21 ms·

“Vacations are for the weak”

• glesica 13y ago
  It is unfortunate that so many people are stuck in jobs that don't offer sufficient time off. It seems fairly common for employees to "start"* with just two weeks of paid time off (and many, I think, even lack access to unpaid leave for non-medical reasons). One might argue that two weeks is sufficient for a week-long vacation every six months, but most people I know use most of their time off for family obligations and "work outside of work" like home repairs. This is a crap situation. * Quotes because it is becoming less and less common to work for a company for decades, so the traditional system of awarding vacation based on length of tenure is becoming more and more insane. How many people never even get past the initial level of paid time off before switching jobs?
  • pionar 13y ago
    However accurate I think you are, I think the point of the article was that one shouldn't feel guilty for taking time off. I know that every time I do, I feel extremely guilty.
    • acadien 13y ago
      When I take vacation I get anxious if I haven't touched a computer in 24 hours, although it goes away after a couple of days. The worst part is coming back from vacation, often can't sleep or work effectively the first week back because of the stress I've had about not working. I'm sure something like this is universal, no one likes coming back from vacation but I wonder if there is a way to avoid it.
      • saryant 13y ago
        That re-entry stress can be killer. I recently took 3.5 weeks off to travel around Japan and I didn't take a laptop. The company I work for was okay with that but when I got back my work seriously suffered for about two weeks. It just took me that long to get back into things. I'd lost a lot of those "unsaid practices" that tend to accumulate.
      • mixmastamyk 13y ago
        That means the vacation probably wasn't long enough. It takes at least two weeks to really clear your head. If you're really that stressed about not/working you could really use 3-6 months off. I do it every 3 years or so am not "rich."
      • HarryHirsch 13y ago
        Because of the stress I've had about not working Dude, it's a fine prison you built for yourself. This from a guy in tech, tech being one of the few areas where labour supposedly still has negotiating power.
        • acadien 13y ago
          I'm in the final year of my PhD, but yes I agree I should probably look into better ways of handling work. I'm thinking of changing things after finishing, this is not a good way to live life.
          • afterburner 13y ago
            Oh, a PhD... well that's different, yes, a grad student always feels like they should be working on their thesis. I've done this, and regret not taking a month off once for a trip. I wouldn't have had a hard time with it once I was actually on the trip, but I couldn't justify taking it in the first place. Productivity-wise probably would have been close to a wash.
      • deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  • mikestew 13y ago
    I can't think of any place I've worked in the last 15 years that didn't start with at least three weeks vacation and a couple weeks sick time. Then again, I may be just self-filtering out those places by not even interviewing at the kind of place that would give two weeks vacation. 'cause if we got to the offer stage and I was offered two weeks vacation, I'd laugh and walk out.
    • prawks 13y ago
      A lot of jobs out there give 2 weeks PTO to entry-level employees. It's mainly "blue collar" (for lack of a better term) jobs like trades (I suspect due to many being smaller family-owned "Father & Sons" businesses), or jobs with very low barrier to entry for applicants (no degree requirements/past experience, for example). A large portion of my extended family works in retail where 2 weeks is pretty standard for entry-level positions. It's tenure-based all the way.
      • aneisf 13y ago
        Dang, I work in software and get a week every year--not including Year 1.
        • yread 13y ago
          Are you sure that you work in software and not cotton plantation in 18th century? Have you thought about coming over to Europe? I have 52 days off
          • aneisf 13y ago
            Ah, I wish. I'm not in a financial position to relocate to even a better US city right now. In time, perhaps.
            • mcb3k 13y ago
              Some employers offer relocation assistance. So, if you find a position that you think you'd be a better fit for or would enjoy more, but it's far away from where you live now, you may want to ask about that.
  • Touche 13y ago
    Yes, also there tends to be a stigma against using vacation time until you've been at a job for a while. You might have worked for 6 months but the other people in the company still see you as the new guy. This stigma, coupled with changing jobs semi-frequently has led me to not having a week-off vacation for over 2 years. And before that it was probably another 2 since my previous one. I have taken a few long-weekends though. Point is, there's always a reason to hold off on the vacation and waiting for the "perfect timing" isn't a good idea.
    • michaelochurch 13y ago
      The problem is that it's hard for most people to tell if someone's capable and belongs on the team in the first few months. Since ability and contribution are hard to measure, most human groups assess people based on shared suffering ("being a team player"). That creates a lot of the vacation-hostility that, after a while, people start internalizing. It's ridiculously stupid and utterly counterproductive. Total productivity is actually maximized (for most of the work we do) around 6 weeks off per year.
      • jorgem 13y ago
        > Total productivity is actually maximized (for most of the work we do) around 6 weeks off per year. How do you measure this?
    • byoung2 13y ago
      This stigma, coupled with changing jobs semi-frequently has led me to not having a week-off vacation for over 2 years Pro tip from someone who has worked for 4 companies in 6 years, and taken 6 weeks per year of vacation: once you have been offered the job, tell them you have a vacation already planned (approved by your last job) and it can't be rescheduled. This gets you an exemption from rules like no vacation during the first 6 months of employment, and it sometimes also lets you get your 2 weeks upfront, instead of having to accrue them. This is also your opportunity to get a longer vacation approved (e.g. my last job offered 3 weeks, or I had 3 weeks banked up that I had to use).
  • michaelochurch 13y ago
    The EU mandates a 20-day minimum. A country that doesn't require 20 days of vacation (and not the pooled bullshit that combines sick leave and vacation) can't get into the EU. In that context, a 2 week per year limit is positively inexcusable in 2013, when the civilized world (which the US ought to join, but hasn't; see also, health insurance) knows better.
    • _delirium 13y ago
      The gap is even bigger if you consider that most EU countries also have ~2 weeks of fixed statutory holidays that aren't included in the 20 days, while most U.S. companies give only between 0 and 3 "free" fixed holidays (Thanksgiving and Christmas are the most common; sometimes there's a 3rd floating one that can be used for a holiday of the employee's choice, such as Yom Kippur or Good Friday). So more or less all Europeans get at least 6 weeks off per year. In the wealthier EU countries it's often 7 or 8, if you count both fixed and movable vacation (e.g. the legal minimum in Denmark is 5 weeks movable + 9 fixed days).
      • derekp7 13y ago
        Almost all the companies I've worked for gave Christmas Day, New years day, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Memorial, and Labor days. Many also through in Christmas Eve, and day after Thanksgiving, plus 2 floating holidays. One thing I'm not sure how I feel about, is the combined sick/vacation PTO -- you end up with a larger number of days that you can use as vacation, but usually a smaller number of days overall (my current company is 18 days total PTO, previous company was 5 weeks). This works out great for people like me, who never need to take sick days (if I have a bad cold, I can work from home usually). Now what would work really good (and what I think my current company had before I started), is one vacation pool, which us use when you are going to be off for 2 or more consecutive days, and a separate large pool of PTO days for either under-the-weather days, actual illnesses, or "fix the garage door / wait for Cable installer" days. Another thing to look for, is how the vacation is rolled over. The best is where you earn X.something hours every paycheck, and can be sitting at any one time on what you would earn in 2 years. So a previous employer (Motorola) gave me 3 weeks a year, but I was always sitting on 6 weeks available until I had to take some time off to avoid losing new accumulation.
  • cookiecaper 13y ago
    I think it's true that we're stuck in an uncanny valley between the old ways of lifelong employer/employee commitment and the more modern ways of transitive, as-needed-type employment. The old way was always dangerous, but there was a strong social expectation that you'd take care of your people. Now no one has "people" any more per se, so the social expectations of committed employment have dissipated. However, I _don't_ think the answer to this is to depend on companies to issue more vacation time. That's expensive for everyone, and it's hard for little guys to compete with the bigger guys who can afford to pay 6-12 weeks of salary to someone who isn't working. The answer, I think, is for each individual to take more individual responsibility, save their money, work in contracted increments, and go on vacation between contracts. We should complete the transition and get out of the uncanny valley.
    • mackwic 13y ago
      And only the executives and high-end employees will be able to save money for vacations. Brilliant. Strongly disagree with you when you say that no one can pay 6 weeks of vacations, using this as an argument to say "no one can pay vacations at all". It's clearly the question of our social model that you are asking and I will say that: the social model I want for me, my children, and the others, is a world where you don't have to sell yourself as a work slave if you don't want. Paid vacations are not perfect, they are expensive, but they also are a not so bad approximation of a world where you can live your life outside of the work if you want (at least periodically).
      • matwood 13y ago
        Actually vacations are more affordable than ever with the rise of companies like AirBnB and other VRBO websites.
    • glesica 13y ago
      That would be nice, but as long as healthcare is also tied to employment, it won't happen. Those same people who have their time off eaten up by obligations generally can't afford to be without health insurance for two weeks every few months. Additionally, they can't justify paying for private health insurance when their employer forces them to accept its own coverage (and won't give them the cash equivalent). Also, I think that while "contract" employment is nice for programmers, there are a large number of jobs (majority?) for which that simply doesn't make much sense because it increases training costs for employers. It is still, to this day, very common for employers to look for employees who plan to stick around for awhile. They want the best of both worlds, basically, long-term employees who can be laid off at a moment's notice.
  • derekp7 13y ago
    Here's a tip that a lot of people don't realize. When negotiating salary, quite often you if they won't give you what you want in pay, you can probably squeeze an additional week or two time off. Esp. if they are trying to head-hunt you from somewhere else, and if you've been working for a number of years/decades.
    • afterburner 13y ago
      I've experienced the opposite of this; since the number of weeks people get tends to be very standardized, there is extreme reluctance to give anyone a special perk like extra yearly vacation.
    • barrkel 13y ago
      I found that vacation was the least flexible part of negotiation, because it was explicitly tied to tenure with the company. It was enough to make me decide to stay in London when my H-1B came through. Very short-sighted for a CA company trying to attract international talent too, since the biggest cost of moving is the lack of ability to easily visit loved ones, and short holidays make transatlantic trips uneconomical.
    • mh_yam 13y ago
      This wasn't the case for me. I managed to get a 30%+ salary increase (alas, the new company didn't have bonuses so this wasn't a ridiculous increase) but I had no room to negotiate vacation days.
  • lowmagnet 13y ago
    I wanted to 'not get paid' instead of going negative on my PTO. (I don't like any form of 'negative' debt) I was told I couldn't do that without quitting and coming back because the benefits system was all wired up wrong. This would of course reset everything in the system. If I had an ACA-based health insurance policy, I would be covered there, but any other benefits via the company would be canceled for the time period. I think there needs to be a bigger push for benefits that we select and maintain ourselves with companies just contributing some sort of minimally mandated stipend related to salary level. I value the freedom of my time over wage (salary, but still) slavery the older I get.
    • glesica 13y ago
      I agree 100%. I used to work in an IT job for a school and there was very little for me to do for most of the summer. I asked if my contract could be adjusted so I could have a month or two off during the summer, unpaid and, like you, I was told that just wasn't feasible due to various bureaucratic concerns. I like the idea of benefits that are not tied to the employer but to which the employer contributes some amount of money. Although at that point, might as well just pay me more and let me take care of it.
    • tomkarlo 13y ago
      If you're going to go into "debt", vacation debt is the right kind. It doesn't accrue interest, it doesn't impact your credit rating, and they can't subtract it from your paycheck in most states (like CA) if you leave the job - they have to chase you to pay it back, and many companies don't bother.
  • justrudd 13y ago
    Here's how I deal with family obligations, home repairs, etc. - I do them as needed and take no PTO. I'll email my team and say "Garage door getting replaced. Be checking email sporadically". Now if the company I'm working for says nothing, that's good. If the company I'm working for says "You need to log those X hours as PTO", I give notice. It's expected that we (employees) put in a little extra effort when at the end of a project or the end of the fiscal month or whatever. And I don't ask to be paid for that extra 4 to 12 hours of work. So if I take 4 hours here and there, you'd damn well better NOT bitch at me. Edit: fix some grammar
    • glesica 13y ago
      I like that attitude, but not everyone can afford to follow through and actually quit, that's part of the big problem, most people have relatively little leverage and can't afford to "take" leverage.
      • SoftwareMaven 13y ago
        You don't have to quit the next day. It's indicative of a poor working environment, and means it's time to start looking for a new job.
        • marcosdumay 13y ago
          Also, it's indicative of poor management skills, what means that your job may stop existing at any time.
    • joezydeco 13y ago
      I do the same thing, but I ask upfront in the interview instead of spontaneously quitting the job after the fact.
      • justrudd 13y ago
        Absolutely. I'm much more selective in where I work now so I've not had to do this for the past decade. But the first decade I was working, I was drawn to money figures without paying a lot of attention to the work environment. With that said, I would still walk out on an abusive employer...
  • wil421 13y ago
    >most people I know use most of their time off for family obligations and "work outside of work" like home repairs. This is a crap situation. Some companies are changing this approach and allowing remote working. Many people on my team will work remote and a day they need to get the garage repaired and just work around their work requirements. Combine with flex time it works out pretty good.
  • afterburner 13y ago
    This is exactly why we should adopt the same minimums as Europe: 5-6 weeks usually, and on average people get 7 weeks. This allows for family, seasonal trips, and random time off. There is too much silence on this topic though.
    • xacaxulu 13y ago
      Don't forget how much paid maternity leave the US kindly bestows on it's female population (none).
  • enraged_camel 13y ago
    >>It is unfortunate that so many people are stuck in jobs that don't offer sufficient time off. This is because outside of Silicon Valley, and outside of software development in general, corporations have been gaining more and more power over their employees. You can see this when you look at stagnating wages for everyone outside the executive class. Don't like your job? Too bad. You should just be grateful that you have a job in the first place. Don't have a job? Better go door to door begging everyone to employ you. Haven't had a non-minimum-wage job for the past year? Good luck convincing any HR person that you're worth even an interview. Etcetera. What this country needs is another labor movement. The first one gave us things like healthcare and retirement benefits, improved workplace conditions (especially safety), and the five-day workweek (down from six). Hopefully, the second one will give us remote work, paid paternal leave, 30-day minimum vacations every year, and a hard cap of 50 hours per week.
    • Florin_Andrei 13y ago
      Absolutely. Everything else mentioned on this page is palliative. This addresses the root cause. Well, closer to the root cause. The root cause is culture. (Well, actually the root cause is human nature, when placed in certain circumstances. But that's too theoretical to be useful in political practice.)
    • ux-app 13y ago
      "What this country needs is another labor movement" Totally agree. Trade unions and collective bargaining can produce some outstanding results for workers, but the only way they can have any teeth is through a coordinated "attack" against hostile work environments. It's hard to imagine how a loosely coupled workforce like IT professionals could effectively "wage war" on their employers. Words like "attack" and "war" might sound like hyperbole, but these types of disputes can get ugly; when describing the 1984 Miner's Union strike in the UK, Margaret Thatcher characterized the situation as: "We had to fight the enemy without in the Falklands. We always have to be aware of the enemy within, which is much more difficult to fight and more dangerous to liberty." There are countless other examples of openly hostile responses to unionization across the world. Part of the solution to this adversarial standoff between employer/employees might be a move to normalizing and standardizing the collective bargaining process. As a high school teacher I work as member of a heavily unionized workforce. Disputes about pay and conditions are baked into the system and occur on a rolling basis. In South Australia, where I work, our enterprise agreement is renegotiated on a rolling 3 year basis. The last agreement took a year longer to finalise which means that negotiations for the 2012,2013,2014 enterprise agreement overlapped the 2015-2017 negotiations (which went on in parallel). From my perspective I see a functioning system which brings great results for me as an employee while protecting my right to a safe workplace. To give an example of the conditions which teachers in my state have fought for: - 13 weeks paid vacation - 10 paid, no questions asked sick days - Excellent salary. I'm earning 20%-30% more as a teacher than I did as a developer - 2 weeks paid paternity leave - 14 weeks paid maternity leave - 22 hours of class time per week - Tight unfair dismissal laws - Ongoing unconditional pay increases that outpace inflation. "...corporations have been gaining more and more power over their employees." absolutely agree with you there. There was a lively discussion on HN a while ago about whether making salary information public is a good idea. Employers don't want employees to have this information because one of the things it can lead to is collective action along the lines of "...hey we all want to get 110k/yr just like Joe over there..." I'm not sure how exactly the lessons from not-for-profit, tightly regulated workplaces like schools can be applied more broadly to the rest of the economy, but what I do know is that my standard of living, autonomy and ability to actually stop and smell the roses has increased immeasurably since I became a teacher. I think the labour movement that you're calling for needs to be broad based. Instead of a teacher's union and a miner's union I think a broad based worker's union regardless of sector needs to arise which demands that the fruits of our collective labour need to more evenly and fairly be distributed. The 1st world is a rich place, but you'd have trouble spotting with much of the modern day wage slavery that must be endured.
  • kenko 13y ago
    "It is unfortunate that so many people are stuck in jobs that don't offer sufficient time off." If only there were some kind of national organization that could mandate that all employees receive a certain minimum amount of time off per year!
    • Peaker 13y ago
      The US has a ridiculously low minimum for PTO and sick days. Israel has 12pto + 18 sick days iirc and I wouldn't work for an employer that gives so few days off.
      • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        Implying that most Israeli employers give more?
        • Peaker 13y ago
          In the high tech sector? Definitely. The norm starts at 18pto for juniors and then it climbs up annually.
    • smsm42 13y ago
      If only there were some kind of national organization that could solve the problems of people entering into voluntary contracts that you don't like! And, in general, doing anything you do not approve. The same national organization, while at it, could also mandate minimum salary of $200K and minimum vacation policy of 50% of the business days, not including holidays of every religion, sick days and days where going to work just doesn't feel like something one would enjoy. I think such national organization would be a huge thing, can't wait for it to appear.
• doorty 13y ago
  As are <= 40 hour work weeks.
• Nursie 13y ago
  The rationale here seems to be that you need proper downtime to maintain efficiency. That's true and all and great but it's still ass-backward. There's more to life than work. Without adequate time off you've no time to live.
  • sliverstorm 13y ago
    it's still ass-backward Sure, but it's a useful perspective to help make a strong business case for it. Not every company cares if their employees have "lives" and are "well-rounded individuals", but talk in terms of dollars & cents, and more businesses will pay attention.
  • svantana 13y ago
    I think the point is rather: even if you're doing the startup thing and devoting your whole life to a project for a few years - even then you should take time off (and not feel guilty).
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• alooPotato 13y ago
  Devils Advocate: people often use the excuse of "I'm feeling burnt out" to not push themselves. Taking your metaphor of the professional runner, while its clear that they need breaks between marathons, they also push themselves to extremes during training and races to make themselves better. I think people often feel like they are the technology equivalent of a professional athlete and need time to recover, yet while they are working, they never actually push themselves to their physical (and mental) limits. No argument that if you work hard, you need vacations. Thats absolutely correct.
  • guard-of-terra 13y ago
    You can't push yourself all the time. You'll break.
  • crpatino 13y ago
    > ... yet while they are working, they never actually push themselves to their physical (and mental) limits. You could argue that in the long run, only those who push themselves see any kind of career progression. For the likes of your example the future holds stagnation or, in the most extreme case, unemployment/unemployability.
  • mogrim 13y ago
    Athletes don't push themselves to extremes during training - I remember reading about the training schedule of a pro cyclist (Cavendish IIRC), and it was a lot lighter than my usual day. He was getting up early, doing a couple of hours in the morning, lunch+siesta, then another couple of hours in the afternoon. And nice and early to bed. (He also had someone to cook for him, do his washing, etc. etc.) Racing is of course a different matter, but even the hardest working athlete (say during the playoffs or a major tournament) is only playing every other day. The Tour de France riders are some of the hardest working, but even then the top riders are only expected to actually be competitive in one major race per year...
    • alooPotato 13y ago
      What? I guess it depends on your definition of extreme. My definition is that they are constantly pushing the boundary of what they are capable of, i.e. always just surpassing their current proficiency so that they can constantly get better. I don't see that same level of intensity in most tech workers I've met.
• darrelld 13y ago
  "Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your job." More employers need to understand this. At my last job I felt like I was close to burning out. I was getting involved in management duties, customer service, hardware design(not area of expertise at all), maintaining a back-end and front-end, dabbling in some networking, aiding in negotiating airtime rates, and looking up new parts to cut costs. For the first few months it was all fun as we were trying to give legs (and profit!) to an offshoot business from the main business. I was the only technical person with the flexibility to to juggle all of those tasks and keeping costs low was a priority so I was happy to help this fledgling business by giving my time and energy to all these different areas. I never learned as much as I did during that time but there came a time when I felt the burnout coming on. I was getting less done and was losing interest in going to work. I decided to take a 'staycation'. I filed for a week off where I planned to just stay at home and do whatever I saw fit for that week. I got teased about taking time off just to stay at home. "Why don't you just come to work if you're planning to stay home? What's the point of the vacation? You sure are lazy." All of these comments were light heartedly and in jest, but it seemed like most people really didn't understand the concept of taking some time off just to catch a breath. I took the time off and came back fresher than ever and pushed through my todo list faster than I had been before I took time off. All I did during that week was manage my finances, watch netflix, clean my apartment and run some errands that had been piling up.
  • venomsnake 13y ago
    After more than 5 years I am currently on 16 day break where I just stay and do nothing but benchpresses and deadlifts. The refreshment is amazing. Sometimes you just need to relax a bit. I am getting to the point of feeling bored and longing to get back to work. Awesome feeling.
• prawks 13y ago
  A massive component I see to rest vs. work is flexible scheduling, not just vacation time. You don't need as much time off if you are working at a pace where you are comfortable and not overly stressed. I'm not sure it applies to startup founders who lack the security of a stable job or demand delivery for immediate market presence, but for people with more wiggle room working "slower" and smarter is very rewarding, and in my experience yields higher quality results due to a more ample time to digest ideas. It also can carry a perhaps heftier social stigma than extensive vacationing if viewed in the wrong light, because of the potential for abuse. If I watch a movie in the middle of the day between working, how is that viewed? Is it different than if I were to take a mid-afternoon bike ride on a Tuesday for a couple of hours? They are both ways that I can decompress and allow me to come back to ideas later with a fresh perspective, and that's sometimes the most valuable thing to me when I'm working. I would take flexible scheduling over excessive vacation time any day of the week, and I'm fortunate that the software engineering field is one where working from anywhere at any time is extremely easy.
• ommunist 13y ago
  Yup, the same way the work is for the poor.
• vikas5678 13y ago
  I'm curious to see what people here think of "unlimited vacation" days policy in companies like Netflix. The place where I work has the same policy. I'm inclined to believe this "vacations are for the weak" idea tends to make employees fewer vacations than they would if they were, say allocated a fixed 15 PTO days.
  • saryant 13y ago
    We have it at the startup I work for. I recently spent 3.5 weeks traveling around Japan and Seoul and I didn't take a computer. I think I responded to about six work emails the entire time.
  • geophile 13y ago
    Yes, exactly. I was at a startup that wasn't going so well, and we had the standard three weeks per year. It was already socially awkward to take those three weeks. Then the policy was changed to "all the vacation you need". For the people already taking zero vacation, there was no change, of course. For the rest of us, it increased the pressure to do without.
  • byoung2 13y ago
    I know someone who works at a startup with unlimited vacation, and for most employees there it apparently turns out to be about 3 weeks of actual vacations taken (he defined it as left your home city for at least 2 days). They do use more single days here and there than they would otherwise, and they don't have to lie about being sick to use sick days. If I started a company, I'd want to offer unlimited vacation.
  • bgentry 13y ago
    I think it works very well for us at Heroku. I've been here 3 years, and people certainly take enough time off in general. Probably 3-5 weeks for most folks. If they don't take enough time off, their managers are supposed to get on them about it :) Case in point: our office has been closed for the holidays for the past couple weeks, and I haven't seen evidence of anybody doing any serious work on non-side projects (outside of the unavoidable on call responsibilities). Nobody had to use precious PTO for this or feel bad about traveling overseas to visit relatives. I'd say it's highly dependent on company culture, though. We were always encouraged by our founders and office managers to take plenty of time off, and they led by example in this way. If that wasn't the case, it might not be working out well for us. I've certainly heard of other companies where it leads to less vacation.
• guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Vacations are fantastic. Writing from Helsinki where I'm on vacation. Along with hundreds thousands of my compatriots who all have around ten days off on the new year. Which helps forcing even people who avoid vacations to have some. In my opinion, those who don't travel don't live, and that's where you need vacations. Visiting your relatives, too.
• coldcode 13y ago
  At my employer (here in the US) we start at 18 days. People who've been here for 10 years have 33 days. There are even people who've been at the company for 25 years who have 53 days (though today the max is 23 days). Our parent company is in travel (a GDS, think reservation system) and has been around for 50 years. You can't save up from year to year (except if your manager is OK with it) so people take the time off. People are generally happy and productive and the company does well. Why anyone thinks working 90 hour weeks and never taking time off is a good idea is beyond me (even if it's your own startup at some point you will burn out).
  • Iterated 13y ago
    We work for the same company. I've always wondered how many of us there are on HN.
    • coldcode 13y ago
      At least 2 :-)
• larrys 13y ago
  "Professional runners take long breaks between marathons. They make no excuses for this, and no one judges them for it, because everyone knows that rest and recuperation is an essential part of being a pro athlete. The same is true for entrepreneurs (and everyone, really). Preventing burnout is part of your job." Everyone is different and even comparing muscles is not the same. Some people may need to take time off to prevent burnout others may not. I worked 5 or 6 years without a break and didn't think anything of it. That said it's probably natural to try and elevate oneself when you have some ability that someone else doesn't appear to have. Some people do need less sleep (not me) and would almost certainly have an opinion of someone who need more than 8 hours. The thing about "making fun" of other people is that you isolate one thing (that you identify as negative) not everything about them. And there is nothing wrong with trying to perk yourself up because you can do 20 pullups with your feet out while the other guy (who only needs 4 hours of sleep) is focusing on his extra productivity as a way of feeling good about himself.. Human nature.
• atmosx 13y ago
  In 2014, no one would really need to argue about this, should be generally accepted as a universal truth: Vacations are good. The ancient Greeks were spot-on: «παν μέτρον άριστον» (all in good measure).
• danielharan 13y ago
  "Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your job." Excuse me? You don't just take a vacation so you can be more productive at work.
  • chrisgd 13y ago
    What do you take a vacation for then?
    • davidw 13y ago
      Because you have a limited amount of time on the planet, and not everyone wants to spend all of it at work?
      • chrisgd 13y ago
        Right. And how is that different from taking some time away and coming back more productive?
    • colanderman 13y ago
      Enjoying life? Otherwise you're just being used.
      • chrisgd 13y ago
        You are splitting hairs hereIf I say I am taking a vacation and am going to come back refereshed and you say "no, it is because I am going to enjoy life", If you still have to come back to work then the difference is moot.
        • colanderman 13y ago
          The difference is, if my company said, "instead of vacations we've invested in Refresh-O-Pods; you will each spend a day in them and come out refreshed for work" I'd say fuck that.
• kappaknight 13y ago
  There's really no benefit to glorifying "busy." With the amount of technology and automation we have, and how productive we have become, we should be heading towards 4 day weeks, and month long vacations. No shame in taking a break at all here. Also, work to live, don't live to work; or you'll miss out on everything important.
• dirktheman 13y ago
  Here in The Netherlands we have a legal minimum of 4x the amount of hours you work per week for time off. So you work 40 hrs, you get 160 hrs off each year. The vast majority of employers give more, though. I haven't seen less than 24 days off. In addition to that, you get 8% of your yearly gross income as "vacation money" in the month of May. I never get why most Americans have so much trouble with taking/giving time off. Or working part-time, for that matter, which is basically impossible, from what I've heard.
  • LordHumungous 13y ago
    Sigh.
    • deleted 13y ago
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  • pseudonym44 13y ago
    > you get 8% of your yearly gross income as "vacation money" in the month of May. I dislike this type of policy, which essentially acts to obfuscate your true gross income. "Oh, you understood that we would add vacation money? We included vacation money in the quoted income, sorry." I'm not in the Netherlands but I've been in this situation and had to take frustrating legal action (which, under new legislation, I would now have to pay for).
    • dirktheman 13y ago
      It's pretty well known, when you're quoted a yearly salary, the 8% is usually included. When you're quoted a monthly salary, it isn't. Weird, I know, but it's so common here that almost everybody knows. Though i can imagine it's frustrating for people from abroad! On a side note, true gross income doesn't say that much. You have taxes, 401K plans that are sometimes partially included, meal plans, etc. i had a bigger paycheck at my last job, but my net income is higher at my current job. Unfortunately, the only way to truly know what you're making is to wait a month after starting working somewhere, and check your bank account.
  • 13y ago
• lloyddobbler 13y ago
  Brilliant discussion. Before I came to work at FullContact, I went through the same sort of guilt every time I left for vacation. Nevermind that I was working 60-hour weeks. Nevermind that I was plugged in, often checking email & sneaking in work, while away on "vacation" (much to the annoyance of my fiancee). And it wasn't unique to me - talking to most of my friends, it seemed like a common thread in the startup world. If we take vacation at all, we don't leave work at work. I guess I had been in it so long, I didn't even notice anymore. This year I took my first Paid, Paid Vacation - no email. No internet. No work of any sort allowed. And I came back more refreshed than I can ever remember being. Not only with ideas that had germinated while away, but also an extra drive I hadn't had in a long time. It was freaking amazing. Sad thing is, I probably wouldn't have done it, were I not working for a place that made "unplugging" a condition of my getting a bonus. The overwhelming "work more" startup culture is a tough thing to break free of.
• gygygy 13y ago
  Why would you even care to give an excuse to anyone? We need to take vacations because that is one of the reasons we work so hard. If we didn't need vacations, if we didn't want to eat what we love and do things to spoil ourselves, might as well give up everything and go live in a jungle.
• the1 13y ago
  coding is for the dumb
• hawkharris 13y ago
  This brings to mind a speech by Arianna Huffington, who argued that too many professionals in D.C. brag about never getting rest. She was on a date with a man who bragged, "I only got three hours of sleep last night." Huffington replied, "This dinner would be more interesting if you had gotten six."
• wellboy 13y ago
  I think looking at the analogy to a marathon gives the best comparison. If you've run a marathon, you trained months for it and you have run the 26 miles (made your startup ramen-profitable) then then you can take time off. If you haven't even run a marathon yet, yeah maybe you've run 5mi a couple of times, what do you want to take time off from? You need to run 15mi another 10 times now and the run the 26 mi marathon. Then you can take time off. I think once a startup is ramen profitable, the founders can take some time off, because then it's much more about making the right strategy decisions, which formally take 0 time. It's just a matter of connecting all the variables correctly and that works much better in a balanced mind than in an overworked mind. If the product of the startup isn't even finished though or it doesn't have traction yet, putting in the hours is much more needed than creativity, because thinking about strategy is a waste of time anyway before you get to the next milestone. It will all change once you launch anyway.
• kamilszybalski 13y ago
  I couldn't agree more with op.. I remember when I was younger (20) and working on my first startup, my partner and I would work 6 days a week, some times from 9am - 2am with only a break for dinner. I now realize that this type of schedule is absolutely not sustainable.
• jasonkester 13y ago
  Indeed. It amazes me how willing people (well, Americans at least) are to give up vacation time. All it takes is the smallest whiff of a threat to somebody's all-important "Career", and they'll back down from any plans for a real vacation. Other folks I've worked with simply don't even bother, and if forced to take the remainder of their paid time off in December, they'll just hang out on the couch with the XBox. Makes no sense. Anyway, here's the obligitory six year old blog post: http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vacation-is-only.html http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vaca...
• edent 13y ago
  This is just crazy. In the UK, the minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days (Full details at https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights). That usually does not include Bank Holidays - unless you're working somewhere a bit sketchy - so that's another 7 days (although you can't decided when to take them). In some companies I've worked for, HR can force you to take holiday if it looks like you've not been using it. I'm not claiming the UK is a Socialist paradise, but I shudder when I look at the terms of employment with US companies. Do you want a happy, healthy, dedicated, and motivated workforce? Or do you just want to burn people out as quickly as possible and then replace them?
  • jdsnape 13y ago
    Exactly my thoughts when reading these comments. I'm in my first year in employment after graduating from University, and I get 27.5 days holiday a year...if you don't take it you get in trouble with HR (although I can carry 5 days over to next year with prior agreement). I can also buy more days if I wanted to, my manager does for example so he can spend more time on his sailing hobby.
  • Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    The latter, almost uniformly. Over here employers cry about having a shortage of skilled workers to hire one day and the next either lament at how ungrateful and spoiled the ones they already employ seem to be when they balk at working another 60 hour week or negatively compare the ones who are efficient and have families to the 20-something single guy who happily toils away until midnight every day. It's a ridiculous class system we have in this country, no doubt.
  • skizm 13y ago
    If they're replaceable, the later. That's why technical people get a lot of time off and "soft skill" people get less time off. Not saying it is right, but that's how companies look at it. Also, business owners don't like government telling them how to run their business. If a company mismanages their talent and burn them out, that's the company's problem, not the government's problem. I'm not heartless but I also wouldn't like the government telling me how to run my business. That many mandatory days off can crippling for smaller companies.
• peterwwillis 13y ago
  Once I come back from vacation I need another vacation. I've gone so hard and done so many things while exploring some new place that i'm exhausted. So maybe the type of vacation should depend on what you're using it for? For me, a relaxing "vacation" is snugging up in bed for an entire weekend and doing nothing but eating, sleeping and watching fun shows with a loved one. If you find it difficult to get away from work in your own home, try to structure your day so you don't have time to check on work.
• byoung2 13y ago
  I recently got back from a five day holiday vacation to the Puerto Rican island of Culebra I highly recommend Culebra to anyone in the US who likes white sand beaches. One of my top 10 in the world, and top 3 in the Caribbean.
• Ryel 13y ago
  I thought this was FINALLY going to be an article on how coddled developers and entrepreneurs are. I was disappointed.
• Segmentation 13y ago
  Many companies have vacation and sick leave the same. You can be sick, but vacation less, or vice-versa. If you're predisposed with a weak immune system and need a lot of sick leave during the year, well, sucks to be you at those companies.
• loomio 13y ago
  I absolutely love work, and I've been bored out of my skull for the last week because everyone is on holiday over Christmas/New Years. I have organized my life so I am working on the most important and interesting problems I can find, with the best people, and we own the business together and no one is getting taken advantage of for the profit of others. In this scenario, there's pretty much nothing I'd rather be doing besides working. At the same time, burnout is real. I tend to moderate myself on a daily basis, taking the time I need to get enough sleep, exercise, eat well, socialize, etc. Others follow a pattern of working too hard daily and then need whole weeks off to recover now and then. But looking at rest, whether daily or in chunks, as an investment in long term productivity, is the only thing that makes sense to me.
• alexkus 13y ago
  Have done "Live to work". 60+ hour weeks, using vacations to recover from (near) burnout, etc. Now doing "Work to live". Moved to a 4 day week. 3-day weekends. Any extra hours are my own choice (and rare). 27 vacation days a year[1] giving me 1 week off every ~3 months plus an extra week off around Christmas. Never get near burnout. Shame it took me so long to realise that "Work to live" is much better than the former. 1. Pro-rated to my reduced hours though. This is the UK so I also get 8 bank-holidays a year.
• michaelwww 13y ago
  Author is still making excuses by writing this article. Vacations are normal for almost other fields. My experience in the tech field leads me to believe they should be mandatory for the "indispensable martyrs" who risk crashing and burning and taking the company down with them.
• marincounty 13y ago
  Men and time--It has haunted me for years. It might explain my hobby with horology? I know there's a fine line between living every day as your last, and indigent, but we drop so easily. The worst thing a teacher ever said was, "Electricians collect 5 retirement checks after they retire." Their wives collect 1/2 of the rest for years. I think about that statement everyday. I think lack of true hobbies might account for some of the early deaths? I never found the real answer. I don't want to know. Hay Mark, if you read this--you were the best teacher I had. I hope you are doing well.
• patatino 13y ago
  Can't believe what I'm reading here.. And I thought slavery was over.
  • gordaco 13y ago
    I've likened "post-vacation blues" to Drapetomania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania) since I knew about the latter.
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• notastartup 13y ago
  This reminds me of the time I started working on a project and one of the manager went on a vacation, leaving me with a pile load of directionless work. After he came back, I was made aware that taking a break now would be bad, so I didn't. The project went sideways, I was burnt out, somebody had to take the blame. Taking break really is part of the job, it strikes me even more reading this article, because when you are expendable, you don't want to be burnt out as it you make easy target as a scapegoat.
• petdance 13y ago
  I am surprised to see that there is a word in Klingon for vacation: http://klingonska.org/dict/?q=vacation http://klingonska.org/dict/?q=vacation
• dylandrop 13y ago
  As an engineer who works for a startup, I find that one of the troubling aspects of this heroic startup narrative is the hacker who stays up all night voraciously coding and then makes a breakthrough at 2AM. While there exist those of us programmers who do enjoy doing this, I find that this image is more commonly appropriated by more business-minded folk to squeeze that last feature out before a deadline. After all, what seems better to you? An image of yourself as "hacking into the mainframe" or some sort of stock-programmer-movie imagery, or the guy who's forced to stay there by social pressures from your boss? Point is, if you love what you're working on, don't let me stop you, but you don't have to be a slave to the code to prove you're passionate. Furthermore, another day of work != another day of productive work. I'd say that when I'm put in an office for 40 hours a week, week after week, I get less and less productive as the process becomes more and more tedious. Very infrequently do I have one full day of solid work with no distractions. However, when I've been away from the office for a while, I notice that my work becomes more interesting for me, and I can give it more focus. I'd be willing to bet this is true for others as well.
• pmcpinto 13y ago
  Life without 3-4 weeks of time off a year to travel and to relax isn't the same.
• paul 13y ago
  I like to tell the startups: We invest in people, so if you aren't taking care of yourself, then you aren't taking care of my investment. Big successes take a long time -- Dropbox is almost seven years old now and still has a long way to go. If you burn out after a few years, it's unlikely to be good for anyone.
• quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  How about for the "week"? It's tough to relax when you only take a day or two off..
• AndrewKemendo 13y ago
  What is not being addressed here is that different people can take varying levels of stress before they "burn out." From a simply practical standpoint, it is a competitive trait to be able to work longer without being able to burn out. The fact that you are competing with people like that in every marketplace means that not needing, or even desiring a break or vacation may be a key determinant of success in a highly competitive market. I think that is why you see this no rest attitude so prevalent in very competitive schools, elite military units, wall street and other hyper competitive markets where razor thin distinctions can mean big differences.
  • lucisferre 13y ago
    You make a pretty bold claim here that working more days in a year is a significant competitive advantage. Well actually you specifically say razor thin distinctions but go on to further claim that in things like entrepreneurship they mean big differences. Both are pretty bold claims actually and I'd be surprised to see someone back them up, but I'm pretty dubious there is any merit to them.
    • AndrewKemendo 13y ago
      I suppose to me it seems pretty intuitive that holding all else equal, the person who puts more work in (days per year) will have a better outcome. There isn't always a trade off, some people can just work more before losing capacity. There are those people in every industry; and that is my point, the mere existence of these people as your competition means they will be able to outwork you if you have a lower stress tolerance. The standard counter is that some X-factor like a creativity multiplier comes into play that the "overworked" person doesn't have. I have also heard/read the "Over x amount of hours worked per day productivity drops." I think that holds for most people but not for the outliers who choose not to take vacations. Interesting interpretation as well about markets as all of the examples I gave were decidedly not entrepreneurial in nature so I don't agree with your assessment that I made that "bold" claim, however I would probably extend the theory there as well.
      • 13y ago
• mcdowall 13y ago
  In the last year I've taken about 10 weeks vacation, travelled all across the States, Hawaiian Islands, Fijian Islands (Yasawa's), Australia, Sweden and Snowboarding twice. Contracting (think on site day rate) has allowed me to do this but only because I engineered it this way, I looked at Job boards a few years back and saw the qualifications I needed to get to get to the position and sort of rates that would allow me to take that time off to strike a good work/life balance. I work 6 month contracts (sometimes longer) and take a month or so off at the end. Doing so not only allows me free thinking time and the opportunity to meet new people, travel to great places and experience new things but I also find I'm a lot more refreshed and valuable to the hirer for the next contract. I know this isn't possible for everyone, hell, people need to work permanent roles right, but striking a good work / life balance is possible if you look for it.
• equalarrow 13y ago
  I think the big takeaway here is a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to. I've done it quite a few times. But what we really need is more self-realization like this at the top. This is where the change for these sorts of policies can happen. On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. But, on the other hand, there is still room and freedom to make your own way and write your own rules. I think about this topic a lot, especially because I am fighting burnout myself. I didn't do any work for most of xmas break and when I went back this week I kept thinking "I need another few months off". I even had to push for the two days after xmas off - there was a little push back from the ceo since we're a small 4 person company. But, I'm a little older than everyone and I was thinking "fuck it, I need to chill". Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want. I think there can definitely be a balance between being on vacation a lot and outsourcing all the non-important work to other people who will do it. Time Ferris is a great read for this type of living and it exemplifies the work to live not live to work thing (or work as little as possible and really live). I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I told myself: 1) I'd never work for someone else on vaca again - ever, and 2) I'd never make anyone else do that. Needless to say after a few days I was like, 'fuck this, this is the stupidest thing in the world. I'm in one of the best food and historical places in the world and the guys at home want me to keep coding. Bullshit.' I think there's a point where you either keep going with everyone else's rules or you make your own. Get busy livin or get busy dyin. I'm at the point in my life where I'm getting to the last of dyin for someone else's deal and starting to live for my own. It's not impossible, just take discipline and focus. Otherwise, me, and everyone else is working under someone else's thumb, by their rules, working on vacation. Dumb.
  • thrush 13y ago
    I have to say that I think the big takeaway is radically different. Riding off the marathon analogy, taking vacations is critical to prevent burning out. In the long run it will keep you more productive and in turn be better for the company. Tim Ferris has some great things to say, but there's also the inherent risk that when working alone and taking a vacation, no one else is there to watch your back. Culture at some companies is definitely more what like what you described, particularly at finance firms, but there are definitely cultural shifts happening right now as less college grads are going straight to finance every year, allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases. It seems like your situation is very different from that though. Working at a small startup is really hard, particularly when you already have a family. I wish you and your startup the best of luck in the coming year.
• bbarn 13y ago
  Having been on both sides of this fence, once as a manager, and several times as an employee, I think the idea of "unlimited PTO" is too suspect to smart employees, and the only real viable option as a good (productive) developer is 3-4 weeks vacation, and not complaining about "crunch time". The problems arise when "crunch time" turns into "all the time". It's at that point you've just got to take advantage of this market and make your exit. 2 weeks for the first three years on a job just isn't realistic, when you realize that that extra 10-15K means missing out on things you enjoy or need to take time off for.
• m0nastic 13y ago
  I wish more places let you pool your time off into a group that other people could take. At every job I've ever had, I never use any of my vacation, and it would be nice if I could give it to other people who are "vacation people". I don't know how feasible a system would be though (I've heard of places that do that for regular PTO, but not vacation).
• marvin 13y ago
  European CS graduate here. I will never do salaried software engineering work in the United States. The countless stories like this one, and the horror stories in the comments under this story (most of whom aren't even consciously described as horror stories) describe a toxic culture which would ruin my mental health. There is no way in hell I will subject myself to this kind of pressure, even if the pay is 30% higher. (Per year at least, per hour it looks very even since 40 hours a week appears to be a pipe dream in most places). I never thought I would type this out, but there you have it. I did actually have some vague ambitions of working in the US once, but I have eventually realized that the work environment is a bad fit for my style of work. Declined an on-site interview with Microsoft this fall due to a vague feeling that my questions about vacations and overtime were answered too vaguely, and after reading this thread I think I finally have a grasp on what stopped me. It's really too bad. You guys have the most interesting environment for software developent in the whole world, with a huge amount of opportunities for growing and learning. But it's just not worth it.
• rdtsc 13y ago
  I've written about this before and others too. You'll notice the older you get the more you'll start valuing your time (your time alone, with family, with friends) than you'd value money. Someone offers you a job with $30k more but you have to drive an extra hour each way plus you get only 3 weeks vacation, at some point that will start to look like a bad deal, but when if you were younger it might look like a great deal. Look for companies that offer you decent vacation time (and make you take it). Sometimes those that give you "unlimited" will pressure you into not taking it by piling on work, or guilting you into working, so beware. You only have one life to live, at the end maybe you'll be excited about designing an awesome SaaS system or Android app, but chances are you'll probably be happier about time spent with your close family.
  • k3n 13y ago
    I've also personally known several who got canned for taking too much "unlimited" vacation time, even though the amount they took was far from extraordinary.
• YZF 13y ago
  My old boss used to say that the earth still turns when you're not there. The earth does not need you to be working to turn. Later on I worked for a great company called Creo. We had "banked time". If you had to work long hours to get stuff done you could bank that time and take it off later. And people did that. 3-4 weeks vacation on top of that. With that we created about $1B of value over ten years. Some people abused the system but they were a minority and since we had 360 review they normally wouldn't get away with it. Here in Canada we have parental leave. When you have children, husband and wife can take up to 35 weeks (combined). You don't get full pay but many employers will top up to full pay. You can't be fired or laid off for taking this time off. When my youngest daughter was born I took 2.5 months off... When I work on something I am 100% committed. I work hard, long hours. However I will take vacation and disconnect completely. Guess what, when I'm back it's as if I just left yesterday. As they say, when you die you'll never regret not having worked more.
• kartikkumar 13y ago
  I'm very glad I grew up in The Netherlands for this precise reason. Every summer, I took a full eight weeks off with family and went to India to spend time with the rest of the extended family. This remained the case through college (although eight did become six). I did half of my PhD research at UC Berkeley and it was quite insane for me to note how rare it is that grad students take vacation. I love vacation and I love coming back fully charged to work thereafter. Can't quite fathom how you can adhere to a "no vacation" way of life.
• lettergram 13y ago
  I find it interesting to note, that I spend roughly 3 hours a day goofing off. And in the past 5 years, I've never taken a vacation day, because every day I love what I do and take my 3 hours to do what ever I desire. Taking vacations (for me) would be painful, I can't stand being kept from my work. Then again, my girlfriend needs a vacation once or twice a year to feel better and I don't feel she is weak by any means. I just don't seem to need what she needs.
• kimonos 13y ago
  Nice post! Anyone deserves a vacation in order to relax from everyday stresses of life.. For me, I don't care if people label me as "weak" as long as I enjoy every minute of my vacation.. (",)
• shalalala 13y ago
  AKA Vacations are for the WEEK!
• nnq 13y ago
  ...this, and realizing the "benefits of a well-rested mind", and fucking accepting once and for all that "laziness is (most of the time) not a defect, and in the right circumstances can be a success driving mind-set" ...but we'll probably have above-human-level-AI before we get these basic truths finally drilled into our heads and the heads of our children and having them replace the christian-morality-driven-capitalism derived bullshit that we have in our heads instead of it nowadays...
• spande 13y ago
  Vacations also mean an opportunity to gain new experiences. One should apply these new experiences to become a better person.
• hj4tsf 13y ago
  Cool insight bro. Congratulations on turning 12.
• skilbjo 13y ago
  Culebra is beautiful! I just got back from Vieques, PR
• yodsanklai 13y ago
  "Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your job." Yes, but I don't see vacations (only) as a way to prevent burnout. To me, it's an opportunity to travel the world, read, spend more time on my hobbies and so on.
• anoplus 13y ago
  I would go as far as to say that freedom is our ultimate goal, not just for preventing burnout. And the nature of laziness drives the most wonderful innovations that has to do with automating things. So if you have a lot of free time and the sky didn't fall, you are on the right track.
• mcv 13y ago
  I don't understand or recognize this attitude at all. Vacation is important, and everybody I've ever met recognizes this. Life can't be all work with no time to relax. When a coworker goes on vacation, everybody wishes them a fun time and wants to know where they're going. But I'm not an American. If I understand correctly, Americans often get only 2 weeks off per year, and are often pressured to work more than 40 hours per week. It's clearly a cultural thing. Though to me it seems that this "sacrifice your life for work" culture is very harmful.
• pstack 13y ago
  Vacation isn't for the weak; it's just for those who don't like their jobs very much. If you love what you do, there's not enough time in the world for you to do it as much as you want. If you're just working for a pay-check, then the business day can't end fast enough for you and you're constantly watching the clock. I'm getting ever closer to forty and I've never taken a vacation and it has been at least a couple of years since I've even had a day off due to illness (and, then, only because I was so ill that I physically could not crawl out of bed). My boss has been prompting me for dates when I want to use my vacation for the last several years, because I've always been maxed-out, and I've been coming up with excuses and delays to not have to take the time away. A lot of that has to do with work-ethic. I strongly adhere to the belief that a man's work is his legacy. It is his definition. More of it has to do with how much I enjoy my work. If my work were more of a chore than a joy, I would probably want to take vacations and would surely not hesitate to take a day or three off when sick. It's the same way that some people talk about how they can't wait for their in-laws to go away when they're in-town and you never hear a word from other people. In-laws are only a problem if you don't like them or can't stand them. That isn't the case with everyone. Just like vacations and work.
  • mattlutze 13y ago
    ^ This is why companies have to let a person cash vacation hours out. For some people, their life is defined by this singular facet of existence, which, if that is how they want to live their lives (and it doesn't come at the cost of their mental/physical health and therefore reduce productivity), god bless. But, I hope you're not also suggesting that everyone else adhere to that standard. Because many of us appreciate time with friends, family and the like as much as time working. For those people, who very well may love their jobs as well, vacations are the necessary balancing point allowing the other parts of their lives to share some of the daylight hours.
    • pstack 13y ago
      Certainly not. The point isn't that vacations are terrible and people who take them are somehow lesser. It's that if you love what you do, then you can't wait to do more of what you do. Vacation is another thing you can be doing but is not this beacon on a hill that you escape to after a year of servitude. If you don't really enjoy what you do, then you would probably spend most days watching the clock, so you can go home. Watching the calendar, so you can have one or two weeks to yourself. Of course, you may love what you do and can't wait to do more of it, but have external obligations and contexts that make you feel you need a vacation (from life more than work) and, therefore, take time off to go do that. But that isn't the context of most of these discussions. Most of these discussions are presented as some sort of meager escape from the toils of oppression. That's sad.
• cell303 13y ago
  This really struck me: "Preventing burnout is part of your job. Staying well rested is part of your job". Many would rather consider optimizing one's productivity as being part of the job, usually by introducing new self management techniques, faster typing, etc (thinking of the lifehacker variety). However all these gains would be obliterated by a single burn out (think of it as a Black Swan event). Staying well rested comes not only first, but will also increase your productivity when measured over a longer period.
• jheriko 13y ago
  > So next time you’re planning a vacation, announce it with pride. Don't ever do this unless you understand the financial situation of your employees. I've seen so many complaints about bosses taking even reasonable amounts of holiday when they go somewhere fancy tell everyone about it excitedly or with pride come back and yammer about it all day or longer... working class common sense is to not do this :P although by working class magic when a co-worker does it thats fine... you are probably fine in a tech office and if you are US based the level of wealth is high enough that its pretty likely your employees can afford a holiday abroad, or even somewhere local and nice and don't use their holiday days sitting at home trying not to spend their money...
• Confusion 13y ago
  Vacations are for the weak and everyone is weak.
• w_t_payne 13y ago
  I really pushed myself hard between 2007 and 2010, working my nuts off, on more than one occasion working continuously over a weekend to hit a monday deadline. Unfortunately, this succession of gruelling 60+ hour long crunches meant that I came off the boil a bit in 2011 and 2012 -- and 2013 has been a total write-off, from a productivity perspective. As I enter 2014, I feel like I am back in the game (a bit) but wonder what I can do to keep the fires burning whilst also staving off the consequences? I far prefer working hard than the long months of tiredness and weary fatigue with no immediate cause, and whilst getting from one state to another feels easy, getting back again seems rather more difficult and time-consuming.
• joelle 13y ago
  "...rest and recuperation is an essential part of being a pro" Couldn't have said it better myself.
• mcgwiz 13y ago
  And how is the author instituting this knowledge culturally at work? The implied equation of sleep and vacation is far too crude. Mixed in the post is the golden nugget that it's necessary not to burn out. Vacation is simply one very specific way to account for that, and probably not even the best. I'd say a much more effective way is to make realistic expectations of team members and yourself, such that no one is being over-worked for indefinite periods. That is much more culturally advantageous. But I do acknowledge the difficulty of instituting that in a startup, what with its bursty nature of stress and periods of slack, so vacation might be more appropriate there then elsewhere. That's not to say vacation isn't important. It definitely is. Just not as the primary defense against burnout.
• NAFV_P 13y ago
  That attitude has been put to rest by a bevy of studies empirically showing that sleep in fact makes you smarter, stronger, and more creative. Oh, thanks a lot, that really gives me peace of mind. I'm going through a rather bad insomniac phase, I get to sleep roughly once very 36 to 72 hours. Mix that with writing C all day you start acting odd. The other day I made some coffee, then realised I had used molasses instead of coffee grounds. I never feel guilty when I am getting some sleep or being frivolous.