.1 devices with 1GB of RAM which run fine (and that's full desktop 8.1, not a cut down IoT build that this is likely to be) For me it's the lower limit of what's possible and it's slow if you load up many apps, but definitely possible.

alisnic 12y ago

I was waiting for a long time for something like that. Now I will be able to make a very cheap parents' pc

tegeek 12y ago

I personally want a trimmed down version of .NET (perhaps the new Core CLR which is just 10 MB) so I can run F#. Mono is too heavy and have millions other dependencies I dont want to grab. Running a modern & practical functional language on RB Pi will be extremely joyful for me.

FlyingSnake 12y ago
Does .Net micro framework fit the bill? http://www.netmf.com/ http://www.netmf.com/
- josteink 12y ago
  Last I checked, Micro is too small and lacks crucial things you want for everyday development, and that is for a normal developer, not a language runtime-designer. It was targeted mostly towards very low-specced hardware, closer to a Arduino than a Pi. I'm guessing things like F# relies on too much things which are not included here.
- Sanddancer 12y ago
  Micro's interpreted, and is missing a lot of the bits and pieces of .NET that make it a real nice platform to work with. So you end up with something slow, and a fairly limited standard library.
akoeplinger 12y ago
fsharp on Ubuntu with Mono dependencies: sudo apt-get install fsharp [...] Need to get 22.2 MB of archives. After this operation, 66.0 MB of additional disk space will be used. Personally, I wouldn't call that heavy. Remember that the 10MB figure for CoreCLR you give is just for the runtime alone, it doesn't include any class libraries. The Mono runtime is in the same ballpark.

mantenpanther 12y ago

I can't see this working, hence windows is not exactly a lean OS. Coinincidently I'm stuck in an update/reboot cycle at the moment after a fresh install. Also i need to extend my partion of 60GB after just installing the OS (8.1) to get Visual Studio installed (which will also take at least 10GB). I like the new direction of MS, but i wonder if it's possible to succeed with so much old baggage to carry...

lisnake 12y ago
Their current running WindowsOnDevices program showcases Microsoft's developer preview of a new, tiny version of Windows that runs on small CPU-based devices like the Intel Galileo dev board. I'm sure they are aiming for something similar for RPi2 (it's obviosly impractical to run full scale Windows 10 on such underpowered devices)
teh_klev 12y ago
You don't have to install Visual Studio on your system drive, it'll happily install and run on another drive.
UK-AL 12y ago
The core of windows is tiny, its all the other stuff that makes it big.

danieldk 12y ago

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Although .NET is slowly opening up, Windows is closed as ever. So, it does not actually let you check out how stuff works: looking up that function in the Python standard library, seeing how it calls libc, and then diving into libc to see how it is actually implemented. It's in Microsoft interest to keep kids in their ecosystem, which has been pretty much unproblematic in the nineties and before the smart phone revolution. As the RPi becomes more popular in education, it would be bad for them when kids see that there is something else that not only works well, but also allows them to do more. My fear is that teachers will now choose for Windows on the RPi, since that is what they know. And we are back to where we started: a fundamentally unhackable system. Now, if Microsoft would open up the core of Windows. I would be impressed. Now? Not so.

nmeofthestate 12y ago
"Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves" "Windows is closed as ever" Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers.
- beagle3 12y ago
  There have been quite a few projects that did hack the kernel and drivers directly. The majority of users are actually running XBMC on the Pi, and they don't care if it's linux or windows. But the early adopters do care, and they are all Linux people.
  - nmeofthestate 12y ago

cliffbean 12y ago

While most people don't hack kernel code themselves, there is still value in promoting open source operating systems. A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code.

morganvachon 12y ago
> A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code. I just can't agree with that. F/OSS fan that I am, I still think the same opportunities will exist whether Windows runs on a particular piece of hardware or not. After all, GNU/Linux and BSD have flourished despite Windows running on the same hardware for the past 30 years. How is this any different? I see it as opening up new channels for learning, not closing them off. To look at it another way, this is similar to Microsoft being late to the party on modern smartphones. The existence of Windows Phone 7 and 8 has done absolutely nothing to slow down the explosion of popularity in Android and iOS phones. I don't foresee a huge percentage of Raspberry Pi owners jumping ship to Windows 10; maybe dabbling with it but that's it. As far as we know, GNU/Linux will continue to offer a superior learning experience.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  FreeBSD has "flourished"? I seem to remember only two years ago before Christmas they were begging for donations or they will close shop. Linux and FreeBSD/OpenBSD certainly hasn't "flourished" on users' PCs either, which is the above commenter's point.
  - morganvachon 12y ago
    I didn't see anything in the parent's comment about GNU/Linux or FreeBSD on desktop PCs, nor was I talking about it on desktop PCs. The Raspberry Pi has always been meant as a learning device, a maker's toolkit, a base for building something other than a boring desktop PC. The fact that it now has the power to be a desktop PC doesn't mean that's all it will ever be. One definition (the one I was using) of "flourish" is "to develop rapidly and successfully". I stand by that description; GNU/Linux and the BSDs have seen steady improvement and rapid development surges over the past few decades. If you're claiming otherwise, I'd say look at the server statistics across the Internet. Look at mobile phone operating systems. Look anywhere but the desktop, and you'll see Free and Open Source solutions far outstripping any offering from Microsoft. I say, welcome to the party Microsoft. Again, one more channel for learning should be welcomed, not shunned because of old prejudices.

beagle3 12y ago

I would love to here the inside story here. Based on my experience with Win7 and Win8, I expect that Win10 would have crawled (or not at all worked) with the slower CPU and smaller memory. My guess would be that the Raspberry Pi 2 is, in fact, a Microsoft initiative rather than an RPi Foundation initiative - and that Microsoft have actually contributed significant funds to make this possible. Either way, that is good for the community - I don't have a problem with Microsoft financing my stuff as long as it does not come with any strings attached (which, I trust the RPi foundation to have insisted on). Pure speculation, of course - but I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about this deal.

higherpurpose 12y ago
They seem to say Windows 10 is essentially the embedded version here, so maybe just the core or something. If it was the full desktop version, I'm pretty sure it would struggle on it. Since it's ARM, you also won't see any of the "full programs" you see on x86 platforms. Just some simple mobile apps. I don't think it's a "Microsoft initiative". Many RPi competitors have already moved to quad-core Cortex A7 chips, so it's quite predictable. But I'm actually quite disppointed by this move from the RPI Foundation. They should've skipped straight to Cortex A53. Now devs will have to support ARMv6, ARMv7 and a year or two from now ARMv8 as well.
- beagle3 12y ago
  Only if they want top performance. They mention on the raspberry pi blog that for now, the official userland is going to stay ARMv6, and through this year they will consider how to provide ARMv7 userland if at all.
listic 12y ago
That makes sense. After all, they were not going to release an RPi 2 until 2017, and now - suddenly - they have a new version with Windows (version) support from the get go! http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-pi-2-targeted-for-2017-current-model-gets-upgrade http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186263-raspberry-pi-2-t...

bambax 12y ago

Apparently "IoT" means "Internet of Things" ("Windows Developer Program for IoT"). Is this a wildly recognized acronym so that it doesn't even need a footnote? (In a Sans Serif font you can't even tell if the first letter is an i or an l; it's really bad).

jpindar 12y ago
Yes.

venomsnake 12y ago

Shot over the bridge in some spat with intel?

nickhalfasleep 12y ago
Not just Intel, I think Microsoft is aggressively interested in getting exciting hardware to consumers, and isn't going to wait for their existing big brands to deliver.

belgianguy 12y ago

I don't think Microsoft is doing it for the Open-Source spirit, as many seem to believe. They have a long history of attacking/smearing open source and displaying a "I heart Linux" slide is not sufficient to erase all the FUD and their questionable software patent licensing schemes (which are completely anti-open). They called Linux a cancer, even. I think they're approaching this from a redundancy point of view, if person X already has Windows on his desktop (on which they have the market cornered), provide them with subsidized Windows platforms on other hardware where the monopoly is not yet in place. This then would cause the interest in other platforms to dwindle, as people would flock to what they know. Here also the EET mantra could come into play again, by offering features not available to other platforms. They need a foothold in other hardware, most likely for the coming of Internet Of Things. It makes business sense for them to increase their reach, but don't think that equals Microsoft being fond of Open-Source.

Filthy_casual 12y ago
Can we stop with this argument? Every time a business makes a business-oriented decision someone will pop out to call them out for being acting for their own benefit, as if it's somehow bad. Like every human exchange, you don't have to be an altruist for your deed to be good. It's alright to do "good" even if it derives some sort of benefit for yourself or your company.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Except this move only really benefits Microsoft. And it's certainly not for the "love of open source".
  - watty 12y ago
    How? It benefits me as a consumer, I'm excited to put Windows 10 on a Pi. It benefits the RPi foundation (assuming their sales go up).
  - Paradigma11 12y ago
    Why would i care what the motivations of Microsoft are? What is important is how it affects me and my interests.

benn_88 12y ago

Note: Windows 10 on Pi 2 will be an IoT platform, not a desktop OS. You'll develop your app in Visual Studio on a Windows PC and deploy it to the Pi. Raspbian will continue to be the main supported OS. - Ben from Raspberry Pi

gambiter 12y ago
Thanks for the clarification! You've rendered much of the debate here totally moot with just a couple sentences. *High five. :)
reidrac 12y ago
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not familiar with Microsoft programs and I didn't know what "IoT platform" was (in fact, didn't know that IoT was "Internet of Things").
- joezydeco 12y ago
  This combination seems like the exact opposite of what an IoT platform should be.
bcraven 12y ago
I think you need to make that clearer on the webpage judging by the other replies in this thread...
Intermernet 12y ago
Thanks Ben, I've upvoted you as I think this should be at the top of this discussion. As others have said, it would be worth making this clear on the Raspberry Pi site, even if MS don't make it clear enough (judging by the comments) in their own brief announcement.
xyby 12y ago
> IoT What is that? "Internet of Things"? "Installs on Tablets"?
- 12y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago

This is awesome. Actually, I wonder if I could get ReactOS running on a Pi, might be the perfect testing platform. Hmm.

jbandela1 12y ago

I think this is awesome. For all the people that are complaining about not being open source and not friendly to hackers, the truth is probably most people that program Raspberry are not even using a native compiled language but are using Python. The people that want to hack on a kernel, can install Linux. I am really excited about the prospect of Microsoft enabling writing and debugging for the Pi using Visual Studio. They already have the feature for android in the Visual Studio 2015 Preview[1] and making it work for Raspberry Pi on running Windows should be easy. With an excellent development environment and debugger, I think interest in C/C++ programming for the Pi will be increased as it will be more accessible. [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing-native-activity-applications-for-the-android-platform.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

mathnode 12y ago

I had (optimistically) predicted the way to to ARM desktops was with Steam and gamers coming over to Linux and the majority of code bases being more portable they could cross-compile games to Linux on ARM. But this could work too!

mathnode 12y ago

VLM 12y ago

I wonder what the redistribution license will look like. Most stuff I've used a pi for have been "copy image to flash card, install flash card, boot and run" not running apt-get or make install type commands from the console. (I'm installing an octoprint box this week, sometime, bye bye repetier-host) Historically microsoft has been a little displeased with people redistributing their software. Another issue little discussed is the intense PR campaign that it's only useful for education despite it being a pretty good generic appliance. I've never used one for education and have zero contact with that small subculture. Most pi users are using it as a low power small solid state replacement for "pull that old used desktop and slap linux on it" I wonder how the PR campaign that its an educational device will be enforced at the OS level, perhaps a watchdog timer will reboot it every hour or it'll be DRMed to heck and back requiring signatures for all executable software or who knows what could be implemented to ruin it for hobbyists without significantly impacting the edu market.

patja 12y ago
When you read the terms of the program, you only get one single copy of prerelease software, and the license is only good for 60 days.

Mikeb85 12y ago

Even though its Windows 10, the fact its ARM means you won't be able to run most desktop Windows software. Unlike Linux where most things have already been ported to ARM (thanks to open source!). People will discover the limitations very quickly, especially compared to Raspbian/Ubuntu/OpenSUSE/etc...

listic 12y ago

Has there been 'a version of Windows' (how is this one called, by the way?) that works on ARM, before? Does this version support any other ARM board?

UK-AL 12y ago
Windows could technically support loads of platforms, they just don't sell it.
sharpneli 12y ago
Windows RT. It was normal W8, except the W32 api could be accessed only by MS signed software so developers could use only metro.
- ZenoArrow 12y ago
  Going back a bit you could include Windows CE alongside Windows RT if you liked. Windows Mobile as well. Is Windows Phone a version of RT?
  - frozenport 12y ago
    Windows CE is entirely different beaste, but Windows NT 3.5/4/2000 beta had support for MIPS, DEC, ALPHA, PPC, ia64.
  - bztzt 12y ago
    Windows Phone is some shared core components from Windows desktop (which RT is basically just an ARM build of) + its own stuff on top. The shared core has been growing with each release.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

I want this to be a good thing. I probably still have some Ballmer-induced "PTSD", so I approach these things with extra skepticism (even though I like the recent changes seen at MS). More choices often means a better ecosystem. More kids hacking is a good thing. One problem that I see is that Broadcomm and peripheral makers will continue to release binary-only blobs/drivers, and the MSVS based toolchain could start to be the only way to do some of the really cool things. ie a few "killer" apps will done up and those will only be accessible on the Win/MSVS (free-as-in-bait) platform. Linux will again be relegated to the kind of blind-reverse-engineering, playing catchup, and being a second place late finisher; which we have all seen, and continue to see today. Another is that educators at the lower level will take the "easy/safe/familiar" route and teach Windows exclusively, as is the case today even into college.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

linuxlizard 12y ago

Is Windows/Pi still an astonishing pain in the ass to talk to the local hardware? Linux (Unix) /dev is the best part. I don't have to search for obscure GUIDs to talk to a USB device.

guardian5x 12y ago
What GUI? Windows 10 IoT comes without a GUI.

rcarmo 12y ago

Nicely played. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people in this thread equating Windows 10 for RPi with a desktop environment, though -- I'd be _very_ surprised if it had a desktop environment at all, considering that they're targeting it as an embedded system. You _might_ have graphics, but not a DE. Edited to add: based on this video, http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-511, this will probably be considered as a "micro" system without any UI.

cypher543 12y ago
Which makes sense, considering this is part of their IoT program. Microsoft isn't porting Windows 10 to the Raspberry Pi so that kids can use it. They're doing it for developers who want something cheaper and more powerful than an Intel Edison.

z3t4 12y ago

Wasn't the goal of windows 10 to run on any system??

erjjones 12y ago

Anyone have a screenshot of Windows 10 running on the Raspberry Pi 2??? Does it actually have a GUI?

yuhong 12y ago

OT, but why did they took so long to go to ARMv7?

deleted 12y ago
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alkonaut 12y ago

Cool news indeed. What is the main selling point of running windows over linux? Given that the CLR can (or will soon) run in a core version also on raspbian, what will be the main reason to choose Win10 as a base for an IoT project? Normally the case for windows over linux involves a desktop, but not in this case. Could it be that microsofts API's for IoT/Smart homes will not be part of the cross platform (core) .NET package? If so then at least this move makes sense: "use a windows IoT device and you get all these handy microsoft IoT API's".

spdustin 12y ago

I think there's too much arguing for things that kids don't give a shit about. The argument can't be, "think about the children!" The argument must be, "preserve the children's rights to think for themselves." It is on us as adults - parents, teachers, trusted elders, whatever - to instill in the kids the information needed to make decisions, and the fundamental skills to objectively utilize that information in a rational decision making process. In my humble opinion - reflected in my own choices as a parent - that means Linux (a term I use in its colloquial form, please do not nit pick on that word) on the Pi. My kids see Windows at school and at friends' homes, OS X and iOS at home, and as of today I'm taking my RPi off duty and showing it to my kids. It's a snow day, they're a captive audience! It isn't about a six year old compiling a new kernel or a teen getting a Minecraft server to run a mod, it's about creating a spirit of curiosity and experimentation.

zanny 12y ago
And nothing kills curiosity more than NT system calls that are undebuggable and the bureaucracy around setting up a .net development environment or even worse trying to use any other language on Windows than the .net stuff.
- nmeofthestate 12y ago
  "What's wrong Timmy?" "This computer sucks, Dad! I tried to debug into an NT system call and it didn't work."
- spdustin 12y ago
  And how, exactly, will a child be faced with debugging NT internals while making a game in Scratch? The educators that want to foster an interest in computing will do so in a way that's least burdensome to a child's limited attention span and desire for instant gratification. Those that want to foster an interest in writing software simply won't put Windows on the thing unless they're teaching it.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  For a certain kind of person, a 'keep out' sign is a much better motivator than getting handed the keys on a plate.

georgeecollins 12y ago

This is very smart of Microsoft and good for the Raspberry PI. All the alternative OSs for Raspberry Pi are still there, and now there is another with a huge library of software.

patja 12y ago

The devil is in the details of the licensing terms. Just like the "Windows 10 upgrades done in the first year will be free for the supported lifetime of your device" leaves a lot of wiggle room around who gets to decide what constitutes the lifetime of a device (you can be sure if you upgrade more than a few components you will get thrown out of the land of "free"), the terms of this program are not necessarily what you might expect from the PR: you get to install one single license and it is only good for 60 days!

rasz_pl 12y ago

Fantastic news. Just as positive as that time Microsoft decided to "help out" with OLPC ..... All of WinRT and Metro you would NEVER want, without that pesky Windows applications (x86) compatibility every statistical user associates with Windows brand.

Alupis 12y ago

I can't be the only person who first found out about the new Raspberry Pi here! Just ordered 2 of them!

ap0 12y ago

There's nothing wrong with learning to first code on Windows. If it is easy for a kid to get going and start making stuff, they have a much better chance of sticking with it long enough to actually be interested in it as a hobby or career. My first programming experience was VB6 on Windows 98. I went from there to C in Visual C++. Fast forward to today and I write Java on OSX that is deployed to Linux machines. Most of this stuff is pretty transferable. Starting on Windows by no means stops you from exploring Linux later. CS fundamentals can be taught on any system. Most kids don't have really technical people in their lives to get them past some of the hurdles of even getting started. I think we sometimes forget that the whole world doesn't want to be Linux gurus -- they want to be able to watch their cat videos and check their Facebook accounts. Most people don't care about the technical parts. If we can try to make the more technical parts accessible to a wider audience, I think that's moving the needle in the right direction.

slantyyz 12y ago
>> CS fundamentals can be taught on any system This. I don't know why a lot of people just assume that having Windows means you'll learn using Microsoft's development tools. Nothing's preventing you from choosing Apache over IIS, or Postgresql/MySQL over SQL Server Express. Most major web app development platforms run on Windows, and there are plenty of good, free text editors too.
- dkuntz2 12y ago
  Because professors are teaching those tools, which means students are more comfortable with them / know what they are. This isn't CS fundamentals, but, at least for a good portion of CS 1 classes taught at my school, and all of the CS 2 and data structures, Visual Studio is what people are taught, with the OS X users typically using XCode. I don't know if it's better to start with IDEs or just basic text editors and compilers, but I know a lot of CS majors are going to be coming out of my school without knowing how to compile and run almost any program without clicking on the green run button in their IDE.

gamesbrainiac 12y ago

wow. Microsoft is pulling out all the stops.

orbitingpluto 12y ago

I have been using the Windows 10 preview to play around with Powershell 5. Up until the 9926 build it was a big improvement. The 9926 build is the first I've noticed that the started Windows 7 "Search Program and Files" has been replaced with "Search the computer and web". Apparently you can't turn it off. I could not find a group policy or regedit tweak to turn it off. A Microsoft support article said you cannot, period. Everything you do is a search. This default behaviour, even in Ubuntu, was what helped me switch distros. The problem with this default behaviour is that it won't fly in corporate and government environments. Any place that does a security audit will have to redo a security audit every single time a new system is placed onto their network. Microsoft seems to be moving towards the trend of easy use rather than productivity. Trying to make a child's first impression of computing being tied to Windows makes sense. But aren't there going to be issues with blatantly monitoring kids like this?

mark-r 12y ago
Argh! It's bad enough that the Help systems do this. If I'm going to Help, I want help the program I installed on my computer and I want it fast - don't search the entire internet for something that should be instantly available already. I really hate to see this philosophy extending to everything. I already know how to use Google to search the web.
- nwp90 12y ago
  I noticed libreoffice doing this yesterday. Very disappointing.

brickmort 12y ago

Microsoft is playing a solid game of chess with their competitors.

jadeddrag 12y ago

If the windows source is not open, and we can't verify the builds we run, then how are we to know if the kernel and drivers, and userland apps are not tainted with NSA backdoors?

tkubacki 12y ago

hah good old MS - no single link to Rasp project - still afraid of L word.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
Be brave. You can do it!

datalus 12y ago

I think this is great, everyone should learn the Win32 API as an example of how not to design an API for wanting to build applications on top of the OS.

aceperry 12y ago

This is one way for Microsoft to get into the IoT game. It'll be interesting to see if their ARM port is useable on the new Raspberry Pi.

hoodoof 12y ago

It's kind of weird Microsoft courting developers again. It's like an ex-girlfriend wants to rekindle the relationship.

BobMarz 12y ago

Interesting quotes from the CEO Eben Upton. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry...

4ydx 12y ago

The raspberry pi is supposed to be an educational tool. You cannot learn anything about the inner workings of an operating system when it is closed source. There isn't much of an argument to be made really for Microsoft on Raspberry Pi. Programming in c# can be done on Linux these days. Why one would want to use Microsoft is really beyond me.

ps4fanboy 12y ago
Operating system education isnt the only objective, Windows is a robust platform to learn programming and any number of other uses.

deleted 12y ago

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jbb555 12y ago

Well I see a lot of people already moving away from Linux due to the systemd fiasco. This gives people options so that;'s good.