8 ms·

Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

333 points by fork-bomber 6mo ago

spooneybarger 6mo ago
That's a very small list.
- badgersnake 6mo ago
  It’s a subset of a subset. The sets being (FreeBSD users (with laptops (who can be bothered to write about them on an obscure wiki)))
- guenthert 6mo ago
  Yeah, compare to https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops it is. Years ago, there was a project combining Debian with the kernel from FreeBSD. That never made sense to me and the project seems to have died meanwhile. More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. That way one would get fairly broad and current hardware support and could still enjoy a classic Unix look&feel and stable ABI.
  - theragra 6mo ago
    Moreover, many laptops working on Linux perfectly, are not Ubuntu certified. Lenovo Legion series generally works well, but it is not in the Ubuntu list. Id we'd make a list of all 8/10 or more compatible laptops, it would be huge.
  - skydhash 6mo ago
    > More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. A lot of BSD utilities that are not POSIX has really close interaction with the kernel. OpenBSD’s *ctl binaries are often the user-facing part of some OS subsystem. Linux subsystem often expose a very complex internal that you need to use some other project to tame down
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6mo ago
    IMHO the biggest advantage that Debian/kFreeBSD would have had would be first-class ZFS support. You can use ZFS with Debian today, but the license problem means it only gets supported through DKMS, which is a pain; a FreeBSD-based Debian could ship binary packages for ZFS that just worked out of the box.
    - evanjrowley 6mo ago
      Considering the amount of Linux distros based on Debian, it is truly a shame that Debian/kFreeBSD stagnated. We could have had Proxmox/kFreeBSD with support for ZFS Boot environments! The evolution of FreeNAS/TrueNAS demonstrates things have been going in the opposite direction.
  - tbe 6mo ago
    > More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. Chimera Linux is doing something like this, although without aiming for the full BSD experience, just utilising its core userland [1]. The project is in an alpha stage. 1: https://chimera-linux.org/about#alternative-userland https://chimera-linux.org/about#alternative-userland
bluGill 6mo ago
That is cool in ways, but many manufactures change the internals without changing the model number and so I'm not sure how much I can trust it. There is a recycled computers place near me that will sell me some of those cheap, but how can I be sure the one I'm buying is the same as the one tested (if indeed I can find any of those model numbers at all - which is a factor of what companies near me are recycling this month)
skydhash 6mo ago
I have the latitude 7490 and it worked great with Linux, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. The only issue is some hardware design issue where lifting it with one hand will cause it to freeze (possibly some stress causing a shock or a displacement). The best resource to check support is https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/dmesgd https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/dmesgd
- shrubble 6mo ago
  This happened exactly to me also, I suspect some flexing in the motherboard or other component; right now it is complaining about the RAM and reseating hasn’t fixed it. Great laptop otherwise however!
- gentile 6mo ago
  Consider balling up some electrical tape underneath the Ram stick. This solved this very specific issue with my laptop that was flexing too much and crashing.
  - shrubble 6mo ago
    Between the RAM and the motherboard? Interesting, will try it.
PunchyHamster 6mo ago
> 9/10 > half of networking doesnt work, and it's the more important one for laptop(wifi) I think they need to revise the scoring
- whalesalad 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- fullstop 6mo ago
  It seems like the best way to get WiFi working in FreeBSD is to run Linux in bhyve and tunnel your connections through there.
  - whalesalad 6mo ago
    the fact that this is a widely accepted/encouraged practice is genuinely unhinged
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 6mo ago
      Why? Nothing wrong with running your network interface in a VM. There are reasons for doing so even if drivers aren't an issue. Qubes OS does this, for instance, for security reasons.
      - wolvoleo 6mo ago
        Windows also does. Almost everything is a VM in windows these days. It's just how things work these days. If you'd say "I run my VPN client in a docker container" it would raise a lot less eyebrows. Yet it's not very different, really. Though conceptually I'd frown at having to run Linux. I'd prefer upgrading the hardware to a supported chip.
        PunchyHamster 6mo ago
        Windows isn't running entire fucking separate kernel to run wifi driver, the fuck you're talking about
mmsc 6mo ago
FreeBSD works perfectly on intel MacBooks if you've got one laying around: https://joshua.hu/FreeBSD-on-MacbookPro-114-A1398 https://joshua.hu/FreeBSD-on-MacbookPro-114-A1398
- whalesalad 6mo ago
  Probably not T2 MacBooks though.
  - LeFantome 6mo ago
    Those barely work with Linux. And I have found the WiFi to be incompatible with some networks.
- bxparks 6mo ago
  From the link: "Note: The inbuilt WiFi chip is not natively supported by FreeBSD, so you will need to (temporarily) use a USB WiFi or Ethernet dongle, or (as I will explain) copy some files from a different system to the Macbook. You could also just transplant a different chip into the system." You say "works perfectly". I do not think it means what you think it means. To be fair, Linux also has trouble with the Broadcom chip, the driver needs to be installed as a separate step on most distros.
  - skydhash 6mo ago
    I think the intersection between BSD users and people who will buy a dongle or use Ethernet is a perfect circle.
  - wolvoleo 6mo ago
    > Broadcom Here's the real problem. It's sad how a company that spawned the raspberry pi in earlier times got so evil so quickly.
    - shrubble 6mo ago
      Every Raspberry Pi ships with a closed source OS, ThreadX, that boots Linux, BTW.
irusensei 6mo ago
In my opinion pre alder lake intel is the sweet spot for FreeBSD. Not sure about AMD but anything before 2020 should work just fine. Just avoid CPUs with heterogenous core configurations for now.
shevy-java 6mo ago
Good old FreeBSD - always trying to catch up to Linux.
- jmclnx 6mo ago
  Glad to see this list, will keep an eye on it ! Now to be fair, in a few ways I think it is ahead. Now if you said "catch up to Linux in hardware support" I would fully agree. Last I heard, its VM (swap/memory) processes is still better, but seems many Linux people avoid swap space these days. FWIW, I always have swap on any system that allows it. And Jails, IMO nothing on Linux comes close to how good FreeBSD Jails is.
  - bionsystem 6mo ago
    Incus is pretty damn good to be fair. You can mix and match VMs and containers, the terraform provider "just works", the setup is fast and easy, it plays well with ZFS. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it still lags jails (or Illumos Zones) in robustness or some capabilities but I'm a happy user of them now.
    - evanjrowley 6mo ago
      I use IncusOS when I need the Linux kernel for some specific hardware like the latest graphics or some AI accelerator. FreeBSD for when none of those things are necessary.
- wolvoleo 6mo ago
  Not really, it's just different. Not trying to be the same, which catching up implies.
- unethical_ban 6mo ago
  This isn't a holy war, and freeBSD does well for itself where it's good. It's definitely oriented to servers.
olivierestsage 6mo ago
It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this. I would get it if FreeBSD was a product you paid for, or someone was evangelizing about how you're missing out if you don't get the FreeBSD laptop experience, or something. As someone who liked FreeBSD in the past and curious to check it out again, I'm glad to have this handy list.
- stackghost 6mo ago
  >It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this I think it's because this chart continues a trend I've noticed with BSD zealots. Namely, there's some sort of reality distortion effect at play. Consider that there are obvious bullshit scores on TFA, like giving a laptop 9/10 when the fucking wifi doesn't work. In reality, this should be 5/10 or arguably 0/10. After all, what use is a laptop without wifi? If my laptop's wifi didn't work I wouldn't just buy a usb-ethernet adapter and never bring it anywhere; I would get a new laptop because a laptop without WiFi is useless. On top of that there was a while here where every BSD thread had: - a comment about how BSD powers the PlayStation, Netflix, and other FAANGs, except those corps don't contribute enough back because of the license so won't you please subsidize these giant corps by donating to BSD? - people who argue BSD is superior because it's "more cohesive" and "feels cleaner" or similar - OpenBSD zealots claiming it's 110% secure because trust me bro Mostly I'm just tired of people claiming BSD is this amazing new thing with no flaws, when reality is that it has got some niche use cases, I suspect lots of its developers don't even dogfood it, and is otherwise superceded by Linux in nearly every meaningful way. I have no problem with BSD, and I have two boxes in my basement running freeBSD right now, but I'm not delusional about BSD's limitations.
  - asveikau 6mo ago
    > Mostly I'm just tired of people claiming BSD is this amazing new thing I don't think I've heard anybody claim BSD is new. > Netflix, and other FAANGs, except those corps don't contribute enough back because of the license I believe Netflix has upstreamed a lot to FreeBSD. They don't do it because the license compels them, they do it because upstreaming your changes makes maintenance easier. > If my laptop's wifi didn't work I wouldn't just buy a usb-ethernet adapter and never bring it anywhere I'm going to guess with this rant that you weren't using Linux in the olden days, because that's what it was like. The workaround isn't using wired ethernet by the way..you can get a USB wifi adapter or you can buy an m.2 wifi card. On on one of my machines I got a cheap m.2 Intel ax200 (just checked, about $15 on eBay) because it runs faster on FreeBSD than the one that shipped with my laptop.
wolvoleo 6mo ago
Interesting. I use FreeBSD on my desktop too but it's really a desktop so I don't have to bother with WiFi or bluetooth. I generally dislike laptops for ergonomic reasons, and I never bring my computers anywhere anyway so I just buy NUCs. Not having to buy for a display, keyboard, trackpad, battery helps keep the price down. I like it for several reasons. It's a holistic system which means it's much easier to understand, not a collection of random parts thrown together. There is only really one (big) distro so documentation is easy to come by and consistent. I love the way the updates of the system are uncoupled from the userland software so you can have rolling packages but a stable OS. Also the ports collection is great (being able to manually compile every package with different flags where needed). And jails. And ZFS first-class citizen. Also I like the attitude. Less involvement from big tech, less strive to change for change's sake. It feels a lot more stable, every new version there's only a few things changed. It's not that with every major update I have to learn everything anew again because someone wanted to include their new init system (like systemd), configuration tools (like ifconfig -> ip), packaging system (like snap) etc. Things that work fine are just left alone. It has some really good ideas also, like boot environments. But it's not linux. It's not meant to be. But yeah if you want everything all figured out for you, don't use FreeBSD. Just take a commercial linux like ubuntu. You'll need to tinker a bit, which I like because it helps me understand my system. FreeBSD is a bit like Linux was in the early 2000s, it mostly works but you often have to dive into a shell for some magic. The good thing is having ZFS snapshots as a safety net though. Never really get caught out that way.
- vehemenz 6mo ago
  > FreeBSD is a bit like Linux was in the early 2000s, it mostly works but you often have to dive into a shell for some magic. Which, ironically, is what Linux users have been saying for ages with respect to Windows, but the market share speaks for itself.
  - broken-kebab 6mo ago
    I don't get what they have been ironically saying. Direct reading suggests it's that Linux is like Windows in 2000 but it doesn't make sense to me, I never heard a comparison like that.
sroerick 6mo ago
There's an axiom here which is that the better your overall user experience is, the less hardware support you are going to have. The more accessible software becomes the more infra is required to support it, and the more complex and convoluted the software will be
Jotalea 6mo ago
I'd say Juana Manso laptops are usable with FreeBSD. sure, you lose brightness control, you can't see how much battery remains, (I didn't try wifi but the 9650AC chip seems to be supported), but it is usable. audio works, USB works, video works when you load the Intel drivers.
sunshine-o 6mo ago
I personally feel like the race to support a vast array of hardware is very costly for such a small team and might be a waste of their precious resources. Of course I love FreeBSD and want it to be supported on my desktop or laptop but at what cost? Here is the question I have always wanted to ask: Why not make the ultimate compromise and say: you will be able to run FreeBSD on almost all laptops but it is gonna be through let say an Alpine Linux hypervisor and we are gonna ship it with all the glue you need to have a great experience. About every CPU has great visualization capabilities nowadays and the perf are amazing. Now some might start screaming at the idea but you already run your favorite operating system through a stack of software you do not trust or control: UEFI, CPU microcode, etc. I believe we need OS diversity and if so much of the energy of project is spent on working on an infinite hardware support, how much is left for the real innovation?
- kombine 6mo ago
  I agree. Linux has a wealth of hardware drivers and the time would be better spent on a translation layer or do it via running a VM or even using LLMs to port the drivers over to FreeBSD en masse. That way BSD team can focus on their unique strengths.
  - atmosx 6mo ago
    My guess is that *BSDs will see a huge boosts in HW support in the following years, primarily due to LLMs.
- assimpleaspossi 6mo ago
  It's already done through the linuxalator. You run Linux applications through that. Or you can run Linux through bhyve.
supliminal 6mo ago
Yeah you run into this head on trying to use BSD. It’s too much glue and compat work. By the end of it you no longer have a coherent system, you’re back to Linux. I use FBSD on an old-ish Lenovo W540 without too many hiccups. No, it’s not for everyone and never was. I wouldn’t suggest to anyone to run a BSD as a daily driver, or at all, unless they have a good reason to. Once you cross that line you need to know what and why.
- Xmd5a 6mo ago
  > Once you cross that line you need to know what and why. This is counterbalanced by the fact there is often one straightforward solution to every problem you run into, and those have been abundantly discussed online. Written as someone who just gave it a try.
  - supliminal 6mo ago
    It’s also that so many real-world use cases of BSDs entirely avoid these issues. If they were dominant concerns they would be addressed in a very professional manner, like the rest of the system. But the target market for these things just doesn’t overlap. Maybe there is a market for a BSD-esque approach to solving these things, but honestly? Meh.
- assimpleaspossi 6mo ago
  So you use FreeBSD on your laptop. You think people with reason should run it. You agree with others who have said you need to know the system to use it, and you do. So why does your response sound like you don't like it? I think you do cause you do. One of the guys on the FreeBSD forums said, "FreeBSD is for professionals and serious computer enthusiasts." and I don't see anything wrong with that.
vermaden 6mo ago
I own these and they also work great with FreeBSD: ThinkPads: - W520/W530/T520/T530/X220/X230/T420s - T480 - T14 GEN1 (Intel) - T14 GEN1 (AMD) I needed to replace MediaTek WiFi card on T14 (AMD) into some Intel WiFi one. Hope that helps. Regards, vermaden
- ggm 6mo ago
  Update the matrix on the source site?
- nosioptar 6mo ago
  That's quite helpful. I'm potentially switching my x220t and t530 to a BSD this year, might also get a gen 1 t14.
  - vermaden 6mo ago
    The good thing about T530 (and T520) is that You can put there the same Quad Core CPU that W520/W530 has :)
- autoexec 6mo ago
  Buying a thinkpad means using a device made by Lenovo, a company which has repeatedly shipped devices infected with malware and backdoors (sometimes for profit) see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_in...
  - broken-kebab 6mo ago
    He apparently wipes all of that when installing FreeBSD though.
    - autoexec 6mo ago
      I wouldn't trust their firmware/hardware anymore than I would their software. I wouldn't encourage them as a company either.
chajath 6mo ago
[dead]
fl4regun 6mo ago
So can anyone give me a short explanation on why someone would use freeBSD over linux? I do run it technically, on my router (OPNSense), but that's not a personal computer, like a desktop or laptop. What are the advantages to running FreeBSD?
- eugenekay 6mo ago
  FreeBSD will never switch to systemd. :-) It is an old-school UNIX experience, not great for desktops but excellent for long-lived “pet servers” where long-term stability over decades of service is valued. I treasure it for running small Web servers and shell hosts, instead of Debian/Ubuntu.
  - icedchai 6mo ago
    Same. I've been running it on a "pet" server since the mid 90's, for shell, web, email, etc. I started on FreeBSD 2.x and has been through many upgrades and migrations! I also worked at an early ISP and FreeBSD was our go-to for email, NNTP, and DNS.
- mghackerlady 6mo ago
  it's just a good unix experience, some people like that
- sausagefeet 6mo ago
  I have a few reasons: 1. I subjectively just like it better. Things like dtrace, jails, the init system, just click for me. 2. I think it's good to not support a Linux mono-culture. Yes, there is Windows and macOS, but in terms of open source OS's, I think it's good to have more than one choice and so for any rough edges in FreeBSD, I'm willing to deal with them to support that goal. 3. I don't think you'll find any actual, hard, technical reason to want to prefer FreeBSD over Linux on a desktop. Anything you can do in FreeBSD you can do in Linux. Heck, FreeBSD is probably even running the Linux version (for example video drivers). But really, which Linux do you mean? Nix? Gentoo? Red Hat?
  - 6mo ago
EngineerUSA 6mo ago
Anyone with a framework? I am considering it, but it is more expensive than my mac... which says something
- sausagefeet 6mo ago
  I am using it on a 12th Gen Intel (so a few years old), and it works great. I'm sure I have naturally acclimated and subconsciously work around things that I don't realize but suspend/resume works (I rebooted for the first time in like 3 months today). All the apps, yadda. For me, it's great.
LePetitPrince 6mo ago
[dead]
grigio 6mo ago
Too many issues with Wifi and suspend, a part that the usage an performance are quite similar to Linux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZk6LTfqW30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZk6LTfqW30
- trelane 6mo ago
  Yeah. The reason is that a lot (almost all?) consumer hardware is broken, but in ways that either minimally impact Windows or which are worked around in drivers.
unixhero 6mo ago
Ooh! I have lne of those T490 laptops. Except my wife had 1 liter of liquid detergent into it after putting a single bagged carton of it into my suitcase to bring on vacay. Great fun. The screen flickers.
ectospheno 6mo ago
I use a Dell Latitude 3550 on OpenBSD. Never tried the camera but I’ve used everything else without incident.
sharts 6mo ago
The funny thing is the BSDs would likely have better support if most folks complaining here actually used BSD for their infra. No, you don’t need linux to run your python webapp that you actually tested on your macbook.
- jmspring 6mo ago
  But docker! I've been using jails/etc and the pattern with way I setup and configure my FreeBSD servers hasn't significantly changed in 20 years.
  - evanjrowley 6mo ago
    >But docker Maybe one day! One of the things that has changed in the past 20 years with FreeBSD is the addition of bhyve. Virtualization on FreeBSD was not great prior to bhyve. Because FreeBSD waited to implement it, they ended up with an arguably more modern hypervisor versus what Linux had at the time. Maybe history will repeat when it comes to application containers / docker images. Podman came 5 years after Docker and the result was better. It could happen with FreeBSD too.
    - robot-wrangler 6mo ago
      Wow, searched this thread for docker hoping to realize I was behind the times and thinking surely it must work by now. It's so crazy that the BSDs have a reputation for stable, implying sysadmins and servers, then it won't support the one thing that every server needs. VMs running linux is the preferred path of least resistance then? Honestly you'd have to work hard to find a better way to alienate your target audience.
      - Gud 6mo ago
        Jails is far superior to the kludge that is docker. “Every server” only needs docker if you’re asking the wrong questions
        6mo ago
muppetman 6mo ago
I was surprised clicking on the link didn't lead to a blank page!
sandreas 6mo ago
Thank you for the listing. However I'd really appreciate two more columns: Release Year/CPU gen Display Options To see what tech of a laptop I'm buying in regards of performance and if it has a > 1920x1200 Option. What I'm missing in the list is the LG Gram lineup and the Dell 5530 (which is a steal when buying used here in Germany)
- vermaden 6mo ago
  Sure. 2011: - W520/T520 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080) - T420s (maximum resolution: 1600x900) - X220 (maximum resolution: 1366x768) 2012: - W530/T530 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080) - T430s (maximum resolution: 1600x900) - X230 (maximum resolution: 1366x768) 2018: - T480 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) 2020: - T14 GEN1 (Intel) (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) - T14 GEN1 (AMD) (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) Newer models also work like the light ThinkPad X1 Carbon GEN5/GEN6/GEN7/GEN8/... for example.

333 points by fork-bomber 6mo ago

spooneybarger 6mo ago

That's a very small list.

badgersnake 6mo ago
It’s a subset of a subset. The sets being (FreeBSD users (with laptops (who can be bothered to write about them on an obscure wiki)))
guenthert 6mo ago
Yeah, compare to https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops it is. Years ago, there was a project combining Debian with the kernel from FreeBSD. That never made sense to me and the project seems to have died meanwhile. More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. That way one would get fairly broad and current hardware support and could still enjoy a classic Unix look&feel and stable ABI.
- theragra 6mo ago
  Moreover, many laptops working on Linux perfectly, are not Ubuntu certified. Lenovo Legion series generally works well, but it is not in the Ubuntu list. Id we'd make a list of all 8/10 or more compatible laptops, it would be huge.
- skydhash 6mo ago
  > More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. A lot of BSD utilities that are not POSIX has really close interaction with the kernel. OpenBSD’s *ctl binaries are often the user-facing part of some OS subsystem. Linux subsystem often expose a very complex internal that you need to use some other project to tame down
- yjftsjthsd-h 6mo ago
  IMHO the biggest advantage that Debian/kFreeBSD would have had would be first-class ZFS support. You can use ZFS with Debian today, but the license problem means it only gets supported through DKMS, which is a pain; a FreeBSD-based Debian could ship binary packages for ZFS that just worked out of the box.
  - evanjrowley 6mo ago
    Considering the amount of Linux distros based on Debian, it is truly a shame that Debian/kFreeBSD stagnated. We could have had Proxmox/kFreeBSD with support for ZFS Boot environments! The evolution of FreeNAS/TrueNAS demonstrates things have been going in the opposite direction.
- tbe 6mo ago
  > More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. Chimera Linux is doing something like this, although without aiming for the full BSD experience, just utilising its core userland [1]. The project is in an alpha stage. 1: https://chimera-linux.org/about#alternative-userland https://chimera-linux.org/about#alternative-userland

bluGill 6mo ago

That is cool in ways, but many manufactures change the internals without changing the model number and so I'm not sure how much I can trust it. There is a recycled computers place near me that will sell me some of those cheap, but how can I be sure the one I'm buying is the same as the one tested (if indeed I can find any of those model numbers at all - which is a factor of what companies near me are recycling this month)

skydhash 6mo ago

I have the latitude 7490 and it worked great with Linux, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. The only issue is some hardware design issue where lifting it with one hand will cause it to freeze (possibly some stress causing a shock or a displacement). The best resource to check support is https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/dmesgd https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/dmesgd

shrubble 6mo ago
This happened exactly to me also, I suspect some flexing in the motherboard or other component; right now it is complaining about the RAM and reseating hasn’t fixed it. Great laptop otherwise however!
gentile 6mo ago
Consider balling up some electrical tape underneath the Ram stick. This solved this very specific issue with my laptop that was flexing too much and crashing.
- shrubble 6mo ago
  Between the RAM and the motherboard? Interesting, will try it.

PunchyHamster 6mo ago

> 9/10 > half of networking doesnt work, and it's the more important one for laptop(wifi) I think they need to revise the scoring

whalesalad 6mo ago
[flagged]
fullstop 6mo ago
It seems like the best way to get WiFi working in FreeBSD is to run Linux in bhyve and tunnel your connections through there.
- whalesalad 6mo ago
  the fact that this is a widely accepted/encouraged practice is genuinely unhinged
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 6mo ago
    Why? Nothing wrong with running your network interface in a VM. There are reasons for doing so even if drivers aren't an issue. Qubes OS does this, for instance, for security reasons.
    - wolvoleo 6mo ago
      Windows also does. Almost everything is a VM in windows these days. It's just how things work these days. If you'd say "I run my VPN client in a docker container" it would raise a lot less eyebrows. Yet it's not very different, really. Though conceptually I'd frown at having to run Linux. I'd prefer upgrading the hardware to a supported chip.
      - PunchyHamster 6mo ago
        Windows isn't running entire fucking separate kernel to run wifi driver, the fuck you're talking about

mmsc 6mo ago

FreeBSD works perfectly on intel MacBooks if you've got one laying around: https://joshua.hu/FreeBSD-on-MacbookPro-114-A1398 https://joshua.hu/FreeBSD-on-MacbookPro-114-A1398

whalesalad 6mo ago
Probably not T2 MacBooks though.
- LeFantome 6mo ago
  Those barely work with Linux. And I have found the WiFi to be incompatible with some networks.
bxparks 6mo ago
From the link: "Note: The inbuilt WiFi chip is not natively supported by FreeBSD, so you will need to (temporarily) use a USB WiFi or Ethernet dongle, or (as I will explain) copy some files from a different system to the Macbook. You could also just transplant a different chip into the system." You say "works perfectly". I do not think it means what you think it means. To be fair, Linux also has trouble with the Broadcom chip, the driver needs to be installed as a separate step on most distros.
- skydhash 6mo ago
  I think the intersection between BSD users and people who will buy a dongle or use Ethernet is a perfect circle.
- wolvoleo 6mo ago
  > Broadcom Here's the real problem. It's sad how a company that spawned the raspberry pi in earlier times got so evil so quickly.
  - shrubble 6mo ago
    Every Raspberry Pi ships with a closed source OS, ThreadX, that boots Linux, BTW.

irusensei 6mo ago

In my opinion pre alder lake intel is the sweet spot for FreeBSD. Not sure about AMD but anything before 2020 should work just fine. Just avoid CPUs with heterogenous core configurations for now.

shevy-java 6mo ago

Good old FreeBSD - always trying to catch up to Linux.

jmclnx 6mo ago
Glad to see this list, will keep an eye on it ! Now to be fair, in a few ways I think it is ahead. Now if you said "catch up to Linux in hardware support" I would fully agree. Last I heard, its VM (swap/memory) processes is still better, but seems many Linux people avoid swap space these days. FWIW, I always have swap on any system that allows it. And Jails, IMO nothing on Linux comes close to how good FreeBSD Jails is.
- bionsystem 6mo ago
  Incus is pretty damn good to be fair. You can mix and match VMs and containers, the terraform provider "just works", the setup is fast and easy, it plays well with ZFS. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it still lags jails (or Illumos Zones) in robustness or some capabilities but I'm a happy user of them now.
  - evanjrowley 6mo ago
    I use IncusOS when I need the Linux kernel for some specific hardware like the latest graphics or some AI accelerator. FreeBSD for when none of those things are necessary.
wolvoleo 6mo ago
Not really, it's just different. Not trying to be the same, which catching up implies.
unethical_ban 6mo ago
This isn't a holy war, and freeBSD does well for itself where it's good. It's definitely oriented to servers.

olivierestsage 6mo ago

It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this. I would get it if FreeBSD was a product you paid for, or someone was evangelizing about how you're missing out if you don't get the FreeBSD laptop experience, or something. As someone who liked FreeBSD in the past and curious to check it out again, I'm glad to have this handy list.

stackghost 6mo ago
>It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this I think it's because this chart continues a trend I've noticed with BSD zealots. Namely, there's some sort of reality distortion effect at play. Consider that there are obvious bullshit scores on TFA, like giving a laptop 9/10 when the fucking wifi doesn't work. In reality, this should be 5/10 or arguably 0/10. After all, what use is a laptop without wifi? If my laptop's wifi didn't work I wouldn't just buy a usb-ethernet adapter and never bring it anywhere; I would get a new laptop because a laptop without WiFi is useless. On top of that there was a while here where every BSD thread had: - a comment about how BSD powers the PlayStation, Netflix, and other FAANGs, except those corps don't contribute enough back because of the license so won't you please subsidize these giant corps by donating to BSD? - people who argue BSD is superior because it's "more cohesive" and "feels cleaner" or similar - OpenBSD zealots claiming it's 110% secure because trust me bro Mostly I'm just tired of people claiming BSD is this amazing new thing with no flaws, when reality is that it has got some niche use cases, I suspect lots of its developers don't even dogfood it, and is otherwise superceded by Linux in nearly every meaningful way. I have no problem with BSD, and I have two boxes in my basement running freeBSD right now, but I'm not delusional about BSD's limitations.
- asveikau 6mo ago
  > Mostly I'm just tired of people claiming BSD is this amazing new thing I don't think I've heard anybody claim BSD is new. > Netflix, and other FAANGs, except those corps don't contribute enough back because of the license I believe Netflix has upstreamed a lot to FreeBSD. They don't do it because the license compels them, they do it because upstreaming your changes makes maintenance easier. > If my laptop's wifi didn't work I wouldn't just buy a usb-ethernet adapter and never bring it anywhere I'm going to guess with this rant that you weren't using Linux in the olden days, because that's what it was like. The workaround isn't using wired ethernet by the way..you can get a USB wifi adapter or you can buy an m.2 wifi card. On on one of my machines I got a cheap m.2 Intel ax200 (just checked, about $15 on eBay) because it runs faster on FreeBSD than the one that shipped with my laptop.

wolvoleo 6mo ago

Interesting. I use FreeBSD on my desktop too but it's really a desktop so I don't have to bother with WiFi or bluetooth. I generally dislike laptops for ergonomic reasons, and I never bring my computers anywhere anyway so I just buy NUCs. Not having to buy for a display, keyboard, trackpad, battery helps keep the price down. I like it for several reasons. It's a holistic system which means it's much easier to understand, not a collection of random parts thrown together. There is only really one (big) distro so documentation is easy to come by and consistent. I love the way the updates of the system are uncoupled from the userland software so you can have rolling packages but a stable OS. Also the ports collection is great (being able to manually compile every package with different flags where needed). And jails. And ZFS first-class citizen. Also I like the attitude. Less involvement from big tech, less strive to change for change's sake. It feels a lot more stable, every new version there's only a few things changed. It's not that with every major update I have to learn everything anew again because someone wanted to include their new init system (like systemd), configuration tools (like ifconfig -> ip), packaging system (like snap) etc. Things that work fine are just left alone. It has some really good ideas also, like boot environments. But it's not linux. It's not meant to be. But yeah if you want everything all figured out for you, don't use FreeBSD. Just take a commercial linux like ubuntu. You'll need to tinker a bit, which I like because it helps me understand my system. FreeBSD is a bit like Linux was in the early 2000s, it mostly works but you often have to dive into a shell for some magic. The good thing is having ZFS snapshots as a safety net though. Never really get caught out that way.

vehemenz 6mo ago
> FreeBSD is a bit like Linux was in the early 2000s, it mostly works but you often have to dive into a shell for some magic. Which, ironically, is what Linux users have been saying for ages with respect to Windows, but the market share speaks for itself.
- broken-kebab 6mo ago
  I don't get what they have been ironically saying. Direct reading suggests it's that Linux is like Windows in 2000 but it doesn't make sense to me, I never heard a comparison like that.

sroerick 6mo ago

There's an axiom here which is that the better your overall user experience is, the less hardware support you are going to have. The more accessible software becomes the more infra is required to support it, and the more complex and convoluted the software will be

Jotalea 6mo ago

I'd say Juana Manso laptops are usable with FreeBSD. sure, you lose brightness control, you can't see how much battery remains, (I didn't try wifi but the 9650AC chip seems to be supported), but it is usable. audio works, USB works, video works when you load the Intel drivers.

sunshine-o 6mo ago

I personally feel like the race to support a vast array of hardware is very costly for such a small team and might be a waste of their precious resources. Of course I love FreeBSD and want it to be supported on my desktop or laptop but at what cost? Here is the question I have always wanted to ask: Why not make the ultimate compromise and say: you will be able to run FreeBSD on almost all laptops but it is gonna be through let say an Alpine Linux hypervisor and we are gonna ship it with all the glue you need to have a great experience. About every CPU has great visualization capabilities nowadays and the perf are amazing. Now some might start screaming at the idea but you already run your favorite operating system through a stack of software you do not trust or control: UEFI, CPU microcode, etc. I believe we need OS diversity and if so much of the energy of project is spent on working on an infinite hardware support, how much is left for the real innovation?

kombine 6mo ago
I agree. Linux has a wealth of hardware drivers and the time would be better spent on a translation layer or do it via running a VM or even using LLMs to port the drivers over to FreeBSD en masse. That way BSD team can focus on their unique strengths.
- atmosx 6mo ago
  My guess is that *BSDs will see a huge boosts in HW support in the following years, primarily due to LLMs.
assimpleaspossi 6mo ago
It's already done through the linuxalator. You run Linux applications through that. Or you can run Linux through bhyve.

supliminal 6mo ago

Yeah you run into this head on trying to use BSD. It’s too much glue and compat work. By the end of it you no longer have a coherent system, you’re back to Linux. I use FBSD on an old-ish Lenovo W540 without too many hiccups. No, it’s not for everyone and never was. I wouldn’t suggest to anyone to run a BSD as a daily driver, or at all, unless they have a good reason to. Once you cross that line you need to know what and why.

Xmd5a 6mo ago
> Once you cross that line you need to know what and why. This is counterbalanced by the fact there is often one straightforward solution to every problem you run into, and those have been abundantly discussed online. Written as someone who just gave it a try.
- supliminal 6mo ago
  It’s also that so many real-world use cases of BSDs entirely avoid these issues. If they were dominant concerns they would be addressed in a very professional manner, like the rest of the system. But the target market for these things just doesn’t overlap. Maybe there is a market for a BSD-esque approach to solving these things, but honestly? Meh.
assimpleaspossi 6mo ago
So you use FreeBSD on your laptop. You think people with reason should run it. You agree with others who have said you need to know the system to use it, and you do. So why does your response sound like you don't like it? I think you do cause you do. One of the guys on the FreeBSD forums said, "FreeBSD is for professionals and serious computer enthusiasts." and I don't see anything wrong with that.

vermaden 6mo ago

I own these and they also work great with FreeBSD: ThinkPads: - W520/W530/T520/T530/X220/X230/T420s - T480 - T14 GEN1 (Intel) - T14 GEN1 (AMD) I needed to replace MediaTek WiFi card on T14 (AMD) into some Intel WiFi one. Hope that helps. Regards, vermaden

ggm 6mo ago
Update the matrix on the source site?
nosioptar 6mo ago
That's quite helpful. I'm potentially switching my x220t and t530 to a BSD this year, might also get a gen 1 t14.
- vermaden 6mo ago
  The good thing about T530 (and T520) is that You can put there the same Quad Core CPU that W520/W530 has :)
autoexec 6mo ago
Buying a thinkpad means using a device made by Lenovo, a company which has repeatedly shipped devices infected with malware and backdoors (sometimes for profit) see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_in...
- broken-kebab 6mo ago
  He apparently wipes all of that when installing FreeBSD though.
  - autoexec 6mo ago
    I wouldn't trust their firmware/hardware anymore than I would their software. I wouldn't encourage them as a company either.

chajath 6mo ago

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fl4regun 6mo ago

So can anyone give me a short explanation on why someone would use freeBSD over linux? I do run it technically, on my router (OPNSense), but that's not a personal computer, like a desktop or laptop. What are the advantages to running FreeBSD?

eugenekay 6mo ago
FreeBSD will never switch to systemd. :-) It is an old-school UNIX experience, not great for desktops but excellent for long-lived “pet servers” where long-term stability over decades of service is valued. I treasure it for running small Web servers and shell hosts, instead of Debian/Ubuntu.
- icedchai 6mo ago
  Same. I've been running it on a "pet" server since the mid 90's, for shell, web, email, etc. I started on FreeBSD 2.x and has been through many upgrades and migrations! I also worked at an early ISP and FreeBSD was our go-to for email, NNTP, and DNS.
mghackerlady 6mo ago
it's just a good unix experience, some people like that
sausagefeet 6mo ago
I have a few reasons: 1. I subjectively just like it better. Things like dtrace, jails, the init system, just click for me. 2. I think it's good to not support a Linux mono-culture. Yes, there is Windows and macOS, but in terms of open source OS's, I think it's good to have more than one choice and so for any rough edges in FreeBSD, I'm willing to deal with them to support that goal. 3. I don't think you'll find any actual, hard, technical reason to want to prefer FreeBSD over Linux on a desktop. Anything you can do in FreeBSD you can do in Linux. Heck, FreeBSD is probably even running the Linux version (for example video drivers). But really, which Linux do you mean? Nix? Gentoo? Red Hat?
- 6mo ago

EngineerUSA 6mo ago

Anyone with a framework? I am considering it, but it is more expensive than my mac... which says something

sausagefeet 6mo ago
I am using it on a 12th Gen Intel (so a few years old), and it works great. I'm sure I have naturally acclimated and subconsciously work around things that I don't realize but suspend/resume works (I rebooted for the first time in like 3 months today). All the apps, yadda. For me, it's great.

LePetitPrince 6mo ago

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grigio 6mo ago

Too many issues with Wifi and suspend, a part that the usage an performance are quite similar to Linux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZk6LTfqW30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZk6LTfqW30

trelane 6mo ago
Yeah. The reason is that a lot (almost all?) consumer hardware is broken, but in ways that either minimally impact Windows or which are worked around in drivers.

unixhero 6mo ago

Ooh! I have lne of those T490 laptops. Except my wife had 1 liter of liquid detergent into it after putting a single bagged carton of it into my suitcase to bring on vacay. Great fun. The screen flickers.

ectospheno 6mo ago

I use a Dell Latitude 3550 on OpenBSD. Never tried the camera but I’ve used everything else without incident.

sharts 6mo ago

The funny thing is the BSDs would likely have better support if most folks complaining here actually used BSD for their infra. No, you don’t need linux to run your python webapp that you actually tested on your macbook.

jmspring 6mo ago
But docker! I've been using jails/etc and the pattern with way I setup and configure my FreeBSD servers hasn't significantly changed in 20 years.
- evanjrowley 6mo ago
  >But docker Maybe one day! One of the things that has changed in the past 20 years with FreeBSD is the addition of bhyve. Virtualization on FreeBSD was not great prior to bhyve. Because FreeBSD waited to implement it, they ended up with an arguably more modern hypervisor versus what Linux had at the time. Maybe history will repeat when it comes to application containers / docker images. Podman came 5 years after Docker and the result was better. It could happen with FreeBSD too.
  - robot-wrangler 6mo ago
    Wow, searched this thread for docker hoping to realize I was behind the times and thinking surely it must work by now. It's so crazy that the BSDs have a reputation for stable, implying sysadmins and servers, then it won't support the one thing that every server needs. VMs running linux is the preferred path of least resistance then? Honestly you'd have to work hard to find a better way to alienate your target audience.
    - Gud 6mo ago
      Jails is far superior to the kludge that is docker. “Every server” only needs docker if you’re asking the wrong questions
      - 6mo ago

muppetman 6mo ago

I was surprised clicking on the link didn't lead to a blank page!

sandreas 6mo ago

Thank you for the listing. However I'd really appreciate two more columns: Release Year/CPU gen Display Options To see what tech of a laptop I'm buying in regards of performance and if it has a > 1920x1200 Option. What I'm missing in the list is the LG Gram lineup and the Dell 5530 (which is a steal when buying used here in Germany)

vermaden 6mo ago
Sure. 2011: - W520/T520 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080) - T420s (maximum resolution: 1600x900) - X220 (maximum resolution: 1366x768) 2012: - W530/T530 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080) - T430s (maximum resolution: 1600x900) - X230 (maximum resolution: 1366x768) 2018: - T480 (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) 2020: - T14 GEN1 (Intel) (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) - T14 GEN1 (AMD) (maximum resolution: 1920x1080 or more) Newer models also work like the light ThinkPad X1 Carbon GEN5/GEN6/GEN7/GEN8/... for example.