7 ms·

In Texas I'm surprised it's not legal to shoot a catalytic converter thief if caught in the act. That's what they used to do for cattle rustlers.

ceejayoz 2mo ago
https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground links to https://www.uslawshield.com/defend-property-texas/ https://www.uslawshield.com/defend-property-texas/ > Texas law allows you to use deadly force to protect property if you would be justified in using force, and you reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent the imminent commission of specific enumerated property crimes. These are arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime. I'd think that'd qualify. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE.9&artSec=#D https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE... > Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: > (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and > (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: > (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and > (3) he reasonably believes that: > (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
- sokoloff 2mo ago
  I can’t see a catalytic converter theft on a car parked on the street as burglary. Parked in a (private) garage? Yes, burglary. Parked on the street? No. So, daytime theft of a converter from a car parked outside wouldn’t qualify I don’t think.
  - thaumasiotes 2mo ago
    If you sleep in the car it will qualify no matter where you're parked. This also appears to be true of an RV or any vehicle that clearly accommodates sleeping. For reference: "Burglary" under the Texas penal code is defined by entering a habitation or any portion of a building that is not open to the public, either with the intent to commit a crime, or when followed by the actual commission of, or the attempt to commit, a crime. "Robbery" is theft in which the thief causes an injury to someone else. (Or intentionally threatens to do so.) "Theft" is what it sounds like. Most notably burglary need not include any element of theft. I feel like it's a mistake for the legal code to distinguish between what are fully interchangeable terms in the language the code is supposedly written in. On topic for this particular comment, "habitation" is specifically defined to include vehicles "adapted for the overnight accommodation of persons".
    - thejazzman 2mo ago
      > Private Domicile, BITCH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEdaQcq4w88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEdaQcq4w88
    - logicchains 2mo ago
      >I feel like it's a mistake for the legal code to distinguish between what are fully interchangeable terms in the language the code is supposedly written in. They're not at all fully interchangeable, just many Americans have a poor grasp of the English language.
      - thaumasiotes 2mo ago
        The language is solely defined by what people think it means. The terms are in fact fully interchangeable. If you'd like it packaged in something that looks authoritative, you might consider the following definitions from Merriam-Webster: burgle: to commit robbery rob: to take away as loot : steal thieve: steal, rob
        spolitry 2mo ago
- chadgpt3 2mo ago
  You can legally murder people to prevent "mischief", as long as it's at night? Wow.
  - thaumasiotes 2mo ago
    The alternative would be completely incoherent. If it's OK to prevent theft, the appropriation of property, it must also be OK to prevent criminal mischief, which is the destruction of property. Note that the harm to the victim is identical in both cases, except that in the case of theft, recovery may be possible.
  - nekusar 2mo ago
    Yeah. You expect pigs to defend you?
  - nonethewiser 2mo ago
    “Legal” murder makes absolutely no sense. If its legal its not murder. You mean “legally kill”
    - aidenn0 2mo ago
      It can also mean unjustified/immoral killing, which can be a useful definition (otherwise e.g. a true dictator can never murder anyone).
      - rayiner 2mo ago
        That’s not a useful definition in a democracy. Who gets to define what’s justified if not the duly elected legislature? I bet if you put the current Texas law on the ballot today you’d get the same answer.
        ipaddr 2mo ago
        If you put that on the ballot in other states this would be more popular than initially thought by most.
        2mo ago
- bulbar 2mo ago
  Deadly force can be lawful in Germany as well, reading Texas law I wonder which nuances of the laws make the biggest difference (assuming there's one). Could also be that the difference comes from owning land works differently in Germany (because it's much more densely populated) and of course owning anything except small guns is completely forbidden.
  - butvacuum 2mo ago
    people freqently conflate Stand Your Ground vs Duty to Retreat... with the entire rest of the debate. I'm trying to keep this neutral, so I'm using a rather cut and dry example: Somebody kicks in your door with a pump action and starts shooting- There are _some_ jurisdictions that require you to try and flee. You kill them and they werent bodily blocking your car in? Murder charge. investigation finds a sabatoged engine? Doesn't matter. Stand Your Ground assumes reasonableness and codifies leaveing the fight or flee decision up to the individual. Ultimately- you're going to have PTSD either way.
    - crote 2mo ago
      Your example isn't quite as cut-and-dry because in a lot of cases that's going to involve the Castle Doctrine as well, and "starts shooting" means there is an actual danger merely than a perceived potential danger. Counter-example: You're walking on the streets, at night, in the "bad part" of town. Someone walks towards you with their hands in their pockets, and their head covered with a hoodie. They say "Hey, what are you doing here?". You perceive this to be a threatening situation and fear for your life. Are you supposed to: a) pull out your gun and shoot them, or b) run away? Some proponents of Stand Your Ground would say that option A is perfectly fine, some proponents of Duty To Retreat would say that you must attempt option B first, and fall back to option A only as a last resort.
      - butvacuum 2mo ago
        It seems I may have misremembered my example and inadvertantly made duty to retreat appear worse than it is. However- it was meant to highlight the positons both sides and it holds correct enough for thst still.
- butvacuum 2mo ago
  First off- Texas has an explicit law making copper and catalytic converter theft a "Jail felony"- but if you break any other laws on the way, it's upgraded to a class 3 felony. See: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE.31&artSec=31.21 https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE... And. if you really want to play cops and robbers, a personally witnessed jail felony seems to be enough for a citzen's arrest. Second: "(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury." - YOU HAVE TO BE AFRAID FOR YOUR LIFE Texas gives citizens enourmous latitude in these matters, but it's not carte blanche for murder.
  - dmurray 2mo ago
    Afraid for your life if you were to confront the thief. That reasonably covers pretty much all cases, especially in a state where lots of people have guns.
    - crote 2mo ago
      In other words: don't be an idiot and call the cops instead. That's what they are supposed to be for!
      - redeeman 2mo ago
        and the thieves got away
      - NuclearPM 2mo ago
        Texas cops? The ones that stop parents from saving their children during school shootings?
        derektank 2mo ago
        The Uvalde police department exhibited both cowardice and incompetence, but can we stop pretending they are representative of cops everywhere? Just a year later during the mall shooting in Allen Texas, cops took down the white supremacist, neo-nazi perpetrator in under 5 minutes, probably saving at least a co couple dozen lives (he’d already killed 9). You can watch the bodycam footage from that event if there’s any doubt https://youtu.be/LWvKT5fHa0U https://youtu.be/LWvKT5fHa0U
dghlsakjg 2mo ago
You can use force in Texas to stop property crime. Fire away, I guess.
hopelessluca 2mo ago
My comment may sound cliché, but I genuinely believe this, no material possession is worth more than a human life. A catalytic converter can be replaced, a life cannot.
- Geonode 2mo ago
  The thief shouldn't value something more than his life then.
  - rationalist 2mo ago
    More specifically: The thief valued the gain of the crime more than the risk of the crime.
- bryanlarsen 2mo ago
  That's not cliché; Texas is the only state that applies stand-your-ground to crimes against property alone.
  - giardini 2mo ago
    bryanlarsen says "Texas is the only state that applies stand-your-ground to crimes against property alone." Not true.
    - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
      Not true in which direction? If another state allows it, which one? Lots of states apply stand-your-ground against robbery, but robbery is a threat to a person, not just property.
- GaryBluto 2mo ago
  Nobody is forcing people to risk their lives to infringe on other people's rights. Whenever I see a news article about a criminal killed in the act, I never think "I wish they were alive.", I think "I wish they never went down that path in the first place that lead to that scenario."
exabrial 2mo ago
I would love to live in a world where thieves feared for their lives.
- cosmicgadget 2mo ago
  Sounds like Texas is the place for you.
  - ultrarunner 2mo ago
    No, I think their civil forfeiture rates are quite a bit higher than average. Property taxes too. Quite a bit of fearless thievery going on in Texas.
    - cosmicgadget 2mo ago
      Civil forfeiture, sure but the property taxes are presumably to offset the lack of income tax, neither of which is thievery outside of a Zerohedge comment section.
    - giardini 2mo ago
      Yeah, but who know how many thieves end up dead. And regardless of state, there's always revenge - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071402/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071402/
- 3eb7988a1663 2mo ago
  Yet I believe crime still happens in Texas.
- jrflowers 2mo ago
  You want thieves to be armed?
  - AlexandrB 2mo ago
    They frequently already are. Even here in Canada[1] where any kind of "carry" is generally not allowed. Shockingly, thieves often don't care about gun laws though. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-cash-reward-fairview-mall-robbery-shooting-9.7178567 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-cash-r...
zippyman55 2mo ago
https://media.makeameme.org/created/ai-is-going-28c40ae773.png https://media.makeameme.org/created/ai-is-going-28c40ae773.p...
guillybarres 2mo ago
If you do that in Texas they'll give you the key to the city. A man was once acquitted after using an AK-47 to shoot an escort who was being driven away after robbing him of $150: https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/06/07/texas-prostitutes-jilted-killer-acquitted-was-trying-to-retrieve-stolen-property-says-jury/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/06/07/texas-prostitutes-jil....

ceejayoz 2mo ago

https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground links to https://www.uslawshield.com/defend-property-texas/ https://www.uslawshield.com/defend-property-texas/ > Texas law allows you to use deadly force to protect property if you would be justified in using force, and you reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent the imminent commission of specific enumerated property crimes. These are arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime. I'd think that'd qualify. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE.9&artSec=#D https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE... > Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: > (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and > (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: > (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and > (3) he reasonably believes that: > (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

sokoloff 2mo ago
I can’t see a catalytic converter theft on a car parked on the street as burglary. Parked in a (private) garage? Yes, burglary. Parked on the street? No. So, daytime theft of a converter from a car parked outside wouldn’t qualify I don’t think.
- thaumasiotes 2mo ago
  If you sleep in the car it will qualify no matter where you're parked. This also appears to be true of an RV or any vehicle that clearly accommodates sleeping. For reference: "Burglary" under the Texas penal code is defined by entering a habitation or any portion of a building that is not open to the public, either with the intent to commit a crime, or when followed by the actual commission of, or the attempt to commit, a crime. "Robbery" is theft in which the thief causes an injury to someone else. (Or intentionally threatens to do so.) "Theft" is what it sounds like. Most notably burglary need not include any element of theft. I feel like it's a mistake for the legal code to distinguish between what are fully interchangeable terms in the language the code is supposedly written in. On topic for this particular comment, "habitation" is specifically defined to include vehicles "adapted for the overnight accommodation of persons".
  - thejazzman 2mo ago
    > Private Domicile, BITCH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEdaQcq4w88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEdaQcq4w88
  - logicchains 2mo ago
    >I feel like it's a mistake for the legal code to distinguish between what are fully interchangeable terms in the language the code is supposedly written in. They're not at all fully interchangeable, just many Americans have a poor grasp of the English language.
    - thaumasiotes 2mo ago
      The language is solely defined by what people think it means. The terms are in fact fully interchangeable. If you'd like it packaged in something that looks authoritative, you might consider the following definitions from Merriam-Webster: burgle: to commit robbery rob: to take away as loot : steal thieve: steal, rob
      - spolitry 2mo ago
chadgpt3 2mo ago
You can legally murder people to prevent "mischief", as long as it's at night? Wow.
- thaumasiotes 2mo ago
  The alternative would be completely incoherent. If it's OK to prevent theft, the appropriation of property, it must also be OK to prevent criminal mischief, which is the destruction of property. Note that the harm to the victim is identical in both cases, except that in the case of theft, recovery may be possible.
- nekusar 2mo ago
  Yeah. You expect pigs to defend you?
- nonethewiser 2mo ago
  “Legal” murder makes absolutely no sense. If its legal its not murder. You mean “legally kill”
  - aidenn0 2mo ago
    It can also mean unjustified/immoral killing, which can be a useful definition (otherwise e.g. a true dictator can never murder anyone).
    - rayiner 2mo ago
      That’s not a useful definition in a democracy. Who gets to define what’s justified if not the duly elected legislature? I bet if you put the current Texas law on the ballot today you’d get the same answer.
      - ipaddr 2mo ago
        If you put that on the ballot in other states this would be more popular than initially thought by most.
      - 2mo ago
bulbar 2mo ago
Deadly force can be lawful in Germany as well, reading Texas law I wonder which nuances of the laws make the biggest difference (assuming there's one). Could also be that the difference comes from owning land works differently in Germany (because it's much more densely populated) and of course owning anything except small guns is completely forbidden.
- butvacuum 2mo ago
  people freqently conflate Stand Your Ground vs Duty to Retreat... with the entire rest of the debate. I'm trying to keep this neutral, so I'm using a rather cut and dry example: Somebody kicks in your door with a pump action and starts shooting- There are _some_ jurisdictions that require you to try and flee. You kill them and they werent bodily blocking your car in? Murder charge. investigation finds a sabatoged engine? Doesn't matter. Stand Your Ground assumes reasonableness and codifies leaveing the fight or flee decision up to the individual. Ultimately- you're going to have PTSD either way.
  - crote 2mo ago
    Your example isn't quite as cut-and-dry because in a lot of cases that's going to involve the Castle Doctrine as well, and "starts shooting" means there is an actual danger merely than a perceived potential danger. Counter-example: You're walking on the streets, at night, in the "bad part" of town. Someone walks towards you with their hands in their pockets, and their head covered with a hoodie. They say "Hey, what are you doing here?". You perceive this to be a threatening situation and fear for your life. Are you supposed to: a) pull out your gun and shoot them, or b) run away? Some proponents of Stand Your Ground would say that option A is perfectly fine, some proponents of Duty To Retreat would say that you must attempt option B first, and fall back to option A only as a last resort.
    - butvacuum 2mo ago
      It seems I may have misremembered my example and inadvertantly made duty to retreat appear worse than it is. However- it was meant to highlight the positons both sides and it holds correct enough for thst still.
butvacuum 2mo ago
First off- Texas has an explicit law making copper and catalytic converter theft a "Jail felony"- but if you break any other laws on the way, it's upgraded to a class 3 felony. See: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE.31&artSec=31.21 https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE... And. if you really want to play cops and robbers, a personally witnessed jail felony seems to be enough for a citzen's arrest. Second: "(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury." - YOU HAVE TO BE AFRAID FOR YOUR LIFE Texas gives citizens enourmous latitude in these matters, but it's not carte blanche for murder.
- dmurray 2mo ago
  Afraid for your life if you were to confront the thief. That reasonably covers pretty much all cases, especially in a state where lots of people have guns.
  - crote 2mo ago
    In other words: don't be an idiot and call the cops instead. That's what they are supposed to be for!
    - redeeman 2mo ago
      and the thieves got away
    - NuclearPM 2mo ago
      Texas cops? The ones that stop parents from saving their children during school shootings?
      - derektank 2mo ago
        The Uvalde police department exhibited both cowardice and incompetence, but can we stop pretending they are representative of cops everywhere? Just a year later during the mall shooting in Allen Texas, cops took down the white supremacist, neo-nazi perpetrator in under 5 minutes, probably saving at least a co couple dozen lives (he’d already killed 9). You can watch the bodycam footage from that event if there’s any doubt https://youtu.be/LWvKT5fHa0U https://youtu.be/LWvKT5fHa0U

dghlsakjg 2mo ago

You can use force in Texas to stop property crime. Fire away, I guess.

hopelessluca 2mo ago

My comment may sound cliché, but I genuinely believe this, no material possession is worth more than a human life. A catalytic converter can be replaced, a life cannot.

Geonode 2mo ago
The thief shouldn't value something more than his life then.
- rationalist 2mo ago
  More specifically: The thief valued the gain of the crime more than the risk of the crime.
bryanlarsen 2mo ago
That's not cliché; Texas is the only state that applies stand-your-ground to crimes against property alone.
- giardini 2mo ago
  bryanlarsen says "Texas is the only state that applies stand-your-ground to crimes against property alone." Not true.
  - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
    Not true in which direction? If another state allows it, which one? Lots of states apply stand-your-ground against robbery, but robbery is a threat to a person, not just property.
GaryBluto 2mo ago
Nobody is forcing people to risk their lives to infringe on other people's rights. Whenever I see a news article about a criminal killed in the act, I never think "I wish they were alive.", I think "I wish they never went down that path in the first place that lead to that scenario."

exabrial 2mo ago

I would love to live in a world where thieves feared for their lives.

cosmicgadget 2mo ago
Sounds like Texas is the place for you.
- ultrarunner 2mo ago
  No, I think their civil forfeiture rates are quite a bit higher than average. Property taxes too. Quite a bit of fearless thievery going on in Texas.
  - cosmicgadget 2mo ago
    Civil forfeiture, sure but the property taxes are presumably to offset the lack of income tax, neither of which is thievery outside of a Zerohedge comment section.
  - giardini 2mo ago
    Yeah, but who know how many thieves end up dead. And regardless of state, there's always revenge - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071402/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071402/
3eb7988a1663 2mo ago
Yet I believe crime still happens in Texas.
jrflowers 2mo ago
You want thieves to be armed?
- AlexandrB 2mo ago
  They frequently already are. Even here in Canada[1] where any kind of "carry" is generally not allowed. Shockingly, thieves often don't care about gun laws though. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-cash-reward-fairview-mall-robbery-shooting-9.7178567 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-cash-r...

zippyman55 2mo ago

https://media.makeameme.org/created/ai-is-going-28c40ae773.png https://media.makeameme.org/created/ai-is-going-28c40ae773.p...

guillybarres 2mo ago

If you do that in Texas they'll give you the key to the city. A man was once acquitted after using an AK-47 to shoot an escort who was being driven away after robbing him of $150: https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/06/07/texas-prostitutes-jilted-killer-acquitted-was-trying-to-retrieve-stolen-property-says-jury/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/06/07/texas-prostitutes-jil....