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President Obama calls on every American to learn code

• peterarmstrong 13y ago
  For kids (not just American kids) between 9 and 12 I'm working on a book that hopefully can help with that: https://leanpub.com/programmingforkids https://leanpub.com/programmingforkids If anyone here wants a review copy, either reply here or I'm @peterarmstrong on Twitter...
• LandoCalrissian 13y ago
  He looks so very tired in that video.
  • sliverstorm 13y ago
    Agreed. No matter how effective you think he is, or how much you like his policies, it seems pretty clear he's under tremendous stress.
    • bluthru 13y ago
      Working with the congress that has the lowest approval rating in history, and the congress that has passed the least amount of bills will do that to you.
      • MaggieL 13y ago
        Rating Congress by "number of bills passed" is as smart as rating coders based on number of lines of code written.
        • bluthru 13y ago
          I get what you're driving at, but the analogy doesn't quite work. We want software to perform functions and we don't care about the amount of lines of code to achieve this. We also want our government to perform functions, and law is how they achieve this. Your stance would make sense if we were in a state that didn't need improvement.
          • MaggieL 13y ago
            We don't want government to simply "perform functions". The best government is the least government. Like code, we want no more government than is absolutely necessary, and I say we have way too much government already. Your stance would make sense only if adding more laws would improve things.
            • lmartel 13y ago
              > The best government is the least government is not actually a fact, though you stated it like one.
            • bluthru 13y ago
              >The best government is the least government. Nope. Least is not the same as efficient or effective. You're just stating a libertarian principle.
        • downer90 13y ago
          Best comment ever. The exact same words had formed in my mind, and then there they were, already written out for me.
    • chiph 13y ago
      The job is brutal. Look at photos of Bush Jr. before & after -- same thing.
      • dnautics 13y ago
        it's only brutal because those jokers take themselves too seriously. If I were president, I'd pay myself a minimal salary, go on extended vacation, veto everything, and the only responsibility I'd take upon myself would be that big fat red button.
        • daigoba66 13y ago
          Ironically it is congress that sets the president's salary. Thus you must get congress to pass a bill which you then must sign. That's a lot of work!
  • 0003 13y ago
    He definitely caught the coding bug.
• bichiliad 13y ago
  "When you guys are good, you should totally take a crack at healthcare.gov. That'd be awesome."
  • 0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago
    Can't they get the stuxnet guys to help with that, or even their managers who understand how to get software done? Don't tell me they don't have some overlapping skills.
    • nickff 13y ago
      To be fair, stuxnet proved that some government agencies could create code to break things; healthcare.gov is already broken, so they don't need help from the stuxnet team.
      • 0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago
        Well, stuxnet breaks things in one or two specific known ways on purpose and the healthcare site is broken in lots of unknown ways by accident. You think that is fair?
        • nickff 13y ago
          I was trying to be fair to the healthcare.gov administrators, but I agree with you.
• rhizome 13y ago
  The message is clear: top political donors want cheaper labor.
  • mariusz79 13y ago
    "Make no mistake, you will be able to keep that code"
    • schenecstasy 13y ago
      "Let me-ah be perfectly clear. Yes, We Can Code."
    • briandear 13y ago
      "You didn't code that!"
  • api 13y ago
    Yep. Can't have high-paying jobs. That would empower people. We are very rapidly moving toward a time when the labor battles of the late 19th and early 20th centuries will have to be re-fought. History is clearly showing us that the alternative to activist labor is feudalism. In "natural" markets, multiple overlapping network effects cause nearly all wealth to flow to a very tiny number of strategically positioned or connected participants. Everyone else must fight for a slice of the pie. Even in a growing-pie scenario, nearly all the growth flows to the top; a rising tide lifts only the largest boats. The libertarian ideal of volitional culture leading to equality and general prosperity is, like nearly all other political ideals, rapidly shaping up to be false. It's becoming clear that the natural state of human affairs is feudalism, and that anything else is an unnatural state that must be maintained "artificially."
    • dnautics 13y ago
      how's that state-subsidized going to college working out for everyone? Or state-subsidized home ownership?
      • 13y ago
• api 13y ago
  While I think more people should learn code, I think the president getting up and telling everyone to do anything that isn't applicable to... well... every-freaking-one... is stupid. Washington is clueless in two ways. (1) It normally doesn't get new things and lags behind. (2) When it does get things, it proceeds to fail at execution or not really get them and do ham-fisted things like this. So that means that Washington is always clueless about everything. Sometimes I think the only thing that keeps us from being invaded or otherwise run over by the rest of the world is that nearly all other governments are at least as incompetent as ours.
  • kamjam 13y ago
    I agree. How many of those making laws right now know anything about technology let alone how to code? So why does Joe Public specifically need to know how to code? It would be much better to teach people math and proper grammar, that would get them much further in life.
    • eru 13y ago
      What do you mean by proper grammar? Stuff like using "you and me" correctly and not falling into the "you and I" prestige English trap? People acquire proper grammar naturally with their native language.
      • Crito 13y ago
        Proper grammar, for practical purposes, should be defined as "is capable of talking in a way that will not put them at a disadvantage in job interviews". Use of the the word "ain't" probably isn't worth worrying about; stunted vocabulary and inability to match tenses probably is.
        • kamjam 13y ago
          Yes, this is exactly what I meant. I'm not pedantic enough about the "you and me" stuff, or even fully correct in my own punctuation and I'm a native English speaker. But knowing the difference between "there, their and they're" is very important for example.
• thearn4 13y ago
  Wow. Looks like Youtube comments haven't improved much after all. Seriously, it seems like half of the comments seen on Youtube (or at the bottom of any article on a news site) read as if they could have come right from a post on StormFront.
  • middleclick 13y ago
    Also, conspiracy theorists. They seem to have a blast when anything related to Obama is mentioned.
    • infruset 13y ago
      Actually, conspiracy theorists don't exist. They were invented by Obama to distract us from the real issue: who killed Kennedy?
  • brandonbloom 13y ago
    Disclaimer: I'm a major contributor to Code.org's own tutorials. Most of the comments here on HN are similarly shameful. How can free, high quality educational materials, and lobbying to improve access to computer science education possibly be a bad thing? I've talked to a ton of educators and technologists and they are nothing but excited, then I come here, and it's cynics and conspiracy theories.
    • mrschwabe 13y ago
      Shameful? And the president himself is not shameful? We are witnessing the biggest information scandal in the history of mankind ie- 'Snowden revelations' - and it all happened under his watch.
    • downer90 13y ago
      Well, here on HN, there's a different undercurrent of negativity. Keep that in mind, when you read through this thread, because it's an important distinction. On YouTube, what you'll see is a swirling vortex of stupidity from which even light itself cannot escape. YouTube comments barely even break a kindergarten reading level and represent some of the most acidic vomit society can produce. It's like a kind of caustic acid bath, which, in the same way bulimia will destory a person's teeth, YouTube comments manifest as an erosion of intellect. This is a curious result, since Google has made great efforts to curtail obnoxious behavior on YouTube, but with little effect. It appears that the lowest common denominator on YouTube has no shame, and that even when a person's legal given name is exposed on YouTube, the quality of a person's comment remain as awful as ever. This is the context of thearn4's comment. Meanwhile, here on HN, the tone of the arguments is different, and while there will always be an amount of social and political flamebait as ambient background noise, the discussion is not the same sort of bestial braying that you might find on YouTube. The reality, though, is that the best and brightest here at HN are wise to avoid any sort of non-technical discussion, especially when the topic is politically charged and emotional. In most respects, this is due to the phenomenon known as "bikeshedding" where you'll find that the easier it is to have an opinion, the more absurdly conflicting opinions will be found, and the more intractable the topic becomes. In this case, it's easy to have an opinion about Obama, and an opinion about how practical the generalized concept of "programming" is. Thus the thread becomes a dumping ground for everyone willing to share their 2 cents. Still, a dumping ground here on HN will produce higher quality well-sorted recyclable refuse, and not the fuming vat of toxic waste you might find on YouTube. As for the trends in this particular thread, many seem to touch on some key premises: 1. In order to develop a useful appreciation of modern computing, the learning curve of today's state of technology demands a degree of immersive dedication that will rebuke most ordinary people. In some ways this might seem like a jaded, pessimistic outlook, but many are speaking based on personal experience, and not a desire to exclude. 2. The reality of computing as a career choice is a pockmarked mine field, peppered with unique absurdities not found in other fields. The industry surrounding the production and sale of modern computing devices and related services is an active war zone, with fluid and rapid changing fronts. Conflicting interests consistently hatch plans to sabotage one another, and raise the costs to enter the field. This detail is not lost on the HN audience, and contributes to the tone of pessimism. 3. While teaching and learning are admirable aspirations, and no one will dispute that, one cannot easily dismiss certain realities of modern computing history, most importantly that there are major forces at play in this field, with deliberate designs to disinform and disenfranchise end-users of the basic functionality of the devices they may purchase, with the deliberate goal of enriching corporate profit margins. This behavior is exclusionary, regardless of any claims otherwise, and is a hotly debated and emotionally charged political topic. The very topic this video might (perhaps naively) approach. The topic of free open source software. 4. While educators will champion access to computer science education, large business will assuredly attempt to mutate the nature and success of freely available education materials, wherever any ideas presented by such education might come into conflict with a company's business model. 5. Already aware of these premises, differing factions of the HN audience will present opposing narratives for why computer science education will prove impractical and ultimately fruitless. One side will postulate thatsuch educational initiatives will be watered down in the interest of preserving the status quo, and that large companies have a vested interest in preventing certain patterns of learning (conspiracy theories of corrupted industry leadership). Another side will claim that no one wants this education, no one will be good at it, that the majority of people are not a good fit, and that most people are too stupid to learn anyway so why bother (blaming end-users for their own ignorance when most are deliberately misinformed). 6. Both factions cling tightly to a certain kernel of truth in each argument. On the one hand, manufacturers of modern proprietary computing devices have a long and storied history of denying their paying customers of certain hardware and software privileges, solely for the purposes of producing exorbitant profits. Onthe other hand, the rabid stupidity found in a typical sample of YouTube comments is not to be dismissed. Many, MANY people out there are pants-on-head retarded, and they're giving these people computers. Why, god? Why? 7. A third faction continues to express an incensed vitriolic indignation over the Snowden leak. This carries it's own geopolitical context with unique peculiarties which are off-topic with respect to the premise of education, but will continue to haunt anything involving President Obama, The Internet, and American interests therein. Comments pertaining to government attitudes regarding cryptography are relevant to this branch of conversation, and tangentially relate to what industry insiders might not want people to learn about. 8. Healthcare.gov is a buffoonish albatross, blah blah blah... so what. Less distinguished people claim this as an indicator of the potential for competance in any state-sponsored endeavor, and chase their tails about parading any victory they can find, this is where HN starts to go off the rails, and lower order opinions start to emerge. Best to ignore them. To properly define the term "bikeshedding", see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Trivialit... For a distilled digest of some of the types of apolitical technical threads that tend to attract a more distinguished intelligent discussion here on HN, and sidestep emotional exchanges, see: https://lobste.rs https://lobste.rs I don't think HN comments are similarly shameful to YouTube. I think there is a night-and-day difference. Hopefully this will lend context to some of the discussion you see here.
• sciguy77 13y ago
  I have to say, coding is definitely not for everyone. A rather specific kind of person (such as myself) is drawn to program computers. While I enjoy it most people I know would not. Certainly having the option to take Intro and AP CS courses (both of these are available at most public high schools) is great, but "calling on all Americans," to code seems a little excessive.
  • 11001 13y ago
    HN has this funny attitude: whenever someone is "bad at math", it's the fault of our education system and the way math is taught in schools, because everyone is clearly born with good sense of logic, however coding is for some reason such a different skill, and only a selected few (aka HN readers) can truly master it.
    • sciguy77 13y ago
      I didn't mean to sound elitist, its not about "mastering" coding, the question is more about whether someone actually wants to code in the first place.
  • zachlatta 13y ago
    We see programming as a lifestyle, a vital part of our everyday lives. The goal with hour of code is to encourage people to learn programming as a utility, not necessarily as a lifestyle.
  • stormcrowsx 13y ago
    I've taught my daughter the basics of programming with Python to do things like sort her photo library. I think basic programming is a skill any American who uses a computer will find useful and the majority of Americans use a computer from day to day. Knowing programming is a force multiplier in computers. I don't know how many times I've seen someone spend 2 weeks hand editing some stupid spreadsheet that I could have written a script to do in 45 minutes.
  • NAFV_P 13y ago
    While I enjoy it most people I know would not. There is a distinction between satisfaction && enjoyment. I find coding more satisfying than enjoyable.
• fleitz 13y ago
  This could be America's great leap forward into the 21st century.
  • VLM 13y ago
    I'd rather have a 20th century healthcare system, or a 20th century prison system, or a 20ths century set of .gov regulations, or a 20th century separation of church and state, or a 20th century social welfare system or ... Don't get me wrong, I totally look forward to a 23rd century anti-matter power plant or whatever, but there's some huge issues to be solved first. "learn to code, but god help you if you get sick, because we won't" or "learn to code, in a for profit prison, because you smoked the wrong plant". "Or learn to code, quickly, before you get cancer, because we're business friendly now so we don't enforce environmental and food safety laws anymore"
• edtechdev 13y ago
  Here are actual activities people can do online to get exposed to coding: http://csedweek.org/learn http://csedweek.org/learn including an activity for people with no programming experience: http://learn.code.org/hoc/1 http://learn.code.org/hoc/1
• gum_ina_package 13y ago
  Maybe if everyone knew how to code, we could fix healthcare.gov.
  • humanrebar 13y ago
    I am under the impression that this was a project management failure, not a technical failure.
    • 0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago
      No, it's because we need more coders or at least that's the essence of the problem.
    • hga 13y ago
      You are correct. Political and bureaucratic types with no experience in building big systems called the shots until the 3rd week or so of October, and were making major change orders in August, and other changes in the week before launch. And no single manager had it as his personal, full time responsibility (although in fairness, it just occurred to me that anyone savvy in HHS would have avoided such a position like the plague). The infrastructure was grossly under-provisioned, and when the general contractor/integrator including integration testing, HHS's CMS (now "fired" and replaced by the private QSSI) finally did integration testing in the couple of weeks before launch it failed hard. But somehow, in best waterfall in practice tradition, that had no effect on the decision to launch. As I like to say, no Google/Facebook/Lisper dream team could have possibly succeeded given the top down constraints. I can't even see a lot of the contractors putting in their best effort when they had to throw away so much work so often....
  • VLM 13y ago
    Being able to code "hello world" is almost useless, but knowing something about scalability would help. Even if nothing more than "its important". I bet healthcare.gov is full of algorithms that scale just great as long as there's only one state, and one insurance provider, and one healthcare provider (which is a concise subversive political statement of exactly what's wrong with the American sick care system)
• avenger123 13y ago
  This "learn to code" meme is getting tiresome. Why not focus on the more critical skills in life that are more applicable to most people. Here's a big one: 1. Learn to communicate. Improve your writing and speaking skills.
  • Crito 13y ago
    Well presumably because we already are telling people to learn how to write and communicate. Public schools spend more time on those topics than probably any other. Furthermore, advocating mastery of one skill is different from advocating basic literacy in another skill. This said, I agree that "learn to code" is tiresome. Why aren't cries of "learn basic electrical engineering" as popular? Or, if we want clear societal benefit, why not advocate learning how to swim? Thousands of American adults and teenagers drown every year; something like 36% of Americans cannot swim. Of course "either tell people to learn how to swim, or tell them to learn to code" is a false dichotomy (both can be done at once) but I am wondering why "learn to code" gets so much attention. The amount I hear about getting the general public to code seems disproportionate.
    • pmiller2 13y ago
      > "learn basic electrical engineering" Because when, outside of work and hobbies, have you ever found it useful to know basic EE? Unless you're rewiring houses on a regular basis, I can't really think of a common situation where you'd need this type of knowledge. OTOH and IMHO, everybody should know how to use a computer and have at least a rudimentary idea what the thing is capable of. Edit: Actually, rewiring houses isn't even EE, it's whatever we call what electricians do.
      • Crito 13y ago
        A basic understanding of the physics of electricity will give you helpful insight into countless things in your everyday life; you likely don't notice this because you take such a basic understanding for granted. For example, understanding resistance current and voltage will allow you to reason about the efficiency of different sort of light bulbs (the package will give you the numbers and tell you it is good, but consumers are rightfully wary of what packaging tells them), understand how electrical heaters work, reason about their monthly power bill, etc. Knowledge of how electricity works, particularly home wiring, can save lives. Hell, just understanding what a circuit breaker is for and how to use it has the potential to save lives (and you would not believe the number of shoddy low gauge extension cables I have confiscated from my grandmother...) Even figuring out how to jump a car battery becomes much easier if you understand what you are attempting to do. Meanwhile, since you and I can both code, we naturally inflate the importance of it. If we could not code, we would still get along in life just as well as the majority of the population (which by most reasonable accounts, is "just fine"). Basic computer literacy is much different from the ability to code, and this is only becoming more true year after year.
• kunai 13y ago
  Call me a cynic, but I'm really indifferent to this entire "everyone should learn to code" nonsense. There are so many mistruths that Code.org is spreading that it's shameful. Let's get down to the biggest one: that with a "little bit of math and science" you can build the latest video game or write an app. Buzzer #1. It doesn't take just "a little bit" of math. It takes a TON of math. Reading CLRS took me a month to master, and that was already with a background in elementary calculus using the infinitesimal approach. I'm reading Knuth's seminal "Art of," and I can immediately say that it would be absolute hell for anyone without an advanced mathematics background. That brings us to mistruth #2: that somehow, learning to "code" will help younger people build tomorrow. That's utter bull. Learning to code will only lead to worse code: uglier, crappier, and less elegant and efficient code. Github will become a junk pile. Instead of coding, we need to teach students the programming part of computer science. Get a copy of Algorithms into every CS course and get rid of all of the silicon in the classroom. Trust me, people will learn much more meaningful things about problem-solving that way. Isn't that what writing code really sets out to do? You know, SOLVE PROBLEMS? Just code is NOT going to help that at ALL. Then there's problem number 3, and probably the largest one: it assumes that programming is something we need EVERYONE to learn. EVERYONE. Yes, that is Code.org's goal. EVERYONE SHOULD CODE. You know what, fuck it and let's teach EVERYONE TO BE A MECHANIC. Right? Why the hell not? It's like programming. Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum. But people insist on doing the same for CS, as if it's any different. I could go on about this for days. But forget it, Atwood's explained it far better than I ever could. –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– originally posted in the original discussion located here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873136
  • VLM 13y ago
    "Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum" At the elementary school level, my kids attend a psuedo-STEM school and sadly you're not too far off the mark. Its pretty much that and civil. Civil is actually a good one for kids. Give them a beach and some water buckets and shovels and they're happy for days if not weeks. Some clay and dirt works even better although filthier. Its pretty much outdoors only due to the mess, so the kids are stuck with a mostly MechEng STEM
• simlevesque 13y ago
  Do you really need to know some science to code ? From my perspective it is not required.
  • augbot 13y ago
    With the scientific process, one could become an inventor instead of staying a simple laborer.
  • humanrebar 13y ago
    Electrical engineering, computer engineering, and computer science are related. But, no, you don't need to know much about science to make phone apps or webpages. Studying a foreign language or in-depth grammar would probably be just as useful for those industries. That being said, children going into software would benefit from exercising the parts of their brains responsible for patience, tenacity, intellect, technical reasoning, and problem solving.
• jmduke 13y ago
  A lot of people are getting attached to the "every American" aspect of things, and I think its important to note the distance between "knowing how to code" and "becoming a programmer." Amateur programming (for lack of a better term) like basic Python for data analysis or HTML/CSS to work on Wordpress sites (Hell, one of my friends who's a Social Media Manager learned Python to create some QoL scripts for her day-to-day routine.) is growing increasingly popular amongst recent grads. "Whether you're a young man or a young woman -- whether you live in a city or a rural area -- computers are going to be a big part of future. And, if you're willing to work hard, that future is yours to shape." It's hard to argue with the central message there, but we must be careful not to conflate that with the necessity of getting a CS degree. Every American should probably be able to change a tire. That doesn't mean every American should be a car mechanic.
  • TallGuyShort 13y ago
    I love your parallel between car maintenance and coding, and I have repeated it many times myself. I think changing a tire is a reasonable thing to expect every driver to be able to do. Likewise, I think understanding SSL errors is the kind of thing every computer user should be able to do. Not code, necessarily, but understand something about this system you trust with most of your life.
    • mhurron 13y ago
      So how is learning to code going to help with basic computer use skills? One does not imply the other.
      • gknoy 13y ago
        Understanding that the computer is a stupid, un-magical machine which obeys only (and exactly!) the instructions you give it is somewhat of a prerequisite for successfully writing computer programs. (Not exactly true, but it's very helpful.) Understanding that the computer is non-magical also means that your computer users may be more likely to understand how to troubleshoot errors ("Was it something I did, or something out of my control?").
• gfodor 13y ago
  Obama says a few nice things about Computer Science and encourages people to learn more about the world, and HN still manages to find every possible negative angle to trash it. Impressive!
  • gum_ina_package 13y ago
    Obama said a fundamentally ignorant statement that seems even more ignorant considering all the technical problems with Obamacare. Hacker News is just pointing this out.
    • kaonashi 13y ago
      You've told me nothing; you've added an irrelevancy.
    • gfodor 13y ago
      Encouraging kids to try to become astronauts is not an ignorant statement despite the fact that becoming an astronaut is really hard. Telling kids to try to design iPhone apps or make video games is much less so. It's a shame that HN can't recognize what is fundamentally a good thing: a statement from the president encouraging curiosity and proficiency in computer science and programming. It's incredible to me that this community of so-called "hackers" can be so quick to shit on it. Perhaps it's an insecurity thing, and they are afraid if others learn their skills they may no longer be in the position of power they are in now?
      • entendre 13y ago
        When coca cola tells me to smile in an advertisement I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart for their advertising team that agonized for weeks over just the right kind of generic appeal to get me to drink more sugar water.
      • theseoafs 13y ago
        > Perhaps it's an insecurity thing, and they are afraid if others learn their skills they may no longer be in the position of power they are in now? Most of the objections seem to boil down to this. For better or for worse, HN is an entrepreneurial community, and everyone seems to be approaching this with an ultra-logical "this policy will decrease my worth by $X" approach. Post this video on a forum that's geared toward, say, developers of open-source software and see how different the reaction is.
• zwegner 13y ago
  Ugh, we have enough awful, unmaintainable code to deal with as it is. We really need less code now, not more. I'd prefer it if he would call on Americans to learn to think first, or at least to meditate or something.
• natural219 13y ago
  In the back of my mind, I secretly resent this code.org initiative. It is clearly a good effort that needs to happen, but man, I really enjoy my cozy position as a web developer in 2013 making an insane amount of money doing relatively little work.
• larrybolt 13y ago
  I do think it would be a good thing if more people, preferably in management positions or office-positions would get the chance to learn to code, or at least an introduction to it. It would allow them to appreciate the hard work that get's done on the background, make them think twice before defining deadlines and most importantly realise some of the work they do on a daily basis could be automated! In result to that they might at least consider getting in touch with a programmer and trying to find a way to make theirs own job more efficient. But that everyone should go get a degree in CS or everybody should be able to program is to me, the same thing as saying everybody should be able to cook 3 star restaurant dishes.
• jliechti1 13y ago
  Judging from the responses so far, it seems the thread is going to evolve into a similar fashion to these previous threads discussing the same topic (not to say it isn't worth discussing again - but it has come up quite often recently). Most on HN seem to support the idea that not everyone should become a computer programmer (as a profession), but being exposed to the ideas in used in CS are very helpful for learning how to think about certain types of problems. Personally, from a practical standpoint, I think a lot of people could benefit by learning basic scripting to automate computing tasks - I've seen way too many people doing extremely tedious tasks by hand, when a simple script could have saved them hours. ---Similar discussions--- Everybody does not need to learn to code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6237007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6237007 (74 comments) Why everyone should not learn to code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5302157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5302157 (62 comments) Please learn to code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975992 (147 comments) Please don't learn to code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975744 (268 comments)
• JonFish85 13y ago
  While I agree that it's a great mental exercise to learn how to code (and to learn the mindset that goes along with it), isn't it much more important for every American to learn how to budget? To learn how to save money? To me, those are things that are far more important to the country as a whole than understanding even basic scripting. As a quick example, the meaning of "afford" has changed in the last 2 generations or so. To my grandparents, "affording" a car meant being able to spend the money to buy the car outright. To many of my peers, "affording" a new car means being able to make the minimum payment on the car, or even just the lease payment. Many of my peers (meaning my specific circle of friends) don't even budget, nevermind put aside money for the future. Hell, even friends in the finance industry don't contribute to their 401k because they'll "do it later". To me, this is a problem that is very serious for our country as a whole, moreso than people learning to understand some basic code. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great for everyone to be able to understand how computers work at a deeper level than "magic". It's just that I think no one really bothers to teach kids how to save money, to invest, to budget their lifestyle, etc. Just an opinion, though.
  • hga 13y ago
    Isn't that a rather ... subversive concept when a good fraction of those learning it will then apply it to the Federal budget, their state's budget and on down?
    • JonFish85 13y ago
      How is that subversive? It's basic personal finance. It's no more subversive than teaching kids to share toys encourages communism, in my mind. In general, people shouldn't spend more than they make. If they spend more than they make one month a year, but save enough the other months to cover it, no big deal. I don't see how that's any different at a macro level, but I'm also not an economist. To me it's far worse to avoid having people learn basic personal finance things than it is to avoid it, in case some people apply it to bigger things. We have major debt problems in the population, in my opinion. The housing bubble was a part of it: buying things that one can't afford, with the assumption that prices always go up. Credit card debt being near $1 trillion (I think it's around $800b), college loans being over $1 trillion.... Borrowing has been made very easy for quite some time, but just because money is easy to get doesn't mean that the average person should borrow as much as they can (which is what I meant above when I said that affording minimum payments != affording something). Put those numbers up against the median retirement savings, which are ~$150k for households with head-of-household aged 65+[1, Table 7]. It seems pretty obvious that we as a nation should be educating people to save for their future. I guess another solution, which would be to assume that people can't/won't save no matter what, and use the government to facilitate that "savings" (i.e. increase Social Security's role to the primary source of funds for retirement). That way we wouldn't have to worry about people subverting the system and can just trust the government to do all of the hard work for them. That may match up better with your view, if you find personal finance potentially subversive... [1] https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43057.pdf https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43057.pdf (Edited to fix typo: $8b -> $800b)
• pearjuice 13y ago
  >Starring Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, will.i.am, Chris Bosh, Jack Dorsey, Tony Hsieh, Drew Houston, Gabe Newell, Ruchi Sanghvi, Elena Silenok, Vanessa Hurst, and Hadi Partovi. Directed by Lesley Chilcott, executive producers Hadi and Ali Partovi. >Code.org owes special thanks to all the cast and the film crew, and also Microsoft, Google/YouTube, Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter for helping us spread the word What the fuck is this shit? They really pumped billions in marketing!? Is America really that desperate to destroy the only real market it has left? You guys might applaud this but the only thing which this will lead to is unqualified people thinking they know how to program. The job market will get saturated with mediocre programmers and those who really know their stuff will be too expensive to hire or get lost in the noise. We will see an increase of shit code in production. People think they can have a shot at the field which was dominated by us, the outcasts, for years. This worries me, brothers, this worries me. If you think this is anything good, look at what happened with finances. It completely fell under the massive appeal of the mainstream crowd who thought they could become a manger and earn a quick buck. Programming is a serious art, skill and dedication you have to live up to. It shouldn't be - and isn't - for everyone.
  • gfodor 13y ago
    Every kid should be able to learn this stuff and should understand why they would want to. If we have more kids programming in 2013 then I assure you by the time they are in a position to take your job they will deserve it.
  • Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    > Is America really that desperate to destroy the only real market it has left? You guys might applaud this but the only thing which this will lead to is unqualified people thinking they know how to program. < That ship has already sailed, and in the world of corporate/enterprise software development I'd argue it was never really docked, so to speak. Hell, as recently as my last job, less than a year ago, I worked with "business analysts" who, because they put together the front-end forms of an Access database and wrote some basic SQL thought they were "coders". They shouldn't be a source of worry to skilled programmers. These "amateurs" will never be able to take the job of a person who is truly skilled and seeking a position that actually requires that skill, at least not for any length of time. There is some legitimate cause for concern about wages. Big companies would love for nothing more than to see a complete commoditization in the wage of software developers. Hell, I'd argue a significant number already believe that software developers are interchangeable. They'd be right a good proportion of the time, but not nearly as often as they might think (or like).
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• Aloisius 13y ago
  When I was growing up in Silicon Valley, everyone learned to code using Logo in (iirc) third grade. Everyone also learned to type. It was a required part of the curriculum. Teaching us to code didn't mean we didn't learn to communicate. We still were taught math. At no point did the small period in programming and typing done once a week somehow deprive us of critical life skills. It did however have a dramatic effect on myself and a good amount of my class. By the time I was in 6th grade, I knew three people running their own BBSes out of their houses (this was about 1989). Not everyone who went through Bullis Elementary went into programming, but thinking procedurally (though technically Logo is a functional language), is a valuable skill to be learned regardless. In my opinion, being able to break a large task down into simple steps is a critical life skill.
• patmcc 13y ago
  So much work could be saved if most people learned a tiny bit of scripting, or really even what code is capable of doing. My girlfriend was telling me how one of the people in her office spent a few days renaming a huge number of files, so they'd be consistently named. I cringed when I heard that - it was repetitive, followed a pattern, and could have been done in minutes with a python or perl or bash script written in an hour or two by someone with a basic knowledge of code. That's the kind of coding everyone should know - the same way everyone should be able to add columns of numbers without using their fingers.
  • code_duck 13y ago
    I agree with your point. As for the example, it's the type of thing that should be built into the OS. The absence of such features in Windows is the tip of the iceberg on how modern computer OSs have failed users and even society.
  • kamaal 13y ago
    >>ould have been done in minutes with a python or perl or bash script written in an hour or two by someone with a basic knowledge of code. The same would be a day worth work in Java. See the problem there. Its not about learning 'programming'. The scripting guy just could do it because of the familiarity of tools. Beyond all if the people have issues identifying problems. Merely teaching programming isn't going to help.
• bhewes 13y ago
  I call on every American to learn English and possible a second language first. Then maybe we will have more ideas to code.
• briandear 13y ago
  I would be happy if just the Obamacare website developers would learn to code.
• tlongren 13y ago
  This should end well.
  • atulnayyar 13y ago
    Thank's to web world we have open Source Applications where we can master things around us !!!
• pvnick 13y ago
  I frequently disagree with the president, but he really hit the nail on the head with this one. I've been saying for a while now, if we were to replace high school and college foreign language requirements with a computer programming language class, you would propel America way ahead of everyone else (more-so than now) in terms of industry and innovation, and do wonders for the economy, all within a decade. Think about it. Teachers, scientists, psychologists, poly sci majors, doctors, all with basic computer programming abilities. With the ability to build efficiency into their work. That would be so immensely powerful, the investment would be untold dividends. Way more than memorizing spanish vocab for a grade and then forgetting it.
  • oracuk 13y ago
    There are a couple of assumptions built into your proposal that I would want to see some data to support: 1: Computer programming competes with foreign languages in high schools and colleges. 2: The economic value of programming languages is greater than the economic value of foreign languages. Your last sentence also suggests you are comparing apples and oranges, a grade of a foreign language that is dropped against achieving basic computer programming abilities. These are not the same level of achievement. I think understanding computation is a key 21st century skill that we would do well to invest in but I think foreign languages also have value.
    • entendre 13y ago
      1) I don't know what country you're from, but in America here is how it works: In general, competitive colleges require at least two years of foreign language classes in high school. Stanford would like to see three or more years, and Harvard urges applicants to take four years. When a college recommends "two or more" years of a language, they are clearly signaling that language study beyond two years would strengthen your application. No matter where you apply for college, a demonstrated proficiency in a second language will strengthen your application. Students who have just the minimum can win admission if their applications demonstrate strengths in other areas. Some less competitive schools don't even have a high school language requirement and assume some students will simply study a language once they get to college. If you score a 4 or 5 on an AP (advanced placement) language exam, most colleges will consider that evidence of adequate high school foreign language preparation (and you're likely to get course credit in college). 2) Foreign language requirements are originally a product of enlightenment era education curriculum and have been kept afloat with notions that in a globalizing economy candidates who can work internationally will garner higher wages and be more productive. This is true, to a degree, but wouldn't you rather work for a Swedish web design firm from your US based coffee shop?
• johngalt 13y ago
  In other fields we recognize that there is a bifurcation between the knowledge required by practitioners of that field and the base level of understanding from non-practitioners. A 'good driver' isn't expected to know about ignition timing or the stoichiometric ratios of various fuels. For first aid we ask people to learn CPR, not to do '1 hour of surgery'. We expect people to know countries and capitals but not GIS maps. I feel like we haven't drawn the line between user vs creator as clearly in technology. It is accurate to say that more computing knowledge is needed in the general populace. The power of computers/technology is limited by the human operators in most scenarios. But how do we focus on building better operators? Where is our line drawn?
  • GrinningFool 13y ago
    Learning the technology used every day - more specifically and most importantly learning not be afraid to explore that technology - can be done without even touching on programming. It's a lot more akin to learning critical thinking: do not accept that things must be the way they are because you have been told it is so (or because these are the default options presented to you.) But "learn, explore and become comfortable with technology that runs your life" is quite a bit different from "learn to code". I guess to an extent the former qualifies as building better operators - but there seems to be a negative connotation there that I disagree with. You can become a better car operator by learning what all those buttons in your car do. You (and others on the road) benefit from this. As you pointed out, there's little benefit to learning the technical elements of it - while they do affect you, you derive no benefit as an operator of a car from learning them. "I feel like we haven't drawn the line between user vs creator as clearly in technology." I missed this on my first read through, and I think that's a very valid point. My only objection comes back to the negative connotations of being a 'user'. It's always of benefit to learn to be a skilled user of anything you use on a regular basis.
• xname 13y ago
  If he really meant it, if he really cares about education of young Americans, he should try to fight with the sh*t teacher unions. Oh no, that's politics, don't go there. So just let politicians say nice things. Don't let them talk about their dirty politics! Yes, just say nice things! No politics! Nice things like what? When so many US students cannot even do basic math, when third graders are still struggling with addition and subtraction, encourage all of them to learn code. Yes. encouraging is nice! all (meaning equality and justice) is nice! Always! Fight teacher union is dirty politics (how about take donation from teacher union? shut up!). Lets just talk about nice things, bro! Forget dirty politics!
  • wavefunction 13y ago
    If your kid can't do math, that's YOUR fault, not the teacher's.
• andrewcooke 13y ago
  can obama code?
• LionRoar 13y ago
  I went to the code.org site, looked around and tried the objective-C version. I was (positively) surprised that it did work because I am not in the USA at the moment, meaning it's not blocked for non-USA access. The simulator didn't work unfortunately but they did warn about this on the site when I started. After I had done the tutorial I landed on the Summer Academy page where you can do a 8-9 week course in programming. Very nice! Then I discovered that this was certainly not for free: $5000 it will cost you. I must admit I was a little shocked. That is not a price every one can pay for this learning to code adventure. That was a part Obama did not mention. It feels like a standard marketing trap, luring in people to do your course, buy your software, etc. Only difference is the frontman of the show ;) It's proved again: there is no such thing as a free lunch. Now walk on please, nothing to see here.
• krrishd 13y ago
  I wrote an article on this subject (http://krrishd.github.io/blog/post/to-code-or-not-to-code http://krrishd.github.io/blog/post/to-code-or-not-to-code), but I think it isn't necessary to learn all of computer science, but only relevant scripting and design skills.
• hga 13y ago
  Hmmm, I wonder what this says about the iOS ecosystem, where programming on your device is strictly verboten Even former Apple Fellow Alan Kay, chosen by Steve Jobs way back when, couldn't get a suitable for children version of Smalltalk approved. The Gambit-C Scheme crew got their's approved, and then banned.
• bayesianhorse 13y ago
  No code left behind...
• kbudinoski 13y ago
  Can Obama call every doctor or scientist or pharmacist to find cancer cure? Technology has gone too far, medicine and pharmacy are not moving forward. I really appreciate Obama's speech.. but why there aren't any initiatives in other fields...
• cehlen 13y ago
  I think this is an amusing idea; however the truth is most people are not meant to be programmers. For those of you in the industry think back to your first couple of programming classes and the people who could not grasp the idea of a FOR LOOP. There was a small group of people who could do it and larger group that just couldn’t. It’s not personal, I was never meant to play basketball it is what it is.
• Steko 13y ago
  Kevin Drum (spoilers: knows how to code) had the best take on this: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/12/no-everyone-does-not-need-learn-program-computer http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/12/no-everyone-do... But wait. The link leads me to a fairly routine presidential video in honor of Computer Science Education Week, in which President Obama encourages kids to take computer science classes. "It's important for our country's future," he says. But I imagine he's cut dozen of videos for every other conceivable skill that could be taught in our nation's schools. "Nursing is important for our country's future." "Agriculture is important for our country's future." Etc. So did this really lead to a conversation about whether everyone should know how to write code? How tiresome.1 I can probably list on one hand the number of significant skills that everyone should know. The rest are optional. Some of us know how to fix cars and some just hire mechanics to do it for us. Some of us know the law and some just hire lawyers to help us out. Some of us know how to drive trucks and some choose other careers. In any case, I don't think computer programming would even make my top 20 of broadly useful skills.2 It's a great thing to learn if you plan a STEM career or if you just feel like learning it. But useful? For the vast, vast majority of us it's of no use whatsoever. Reading and writing are useful in nearly all careers, and are useful personally even if your job doesn't require them. But coding? Unless it's part of your job, the odds are vanishingly small that it will ever be of much use to you. Nor is it something that's useful in its own right because it promotes clear thinking. Nor is it a steppingstone to other, more broadly useful skills. Coding is a specific skill needed for certain specific jobs. That's it. There's no need to put it on a higher pedestal. 1Tiresome because this comes up so often. Why do so many people insist that whatever skill they happen to know is one that everyone should know? There are lots of skills in the world. All of us know only a tiny fraction of them, and that's the way it should be. 2As a time-wasting skill, however, computer programming is hard to beat. I can no longer count the number of hours I've spent coding (or scripting) little utilities that did me no real good at all. But it was fun!
  • jkn 13y ago
    I think most importantly it's about being computer-literate in a broader sense. Introducing kids to programming should be seen as a general knowledge matter. We introduce children to many fields so that they understand better the world they live in. Coding should be no exception, especially as computing becomes ever more dominant in our society. An introduction to programming would give children the basic vocabulary to understand what it's all about, and maybe the idea to go further when they need to or want to. Importantly, it also serves to demystify the field: a child might feel that programming is way beyond her reach, maybe requiring a significant technical background and complex and expensive tools to do anything? She might look at it differently when she discovers what she can do with Notepad, a browser and 20 lines of Javascript.
• saosebastiao 13y ago
  "Learn Programming...but don't learn Cryptography pretty please..."
• heezo 13y ago
  As a black American, I wish that I were suprised at some of the comments in the video.
  • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    Well I think we're about ready to get some pretty Bell Curve nonsense going here soon. Also, you may be interested in comparing the responses here to Obama's video here and HN responses to similar videos (like the Bill Gates ad).
• Eyes2design 13y ago
  This is why when the government wants a website done, those Shove ready jobs are just waiting for us all. I find this an insult, sure american programmers are far and between but this is not going to help. I Program but I have work for hours using everything I can find online. I have gained a DevOps job without a Degree in CS.
• mmaunder 13y ago
  Talk about a passionless plea. He should be more passionate and the message should be education in general i.e. inclusive of math, literacy, etc. Anyone notice how tired he looks? His eyes are swollen and red. Rough job.
  • th3byrdm4n 13y ago
    It's shallow but that's the first thing I noticed, he looks sick / has allergies, or possibly he is getting over something quite emotional? In other news, I wonder how much coding he does?
• UbuntuJon 13y ago
  I freakin' love Obama.
• NAFV_P 13y ago
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  • wizzard 13y ago
    !upgvj rug aehO
    • NAFV_P 13y ago
      .fgnbtrcnpf rqnz argsb ren lrug abvffrpre rug bg rhQ .tavaeho upgvj rfvgpnec yyvgf lrug qbbu lz qahbE
  • downer90 13y ago
    !hbl uB
• vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Personally I find the contemporary "learn to code movement" to be asinine for several reasons: 1) It supports affirmative action and seeks to set sex quotas. (http://slashdot.org/story/13/11/24/187255/codeorg-more-money-for-cs-instructors-who-teach-more-girls http://slashdot.org/story/13/11/24/187255/codeorg-more-money...) 2) It offers a very sugar-coated and frankly nauseating view of "coding". It adulates this mysterious and powerful essence dubbed only as "code" and is highly biased towards the imperative paradigm. Notice how they rarely use the word "programming", but rather it's always "code". This signifies that they value parroting instructions more over actual understanding. 3) The testimonials by all sorts of celebrities are simply ridiculous and laughable. So many actors, musicians, sports players, politicians and business moguls, but barely any actual computer scientists. 4) The way they present their entire campaign, and considering who backs it, leads me to believe that their motive is not to foster computer science education, so much as to teach people just enough skills to be a 9-to-5 code monkey that can write instructions in Java or some $EnterpriseLanguage. Cheap, disposable labor. 5) Absolutely no focus on software freedom and ethics, of course. 6) Another possible outcome is that by making computer science (rather merely coding in this case) a mandatory subject, they'll end up alienating many kids from it. This depends on the aptitude of the educators, but it's safe to assume it won't be too good. 7) This is arguable, but merely learning to code basic programs doesn't really offer too much insight into the complex process that is software development. The educational value in writing Ruby (used here as an example), while not void, is not that great by itself. Programming languages and natural languages have this thing in common: they're different. Ruby isn't Haskell.
  • beambot 13y ago
    Wow, that was a lot of strawman arguments. (1) The OP's title calls for every American. (2) "Code" is pretty agnostic as far as paradigms. Many people would be served just fine by learning how to do basic computation, graphing, and scripting in Excel. (3) These folks are not computer scientists, but they don't need to be to advocate tech literacy. (4) It's about life skills (esp. tech literacy) -- more like Thoreau-style self reliance rather than becoming a disposable cog. (5) Cart before the horse... (6) You mean like math, science, reading, and writing? (7) Learning to code basic programs helps you accomplish real tasks. Insight into "software development" be damned. I drive a car, but I'm not a ICE thermodynamics expert.
• dadagaaa 13y ago
  Nice. But I would prefer if he first stopped torturing people and putting his own citizens on kill lists.
  • seanhandley 13y ago
    Amen to that.
• wes-exp 13y ago
  It's easy to point to the feel-good topic of education and cry foul when anyone is against it. But here is the reality. America already overproduces scientists and engineers. The whole notion of talent shortages is generally hot air from special interests (in this case, tech companies) who want a cheaper supply of labor and cannot bear the idea that skilled engineers actually cost a lot. A lot of effort is put into trying to turn ordinary folk into high-caliber professionals, with things like "everyone should go to college" or in this case "everyone should learn to code". It's not surprising educators are happy about this as it provides a steady customer base (students). Politicians are happy to support it too, after all what could be bad about more education? The problem is that Joe laborer simply isn't a good fit for STEM fields and no amount of education will change that. He wastes his time and effort trying to become something he's not. In that time he could have been doing something productive and meaningful instead. I've heard good things about the German model of apprenticeship, which accepts the reality that not everyone is cut out for rocket science. I'd like to see something more like that in America and less bullshit like "coding for everyone". People are different... let's encourage them to do whatever they are actually suited for.
  • mikeleeorg 13y ago
    America already overproduces scientists and engineers. Out of curiosity, do you have a link to any evidence or supporting materials to this claim? It's the first I've heard of it.
    • botagrape 13y ago
      http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...
    • wes-exp 13y ago
      I don't have any links off-hand, but I've seen some very convincing, scholarly analyses in the past. The research tends to come up during discussions about H1-B quotas and so on. IIRC, one of the features of a real shortage is supposed to be that prices go up, but in our IT "shortage", wages are approximately flat.
• everettForth 13y ago
  Does President Obama know how to code?
  • xexers 13y ago
    Nope: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-id-fix-healthcaregov-myself-but-i-dont-write-code/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-id-fix-healthcaregov-mysel...
• bdcravens 13y ago
  Should be pointed out that Newt Gingrich did a similar spot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9elnB2wMEP0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9elnB2wMEP0
• bonemachine 13y ago
  Woah Cowboy How ken they lernz 2 kode when their aints enuf $$$ to pay teachers 2 lern themz 2 read n rite????
• ommunist 13y ago
  We've seen that before when in 90-ies everybody tried to learn some Visual Basic and later some Java. Maybe I am wrong, but programming require quite a systematic effort in knowledge acquisition, lots of practice and a good mentor. I also think community is not a substitute for mentorship, well it is a superset of it one may say, nevertheless. When a politician asks everyne to learn how to code, I assume it is already too late for everyone to do it. There are more smart kids in India with IQ more than 100 than there are kids in the US in total.
  • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    The programming revolution of the 90s? I think that was just in your head. Just being honest.
• ender89 13y ago
  Excuse me mister president, but I was born a computer scientist. I have the pictures to prove it.
• mikeleeorg 13y ago
  As a parent, here is how I interpret this: Obama isn't saying my child MUST learn how to program. He is just highly encouraging it. And as a parent looking toward the future, I will highly encourage it as well. However, that's just one useful skill. I believe a lot of skills are very useful. Knowing how to cook, how to change a tire, how to balance a personal budget, etc, are all extremely useful. They aren't mandatory; it's possible to get through life without knowing them, but life will be that much easier with them. So I'll be exposing my child to computer programming, as well as a litany of other things. My aim isn't to turn her into a computer scientist, it's to give her another valuable skill as she figures out what she wants to do with her life. If it's to become a programmer, awesome. If it's to become a doctor, or dancer, or whatever, equally awesome. But at least she'll have exposure (but not necessarily mastery) of a range of useful skills.
• robomartin 13y ago
  I'd rather have every American learn how to vote. Far more damage is being done to this country by ignorant voters. Far more benefit could be derived by having an intelligent, well informed voting population. The best way to protect your future and that of your children is to elect representatives that will truly do what's best. The economic implosion of 2008 had nothing to do with not knowing how to code, write, cook or weld. It had everything to do with horrendously misplaced public policy and legislation. Learning how to critically analize issues without the influence of emotion, religion or political indoctrination to then intelligently cast votes is what we need people trained on. Then again, no politician would want this reality.
  • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    Which is worse, uneducated people voting, or libertarians? I'm not sure.
    • bmelton 13y ago
      Unnecessary political trolling is unnecessary.
      • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
        It's not unnecessary. It's an appropriate response. Why is it that uneducated voters are worse than libertarians?
• vincie 13y ago
  Lets start with Cryptography 101
• dman 13y ago
  I wish algorithms were emphasized rather than code. Programming languages and frameworks are too much in flux right now. Education curriculum dont evolve very quickly so they would be baking in programming as it exists currently and recreate scenarios like Pascal being taught long after it was relevant in the mainstream.
• ConceptJunkie 13y ago
  "President Obama calls on every American to learn code" We tried that already. It was called Visual Basic. It's arguable how much value was created.
• grellas 13y ago
  Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in a digital age and there is incredible value in knowing how to code for the person who really masters this skill. And, among those who do master it, you will of course have various gradations in skill level ranging from profound to excellent to good to competent to serviceable, and these in turn will give the bearer of such skills a range of opportunities commensurate with the acquired skill level (and, when I say skill, I don't mean mere technique but also inspiration, insight, imagination, and whatever else it takes not only to pound something out but to do it in ways that stand out). That said, however, if I were to look, say, at 100 random friends and acquaintances, I would question what good it would do for them to learn a few basics about the syntax of some programming language, to learn a few things about programming objects, and to learn a few things about control structures if the sum total of all those few things is simply to understanding minimal things about how coding works without being able to apply that knowledge effectively to anything in their real-world lives. In my own case in having hacked through some minimal interpretative stuff, I at least had some professional uses for this sort of thing (e.g., using VBA to systematize a few MS Word functions needed in our office). But, even at this level, most of the people around me - being non-programmers - would run in horror from the idea of even getting into that level of trying to interact with a computing environment. For the most part, they were content to know as little as possible about any of the inner workings of a computer and were totally uninterested in delving any deeper. And these are the people who are out there by the millions who have always been drawn to the simplest ways of interacting with their computers (e.g., mouse and not keyboard). In my experience, unless people naturally have a mathematical or engineering "bent," they simply would rather not deal with understanding how something like a computer works beneath the surface but want only to grasp its benefits at the highest level with the least effort possible. If most people are indeed like that (and I believe they are), how would it benefit them in a practical sense, say, for future educational curricula to mandate taking a prescribed course in learning to code. Even if this sort of thing were required, wouldn't this be just like a prescribed foreign language course in middle school that one has but a fleeting acquaintance with, only to have little or nothing stick beyond getting past the requirement for the purposes of passing a class. What residual value would stick from such fleeing interactions with the rudiments of coding? It seems to me that, if one is to derive true value from learning to code, one needs to devote a significant level of dedicated hard work toward that effort and, if one fails to get beyond a minimal threshold, the only value gained is that of a very generalized form of knowledge that has little practical use in the real world. And I would suspect that most people really do not want to devote such an effort to this task. A good many do, of course, and, as noted, this does have huge value in our digital age for those that do. But why expect it of most people? There is nothing wrong, of course, with our political leaders encouraging young people to learn to code and this may inspire some to do so. But coding is not really like, say, writing, where gaining a minimal proficiency leaves one in a much better position than not knowing how to do it at all. It seems that, if most people can't get beyond some minimum threshold to make the endeavor worthwhile, learning to code would not help the great majority of people who are not interested in making the sort of dedicated effort that only a relatively minority will in fact make to justify the effort in practical terms. That is my layman's view. Do those who really know this stuff agree or is this just some disconnected elitist view of people that doesn't fit with modern understanding? I would genuinely like to know because, to me, it does not seem like a close question. Am I just being prejudiced here?
• kevando 13y ago
  Am I crazy or does he look terrible. His eyes are all red like he was just crying.
  • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    What does this add?
    • kevando 13y ago
      It's an observation. Perhaps someone else who watched this video has some information about something that happened immediately prior. I could have been more explicit in my request, you're right.
• gaplus 13y ago
  Learning anything new is all well and good, but the thing that's actually valuable to society and "america's future" isn't really more coders, it's people who are really fantastic at what they do; whatever it may be. I'd rather someone dedicate their life to becoming the best preserve-maker in the world than fixing bugs in groupon. The preserve-maker may not reach billions of people with his/her work, but based on my own observations, I've found that the relative quality of one's achievements in a field has more leverage than the scale.
  • dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    But you're just saying "be the best you can be rah rah." That's nice but not very interesting or actionable. Why even bother saying it?
    • gaplus 13y ago
      hmm I suppose it seems obvious to some people, but I've met a number of people trying to become programmers for reasons that won't get them very far. Just my two cents.
• matthewmcg 13y ago
  Steve Jobs in one of the Bob Cringley interviews: "I think everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer--should learn a computer language--because it teaches you how to think. It's like going to law school. I don't think anybody should be a lawyer, but I do think going to law school would actually be useful because it teaches you how to think in a certain way, in the same way that computer programming teaches you, in a certain way, how to think. I view computer science as a liberal art. It should be something that everybody takes."
  • deleted 13y ago
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• foxhop 13y ago
  I think this message is not targeted at all Americans, I think this message is calling on the younger generations to get back into the hacker spirit.
• clonearmy 13y ago
  Well, then, don't just pass a healthcare law, make a website for it :)
• seanhandley 13y ago
  The main problem I foresee with this is that the American school system is based on a religious school template whereby the students become very good at unquestioningly following instructions... and the whole point of coding is to describe to machines how to do exactly that so we can think about more interesting things. I'm keen to see details of how the US government expects the programme to work. Given their track-record, particularly with the Obamacare site debacle, my hopes are not high. Throwing in a compulsory coding course to the curriculum isn't the answer. Until a decent plan emerges, it's just phony rhetoric.
• pvdm 13y ago
  No. Shut down NSA, then we'll talk.
• EGreg 13y ago
  I think this video was aimed at kids.
• thenerdfiles 13y ago
  He just divided America... How will all the Americans respond who thought guns were the answer around and after WWII? He doesn't say "every American" — what the hell ? He specifically says "young Americans like you". And that CERTAINLY does NOT warrant the question "should everyone know how to code"? If the youth learns to code, the next generation will benefit from this, likely not needing to touch code at all. There's no such thing as "every American". That is totally, utterly, absolutely, invariably not the point. He's talking about the youth — he's calling a DRAFT.
• pedrogrande 13y ago
  I recently spoke at Ignite Sydney and spoke about teaching the world to code :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYx5eEqVBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYx5eEqVBE
• TomGullen 13y ago
  "Don't just buy a new video game. Make one!" This is awesome news for our startup! Should bring in more traffic :)
• Taylorious 13y ago
  I for one welcome anything that exposes people to programming. I don't think it will necessarily transform the US economy or anything, but I think it will be genuinely good for people to have the exposure. K-12 and college students are taught all kind of things that may not click with them or be relevant in their daily life when they get out of school (plenty of people never use math or writing skills in their actual job/life). What I'm getting at is even though many people won't "get" programming or will simply have no desire to pursue it, exposing them to it wont kill them. There are also people who never thought of programming but try it and it does click with them. At my university the intro CS course counts as a language. Since many degrees require a language course, lots of non CS students take it so they don't have to take French etc. A surprising number of strong CS students in my senior class started out in another major, took the intro CS class for their language,and then ended up switching majors! One person was going for nursing before he switched to CS and is now doing graduate level research as a CS undergrad and will be going to get a phd in CS and math. You'd think the guy has been programming since he was in diapers. Unfortunately CS is one of those subjects that a lot of people are never exposed to and will never know if they love it or have a knack for it. It seems like most of the CS majors I have encountered are people who are either computer/math nerds or people were big into gaming and got into programming for that (most of them end up giving up on game programming for well known reasons). I think your average person sees CS as something only math/computer nerds can do and as something that is really hard and math intensive. If they actually had a gentle introduction they may love it and may even be good at it. Lets not kid ourselves, most programming isn't something only super geniuses can do.
  • tmzt 13y ago
    Sounds like an easy way for University to use an incentive to encourage more people into a degree path that might yield dividends for them, and move people away from majors that don't lead into employment.
• russell 13y ago
  If we define programming as the stuff that we on HN do for a living with C, Java, JavaScript, and the like, then teaching every American how to code is a futile goal. Something on the order of half of all CS majors fail the introductory CS course. There is a really eyeopening paper by Saeed Dehnadi and Richard Bornat[1] that has a test that can be given BEFORE the course that demonstrates fairly well who will pass and who will fail. There are 5 fundamental concepts that it tests for - assignment - statement sequence - iteration - recursion - concurrency although that is not needed for basic literacy Read it. It's an eye opener. [1] http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf [Jeff Atwood's link in Coding Horror 7/14/06 is broken] Edited: formatting
• quaffapint 13y ago
  There is not a shortage of programmers. There is a shortage of companies wanting to pay a programmer over 30 a living wage.
• tarellel 13y ago
  Yes exactly what we need, an over saturated job market where the potential to make a living with be under cut. Because company X would rather pay 20k less a year on your cousins high schools son, rather than someone who has spent their life making an art out of studying computer science.
• prezjordan 13y ago
  I've created a collection on Medium if anyone's interested in sharing their personal stories on learn how to code :) https://medium.com/how-i-learned-to-code https://medium.com/how-i-learned-to-code
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• swayvil 13y ago
  While we're at it we can have our brains extracted and placed in jars. Then we can write web pages, surf and play videogames forever. Solipsistic Nation!
• idoescompooters 13y ago
  That's one of the very few messages Obama has made that I agree with.
• arxpoetica 13y ago
  So the obligatory joke would be, he's asking you to learn to code so you can fix his healthcare website. (duh, dum, dum)
• analog31 13y ago
  In my view, the impact of the President's message will not be on those of us who are already teaching our kids programming, but on the kids who live on the other side of the digital divide, and have nobody around them -- parents and even teachers -- who are fully aware of what programming consists of. Many parents think that programming is dangerous. I agree with the folks who have suggested that something like a semester of C randomly inserted into the existing curriculum will be a waste. Instead, the "every American should learn code" message should stimulate debate about what "code" would actually consist of if applied intelligently to the K-12 curriculum. How about music class? So much of contemporary music is programmed. Create music in Scratch. Replace some obsolete math exercises with explorations using spreadsheets or computer algebra software. Let kids use Scratch to write their own data acquisition programs for science labs, via S4A.
• deleted 13y ago
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• naunga 13y ago
  Here's my two cents: We should not be encouraging people to learn to program so much as we should be encouraging people to learn how to construct an algorithm. That's the first thing you need to learn. Kind of like learning how to properly construct a sentence. You need to understand how to express a problem in a step-wise fashion. There's a lot of talk in the technology industry about diversity. Adding more women, etc, but on a whole we need career diversity. Coders, writers, artists, actors, mathematicians, welders, plumbers, cooks, chemists, managers, politicians, and so on. Society takes more than just coders. So let's just encourage kids to get involved in finding a way to contribute that they might enjoy or at least find interesting.
• siliconc0w 13y ago
  The most important aspect is more to think like an engineer (software/system/data whatever). This lets you at least recognize common information problems: Why does this document go to each person serially when it could go to them in parallel). Why do we store all our important data in a word doc on a windows share where it's difficult to collaborate on it. Why are the other business group repeating 50% of what my business group already does. Why are we keeping so many versions/copies of this data - any changes to one copy is exponentially expensive as we have to update the other copies. Why is it so difficult to keep track of projects/issues/tasks/action items/etc? Why am I manually running this report instead of getting it automatically emailed to my team ever week. Why is it difficult to communicate and collaborate to colleagues in different parts of the company. etc. So much modern "work" are really just repetitive information problems that are so common that they're easily solvable by existing tools. Likely free ones. You just have to be able to recognize them and apply the correct solution.
• marincounty 13y ago
  I think it should be taught in school, but it shouldn't be forced on students; sorry, but some of your programming books are 600 pages of absolute boredom. I've wondered for years why computer programming books are so terribly written. It's not a crime to include diagrams, and highlight the really important concepts. I would like to see a Hacakathon for writers of programming books. The shortest book that got across the material would Win!
• intellegacy 13y ago
  I learned to code. Listened to all the advice of hackers who said it was the most important thing ever, and they'd never work with you on startups unless you coded as well. Well I learned. I worked as a software dev for 1 year as well. And you know what I've learned? I have no passion for coding and it makes no sense to force myself to do something I'm not interested in doing. If anyone is interested in working with me on a startup let me know. I'm a founder who knows how to code but doesn't like to.
• gwu78 13y ago
  "Don't just play on your phone. Program it." Easier said than done. Not because it's difficult to learn to code. But because the owner of the phone cannot have uid 0 without "jailbreaking". Nor can she write an iPhone app without getting "permission" from Apple. The closed nature of today's "phones" (which are really crippled handheld computers running UNIX) is the biggest impediment to learning to code and, for those who already know how, to getting their own code to run. Give me a phone that lets me use my own bootloader, my own kernel and my own utilities. In turn, I'll add value to what the phones provide out of the box and help the American economy.
• pjbrunet 13y ago
  Why can't Whitehouse.gov host its own videos using HTML5? That would be more fair to Google's competition.
• jmspring 13y ago
  How about rather than asking everyone learn to code, we encourage everyone (skilled or not) to maybe pick up a trade or other skill with marketable options. Not everyone has the skill set to code, just like some don't have the dexterity to metal work. Maybe we should be encouraging continual education and learning something new. There is way more to civilization than "coding".
  • efuquen 13y ago
    I feel like that's like saying not everyone has the skill set to learn Math, Science, English, or History. And to a sense it is true, there are many Engineers that have terrible grammar, vocabulary, and can't write worth a damn. And then there are plenty of excellent writers, artists, graphic designers have terrible Math skills or know nothing about Science. And then History, let's not get started how many people don't know some extremely basic facts about American history, let alone history from other places around the world. Yet these are all foundational classes up through secondary school. Why are we bothering to teach people things that they will ultimately be bad at? Because we've established that these subjects are so important, that they underly many fundamental things, and that they are important to being a good citizen. Indeed there is more to civilization then "coding" (or computer science, technical literacy, etc.), just like there is more to civilization then any of the numerous subjects I listed above. The point is it's up to us as a society to decide which of these subjects are important to emphasize, which has the most value, and which will help people the most in living productive and good lives. You might not think computer literacy (which has been lumped under the label "coding"), and not just in the learning how to type sense, is that important; but I respectfully disagree. Computers are everywhere and they're not going away anytime soon; far too few people know how they work on the most basic level, I think it's important as a society we address that.
• dsego 13y ago
  Everyone should learn how to solder before learning how to code. Because experience. Hurr durr.
• codeulike 13y ago
  Is this so they can help fix his website?
• MichaelMoser123 13y ago
  i think he is saying the right things! I think there is a problem that many kids like to play games, but that they are not quite interested to look at what is going on behind the scenes (does that sentence make me a grumpy old fart?) Part of the problem is that modern systems and also modern programming language are very powerful, have lots of features, but therefore are hard to learn. One of my pet projects is a programming language for learning how to program http://mosermichael.github.io/cstuff/all/pooh-lan/2012/12/11/pooh-intro.html http://mosermichael.github.io/cstuff/all/pooh-lan/2012/12/11... ; Actually I had the same problem, I am adding and adding features to the language, now that makes its less suitable for the original task. I guess finding the right balance is not an easy task. Interesting, does Obama know how to code?
• agumonkey 13y ago
  Just focus on recursive functions all along primary and secondary school, with a more regular syntax (see G. Sussman on mathematics), and you'll get free programmers.
• mnml_ 13y ago
  I'm not sure the world will be a better place when 313m Americans will be PHP EXPERTS
• Uchikoma 13y ago
  Giving some workshops I did with non IT (marketing, middle management, ...) here at the company, I think a lot can be gained by some 3 hour workshops with e.g. Scratch/Blockly. Understanding the breaking down of problems into commands, loops, conditionals using variables, data structures, functions, about abstracting solutions into more general solutions, about refactoring, legacy code etc. helps a lot, even if one is not "a programmer" afterwards. I can only recommend to everyone doing this at your company.
• amerika_blog 13y ago
  This sounds like politics to me more than anything else. Having everyone learn to code is like having everyone be a paralegal. Most will be bad at it. Neither is particularly difficult, but specialization is a matter of personality more than anything else.
• patja 13y ago
  I don't get the controversy. I don't see this as being about making everyone into a professional programmer, no more than having every student take music class will make them a professional musician. I believe it is more about the ancillary benefits in opening up new ways of problem solving, and having some rudimentary awareness of the inner workings of a world that one might otherwise never have the chance to explore. Some students will catch the bug and tear off on their own journey of independent learning and discovery and create great things. But for most it will just be a new dimension of a full and well-rounded primary education. The problem is that the current generation of educators and schools are largely wholly unequipped to do this, so we have to step up and help out. I ran an after school "Tech Club" for a couple of years at my kids K-8 school. This year the administration asked me to bring it into the classroom and I am teaching 100% of the students in grades 6 - 8 basic programming with Scratch. It is just one 45 minute class per week, with each grade getting the class for one trimester (12 - 13 weeks). You can't do a whole lot in this time, but you can definitely do something, a whole lot more than the school was doing with technology before.
• captamerica 13y ago
  Why does it look like President Obama look like he took a beating on the right side of his face? The right side of his face looks somewhat bruised, even (probably) with the application of make-up, and somewhat swollen. His right eye also does not look right.- It looks somewhat discolored -reddened and swollen.