6 ms·

Permacomputing Principles

272 points by andsoitis 6mo ago

aaron695 6mo ago
[dead]
louismerlin 6mo ago
I have been involved in Berlin’s permacomputing scene for a few years now, and have met a lot of very cool people through that. Can highly recommend you get involved in your local meetups or start your own ! https://permacomputing.net/Community/ https://permacomputing.net/Community/
lynx97 6mo ago
from permacomputing.net: ... an anti-capitalist political project. ... anarchism ... intersectional feminism ... No, thanks. I thought it was a tech project. Apparently not.
- antics9 6mo ago
  On what page did you find that?
  - lynx97 6mo ago
    Second paragraph on the front page: https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net
    - BirAdam 6mo ago
      It's also not just those three: "With that said, permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism." Even for myself, an anarchist, that jumble of ideologies isn't appealing.
- jochem9 6mo ago
  One does not rule out the other. In the end it's nerds messing with hardware. Lots of computer culture is rooted in anarchism, anti-capitalism and a fight for fairness. E.g. early internet culture, the open source community. Imo it's very nice to see explicit anti-capitalist movements within tech, because the other side of tech is so completely over the top capitalist.
  - tolerance 6mo ago
    > In the end it's nerds messing with hardware. Am I being lazy or does this imply that all (or true) nerds are anarchist anti-capitalist feminists.
    - t-3 6mo ago
      No. Some $x do $y does not imply that all/most/many/true $x do $y. It implies that some $x do $y.
      - lynx97 6mo ago
        Well, yes, but no. Hacker Community projects increasingly force political agendas on participants. It gets harder and harder to just do tech stuff without having to align with some cabal.
        stackghost 6mo ago
        Being apolitical just means your politics align with the status quo. Technology is inherently political in nature, because it affects society in material ways.
        Joker_vD 6mo ago
        > because it affects society in material ways. I'm fairly certain the word for that is "economical". Of course, the politics grows out of the economical relationships, but they are still different things: changes in technology may or may not change the political climate (I am fairly certain that an invention of e.g. a tin can opener did not have any noticeably political effects).
- HerbManic 6mo ago
  I get why you wouldn't see this as inviting. But we need to merge the humanities with technology because if both sides ignore the other than both sides will blindly walk into the worst out comes of the other side.
  - colechristensen 6mo ago
    [flagged]
  - eigencoder 6mo ago
    I don't disagree with you, I think we need both the humanities and technology. But this group hasn't listed "the humanities", but a rather reactionary and recent limiting subset of the humanities.
  - modo_mario 6mo ago
    I find it sad to see that pile of ideologies is so easily taken to represent the humanities.
- unfirehose 6mo ago
  check out my version at permacomputer dot com
shota_x402 6mo ago
[flagged]
ps3udo 6mo ago
Related (and complementary): https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/permacomputing.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/permacomputing.html
HerbManic 6mo ago
I have argued for a long time that Permacomputing will be seen as the missing part of the Free Software movement. What use is free software long term if you do not have hardware you can control, maintain and repair easily? This will mean a sacrifice in performance and functionality but gaining control and longevity. With things like Secureboot, TPM modules and ever increasing demands to lock down systems, there is the risk that even libre software will be snuffed out. While not those technologies explicitly, similar less friendly things may come up in future. And when that happens, being beholden to billion dollar hardware companies won't seem so friendly. A little alarmist, but I didn't think we would be were we are today as it is. One interesting area is about how to make software that is not hardware locked but easy enough to implement with very little work involved. This is where projects such as UXN come in. https://100r.co/site/uxn.html https://100r.co/site/uxn.html A system spec that is only 32 instructions deep, something that a single person could implement in less than a week. Essentially the hardest part is building the hardware Abstraction Layer. It wouldn't be efficient but it is very portable and thus makes it resilient to any future possible shocks.
- pfortuny 6mo ago
  This project appears here from time to time and each and every time I am amazed. Thanks for sharing it.
- anthk 6mo ago
  Nils Holm does permacomputing without writting fancy manifestos: https://t3x.org https://t3x.org T3X/0 will assemble binaries for Unix/DOS (maybe Windows) and CP/M. S9 can do great stuff with very little. Klong it's a mini APL-like CAS more bound to Statistics than Calculus. No fancy Unicode needed. Also, Luxferre doing an ultra-minimal numeric VM: https://codeberg.org/luxferre/mu808 https://codeberg.org/luxferre/mu808 Read the instructions, that mini VM it's surprisingly able. Finally, Subleq+EForth from https://github.com/howerj/muxleq https://github.com/howerj/muxleq (muxleq it's just subleq with parallel mux running the exact same intstructions). From the book you can boostrap EForth from itself with a minimal Subleq DEC file. Enough to run a Sokoban, a calculator (set complex numbers as binomials), and you can implement q+ q- q* q/ to calculate and reduce (lcm/mcm) fractions: 2 3 1 3 q+ .s 3 3 <ok> / . 1 <ok> Luxferre's Scoundrel C port can trivially ported to UXN and even maybe mu808. Eforth for sure, with cells and a minimal 'vector/array/' like implementation.
jl6 6mo ago
There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees with you. It’s the self-torpedoing recipe that makes the omnicause so impotent.
- stackghost 6mo ago
  Consider that the venn diagram of "people likely to be negatively impacted by climate change" and "people who belong to historically marginized or discriminated groups" has a lot of overlap. It's little wonder to me why permacomputing, having its roots in environmentalism, attracts people who spend a lot of time and energy on social justice causes. But still: It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.
  - tolerance 6mo ago
    I think the issue being highlighted here is how polarizing causes are advanced and detract from a reasonable one that is supposed to be the pith of an organization. > It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect. I don't object to this in the most general sense. But I also think that a little tact can go a long way from the organization's side to anticipate where the public can't exercise it on their own.
  - zozbot234 6mo ago
    There's strong first-principles reasons to think that left-wing radical politics does a significant disservice to historically marginalized or discriminated groups. Historically the proper and most effective response to maginalization and discrimination was developing strong, enduring social ties (arguably, these social ties are what defines a "group" to begin with, especially on very long-run, even generational timescales), which in practice is now coded as a "right wing" value.
zelon88 6mo ago
I think an important step is to acknowledge when and where to implement technology in the first place. Arguably the environmental benefit of an American farm replacing a 10 year old tractor with an electric model isn't nearly as good for the environment as a farm in India replacing a 70 year old tractor that leaks gallons of oil per month with a 50 year old tractor that doesn't. Capitalists don't understand how to apply cost-to-benefit ratios to anything outside themselves. There is no global entity making sure resources are spent responsibly or equitably at scale.
- altmanaltman 6mo ago
  70 year old tractors? India is the largest manufacturer of tractors but you think they all use 70 year old tractors like as the standard? I feel like you don't really know what you are talking about or just using examples on the fly to make your point which doesnt make much sense. China and the US are the two biggest polluters in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
  - zelon88 6mo ago
    My original analogy was flawed. And yes, I pulled the reference out of my ass. The actual objects referenced are arbitrary. Let me try again. Replacing a low efficiency device with a medium efficiency device is better for the environment (and more cost effective) than replacing a high efficiency device with an ultra high efficiency device.
shota_x402 6mo ago
[flagged]
sebakubisz 6mo ago
[dead]
ktallett 6mo ago
This is where EU policy is helping. Permacomputing only works when we have a significant number of devices that are easily usable beyond a usual lifespan. Whether the whole device is repair able or at least the key aspects such as battery to keep a working phone working, is essential. Although it's really only the first step of many. The next obvious one is to remove lockdown of bootloaders and firmware on devices and allow any software to be installed. Google are going the wrong way. We are so far beyond needing regular purchasing of new devices. Functionality wise, in any significant form, devices haven't improved in many years. This yearly release cycle has become ludicrous and goes against everything we should be doing. Fairphone, Framework, MNT, Shift, are all on the right track even if not perfect.
dzhiurgis 6mo ago
This got to be satire.
- rolandhvar 6mo ago
  I agree. What is the purpose of this article?
  - ulbu 6mo ago
    to introduce a perspective and a community to someone who might want to be informed about it or participate.
    - rolandhvar 6mo ago
      Probably not a popular opinion around here, but here goes anyway: the fundamental problem is that unless your net worth is $100m+, there is no point being a do-gooder as any attempts to fix big moral hazards are only going to harm you more than it's worth. So why bother?
      - ulbu 6mo ago
        it's not about mending the world. it's about finding pleasure in living out what's right. it's embodying of a value, a moral principle. the way you express it says that the breadth of the effect of your choices is an essential parameter in considering your processes. I dislike this position due to its administrative, almost corporate undertone; I do understand it and ascribe to it myself in administrative matters, but not the personal. but look at it this way: you won't change much by feeding homeless animals or birds, or by planting a couple of trees, but it may still bring great pleasure to do it. one way that i see it differ from permacomputing is that the feedback / perception of its effect is more immediate; or that permacomputing is following a more abstract, mediated value. but both are about finding some joy and meaning in doing something purely out of care. if not pleasure, it at least gives a little framework, a heuristic when making decisions.
        6mo ago
abricq 6mo ago
While I appreciate all the stuffs mentioned here, I believe they are missing something: people should *go vote at all the elections*, and advocate for a system-level change. Systemic resilience instead of personal habits. Pretty much all their suggestions are to be applied on personal-level. And I agree with those. But they could be made 100x easier if there was some help provided by localities, municipalities & states. I'd love to know better my neighbors & exchange skills & objects, but i'd be much easier if there was a *free* repair-coffee in the neighborhood. One example from the article: one of the suggestion for "hope for the best prepare for the worst" is "start a local repair cafe". But come on ! With what money ? With what time ? Where ? Opening a repair café is the kind of stuff is by nature non-profitable, therefore the business of the states. All i'm trying to say is: let's just not forget that this is a political concern, and we can vote for these stuffs.
- 320x200 6mo ago
  Fair point, however the link between systemic and individual changes is not as binary as it may seem, it's long debated thing, but in a nutshell it's essentially a circular problem. Lot of permacomputing participants are involved into activist work and encourage coop forms of organization, collective action, creation/joining of unions, and make use of their technical skills to help less privileged groups (some of these encouragements are also listed in the principles). All of these things have impact on the perception of mainstream politics, capacity for change and how electoral politics could be activated. Maybe this could be made more explicit.
- TrevorFSmith 6mo ago
  Every effort doesn't need to address every problem, I think. You're right that individual effort isn't sufficient and many of the permacomputing folks are also activists of varying sorts but I think it's ok to separate concerns as most people understand that there's no single and complete solution.
- bccdee 6mo ago
  > and we can vote for these stuffs. Can we? We can vote for a party, but I don't know that any party here has permacomputing in their platform. If you want to add something to a party's platform, the usual way to do that is lobbying, but who can afford lobbyists? The alternative—grassroots activism—tends to involve a lot of stuff like local repair cafes that attract volunteers and get people talking.
anthk 6mo ago
Less talk about permacomputing and more programming :) https://t3x.org https://t3x.org - T3X0 and a lot more languages from there will compile to Unix, DOS and even CP/M. There's a Tetris clone, some shooter, a Ladder clone, some editor... - S9 Scheme has Ncurses and sockets support, it can do a lot, basically all the exercises from Computer Abstractions. If you are good enough at Scheme you might do SICP by reusing the graphics.scm code for (frame) - Klong it's an APL/K like language but without odd symbols. It comes with a greats book on statistics. - MLite it's a great ML/Haskell-like intro - NHM Basic it's more like a toy Basic but it can do a lot with a bit of effort https://luxferre.top https://luxferre.top - The repos from this guy have nice games such as Scoundrel (portable to subc with a bit of effort) and vm's like mu808, and Scoundrel can be adapted to S9, T3X0, MLite, NMH Basic on hours.
kakwa_ 6mo ago
Are these principles really about sustainability? It seems to be far more geared toward promoting some sort of misplaced post-collapse resiliency. In other words: solving some hypothetical issues on the other side of a catastrophe for a world we don't know anything about, and almost ignoring present and actual problems.
- xantronix 6mo ago
  I don't think the two are particularly incompatible. This seems more like a foundational statement than a demonstration of what permacomputing in current practice might look like. Sure, things like https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/ have a performance element to them, but it's meant to be illustrative of what can be achieved more than just prescriptive. A very solid (but mundane) example of permacomputing today is just holding onto an old ThinkPad and using it for meaningful work rather than feeling the need to buy a new machine every couple years.
unfirehose 6mo ago
my community is also growing a permacomputer we have permacomputer dot com and unturf dot com to explain the system. our system has a bounding box of Truth, Freedom, Harmony, & Love.
swannodette 6mo ago
The original article on permacomputing by viznut https://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html https://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html
GistNoesis 6mo ago
The root of this problem is linked to the difficulty of manufacturing chips at home. Some people are already doing this in their home lab (don't get me wrong the chemicals involved are really nasty). The main problem is economical. Big factories benefits from economies of scale, which mean the ecosystem for one off prototypes chips couldn't really develop. For advanced devices the transistor must be small so the process used ever-shrinking wavelength to engrave the silicon wafers. The whole industry took the Extreme-UV lithography route, which required big machines and investments. But the alternative was there all-along (reminiscent of 3d-printer vs mass fabrication). Instead of using light to engrave the wafer use particles : For example mask-less electron beam lithography where you scan a beam of electron like in old TVs. It still have problems scaling up because you are writing a single point instead of projecting an image, but achievable resolution can be higher, and multi-beam systems are on the horizon to solve this speed issue. With software and IP cost going down and humans no longer needed in the loop due to advanced robotics, most safety issues can be contained more easily.
EvidenceRun 6mo ago
[flagged]
randusername 6mo ago
I think it's rad that folks are thinking more deeply about what mainstream computing is implicitly for and what a counter-culture would look like. The language on this site seems to position permacomputing in opposition to an unethical status quo. Personally I'd rather more of a solarpunk computing initiative. Instead of identity defined by what you are fleeing, define it by what you are running towards.
1313ed01 6mo ago
Browsing that wiki in the past and two pages that resonated with me were on the topic of stable APIs (that is a topic in need of much more discussion overall). There are some good thoughts there. https://permacomputing.net/software_rot/ https://permacomputing.net/software_rot/ https://permacomputing.net/bedrock_platform/ https://permacomputing.net/bedrock_platform/
jefurii 6mo ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48050540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48050540
benj111 6mo ago
The problem with permacomputing to me, is that computing demands, by and large are dictated by web pages. I run an old laptop, my last one was replaced solely because of the web browser dragging it down. From that view, something like frog find (https://frogfind.superglobalmegacorp.com/ https://frogfind.superglobalmegacorp.com/) is what is needed.
alexwennerberg 6mo ago
For any Bay Area folks, we have a permacomputing meetup. Planning on scheduling the next one, you can join the mailing list or RSS for updates https://alexwennerberg.com/permacomputing.html https://alexwennerberg.com/permacomputing.html
arian_ 6mo ago
[flagged]
LennyHenrysNuts 6mo ago
I'm not a greenie by any stretch of the imagination but I'm a strong believer in Repair, Re-use, Recycle. I'm writing this comment on a Lenovo Yoga I bought for $10 and fixed up. It's a quad core with 4GB of soldered RAM and a 128GB SSD but I slapped CachyOS on it and it works for nearly anything I want to do when I'm out and about. The battery lasts me about 3 1/2 hours. I've picked up CRT monitors for virtually nothing and they work just fine. We throw things away too easily.
Lanzaa 6mo ago
This didn't pass my sniff test. Each of the three key ethics; "Earth Care", "People Care", and "Fair Share", only appear once in the document. I feel like that is a clear rhetorical failure. "Fair Share" triggers my economic mind and made me look directly for their alternative to capitalism, they have none.

272 points by andsoitis 6mo ago

[dead]

I have been involved in Berlin’s permacomputing scene for a few years now, and have met a lot of very cool people through that. Can highly recommend you get involved in your local meetups or start your own ! https://permacomputing.net/Community/ https://permacomputing.net/Community/

lynx97 6mo ago

from permacomputing.net: ... an anti-capitalist political project. ... anarchism ... intersectional feminism ... No, thanks. I thought it was a tech project. Apparently not.

antics9 6mo ago
On what page did you find that?
- lynx97 6mo ago
  Second paragraph on the front page: https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net
  - BirAdam 6mo ago
    It's also not just those three: "With that said, permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism." Even for myself, an anarchist, that jumble of ideologies isn't appealing.
jochem9 6mo ago
One does not rule out the other. In the end it's nerds messing with hardware. Lots of computer culture is rooted in anarchism, anti-capitalism and a fight for fairness. E.g. early internet culture, the open source community. Imo it's very nice to see explicit anti-capitalist movements within tech, because the other side of tech is so completely over the top capitalist.
- tolerance 6mo ago
  > In the end it's nerds messing with hardware. Am I being lazy or does this imply that all (or true) nerds are anarchist anti-capitalist feminists.
  - t-3 6mo ago
    No. Some $x do $y does not imply that all/most/many/true $x do $y. It implies that some $x do $y.
    - lynx97 6mo ago
      Well, yes, but no. Hacker Community projects increasingly force political agendas on participants. It gets harder and harder to just do tech stuff without having to align with some cabal.
      - stackghost 6mo ago
        Being apolitical just means your politics align with the status quo. Technology is inherently political in nature, because it affects society in material ways.
        Joker_vD 6mo ago
        > because it affects society in material ways. I'm fairly certain the word for that is "economical". Of course, the politics grows out of the economical relationships, but they are still different things: changes in technology may or may not change the political climate (I am fairly certain that an invention of e.g. a tin can opener did not have any noticeably political effects).
HerbManic 6mo ago
I get why you wouldn't see this as inviting. But we need to merge the humanities with technology because if both sides ignore the other than both sides will blindly walk into the worst out comes of the other side.
- colechristensen 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- eigencoder 6mo ago
  I don't disagree with you, I think we need both the humanities and technology. But this group hasn't listed "the humanities", but a rather reactionary and recent limiting subset of the humanities.
- modo_mario 6mo ago
  I find it sad to see that pile of ideologies is so easily taken to represent the humanities.
unfirehose 6mo ago
check out my version at permacomputer dot com

shota_x402 6mo ago

[flagged]

ps3udo 6mo ago

Related (and complementary): https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/permacomputing.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/permacomputing.html

HerbManic 6mo ago

I have argued for a long time that Permacomputing will be seen as the missing part of the Free Software movement. What use is free software long term if you do not have hardware you can control, maintain and repair easily? This will mean a sacrifice in performance and functionality but gaining control and longevity. With things like Secureboot, TPM modules and ever increasing demands to lock down systems, there is the risk that even libre software will be snuffed out. While not those technologies explicitly, similar less friendly things may come up in future. And when that happens, being beholden to billion dollar hardware companies won't seem so friendly. A little alarmist, but I didn't think we would be were we are today as it is. One interesting area is about how to make software that is not hardware locked but easy enough to implement with very little work involved. This is where projects such as UXN come in. https://100r.co/site/uxn.html https://100r.co/site/uxn.html A system spec that is only 32 instructions deep, something that a single person could implement in less than a week. Essentially the hardest part is building the hardware Abstraction Layer. It wouldn't be efficient but it is very portable and thus makes it resilient to any future possible shocks.

pfortuny 6mo ago
This project appears here from time to time and each and every time I am amazed. Thanks for sharing it.
anthk 6mo ago
Nils Holm does permacomputing without writting fancy manifestos: https://t3x.org https://t3x.org T3X/0 will assemble binaries for Unix/DOS (maybe Windows) and CP/M. S9 can do great stuff with very little. Klong it's a mini APL-like CAS more bound to Statistics than Calculus. No fancy Unicode needed. Also, Luxferre doing an ultra-minimal numeric VM: https://codeberg.org/luxferre/mu808 https://codeberg.org/luxferre/mu808 Read the instructions, that mini VM it's surprisingly able. Finally, Subleq+EForth from https://github.com/howerj/muxleq https://github.com/howerj/muxleq (muxleq it's just subleq with parallel mux running the exact same intstructions). From the book you can boostrap EForth from itself with a minimal Subleq DEC file. Enough to run a Sokoban, a calculator (set complex numbers as binomials), and you can implement q+ q- q* q/ to calculate and reduce (lcm/mcm) fractions: 2 3 1 3 q+ .s 3 3 <ok> / . 1 <ok> Luxferre's Scoundrel C port can trivially ported to UXN and even maybe mu808. Eforth for sure, with cells and a minimal 'vector/array/' like implementation.

jl6 6mo ago

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees with you. It’s the self-torpedoing recipe that makes the omnicause so impotent.

stackghost 6mo ago
Consider that the venn diagram of "people likely to be negatively impacted by climate change" and "people who belong to historically marginized or discriminated groups" has a lot of overlap. It's little wonder to me why permacomputing, having its roots in environmentalism, attracts people who spend a lot of time and energy on social justice causes. But still: It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.
- tolerance 6mo ago
  I think the issue being highlighted here is how polarizing causes are advanced and detract from a reasonable one that is supposed to be the pith of an organization. > It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect. I don't object to this in the most general sense. But I also think that a little tact can go a long way from the organization's side to anticipate where the public can't exercise it on their own.
- zozbot234 6mo ago
  There's strong first-principles reasons to think that left-wing radical politics does a significant disservice to historically marginalized or discriminated groups. Historically the proper and most effective response to maginalization and discrimination was developing strong, enduring social ties (arguably, these social ties are what defines a "group" to begin with, especially on very long-run, even generational timescales), which in practice is now coded as a "right wing" value.

zelon88 6mo ago

I think an important step is to acknowledge when and where to implement technology in the first place. Arguably the environmental benefit of an American farm replacing a 10 year old tractor with an electric model isn't nearly as good for the environment as a farm in India replacing a 70 year old tractor that leaks gallons of oil per month with a 50 year old tractor that doesn't. Capitalists don't understand how to apply cost-to-benefit ratios to anything outside themselves. There is no global entity making sure resources are spent responsibly or equitably at scale.

altmanaltman 6mo ago
70 year old tractors? India is the largest manufacturer of tractors but you think they all use 70 year old tractors like as the standard? I feel like you don't really know what you are talking about or just using examples on the fly to make your point which doesnt make much sense. China and the US are the two biggest polluters in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
- zelon88 6mo ago
  My original analogy was flawed. And yes, I pulled the reference out of my ass. The actual objects referenced are arbitrary. Let me try again. Replacing a low efficiency device with a medium efficiency device is better for the environment (and more cost effective) than replacing a high efficiency device with an ultra high efficiency device.

shota_x402 6mo ago

[flagged]

sebakubisz 6mo ago

[dead]

ktallett 6mo ago

This is where EU policy is helping. Permacomputing only works when we have a significant number of devices that are easily usable beyond a usual lifespan. Whether the whole device is repair able or at least the key aspects such as battery to keep a working phone working, is essential. Although it's really only the first step of many. The next obvious one is to remove lockdown of bootloaders and firmware on devices and allow any software to be installed. Google are going the wrong way. We are so far beyond needing regular purchasing of new devices. Functionality wise, in any significant form, devices haven't improved in many years. This yearly release cycle has become ludicrous and goes against everything we should be doing. Fairphone, Framework, MNT, Shift, are all on the right track even if not perfect.

dzhiurgis 6mo ago

This got to be satire.

rolandhvar 6mo ago
I agree. What is the purpose of this article?
- ulbu 6mo ago
  to introduce a perspective and a community to someone who might want to be informed about it or participate.
  - rolandhvar 6mo ago
    Probably not a popular opinion around here, but here goes anyway: the fundamental problem is that unless your net worth is $100m+, there is no point being a do-gooder as any attempts to fix big moral hazards are only going to harm you more than it's worth. So why bother?
    - ulbu 6mo ago
      it's not about mending the world. it's about finding pleasure in living out what's right. it's embodying of a value, a moral principle. the way you express it says that the breadth of the effect of your choices is an essential parameter in considering your processes. I dislike this position due to its administrative, almost corporate undertone; I do understand it and ascribe to it myself in administrative matters, but not the personal. but look at it this way: you won't change much by feeding homeless animals or birds, or by planting a couple of trees, but it may still bring great pleasure to do it. one way that i see it differ from permacomputing is that the feedback / perception of its effect is more immediate; or that permacomputing is following a more abstract, mediated value. but both are about finding some joy and meaning in doing something purely out of care. if not pleasure, it at least gives a little framework, a heuristic when making decisions.
      - 6mo ago

abricq 6mo ago

While I appreciate all the stuffs mentioned here, I believe they are missing something: people should *go vote at all the elections*, and advocate for a system-level change. Systemic resilience instead of personal habits. Pretty much all their suggestions are to be applied on personal-level. And I agree with those. But they could be made 100x easier if there was some help provided by localities, municipalities & states. I'd love to know better my neighbors & exchange skills & objects, but i'd be much easier if there was a *free* repair-coffee in the neighborhood. One example from the article: one of the suggestion for "hope for the best prepare for the worst" is "start a local repair cafe". But come on ! With what money ? With what time ? Where ? Opening a repair café is the kind of stuff is by nature non-profitable, therefore the business of the states. All i'm trying to say is: let's just not forget that this is a political concern, and we can vote for these stuffs.

320x200 6mo ago
Fair point, however the link between systemic and individual changes is not as binary as it may seem, it's long debated thing, but in a nutshell it's essentially a circular problem. Lot of permacomputing participants are involved into activist work and encourage coop forms of organization, collective action, creation/joining of unions, and make use of their technical skills to help less privileged groups (some of these encouragements are also listed in the principles). All of these things have impact on the perception of mainstream politics, capacity for change and how electoral politics could be activated. Maybe this could be made more explicit.
TrevorFSmith 6mo ago
Every effort doesn't need to address every problem, I think. You're right that individual effort isn't sufficient and many of the permacomputing folks are also activists of varying sorts but I think it's ok to separate concerns as most people understand that there's no single and complete solution.
bccdee 6mo ago
> and we can vote for these stuffs. Can we? We can vote for a party, but I don't know that any party here has permacomputing in their platform. If you want to add something to a party's platform, the usual way to do that is lobbying, but who can afford lobbyists? The alternative—grassroots activism—tends to involve a lot of stuff like local repair cafes that attract volunteers and get people talking.

anthk 6mo ago

Less talk about permacomputing and more programming :) https://t3x.org https://t3x.org - T3X0 and a lot more languages from there will compile to Unix, DOS and even CP/M. There's a Tetris clone, some shooter, a Ladder clone, some editor... - S9 Scheme has Ncurses and sockets support, it can do a lot, basically all the exercises from Computer Abstractions. If you are good enough at Scheme you might do SICP by reusing the graphics.scm code for (frame) - Klong it's an APL/K like language but without odd symbols. It comes with a greats book on statistics. - MLite it's a great ML/Haskell-like intro - NHM Basic it's more like a toy Basic but it can do a lot with a bit of effort https://luxferre.top https://luxferre.top - The repos from this guy have nice games such as Scoundrel (portable to subc with a bit of effort) and vm's like mu808, and Scoundrel can be adapted to S9, T3X0, MLite, NMH Basic on hours.

kakwa_ 6mo ago

Are these principles really about sustainability? It seems to be far more geared toward promoting some sort of misplaced post-collapse resiliency. In other words: solving some hypothetical issues on the other side of a catastrophe for a world we don't know anything about, and almost ignoring present and actual problems.

xantronix 6mo ago
I don't think the two are particularly incompatible. This seems more like a foundational statement than a demonstration of what permacomputing in current practice might look like. Sure, things like https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/ have a performance element to them, but it's meant to be illustrative of what can be achieved more than just prescriptive. A very solid (but mundane) example of permacomputing today is just holding onto an old ThinkPad and using it for meaningful work rather than feeling the need to buy a new machine every couple years.

unfirehose 6mo ago

my community is also growing a permacomputer we have permacomputer dot com and unturf dot com to explain the system. our system has a bounding box of Truth, Freedom, Harmony, & Love.

swannodette 6mo ago

The original article on permacomputing by viznut https://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html https://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html

GistNoesis 6mo ago

The root of this problem is linked to the difficulty of manufacturing chips at home. Some people are already doing this in their home lab (don't get me wrong the chemicals involved are really nasty). The main problem is economical. Big factories benefits from economies of scale, which mean the ecosystem for one off prototypes chips couldn't really develop. For advanced devices the transistor must be small so the process used ever-shrinking wavelength to engrave the silicon wafers. The whole industry took the Extreme-UV lithography route, which required big machines and investments. But the alternative was there all-along (reminiscent of 3d-printer vs mass fabrication). Instead of using light to engrave the wafer use particles : For example mask-less electron beam lithography where you scan a beam of electron like in old TVs. It still have problems scaling up because you are writing a single point instead of projecting an image, but achievable resolution can be higher, and multi-beam systems are on the horizon to solve this speed issue. With software and IP cost going down and humans no longer needed in the loop due to advanced robotics, most safety issues can be contained more easily.

EvidenceRun 6mo ago

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randusername 6mo ago

I think it's rad that folks are thinking more deeply about what mainstream computing is implicitly for and what a counter-culture would look like. The language on this site seems to position permacomputing in opposition to an unethical status quo. Personally I'd rather more of a solarpunk computing initiative. Instead of identity defined by what you are fleeing, define it by what you are running towards.

1313ed01 6mo ago

Browsing that wiki in the past and two pages that resonated with me were on the topic of stable APIs (that is a topic in need of much more discussion overall). There are some good thoughts there. https://permacomputing.net/software_rot/ https://permacomputing.net/software_rot/ https://permacomputing.net/bedrock_platform/ https://permacomputing.net/bedrock_platform/

jefurii 6mo ago

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48050540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48050540

benj111 6mo ago

The problem with permacomputing to me, is that computing demands, by and large are dictated by web pages. I run an old laptop, my last one was replaced solely because of the web browser dragging it down. From that view, something like frog find (https://frogfind.superglobalmegacorp.com/ https://frogfind.superglobalmegacorp.com/) is what is needed.

alexwennerberg 6mo ago

For any Bay Area folks, we have a permacomputing meetup. Planning on scheduling the next one, you can join the mailing list or RSS for updates https://alexwennerberg.com/permacomputing.html https://alexwennerberg.com/permacomputing.html

arian_ 6mo ago

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LennyHenrysNuts 6mo ago

I'm not a greenie by any stretch of the imagination but I'm a strong believer in Repair, Re-use, Recycle. I'm writing this comment on a Lenovo Yoga I bought for $10 and fixed up. It's a quad core with 4GB of soldered RAM and a 128GB SSD but I slapped CachyOS on it and it works for nearly anything I want to do when I'm out and about. The battery lasts me about 3 1/2 hours. I've picked up CRT monitors for virtually nothing and they work just fine. We throw things away too easily.

Lanzaa 6mo ago

This didn't pass my sniff test. Each of the three key ethics; "Earth Care", "People Care", and "Fair Share", only appear once in the document. I feel like that is a clear rhetorical failure. "Fair Share" triggers my economic mind and made me look directly for their alternative to capitalism, they have none.