9 ms·

I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

186 points by speckx 5mo ago

kgwxd 5mo ago
I have a bin full of pristine keyboards that never see the light of day because of Fn, arrows, Home, and/or End placement. I used to work on 3 different laptops, so I kind of got used to thinking about every stroke using those keys, but I never want to go back there, it's so mentally taxing.
- zf00002 5mo ago
  I find the "wrong" FN keyboards annoying like OP, but the Home/End to Pgup/Dn grouping of keys is what really makes or breaks a great keyboard layout for me.
swyx 5mo ago
> I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys (danq.me) > 11 points by speckx 13 minutes ago | flag | hide | 1 comment this is currently #1 on HN gaining 11 points in 13 mins. never seen this before.
- kgwxd 5mo ago
  I'm pretty sure I'm the first that upvoted it, when it was #2 on the "new" page, like 3 minutes ago. I was very surprised to see it here when I went back to the main page. I'm sure the topic hits a lot of nerves :)
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
chrisandchris 5mo ago
Some models do have physical switches on the back witj which you can enable / disable this behaviour. One of the many cases where physical buttons/switches are superior to software-only options.
- shit_game 5mo ago
  Only tangentially related, but I've found myself down a rabbit hole with some ancient BigKeys keyboards (designed/manufactured by Greystone Digital), and a small handful of them have a physical switch on their underside that switches them between QWERTY and ASDF layout; it's genuinely perplexing because the code theyre running on the boards is not at all standard PS/2 or USB (save a few later revisions/models). There is a DFK48 V1.2 (mfg 1994) that I have been fighting with for some time now, and it angers me to no end. The lengths that peripheral manufacturers will go to to create "functionality" is wild, having looked at hardware like this for the first time. Granted, I'm working with what is widely considered an accessibility HID, the fact that "stickey keys" (as theyre known in Windows) is a default function of this keyboard, which breaks all common passive PS/2 -> USB adapters due to encoding differences, significantly fucks up my workflow in using it with modern hardware by using unique encodings AFAICT. It's a wonderful puzzle, but an annoyance for someone trying to accomplish anything. I'm confident this shit could be oneshot with LLMs, but that's not the point of the work, in case anyone was considering chiming in about them. Part of me needs to realize that this was made 30+ years ago, before we knew what we now know. But another part of me feels intense animosity for such early, unabashed, and shameless abandon in regards to HID standards/protocols. Using what is effectively Stickey Keys by default and breaking PS/2 -> USB adaptability because of that is annoying as hell, even if the thing is $50 on ebay.
croisillon 5mo ago
constantly lowering my luminosity instead of refreshing my page :(
mmsc 5mo ago
A missed opportunity to say you 'Fn' hate the Fn key :)
- kijin 5mo ago
  Thanks for the idea! Now I'm going to mash the Fn key whenever I feel the urge to strongly emphasize something but can't actually type it out because, well, it would be Fn NSFW.
  - chuckadams 5mo ago
    On a mac that will pop up the emoji keyboard, allowing you to further express your feelings in ways that won't render on HN :)
CarVac 5mo ago
Speaking of "natural scrolling" it is horrible because most scrolling is downward and "natural" is an ergonomically inferior pushing action instead of pulling. It's only natural on the actual display itself. Anothe affront to nature by Apple, along with killing the headphone jack.
- p-e-w 5mo ago
  Reasonable-sounding arguments always come up in these debates, but in reality it all comes down to what you’re used to. Disabling natural scrolling used to be the first thing I did on a new system. Until I once was too lazy to do it, got used to it, and now I can’t imagine ever going back.
  - mikepurvis 5mo ago
    So I was a Mac user for years and accepted and adapted to natural scrolling after it appeared as the default in 2011. When I switched back to a Windows laptop for work around 2018, I kept it on natural mode. But then two years ago I got a desktop computer with an external mouse again and.... natural scrolling doesn't work for me on a physical wheel. With a trackpad, the metaphor is direct, that the page or document is being moved by the motion of your fingers; but with a wheel, I still want to pull it toward me to scroll down, because that feels like rolling the little wheel along the document, or turning it to advance the document beneath, like a printer finishing a page. Maybe that's all silly, but for me it's natural scrolling on trackpads and conventional scrolling on mice with scrollwheels.
    - mjmas 5mo ago
      > Maybe that's all silly No it isn't. Both examples match perfectly physically: - Touchpad is like dragging the piece of paper directly. - Scroll wheel is like having the paper on the other side of the wheel.
    - ziml77 5mo ago
      That's the sane handling of scrolling. macOS is weird for tying the scrolling direction of trackpads and mouse wheels in a single setting.
tom1337890 5mo ago
I totally agree and I feel you.
piekvorst 5mo ago
Instead of using a single menu bar icon “volume control,” I have transferred the lessons of the keyboard to the GUI and placed two buttons in my menu bar: volume down and volume up. I have been using them all the time for about half a year now. The benefits of this approach, to my knowledge and estimation, include: no waiting for a slider to appear; no nested actions; no need to read the current value; each click does not depend on the current state; Fitts’ Law muscle memory boost (the buttons are effectively infinite-height targets); discoverability compared to scrollwheelable icons.
- skirmish 5mo ago
  What works well for me is a taskbar icon with mouse scrolling (Waybar pulseaudio module on Sway). You see 50% and a speaker icon, hover and scroll up or down to instantly change.
  - account42 5mo ago
    I prefer having keyboard shortcuts and NOT seeing the numeric volume level at all because otherwise I will have to set the volume to a multiple of 5 or 2 even if the optimal setting is another number. You could also do this with scrolling but for something where you might want immediate changes its good to have keys or key combinations that reliably work everywhere (even with fullscreen applications) instead of having to position the cursor over a small icon.
    - piekvorst 5mo ago
      The icon is traditionally small indeed, but it shouldn’t be. I use the strings “vol-“ and “vol+” as icons, which makes the whole thing 8 characters long. As a universal law, optimizing the fullscreen experience is a suboptimal goal. Generally, the best solutions are the ones that operate at the appropriate level, and if we optimize the fullscreen experience, then most solutions built for the right level are inaccessible to us.
jraph 5mo ago
The HP Elitebook laptops get this right. You can configure whether you prefer the standard behavior or to use the actions assigned to the F keys by default, I think in the BIOS, and then you can use fn lock to switch at runtime. That's nice in itself but that's not all. In the latter mode, holding a modifier key like Alt makes the F key act standard, so Alt+F4 works in any mode as expected.
__s 5mo ago
I've switched to programmable ergo keyboards where there's a whole slew of options (https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods just covers home row mods) I've always hated stateful control. Always ripped out caps lock key from my boards (or later figured out remapping), same for insert mode That's carried over, even with options like one shot mods, & cutting down to under 40 keys (& playing with 28, yesterday received a https://github.com/kilipan/zilpzalp https://github.com/kilipan/zilpzalp), I still don't find stateful control necessary. More layers, combos, & tap-hold go far
- xedrac 5mo ago
  You sound like you would prefer Emacs over Vim.
  - packetlost 5mo ago
    I mostly agree with GP on stateful controls, but emacs has never clicked for me like vim did. Perhaps it's because switching between modes feels more natural than a simple toggle.
    - allarm 5mo ago
      I have the same feeling and I use evil-mode in Emacs because of that. It's basically Vim inside of Emacs.
      - packetlost 5mo ago
        I tried evil-mode for awhile, but it had too many edge cases that behave differently so I went back /shrug
        hirvi74 5mo ago
        I have my instance set up to enable/disable evil via a keybinding. That way, the edge cases can be handled smoothly. There is also a way to configure evil so that emacs keybindings work while in Insert mode, but not in Normal or Visual mode, if that matters at all.
kanemcgrath 5mo ago
One of my favorite things about my custom mechanical keyboard, is being able to remap the entire key set in the firmware with VIA. I have fn+arrow keys for media, fn+space for play/pause fn+end for calculator, and a bunch of random others. It is so useful I could never get another keyboard that doesn’t have a similar functionality.
- TacticalCoder 5mo ago
  > It is so useful I could never get another keyboard that doesn’t have a similar functionality. I do it at the software level (Linux / Xorg): complete remapping, with an "hyper" key modifier etc. The reason I do it at the software level is that you can pry my Topre switches from my cold dead hands and the HHKB Pro JP I'm using doesn't have, by default, a programmable controller. Now I know some people mod their Topre keyboards to add a programmable controller but I never got to that point. Doing so in hardware using .xkb files is... Something. I know way more about .xkb files than I should but, thankfully, so far I've just been able to brink my .xkb file to every new Linux version (supporting Xorg, I'm not on Wayland). I take at some point I'll look more into how to mod my HHKB keyboards with programmable controller.
  - jaywcarman 5mo ago
    I put a Hasu controller[1] in my Leopold F660C (Topre switches) and couldn't be happier. Though it voids the warranty, installation was very easy and it allows total control of the keymap via TMK. Looks like there are similar controllers by Hasu for HHKB[2]. If you can manage to order one I highly recommend it! [1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88720.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88720.0 [2]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71517.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71517.0
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
pknomad 5mo ago
> It was nice that they gave dedicated keys to volume control/toggling muting. I know it's not an option for certain keyboards (and laptop keyboards) but I appreciated not having to use Fn keys and use physical volume dials like Das Keyboard 4. https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-professional https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-professional
- dabluecaboose 5mo ago
  The Das keyboard commits the sin of having a sleep button (why is it even on the keyboard??) right next to the media controls. I've accidentally hit that multiple times when trying to change my music.
  - kijin 5mo ago
    Try borrowing my laptop, it has the power button right next to Delete. You never know what exactly is going to be deleted!
    - dabluecaboose 5mo ago
      Hah, my work-issued laptop has that one as well. Power button should never be inline with normal keys, IMO.
Innittech 5mo ago
[flagged]
- streetfighter64 5mo ago
  cringe
kps 5mo ago
“I don't like the keyboard I bought.”
elric 5mo ago
Thinkpad laptops thankfully have a BIOS option to revert the behaviour to normal, where F1-F12 perform their nominal functions. I'd probably pay an extra €50 for a laptop that didn't come with a stupid Fn button at all. Might want to throw some more money at a few more keyboard modifications: my bottom row is Fn CTRL Win Alt Space AltGr PrtSc Ctrl; that PrtSc button clearly has no business being there. Arrows & PgUp/PgDown are too small. Backspace is too short. Etc.
- card_zero 5mo ago
  Yes, normally a BIOS setting on laptops I think. Before changing it I was hitting sleep constantly since they'd put it on F1, jammed up next to escape.
- lukan 5mo ago
  Thinkpad laptops thankfully have the option to switch Fn and Ctrl Key in the bios, because that Fn in the bottem left is reserved by my muscle memory to ctrl and I won't change that.
  - ndiddy 5mo ago
    They switched the Ctrl/Fn position a year or two ago so people like you would stop complaining. Of course this means that instead you have anybody who's used a thinkpad in the last 30 years complaining about the switch. It's a little better now because they made the keys the same size, so after you switch them in the BIOS you can physically switch the keycaps around.
    - lukan 5mo ago
      Every keyboard I used so far - and those were many, many, many - have the ctrl in the bottom left. Lenovo is the only weird excemption I experienced. So I believe people like me are the vast majority and you should maybe rather blame them, for introducing this weirdness in the first place.
      - cmovq 5mo ago
Elfener 5mo ago
I hate the missing home/end/pgup/pgdn keys more (which is the case on basically all laptops, and you obviously can't just buy a different keyboard for a laptop).
- bethekidyouwant 5mo ago
  Fn down and up arrows only good fn.
tylerflick 5mo ago
Ah WASD keyboards :(. Does anyone by chance have the manuals for the v1 and or v3 coding keyboards from them?
bethekidyouwant 5mo ago
Cant remember using a function key.. but i believe there are programs that do. More curious.. are there people that use the caps lock key? Its great real-estate…
- ziml77 5mo ago
  The caps lock key is good for binding to F13 and using for push-to-talk. I know some people bind it to escape for Vim usage but I don't like that because I'm likely to also use Vim on machines without that key remapped and that messes with muscle memory.
- justsomehnguy 5mo ago
  > there people that use the caps lock key? Yes, of course. Because I programmed my Keychron for it to be a regular LShift. Works very good for my hands. But when I'm on the regular keyboard I have a real trouble with typing or entering passwords, but it's manageable. > Cant remember using a function key I use it for the volume control when I'm in a fullscreen app or with both hands on the keyboard - but only because my Fn is on the right and volume controls on F10-F12.
- adornKey 5mo ago
  I once found that my old Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard had an option to disable the Caps Lock Key in the settings. I immediately used that. Then after a reboot Caps Lock was ON and the Key was disabled - Shift now also didn't disable Caps Lock... That taught me that sometimes you need the Caps lock Key badly... Software can control the state of the key - and you need a way to get rid of that. Back in the day - to enforce only Upper-Case Text in some Text-Field - some software even messed with global Casp Lock State when entering the Text-Field...
- inejge 5mo ago
  > are there people that use the caps lock key? I for one do. Old habit when typing in longish C constants (ECONNRESET) or shell environment variables. I'm used to typing capitals by holding the Shift with the pinky of the other hand than the one entering the letter, so with long strings of capitals sometimes I'd have to switch for every other letter, which gets old fast. With Caps Lock, I press it, type in the letters, press it again. Completion mostly works these days if you have it, but you don't always.
mindslight 5mo ago
The article doesn't even touch on the fact that on these types of keyboards, the F-keys often have bastardized keycaps rather than the regular profile. For example on the Microsoft keyboard example, they're much smaller and probably have crappier travel. The fundamental problems here are the product design pushes to make everything smaller and also to add gimmicky features that seem like they'd be useful but with the constraints just end up taking something else away - note that the examples of good keyboards are made from standard full size keycaps. The rise of bespoke keyboard designers that using off the shelf switches/keycaps is a constraint that pushes away the other two trends. I'd think you can get mechanical keyboards with reasonable wireless functionality these days. If the range isn't long enough, run an active USB extension cord around the room and put the receiver under your couch. Laptops are of course the age-old space where keyboards are scrutinized to death.
kaelwd 5mo ago
Traditional keyboards are dead to me, get something programmable with zmk or qmk and a bunch of extra thumb buttons so they can do something more than just the spacebar. I have ctrl and alt in the outer column inline with letters so they're super easy to press without reaching, and shift, return, backspace on thumbs as well as layer switch for function keys, symbols, numpad, and arrows all accessible from the home position. Bonus points for split too so your wrists aren't at a weird angle.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
nialv7 5mo ago
Just get a keyboard that supports custom firmware and go wild with it. You can do whatever you want.
tedggh 5mo ago
I didn’t know how many keys I didn’t need until I switched to a 50% ortholinear, and I would dare to say even a 40% should be enough for most people.
- brokenmachine 5mo ago
  Layers are great. I barely need to move my hands from the home row at all.
jabroni_salad 5mo ago
For any lenovo enjoyers, know that you can swap Fn and Ctrl in the bios options.
- wingmanjd 5mo ago
  My Framework 13 also has this option for some reason, even though my ctrl key is on the outside
bbzylstra 5mo ago
[dead]
mjmas 5mo ago
The builtin keyboard on Asus StudioBook laptops also gets this right. When holding Alt, the F4 key always acts as that rather than its special action (backlight brightness down).
brianwmunz 5mo ago
I have had it with these mother Fn keys on this mother Fn keyboard!!
luqtas 5mo ago
https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad - An advanced keyboard manager enjoy
KolmogorovComp 5mo ago
The real culprit is having the awkward alt+F4 used for closing an application instead of cmd+W or cmd+Q on macOS for example.
Aachen 5mo ago
Missing the zeroth option in the "doing Fn right" suggestion list: don't use Fn. I have a keyboard here with a handful of extra keys at the top which do all these functions that the author is showing as Fn functions on their keyboard. Isn't that simply the right option? Also on laptops: yes, I want to change the brightness regularly, but also I use the function keys in applications that support them. There's already like 100 keys on there! How much do the extra ones cost? I don't buy the cheapest laptops anyway, I'll buy what I think will work the best. No manufacturer offers this option though. Even Framework has only half-height escape and function keys shared with Fn triggers :(
- JdeBP 5mo ago
  I tend to go for keyboards that don't need all of that messing about with the Fn key, too. By the way: It's a lot more than 100 keys. People tend to accept that because they have what is called a '105-key' keyboard that it actually has 105 keys. One of my '105-key' keyboards has 124 physical keys. For approaching a decade now, I've wanted a 127-key keyboard from Brazil. Formally, that's a '107-key' keyboard. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24499899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24499899
- account42 5mo ago
  For laptops the primary concern will be space rather than cost. With everyone trying to be as thin as possible there isn't much empty space and a more keys need a larger keyboard which also takes more internal space.
jakub_g 5mo ago
Talking the "Sleep" button... Back in 2000s, there were some popular cheap external keyboards with three extra buttons between the delete/end/pgdown row, and the arrows. The first of those buttons was "power off" sitting just below "Delete". Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hendry/330827330 https://www.flickr.com/photos/hendry/330827330 It was pure madness because it was guaranteed to push this button by accident on a daily basis. I can't imagine someone using computers for more than 5 minutes could have designed this.
- vorticalbox 5mo ago
  when i was a teen the "sleep" button was just right of the enter key so if you slipped, which i often did, night night computer.
- orthoxerox 5mo ago
  We had keyboards like this in several labs in the uni! Except they were even worse, and these three keys were shaped like regular keys. When I accidentally powered down my PC the third time in a row, losing all progress on my assignment, I popped the key out of the keyboard.
3form 5mo ago
Something that I'm missing from both the article and the comments - I would remap the sleep button to F4 at OS level. Repeat analogous steps for other keys. Granted, you'll lose these functions, and likely switching to another keyboard will drive you mad, but I guess this is a good stopgap software based solution.
- masfuerte 5mo ago
  Another option (he's using Windows) is "change what the power buttons do" in Control Panel to make the sleep button into a no-op.
bee_rider 5mo ago
The F1-F12 keys have always felt like one of those things where… it’s like, people who enjoy oldschool interfaces seem very attached to. And I love the terminal, so I feel like I ought to have strong opinions in their favor. But the only time I need to use them is… what is it, ctrl-alt-F3 to switch to a console if my window manager has fallen apart. This is a very rare event, so I can’t find any strong feeling here. What do people use these keys for? The volume/brightness keys seem much more useful. Maybe I’ll map the corresponding F-keys to brightness as well, so I can just never care about Fn.
- projektfu 5mo ago
  I guess you never use Excel, or never learned to use it effectively.
  - bee_rider 5mo ago
    Your guess is right. My patience for spreadsheets runs out (and I switch to Python or something) before I hit a problem complex enough that effectiveness matters.
    - projektfu 5mo ago
      No shade! But it's still amazingly effective to know to use F2, F4, F11, F12, etc. Works in LibreOffice as well. F2 to switch to cell edit mode is very useful.
- cl3misch 5mo ago
  Alt-F4 is the canonical shortcut for closing a window F2 is the canonical key for renaming F5 is refresh F11 is fullscreen F1 is for help but admittedly I don't use that a lot I can't think of a very frequent, standard use for the other keys. So I can't really disagree with having so many F keys being kinda unnecessary. But I'm happy to have them and they never bothered me.
  - lepicz 5mo ago
ilaksh 5mo ago
I have a mechanical keyboard also and like tactile feedback. But I think what we really want is just a touch screen with some kind of next level programmable haptics. Then we can have whatever keys we want Products like Tactus or Tanvas were going in the right direction.
djxfade 5mo ago
On macOS, I use a free app called Fluor, that lets me auto switch the Fn key behavior based on which app is active.
fisherwithac 5mo ago
[dead]
maybal 5mo ago
At least your keyboard has a Fn lock shortcut. Mine doesn't, so I'm stuck either taping down the Fn key or living in constant fear of accidentally sleeping my PC. Real first world problems but still
- netsharc 5mo ago
  You can remap the keys so that "Special: Power" key button does nothing.. Or even to the original function (on my keyboard it would mean Volume Down would be F12 instead). One Windows software to do that: https://github.com/randyrants/sharpkeys https://github.com/randyrants/sharpkeys / https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/xpffcg7m673d4f?hl=en-US https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/xpffcg7m673d4f?hl=en-US On Linux, heck it's Linux, for sure it's doable.
liendolucas 5mo ago
I hate laptops now shipping with the Office 365 logo. Apparently the Windows logo wasn't enough. How many more Microsoft symbols will keep polluting keyboards?
- account42 5mo ago
  Pretty sure there will be a Copilot logo soon if it isn't there already on new keyboards. One advantage of mechanical keyboards is that you can usually get custom keycaps with whatever logo you want.
acheron 5mo ago
I know laptops have a bit of a different standard, but for real keyboards, IBM perfected keyboard design in 1985 and all deviations from that are a mistake.
- SoftTalker 5mo ago
  Are you talking about the dual rows of 12 function keys across the top, as in the old mainframe 3270 terminals? Or the "Model F" keyboard with the two vertical rows of 5 keys on the left edge of the keyboard? For me, full-size function keys are the minimum. Granted that real-estate is at a premium on laptops but this isn't an impossible ask IMO.
  - account42 5mo ago
    Well he did say they designed it in 1985 which somewhat narrows it down. I have to agree with gp, the Model M layout is what I consider the "default" and there is very little reason to deviate from it.
XorNot 5mo ago
I definitely hate the G-keys on a Logitech G915 more though. It's a perfectly good full size mechanical keyboard with low travel...and a row of keys on the left hand side which obliterates the typing ergonomics of it. Meanwhile they stopped making the K740 which is basically the perfect keyboard (which I am now typing on after buying a replacement key - the Cherry Stream is good but man....this still just feels better overall - the key layout is just subtly right). Meanwhile whoever at Lenovo thought to the put the function modifier key on the left outermost side, rather then Ctrl, has commited a serious crime against ergonomics.
- scrlk 5mo ago
  The rationale behind the Fn-Ctrl layout used on ThinkPads until very recently: > The Fn key was originally placed by the ThinkPad designers in the lower left hand corner to make the key easier to locate when using the keystroke combinations. There was a rationale. This is especially handy for turning on the ThinkLight in the dark. Aim for the two extreme corners. https://web.archive.org/web/20111115202457/http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/2009/07/fn-versus-ctrl-let-the-games-begin/ https://web.archive.org/web/20111115202457/http://www.lenovo... IMO, putting Ctrl in the bottom left still isn't great for ergonomics: Ctrl should be where Caps Lock is, in line with the home row. This was the case on the original PC keyboard (IBM Model F) before it was moved to the bottom left in the Model M. One of the only mass-produced keyboards that has Ctrl in this position today is the Apple Japanese keyboard: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mxcl3j/a/magic-keyboard-usb-c-japanese https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mxcl3j/a/magic-keyboard-u...
Eji1700 5mo ago
Another VIA/QMK/VIAL nerd, mostly with 40%'s (split or otherwise, Chiri CE and Mercutio being my favorites), I think the main things modern keyboards should flat out adopt: 1. Offer a layout that's swapped CAPS with Ctrl. 2. Split spacebar 3. Remapping on the board The caps/ctrl thing is just so obvious once you daily drive it for a bit. I personally banish caps to another layer and think even on normal keyboards it'd be better on a function layer, but given inertia and people swearing up and down they NEED capslock in 2026, this seems like an easy compromise. The split space just flat out gives you an extra button. Most people hit space with one thumb or the other (and in shockingly consistent spots, I find i use the middle space of 3 key split, which is the 1u). That means the entire other half of the button is wasted real-estate and the thumb on your other hand literally or mostly does nothing. The final one with on board remapping is where you can customize that extra space to be the function you want. I know some people who swear by tap hold, double tap, toggle, whatever. Even thought those are being yelled about in the comments here, whatever your flavor you can do, and you've got a button for it right there. If you still want your standard "i need a button for everything layout" cool, fine, this changes nothing. If one day you decide you want to at least try something new (and if you can already touch type i HIGHLY recommend exploring the space with something cheap), cool. Here's a leaping off point. Personally, the epiphany for me was realizing during some testing that yes i NEED a numpad/function keys all the time. But instead of that being an argument for a fullsize, it was actually an argument for getting better access to another layer so my numbers/functions are under my fingers at all times (4/5/6 is J/K/L). About an hour after testing that I never wanted to go back, and it feels so much slower and arduous when i'm not on one of my boards (god especially things like vim which love their escape key)
olidb 5mo ago
I would really love to see the state of the fn key on the screen, preferably in the task bar. Maybe that would reduce the times I accidently change the volume and brightness.
nailer 5mo ago
> every time I want to press an F-key for its intended purpose Oh. I thought by "I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys" he meant the opposite - many people don't ever use F1-F12 for their intended purpose.
carlosjobim 5mo ago
I'll file this also under the category "unlimited grief and inconvenience". Nobody suffer in this worldly existence as much as hackers do.
sleepybrett 5mo ago
buy a keyboard that support qmk or zmk firmware and remap it further than you might ever want.
rswail 5mo ago
While we're on the topic, I've got an aging WASD that I created the keycaps for, made them fully Mac but an ISO layout. Why are en_US ISO 105-key layout keyboards so hard to find?
amelius 5mo ago
What I hate about keyboards is that you have to select your key layout when you setup your OS. Why isn't that information simply accessible over the USB protocol? Yes, I know why, because they didn't think of it.
- GalaxyNova 5mo ago
  No, it's because a lot of the time you want to use a different keyboard layout. For instance with international keyboards.
  - amelius 5mo ago
    I mean most of the time I want just the layout like it says on the keys. Isn't that representative of at least 90% of all users?
    - account42 5mo ago
      No? Touch typists (which ideally should be everyone using a computer more than occasionally) will prefer the layout they are used to. Programmers are often better off using QWERY + dead keys instead of their country's native layout which might map common programming characters to akward positions. If you are actually looking at the keycaps while typing you're doing it wrong.
kerblang 5mo ago
Important keyboard design note the author would agree with but didn't point out: Function keys are supposed to be divided into groups of four with a distinct gap between each group. This makes it much easier for the wayward touch-typist to find things. BTW I've gone back to wired keyboard because most companies assume people who prefer wireless prefer as many unnecessary bells and whistles as possible to the point of compromising the design. There is no concept of some features being better than others, just a black/white everything/nothing. Also refer to automobiles, tv's, all modern design...
lejeanvaljean 5mo ago
I totally agree, they should offer two versions of each keyboard
Dwedit 5mo ago
Sleep key is scancode E05F In registry "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout" Create Binary value named "Scancode Map" Put in there: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 3E 00 5F E0 00 00 00 00 That changes scancode E05F (Sleep key) into scancode 3E (F4 key). Then logout or reboot for the change to apply. I actually looked up what would be necessary to do this change without a reboot, and it turns out that only WinLogon.exe is allowed to make the Scancode Map change.
- WorldMaker 5mo ago
  A tool to help manage these kinds of rebindings is the Keyboard Manager in PowerToys. As I recall it uses multiple approaches, so it isn't "just" a straight manager of scancode maps, but that also helps it avoid logout/reboot for the initial change to take place.
mhb 5mo ago
Better title: Fn Fn keys
preethamrangu 5mo ago
[flagged]
gavinsyancey 5mo ago
FYI -- You can configure your system to ignore the sleep key (without disabling sleep altogether) by setting HandleSuspendKey=ignore in /etc/systemd/logind.conf (No idea how if you're on Windows/Mac/Devuan but it's probably possible there as well)
tartoran 5mo ago
My Lenovo Carbon X1 daily driver has an option to disable or enable fn keys and uses blue led to indicated the status.
tqwhite 5mo ago
Just use a Macintosh. You can simply tell it to be fn keys instead.
dfxm12 5mo ago
"The default state is the traditional key function" What is the traditional F-key function? Today, on my laptop, I probably use the media controls most, then the brightness controls, then fn+f5 to refresh a page. Is it worth defaulting to some tradition from a time when computers didn't play media or have dimmable displays? How many apps recognize the full set of f keys anyway?
nickcw 5mo ago
> And so, because I don’t want to hold Fn every time I want to press an F-key for its intended purpose, I used the arcane shortcut Fn+Caps to “lock” the keyboard into “standard” mode, where multipurpose F-keys remain multipurpose F-keys unless I hold down the special magic button that transforms them into rarely-used single-purpose special function keys. > But here’s where the problem occurs. If the batteries get changed, or if the keyboard gets turned-off for an extended period, or sometimes – seemingly – just randomly… that function-lock gets switched off. I have this problem with my Microsoft Natural keyboard; my favourite ever Microsoft product which helps me keep my RSI at bay. Every now and again the Fn lock key gets pressed by accident. I then look very confused for some time as to why none of the Fn keys are working before I remember the dratted Fn lock key. The Fn lock key is next to F12 so well in the range of accidental presses. Maybe not many people drive their setup with function keys any more, I don't know.
- kowbell 5mo ago
  I encounter that from time to time on my old Microsoft ergonomic too, you're not alone and its always confusing!
Lammy 5mo ago
Related to this is one and only thing I would say I hate about my Framework Laptop 12: its Airplane Mode key. I keep Fn-lock enabled at all times and use the Fn/LCtrl-swap option in the UEFI just like the one on ThinkPads, but if I ever accidentally hit non-Fn-locked F10 the key code is interpreted by the EC instead of by the OS, so there's nothing I can do in the OS to disable it. Even worse is that it's adjacent to PrintScrn, so it's the “oh fuck I wanted to take a screenshot and just dropped myself from the match” panic panic panic key.
Glyptodon 5mo ago
In general there aren't many great couch keyboards. FN keys aside, some keyboards have dedicated power, sleep, or other keys that are just annoying and dangerous for a couch keyboard.
zzo38computer 5mo ago
I had thought of that in the past too, and also thought that the additional functions (if needed, which it usually isn't, in my opinion) should be the secondary function and not the primary function.
phendrenad2 5mo ago
This is an example of a spandrel, an evolutionary maladaptation that becomes self-reinforcing. The chain of events is as follows: Shaving 1.5" off the top of the keyboard and removing a row of media buttons saves the keyboard company $2 or something. So one budget keyboard company does it. Other companies see this and think "oh, they did market research and realized that people WANT a smaller keyboard more than they want media buttons" and suddenly you can't find a lightweight bluetooth keyboard with separate media buttons. The keyboard industry is blissfully unaware of their mistake until a brave soul named Dan Q blogs about it. This kind of thing is usually quickly corrected, but in a niche like bluetooth keyboards with a touchpad (seriously how many use those other than nerds with jellyfin or a raspberry pi)

186 points by speckx 5mo ago

kgwxd 5mo ago

I have a bin full of pristine keyboards that never see the light of day because of Fn, arrows, Home, and/or End placement. I used to work on 3 different laptops, so I kind of got used to thinking about every stroke using those keys, but I never want to go back there, it's so mentally taxing.

zf00002 5mo ago
I find the "wrong" FN keyboards annoying like OP, but the Home/End to Pgup/Dn grouping of keys is what really makes or breaks a great keyboard layout for me.

swyx 5mo ago

> I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys (danq.me) > 11 points by speckx 13 minutes ago | flag | hide | 1 comment this is currently #1 on HN gaining 11 points in 13 mins. never seen this before.

kgwxd 5mo ago
I'm pretty sure I'm the first that upvoted it, when it was #2 on the "new" page, like 3 minutes ago. I was very surprised to see it here when I went back to the main page. I'm sure the topic hits a lot of nerves :)
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]

chrisandchris 5mo ago

Some models do have physical switches on the back witj which you can enable / disable this behaviour. One of the many cases where physical buttons/switches are superior to software-only options.

shit_game 5mo ago
Only tangentially related, but I've found myself down a rabbit hole with some ancient BigKeys keyboards (designed/manufactured by Greystone Digital), and a small handful of them have a physical switch on their underside that switches them between QWERTY and ASDF layout; it's genuinely perplexing because the code theyre running on the boards is not at all standard PS/2 or USB (save a few later revisions/models). There is a DFK48 V1.2 (mfg 1994) that I have been fighting with for some time now, and it angers me to no end. The lengths that peripheral manufacturers will go to to create "functionality" is wild, having looked at hardware like this for the first time. Granted, I'm working with what is widely considered an accessibility HID, the fact that "stickey keys" (as theyre known in Windows) is a default function of this keyboard, which breaks all common passive PS/2 -> USB adapters due to encoding differences, significantly fucks up my workflow in using it with modern hardware by using unique encodings AFAICT. It's a wonderful puzzle, but an annoyance for someone trying to accomplish anything. I'm confident this shit could be oneshot with LLMs, but that's not the point of the work, in case anyone was considering chiming in about them. Part of me needs to realize that this was made 30+ years ago, before we knew what we now know. But another part of me feels intense animosity for such early, unabashed, and shameless abandon in regards to HID standards/protocols. Using what is effectively Stickey Keys by default and breaking PS/2 -> USB adaptability because of that is annoying as hell, even if the thing is $50 on ebay.

croisillon 5mo ago

constantly lowering my luminosity instead of refreshing my page :(

mmsc 5mo ago

A missed opportunity to say you 'Fn' hate the Fn key :)

kijin 5mo ago
Thanks for the idea! Now I'm going to mash the Fn key whenever I feel the urge to strongly emphasize something but can't actually type it out because, well, it would be Fn NSFW.
- chuckadams 5mo ago
  On a mac that will pop up the emoji keyboard, allowing you to further express your feelings in ways that won't render on HN :)

CarVac 5mo ago

Speaking of "natural scrolling" it is horrible because most scrolling is downward and "natural" is an ergonomically inferior pushing action instead of pulling. It's only natural on the actual display itself. Anothe affront to nature by Apple, along with killing the headphone jack.

p-e-w 5mo ago
Reasonable-sounding arguments always come up in these debates, but in reality it all comes down to what you’re used to. Disabling natural scrolling used to be the first thing I did on a new system. Until I once was too lazy to do it, got used to it, and now I can’t imagine ever going back.
- mikepurvis 5mo ago
  So I was a Mac user for years and accepted and adapted to natural scrolling after it appeared as the default in 2011. When I switched back to a Windows laptop for work around 2018, I kept it on natural mode. But then two years ago I got a desktop computer with an external mouse again and.... natural scrolling doesn't work for me on a physical wheel. With a trackpad, the metaphor is direct, that the page or document is being moved by the motion of your fingers; but with a wheel, I still want to pull it toward me to scroll down, because that feels like rolling the little wheel along the document, or turning it to advance the document beneath, like a printer finishing a page. Maybe that's all silly, but for me it's natural scrolling on trackpads and conventional scrolling on mice with scrollwheels.
  - mjmas 5mo ago
    > Maybe that's all silly No it isn't. Both examples match perfectly physically: - Touchpad is like dragging the piece of paper directly. - Scroll wheel is like having the paper on the other side of the wheel.
  - ziml77 5mo ago
    That's the sane handling of scrolling. macOS is weird for tying the scrolling direction of trackpads and mouse wheels in a single setting.

tom1337890 5mo ago

I totally agree and I feel you.

piekvorst 5mo ago

Instead of using a single menu bar icon “volume control,” I have transferred the lessons of the keyboard to the GUI and placed two buttons in my menu bar: volume down and volume up. I have been using them all the time for about half a year now. The benefits of this approach, to my knowledge and estimation, include: no waiting for a slider to appear; no nested actions; no need to read the current value; each click does not depend on the current state; Fitts’ Law muscle memory boost (the buttons are effectively infinite-height targets); discoverability compared to scrollwheelable icons.

skirmish 5mo ago
What works well for me is a taskbar icon with mouse scrolling (Waybar pulseaudio module on Sway). You see 50% and a speaker icon, hover and scroll up or down to instantly change.
- account42 5mo ago
  I prefer having keyboard shortcuts and NOT seeing the numeric volume level at all because otherwise I will have to set the volume to a multiple of 5 or 2 even if the optimal setting is another number. You could also do this with scrolling but for something where you might want immediate changes its good to have keys or key combinations that reliably work everywhere (even with fullscreen applications) instead of having to position the cursor over a small icon.
  - piekvorst 5mo ago
    The icon is traditionally small indeed, but it shouldn’t be. I use the strings “vol-“ and “vol+” as icons, which makes the whole thing 8 characters long. As a universal law, optimizing the fullscreen experience is a suboptimal goal. Generally, the best solutions are the ones that operate at the appropriate level, and if we optimize the fullscreen experience, then most solutions built for the right level are inaccessible to us.

jraph 5mo ago

The HP Elitebook laptops get this right. You can configure whether you prefer the standard behavior or to use the actions assigned to the F keys by default, I think in the BIOS, and then you can use fn lock to switch at runtime. That's nice in itself but that's not all. In the latter mode, holding a modifier key like Alt makes the F key act standard, so Alt+F4 works in any mode as expected.

__s 5mo ago

I've switched to programmable ergo keyboards where there's a whole slew of options (https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods just covers home row mods) I've always hated stateful control. Always ripped out caps lock key from my boards (or later figured out remapping), same for insert mode That's carried over, even with options like one shot mods, & cutting down to under 40 keys (& playing with 28, yesterday received a https://github.com/kilipan/zilpzalp https://github.com/kilipan/zilpzalp), I still don't find stateful control necessary. More layers, combos, & tap-hold go far

xedrac 5mo ago
You sound like you would prefer Emacs over Vim.
- packetlost 5mo ago
  I mostly agree with GP on stateful controls, but emacs has never clicked for me like vim did. Perhaps it's because switching between modes feels more natural than a simple toggle.
  - allarm 5mo ago
    I have the same feeling and I use evil-mode in Emacs because of that. It's basically Vim inside of Emacs.
    - packetlost 5mo ago
      I tried evil-mode for awhile, but it had too many edge cases that behave differently so I went back /shrug
      - hirvi74 5mo ago
        I have my instance set up to enable/disable evil via a keybinding. That way, the edge cases can be handled smoothly. There is also a way to configure evil so that emacs keybindings work while in Insert mode, but not in Normal or Visual mode, if that matters at all.

kanemcgrath 5mo ago

One of my favorite things about my custom mechanical keyboard, is being able to remap the entire key set in the firmware with VIA. I have fn+arrow keys for media, fn+space for play/pause fn+end for calculator, and a bunch of random others. It is so useful I could never get another keyboard that doesn’t have a similar functionality.

TacticalCoder 5mo ago
> It is so useful I could never get another keyboard that doesn’t have a similar functionality. I do it at the software level (Linux / Xorg): complete remapping, with an "hyper" key modifier etc. The reason I do it at the software level is that you can pry my Topre switches from my cold dead hands and the HHKB Pro JP I'm using doesn't have, by default, a programmable controller. Now I know some people mod their Topre keyboards to add a programmable controller but I never got to that point. Doing so in hardware using .xkb files is... Something. I know way more about .xkb files than I should but, thankfully, so far I've just been able to brink my .xkb file to every new Linux version (supporting Xorg, I'm not on Wayland). I take at some point I'll look more into how to mod my HHKB keyboards with programmable controller.
- jaywcarman 5mo ago
  I put a Hasu controller[1] in my Leopold F660C (Topre switches) and couldn't be happier. Though it voids the warranty, installation was very easy and it allows total control of the keymap via TMK. Looks like there are similar controllers by Hasu for HHKB[2]. If you can manage to order one I highly recommend it! [1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88720.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88720.0 [2]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71517.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71517.0

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

pknomad 5mo ago

> It was nice that they gave dedicated keys to volume control/toggling muting. I know it's not an option for certain keyboards (and laptop keyboards) but I appreciated not having to use Fn keys and use physical volume dials like Das Keyboard 4. https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-professional https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-professional

dabluecaboose 5mo ago
The Das keyboard commits the sin of having a sleep button (why is it even on the keyboard??) right next to the media controls. I've accidentally hit that multiple times when trying to change my music.
- kijin 5mo ago
  Try borrowing my laptop, it has the power button right next to Delete. You never know what exactly is going to be deleted!
  - dabluecaboose 5mo ago
    Hah, my work-issued laptop has that one as well. Power button should never be inline with normal keys, IMO.

Innittech 5mo ago

[flagged]

streetfighter64 5mo ago
cringe

kps 5mo ago

“I don't like the keyboard I bought.”

elric 5mo ago

Thinkpad laptops thankfully have a BIOS option to revert the behaviour to normal, where F1-F12 perform their nominal functions. I'd probably pay an extra €50 for a laptop that didn't come with a stupid Fn button at all. Might want to throw some more money at a few more keyboard modifications: my bottom row is Fn CTRL Win Alt Space AltGr PrtSc Ctrl; that PrtSc button clearly has no business being there. Arrows & PgUp/PgDown are too small. Backspace is too short. Etc.

card_zero 5mo ago
Yes, normally a BIOS setting on laptops I think. Before changing it I was hitting sleep constantly since they'd put it on F1, jammed up next to escape.
lukan 5mo ago
Thinkpad laptops thankfully have the option to switch Fn and Ctrl Key in the bios, because that Fn in the bottem left is reserved by my muscle memory to ctrl and I won't change that.
- ndiddy 5mo ago
  They switched the Ctrl/Fn position a year or two ago so people like you would stop complaining. Of course this means that instead you have anybody who's used a thinkpad in the last 30 years complaining about the switch. It's a little better now because they made the keys the same size, so after you switch them in the BIOS you can physically switch the keycaps around.
  - lukan 5mo ago
    Every keyboard I used so far - and those were many, many, many - have the ctrl in the bottom left. Lenovo is the only weird excemption I experienced. So I believe people like me are the vast majority and you should maybe rather blame them, for introducing this weirdness in the first place.
    - cmovq 5mo ago

Elfener 5mo ago

I hate the missing home/end/pgup/pgdn keys more (which is the case on basically all laptops, and you obviously can't just buy a different keyboard for a laptop).

bethekidyouwant 5mo ago
Fn down and up arrows only good fn.

tylerflick 5mo ago

Ah WASD keyboards :(. Does anyone by chance have the manuals for the v1 and or v3 coding keyboards from them?

bethekidyouwant 5mo ago

Cant remember using a function key.. but i believe there are programs that do. More curious.. are there people that use the caps lock key? Its great real-estate…

ziml77 5mo ago
The caps lock key is good for binding to F13 and using for push-to-talk. I know some people bind it to escape for Vim usage but I don't like that because I'm likely to also use Vim on machines without that key remapped and that messes with muscle memory.
justsomehnguy 5mo ago
> there people that use the caps lock key? Yes, of course. Because I programmed my Keychron for it to be a regular LShift. Works very good for my hands. But when I'm on the regular keyboard I have a real trouble with typing or entering passwords, but it's manageable. > Cant remember using a function key I use it for the volume control when I'm in a fullscreen app or with both hands on the keyboard - but only because my Fn is on the right and volume controls on F10-F12.
adornKey 5mo ago
I once found that my old Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard had an option to disable the Caps Lock Key in the settings. I immediately used that. Then after a reboot Caps Lock was ON and the Key was disabled - Shift now also didn't disable Caps Lock... That taught me that sometimes you need the Caps lock Key badly... Software can control the state of the key - and you need a way to get rid of that. Back in the day - to enforce only Upper-Case Text in some Text-Field - some software even messed with global Casp Lock State when entering the Text-Field...
inejge 5mo ago
> are there people that use the caps lock key? I for one do. Old habit when typing in longish C constants (ECONNRESET) or shell environment variables. I'm used to typing capitals by holding the Shift with the pinky of the other hand than the one entering the letter, so with long strings of capitals sometimes I'd have to switch for every other letter, which gets old fast. With Caps Lock, I press it, type in the letters, press it again. Completion mostly works these days if you have it, but you don't always.

mindslight 5mo ago

The article doesn't even touch on the fact that on these types of keyboards, the F-keys often have bastardized keycaps rather than the regular profile. For example on the Microsoft keyboard example, they're much smaller and probably have crappier travel. The fundamental problems here are the product design pushes to make everything smaller and also to add gimmicky features that seem like they'd be useful but with the constraints just end up taking something else away - note that the examples of good keyboards are made from standard full size keycaps. The rise of bespoke keyboard designers that using off the shelf switches/keycaps is a constraint that pushes away the other two trends. I'd think you can get mechanical keyboards with reasonable wireless functionality these days. If the range isn't long enough, run an active USB extension cord around the room and put the receiver under your couch. Laptops are of course the age-old space where keyboards are scrutinized to death.

kaelwd 5mo ago

Traditional keyboards are dead to me, get something programmable with zmk or qmk and a bunch of extra thumb buttons so they can do something more than just the spacebar. I have ctrl and alt in the outer column inline with letters so they're super easy to press without reaching, and shift, return, backspace on thumbs as well as layer switch for function keys, symbols, numpad, and arrows all accessible from the home position. Bonus points for split too so your wrists aren't at a weird angle.

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

nialv7 5mo ago

Just get a keyboard that supports custom firmware and go wild with it. You can do whatever you want.

tedggh 5mo ago

I didn’t know how many keys I didn’t need until I switched to a 50% ortholinear, and I would dare to say even a 40% should be enough for most people.

brokenmachine 5mo ago
Layers are great. I barely need to move my hands from the home row at all.

jabroni_salad 5mo ago

For any lenovo enjoyers, know that you can swap Fn and Ctrl in the bios options.

wingmanjd 5mo ago
My Framework 13 also has this option for some reason, even though my ctrl key is on the outside

bbzylstra 5mo ago

[dead]

mjmas 5mo ago

The builtin keyboard on Asus StudioBook laptops also gets this right. When holding Alt, the F4 key always acts as that rather than its special action (backlight brightness down).

brianwmunz 5mo ago

I have had it with these mother Fn keys on this mother Fn keyboard!!

luqtas 5mo ago

https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad - An advanced keyboard manager enjoy

KolmogorovComp 5mo ago

The real culprit is having the awkward alt+F4 used for closing an application instead of cmd+W or cmd+Q on macOS for example.

Aachen 5mo ago

Missing the zeroth option in the "doing Fn right" suggestion list: don't use Fn. I have a keyboard here with a handful of extra keys at the top which do all these functions that the author is showing as Fn functions on their keyboard. Isn't that simply the right option? Also on laptops: yes, I want to change the brightness regularly, but also I use the function keys in applications that support them. There's already like 100 keys on there! How much do the extra ones cost? I don't buy the cheapest laptops anyway, I'll buy what I think will work the best. No manufacturer offers this option though. Even Framework has only half-height escape and function keys shared with Fn triggers :(

JdeBP 5mo ago
I tend to go for keyboards that don't need all of that messing about with the Fn key, too. By the way: It's a lot more than 100 keys. People tend to accept that because they have what is called a '105-key' keyboard that it actually has 105 keys. One of my '105-key' keyboards has 124 physical keys. For approaching a decade now, I've wanted a 127-key keyboard from Brazil. Formally, that's a '107-key' keyboard. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24499899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24499899
account42 5mo ago
For laptops the primary concern will be space rather than cost. With everyone trying to be as thin as possible there isn't much empty space and a more keys need a larger keyboard which also takes more internal space.

jakub_g 5mo ago

Talking the "Sleep" button... Back in 2000s, there were some popular cheap external keyboards with three extra buttons between the delete/end/pgdown row, and the arrows. The first of those buttons was "power off" sitting just below "Delete". Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hendry/330827330 https://www.flickr.com/photos/hendry/330827330 It was pure madness because it was guaranteed to push this button by accident on a daily basis. I can't imagine someone using computers for more than 5 minutes could have designed this.

vorticalbox 5mo ago
when i was a teen the "sleep" button was just right of the enter key so if you slipped, which i often did, night night computer.
orthoxerox 5mo ago
We had keyboards like this in several labs in the uni! Except they were even worse, and these three keys were shaped like regular keys. When I accidentally powered down my PC the third time in a row, losing all progress on my assignment, I popped the key out of the keyboard.

3form 5mo ago

Something that I'm missing from both the article and the comments - I would remap the sleep button to F4 at OS level. Repeat analogous steps for other keys. Granted, you'll lose these functions, and likely switching to another keyboard will drive you mad, but I guess this is a good stopgap software based solution.

masfuerte 5mo ago
Another option (he's using Windows) is "change what the power buttons do" in Control Panel to make the sleep button into a no-op.

bee_rider 5mo ago

The F1-F12 keys have always felt like one of those things where… it’s like, people who enjoy oldschool interfaces seem very attached to. And I love the terminal, so I feel like I ought to have strong opinions in their favor. But the only time I need to use them is… what is it, ctrl-alt-F3 to switch to a console if my window manager has fallen apart. This is a very rare event, so I can’t find any strong feeling here. What do people use these keys for? The volume/brightness keys seem much more useful. Maybe I’ll map the corresponding F-keys to brightness as well, so I can just never care about Fn.

projektfu 5mo ago
I guess you never use Excel, or never learned to use it effectively.
- bee_rider 5mo ago
  Your guess is right. My patience for spreadsheets runs out (and I switch to Python or something) before I hit a problem complex enough that effectiveness matters.
  - projektfu 5mo ago
    No shade! But it's still amazingly effective to know to use F2, F4, F11, F12, etc. Works in LibreOffice as well. F2 to switch to cell edit mode is very useful.
cl3misch 5mo ago
Alt-F4 is the canonical shortcut for closing a window F2 is the canonical key for renaming F5 is refresh F11 is fullscreen F1 is for help but admittedly I don't use that a lot I can't think of a very frequent, standard use for the other keys. So I can't really disagree with having so many F keys being kinda unnecessary. But I'm happy to have them and they never bothered me.
- lepicz 5mo ago

ilaksh 5mo ago

I have a mechanical keyboard also and like tactile feedback. But I think what we really want is just a touch screen with some kind of next level programmable haptics. Then we can have whatever keys we want Products like Tactus or Tanvas were going in the right direction.

djxfade 5mo ago

On macOS, I use a free app called Fluor, that lets me auto switch the Fn key behavior based on which app is active.

fisherwithac 5mo ago

[dead]

maybal 5mo ago

At least your keyboard has a Fn lock shortcut. Mine doesn't, so I'm stuck either taping down the Fn key or living in constant fear of accidentally sleeping my PC. Real first world problems but still

netsharc 5mo ago
You can remap the keys so that "Special: Power" key button does nothing.. Or even to the original function (on my keyboard it would mean Volume Down would be F12 instead). One Windows software to do that: https://github.com/randyrants/sharpkeys https://github.com/randyrants/sharpkeys / https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/xpffcg7m673d4f?hl=en-US https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/xpffcg7m673d4f?hl=en-US On Linux, heck it's Linux, for sure it's doable.

liendolucas 5mo ago

I hate laptops now shipping with the Office 365 logo. Apparently the Windows logo wasn't enough. How many more Microsoft symbols will keep polluting keyboards?

account42 5mo ago
Pretty sure there will be a Copilot logo soon if it isn't there already on new keyboards. One advantage of mechanical keyboards is that you can usually get custom keycaps with whatever logo you want.

acheron 5mo ago

I know laptops have a bit of a different standard, but for real keyboards, IBM perfected keyboard design in 1985 and all deviations from that are a mistake.

SoftTalker 5mo ago
Are you talking about the dual rows of 12 function keys across the top, as in the old mainframe 3270 terminals? Or the "Model F" keyboard with the two vertical rows of 5 keys on the left edge of the keyboard? For me, full-size function keys are the minimum. Granted that real-estate is at a premium on laptops but this isn't an impossible ask IMO.
- account42 5mo ago
  Well he did say they designed it in 1985 which somewhat narrows it down. I have to agree with gp, the Model M layout is what I consider the "default" and there is very little reason to deviate from it.

XorNot 5mo ago

I definitely hate the G-keys on a Logitech G915 more though. It's a perfectly good full size mechanical keyboard with low travel...and a row of keys on the left hand side which obliterates the typing ergonomics of it. Meanwhile they stopped making the K740 which is basically the perfect keyboard (which I am now typing on after buying a replacement key - the Cherry Stream is good but man....this still just feels better overall - the key layout is just subtly right). Meanwhile whoever at Lenovo thought to the put the function modifier key on the left outermost side, rather then Ctrl, has commited a serious crime against ergonomics.

scrlk 5mo ago
The rationale behind the Fn-Ctrl layout used on ThinkPads until very recently: > The Fn key was originally placed by the ThinkPad designers in the lower left hand corner to make the key easier to locate when using the keystroke combinations. There was a rationale. This is especially handy for turning on the ThinkLight in the dark. Aim for the two extreme corners. https://web.archive.org/web/20111115202457/http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/2009/07/fn-versus-ctrl-let-the-games-begin/ https://web.archive.org/web/20111115202457/http://www.lenovo... IMO, putting Ctrl in the bottom left still isn't great for ergonomics: Ctrl should be where Caps Lock is, in line with the home row. This was the case on the original PC keyboard (IBM Model F) before it was moved to the bottom left in the Model M. One of the only mass-produced keyboards that has Ctrl in this position today is the Apple Japanese keyboard: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mxcl3j/a/magic-keyboard-usb-c-japanese https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mxcl3j/a/magic-keyboard-u...

Eji1700 5mo ago

Another VIA/QMK/VIAL nerd, mostly with 40%'s (split or otherwise, Chiri CE and Mercutio being my favorites), I think the main things modern keyboards should flat out adopt: 1. Offer a layout that's swapped CAPS with Ctrl. 2. Split spacebar 3. Remapping on the board The caps/ctrl thing is just so obvious once you daily drive it for a bit. I personally banish caps to another layer and think even on normal keyboards it'd be better on a function layer, but given inertia and people swearing up and down they NEED capslock in 2026, this seems like an easy compromise. The split space just flat out gives you an extra button. Most people hit space with one thumb or the other (and in shockingly consistent spots, I find i use the middle space of 3 key split, which is the 1u). That means the entire other half of the button is wasted real-estate and the thumb on your other hand literally or mostly does nothing. The final one with on board remapping is where you can customize that extra space to be the function you want. I know some people who swear by tap hold, double tap, toggle, whatever. Even thought those are being yelled about in the comments here, whatever your flavor you can do, and you've got a button for it right there. If you still want your standard "i need a button for everything layout" cool, fine, this changes nothing. If one day you decide you want to at least try something new (and if you can already touch type i HIGHLY recommend exploring the space with something cheap), cool. Here's a leaping off point. Personally, the epiphany for me was realizing during some testing that yes i NEED a numpad/function keys all the time. But instead of that being an argument for a fullsize, it was actually an argument for getting better access to another layer so my numbers/functions are under my fingers at all times (4/5/6 is J/K/L). About an hour after testing that I never wanted to go back, and it feels so much slower and arduous when i'm not on one of my boards (god especially things like vim which love their escape key)

olidb 5mo ago

I would really love to see the state of the fn key on the screen, preferably in the task bar. Maybe that would reduce the times I accidently change the volume and brightness.

nailer 5mo ago

> every time I want to press an F-key for its intended purpose Oh. I thought by "I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys" he meant the opposite - many people don't ever use F1-F12 for their intended purpose.

carlosjobim 5mo ago

I'll file this also under the category "unlimited grief and inconvenience". Nobody suffer in this worldly existence as much as hackers do.

sleepybrett 5mo ago

buy a keyboard that support qmk or zmk firmware and remap it further than you might ever want.

rswail 5mo ago

While we're on the topic, I've got an aging WASD that I created the keycaps for, made them fully Mac but an ISO layout. Why are en_US ISO 105-key layout keyboards so hard to find?

amelius 5mo ago

What I hate about keyboards is that you have to select your key layout when you setup your OS. Why isn't that information simply accessible over the USB protocol? Yes, I know why, because they didn't think of it.

GalaxyNova 5mo ago
No, it's because a lot of the time you want to use a different keyboard layout. For instance with international keyboards.
- amelius 5mo ago
  I mean most of the time I want just the layout like it says on the keys. Isn't that representative of at least 90% of all users?
  - account42 5mo ago
    No? Touch typists (which ideally should be everyone using a computer more than occasionally) will prefer the layout they are used to. Programmers are often better off using QWERY + dead keys instead of their country's native layout which might map common programming characters to akward positions. If you are actually looking at the keycaps while typing you're doing it wrong.

kerblang 5mo ago

Important keyboard design note the author would agree with but didn't point out: Function keys are supposed to be divided into groups of four with a distinct gap between each group. This makes it much easier for the wayward touch-typist to find things. BTW I've gone back to wired keyboard because most companies assume people who prefer wireless prefer as many unnecessary bells and whistles as possible to the point of compromising the design. There is no concept of some features being better than others, just a black/white everything/nothing. Also refer to automobiles, tv's, all modern design...

lejeanvaljean 5mo ago

I totally agree, they should offer two versions of each keyboard

Dwedit 5mo ago

Sleep key is scancode E05F In registry "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout" Create Binary value named "Scancode Map" Put in there: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 3E 00 5F E0 00 00 00 00 That changes scancode E05F (Sleep key) into scancode 3E (F4 key). Then logout or reboot for the change to apply. I actually looked up what would be necessary to do this change without a reboot, and it turns out that only WinLogon.exe is allowed to make the Scancode Map change.

WorldMaker 5mo ago
A tool to help manage these kinds of rebindings is the Keyboard Manager in PowerToys. As I recall it uses multiple approaches, so it isn't "just" a straight manager of scancode maps, but that also helps it avoid logout/reboot for the initial change to take place.

mhb 5mo ago

Better title: Fn Fn keys

preethamrangu 5mo ago

[flagged]

gavinsyancey 5mo ago

FYI -- You can configure your system to ignore the sleep key (without disabling sleep altogether) by setting HandleSuspendKey=ignore in /etc/systemd/logind.conf (No idea how if you're on Windows/Mac/Devuan but it's probably possible there as well)

tartoran 5mo ago

My Lenovo Carbon X1 daily driver has an option to disable or enable fn keys and uses blue led to indicated the status.

tqwhite 5mo ago

Just use a Macintosh. You can simply tell it to be fn keys instead.

dfxm12 5mo ago

"The default state is the traditional key function" What is the traditional F-key function? Today, on my laptop, I probably use the media controls most, then the brightness controls, then fn+f5 to refresh a page. Is it worth defaulting to some tradition from a time when computers didn't play media or have dimmable displays? How many apps recognize the full set of f keys anyway?

nickcw 5mo ago

> And so, because I don’t want to hold Fn every time I want to press an F-key for its intended purpose, I used the arcane shortcut Fn+Caps to “lock” the keyboard into “standard” mode, where multipurpose F-keys remain multipurpose F-keys unless I hold down the special magic button that transforms them into rarely-used single-purpose special function keys. > But here’s where the problem occurs. If the batteries get changed, or if the keyboard gets turned-off for an extended period, or sometimes – seemingly – just randomly… that function-lock gets switched off. I have this problem with my Microsoft Natural keyboard; my favourite ever Microsoft product which helps me keep my RSI at bay. Every now and again the Fn lock key gets pressed by accident. I then look very confused for some time as to why none of the Fn keys are working before I remember the dratted Fn lock key. The Fn lock key is next to F12 so well in the range of accidental presses. Maybe not many people drive their setup with function keys any more, I don't know.

kowbell 5mo ago
I encounter that from time to time on my old Microsoft ergonomic too, you're not alone and its always confusing!

Lammy 5mo ago

Related to this is one and only thing I would say I hate about my Framework Laptop 12: its Airplane Mode key. I keep Fn-lock enabled at all times and use the Fn/LCtrl-swap option in the UEFI just like the one on ThinkPads, but if I ever accidentally hit non-Fn-locked F10 the key code is interpreted by the EC instead of by the OS, so there's nothing I can do in the OS to disable it. Even worse is that it's adjacent to PrintScrn, so it's the “oh fuck I wanted to take a screenshot and just dropped myself from the match” panic panic panic key.

Glyptodon 5mo ago

In general there aren't many great couch keyboards. FN keys aside, some keyboards have dedicated power, sleep, or other keys that are just annoying and dangerous for a couch keyboard.

zzo38computer 5mo ago

I had thought of that in the past too, and also thought that the additional functions (if needed, which it usually isn't, in my opinion) should be the secondary function and not the primary function.

phendrenad2 5mo ago

This is an example of a spandrel, an evolutionary maladaptation that becomes self-reinforcing. The chain of events is as follows: Shaving 1.5" off the top of the keyboard and removing a row of media buttons saves the keyboard company $2 or something. So one budget keyboard company does it. Other companies see this and think "oh, they did market research and realized that people WANT a smaller keyboard more than they want media buttons" and suddenly you can't find a lightweight bluetooth keyboard with separate media buttons. The keyboard industry is blissfully unaware of their mistake until a brave soul named Dan Q blogs about it. This kind of thing is usually quickly corrected, but in a niche like bluetooth keyboards with a touchpad (seriously how many use those other than nerds with jellyfin or a raspberry pi)