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It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN. It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me ro

by jdw64 5mo ago

It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN. It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is that this system is heavily driven by Japan's unique, subtle classism. It's a highly collectivist society with strict age-based milestones and immense pressure to secure traditional employment. In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing. The author paints the lack of shareholder pressure as the secret behind their successful diversification. While true for a few, the flip side is that it created a massive 'zombie company' problem—a heavily discussed issue in Korea and Japan that the West seems largely blind to. Also, the idea of a 'horizontal culture' in Japan is a myth, especially in software. Even a glance at the Japanese web(5ch, onJ etc...) reveals a deeply entrenched vertical hierarchy. In my experience working with Japanese developers, their reliance on the legacy Waterfall model and an exhausting chain of approvals and reporting was far from horizontal. (Though I admit my sample size is small, it heavily contradicts the Western narrative). I agree that this rigid system fosters the tacit knowledge needed for hardware and materials. Still, it proves that we all tend to project our fantasies onto cultures we don't fully understand. The divergence in perspectives on HN never fails to amuse me.

wileydragonfly 5mo ago
“Weeabo crap” was also my take on the article.
showerst 5mo ago
I didn't feel like this article necessarily idolized it; the author seemed pretty even-handed about strengths and weaknesses. The interesting question in all of these kinds of things is "are there ideas we can take to gain the strengths of other systems or patch the weaknesses in ours?". Looking at Japan specifically, I think I speak for most westerners in saying that if we could get a little more stability and less financial-quarter-driven behavior without taking the whole kit of lifetime employment and zombie companies, that would be a good thing. The author points out just how bundled that is, so it's a tough nut to crack. One model that does give us that is the 'Untouchable visionary CEO' of Jobs and Musk, but I think the popularity of that approach is also limited, partially because of all the not so visionary CEOs trying to be Jobs, and partially because working for those guys is terrible. They inevitably seem to become tyrants. Most Americans I know are familiar with the unending work culture of Japanese white collar workers (if only a parody version of it), and want no part of it.
- jimbokun 5mo ago
  Interestingly this article argues very strongly that you cannot have some of those things without taking all of them. That the various aspects of corporate culture reinforce each other and make performance worse if taken piecemeal.
- fyrn_ 5mo ago
  Although from the perspective of most of the world, the US is also very work oriented. We also work some of the longest hours
  - kevmo314 5mo ago
    The American work week has been progressively shortening over the years: https://www.gallup.com/workplace/658235/why-americans-working-less.aspx https://www.gallup.com/workplace/658235/why-americans-workin... Americans including myself love saying we’re busy though.
    - fyrn_ 5mo ago
      > Thinking about your primary job: On average, how many hours do you work per week? Not really sure they are measuring what they think they are measuring. This being more pronounced amongst young people may be because working long is being seen as less and less cool, as there has been a major vibe shift among young workers regarding their relationships with employers. Doesn't necessarily mean they are actually working less, might mean they don't want to admit it. Revealed concrete hours would be much more trustworthy
reedf1 5mo ago
Did you read it? I can see how you can come to this conclusion devoid of context. This is actually a topical article - mainly because it is a surprise to many that a toilet company could be one of the biggest winners in the AI pick-and-shovel trade. These names have just recently been hoisted into the spotlight. It's not really a romanization but an explanation of why.
jodacola 5mo ago
> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. Quite the opposite - for me, anyway. FWIW, as a Westerner, I find the Mondragon Corporation to be fascinating and something I've read a lot about because there's no way we've figured out the ideal sort of setup for a business (or government, or any sort of human organization, given appropriate context) in the year 2026. We have a lot to learn, and while "different" doesn't always mean "better," I strongly believe being exposed to "different" is necessary for us to devise novel approaches to human organization.
- amunozo 5mo ago
  Same thing, being Spanish the Basque Cooperatives movement is fascinating. Do you have any recommended read about it?
  - gigatree 5mo ago
    The most recent video I could find about this was from like 7 years ago, very weird
    - oceanhaiyang 5mo ago
      Maybe try a book instead of YouTube. Not weird as it probably isn’t something that would get clicks
      - shimman 5mo ago
        Any particular books you'd recommend?
      - gigatree 5mo ago
        Disagree. Many less interesting things than a large functioning modern collective get millions of views.
  - lo_zamoyski 5mo ago
SubiculumCode 5mo ago
Did you read the entire article? There is a whole section on where western model excels. The article is not about romanticizing Japanese culture, but to tell a story about how and why Japanese and American firms tend to differ. I am sure that it paints in overly broad strokes at times, but I really did not get the impression of idolization, idealism, or even oriental mysticism.
- jdw64 5mo ago
  I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true. In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal. If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
  - mbesto 5mo ago
    > is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true. > In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. Well that's just like your opinion...man. I think you're both singularly wrong. Trying to attribute a single factor to a highly complex system is a fool's errand. If your conclusion is correct "ruthless squeezing of subcontractors" are there other cultures whether there is true and the country has been successful in precision parts? Otherwise, it's pretty impossible to conclude the causality.
    - 5mo ago
BJones12 5mo ago
> how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? HN has had posts romanticizing them, maybe check those https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32622140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32622140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 > it created a massive 'zombie company' problem—a heavily discussed issue in Korea and Japan that the West seems largely blind to Zombie companies in the west are mentioned as a low/ZIRP phenomena. But the west shouldn't have as big an issue with those because companies, when less diversified, get killed off more often by interest rate hikes.
- bobthepanda 5mo ago
  Zombie companies exist in Europe; at least part of the euro crisis was exacerbated by the continuing cascade of bankruptcies making other banks insolvent. The EU’s crisis schemes like furloughing employees en masse dull the pain but also do prolong some companies’ lives. The US historically has had much more brutal impacts but quicker recoveries.
- jim33442 5mo ago
  And the US ZIRP zombie companies die at some point even without rate hikes
mhluongo 5mo ago
> if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? Speaking for myself, I'd find that very interesting! I just stumbled over an article about it a few days ago, and don't think it's weird that different parts of the world would be interested in a regional business phenomenon.
MetaWhirledPeas 5mo ago
As someone who finds Japanese corporate culture interesting or even desirable in some ways, it definitely doesn't seem like the most efficient way to run a company. And I'm sure there are plenty of cultural aspects that would not be my cup of tea.
- koliber 5mo ago
  You’re right and that’s intentional. Japanese companies don’t optimize for efficiently but for longevity. Sometimes those things go hand in hand. Sometimes they don’t.
- AlotOfReading 5mo ago
  I've worked for an American megacorp and the branch office of a Japanese company. The Japanese company felt a lot more humane on balance, though it doesn't express as well when I write it. The Japanese company had some rituals were a bit weird, but harmless/charmingly quaint like mandatory volunteer days, keeping a copy of the founder's precepts on my desk for executive walkthroughs. They also had some bad tendencies, like praising employees for being there at 6AM/8PM. If something didn't work, they'd give it a bit of runway to see if it could pull through before cutting back. When there were layoffs, it was the whole division failing (each division competed with the others). It's hard to imagine what kind of political statements would have been offensive to that employer, it was just a neutral job. Really, the worst part was subpar compensation (and I still felt spoiled compared to Japanese coworkers). My next job was at an American megacorp. The executives would give a holiday speech about "social responsibility" and how well we were doing, then layoff a factory. The employer was constantly involving themselves with US national politics, but employees were expected to refrain from having political opinions of their own.
  - throwaway2037 5mo ago
    Let me summarise your post: Pro-corporation, anti-employee.
    - AlotOfReading 5mo ago
coliveira 5mo ago
Nothing of this is particular to Japan, it's only the way it manifests in Japan that is adapted to its rich culture. Zombie corporations, corporations with ties to the government, family owned companies, monopolies, cronyism, all of this has been a staple of Western capitalism for centuries.
Glyptodon 5mo ago
I think I've seen the odd HN post about Mondragon that does portray it positively. Though I'm not sure I've seen one in at least several years.
ryukoposting 5mo ago
I'll preface this by saying there are lots of other factors at play, but here's an interesting one I can speak to personally: Car culture. We're a very car-centric society, and the Japanese auto makers have been a part everyday life to 3 full generations of Americans now. Even most Baby Boomers are too young to remember a world without Honda or Toyota. Across all age groups, a lot more Americans grew up with a fondness for their family's Toyota than their family's Hyundai. I grew up in middle America. Both my grandfathers were "GM Men" if you will. Partly by vocation, partly by culture. On both sides of my family, every car was either a Chevy or a Buick. When my folks bought a Honda in 2007, it was treated like a scandal. But yknow what? Now one of my cousins has a Hyundai, and nobody batted an eye. Things are changing, even for the "raise hell praise Dale" crowd. Japan's car makers, and their other industrials have a 40-year head start on embedding themselves in the American zeitgeist. Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Yamaha, they've all been here a really long time. They're loved because they're familiar. That's a bias, and I think that bias colors the way we talk about east Asian businesses more broadly.
- throwaway2037 5mo ago
  > We're a very car-centric society, and the Japanese auto makers have been a part everyday life to 3 full generations of Americans now. I assume "we" are Americans. I keep writing this over and over again on HN: There are NO highly developed non-micro states that are not car centric outside of major cities. Yes, literally, Japan, outside of a few large cities, is incredibly car centric. Sure, the cars are small and cute, but it is defintely car centric! > Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Yamaha, they've all been here a really long time. They came for a single reason: To avoid import tariffs. Please stop romanticising this for any other reason.
  - sofixa 5mo ago
    > There are NO highly developed non-micro states that are not car centric outside of major cities. That's an argument. Lack of density means that public transportation is hard to have enough scale. But the US is uniquely bad at both density but also lack of transportation options. In countries like the UK and France (just because I'm familiar with them, I'm not claiming they're the only ones or it's something unique to them) even small towns have a regular bus or train connection to elsewhere. Might not be the best frequency, but it's there. In the US even multi hundred thousand people cities have literally nothing other than cars as an option. So there are layers of car centricity. And considering most people live in cities, in countries like most of the developed world, the majority of the population has the option of at least decent transit. You know which countries are the exception.
SilasX 5mo ago
>This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is that this system is heavily driven by Japan's unique, subtle classism. It's a highly collectivist society with strict age-based milestones and immense pressure to secure traditional employment. In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing. Related: In most of the world, carmakers separate out a luxury brand from their other products: Honda with Acura, Toyota with Lexus, etc. In Japan, they don't. The explanation I usually get is that the culture primarily associates luxury with "being attached to the big-name corporation". So you don't really improve on that by introducing another smaller brand, even one you build up as luxury. See also the patio11 comment: >>My salary was $30k, but there is some tangible value in having a pocket full of business cards which practically read "Attention, person who has just been handed this card: give the bearer whatever he wants. We're good for it. If you don't, we will remember." That status is very much not the same as the one you get if you combine two part-time jobs into the same level of income. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8576008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8576008
- QuercusMax 5mo ago
  Are you saying that in Japan they sell Acura as Honda, and Lexus as Toyota?
  - tristor 5mo ago
    Lexus didn't enter the Japanese market as a brand until 2005, prior to that all Lexus models well sold under the Toyota moniker in the Japanese market. I'm not sure about Acura, but the GP's assertion is largely correct in its directionality.
    - tomwheeler 5mo ago
      I can confirm this is true for Acura. I owned an Acura Legend and the same car was sold in Japan (well, the right-hand drive version) as the Honda Legend. I had seen pictures of them online in the 90s, but happened to see a Honda Legend in person when I was in Tokyo some years later.
alephnerd 5mo ago
> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN Most HNers tend to be in their mid-30s to 50s so a lot of Japan-philia does appear to stem from an older mental image from the 1990s to 2010s. > This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is that this system is heavily driven by Japan's unique, subtle classism. It's a highly collectivist society with strict age-based milestones and immense pressure to secure traditional employment. In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing... The Japanese Keiretsu and later Trust Bank model is the norm in South Korea, Taiwan, China, and other Asian countries as well due to a mix of colonial, financial, and policymaking ties.
- dfedbeef 5mo ago
  Can you expand on what's new post 2010?
  - alephnerd 5mo ago
    1. Japan has become much "chiller" from a work culture perspective, with hours worked being comparable to those of the UK and Ireland [0] thanks to regulatory changes in the 2010s. 2. While conglomerates remain prominent, a new generation of large Western-style employers like Rakuten, Mercari, LY, SoftBank, etc have arisen and operate with American-style (and -educated) management, and the stereotypical "salaryman" lifestyle is on it's last legs. 3. Japan has quietly become an immigration driven society. A major reason behind the rise of Takechi's faction in the LDP as well as Sanseito is because of the post-2019 immigration boom [1]. Going from less that 1% overseas born residents to around 4% in roughly 5 years was a massive shift socially and impacted both blue and white collar employment in Japan. 4. Japan has culturally shifted to be accepting of an offensive military posture. You see this shift in Japanese media (eg. SnK, Nippon Sangoku) as well as Japanese foreign policy [2]. A more muscular Japan with a chip on their back is arising. 5. Younger Japanese are more open to calling out tourists and Westerners when they do weird or weeb s#it or treat Japan as their own Disneyland. They now treat Westerners the same way they treat other non-Japanese people now. The mindset shift I've noticed is an "us" (which now includes Koreans and Taiwanese) versus "them" which now includes everyone else. ---- Ironically, I think contemporary South Korea is closer to the image that HNers have of Japan versus Japan today. [0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html [1] - https://www.cw.com.tw/article/5136468 https://www.cw.com.tw/article/5136468 [2] - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/japan/return-japanese-hard-power https://www.foreignaffairs.com/japan/return-japanese-hard-po...
busterarm 5mo ago
[flagged]
- bobthepanda 5mo ago
  I think more so the issue with the union rhetoric is that it’s all or nothing. Yes there are bad unions. But also, collective bargaining can form a safety net, and there isn’t much of an alternative when things go south in an industry.
  - busterarm 5mo ago
    I agree. But I'm drawing the parallel between situations where people like a certain work culture that they have never experienced because it conforms to their larger worldview. It's mostly projection and doesn't meet with reality. There's a lot that I like about aspects of Japanese work culture but I'm sure that I would find it stifling.
- djeastm 5mo ago
  I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. Are we talking mob association? Arm-breaking thugs?
  - busterarm 5mo ago
    What is this, the 1970s? No, far more basic negligence and corruption. Negotiating deliberately bad contracts and collecting bribes. Diverting hours and cushy roles to union reps and their personal friends. Overwhelmingly siding with management against employees (which is what you think they're going to be there NOT to do). The kind of day to day petty shit that over time makes your job intolerable. Oh and that one time in the retail baker's union (BCTGM) when they defended and successfully reinstated an employee who was terminated for _literally urinating in the cake batter every day for months and feeding it to people_ because it wasn't explicitly stated in the contract that they could use video evidence to terminate people. If your union is protecting people who commit literal fucking crimes and dangers to public health, no, just fuck you and your union.
deaux 5mo ago
> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? I'd be pleasantly surprised, very impressed and it would make me reach out to have an offline chat. Not exaggerating.
pstuart 5mo ago
This is the first I've heard of the Mondragon cooperatives, and I quick peak makes me want to learn more about them -- I'm enamored with the idea for coops.
booleandilemma 5mo ago
In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing. This is absolutely true in the US as well, by the way. People will treat you differently if you work for a FAANG company. People take a lot of pride in telling others they work for one. And we even have a word for someone who used to work for Google, for instance.
- neutronicus 5mo ago
  Yeah, a friend of mine from college works for Waymo (Google-adjacent) and I've overheard wives of local friends bugging their husbands to try and work him for an in.
wotsdat 5mo ago
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andrewmutz 5mo ago
Japanese and American companies have different purposes. In Japan the corporation primarily provides stable income and employment for society, and secondarily returns on capital invested. In America, corporations primarily provide returns on capital invested and secondarily provide stable income and employment. This shows up in the data too. Japanese corporations are less likely to go out of business but provide worse investment returns. American corporations provide better investment returns, but the citizens have to deal with layoffs. Most citizens would prefer stability to growth, but I think the tradeoff has a lot of downstream consequences.
- therealdrag0 5mo ago
  Stability is preferred to growth in the moment, but in retrospect and in comparison to others most people don’t want to give up what they have and go back in time.
  - jimbokun 5mo ago
    And arguably growth could lead to better overall stability in the long run, as people find employment in new companies at higher wages over time with lower overall unemployment.
  - jjmarr 5mo ago
    > but in retrospect and in comparison to others most people don’t want to give up what they have and go back in time. And in the long-term, people start fleeing the "stable" countries for already-grown ones.
- rhdndndn 5mo ago
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- johnnyanmac 5mo ago
  Stable income and employment feels like a distant 4th nowadays. Nothing feels stable.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
qurren 5mo ago
> how Westerners idealize Japan Westerners are taught by the media and education to idealize Japan and hate China almost everywhere. They present cherry-picked aspects of both countries that make China look bad and Japan look good. In reality every country has its good and bad aspects. This is just part of the propaganda machine and what politicians want you to believe, in an effort to align their populations to be supportive of their foreign policy and military motives. That ultimately trickles down to things like this. When people come to HN, or any place, with rose-colored glasses of Japan, they will seek confirmations of that rose color everywhere.
- wk_end 5mo ago
  I really don't really think there's much political or propaganda interest in getting Westerners to idealize Japan, at this point. Now back in the 80s? Back in the 80s, despite being aligned with the West, they were perceived a lot like China is today. Everyone was scared that they were going to start eating the West's lunch and various negative stereotypes and exaggerations started to bubble up: it was a futuristic land, but a futuristic land of suicides, with little drone-like salarymen crammed into little shoebox apartments the size of a Western bathroom, working 20 hour days. Between the Plaza Accords and the bubble bursting and decade after decade of Lost Decades, the Japanese threat was successfully neutralized. I think Cool Japan is mostly something they've earned for themselves, frankly.
  - blowscum 5mo ago
    > it was a futuristic land, but a futuristic land of suicides, with little drone-like salarymen crammed into little shoebox apartments the size of a Western bathroom, working 20 hour days. So basically just what the west is becoming?
    - user____name 5mo ago
      The US under trillionare leadership, certainly.
    - wk_end 5mo ago
usagisushi 5mo ago
I pretty much agree. While any semblance of a "horizontal" dynamic in Japanese software development was perhaps realized in embedded systems around 40 years ago (e.g., rice cookers with fuzzy logic, or, in a different sense of _lateral_, Gunpei Yokoi’s famous philosophy of "Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology"), software has traditionally been undervalued in Japan. This historical neglect has ultimately contributed to the decline of our consumer electronics industry. (Though personally, I still don’t see why a toaster or a fridge needs to be connected to the internet.) IMO, the tight-knit division of labor between Toyota and its subcontractors is a slightly different story from the broad diversification within a single corporation. While the latter was historically bolstered by strong industry-academia ties (often driven by university cliques), we rarely see this kind of broad diversification happening in recent years. That said, Japan's traditional "membership-based" employment system, combined with a cultural reluctance to shut down unprofitable business units, is likely what has allowed this diversification to persist for so long. In any case, Japanese companies are currently struggling with the friction between their traditional corporate culture and the superficial adoption of Western concepts like DX, Agile, meritocracy, job-based employment, and a startup-centric mindset. I suspect Korea might be facing similar structural clashes, though perhaps you are adapting at a much faster pace.
- jdw64 5mo ago
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tschwimmer 5mo ago
Mondragon gets glazed on HN frequently. Just search and you’ll find many examples.
lumost 5mo ago
In my opinion, this comes from the 70s and 80s where there was very real concern that Japan was going to surpass the US economically. Many companies in the US attempted to adopt Japanese methods in manufacturing and other areas, media then inherited further Japanisms. There is also an historic backdrop of westerners viewing Japan as a mysterious civilization on the far side of the globe dating back to the 1500s.
deleted 5mo ago
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niyikiza 5mo ago
Agree with the meta point. I worked in Korea and Japan and loved the culture but when I moved to the west I was surprised to see how people over here fantasize about their (imo inefficient) corporate cultures. This particular article was decently nuanced though.
jmyeet 5mo ago
I've thought a lot about (and I don't mean this in a derogatory way) the weebu phenomenon. I remember encountering it first in college when I met people who were in an anime club. It wasn't for me but my philosophy generally is "let people enjoy things". I will say that it often goes beyond "idealizing". I'd use the word "fetishizing". I've wondered how much of this stems from being disaffected by the modern (particularly Western) world. I worked with an ethnically Chinese guy who was a massive weebu and that always struck me as odd given the Japan-China history. Japan has always rubbed me the wrong way: misogyny, racism and denial about Japanese war crimes in WW2 mostly. Also the salaryman work culture. I see videos from Japanese workers and life honestly looks miserable. It's also a country that is dying. The samurais, ninjas, Ronin, shoguns, etc are cool though. Japanese history is fascinating. My hot take here is that China is actually what people idealize Japan to be. China has the most competent government in the world and it's not even close. It's not problem-free. Nowhere is. But the transformation in the lives of ordinary Chinese people over the last few decades is unbelievable. China pulled ~800 million people out of extreme poverty. It could be worse than Japan too. I think South Korea is that. As a non-Korean from the outside looking in, South Korea looks like a dystopian run by aristocratic (chaebol) families where the birth rate is the lowest in the world and it's in fact so low that if nothing changes, South Korea simply won't exist in 3 generations.
- jdw64 5mo ago
  Are you angling for an 'Honorary Korean' title? You know too much about Korea
  - jmyeet 5mo ago
    My form of autism is going on deep dives into political and history topics and I'm not gonna lie, I've watched a super-long video essays on the 4B movement, neo-confucianism and the chaebols. This [1] I think was one of them. I've never been to South Korea. I'd like to go to Seoul. For me though, South Korea is a cautionary tale in what happens to a country when a handful of families get to control all the wealth, all the good jobs, all the good university places and so on while the working class gets squeezed ever more. There are cultural issues here too that are distinctly Korean, namely that women are expected to have a demanding job AND have children, look after those children and take care of the house (traditionally). [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74
ozim 5mo ago
I think you need to step back and look at why those people write such things. There are people who romanticize Japan/Asia because they never were there and it is not attainable for them. There are people who romanticize Japan/Asia because they have direct business interests to do so like selling dreams to the first group.
LZ_Khan 5mo ago
Yes, objectively these characteristics of Japanese corporations seem like inefficiencies in the "free market". Lack of mobility across companies (no price discovery on wages), lack of specialization (no focus), age based hierarchy (anti-meritocratic). None of these sound good for a well-tuned system. I suspect much of Japan's stagnation is due to this system.
deleted 5mo ago
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dfabulich 5mo ago
What article were you reading? This article isn't idealizing Japanese companies, and specifically discusses the drawbacks of the Japanese approach, including zombie companies. The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages. Ironically, you've proved a deeper point about how amusing HN is: we all tend to project our fantasies onto the articles we're discussing, even if we didn't fully read or understand the article.
- Trasmatta 5mo ago
  Thank you, I was confused reading the comment above, because the article pretty clearly laid out the benefits and drawbacks of the system. I didn't see any idealizing.
- neosat 5mo ago
  Exactly, I was confused too. The authors clearly mention what the parent comment talks about, albeit towards the end of the article, that the 'J' bundle meant that these firms were not set up for success once they 'caught up' and were required to innovate not just process but from the ground up to envision new categories (e.g. iPhone).
- jdw64 5mo ago
  I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true.[1] In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal. If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand. >"The andon method is really the J-mode in miniature. Information flows laterally, authority to act is widely distributed, and the people closest to the problems are the ones who fix it." Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines? Are you sure you haven't completely confused 'horizotally' with 'top-down' [1] https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.html https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.h... P.S. The link I provided is an official directive from the Japan Fair Trade Commission (JFTC) explicitly warning large corporations to stop ruthlessly suppressing their subcontractors' labor costs.
groundzeros2015 5mo ago
> romanticizing the Mondragon Are they successful? Japanese culture reflects certain western attitudes which make it stand out. Do I detect resentment?
- wklauss 5mo ago
  > Are they successful? I'd say so. Not on all the branches of the cooperative, but it generates over €11 billion in annual revenue and employs more than 70,000 people with a very stable business. It might be a bit tricky to gauge success when the rewards and incentives aren’t quite the same as in your typical capitalist company, though.
  - groundzeros2015 5mo ago
    Looks interesting! I would like to learn more
lern_too_spel 5mo ago
The author discusses the zombie problem. I don't think the author is romanticizing this system. Instead, he is explaining why this system exists (as a result of WW2-era industrial reforms that were kept in place instead of discarded), and why that system naturally leads to a certain set of outcomes. West Germany also had to rapidly catch up after WW2 to suit America's Cold War purposes, and there are some similarities to J-firm structure there, but I'd be interested to hear the author's take on why it ended up somewhere else.
wklauss 5mo ago
> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. In his science fiction novels, Kim Stanley Robinson frequently incorporates the Mondragon economic model to explore post-capitalist, worker-owned, and cooperative societies. I'd say KSR is a decently well-known S/F writer, so at least some westerners (and I'd assume many in this site) have already some idea of it. But I'd say it's true that it's easy to romanticize these kinds of singular situations and brush over the problems they might have.
spkm 5mo ago
I'm a german software developer working for a japanese corporation in a german subsidiary. I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Especially the exhausting chain of approvals and also the unwillingness to make quick/tough decisions feels like walking through molasses at times. However, there is also an upside to this. I can actually confirm that they take quality control very serious, probably due to the losing face cultural thing if the product fails the customer and therefore rarely do quick last minute changes or crunch, because it degrades quality.
- sersi 5mo ago
  I worked for a software consulting company in Japan, we had a contract with a big well known company. The contract gave a precise date for the delivery with huge fines if we delivered late but there was also a long bug fixing period after the initial delivery. So we had overtime for 2 months working from 10am to 4am just so that we could deliver the "feature complete" software. If any bugs were found they were classified as either blockers (feature cannot be shown without) or scheduled to be fixed after delivery. My boss knew it was stupid, he didn't like it but it was the standard contract from that big Japanese company and we were small and they weren't going to change that.
- nradov 5mo ago
  That's a very narrow viewpoint. From the customer perspective, defect rate is only one component of the product quality vector.
- platevoltage 5mo ago
  As a fan of Nintendo (the games, not the company of course), this definitely checks out. There are exceptions, but you rarely see a new Zelda game release in the state you can expect from Bethesda.
esseph 5mo ago
> how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? Have never heard about it until now, but just looking through it, sounds great!
59percentmore 5mo ago
>While true for a few, the flip side is that it created a massive 'zombie company' problem—a heavily discussed issue in Korea and Japan that the West seems largely blind to. Oh, we're getting there. It's just a bit fringe right now, but Meta's $90 billion loss on VR and *gestures at various aspects of the Gamestop situation" and a few other incidents have people asking questions that are uncomfortable for the passive investmend fund crowd. Forget zombie companies; by many measures, America has a zombie economy.
- nradov 5mo ago
  Really? How much has that hurt Meta shareholder returns? Are most active fund managers delivering better results than passive index funds?
  - gizajob 5mo ago
    It’s that passive investing has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because regardless of the company situation the funds have to buy the shares at any price, which has made it simpler for incumbents to grow and stay growing while burning profitability to the ground. Hence why there’s been a recent change to the rules on the Nasdaq so SpaceX/OpenAI/Anthropic can be included on the indices 15 days after IPO rather than having three months of price discovery on the markets first before index funds start having to buy huge amounts of their shares and keeping their (likely imaginary) price afloat. It’s a huge structural flaw in the markets right now, yet it seems a flaw that isn’t really going to break anything which is weird in itself. I can’t help but feel that Wall Street is going to find the right place to kick at some point in order to have the whole house of cards come tumbling down for a while so they can buy cheap and negate/steal years of contributions from people buying index funds. Not sure how or when but I’m sure they’re working on it.
    - foobar10000 5mo ago
      Well - there is a giant push to allow non-qualified investors to invest their 401k (and roth and whatever) into the private equities market - pre-IPO companies and such. I can't shake the feeling of a grand fleecing incoming - and honestly, most big financial companies I know are against it because the blowback of inevitably bankrupting the firefighters&nurses pension fund will be congressional hearings and piercings of corporate veils. Seems like the feds are pushing for it - for reasons I cannot fathom.
hammock 5mo ago
It’s Stockholm syndrome. Japan really spanked the highly established U.S. auto and electronics industries in the 70s, and many people now look to kaizen, Kanban, etc as serious cope.
BobaFloutist 5mo ago
I think one thing that's happening is that they're good at things we're frustratingly bad at, and bad at things we don't even realize we're good at, so they get used as an example an awful lot.
hkt 5mo ago
As a westerner (UK) I massively idealise Mondragon and wouldn't find it weird if anyone else did. Cooperatives are fascinating and the question of workplace democracy needs more consideration.
TacticalCoder 5mo ago
> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN I think HN'er are smart enough to not idealize everything about Japan. For example you can be in awe about how clean and safe the country is and how precisely on time all subways train are without idealizing toilet that stream water up your arse.
- the_af 5mo ago
  > without idealizing toilet that stream water up your arse. So without idealizing the one Japanese thing that is inarguably good?
stein1946 5mo ago
> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan Replace 'Westerners' with Americans and you are spot on. I have never met any European that glorifies any part of Japan (I'd see Asia as a whole), most of them will tell you how the tall buildings make them feel little and how the society is beyond oppressive. Whatever meritocracy exists in capitalism is ironed out by those rigid hierarchies. I am not sure what is appealing about Japan, Korea or any of these parts of the world, to me they are full of plastic, sugar and late stage capitalism that makes the Americans look as socialists. I do strongly suspect that a certain type of male likes these places for reasons I cannot even hold in my mind for more than a few seconds.
- the_af 5mo ago
  > I have never met any European that glorifies any part of Japan Didn't France use to be quite Japano-phile? (At least for movies and anime/manga, but also cuisine). Or is this outdated knowledge now?
belviewreview 5mo ago
The article mentions software as an area where the Japanese don't excell doesn't work.
fhe 5mo ago
for what it's worth, back when i was in b-schoo, the predominant theory for the existence of large, diversified Asian conglomerates (Japanese keiretsu is a prime example, but it's not unique to Japan. Similar entities exist in S.Korea and Thailand, among other places) is the friction of starting and doing businesses in these countries. Startups there have such a hard time getting funded and landing clients, that the financing aspect alone give the conglomerates enough of an advantage to edge out startups, despite the inefficiencies typical of large organizations (and in this the Japanese corporate giants are no better than IBM or GE). this theory is typically mentioned when introducing the Theory of the Firm, i.e. why do companies exist at all? why not everyone just freelances, and when you need a marketing/finance/legal/coding person, you just contract one on the free market? the idea is that there are always frictions when doing business with someone new (is this person good? trust worthy? how do i find out?), and how much friction there is determines how big the firm will grow (to incorporate functions in-house, or expand to other industries). in a perfect frictionless economy, it could indeed be true that business transactions all happen at the smallest unit, i.e. the individual. at the other extreme, there would just be one firm that coordinates all economic activities. all real world economies sit some where in between.
pjjpo 5mo ago
Not about the article but I have the exact opposite impression of HN treatment of Japan. It's largely expats complaining about living in Japan or Westerners comparing Japanese values to their own and always concluding the former is inferior, not just different. It feels like a modern form of imperialism to me. I'm surprised you get a positive impression (yes this particular article is an exception though).
socalgal2 5mo ago
Almost nothing in this aritcle matches the reality of my experience in Japan. Horizontal culture? In in my experience. Everything you do requires approval in triplicate. Do the wrong thing at a company and you'll get screamed at by the person who feels their job is under threat from you trying to step out of your precribed role. There's absolutely no such thing as "generalist employees" at any Japanese company I know of. I have no idea where the author got this idea.
CarlitosHighway 5mo ago
Thank you for this post. I am a "Westener" who lived in Japan for 6 years. Boy, was that eye-opening in terms of "the map and the territory". Basically nothing is what it seems to be - and unfortunately the positive things mostly turn out to be nationalism-motivated make-believe, wishful thinking, or only made possible by extremely lax attitudes to amassing public debt (any country could make the trains run on time if they were ready sell their future for it). Western Japanophiles, especially from the US, and even if they speak the language and have lived there, are mostly ignorant and their idea of Japan is a full phantasy.
- gizajob 5mo ago
  The UK is in the process of spending £100billion of public debt to build a “high speed” train line to connect the northern cities to London. Except it’s been shortened in length to not connect those cities and will instead run only to Birmingham less than 200km away, keeps getting reduced in speed, and can probably be guaranteed not to run on time. So for me it seems like any county could make the trains run with infinite money, but in the country which invented the train we still can’t.
OJFord 5mo ago
I think it's the density of Californians, and that Japanese culture, food, second language etc. is popular there probably not least due to their relative proximity. If HN was Brit-dominated, while less romanticised perhaps we probably would seem oddly fascinated with say France, to our minority members elsewhere.
- deleted 5mo ago
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Sharon617 5mo ago
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greazy 5mo ago
Besides your point but I learned about Mondragon on hacker news! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060
huflungdung 5mo ago
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jatins 5mo ago
> In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing Where does it not? As in which countries are not like this?
- astrange 5mo ago
  The US doesn't. "Social standing" in this case means if your girlfriend's parents will let you marry her. Not, like, who likes your LinkedIn posts.
- parineum 5mo ago
  I don't know where most of my friends work and I barely understood what my wife does when we started dating.
amfern 5mo ago
Working in japanese software company with Toyota. It's not at all like in the article, it's not horizontal, and very much hierchcal and rigid. And it can be seen in japanese software, it looks like it was designed from request sheet without actually understanding why. It's often nonsensical and extremely convoluted. Most of the good japanese software is actually developed in the west by subcontractors. For example Sony games
AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
I’m not sure what you’re on about Mondragon is the ideal organization I’ve been promoting it and its organizational structure for a decade on this website and I’m one of the oldest members on HN
michaelt 5mo ago
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pibaker 5mo ago
I have noticed that when Japanese megacorps get brought up on the internet, people will admire how cool it is for a company to make so many things. But when a Korean megacorp who makes the same variety of stuffs get brought up, it's all about how evil and oppressive the late stage capitalism chaebols are. There is definitely a double standard when it comes to Japan.
petterroea 5mo ago
The fact that Samsung is kind of famous for just entering new industries left and right, and continuing to produce mediocre products while gaining enough experience to become industry leaders comes to mind. I feel like the blog post could apply to many countries
zrn900 5mo ago
> legacy Waterfall model Huh? I thought Agile was dead (it is) and we were going back to waterfall in the West already...

by jdw64 5mo ago

wileydragonfly 5mo ago

“Weeabo crap” was also my take on the article.

showerst 5mo ago

I didn't feel like this article necessarily idolized it; the author seemed pretty even-handed about strengths and weaknesses. The interesting question in all of these kinds of things is "are there ideas we can take to gain the strengths of other systems or patch the weaknesses in ours?". Looking at Japan specifically, I think I speak for most westerners in saying that if we could get a little more stability and less financial-quarter-driven behavior without taking the whole kit of lifetime employment and zombie companies, that would be a good thing. The author points out just how bundled that is, so it's a tough nut to crack. One model that does give us that is the 'Untouchable visionary CEO' of Jobs and Musk, but I think the popularity of that approach is also limited, partially because of all the not so visionary CEOs trying to be Jobs, and partially because working for those guys is terrible. They inevitably seem to become tyrants. Most Americans I know are familiar with the unending work culture of Japanese white collar workers (if only a parody version of it), and want no part of it.

jimbokun 5mo ago
Interestingly this article argues very strongly that you cannot have some of those things without taking all of them. That the various aspects of corporate culture reinforce each other and make performance worse if taken piecemeal.
fyrn_ 5mo ago
Although from the perspective of most of the world, the US is also very work oriented. We also work some of the longest hours
- kevmo314 5mo ago
  The American work week has been progressively shortening over the years: https://www.gallup.com/workplace/658235/why-americans-working-less.aspx https://www.gallup.com/workplace/658235/why-americans-workin... Americans including myself love saying we’re busy though.
  - fyrn_ 5mo ago
    > Thinking about your primary job: On average, how many hours do you work per week? Not really sure they are measuring what they think they are measuring. This being more pronounced amongst young people may be because working long is being seen as less and less cool, as there has been a major vibe shift among young workers regarding their relationships with employers. Doesn't necessarily mean they are actually working less, might mean they don't want to admit it. Revealed concrete hours would be much more trustworthy

reedf1 5mo ago

Did you read it? I can see how you can come to this conclusion devoid of context. This is actually a topical article - mainly because it is a surprise to many that a toilet company could be one of the biggest winners in the AI pick-and-shovel trade. These names have just recently been hoisted into the spotlight. It's not really a romanization but an explanation of why.

jodacola 5mo ago

> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. Quite the opposite - for me, anyway. FWIW, as a Westerner, I find the Mondragon Corporation to be fascinating and something I've read a lot about because there's no way we've figured out the ideal sort of setup for a business (or government, or any sort of human organization, given appropriate context) in the year 2026. We have a lot to learn, and while "different" doesn't always mean "better," I strongly believe being exposed to "different" is necessary for us to devise novel approaches to human organization.

amunozo 5mo ago
Same thing, being Spanish the Basque Cooperatives movement is fascinating. Do you have any recommended read about it?
- gigatree 5mo ago
  The most recent video I could find about this was from like 7 years ago, very weird
  - oceanhaiyang 5mo ago
    Maybe try a book instead of YouTube. Not weird as it probably isn’t something that would get clicks
    - shimman 5mo ago
      Any particular books you'd recommend?
    - gigatree 5mo ago
      Disagree. Many less interesting things than a large functioning modern collective get millions of views.
- lo_zamoyski 5mo ago

SubiculumCode 5mo ago

Did you read the entire article? There is a whole section on where western model excels. The article is not about romanticizing Japanese culture, but to tell a story about how and why Japanese and American firms tend to differ. I am sure that it paints in overly broad strokes at times, but I really did not get the impression of idolization, idealism, or even oriental mysticism.

jdw64 5mo ago
I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true. In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal. If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand.
- mbesto 5mo ago
  > is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true. > In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. Well that's just like your opinion...man. I think you're both singularly wrong. Trying to attribute a single factor to a highly complex system is a fool's errand. If your conclusion is correct "ruthless squeezing of subcontractors" are there other cultures whether there is true and the country has been successful in precision parts? Otherwise, it's pretty impossible to conclude the causality.
  - 5mo ago

BJones12 5mo ago

> how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? HN has had posts romanticizing them, maybe check those https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32622140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32622140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 > it created a massive 'zombie company' problem—a heavily discussed issue in Korea and Japan that the West seems largely blind to Zombie companies in the west are mentioned as a low/ZIRP phenomena. But the west shouldn't have as big an issue with those because companies, when less diversified, get killed off more often by interest rate hikes.

bobthepanda 5mo ago
Zombie companies exist in Europe; at least part of the euro crisis was exacerbated by the continuing cascade of bankruptcies making other banks insolvent. The EU’s crisis schemes like furloughing employees en masse dull the pain but also do prolong some companies’ lives. The US historically has had much more brutal impacts but quicker recoveries.
jim33442 5mo ago
And the US ZIRP zombie companies die at some point even without rate hikes

mhluongo 5mo ago

> if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? Speaking for myself, I'd find that very interesting! I just stumbled over an article about it a few days ago, and don't think it's weird that different parts of the world would be interested in a regional business phenomenon.

MetaWhirledPeas 5mo ago

As someone who finds Japanese corporate culture interesting or even desirable in some ways, it definitely doesn't seem like the most efficient way to run a company. And I'm sure there are plenty of cultural aspects that would not be my cup of tea.

koliber 5mo ago
You’re right and that’s intentional. Japanese companies don’t optimize for efficiently but for longevity. Sometimes those things go hand in hand. Sometimes they don’t.
AlotOfReading 5mo ago
I've worked for an American megacorp and the branch office of a Japanese company. The Japanese company felt a lot more humane on balance, though it doesn't express as well when I write it. The Japanese company had some rituals were a bit weird, but harmless/charmingly quaint like mandatory volunteer days, keeping a copy of the founder's precepts on my desk for executive walkthroughs. They also had some bad tendencies, like praising employees for being there at 6AM/8PM. If something didn't work, they'd give it a bit of runway to see if it could pull through before cutting back. When there were layoffs, it was the whole division failing (each division competed with the others). It's hard to imagine what kind of political statements would have been offensive to that employer, it was just a neutral job. Really, the worst part was subpar compensation (and I still felt spoiled compared to Japanese coworkers). My next job was at an American megacorp. The executives would give a holiday speech about "social responsibility" and how well we were doing, then layoff a factory. The employer was constantly involving themselves with US national politics, but employees were expected to refrain from having political opinions of their own.
- throwaway2037 5mo ago
  Let me summarise your post: Pro-corporation, anti-employee.
  - AlotOfReading 5mo ago

coliveira 5mo ago

Nothing of this is particular to Japan, it's only the way it manifests in Japan that is adapted to its rich culture. Zombie corporations, corporations with ties to the government, family owned companies, monopolies, cronyism, all of this has been a staple of Western capitalism for centuries.

Glyptodon 5mo ago

I think I've seen the odd HN post about Mondragon that does portray it positively. Though I'm not sure I've seen one in at least several years.

ryukoposting 5mo ago

I'll preface this by saying there are lots of other factors at play, but here's an interesting one I can speak to personally: Car culture. We're a very car-centric society, and the Japanese auto makers have been a part everyday life to 3 full generations of Americans now. Even most Baby Boomers are too young to remember a world without Honda or Toyota. Across all age groups, a lot more Americans grew up with a fondness for their family's Toyota than their family's Hyundai. I grew up in middle America. Both my grandfathers were "GM Men" if you will. Partly by vocation, partly by culture. On both sides of my family, every car was either a Chevy or a Buick. When my folks bought a Honda in 2007, it was treated like a scandal. But yknow what? Now one of my cousins has a Hyundai, and nobody batted an eye. Things are changing, even for the "raise hell praise Dale" crowd. Japan's car makers, and their other industrials have a 40-year head start on embedding themselves in the American zeitgeist. Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Yamaha, they've all been here a really long time. They're loved because they're familiar. That's a bias, and I think that bias colors the way we talk about east Asian businesses more broadly.

throwaway2037 5mo ago
> We're a very car-centric society, and the Japanese auto makers have been a part everyday life to 3 full generations of Americans now. I assume "we" are Americans. I keep writing this over and over again on HN: There are NO highly developed non-micro states that are not car centric outside of major cities. Yes, literally, Japan, outside of a few large cities, is incredibly car centric. Sure, the cars are small and cute, but it is defintely car centric! > Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Yamaha, they've all been here a really long time. They came for a single reason: To avoid import tariffs. Please stop romanticising this for any other reason.
- sofixa 5mo ago
  > There are NO highly developed non-micro states that are not car centric outside of major cities. That's an argument. Lack of density means that public transportation is hard to have enough scale. But the US is uniquely bad at both density but also lack of transportation options. In countries like the UK and France (just because I'm familiar with them, I'm not claiming they're the only ones or it's something unique to them) even small towns have a regular bus or train connection to elsewhere. Might not be the best frequency, but it's there. In the US even multi hundred thousand people cities have literally nothing other than cars as an option. So there are layers of car centricity. And considering most people live in cities, in countries like most of the developed world, the majority of the population has the option of at least decent transit. You know which countries are the exception.

SilasX 5mo ago

>This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is that this system is heavily driven by Japan's unique, subtle classism. It's a highly collectivist society with strict age-based milestones and immense pressure to secure traditional employment. In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing. Related: In most of the world, carmakers separate out a luxury brand from their other products: Honda with Acura, Toyota with Lexus, etc. In Japan, they don't. The explanation I usually get is that the culture primarily associates luxury with "being attached to the big-name corporation". So you don't really improve on that by introducing another smaller brand, even one you build up as luxury. See also the patio11 comment: >>My salary was $30k, but there is some tangible value in having a pocket full of business cards which practically read "Attention, person who has just been handed this card: give the bearer whatever he wants. We're good for it. If you don't, we will remember." That status is very much not the same as the one you get if you combine two part-time jobs into the same level of income. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8576008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8576008

QuercusMax 5mo ago
Are you saying that in Japan they sell Acura as Honda, and Lexus as Toyota?
- tristor 5mo ago
  Lexus didn't enter the Japanese market as a brand until 2005, prior to that all Lexus models well sold under the Toyota moniker in the Japanese market. I'm not sure about Acura, but the GP's assertion is largely correct in its directionality.
  - tomwheeler 5mo ago
    I can confirm this is true for Acura. I owned an Acura Legend and the same car was sold in Japan (well, the right-hand drive version) as the Honda Legend. I had seen pictures of them online in the 90s, but happened to see a Honda Legend in person when I was in Tokyo some years later.

alephnerd 5mo ago

> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN Most HNers tend to be in their mid-30s to 50s so a lot of Japan-philia does appear to stem from an older mental image from the 1990s to 2010s. > This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is that this system is heavily driven by Japan's unique, subtle classism. It's a highly collectivist society with strict age-based milestones and immense pressure to secure traditional employment. In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing... The Japanese Keiretsu and later Trust Bank model is the norm in South Korea, Taiwan, China, and other Asian countries as well due to a mix of colonial, financial, and policymaking ties.

dfedbeef 5mo ago
Can you expand on what's new post 2010?
- alephnerd 5mo ago
  1. Japan has become much "chiller" from a work culture perspective, with hours worked being comparable to those of the UK and Ireland [0] thanks to regulatory changes in the 2010s. 2. While conglomerates remain prominent, a new generation of large Western-style employers like Rakuten, Mercari, LY, SoftBank, etc have arisen and operate with American-style (and -educated) management, and the stereotypical "salaryman" lifestyle is on it's last legs. 3. Japan has quietly become an immigration driven society. A major reason behind the rise of Takechi's faction in the LDP as well as Sanseito is because of the post-2019 immigration boom [1]. Going from less that 1% overseas born residents to around 4% in roughly 5 years was a massive shift socially and impacted both blue and white collar employment in Japan. 4. Japan has culturally shifted to be accepting of an offensive military posture. You see this shift in Japanese media (eg. SnK, Nippon Sangoku) as well as Japanese foreign policy [2]. A more muscular Japan with a chip on their back is arising. 5. Younger Japanese are more open to calling out tourists and Westerners when they do weird or weeb s#it or treat Japan as their own Disneyland. They now treat Westerners the same way they treat other non-Japanese people now. The mindset shift I've noticed is an "us" (which now includes Koreans and Taiwanese) versus "them" which now includes everyone else. ---- Ironically, I think contemporary South Korea is closer to the image that HNers have of Japan versus Japan today. [0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html [1] - https://www.cw.com.tw/article/5136468 https://www.cw.com.tw/article/5136468 [2] - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/japan/return-japanese-hard-power https://www.foreignaffairs.com/japan/return-japanese-hard-po...

busterarm 5mo ago

[flagged]

bobthepanda 5mo ago
I think more so the issue with the union rhetoric is that it’s all or nothing. Yes there are bad unions. But also, collective bargaining can form a safety net, and there isn’t much of an alternative when things go south in an industry.
- busterarm 5mo ago
  I agree. But I'm drawing the parallel between situations where people like a certain work culture that they have never experienced because it conforms to their larger worldview. It's mostly projection and doesn't meet with reality. There's a lot that I like about aspects of Japanese work culture but I'm sure that I would find it stifling.
djeastm 5mo ago
I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. Are we talking mob association? Arm-breaking thugs?
- busterarm 5mo ago
  What is this, the 1970s? No, far more basic negligence and corruption. Negotiating deliberately bad contracts and collecting bribes. Diverting hours and cushy roles to union reps and their personal friends. Overwhelmingly siding with management against employees (which is what you think they're going to be there NOT to do). The kind of day to day petty shit that over time makes your job intolerable. Oh and that one time in the retail baker's union (BCTGM) when they defended and successfully reinstated an employee who was terminated for _literally urinating in the cake batter every day for months and feeding it to people_ because it wasn't explicitly stated in the contract that they could use video evidence to terminate people. If your union is protecting people who commit literal fucking crimes and dangers to public health, no, just fuck you and your union.

deaux 5mo ago

> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? I'd be pleasantly surprised, very impressed and it would make me reach out to have an offline chat. Not exaggerating.

pstuart 5mo ago

This is the first I've heard of the Mondragon cooperatives, and I quick peak makes me want to learn more about them -- I'm enamored with the idea for coops.

booleandilemma 5mo ago

In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing. This is absolutely true in the US as well, by the way. People will treat you differently if you work for a FAANG company. People take a lot of pride in telling others they work for one. And we even have a word for someone who used to work for Google, for instance.

neutronicus 5mo ago
Yeah, a friend of mine from college works for Waymo (Google-adjacent) and I've overheard wives of local friends bugging their husbands to try and work him for an in.

wotsdat 5mo ago

[dead]

andrewmutz 5mo ago

Japanese and American companies have different purposes. In Japan the corporation primarily provides stable income and employment for society, and secondarily returns on capital invested. In America, corporations primarily provide returns on capital invested and secondarily provide stable income and employment. This shows up in the data too. Japanese corporations are less likely to go out of business but provide worse investment returns. American corporations provide better investment returns, but the citizens have to deal with layoffs. Most citizens would prefer stability to growth, but I think the tradeoff has a lot of downstream consequences.

therealdrag0 5mo ago
Stability is preferred to growth in the moment, but in retrospect and in comparison to others most people don’t want to give up what they have and go back in time.
- jimbokun 5mo ago
  And arguably growth could lead to better overall stability in the long run, as people find employment in new companies at higher wages over time with lower overall unemployment.
- jjmarr 5mo ago
  > but in retrospect and in comparison to others most people don’t want to give up what they have and go back in time. And in the long-term, people start fleeing the "stable" countries for already-grown ones.
rhdndndn 5mo ago
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johnnyanmac 5mo ago
Stable income and employment feels like a distant 4th nowadays. Nothing feels stable.
joe_mamba 5mo ago

qurren 5mo ago

> how Westerners idealize Japan Westerners are taught by the media and education to idealize Japan and hate China almost everywhere. They present cherry-picked aspects of both countries that make China look bad and Japan look good. In reality every country has its good and bad aspects. This is just part of the propaganda machine and what politicians want you to believe, in an effort to align their populations to be supportive of their foreign policy and military motives. That ultimately trickles down to things like this. When people come to HN, or any place, with rose-colored glasses of Japan, they will seek confirmations of that rose color everywhere.

wk_end 5mo ago
I really don't really think there's much political or propaganda interest in getting Westerners to idealize Japan, at this point. Now back in the 80s? Back in the 80s, despite being aligned with the West, they were perceived a lot like China is today. Everyone was scared that they were going to start eating the West's lunch and various negative stereotypes and exaggerations started to bubble up: it was a futuristic land, but a futuristic land of suicides, with little drone-like salarymen crammed into little shoebox apartments the size of a Western bathroom, working 20 hour days. Between the Plaza Accords and the bubble bursting and decade after decade of Lost Decades, the Japanese threat was successfully neutralized. I think Cool Japan is mostly something they've earned for themselves, frankly.
- blowscum 5mo ago
  > it was a futuristic land, but a futuristic land of suicides, with little drone-like salarymen crammed into little shoebox apartments the size of a Western bathroom, working 20 hour days. So basically just what the west is becoming?
  - user____name 5mo ago
    The US under trillionare leadership, certainly.
  - wk_end 5mo ago

usagisushi 5mo ago

I pretty much agree. While any semblance of a "horizontal" dynamic in Japanese software development was perhaps realized in embedded systems around 40 years ago (e.g., rice cookers with fuzzy logic, or, in a different sense of _lateral_, Gunpei Yokoi’s famous philosophy of "Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology"), software has traditionally been undervalued in Japan. This historical neglect has ultimately contributed to the decline of our consumer electronics industry. (Though personally, I still don’t see why a toaster or a fridge needs to be connected to the internet.) IMO, the tight-knit division of labor between Toyota and its subcontractors is a slightly different story from the broad diversification within a single corporation. While the latter was historically bolstered by strong industry-academia ties (often driven by university cliques), we rarely see this kind of broad diversification happening in recent years. That said, Japan's traditional "membership-based" employment system, combined with a cultural reluctance to shut down unprofitable business units, is likely what has allowed this diversification to persist for so long. In any case, Japanese companies are currently struggling with the friction between their traditional corporate culture and the superficial adoption of Western concepts like DX, Agile, meritocracy, job-based employment, and a startup-centric mindset. I suspect Korea might be facing similar structural clashes, though perhaps you are adapting at a much faster pace.

jdw64 5mo ago
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tschwimmer 5mo ago

Mondragon gets glazed on HN frequently. Just search and you’ll find many examples.

lumost 5mo ago

In my opinion, this comes from the 70s and 80s where there was very real concern that Japan was going to surpass the US economically. Many companies in the US attempted to adopt Japanese methods in manufacturing and other areas, media then inherited further Japanisms. There is also an historic backdrop of westerners viewing Japan as a mysterious civilization on the far side of the globe dating back to the 1500s.

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niyikiza 5mo ago

Agree with the meta point. I worked in Korea and Japan and loved the culture but when I moved to the west I was surprised to see how people over here fantasize about their (imo inefficient) corporate cultures. This particular article was decently nuanced though.

jmyeet 5mo ago

I've thought a lot about (and I don't mean this in a derogatory way) the weebu phenomenon. I remember encountering it first in college when I met people who were in an anime club. It wasn't for me but my philosophy generally is "let people enjoy things". I will say that it often goes beyond "idealizing". I'd use the word "fetishizing". I've wondered how much of this stems from being disaffected by the modern (particularly Western) world. I worked with an ethnically Chinese guy who was a massive weebu and that always struck me as odd given the Japan-China history. Japan has always rubbed me the wrong way: misogyny, racism and denial about Japanese war crimes in WW2 mostly. Also the salaryman work culture. I see videos from Japanese workers and life honestly looks miserable. It's also a country that is dying. The samurais, ninjas, Ronin, shoguns, etc are cool though. Japanese history is fascinating. My hot take here is that China is actually what people idealize Japan to be. China has the most competent government in the world and it's not even close. It's not problem-free. Nowhere is. But the transformation in the lives of ordinary Chinese people over the last few decades is unbelievable. China pulled ~800 million people out of extreme poverty. It could be worse than Japan too. I think South Korea is that. As a non-Korean from the outside looking in, South Korea looks like a dystopian run by aristocratic (chaebol) families where the birth rate is the lowest in the world and it's in fact so low that if nothing changes, South Korea simply won't exist in 3 generations.

jdw64 5mo ago
Are you angling for an 'Honorary Korean' title? You know too much about Korea
- jmyeet 5mo ago
  My form of autism is going on deep dives into political and history topics and I'm not gonna lie, I've watched a super-long video essays on the 4B movement, neo-confucianism and the chaebols. This [1] I think was one of them. I've never been to South Korea. I'd like to go to Seoul. For me though, South Korea is a cautionary tale in what happens to a country when a handful of families get to control all the wealth, all the good jobs, all the good university places and so on while the working class gets squeezed ever more. There are cultural issues here too that are distinctly Korean, namely that women are expected to have a demanding job AND have children, look after those children and take care of the house (traditionally). [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74

ozim 5mo ago

I think you need to step back and look at why those people write such things. There are people who romanticize Japan/Asia because they never were there and it is not attainable for them. There are people who romanticize Japan/Asia because they have direct business interests to do so like selling dreams to the first group.

LZ_Khan 5mo ago

Yes, objectively these characteristics of Japanese corporations seem like inefficiencies in the "free market". Lack of mobility across companies (no price discovery on wages), lack of specialization (no focus), age based hierarchy (anti-meritocratic). None of these sound good for a well-tuned system. I suspect much of Japan's stagnation is due to this system.

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dfabulich 5mo ago

What article were you reading? This article isn't idealizing Japanese companies, and specifically discusses the drawbacks of the Japanese approach, including zombie companies. The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages. Ironically, you've proved a deeper point about how amusing HN is: we all tend to project our fantasies onto the articles we're discussing, even if we didn't fully read or understand the article.

Trasmatta 5mo ago
Thank you, I was confused reading the comment above, because the article pretty clearly laid out the benefits and drawbacks of the system. I didn't see any idealizing.
neosat 5mo ago
Exactly, I was confused too. The authors clearly mention what the parent comment talks about, albeit towards the end of the article, that the 'J' bundle meant that these firms were not set up for success once they 'caught up' and were required to innovate not just process but from the ground up to envision new categories (e.g. iPhone).
jdw64 5mo ago
I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just isn't true.[1] In reality, this system is largely sustained by the ruthless squeezing of subcontractors (for the record, I am Korean, but I actually like Japan), which is a massive social issue there. It’s very difficult for me to understand how anyone could view this structural dynamic as collaborative or horizontal. If the author had concluded that their success in these niches stems from being an extremely vertical society where defying your superiors is simply not an option, I would have fully agreed. That aligns exactly with what I have experienced firsthand. >"The andon method is really the J-mode in miniature. Information flows laterally, authority to act is widely distributed, and the people closest to the problems are the ones who fix it." Does your definition of a 'horizotal culture' actually mean forcing people to work overtime just to hit deadlines? Are you sure you haven't completely confused 'horizotally' with 'top-down' [1] https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.html https://www.jftc.go.jp/dk/guideline/unyoukijun/romuhitenka.h... P.S. The link I provided is an official directive from the Japan Fair Trade Commission (JFTC) explicitly warning large corporations to stop ruthlessly suppressing their subcontractors' labor costs.

groundzeros2015 5mo ago

> romanticizing the Mondragon Are they successful? Japanese culture reflects certain western attitudes which make it stand out. Do I detect resentment?

wklauss 5mo ago
> Are they successful? I'd say so. Not on all the branches of the cooperative, but it generates over €11 billion in annual revenue and employs more than 70,000 people with a very stable business. It might be a bit tricky to gauge success when the rewards and incentives aren’t quite the same as in your typical capitalist company, though.
- groundzeros2015 5mo ago
  Looks interesting! I would like to learn more

lern_too_spel 5mo ago

The author discusses the zombie problem. I don't think the author is romanticizing this system. Instead, he is explaining why this system exists (as a result of WW2-era industrial reforms that were kept in place instead of discarded), and why that system naturally leads to a certain set of outcomes. West Germany also had to rapidly catch up after WW2 to suit America's Cold War purposes, and there are some similarities to J-firm structure there, but I'd be interested to hear the author's take on why it ended up somewhere else.

wklauss 5mo ago

> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. In his science fiction novels, Kim Stanley Robinson frequently incorporates the Mondragon economic model to explore post-capitalist, worker-owned, and cooperative societies. I'd say KSR is a decently well-known S/F writer, so at least some westerners (and I'd assume many in this site) have already some idea of it. But I'd say it's true that it's easy to romanticize these kinds of singular situations and brush over the problems they might have.

spkm 5mo ago

I'm a german software developer working for a japanese corporation in a german subsidiary. I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Especially the exhausting chain of approvals and also the unwillingness to make quick/tough decisions feels like walking through molasses at times. However, there is also an upside to this. I can actually confirm that they take quality control very serious, probably due to the losing face cultural thing if the product fails the customer and therefore rarely do quick last minute changes or crunch, because it degrades quality.

sersi 5mo ago
I worked for a software consulting company in Japan, we had a contract with a big well known company. The contract gave a precise date for the delivery with huge fines if we delivered late but there was also a long bug fixing period after the initial delivery. So we had overtime for 2 months working from 10am to 4am just so that we could deliver the "feature complete" software. If any bugs were found they were classified as either blockers (feature cannot be shown without) or scheduled to be fixed after delivery. My boss knew it was stupid, he didn't like it but it was the standard contract from that big Japanese company and we were small and they weren't going to change that.
nradov 5mo ago
That's a very narrow viewpoint. From the customer perspective, defect rate is only one component of the product quality vector.
platevoltage 5mo ago
As a fan of Nintendo (the games, not the company of course), this definitely checks out. There are exceptions, but you rarely see a new Zelda game release in the state you can expect from Bethesda.

esseph 5mo ago

> how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? Have never heard about it until now, but just looking through it, sounds great!

59percentmore 5mo ago

>While true for a few, the flip side is that it created a massive 'zombie company' problem—a heavily discussed issue in Korea and Japan that the West seems largely blind to. Oh, we're getting there. It's just a bit fringe right now, but Meta's $90 billion loss on VR and *gestures at various aspects of the Gamestop situation" and a few other incidents have people asking questions that are uncomfortable for the passive investmend fund crowd. Forget zombie companies; by many measures, America has a zombie economy.

nradov 5mo ago
Really? How much has that hurt Meta shareholder returns? Are most active fund managers delivering better results than passive index funds?
- gizajob 5mo ago
  It’s that passive investing has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because regardless of the company situation the funds have to buy the shares at any price, which has made it simpler for incumbents to grow and stay growing while burning profitability to the ground. Hence why there’s been a recent change to the rules on the Nasdaq so SpaceX/OpenAI/Anthropic can be included on the indices 15 days after IPO rather than having three months of price discovery on the markets first before index funds start having to buy huge amounts of their shares and keeping their (likely imaginary) price afloat. It’s a huge structural flaw in the markets right now, yet it seems a flaw that isn’t really going to break anything which is weird in itself. I can’t help but feel that Wall Street is going to find the right place to kick at some point in order to have the whole house of cards come tumbling down for a while so they can buy cheap and negate/steal years of contributions from people buying index funds. Not sure how or when but I’m sure they’re working on it.
  - foobar10000 5mo ago
    Well - there is a giant push to allow non-qualified investors to invest their 401k (and roth and whatever) into the private equities market - pre-IPO companies and such. I can't shake the feeling of a grand fleecing incoming - and honestly, most big financial companies I know are against it because the blowback of inevitably bankrupting the firefighters&nurses pension fund will be congressional hearings and piercings of corporate veils. Seems like the feds are pushing for it - for reasons I cannot fathom.

hammock 5mo ago

It’s Stockholm syndrome. Japan really spanked the highly established U.S. auto and electronics industries in the 70s, and many people now look to kaizen, Kanban, etc as serious cope.

BobaFloutist 5mo ago

I think one thing that's happening is that they're good at things we're frustratingly bad at, and bad at things we don't even realize we're good at, so they get used as an example an awful lot.

hkt 5mo ago

As a westerner (UK) I massively idealise Mondragon and wouldn't find it weird if anyone else did. Cooperatives are fascinating and the question of workplace democracy needs more consideration.

TacticalCoder 5mo ago

> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN I think HN'er are smart enough to not idealize everything about Japan. For example you can be in awe about how clean and safe the country is and how precisely on time all subways train are without idealizing toilet that stream water up your arse.

the_af 5mo ago
> without idealizing toilet that stream water up your arse. So without idealizing the one Japanese thing that is inarguably good?

stein1946 5mo ago

> It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan Replace 'Westerners' with Americans and you are spot on. I have never met any European that glorifies any part of Japan (I'd see Asia as a whole), most of them will tell you how the tall buildings make them feel little and how the society is beyond oppressive. Whatever meritocracy exists in capitalism is ironed out by those rigid hierarchies. I am not sure what is appealing about Japan, Korea or any of these parts of the world, to me they are full of plastic, sugar and late stage capitalism that makes the Americans look as socialists. I do strongly suspect that a certain type of male likes these places for reasons I cannot even hold in my mind for more than a few seconds.

the_af 5mo ago
> I have never met any European that glorifies any part of Japan Didn't France use to be quite Japano-phile? (At least for movies and anime/manga, but also cuisine). Or is this outdated knowledge now?

belviewreview 5mo ago

The article mentions software as an area where the Japanese don't excell doesn't work.

fhe 5mo ago

for what it's worth, back when i was in b-schoo, the predominant theory for the existence of large, diversified Asian conglomerates (Japanese keiretsu is a prime example, but it's not unique to Japan. Similar entities exist in S.Korea and Thailand, among other places) is the friction of starting and doing businesses in these countries. Startups there have such a hard time getting funded and landing clients, that the financing aspect alone give the conglomerates enough of an advantage to edge out startups, despite the inefficiencies typical of large organizations (and in this the Japanese corporate giants are no better than IBM or GE). this theory is typically mentioned when introducing the Theory of the Firm, i.e. why do companies exist at all? why not everyone just freelances, and when you need a marketing/finance/legal/coding person, you just contract one on the free market? the idea is that there are always frictions when doing business with someone new (is this person good? trust worthy? how do i find out?), and how much friction there is determines how big the firm will grow (to incorporate functions in-house, or expand to other industries). in a perfect frictionless economy, it could indeed be true that business transactions all happen at the smallest unit, i.e. the individual. at the other extreme, there would just be one firm that coordinates all economic activities. all real world economies sit some where in between.

pjjpo 5mo ago

Not about the article but I have the exact opposite impression of HN treatment of Japan. It's largely expats complaining about living in Japan or Westerners comparing Japanese values to their own and always concluding the former is inferior, not just different. It feels like a modern form of imperialism to me. I'm surprised you get a positive impression (yes this particular article is an exception though).

socalgal2 5mo ago

Almost nothing in this aritcle matches the reality of my experience in Japan. Horizontal culture? In in my experience. Everything you do requires approval in triplicate. Do the wrong thing at a company and you'll get screamed at by the person who feels their job is under threat from you trying to step out of your precribed role. There's absolutely no such thing as "generalist employees" at any Japanese company I know of. I have no idea where the author got this idea.

CarlitosHighway 5mo ago

Thank you for this post. I am a "Westener" who lived in Japan for 6 years. Boy, was that eye-opening in terms of "the map and the territory". Basically nothing is what it seems to be - and unfortunately the positive things mostly turn out to be nationalism-motivated make-believe, wishful thinking, or only made possible by extremely lax attitudes to amassing public debt (any country could make the trains run on time if they were ready sell their future for it). Western Japanophiles, especially from the US, and even if they speak the language and have lived there, are mostly ignorant and their idea of Japan is a full phantasy.

gizajob 5mo ago
The UK is in the process of spending £100billion of public debt to build a “high speed” train line to connect the northern cities to London. Except it’s been shortened in length to not connect those cities and will instead run only to Birmingham less than 200km away, keeps getting reduced in speed, and can probably be guaranteed not to run on time. So for me it seems like any county could make the trains run with infinite money, but in the country which invented the train we still can’t.

OJFord 5mo ago

I think it's the density of Californians, and that Japanese culture, food, second language etc. is popular there probably not least due to their relative proximity. If HN was Brit-dominated, while less romanticised perhaps we probably would seem oddly fascinated with say France, to our minority members elsewhere.

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Sharon617 5mo ago

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greazy 5mo ago

Besides your point but I learned about Mondragon on hacker news! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438060

huflungdung 5mo ago

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jatins 5mo ago

> In Japan, your corporate affiliation often dictates your social standing Where does it not? As in which countries are not like this?

astrange 5mo ago
The US doesn't. "Social standing" in this case means if your girlfriend's parents will let you marry her. Not, like, who likes your LinkedIn posts.
parineum 5mo ago
I don't know where most of my friends work and I barely understood what my wife does when we started dating.

amfern 5mo ago

Working in japanese software company with Toyota. It's not at all like in the article, it's not horizontal, and very much hierchcal and rigid. And it can be seen in japanese software, it looks like it was designed from request sheet without actually understanding why. It's often nonsensical and extremely convoluted. Most of the good japanese software is actually developed in the west by subcontractors. For example Sony games

AndrewKemendo 5mo ago

I’m not sure what you’re on about Mondragon is the ideal organization I’ve been promoting it and its organizational structure for a decade on this website and I’m one of the oldest members on HN

michaelt 5mo ago

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pibaker 5mo ago

I have noticed that when Japanese megacorps get brought up on the internet, people will admire how cool it is for a company to make so many things. But when a Korean megacorp who makes the same variety of stuffs get brought up, it's all about how evil and oppressive the late stage capitalism chaebols are. There is definitely a double standard when it comes to Japan.

petterroea 5mo ago

The fact that Samsung is kind of famous for just entering new industries left and right, and continuing to produce mediocre products while gaining enough experience to become industry leaders comes to mind. I feel like the blog post could apply to many countries

zrn900 5mo ago

> legacy Waterfall model Huh? I thought Agile was dead (it is) and we were going back to waterfall in the West already...