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Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the pe

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep reading before judging). We have lived here for more than six years, and you know what? I still haven’t obtained either permanent residence or German citizenship simply because I don’t have a B1 certificate. So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here. I was honestly devastated when the officer told me that I was not eligible for permanent residence. That was also the moment when I started to feel that maybe I don’t actually need permanent residence in this country after all. Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. One bright thing is that maybe we’re still lucky. We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. We simply worked hard and played the game in a way that we believed would be sustainable in the long run. Whatever happens, we know there are still many other places we could go. Our children speak German natively, but they are also willing to go the extra mile to speak our mother tongue at home. If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!

svara 3mo ago
Genuinely happy to hear you're successful here! But, why would you expect there to be no drawback to not knowing the local language when moving to a foreign country?
- ikut3hva 3mo ago
  Definitely, I had a good awareness of the language barrier from the day I arrived. To be fair, I have continued learning German—not because I want to pass the B1 examination and obtain permanent residence, but because I feel my children need to be protected and guided, and I want to teach them the same things they learn at school. Every moment I spend learning the language is a moment I invest out of love, so that I can be a better and more supportive parent.
  - jitix 3mo ago
    Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step. From what I found (and as another commenter pointed out) the bar is not even that high. Edit: For context I am not a right winger and am an immigrant myself. But I am seeing the social fabric of my host country (Canada) degrade because of immigrants' refusal to assimilate.
    - romanhounds 3mo ago
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      - joe_mamba 3mo ago
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      - ath3nd 3mo ago
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    - blks 3mo ago
      Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that country as needed.
lispisok 3mo ago
So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?
- brewdad 3mo ago
  Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society. Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.
  - angott 3mo ago
    > Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of. Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.
    - pimterry 3mo ago
      One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.
      - volkl48 3mo ago
        Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).
pimeys 3mo ago
Hey. I'm with you there. My German also kind of sucks, but I've had a very successful 15 years in Berlin. The best part is how easy it is to pick jobs from the neighboring countries, like France. You pay taxes here, you commute maybe once a month to Paris and enjoy the prices and quietness of Berlin. We are lucky with my partner, and bought finally our own apartment. My partner, an American, is fluent with the language so it helps. My plan is to make a good amount of savings, take a year or so of sabbatical and finally learn the language. Until that, we go with bar Deutsch.
- ikut3hva 3mo ago
  Thank you! I skimmed through your text, and for a moment I thought we were working at the same company with its HQ in Paris, haha. Honestly, you brought up a valuable point that I didn’t cover in my original comment. Living in Germany has been one of the best ways to strengthen our relationship, especially when one of us couldn’t speak German and the other stepped in to help. Some people may see this as a fragile vulnerabilitye, but I see it as part of our growth.
  - pimeys 3mo ago
    For me it's only about getting into the local scene more now, to learn the language. I kind of started to finally understand the German inefficiency, the distributed nature of the country and their culture. Now when we bought our apartment, the need to be part of the culture is bigger than ever. And at the same time I'm so busy for the past 10 years already, there's more work than ever in my life. Just need to say stop one day, take a year off and go to language school. P.S. I don't think it's the same company: the other devs are either in Paris or in Scandinavia.
kombine 3mo ago
My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.
- sigmoid10 3mo ago
  I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are sure you will leave again after that stint, but the above commenter doesn't seem to fall into this category either.
  - RugnirViking 3mo ago
    To be fair, B1 and especially B2 are not trivial requirements. A1 you will "pick up" like you say, but it's easy to fall into a trap of remaining around A2 without sustained effortful studying. (If you try to do it through just interacting with natives with no structure it's common to fossilize mistakes which take much longer to fix, or even just become permanent) Personally I've gotten to B2 (not Germany) which is enough for most purposes, but it would have been very possible to get stuck in a rut. It's very common for couples that move here for one to have a job, and the other to spend some months unemployed looking for a job. It's generally observed that those that have the job learn the job much slower and get stuck, and the ones that spend time at home and looking have much better outcomes longer term
    - sigmoid10 3mo ago
      B1 to B2 is a big step. Bigger than A1-2 to B1. B1 is basically just understanding people who speak slowly and clearly and being able to participate in everyday life situations. So a very gradual progression. B2 is already being able to do professional work in that language. This is what will take considerable time and active study. But it is also not a requirement for naturalisation in most countries. And many natural born citizens also never reach C1-2 level of proficiency either. So if you're B2, you may as well be counted as fully integrated.
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NorthSouthNorth 3mo ago
You can get B1 with a bit of spare time. With kids, I understand it's a different situation; however, it took me about 2 years to get there, learning in my spare spare time (which after a certain point was just listening to audio books before bed). The compounding effect works. BUUUUT, even with B2, it's just not enough for avoiding "the look", as you put it. I think you need flawless C1 or something, idk. Don't care anymore lol.
- merb 3mo ago
  Most b2 holders can’t even speak German. B1 is not that much better nowadays. You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these and as a small company with only DACH customers it’s most often not worth it
  - quadrifoliate 3mo ago
    > You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these Any specific examples? I'm a bit surprised because I thought that the German certifications were quite standardized. So I would expect B1 certified people to be able to speak in everyday situations.
    - wink 3mo ago
      Not the person you replied to but they mentioned DACH + customers. As someone from Bavaria... I have several stories of coworkers who speak and understand decent German but put them on a phone or a in a room with people who speak in a thick German dialect and they will understand 10%. Functionally useless.
    - merb 3mo ago
      > Any specific examples? well how should I do that? Basically all application data is basically protected data and needs to be deleted pretty fast. I'm not sure if the certificates are even real in some cases. Some applications also look extremly similar, besides that they have a distance between the two applicatiants of over 200 km.
yorwba 3mo ago
FWIW, for Blue Card holders, after 27 months the language requirement drops to A1 and even if you don't have a Blue Card after five years you could also get an EU permanent residence without language requirement: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-permanently/settlement-permit https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-... Though I would recommend setting yourself a target of some small (≈10) number of new words to learn every day and practice them during your commute or so. B1 is achievable in under a year with consistent practice. The official word list has 2400 entries: https://www.goethe.de/pro/relaunch/prf/de/Goethe-Zertifikat_B1_Wortliste.pdf https://www.goethe.de/pro/relaunch/prf/de/Goethe-Zertifikat_...
- deleted 3mo ago
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- 0zer0 3mo ago
  This. With this much income you should qualify for a Blue Card. The 27 months start when you are eligible, not when you are actually holding the Blue Card. A friend of mine (w/ Blue Card) got permanent citizenship in Germany after the 3 years and was not asked/tested for any language skills. As long as you speak a little German to follow the process it is pretty easy.
- quite-sfwd 3mo ago
  Learning 10 words a day is not a small amount. Unless you count conjugations.
eldaisfish 3mo ago
There is yet another angle that people don't like to discuss because it is uncomfortable. Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. This makes it nigh on impossible to integrate fully in these countries. The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same. In the german case, take the words of Messut Ozil, the former footballer - when the German team wins, he is German. Lose, and he is the immigrant. He is ethnically Turkish, i.e. not ethnically German. The same will apply to your kids as well. I want to be clear, not every German person is a frothing racist, i would argue that the racists are a minority. It is, however, important to note that the reactions of the individual and the reactions of society can be different, sometimes polar opposites. In sharp contrast to this are the US and Canada, where there is no shared definition of "white" even though the majority of their populations are ethnically European. In that case, "European" spans everything from Irish and Greek, to French and Austrian. Less than a hundred years back, Irish people were not seen as white. Today, that idea is laughable. The fundamental difference between the US and Canada on one side and German or european society on the other is that the old world is built around exclusion, while the new world is built around inclusion. This is one important reason why skilled immigrants leave europe, and is also why i left.
- dizhn 3mo ago
  Mesut Özil was himself very German until he retired and saw the potential in cozying up to Erdoğan. Now he's a nationalist.
- deleted 3mo ago
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- bcye 3mo ago
  > Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. What do you mean by it being the bedrock of society? I haven't found ethnicity to be an important part about being a citizen here at all.
  - kuschku 3mo ago
    > A nation state, or nation-state, is a political entity in which the state (a centralized political organization ruling over a population within a territory) and the nation (a community based on a common identity) are congruent. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state The traditional view taught in history books is as follows: > Before the french revolution, states extended as far as their kings' military power allowed them to, and the king derived his claim to power from god. > After the french revolution, states formed around the concept of a common shared ethnicity, language, and culture (nation), with the claim to power deriving from the people. > This shared national identity was instrumental to the unification of many separate kingdoms into the German confederation. EDIT: That view is not necessarily correct (see the comments below), but it is what most people will have learnt in school
dgs_sgd 3mo ago
I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and briefly explain your opinions or plans That seems like a reasonable standard of native language proficiency to ask of people who want to make the county with said language their permanent home. [1] https://www.sprachenatelier-berlin.de/en/topic/3736.german-proficiency-levels.html https://www.sprachenatelier-berlin.de/en/topic/3736.german-p...
- TheOtherHobbes 3mo ago
  B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy. It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.
  - dgs_sgd 3mo ago
    Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.
    - parineum 3mo ago
      A country like the USA?
      - ryandrake 3mo ago
        Not really. There are many immigrant-majority communities in the USA where you can live most of your day-to-day without needing to speak much English.
        3mo ago
ManuelKiessling 3mo ago
If you cannot be bothered with learning our language, and think that being rich somehow makes our country owe you its citizenship — then yeah, maybe Germany isn’t for you.
- arianvanp 3mo ago
  Permanent Residency -- not citizenship. Residency is purely about taxes, health insurance and right to work. You e.g. don't get voting rights in national elections. EU citizens automatically get permanent residency in any EU country regardless of language. E.g. I'm a permanent resident in Germany as a Dutchie. (However I did end up picking up German and speak it now. But never had to do a language test)
  - pantalaimon 3mo ago
    > EU citizens automatically get permanent residency in any EU country regardless of language. Yea free movement and choice of residency is one of the main points of the EU
littlecranky67 3mo ago
As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway because it is international, you hardly practice it. Especially in the EU we are taught that we can move freely between nation states - but reality of learning a language takes years. I learned english at age 10, so am practicing for over 30 years now and still learning and anybody could spot that I am not a native speaker. Countries that rely on foreign labour and advertise agressively on skilled immigration (such as Germany does) should not have those strict language requirements. Especially since german itself is a very difficult language.
- delis-thumbs-7e 3mo ago
  None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice you can get there especially if you live in the country and force yourself to speak the language, but easy it is not.
  - aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
    > None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. I am very certain this is not true. The "just learn the language" people are typically rather people who are very talented in learning new languages (and often indeed to this as adults as a personal hobby - often even with languages from very different families), and thus are often not easy to convince that not everybody is as talented in language learning as they are. Believe me, I know this kind of people: I just want to quote some polyglot person who very casually said: "Being fluent in five languages is not something to be proud of - this is rather minimum standard." (she had the opinion that rather keeping fluent in 10 [!] languages is something that takes steady learning efforts to retain the obtained level in all of the 10 languages).
screye 3mo ago
B1 German is about 1 year of intensive studying from zero. With immersion and part-time commitment, I'd say ~3 years is a comfortable timeline to learn B1 German. I am basing this off my personal experience of going from A1 -> A2 -> half-way through B1 (I dropped after I decided against studying in Germany, but my classmates continued the course). Given that German companies are known for excellent work-life balance, there should be enough spare time to learn German by the 5 year point. All that being said, I imagine it's harder to learn a language when you have kids and family responsibilities.
rayiner 3mo ago
> Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? The country does seem much more insular than the Anglosphere.
- oblio 3mo ago
  > I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? A quick headcount says Mercedes, Adidas, Bayer,... https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives-at-german-dax-30-companies-are-migrants https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives... It pays off to do the actual research before passing judgment.
  - hollerith 3mo ago
    CEO of Mercedes was born in Sweden to Swedish parents; has blue eyes. CEO of Adidas has a Norwegian father and grew up in Norway; has pale skin, reddish-blonde hair and blue eyes. CEO of Bayer was born and raised in the US. Last name is "Anderson". Has pale skin and blue eyes. Two of them could pass as German (at least until they started talking): most Norwegians don't really look like Germans and the CEO of Adidas is no exception. Now let's do the top 5 companies in the US (by market cap). CEO of NVidia was born in Taiwan to Chinese parents and immigrated to the United States as a child. CEO of Google was born in India to Indian parents, came to the US after college. ditto CEO of Microsoft. CEOs of Apple and Amazon are a white men who grew up in the US.
    - rayiner 3mo ago
      Yeah, my wife speaks German and can easily understand Swedish (and probably Norwegian). There’s not a big cultural and linguistic for a Norwegian to come into a German company. It’s like an Australian coming into an American company.
shakow 3mo ago
Having B1 seems like a really lenient condition to get citizenship. I got B2 after 6 months of Erasmus, and I have B1 in Russian even though I never even stepped in the country. Have you even tried to learn German, and if so what is so hard that you can't even get B1, although you stayed long enough to have kids speaking natively the language?
jyounker 3mo ago
You're always going to be an outsider if you can't speak the language, no matter where you go in the world. B1 is a reasonable level, as it's the bare minimum for doing day-to-day tasks in the local language. I honestly can't image planning to live in any country for the long term without learning the local language to at least this level.
dudul 3mo ago
How do you live 6 years in a country without reaching B1?
- backwardsponcho 3mo ago
  You'd be surprised at the lengths some will go to avoid learning a new language. I've met people who have lived over 20y in a country while working, having and raising kids there and still can't have a half decent basic conversation in the local language. There is always an excuse: too much work, too little time, too tired or you name it, but the end result is that they are inconveniencing themselves. Not saying it is OP's case, just some anecdotal obserevations.
  - djaro 3mo ago
    The thing that makes this illogical to me is that once you reach basic fluency, you stop needing to study since you will now be automatically improving your language skills every time you hold a conversation, read a newspaper, watch a television program, etc. It's genuinely just the relatively small initial hurdle towards ~B1 that is a slog, but after that, you never have to actively study again if you don't want to.
    - betaby 3mo ago
      It doesn't feel like that for me. I reached professionally assessed B1 in French about 6 years ago and I don't feel I've reached B2 yet.
- sufficientsoup 3mo ago
  I think some people just get an irrational block about learning particular things. Like maybe you struggle with a music class in school and just identify as being incapable of learning an instrument, for example, even if they're a skilled learner otherwise. Can't speak for OP, obviously.
- fallingbananna 3mo ago
  You don't magically get language skills by living in the country. You still have to put in the time and effort. The utmost basics, A1, you could learn very quickly and those will get you through basic interactions (buying groceries, greeting neighbors, etc.) At work, doctors, apartment search etc. you can use English. For contracts you can use translate, since B1 wouldn't get you far there anyway. But to get to B1, you would have to make language learning your hobby for at least a year... and that is not for everyone. Especially given that there aren't interesting media to immerse yourself into in German, compared to other languages like Japanese or Korean. The only thing that I find puzzling is that OP didn't learn it, when they plan to stay in the country and obtain permanent residency. I would understand not learning the language if they planned to move out in 1 year.
newyankee 3mo ago
Well I am an Indian who lived in US and worked for top companies for 10 years and left back to my home country as I did not want to be beholden to the Green card waiting time or take some unethical pathways (I see a lot of abuse of O1 now). I find coworkers from smaller and friendlier countries sail through and become Americans. The point is that immigration can never really become a true meritocracy and even I recognised the privileges I had to reach to US in the first place. The country's ethos, ideas are grandfathered into the law alongwith numerous loopholes or sneaky ways. There is never a social compact where I did X , I deserve Y coming true. I suspect globally we are at the tail end of this type of immigration from Global South to Global North as well
BobbyTables2 3mo ago
What other country looks appealing? I get the whole “speak the native language” but seems like the appealing countries speak a language most of the world doesn’t care about. The number of countries with English as the main/official language that are desirable and open to immigrants seems really small.
- joaquincabezas 3mo ago
  what’s in the list?
- fallingbananna 3mo ago
  I was under the impression that English speaking countries are by far the most desirable for immigrants. Most people don't care that the current US, or UK governments are a mess, because grass isn't exactly greener back at home. And there are quite a few more English speaking countries that have their own issues, but don't get so much negative press online. (Ireland and Canada have housing crisis, but sound fine otherwise. Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand surely have their own issues that I don't know about)
  - graemep 3mo ago
    Ireland seems to be hostile to immigrants. Singapore is well run but not to everyone's taste. Are the others really any better than the UK?
m_dupont 3mo ago
I lived in Germany for seven years and by the end I was fluent. B1 is a very low bar to pass, I know because I've done it. Sorry to say, but the rule is fair. If you want to be a permanent resident, put in a little bit of effort to integrate into the country that you would like to call home.
- coderenegade 3mo ago
  This. German really isn't that difficult for an English speaker. And if someone really wants to make a home and build a life in a foreign country, why would they expect that they don't need to learn the native language? That seems stunningly entitled to me.
ggm 3mo ago
An observation from the side, is that this person already speaks 2 languages, and very probably more. They aren't dumb, I do question their logic, but the capacity to speak more than one tongue is in this person, witness their writing in English, and stating they come from an ASEAN background. That means at least one non-english language, and for many ASEAN economies, more than one. eg Chinese both Manderin and Cantonese, Indonesian and Chinese, some Chinese and Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese, these are combinations I have met at work here in Australia aside from "and english" I've had lifts from Uber drivers who speak 4 tongues fluently.
try-working 3mo ago
I am European, working in China for 12 years making multiples of the average salary, speak Chinese above B1 level and am not eligible for permanent residency yet. First of all, if you want to become a resident somewhere you must learn the language. Not should. Second, no country owes any foreign citizen residency there.
486sx33 3mo ago
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kshacker 3mo ago
> (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it .... sorry to nitpick on this, but the story did not expand on this despite the pronouncement that there is a reason. Maybe it was subtle, but then let it be subtle.
Izikiel43 3mo ago
> German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here. Well yeah, learning the local language is a requirement for a lot of countries on the path to citizenship.
throwaway2037 3mo ago
First, €200k gross annually is huge in Germany. You are high income! Do not read that as a (negative) judgement, but a lot of people on HN don't understand how much lower salaries are in central Europe compared to the US. Your situation makes me think of Japan. Starting about 10 years ago, they introduced a special "fast path" to permanent residence for high income people. I am surprised that it has not triggered more debate in Japanese society. I think the numbers are so small that most people (and politicians) don't really care. The goal was to attract high income people to work and live in Japan... and pay taxes! Germany could consider a similar programme. However, for normies, I am still strongly in favour of language requirements in any nation when applying for permanent residence. Last: > If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked! I don't understand. What does "play naked" mean?
- D_Alex 3mo ago
  It means have fun, be adventurous, bend the rules a little bit.
lotusw0w 3mo ago
Are you just using LLM to process your text or are you a LLM itself?
woodpanel 3mo ago
Honestly, that even highly educated people are complaining about a host country attaching bare minimums to handing out its citizenry (I.e. the right to vote, welfare) is all the more reason to attach them in the first place.
fleroviumna 3mo ago
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musha68k 3mo ago
I know life as an immigrant, especially while having kids and professional careers can be tough. That said, personally I'm thankful for Quebec having been the forcing function to learn French. With no prior formation to reach "intermédiaire avancé" took me about 20 months of studying on the side with one lesson per week for most of that time; usually before or during work hours (partially was a group setting there). I'm a German native speaker so I'm probably biased / ignorant about some major language hurdles but to me German must be the easier language to pick up for most as it's way more regular. I think the trick is to make a deliberate choice / opening up to love language and people, speaking with as many native speakers as possible etc. It also really helped me to almost exclusively switch to consuming French news and most of other media. I'm not a fan of dubbing in general but for learning, Hollywood movies in French have been mostly great same as with German translations. Maybe watch older movies, they used to put in an unreasonable amount of work into those especially. Computer games I'm personally still playing mostly in French to this day and I know that German translations are usually done with a lot of heart as well. Edit: do check out https://www.arte.tv/de/ https://www.arte.tv/de/ if you haven't - one of our favourites for both French and German of course; probably one of, if not the best TV worldwide. Always especially palpable after having been on youtube for a while too long; just the opposite of engagement bait, wholesome and good journalism and more.
ideasarecool 3mo ago
B1 in any language is a low standard. It being a major hurdle seems unlikely.
Etheryte 3mo ago
I don't have any skin in the game here for Germany specifically, but I would point out that B1 is an incredibly low bar to clear. With concentrated effort, you can reach that level in under a year, I know because I've done it. Given you have kids and are otherwise preoccupied, maybe a few years. At six years in, it's purely a matter of whether you yourself actually want it or not.
Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
It's the same in the Netherlands (needing a minimum language level), I suspect it's 25+ years of right-leaning, anti-migration governments; as a compromise they said "foreigners can stay as long as they integrate into our society", and language is a big factor there. Or that is the claim anyway. This doesn't apply to higher end jobs though, which are almost always international to begin with.
GlacierFox 3mo ago
"regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here." What's the issue here? Is it me or is it absurd for someone to permanently move to a country and expect to integrate without knowing how how to speak the language?
mytailorisrich 3mo ago
In fairness, speaking the language is a reasonable bare minimum to obtain permanent residence and certainly a must citizenship in any countries. AFAiK, in most European countries obtaining permanent residence requires at least 5 years of continued residence in the country so it is also a bad look in term of effort to integrate if a person still can't speak the language (maybe not perfectly but at least "good enough") after all that time.
caporaltito 3mo ago
My mate, learn German and be happy they don't ask for B2 or C1. If I move to China and want the nationality, it's absolutely normal that one expects me to speak Chinese. As an Ausländer (who reached C1), I am surprised that you are not talking about the other actual and terrible problems the german society is facing: an aging population relying on immigrants to fill in the gaps, taxes everywhere without the advantages of a strong social system, a very expensive health system but with doctors almost prescribing you tea to fight cancer, crippling solitude inherent to the german culture which even spreads to immigrants -more than half of Berlin lives alone-, a housing market held by boomers and huge corporations (literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country) which leaves you to rent your whole life to shelter your family, a pro-russia, pro-Afd east Germany vastly undevelopped and uneducated compared to the west. And also food, love, conversations. Germany often feels like the bad sides of northern Europe have been mixed with the bad sides of southern Europe. And then the glass ceiling does not come at B1, but when you start to notice the difference in behaviour the Germans make between C1 and C2. If you want to pursue your whole career in this country, given how strong the german identity is, you will have to know every single subtlties of the language and culture if you are willing to compete for the next step in your career, for instance a management position. Really, this country has been in a bad shape for at least five years now. Germany lived until now on its bounce after the reunification, the money poured by the Americans after the war and cheap russian gas. Now it feels like the bill other european countries always had to pay in the last decades has been finally handed to Germany.
- eunos 3mo ago
  > literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country There are some below 100k but it's in Marxloh. In Berlin, there are still some below 250k in the outskirt
- watwut 3mo ago
  > without the advantages of a strong social system Wut? Germany is socialism personified.
  - caporaltito 3mo ago
fnands 3mo ago
You can also take a Bildungsurlaub (educational leave, 5 days a year or 10 days every two years) and take a German course. For a two week course with private tutoring it's like 1k, which at your income level is not much. A lot of bureaucracy in Germany becomes a lot easier once you get over the B1 hump.
avadodin 3mo ago
Germany is only another economic–region–state under the EU. How dare they require you speak the local savages' hard language after you've already been working for a multinational corporation for six years.
jcarrano 3mo ago
> life is short—play naked! Such a concise way of saying what I've been thinking for a long time.
eunos 3mo ago
I thought if you have a blue card A1 is suffice?
tsss 3mo ago
It's a good thing you can't get permanent residency, let alone citizenship! without speaking the local language. There are few countries in the world that hand out citizenship as cheaply as Germany.
NoLinkToMe 3mo ago
Could you also add your thoughts on whether you think a B1 level is a sensible requirement for permanent residence in any country? Because that's what the post seems to boil down to, but you haven't opined on it (other than refusing to learn B1, which implies the answer somewhat). B1 by the way is considered doable for a consistent parttime learner in 9 months, and 1-2 years for someone doing weekend studying. That's an average. For a studious family with higher educational background making 200k a year (this is significantly above average in Germany), you've got both the IQ and the capital for tutoring to do better than average. Seems like a sensible, useful, necessary and practical bar to set for permanent residence, to me.
cainxinth 3mo ago
> I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. That is true of every country.
guenthert 3mo ago
> suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Are you sure you're not reading too much into that? I've witnessed plenty of times (in the USA) that agreements of a meeting were later 'forgotten' (no doubt often indeed due to poor memory). To the point that it was best to insist on a written record of a meeting.
guenthert 3mo ago
> We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. That's bizarre. In Germany about half the population rents their primary dwelling; many life-long. There's really no rush to buy real estate here. (not that anybody would fully understand the tax rules)
- guenthert 3mo ago
  [too late to edit] I do realize that it might be more challenging to rent as a foreigner, particularly if you don't speak German well.
juliusceasar 3mo ago
"So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here." You should look the other way around. The country is contributing to YOU. You are profitting from Germany.

svara 3mo ago

Genuinely happy to hear you're successful here! But, why would you expect there to be no drawback to not knowing the local language when moving to a foreign country?

ikut3hva 3mo ago
Definitely, I had a good awareness of the language barrier from the day I arrived. To be fair, I have continued learning German—not because I want to pass the B1 examination and obtain permanent residence, but because I feel my children need to be protected and guided, and I want to teach them the same things they learn at school. Every moment I spend learning the language is a moment I invest out of love, so that I can be a better and more supportive parent.
- jitix 3mo ago
  Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step. From what I found (and as another commenter pointed out) the bar is not even that high. Edit: For context I am not a right winger and am an immigrant myself. But I am seeing the social fabric of my host country (Canada) degrade because of immigrants' refusal to assimilate.
  - romanhounds 3mo ago
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  - blks 3mo ago
    Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that country as needed.

lispisok 3mo ago

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

brewdad 3mo ago
Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society. Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.
- angott 3mo ago
  > Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of. Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.
  - pimterry 3mo ago
    One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.
    - volkl48 3mo ago
      Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).

pimeys 3mo ago

Hey. I'm with you there. My German also kind of sucks, but I've had a very successful 15 years in Berlin. The best part is how easy it is to pick jobs from the neighboring countries, like France. You pay taxes here, you commute maybe once a month to Paris and enjoy the prices and quietness of Berlin. We are lucky with my partner, and bought finally our own apartment. My partner, an American, is fluent with the language so it helps. My plan is to make a good amount of savings, take a year or so of sabbatical and finally learn the language. Until that, we go with bar Deutsch.

ikut3hva 3mo ago
Thank you! I skimmed through your text, and for a moment I thought we were working at the same company with its HQ in Paris, haha. Honestly, you brought up a valuable point that I didn’t cover in my original comment. Living in Germany has been one of the best ways to strengthen our relationship, especially when one of us couldn’t speak German and the other stepped in to help. Some people may see this as a fragile vulnerabilitye, but I see it as part of our growth.
- pimeys 3mo ago
  For me it's only about getting into the local scene more now, to learn the language. I kind of started to finally understand the German inefficiency, the distributed nature of the country and their culture. Now when we bought our apartment, the need to be part of the culture is bigger than ever. And at the same time I'm so busy for the past 10 years already, there's more work than ever in my life. Just need to say stop one day, take a year off and go to language school. P.S. I don't think it's the same company: the other devs are either in Paris or in Scandinavia.

kombine 3mo ago

My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.

sigmoid10 3mo ago
I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are sure you will leave again after that stint, but the above commenter doesn't seem to fall into this category either.
- RugnirViking 3mo ago
  To be fair, B1 and especially B2 are not trivial requirements. A1 you will "pick up" like you say, but it's easy to fall into a trap of remaining around A2 without sustained effortful studying. (If you try to do it through just interacting with natives with no structure it's common to fossilize mistakes which take much longer to fix, or even just become permanent) Personally I've gotten to B2 (not Germany) which is enough for most purposes, but it would have been very possible to get stuck in a rut. It's very common for couples that move here for one to have a job, and the other to spend some months unemployed looking for a job. It's generally observed that those that have the job learn the job much slower and get stuck, and the ones that spend time at home and looking have much better outcomes longer term
  - sigmoid10 3mo ago
    B1 to B2 is a big step. Bigger than A1-2 to B1. B1 is basically just understanding people who speak slowly and clearly and being able to participate in everyday life situations. So a very gradual progression. B2 is already being able to do professional work in that language. This is what will take considerable time and active study. But it is also not a requirement for naturalisation in most countries. And many natural born citizens also never reach C1-2 level of proficiency either. So if you're B2, you may as well be counted as fully integrated.

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NorthSouthNorth 3mo ago

You can get B1 with a bit of spare time. With kids, I understand it's a different situation; however, it took me about 2 years to get there, learning in my spare spare time (which after a certain point was just listening to audio books before bed). The compounding effect works. BUUUUT, even with B2, it's just not enough for avoiding "the look", as you put it. I think you need flawless C1 or something, idk. Don't care anymore lol.

merb 3mo ago
Most b2 holders can’t even speak German. B1 is not that much better nowadays. You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these and as a small company with only DACH customers it’s most often not worth it
- quadrifoliate 3mo ago
  > You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these Any specific examples? I'm a bit surprised because I thought that the German certifications were quite standardized. So I would expect B1 certified people to be able to speak in everyday situations.
  - wink 3mo ago
    Not the person you replied to but they mentioned DACH + customers. As someone from Bavaria... I have several stories of coworkers who speak and understand decent German but put them on a phone or a in a room with people who speak in a thick German dialect and they will understand 10%. Functionally useless.
  - merb 3mo ago
    > Any specific examples? well how should I do that? Basically all application data is basically protected data and needs to be deleted pretty fast. I'm not sure if the certificates are even real in some cases. Some applications also look extremly similar, besides that they have a distance between the two applicatiants of over 200 km.

yorwba 3mo ago

FWIW, for Blue Card holders, after 27 months the language requirement drops to A1 and even if you don't have a Blue Card after five years you could also get an EU permanent residence without language requirement: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-permanently/settlement-permit https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-... Though I would recommend setting yourself a target of some small (≈10) number of new words to learn every day and practice them during your commute or so. B1 is achievable in under a year with consistent practice. The official word list has 2400 entries: https://www.goethe.de/pro/relaunch/prf/de/Goethe-Zertifikat_B1_Wortliste.pdf https://www.goethe.de/pro/relaunch/prf/de/Goethe-Zertifikat_...

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0zer0 3mo ago
This. With this much income you should qualify for a Blue Card. The 27 months start when you are eligible, not when you are actually holding the Blue Card. A friend of mine (w/ Blue Card) got permanent citizenship in Germany after the 3 years and was not asked/tested for any language skills. As long as you speak a little German to follow the process it is pretty easy.
quite-sfwd 3mo ago
Learning 10 words a day is not a small amount. Unless you count conjugations.

eldaisfish 3mo ago

There is yet another angle that people don't like to discuss because it is uncomfortable. Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. This makes it nigh on impossible to integrate fully in these countries. The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same. In the german case, take the words of Messut Ozil, the former footballer - when the German team wins, he is German. Lose, and he is the immigrant. He is ethnically Turkish, i.e. not ethnically German. The same will apply to your kids as well. I want to be clear, not every German person is a frothing racist, i would argue that the racists are a minority. It is, however, important to note that the reactions of the individual and the reactions of society can be different, sometimes polar opposites. In sharp contrast to this are the US and Canada, where there is no shared definition of "white" even though the majority of their populations are ethnically European. In that case, "European" spans everything from Irish and Greek, to French and Austrian. Less than a hundred years back, Irish people were not seen as white. Today, that idea is laughable. The fundamental difference between the US and Canada on one side and German or european society on the other is that the old world is built around exclusion, while the new world is built around inclusion. This is one important reason why skilled immigrants leave europe, and is also why i left.

dizhn 3mo ago
Mesut Özil was himself very German until he retired and saw the potential in cozying up to Erdoğan. Now he's a nationalist.
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bcye 3mo ago
> Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. What do you mean by it being the bedrock of society? I haven't found ethnicity to be an important part about being a citizen here at all.
- kuschku 3mo ago
  > A nation state, or nation-state, is a political entity in which the state (a centralized political organization ruling over a population within a territory) and the nation (a community based on a common identity) are congruent. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state The traditional view taught in history books is as follows: > Before the french revolution, states extended as far as their kings' military power allowed them to, and the king derived his claim to power from god. > After the french revolution, states formed around the concept of a common shared ethnicity, language, and culture (nation), with the claim to power deriving from the people. > This shared national identity was instrumental to the unification of many separate kingdoms into the German confederation. EDIT: That view is not necessarily correct (see the comments below), but it is what most people will have learnt in school

dgs_sgd 3mo ago

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and briefly explain your opinions or plans That seems like a reasonable standard of native language proficiency to ask of people who want to make the county with said language their permanent home. [1] https://www.sprachenatelier-berlin.de/en/topic/3736.german-proficiency-levels.html https://www.sprachenatelier-berlin.de/en/topic/3736.german-p...

TheOtherHobbes 3mo ago
B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy. It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.
- dgs_sgd 3mo ago
  Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.
  - parineum 3mo ago
    A country like the USA?
    - ryandrake 3mo ago
      Not really. There are many immigrant-majority communities in the USA where you can live most of your day-to-day without needing to speak much English.
      - 3mo ago

ManuelKiessling 3mo ago

If you cannot be bothered with learning our language, and think that being rich somehow makes our country owe you its citizenship — then yeah, maybe Germany isn’t for you.

arianvanp 3mo ago
Permanent Residency -- not citizenship. Residency is purely about taxes, health insurance and right to work. You e.g. don't get voting rights in national elections. EU citizens automatically get permanent residency in any EU country regardless of language. E.g. I'm a permanent resident in Germany as a Dutchie. (However I did end up picking up German and speak it now. But never had to do a language test)
- pantalaimon 3mo ago
  > EU citizens automatically get permanent residency in any EU country regardless of language. Yea free movement and choice of residency is one of the main points of the EU

littlecranky67 3mo ago

As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway because it is international, you hardly practice it. Especially in the EU we are taught that we can move freely between nation states - but reality of learning a language takes years. I learned english at age 10, so am practicing for over 30 years now and still learning and anybody could spot that I am not a native speaker. Countries that rely on foreign labour and advertise agressively on skilled immigration (such as Germany does) should not have those strict language requirements. Especially since german itself is a very difficult language.

delis-thumbs-7e 3mo ago
None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice you can get there especially if you live in the country and force yourself to speak the language, but easy it is not.
- aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
  > None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. I am very certain this is not true. The "just learn the language" people are typically rather people who are very talented in learning new languages (and often indeed to this as adults as a personal hobby - often even with languages from very different families), and thus are often not easy to convince that not everybody is as talented in language learning as they are. Believe me, I know this kind of people: I just want to quote some polyglot person who very casually said: "Being fluent in five languages is not something to be proud of - this is rather minimum standard." (she had the opinion that rather keeping fluent in 10 [!] languages is something that takes steady learning efforts to retain the obtained level in all of the 10 languages).

screye 3mo ago

B1 German is about 1 year of intensive studying from zero. With immersion and part-time commitment, I'd say ~3 years is a comfortable timeline to learn B1 German. I am basing this off my personal experience of going from A1 -> A2 -> half-way through B1 (I dropped after I decided against studying in Germany, but my classmates continued the course). Given that German companies are known for excellent work-life balance, there should be enough spare time to learn German by the 5 year point. All that being said, I imagine it's harder to learn a language when you have kids and family responsibilities.

rayiner 3mo ago

> Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? The country does seem much more insular than the Anglosphere.

oblio 3mo ago
> I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? A quick headcount says Mercedes, Adidas, Bayer,... https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives-at-german-dax-30-companies-are-migrants https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives... It pays off to do the actual research before passing judgment.
- hollerith 3mo ago
  CEO of Mercedes was born in Sweden to Swedish parents; has blue eyes. CEO of Adidas has a Norwegian father and grew up in Norway; has pale skin, reddish-blonde hair and blue eyes. CEO of Bayer was born and raised in the US. Last name is "Anderson". Has pale skin and blue eyes. Two of them could pass as German (at least until they started talking): most Norwegians don't really look like Germans and the CEO of Adidas is no exception. Now let's do the top 5 companies in the US (by market cap). CEO of NVidia was born in Taiwan to Chinese parents and immigrated to the United States as a child. CEO of Google was born in India to Indian parents, came to the US after college. ditto CEO of Microsoft. CEOs of Apple and Amazon are a white men who grew up in the US.
  - rayiner 3mo ago
    Yeah, my wife speaks German and can easily understand Swedish (and probably Norwegian). There’s not a big cultural and linguistic for a Norwegian to come into a German company. It’s like an Australian coming into an American company.

shakow 3mo ago

Having B1 seems like a really lenient condition to get citizenship. I got B2 after 6 months of Erasmus, and I have B1 in Russian even though I never even stepped in the country. Have you even tried to learn German, and if so what is so hard that you can't even get B1, although you stayed long enough to have kids speaking natively the language?

jyounker 3mo ago

You're always going to be an outsider if you can't speak the language, no matter where you go in the world. B1 is a reasonable level, as it's the bare minimum for doing day-to-day tasks in the local language. I honestly can't image planning to live in any country for the long term without learning the local language to at least this level.

dudul 3mo ago

How do you live 6 years in a country without reaching B1?

backwardsponcho 3mo ago
You'd be surprised at the lengths some will go to avoid learning a new language. I've met people who have lived over 20y in a country while working, having and raising kids there and still can't have a half decent basic conversation in the local language. There is always an excuse: too much work, too little time, too tired or you name it, but the end result is that they are inconveniencing themselves. Not saying it is OP's case, just some anecdotal obserevations.
- djaro 3mo ago
  The thing that makes this illogical to me is that once you reach basic fluency, you stop needing to study since you will now be automatically improving your language skills every time you hold a conversation, read a newspaper, watch a television program, etc. It's genuinely just the relatively small initial hurdle towards ~B1 that is a slog, but after that, you never have to actively study again if you don't want to.
  - betaby 3mo ago
    It doesn't feel like that for me. I reached professionally assessed B1 in French about 6 years ago and I don't feel I've reached B2 yet.
sufficientsoup 3mo ago
I think some people just get an irrational block about learning particular things. Like maybe you struggle with a music class in school and just identify as being incapable of learning an instrument, for example, even if they're a skilled learner otherwise. Can't speak for OP, obviously.
fallingbananna 3mo ago
You don't magically get language skills by living in the country. You still have to put in the time and effort. The utmost basics, A1, you could learn very quickly and those will get you through basic interactions (buying groceries, greeting neighbors, etc.) At work, doctors, apartment search etc. you can use English. For contracts you can use translate, since B1 wouldn't get you far there anyway. But to get to B1, you would have to make language learning your hobby for at least a year... and that is not for everyone. Especially given that there aren't interesting media to immerse yourself into in German, compared to other languages like Japanese or Korean. The only thing that I find puzzling is that OP didn't learn it, when they plan to stay in the country and obtain permanent residency. I would understand not learning the language if they planned to move out in 1 year.

newyankee 3mo ago

Well I am an Indian who lived in US and worked for top companies for 10 years and left back to my home country as I did not want to be beholden to the Green card waiting time or take some unethical pathways (I see a lot of abuse of O1 now). I find coworkers from smaller and friendlier countries sail through and become Americans. The point is that immigration can never really become a true meritocracy and even I recognised the privileges I had to reach to US in the first place. The country's ethos, ideas are grandfathered into the law alongwith numerous loopholes or sneaky ways. There is never a social compact where I did X , I deserve Y coming true. I suspect globally we are at the tail end of this type of immigration from Global South to Global North as well

BobbyTables2 3mo ago

What other country looks appealing? I get the whole “speak the native language” but seems like the appealing countries speak a language most of the world doesn’t care about. The number of countries with English as the main/official language that are desirable and open to immigrants seems really small.

joaquincabezas 3mo ago
what’s in the list?
fallingbananna 3mo ago
I was under the impression that English speaking countries are by far the most desirable for immigrants. Most people don't care that the current US, or UK governments are a mess, because grass isn't exactly greener back at home. And there are quite a few more English speaking countries that have their own issues, but don't get so much negative press online. (Ireland and Canada have housing crisis, but sound fine otherwise. Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand surely have their own issues that I don't know about)
- graemep 3mo ago
  Ireland seems to be hostile to immigrants. Singapore is well run but not to everyone's taste. Are the others really any better than the UK?

m_dupont 3mo ago

I lived in Germany for seven years and by the end I was fluent. B1 is a very low bar to pass, I know because I've done it. Sorry to say, but the rule is fair. If you want to be a permanent resident, put in a little bit of effort to integrate into the country that you would like to call home.

coderenegade 3mo ago
This. German really isn't that difficult for an English speaker. And if someone really wants to make a home and build a life in a foreign country, why would they expect that they don't need to learn the native language? That seems stunningly entitled to me.

ggm 3mo ago

An observation from the side, is that this person already speaks 2 languages, and very probably more. They aren't dumb, I do question their logic, but the capacity to speak more than one tongue is in this person, witness their writing in English, and stating they come from an ASEAN background. That means at least one non-english language, and for many ASEAN economies, more than one. eg Chinese both Manderin and Cantonese, Indonesian and Chinese, some Chinese and Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese, these are combinations I have met at work here in Australia aside from "and english" I've had lifts from Uber drivers who speak 4 tongues fluently.

try-working 3mo ago

I am European, working in China for 12 years making multiples of the average salary, speak Chinese above B1 level and am not eligible for permanent residency yet. First of all, if you want to become a resident somewhere you must learn the language. Not should. Second, no country owes any foreign citizen residency there.

486sx33 3mo ago

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kshacker 3mo ago

> (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it .... sorry to nitpick on this, but the story did not expand on this despite the pronouncement that there is a reason. Maybe it was subtle, but then let it be subtle.

Izikiel43 3mo ago

> German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here. Well yeah, learning the local language is a requirement for a lot of countries on the path to citizenship.

throwaway2037 3mo ago

First, €200k gross annually is huge in Germany. You are high income! Do not read that as a (negative) judgement, but a lot of people on HN don't understand how much lower salaries are in central Europe compared to the US. Your situation makes me think of Japan. Starting about 10 years ago, they introduced a special "fast path" to permanent residence for high income people. I am surprised that it has not triggered more debate in Japanese society. I think the numbers are so small that most people (and politicians) don't really care. The goal was to attract high income people to work and live in Japan... and pay taxes! Germany could consider a similar programme. However, for normies, I am still strongly in favour of language requirements in any nation when applying for permanent residence. Last: > If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked! I don't understand. What does "play naked" mean?

D_Alex 3mo ago
It means have fun, be adventurous, bend the rules a little bit.

lotusw0w 3mo ago

Are you just using LLM to process your text or are you a LLM itself?

woodpanel 3mo ago

Honestly, that even highly educated people are complaining about a host country attaching bare minimums to handing out its citizenry (I.e. the right to vote, welfare) is all the more reason to attach them in the first place.

fleroviumna 3mo ago

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musha68k 3mo ago

I know life as an immigrant, especially while having kids and professional careers can be tough. That said, personally I'm thankful for Quebec having been the forcing function to learn French. With no prior formation to reach "intermédiaire avancé" took me about 20 months of studying on the side with one lesson per week for most of that time; usually before or during work hours (partially was a group setting there). I'm a German native speaker so I'm probably biased / ignorant about some major language hurdles but to me German must be the easier language to pick up for most as it's way more regular. I think the trick is to make a deliberate choice / opening up to love language and people, speaking with as many native speakers as possible etc. It also really helped me to almost exclusively switch to consuming French news and most of other media. I'm not a fan of dubbing in general but for learning, Hollywood movies in French have been mostly great same as with German translations. Maybe watch older movies, they used to put in an unreasonable amount of work into those especially. Computer games I'm personally still playing mostly in French to this day and I know that German translations are usually done with a lot of heart as well. Edit: do check out https://www.arte.tv/de/ https://www.arte.tv/de/ if you haven't - one of our favourites for both French and German of course; probably one of, if not the best TV worldwide. Always especially palpable after having been on youtube for a while too long; just the opposite of engagement bait, wholesome and good journalism and more.

ideasarecool 3mo ago

B1 in any language is a low standard. It being a major hurdle seems unlikely.

Etheryte 3mo ago

I don't have any skin in the game here for Germany specifically, but I would point out that B1 is an incredibly low bar to clear. With concentrated effort, you can reach that level in under a year, I know because I've done it. Given you have kids and are otherwise preoccupied, maybe a few years. At six years in, it's purely a matter of whether you yourself actually want it or not.

Cthulhu_ 3mo ago

It's the same in the Netherlands (needing a minimum language level), I suspect it's 25+ years of right-leaning, anti-migration governments; as a compromise they said "foreigners can stay as long as they integrate into our society", and language is a big factor there. Or that is the claim anyway. This doesn't apply to higher end jobs though, which are almost always international to begin with.

GlacierFox 3mo ago

"regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here." What's the issue here? Is it me or is it absurd for someone to permanently move to a country and expect to integrate without knowing how how to speak the language?

mytailorisrich 3mo ago

In fairness, speaking the language is a reasonable bare minimum to obtain permanent residence and certainly a must citizenship in any countries. AFAiK, in most European countries obtaining permanent residence requires at least 5 years of continued residence in the country so it is also a bad look in term of effort to integrate if a person still can't speak the language (maybe not perfectly but at least "good enough") after all that time.

caporaltito 3mo ago

My mate, learn German and be happy they don't ask for B2 or C1. If I move to China and want the nationality, it's absolutely normal that one expects me to speak Chinese. As an Ausländer (who reached C1), I am surprised that you are not talking about the other actual and terrible problems the german society is facing: an aging population relying on immigrants to fill in the gaps, taxes everywhere without the advantages of a strong social system, a very expensive health system but with doctors almost prescribing you tea to fight cancer, crippling solitude inherent to the german culture which even spreads to immigrants -more than half of Berlin lives alone-, a housing market held by boomers and huge corporations (literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country) which leaves you to rent your whole life to shelter your family, a pro-russia, pro-Afd east Germany vastly undevelopped and uneducated compared to the west. And also food, love, conversations. Germany often feels like the bad sides of northern Europe have been mixed with the bad sides of southern Europe. And then the glass ceiling does not come at B1, but when you start to notice the difference in behaviour the Germans make between C1 and C2. If you want to pursue your whole career in this country, given how strong the german identity is, you will have to know every single subtlties of the language and culture if you are willing to compete for the next step in your career, for instance a management position. Really, this country has been in a bad shape for at least five years now. Germany lived until now on its bounce after the reunification, the money poured by the Americans after the war and cheap russian gas. Now it feels like the bill other european countries always had to pay in the last decades has been finally handed to Germany.

eunos 3mo ago
> literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country There are some below 100k but it's in Marxloh. In Berlin, there are still some below 250k in the outskirt
watwut 3mo ago
> without the advantages of a strong social system Wut? Germany is socialism personified.
- caporaltito 3mo ago

fnands 3mo ago

You can also take a Bildungsurlaub (educational leave, 5 days a year or 10 days every two years) and take a German course. For a two week course with private tutoring it's like 1k, which at your income level is not much. A lot of bureaucracy in Germany becomes a lot easier once you get over the B1 hump.

avadodin 3mo ago

Germany is only another economic–region–state under the EU. How dare they require you speak the local savages' hard language after you've already been working for a multinational corporation for six years.

jcarrano 3mo ago

> life is short—play naked! Such a concise way of saying what I've been thinking for a long time.

eunos 3mo ago

I thought if you have a blue card A1 is suffice?

tsss 3mo ago

It's a good thing you can't get permanent residency, let alone citizenship! without speaking the local language. There are few countries in the world that hand out citizenship as cheaply as Germany.

NoLinkToMe 3mo ago

Could you also add your thoughts on whether you think a B1 level is a sensible requirement for permanent residence in any country? Because that's what the post seems to boil down to, but you haven't opined on it (other than refusing to learn B1, which implies the answer somewhat). B1 by the way is considered doable for a consistent parttime learner in 9 months, and 1-2 years for someone doing weekend studying. That's an average. For a studious family with higher educational background making 200k a year (this is significantly above average in Germany), you've got both the IQ and the capital for tutoring to do better than average. Seems like a sensible, useful, necessary and practical bar to set for permanent residence, to me.

cainxinth 3mo ago

> I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. That is true of every country.

guenthert 3mo ago

> suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Are you sure you're not reading too much into that? I've witnessed plenty of times (in the USA) that agreements of a meeting were later 'forgotten' (no doubt often indeed due to poor memory). To the point that it was best to insist on a written record of a meeting.

guenthert 3mo ago

> We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. That's bizarre. In Germany about half the population rents their primary dwelling; many life-long. There's really no rush to buy real estate here. (not that anybody would fully understand the tax rules)

guenthert 3mo ago
[too late to edit] I do realize that it might be more challenging to rent as a foreigner, particularly if you don't speak German well.

juliusceasar 3mo ago

"So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here." You should look the other way around. The country is contributing to YOU. You are profitting from Germany.