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The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel
- Day44 3mo ago[dead]
- raxxorraxor 3mo agoAs a European these texts are always a bit embarrassing. The evil USA that abuses our data... No, European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week. You don't need the evil USA to reject biometric data gathering by government. You just need to get your largest boot and point it at the arse of the next public official that is responsible for YOU. Not some imaginary enemy behind a bit of water ffs... rant off The mistake isn't some agreement with the USA, the problem is that this data might be available in the first place. And yes, this is a case where government/EU is NOT able to safeguard it. Other than that the text is correct and then we should just need to deal with the realities of needing visas again. > EDRi recommends the Commission and the Council to push back against the US government’s blackmail and refuse to sell people’s personal data There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Especially if said officials have zero problems with this kind of surveillance. They just have to pretend that they do.
- dominotw 3mo agoEveryone needs an enemy to cope with their own flaws.
- cindyllm 3mo ago[dead]
- functionmouse 3mo agoIf you're really planning on kicking some official's ass, you'd better do it quick before your feet are shackled.
- dgellow 3mo agoThere is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data
- raxxorraxor 3mo agoThe data in the hands of officials in your jurisdiction is far more relevant than the other way around and there is little control about the data for domestic usage.
- ekianjo 3mo agoin the EU you have no way to vote for things to change either
- jimnotgym 3mo agoThe EU Council is made up of delegates elected from member states. The EU Parliament is directly elected. Just because countries keep electing people with variations of the same policies doesn't make it unelected.
- notrealyme123 3mo agoIt's ok to be angry, but this is just wrong.
- victorbjorklund 3mo agoOf course we do. Is it easy? No, because no party runs on it. Just like it’s not easy for Americans to vote to change either.
- dsomers 3mo agoYes you do. I elected my European member of parliament, and I elected my EU councillor. The elected EU councillors select the commissioner, a bureaucrat, and the elected parliament can block anything the commission puts to a vote. That’s two elected offices, and one bureaucrat that’s appointed, but can’t act without consent of the elected officer. Just like many other democracies around the world. It’s democracy, just with some responsibility delegated to bureaucrats, who can still be overridden or removed by elected representatives. What’s so hard for you to understand about that?
- dwroberts 3mo ago> European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week. This is kind of besides the point though right. If you think EU nations already have serious issues why would you then also export personal data to another nation that has those same issues and worse?
- Vinnl 3mo ago> There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Isn't there upside to the US too if more Europeans visit the US?
- account42 3mo agoExactly, and of course the EU can (and should) also reciprocate and apply the same restrictions to US travellers. There kind of visa-free agreements existed in the first place because they interest both countries involved.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- lukasbm 3mo agoThe future is bleak.
- Telemakhos 3mo agoThe future is bleak if you are attempting to cross borders with a forged or stolen passport. Nobody else is adversely affected by this.
- one33seven 3mo agoYou really put a lot of trust in countries that are rules by oligarchs and where a far-right is rising to power...
- shiandow 3mo agoThe U.S. accessing my personal data causes immediate harm and completely unacceptable risk.
- villish 3mo agoand yet you use american sites and services like this one, where you freely give even more personal data than fingerprints like your interests, thoughts, and more! I see comments like this all over hackernews but the truth is you actually don't care. You have a choice to not use HN/Reddit/YouTube/whatever but here you are.
- maratc 3mo agoThe point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway. There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one). As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoIf the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?
- kalleboo 3mo agoI would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?
- RandomLensman 3mo agoIs there a high incidence of forgeries?
- bluGill 3mo agoProbably not high, but forgeries are the people of most concern. Most people are honest travelers (either on business or vacation), and will go back home. Most people only commit crimes of the type "I didn't know this thing was illegal here: it is legal and common back home" - and the agent who catches it responds "I find a bunch of you every day who didn't know that - just put it in the destroy bucket and have fun" (technically they can arrest you for trying to bring something illegal in, but they know this is an honest mistake that isn't worth doing anything more about) The forgeries are rare, but they are also the people customs cares most about. Those people who are planning to commit a serious crime of some sort.
- trolleski 3mo ago[flagged]
- Vinnl 3mo agoIt's not clear to me if this would allow access to all biometric data, or "just" to that of people crossing the US border? And for the latter, what data are we talking about? If it's mostly fingerprints, don't those already get collected upon crossing the border? And can't they already be read from a passport's chip?
- some_random 3mo agoIt's just for people crossing the border, and yeah it's mostly fingerprints. The point is mainly to detect fraudulent passports, and the rest of the data is self explanatory (the US obviously is interested in people visiting that EU agencies have flagged for being potential terrorists).
- calgoo 3mo agodo they actually say that they can only do a lookup when checking a visa, or are we giving api access to the US government and saying "Dont do evil" >
- some_random 3mo agoIf you expect that level of incompetence from your elected officials than maybe the problem isn't the US.
- tremon 3mo agoYour comment presupposes that there can be only one problem; I don't think that's a valid assumption.
- NietTim 3mo agoSupposedly it will be only requested for people crossing into the US. But it's not 2012 anymore and we all know better.
- andix 3mo agoI guess the US can freely request data on any citizen. The home countries don't know if you are actually traveling into the US. Direct flights are not the only option to reach the US.
- cm2187 3mo agoI fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.
- christkv 3mo agoAll it means that you do not have to go to the embassy and stand in line
- basisword 3mo agoI've never had to do this for a visa for countries that required one. It was all online.
- izacus 3mo agoFor US visa you absolutely have to.
- iso1631 3mo agoFor any US visa you do, and you can't take electronic items or bags with you. Costs a lot more too. A reason I refused to go to Syria a couple of years ago. A colleague who did go said "oh I have a US (i) visa so I'm fine". I asked "how about in 20 years time when you've left a company which will pay for you to have a US visa. He hadn't considered that. A friend of mine went to Libya on behalf of the US military about a decade ago. He is no longer eligible for a US esta and thus has to get a visa if he goes on holiday. Last time I went to India I had to get a real visa which involved travelling to an office in London and waiting around for a couple of hours. It's quite normal for people of "lesser powered" countries who don't have the power of passport that the US and Western European citizens do. Even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you would have to fly for hours to a major Russian city a couple of weeks in advance to apply for a visa to visit the UK. When I went to Pakistan in 2010 it was even worse. Well until I gave up and then used a visa agency which just handled it all for me. Last time I tried to go to India I went for an electronic visa, and after 7 days of "waiting" they updated it to say "declined". No explanation.
- artisinal 3mo agoLast time I purchased a new passport my fingerprints got scanned and sent to a French private company. Not sure if this is worse or not.
- tokai 3mo ago»It is on this basis that EU countries would then adopt their own bilateral EBSP agreements directly with the US (or adapt their existing arrangements).« So nobody has sold anybody out yet. The solution is to never visit the USA.
- maratc 3mo agoYou seem to have forgotten the first part of the "solution": be an EU citizen. For those who are neither US nor EU citizens, both immigration systems are a hassle, and in my experience the EU's is sadly a worse one.
- edelbitter 3mo ago>The solution is to never visit the USA. The negotiation is only necessitated by the insistence on making travel not a prerequisite for potential harm. The US requests to query information beyond the validity of documents they can prove to have been physically presented to US officers.
- some_random 3mo agoWhat a stupid, hysterical claim. This "sensitive data" is just what's on your passport, fingerprints, criminal history, and terrorism flags (from European agencies), only for people crossing the border. I don't see how you could defend not sharing any of that.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- chrystalkey 3mo ago...uhm You are happy to share your home address and everything else to securely identify you to a government acting increasingly erratic? Because I am not. I would be happy if terrorism-flagged people are shared across borders, but not everyone. Remember once the dataset is there, it is not ever going to go away, regardless of who is in power
- some_random 3mo agoIf you don't want the US to have your date of birth, photo, fingerprints, etc then don't go to the US. It's that easy.
- tremon 3mo agoAlso don't have a Facebook account, don't shop with Amazon, don't use an Android or Apple phone, don't work for a company that uses Office365. Sounds real easy doesn't it?
- _zoltan_ 3mo agoBah. Stop fearmongering. All of your lists are choices. You could chose not to. But you don't because it's convenient. Amazon shopping doesn't need a photo or fingerprints or date of birth.
- dralley 3mo agoMost of those don't require fingerprints or photos. Those that require addresses, do so because they're literally billing and/or shipping items to you. And none of them is comparable to physically entering another country. I, a US citizen, got fingerprinted by passport control in Austria 2 weeks ago, and they took a picture of my face and asked for personal details. That's pretty much how passport control works universally in any developed country, only the "how they get the information" changes. Sometimes they already have it and sometimes they ask for it.
- rocqua 3mo agoUnder the assumption that this framework is somewhat sane and only shares biometric data of those people who actually request an ESTA, I don't see the issue. This data already leaks whenever you travel legally to the US, because they take it from you as a requirement of entry. All this does is let them check the data they take on entry against the provided data. Which seems fair. The fact this data is already in passports is a very different matter, but that is something the EU has done voluntarily.
- edelbitter 3mo ago> those people who actually request an ESTA I order to know who actually requested it, information needs to be shared that previously was not. (I can think of technical schemes to limit this to less scary recipients and data, but however you do it, some necessary side-effect remains: Citizens of the EU who do not make such request cannot remain entirely unaffected.)
- internet2000 3mo agoAlarmism doesn't help anyone.
- nonick 3mo agoRomania and Bulgaria are in the EU and don't even benefit from visa-free travel to the US.
- speak_plainly 3mo agoThis is a good thing for travellers. In border security there are generally two camps, one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks, and generally makes travelling easy for the average person, and the other is like traditional cops using traditional tactics… the kind that will miss the person smuggling a kilogram of cocaine in their suitcase but will go after the old man who didn’t declare a pair of socks he bought on a trip. They generally make travel awful. Support the intelligence-driven side of border security and reject the traditional cop camp.
- samsartor 3mo agoI want to agree with this. My fear is that governments and corporations love using technology to launder evil shit. Once security is automated, entire groups of people can be quickly and effortlessly disenfranchised by flipping a bool on a server somewhere. No appeal, no recourse, no human faces. You get to find out from some LLM that you aren't allowed in the country anymore because the "algorithm" identitifed you as a risk. uwu so sawd It only works if the "intellence-driven security" is being developed in good faith.
- khuey 3mo agoThat already happens. Witness all the random "bans" and "pauses" Trump has instituted against various nationalities and groups of people at the border.
- afarah1 3mo agoThe same can be said about Flock, or other surveillance state mechanisms. It's good for security, it's more convenient than police doing police work. Until it's not. Until it's hacked or abused as powerful mechanisms commonly are.
- arlort 3mo agoThere's some level of difference to be fair Hacking is a concern in both but the bigger issue is potential for abuse of power. In the case of border checks the target is by necessity someone that isn't a citizen. This means that: 1. We generally afford them less safeguards than citizens so it creates less precedent (both legal and in terms of overton window) 2. The potential for abuse is ultimately less because a traveler on a short term visa is unlikely to still be in the country / unable to leave if a hostile government comes to power and intends to abuse the data Also fingerprints and a picture are significantly less invasive than pervasive video surveillance in public spaces
- was_a_dev 3mo agoAs an aside, I always find it amusing that as a British person that have visited both the US and the Schengen area since the new entry/exit system. Both the US and EU have taken my biometric information (i.e fingerprints) but the UK government has not.
- Ylpertnodi 3mo agoMy UK passport from 8 years ago has biometric info.
- was_a_dev 3mo agoBiometric data in UK passports is nothing more than the digital storage of the information in your passport (name, age, passport number, facial photo). The UK government does not collect any additional data
- bambax 3mo agoBorders are generally insane. But they are especially rich coming from countries, like the US or many European countries that got most of their wealth from pillaging other territories. Walls and steel doors are bad enough but it's a good thing we're not birds, or else the world would be covered with wire mesh.
- khurs 3mo agoI assume this works both ways? And USA is in return 'about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel' too
- gib444 3mo agoOn "selling out" claims. Yet again people not reading the article and trying to misrepresent who was the driving force: > In 2022, the US government announced that it would require access to biometric databases of countries if they wish to keep visa exemption for their citizens travelling to the US Big bad eu !!11!?!
- throw-the-towel 3mo agoSo, that wasn't even Trump.
- pluc 3mo agoWhy isn't screening tech globalized on a planetary level? Shouldn't someone like INTERPOL take care of that?
- petcat 3mo agoI doubt the US would ever outsource something like this (border security) to an international organization like INTERPOL. It uses INTERPOL to track down and catch wanted people abroad, but that's it.
- pluc 3mo agoWhat do you think is stopping the US? It could be privacy but I don't think that would hold up in the public court as the US is way worse than EU when it comes to privacy regulations... what else? Control? And we're not talking about "border security" in its entirety, just the screening/identifying part.
- petcat 3mo agoFrom USA's perspective, Interpol is a tool. The same as the rest of Europe's agency and governance concoctions (ICC). It is not any kind of authority or even a reliable mechanism to do what it wants.
- pluc 3mo agoSure, no problem with that, use Interpol's screening tech as a tool - that's what it is. Just a repository of information that you access and then decide what to do with the result just like any other API hit
- anvuong 3mo agoNo chance the world powers (US, China, France, UK, etc.) will allow something like that unless they are the one who create and enforce it. It's basically the first line of defense for homeland security: don't let terrorists into your country.
- EasyMark 3mo agoThis is not something I have a real issue with. Most of my privacy concerns are with my own government (the USA, Flock, various TLAs have unfettered communications access in violation of the 4th amendment, etc). I think the exchange of information should be mutual though. I don't care if they want to check me out before I enter their country, seems like a basic step. However, that info should not be shared until one gets a ticket/visa to said foreign country.
- joeblubaugh 3mo agoThis is exactly what the EU does for foreigners entering
- trilogic 3mo agoI do not agree and do not consent to give away my biometric data. With which authority is this happening? Some are about to loose their job.
- cromka 3mo agoSell? Is US paying for it?
- NietTim 3mo agoSo let me get this straight: - Currently travelers to the US need to give biometric data each time they enter - New DB connection between EU and US for this purpose - People will _still_ need to give biometric data each time they enter in order to validate that they carry valid information Further more, they claim that _the US_ will only request data from travelers. But, my country doesn't know if I travel and where. So the supposed privacy guarantees are empty claims. It's not 2012 anymore. Everyone knows better, as soon as they get access to that DB, they will start working on scraping all data from it. There is 0 upsides to this.
- hexo 3mo agoBiometric database thats supposed to not exist at all in the first place? Interesting.
- angry_octet 3mo agoIt shouldn't be possible for the US to request this data without the passport being physically present at a US entry facility (border, airport checkin scan, consulate) where fingerprints/photos are actually compared. Before that point, only passport information tuples should be queryable, i.e., "Is {passport number, name, dob, pob, issue date, expiry} valid?". We should remember that the current (and likely future) administration is actively hostile to transgender and intersex people, and persecutes US citizens with changed gender identifiers. Discrimination based on ethnicity is only one Overton-lurch away.
- cloudie78 3mo agoDemocracy at work. Can we have a referendum on this? Or dirty peasants don’t get a say in this?
- JodieBenitez 3mo agoDo it the EU way: ask the question, then ignore the answer.
- raverbashing 3mo agoThese are the people that support "Decolourizing digital rights" (whatever that means). Sounds like they also don't believe in borders or immigration enforcement, etc I can't take them seriously
- ihsw 3mo ago[dead]
- shevy-java 3mo agoThis kind of reveals that the EU is undermined by lobbyists. The real actions are too obvious - this is an act of betrayal by EU "politicians". Then again this is not uncommon either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_th... At the least the orange king does not hide his attempt to pillage as much money as possible while refusing to explain who all visited the sexy Epstein islands. I have a ... slight suspicion some billionaires not known yet have also partied with underage girls there.
- curioussam 3mo ago[dead]
- MarceliusK 3mo ago[dead]
- alden5 3mo agoAm I the only person increasingly paranoid about the inevitability of having to give my fingerprints to the government? Once they're out there you can't exactly change them and in the future i'm sure imaging technology will become significantly advanced enough that a portable device could be made that identify everyone who touched a scanned surface. Maybe it's just a phobia I've had since I was super young but fingerprints feel like a really sensitive piece of biometrics to give up. I live in the US and have traveled to europe a few times but have never been fingerprinted as far as I'm aware.
- _zoltan_ 3mo agoFinally.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3mo agoThe EU is not a serious institution, it's run by tasteless fraudsters 0 vision for the future I could use much stronger words, but it's not worth it How can you rally talents and visionaries when rulers are acting like that Such a waste
- LIMEVINCE 3mo agoWhat a surprise, I heard nobody wants to travel to the US anyways. EU leaders seem to be making concessions for pretty much nothing. USA first needs to make the country desirable to visit before discussing ways to make it easier to come into the country -__-
- protocolture 3mo agoActually a plot point in Charles Stross' Empire Games trilogy from memory.
- heyaco 3mo agodirty -scus. saw this christian make mabies with those things
- mancerayder 3mo agoWas Global Entry in the US a tactic to trick us into giving up our biometric data for speedy re-entry? I can say it's now barely faster than waiting behind the line for the stamper officials in their booths.
- hulitu 3mo agoSell it ? That's a change. They give it for free.
- usr1106 3mo agoUnless it has changed recently Germany has no general database of biometric data. Of course law enforcement has for the cases they work on, but for the average passport holder the data gets destroyed once the passport has been accepted by the citizen. So it remains only decentralized in passport chips. It's probably an exception in EU.
- lbschenkel 3mo agoIt is exactly the same in Sweden: biometrics are stored only until the passport/ID is manufactured, then destroyed. Only copy is on the chip. At least this is what the law says, and how it is supposed to be. Reality on the ground, though? I am skeptical that the implementation is as perfect as the law requires it to be, especially judging by the quality of the average government IT system...