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Over 170k Nonprofits Lost All Their Data. Is Microsoft to Blame?
- jmclnx 1mo agoYes :) But really depends. I saw somewhere NPR lost 70 years of content doe to a Cloud bill not being paid on time or something ? I forgot the details. I am sure there will be more of this since companies are depending on the Cloud for their data storage. Now with AI, who knows what will happen. I expect Cloud Admin people will eventually be replaced by some AI type system. Companies really should backup all data and send off-site. But that will never happen because god-forbid, they will need to hire a real person.
- mentalfist 1mo agoNine PBS (PBS member station) lost 50tb/70 years of archives due to cloud provider ending operations abruptly
- ButlerianJihad 1mo agoFalse: they did not lose the data; they temporarily lost access to it, because of Iron Mountain's security policies. They are, necessarily, pursuing remedies in court. They can and will regain access.
- deleted 1mo ago[deleted]
- WalterGR 1mo agoFor more info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49285418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49285418 - "Nine PBS sues Iron Mountain over blocked access to archival data" - 229 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49333344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49333344 - "Judge sets framework for Nine PBS to retrieve archival data" - 75 comments
- KetoManx64 1mo agoThey lost data because of their incompetence and not actually having any backups.
- rbanffy 1mo agoTheir cloud provider was in charge of backups.
- KetoManx64 1mo agoYou can try to offload responsibility from them, but every IT and DevOps person that has an inkling of competence knows you don't store your backups in the same place as your prod data.
- _joel 1mo agoIt wasn't?
- Dylan16807 1mo agoIn the sense that I haven't seen any evidence there were backups, yeah they didn't have backups and prod in the same location. Or are you nitpicking about the word "prod"? Pretend they said "primary copy" instead.
- _joel 1mo agoIn the sense that what the op wrote was wrong. You know, factually incorrect, bull, a yarn. Speaking as someone who used to let Iron Mountain come in to take backup tapes *off premises*
- rbanffy 1mo agoI always advise people who have backup tapes to have a local copy AND the one Iron Mountain takes to their fortress.
- WalterBright 1mo agoAnd today you can buy a 20tb drive for under a grand.
- sixtyj 1mo agoCloud is nice if it works. Web hosting is nice if you pay for it. In history timeline, future archaeologists will probably see almost nothing, some books… as we are used to past centuries. But clouds, servers… gone. BTW don’t use SSD for archiving.
- rbanffy 1mo agoNever keep your data and your backups in the same place. That’s true for in-office servers, data-centres and cloud. If you must use cloud, use two different providers for your own services and backups. Also, have a disaster recovery plan ready, and exercise it regularly.
- sixtyj 1mo agoMaybe I am in echo chamber, but none I know exercised recovery plan… ;) except of power plants and othe critical infrastructures, and maybe large enterprises. Others imho use 3–2-1 approach but haven’t tried to recover data.
- rbanffy 1mo agoI am happy to say I have a different experience, but I’m in a different echo chamber, and have been in very regulated spaces where DORA is unforgiving. Ideally, for a non-profit, you want a hands-off process as much as you can. If you need to, backup to whatever your cloud provider has for S3 buckets, on a different account.
- 3RTB297 1mo agoIt really can't be understated how many non-profits operate on a shoestring budget and over-extend that few staff they can afford as a standard operating procedure, and have very low technical skill among everyone as they're mission-focused with what little resources they have. I've worked with and for a couple non-profits where IT help was someone's spouse or kid or brother willing to help out. Often I've been the spouse. Often a shared Google drive filled with poorly managed PII is the solution that works well enough...until something bad happens.
- 12_throw_away 1mo agoYep, this is the sort of thing happens when you've deeply internalized that trustworthiness and continuity is not important. Microsoft today is not a serious company, it is not run by serious people, and it is at the forefront of a deeply unserious industry.
- Gys 1mo agoAs long as the legal department is very serious, that might work rather well.
- lynndotpy 1mo agoMicrosoft is serious because the world is full of people with needs who do not know better and Microsoft is still the default to serve those needs. Something does not have to be useful, benign, consistent, worthwhile, or deserving to exist in order to be serious. For example: Losing an arm and an eye to a fireworks accident, being grievously assaulted in an alley, or having Microsoft arbitrarily delete all your data, are all very serious things. So, I think it is fair to say Microsoft can still be called serious.
- margalabargala 1mo agoNo. Just because an entity is able to do things with serious consequences, does not mean they are a serious entity. For other examples, see school shooters in the US.
- vkaku 1mo agoPeople are better off using LibreOffice on a Linux desktop
- KetoManx64 1mo agoAs a daily Linux user and enthusiast, I detest statements like this. You did not read the article not the problem that those companies have and your only solution is "Use LibreOffice" without any actual interest in what their problem is or what an actual solution to their problems is. People like you push newbies away from Linux. Using LibreOffice does not give you web sharing, nor permission systems, nor automation workflows, nor easy to use access controls, nor so many other things.
- vkaku 1mo agoNope. I actually care enough to make this statement. Using such subscription products and then getting rug pulled isn't something easy for non technical users. So just start with sovereign, better governed products with clear transparent pricing and better affordability to begin with. Data interchange formats are more important than ever, and having programs that don't do too many things is just as important. Not everyone starts thinking about Google Docs or WebDAV to begin with, and actually ... LibreOffice does a decent job here. https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/guide/cmis-remote-files-setup.html https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/guide/... Don't bring up imaginary problems on Linux that people don't have. Losing access to accounts on a computer or a cloud service due to skunky companies is totally happening today though.
- pdonis 1mo agoDid Microsoft give fair warning of what was going to happen to the data in the cloud that was stored there under these licenses? (I don't have a Slate account so I can't read the full article to see if this is addressed.)
- lynndotpy 1mo ago> What happened to Khosla was just one instance of a crisis that has rocked small nonprofit owners across the globe, who allege that Microsoft failed to communicate with them in a substantive manner about the license cancellations and left them unable to prepare their organizations for the future. As they’ve related online, these already resource-strapped nonprofits have lost troves of data, are struggling to continue their operations, and have been left unable to make up the technology gaps with alternative services. People who run service orgs with low budgets and benefited for years from Microsoft’s programs no longer have much of the technology they need to keep things going—for either the short or long term. This quote contains linked sources but I can't see them since they're largely on Reddit and Facebook. The Microsoft ones suggest people were blindsided by this cancellation, and that the official support channels in Microsoft are broken. It seems like everyone who was blindsided also tried to submit an official support ticket and was unable to, which is in line with my experience interacting with Microsoft.
- rbanffy 1mo ago> the official support channels in Microsoft are broken I can say, from first hand experience, the very best cloud providers have support channels that are, at the very least, unpleasant to use.
- NordSteve 1mo agoI'm a tenant admin for a non profit. Just looked and I have 8 emails to two different addresses warning me about the transition. None were caught in the Microsoft or Fastmail spam filters.
- deleted 1mo ago[deleted]
- what-the-grump 1mo ago[flagged]
- danpalmer 1mo agoThat's good, but this article explicitly covers this with multiple people citing not receiving any contact.
- ahepp 1mo ago> On Reddit, and across Microsoft’s own Tech Community forums, more such claims abound of surprise deletion without notification. I clicked the link with text “more such claims”, and it appears to be someone complaining about being unable to reach a human after their devices were physically stolen. Not sure how that’s related to the claims in the article. https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckMicrosoft/comments/1ub7i1h/microsoft_has_left_our_childrens_charity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckMicrosoft/comments/1ub7i1h/micr...
- ares623 1mo agoThere must always be an "Oracle". With Oracle at risk due to its AI investments, it is fitting that Microsoft takes its place.
- yieldcrv 1mo agohttps://archive.is/eZTJb https://archive.is/eZTJb
- cavem0nkey 1mo agoNo Microsoft is not to blame. Whoever sells themselves into an all encompassing ecosystem with no exit plan or backup is to blame. It’s absolutely stupid thinking even if it’s the norm these days. The cloud is a convenience at most and an expensive one. You do everything you need to do somewhere else and pray that no one else gets in or you get shot. This is a warning to everyone else. Heed it.
- Brian_K_White 1mo agoMS is absolutely to blame for their part. Sure also the victim should have known better. So what?
- cavem0nkey 1mo agoMicrosoft wouldn’t have a business if there weren’t so many fools around.
- tomhow 1mo agoPlease avoid this kind of scolding, berating tone on HN, and omit sneers, swipes, and name-calling from comments. The guidelines make it clear we're here for curious conversation, not this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cavem0nkey 1mo agoSorry I didn't feel this was scolding but I look back and see it may be taken that way. The nature of the comment was that we should strip the narrative about this being a non-profit from the discussion and apply what is left to ourselves. It acts as a warning that we should really evaluate and consider our trust relations with a vendor who has control over everything that we do. And make sure we don't make the same mistakes.
- snayan 1mo agoBrother, you are living in a bubble. This article is about a group of people who are trying to make the world a better place in their own little way. Many of them do not have the technical skillset to understand the potential future problems they have since run into. Many of them, as you acknowledged, probably chose this option for convenience. Is it ideal? No. Is it the reality of the world we live in? Yes. A bit of empathy goes a long way, doesn't cost you anything. You're not going to win many people over to your cause with this kind of vitriol.
- exabrial 1mo agoWho is still using Windows
- thunderfork 1mo agoBusinesses?
- usr1106 1mo agoGovernments. Many housholds, I guess over 50% in many countries. It's a cancer.
- rustcleaner 1mo agoI do, but inside a qube in Qubes OS. :^)
- Ylpertnodi 1mo agoMe (W10). It runs the software I use.
- kraussvonespy 1mo agoApproximiately 60-70% of desktop / laptop users worldwide use Windows according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... The big problem with shifting users from Windows is training. Corporations aren't going to pay to train their employees in something new if they don't absolutely have to. With that said, now that Windows workstation prices going crazy because of RAM/storage/GPU inflation, I hope that we see a shift to more memory efficient operating systems (anything based on UNIX like Linux and MacOS) but need 2x-8x memory (along with fast storage) to have a similar experience running Windows 11.
- WalterBright 1mo agoI abandoned Microsoft Outlook Express many years ago after discovering that it kept the files in hidden directories, and were in some scrambled, undocumented format. There was no backup mechanism for it. I replaced it with Thunderbird Mail.
- fingerlocks 1mo agoGood news! New outlook stores each email in a separate tarball of html. Bad news for your hard drive though
- motohagiography 1mo agoIf the records for many of these NGO's get subpoenaed, it sounds like some of them can claim force majeure? So shocked.
- iwontberude 1mo ago[dead]
- effnorwood 1mo ago[dead]
- valicord 1mo agoAccording to https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/commerce/subscriptions/what-if-my-subscription-expires?view=o365-worldwide https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/commerce/sub... the data should not be deleted for 90 days after license expiration - what am I missing?
- brookst 1mo agoThe massive disconnect between “should” and “how the systems really work” that even people at Microsoft don’t know.
- lelandfe 1mo ago> This article applies to all Microsoft 365 for business subscriptions I suspect the nonprofit arrangement is not an example of a "Microsoft 365 for business subscription" Although the old nonprofit FAQ calls it, "the Microsoft 365 Business Premium nonprofit offer" https://web.archive.org/web/20260223193546/https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/nonprofits/faq https://web.archive.org/web/20260223193546/https://www.micro...
- eddythompson80 1mo agoI really highly doubt that. The way Microsoft uses the “for business” branding is not in an IRS/legal way to distinguish between for-profit vs nonprofit entities. Rather more like “Discord vs Slack” or “a subreddit vs zendesk” type offering. “For Organizations” would really have been a more appropriate branding. Governments around the world, including the US government, used plenty of “For Business” software from Microsoft. However, the “for business” branding tells you where the money came from. So a nonprofit would almost certainly be on a “for business” subscription type. That is to distinguish it from a “for students”, “for home”, or the default “for one person” subscription type.
- foolinaround 1mo agoconsidering that most non-profits barely have any data, i dont know what MS' incentive is, in not holding on to the data... it definitely must be in the TBs
- verytrivial 1mo agoSomeone had an "income per tenant" performance metric perhaps?
- neuroelectron 1mo agoThis is no accident. Microsoft knew exactly what they're doing, working through notifying and transitioning 170,000 customers is a lot of work. That work isn't free for Microsoft to provide. Cutting them off probably saved them $billions and many years of expensive, partial service deprecation.
- verytrivial 1mo agoMaybe. There's also about five guys at my work who would have loved the opportunity to use an LLM to set up a "non-propfit-brownout-pipeline-orchestrator" to transition 99% of these account to either a newly billable account, or a "bye-bye.zip" export available to the admin account. Two weeks of effort, tops.
- trollbridge 1mo agoMeanwhile, other AI firms are thirsty for data - Microsoft could have just slipped in a terms of service change to allow training (it’s sort of in there already), and presto, exabytes of data to train on, with full metadata so you even know if it’s pre-2022.
- m463 1mo agocouldn't the bill and melinda gates foundation (if still called that) help with this?
- rectang 1mo agoWhy not start with a brownout? Make the data temporarily inaccessible, but don’t actually delete it immediately.
- systemstops 1mo agoThat was devastating to a summer camp that do so volunteer IT work for. By the time they called me, the data was long gone.
- rustcleaner 1mo agoThis is the fruits of subscribing (even if it was 'free'). #NeverSubscribe #OnPremAlways
- Aeolun 1mo agoSo they built their thing on free handouts and were surprised that didn’t continue?
- tgv 1mo agoDepends on what information was given at the moment of "handout." I cannot remember reading anywhere that your data would be deleted when you opened a free account. Data and storage limits, that was it.
- verytrivial 1mo agoSure, but there's a difference between losing the website hosting your bottomless mimosa brunch school reunion, and a non-profit organisations losing all their shared files after taking up an offer of a no-cost a license from MSFT to support their mission. The nature of the "thing" matters IMO.
- fergie 1mo agoMeanwhile, my Flickr account still has my pics despite threatening to delete them for like 15 years.
- iamniels 1mo agoThis is wrong on so many levels. First of all, IT admins receive weekly e-mails from AWS, Google and MS that a certain service will shut down and that it will affect operations. In 90% of the cases, these e-mails are sent to all customers instead of only the affected customers, so admins get alarm fatigue. Secondly, instead of doing a rug pull, what's wrong with a 2-month brownout period? Only allow the admin to login, put OneDrive in read-only mode. That will alert all users clearly. Thirdly instead of fending of the questions from slate.com with Orwellian corporate speak, they should acknowledge their mistake and spend a couple of weeks of the highly paid engineers to see whether they can recover the data. Why is it always so hard for MS to say "Sorry, we made a mistake".
- KronisLV 1mo ago> Why is it always so hard for MS to say "Sorry, we made a mistake". Seems like no corpos ever want to say that. Surely it’s not because of some pride or PR? I’m guessing such an admission might also sometimes have legal risks?
- prymitive 1mo agoSaying sorry means admitting guilt. If there’s guilt there some level of harm. If there’s harm you can be sued. Avoiding being sued due to causing harm usually means increased costs, because you now need to take care you didn’t take before. Higher cost means you’re less competitive. Being less competitive makes you less attractive investment target. So as always it’s all about money. Saying sorry == lower share price.
- conception 1mo agoThe worst thing you can be in America is wrong. Our entire public society is built around, not admitting guilt or wrongdoing in any way shape or form.
- verytrivial 1mo agoAs other mention, the "right" way to do this is to withdraw access but keep the data for at least 30days. At least. Let people give you money instead of them vowing to never trust you again in any sphere of influence they have.
- Hendrikto 1mo agoDo not rely on the generosity of corporations, I guess.
- isolay 1mo agoYes. Clear exception to Betteridge's law of headlines.
- vfclists 1mo agoWhich part of the widely held and propagated opinions that such big corporations are owned and run by sociopaths/psychopaths do these NGOs not understand?
- pkphilip 1mo agoAmazing! How in the world is Microsoft able to get away with something like this?! Even a smaller software company will have better systems to ensure that the customers don't lose all of their data.
- krunck 1mo agoNot your servers, not your data.
- bigbuppo 1mo agoYes, Microsoft is to blame, specifically all current c-suite execs. They're so addicted to increasing their subscription revenue they're willing to burn down everything good they've ever done for just one more dollar. Expect carnage when a handful of large customers say, "Enough is enough" and jump ship.