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FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

• supernetworks 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  • tomhow 6mo ago
    Please avoid low-substance, self-promotional comments like this on HN. It's OK to mention your own product/service occasionally, but only if it's in context and as a part of a comment that makes a substantive, insightful contribution to the discussion. Also, we recommend using a username that seems human, rather than being based on a company/brand name, otherwise it seems like you are here primarily for promotional purposes rather than curious conversation. You can email us to change the username if you'd like – hn@ycombinator.com.
    • supernetworks 6mo ago
      Thanks Tom. This whole comment thread is a bit of a dumpster fire of opinions however we have been working on the wifi security problem for a long time and we have a lot to say about it. Router manufacturers competing into involution that ship RCE (much of which is triggerable from a web page) have created a substantial risk to consumers, in this case with a lens on the US market. We tackle hardware & software and prioritized network isolation as the first thing to resolve. We have tons on our blog and page about network security and have open source software.
      • tomhow 6mo ago
        > however we have been working on the wifi security problem for a long time and we have a lot to say about it Great, please share it with us! If what you've said is true, the kind of comment you're uniquely qualified to share is the very thing the thread most needs.
        • supernetworks 6mo ago
          You can check our comment history https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=supernetworks https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=supernetworks
          • tomhow 6mo ago
            Right; about 20 comments over nearly three years, and nothing substantive in the current thread. The whole point I'm trying to make is that you're qualified to make a substantive comment in the current thread and instead you've just posted a low-substance promotional comment.
            • Ms-J 6mo ago
              This was amazing in it's effect. Please do this again for the next series of less than substantive comments elsewhere :)
• buzer 6mo ago
  > all consumer-grade routers produced in foreign countries Are there even consumer-grade routers that are produced in the USA...?
  • kbumsik 6mo ago
    Right? Even enterprise routers, e.g. Cisco, are not produced in USA.
  • Mistletoe 6mo ago
    Time for the made in USA tin can and a string.
    • daemonologist 6mo ago
      Hey, let's not undersell America's high-tech manufacturing capability. We could easily produce morse code keys and copper wire, for a price of course.
    • array_key_first 6mo ago
      Assembled in the US, the tin comes from Indonesia.
  • amluto 6mo ago
    But we can still buy old models: > As outlined below, today’s action does not impact a consumer’s continued use of routers they previously acquired. Nor does it prevent retailers from continuing to sell, import, or market router models approved previously through the FCC’s equipment authorization process. By operation of the FCC’s Covered List rules, the restrictions imposed today apply to new device models. I’m sure plenty of US factories are capable of importing boxes that look like routers but are actually just switches (because the router firmware is missing) and re-flashing them here…
    • userbinator 6mo ago
      I suspect "evergreen" model numbering/naming will become even more common in the future.
• weightedreply 6mo ago
  Will this impact the Mono Gateway[0]? [0] https://mono.si/ https://mono.si/
  • dfc 6mo ago
    It looks like it probably won't matter. The site says you can preorder a DevKit "Shipping between June and September 2025." The fact that they haven't updated that webpage with new information since October 1st 2025 seems to indicate bad news...
    • indrora 6mo ago
      The founder puts regular updates on his YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/RS2igvW3DIk https://youtu.be/RS2igvW3DIk Shortly put, they're going through hardware startup woes but will probably make it out the other end just fine.
    • RyJones 6mo ago
      I preordered one, I got it, and I sold it. They are active on Discord. Why did I sell it? The shortcomings of the platform made me realize I should just go with UI, despite my reservations about the company.
  • mzajc 6mo ago
    It's hard to tell considering there is absolutely no company/ownership information on the site, but a .si (Slovenia) domain coupled with EUR being an accepted currency has me thinking they're Europe-based, and therefore foreign-made. ... at the same time, I don't think I'd send $100 to a site with no contact/ownership/company info to begin with.
• deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
• WarOnPrivacy 6mo ago
  The FCC maintains a list of equipment and services (Covered List) that have been determined to “pose an unacceptable risk to the national security Recently, malicious state and non-state sponsored cyber attackers have increasingly leveraged the vulnerabilities in small and home office routers produced abroad to carry out direct attacks against American civilians in their homes. Vulnerabilities have nothing to do with country of manufacture. They have always been due to manufacturers' crap security practices. Security experts have been trying to call attention to this problem for 2 decades. Manufacturers have never had to care about security because no Gov agency would ever mandate secure firmware. This includes the FCC which license their devices and the FTC who (until recently) had the direct mandate to protect consumers. Our most recent step backward was to gut those agencies of any ability to provide consumer oversight. All they they can do now is craft protectionist policies that favor campaign donors. The US has a bazillion devices with crap security because we set ourselves up for this.
  • orthogonal_cube 6mo ago
    That’s the ironic part. Plenty of consumer-grade devices have had very lax security settings or backdoors baked in for purposes of “troubleshooting” and recovery assistance. It’s never been limited to foreign-made devices. Security has never been part of the review process. The only time any agency has really cared is when encryption is involved, and that’s just been the FBI wanting it to be neutered so they can have their own backdoors.
  • longislandguido 6mo ago
    > Vulnerabilities have nothing to do with country of manufacture. They have always been due to manufacturers' crap security practices. Sorry but this is merely a convenient excuse. Source: I have hard evidence of a Chinese IoT device where crap security practices were later leveraged by the same company to inject exploit code. It's called plausible deniability and it's foolish to tell me it's a coincidence. You're not going to convince me that a foreign state actor pressuring a company to include a backdoor wouldn't disguise it as a "whoopsie, our crap code lol" as opposed to adding in the open with a disclaimer on it. It's all closed source firmware. Even the GPL packages from most consumer router vendors are loaded with binary blobs. Tell me I should trust it.
• Someone1234 6mo ago
  Considering this is after Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo (2024), it will be interesting to see if this holds up to judicial scrutiny. The FCC's power just got substantially nerfed, and "we've decided to slow lane all foreign-made routers" feels like that may have been beaten on the old, higher, standard. Let alone the new one that gives the FCC almost no power.
  • malcolmgreaves 6mo ago
    Nerfed to do their job. The corrupt republican Supreme Court judges are very happy to give more power to the executive to collect bribes, however.
    • grosswait 6mo ago
      [flagged]
      • SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        [flagged]
• WarOnPrivacy 6mo ago
  If we wanted secure products, we wouldn't ban devices. We'd mandate they open their firmware to audits.
  • dmitrygr 6mo ago
    problem is: how do you prove the firmware in the flash chip matches source? And I do not mean me, with a disassembler and a pi pico to read out the flash chip. I mean the 70-yaer-old corner shop owner that buys this router to provide free WiFi for customers?
    • WarOnPrivacy 6mo ago
      > how do you prove the firmware in the flash chip matches source? Trusted, qualified independent experts: Ala Underwriters Laboratories.
      • dmitrygr 6mo ago
        One word for you: dieselgate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
        • actionfromafar 6mo ago
          Someone did go to jail, so there's at least that.
          • dmitrygr 6mo ago
            Yes. But a lot of people still got cars that were not as represented. So if we follow the same pattern, somebody will go to jail, but most routers will not be running verified or safe code.
            • Snafuh 6mo ago
              Do you apply the same scrutiny to the food you eat? Some trust has to be created through testing standards and the law, but generally we do believe what the label says in day to day life.
• jscheel 6mo ago
  And exactly how many consumer routers are not foreign made?
• sam345 6mo ago
  If you actually read the notice, it exempts models that have been approved. So this just seems to require approvals by DOH or DHS ,": Routers^ produced in a foreign country, except routers which have been granted a Conditional Approval by DoW or DHS." I take this to mean it is just adding security approvals for this type of thing to DOw and DHS. It is not a ban of all future models. It's just saying explicitly that instead of having to review models already in the market and determine that they should be removed because of nation state or other security concerns they are reviewing them before they go to market. Would be nice if people actually read it instead of hyperventilating.
  • danso 6mo ago
    Why shouldn’t people have a reaction to a policy that mandates a new approval process on a large class of consumer products?
    • deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    • wtallis 6mo ago
      Especially since the announcement provides no information about how the DoD or DHS will be evaluating what to approve, and it's unlikely that they have the resources to do any meaningful security evaluation on that many products.
      • sam345 6mo ago
        The DOH and DOW have a lot of resources. And I would guess the DOW has a lot of intelligence resources and most likely the DOH also I mean it is their job to keep the homeland safe. But I would agree. It probably will involve a lot of marshaling of those resources and reorganization. But who's to say they haven't done that already. My general point is that the conversation in this thread completely ignores that this is an imposition of a different regulatory scheme, not a banning. And actually it's in favor of enforcing more security on routers which everybody has been screaming for for years.
    • 6mo ago
• bibimsz 6mo ago
  I'd gladly buy an American-made router if one existed!
• adrianmonk 6mo ago
  This part of the press release seems pretty crucial: > Producers of consumer-grade routers that receive Conditional Approval from DoW or DHS can continue to receive FCC equipment authorizations. In other words, foreign-made consumer routers are banned by default. But if you are a manufacturer, you can apply to get unbanned ("Conditional Approval"). In the FAQ (https://www.fcc.gov/faqs-recent-updates-fcc-covered-list-regarding-routers-produced-foreign-countries https://www.fcc.gov/faqs-recent-updates-fcc-covered-list-reg...), they even include guidance on how to apply: https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/Guidance-for-Conditional-Approvals-Submissions0326.pdf https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/Guidance-for-Conditi... If you (a manufacturer) apply, they want information regarding corporate location, jursidiction, and ownership. They want a bill of materials with country of origin and a justification for why any foreign-sourced components can't be domestic. They want information about who provides software and updates. And they want to hear your plan to increase US domestic manufacturing and progress toward that goal. So, foreign-made consumer routers can still be sold, but they are going to look at them with a fine-tooth comb, and they are going to use FCC approval as leverage to try to increase domestic manufacturing.
  • giantrobot 6mo ago
    Any router made by a company that "donates" (bribes) to Trump's "ballroom" or other vanity projects will get approved. Irrespective of anything else. This is just another grift.
  • wahern 6mo ago
    > So, foreign-made consumer routers can still be sold, but they are going to look at them with a fine-tooth comb, and they are going to use FCC approval as leverage to try to increase domestic manufacturing. You're assuming a non-partisan technocratic process, which this administration has amply shown is neither capable nor willing to provide. This requirement becomes another opportunity for Pay-to-Play, either in cash or quid pro quo, to the government directly (see, e.g., NVidia and AMD export allowances) or to Trump's inner circle (see, e.g., crypto venture regulation, merger approvals).
    • dcrazy 6mo ago
• raphman 6mo ago
  Does the router ban really only pertain to consumer-grade networking devices? > For the purpose of this determination, the term “Routers” is defined by National Institute of Science and Technology’s Internal Report 8425A to include consumer-grade networking devices that are primarily intended for residential use and can be installed by the customer. Routers forward data packets, most commonly Internet Protocol (IP) packets, between networked systems. ¹ > A “consumer-grade router” is a router intended for residential use and can be installed by the customer. Routers forward data packets, most commonly Internet Protocol (IP) packets, between networked systems. Throughout this document, the term “router” is used as a shorthand for “consumer-grade router.” ² There doesn't seem to be a general ban for foreign-made professional routers, just for some Chinese manufacturers, right³? Oh, and what does "produced by foreign countries" even mean? I couldn't find any definition. Is this meant to be the country of final assembly? Would importing a Chinese router and the flashing the firmware in the USA be sufficient to be exempt? Where is the line drawn usually? ¹) https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/NSD-Routers0326.pdf https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/NSD-Routers0326.pdf ²) https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2024/NIST.IR.8425A.pdf https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2024/NIST.IR.8425A.pdf ³) https://www.fcc.gov/supplychain/coveredlist https://www.fcc.gov/supplychain/coveredlist
• Schnitz 6mo ago
  So router prices in the US will go up a lot, great!
• anonym29 6mo ago
  What the fuck?! I did not sign up to live in some third world shithole where I can't get first-world networking equipment. I do not want some piece of shit closed-source proprietary netgear ameritrash. FUCK! Give me back my god damn chinese routers! Chinese citizens have more computing freedom than American citizens at this point. What the fuck happened to the land of the free?
  • mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
    Why wasn't anyone notified about this being in the works? What bulletins did I fail to notice. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE
  • 0cf8612b2e1e 6mo ago
    I doubt anything will be pulled from the market. This is instead notice to the companies that now is the time for a donation to the administration’s ballroom.
    • anonym29 6mo ago
      Right now, the way this is currently worded, every single foreign-made consumer router has already been pulled from the market, and has to request permission to be reintroduced. The only consumer routers not currently affected are those that are either already purchased (some good, but won't last forever) or are American-made (overpriced, underpowered dogshit)
      • racingmars 6mo ago
        From the news release "What does this mean?" section: "This update to the Covered List does not prohibit the import, sale, or use of any existing device models the FCC previously authorized." So no, this does not pull all existing routers off the market. Anything that already got FCC approval remains approved and new stock may be imported and sold.
  • 0xy 6mo ago
    The computing freedom = a plausibly deniable backdoor. https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2023-1389 https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2023-1389
• mrsssnake 6mo ago
  What is a router? Really, do they have a definition?
  • protocolture 6mo ago
    Device that connects multiple networks? Layer 3 of the OSI model? Consumer ones tend to have more than that, but the more specific definition would work fine. Yeah conceivably you could use this to ban any network device that is capable of routing between interfaces, so lots of switches with new firmware could do it, often terribly, as well as PCs with multiple interfaces. But its probably going to involve intention.
    • dmonitor 6mo ago
      Any PC with a NIC is one VLAN and masquerade rule away from being a router
      • adrian_b 6mo ago
        That is true, but you can also add USB Ethernet interfaces to any PC, which is even simpler. For example, my router/firewall, which also implements various other network services, e.g. hosting my own e-mail server, is an old Intel NUC with 5 Ethernet ports, 4 of which are made with USB Ethernet interfaces.
  • walterbell 6mo ago
    Good question for devices that ship with multiple network interfaces, multiple video outputs, no RAM and no software.
    • RiverCrochet 6mo ago
      If multiple network interfaces defines a router, then every cell phone is one, because every cell phone has a cellular and Wifi interface, and is a router in hotspot mode. Three interfaces if you count USB which can also be a network interface (hotspot works over USB in both Windows and Linux) and four if Bluetooth PAN is still a thing.
• kittikitti 6mo ago
  Because of this, I'm going to plan my next network upgrade based on open source hardware like Banana Pi. My setup is based on WiFi 7 so this might not apply for a few years. From my understanding, the hardware from proprietary manufacturers is sufficiently advanced to do some advanced surveillance and spyware, whereas previous generations didn't require advanced processing to achieve fiber optic speeds. Back to the original statement, it's clear that the threat of surveillance exists. Personally, I don't make the distinction between foreign and domestically produced routers in America. In fact, I trust foreign produced routers more because the likelihood that they can act upon their surveillance is significantly lower than the current American regime's oppressive and malicious tactics. Therefore, open source routers provides enough transparency to effectively eliminate spyware threats from all angles while being compliant. I'm especially excited about the Banana Pi because of the transparency and potential of modular upgrades. Whenever there's a network issue, I have to consider whether the manufacturer (American or not) is doing something nefarious. With a Pi based router, I have much more peace of mind with network debugging issues.
  • heybales 6mo ago
    IMHO an underrated comment. The CCP isn't going to break down my door in the middle of the night, but I'm sure I'm on lists at the FBI and ATF just for my political org memberships alone. I think a foreign actor is more likely to use compromised hardware to create service interruptions and general chaos in the event they are attacked by our government, not come put me in a gulag. The only thing I'm missing right now that would be a nice to have is a wifi card so I can ditch my access point. My hardware isn't open source by any means, but my reliance on non-free networking code is minimal.
    • dmonitor 6mo ago
      If the world were to truly come to those stakes, I would just forgo wireless entirely. Running Cat5/6 through the walls is barely an inconvenience, and cell phones are compromised by design, needing to communicate with a cell tower.
    • autoexec 6mo ago
• freedomben 6mo ago
  So... What are the options now for American consumers? What brands are left and available?
• analog31 6mo ago
  Ask HN: Is there a list of preferred routers for security?
  • wmf 6mo ago
    Nest
    • walterbell 6mo ago
      Probably made in Vietnam, like Amazon Eero.
      • wmf 6mo ago
        Where it's manufactured has nothing to do with security.
        • walterbell 6mo ago
          FCC maintains a list of equipment and services (Covered List) that have been determined to “pose an unacceptable risk to the national security.." FCC Updates Covered List to Include Foreign-Made Consumer Routers..
          • wmf 6mo ago
            I disagree with the FCC. Banning "China routers" will not meaningfully increase security. Actual security has no correlation with country of manufacture.
          • reverius42 6mo ago
            "national security" and "security" mean very, very different things in this context though.
  • dmonitor 6mo ago
    I don't think the hardware matters so much as the firmware, which is solved by installing OpenWRT on anything that supports it. If wireless security is the concern, maybe other people here know better but I don't believe anything convenient will be "secure" in the strongest sense of the word.
• kemotep 6mo ago
  Does anyone even have a list of US produced routers? Like does installing OpenWRT or OPNSense or VyOS matter? I can’t think of a complete start to finish, OS to mosfets, computer that is 100% manufactured in the United States.
  • tencentshill 6mo ago
    If their "made in america" goal was anything but a sham, system76 would be getting huge government contracts right now.
    • kemotep 6mo ago
      The FCC seems to count some level of assembly and packaging as qualifying as “Made in the US” so as long as it’s not a complete sham it should count. Of course, getting a router SOC with firmware from the factory , soldering on the Ethernet ports and adding RAM and storage, installing an OS, throwing it in a case with a power supply into a box isn’t solving the problem of insecure foreign firmware but is meeting the “Made in US” demand. So what counts and who gets exemptions will be telling.
• razorbeamz 6mo ago
  I'm sure people will get right on buying American-made routers.
• giantg2 6mo ago
  Are there consumer grade routers made in the US?
• tim-tday 6mo ago
  Aren’t all routers manufactured in foreign countries? Cisco are assembled in China as far as I know.
• patrakov 6mo ago
  Prediction: there will appear new "Made in the USA" routers that differ from some Chinese model only by the label. Already the case in Russia for e.g. powerbanks.
• BOFH69420 6mo ago
  I would be more impressed if they would ban all enterprise routers manufactured in China. I have had to continuously patch and meticulously mitigate severe vulnerabilities and bugs in Cisco, Dell, HPE, Extreme, Arista routers, switches, fabrics, and others. These are all manufactured in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, and probably elsewhere in the Greater China region... Actually I take it all back. I wish they would just ban companies from shipping bad code and sanction them for causing millions of hours of required labor to ensure their manufacturing defects do not harm businesses and their customers. Thank you for your attention to my chatter.
• rpcope1 6mo ago
  What exactly does "produced" mean in this context? That the final assembly was done here, software was written here, PCB was assembled here, SoCs and ICs wwre manufactured here, or something else? Regardless, while consumer routers are 9 of 10 times insecure garbage, it's hard to think of any that aren't manufactured outside the US.
• i_love_retros 6mo ago
  Given everything else going on in America right now I'm not sure I'd trust an American made router more than any other. Is this just another mass surveillance operation?
• supernetworks 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  • beart 6mo ago
    Hey, sorry I'm a bit lost trying to follow your comment. Who are "We" that you are referring to?
    • supernetworks 6mo ago
      Supernetworks -- ill update. Our initial comment got moderated for too much self promotion so also apologies there and again for anyone who is offended
    • gnabgib 6mo ago
      I think the we is a bot.. they already posted this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47497129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47497129 And suggested a mod should read comment history: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47497296 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47497296
      • supernetworks 6mo ago
        Not a bot. Anyway if you have questions about router security rather than moderation happy to "delve" into that.
        • gnabgib 6mo ago
          Yes, please share more of what you've found about wifi security.
• dlcarrier 6mo ago
  For the device manufacturers, the obvious solution is to sell them as general-purpose computers. You can already get devices that had started out as Raspberry Pi clones but evolved into excellent DIY network appliances, with multiple high-speed Ethernet and SSD ports that are great for running a NAS, proxy server, firewall, or all three, and more. Rarely do they have good WiFi, but if manufacturers start selling hardware that has been traditionally sold as a locked-down routers or access points, but include a generic Linux installation, it'll compete will well with the aforementioned hardware.
  • ssl-3 6mo ago
    Companies want to sell what consumers want to buy. But the average consumer doesn't want a general-purpose computer for this job; they instead want to buy a "router". If companies market the devices as something other than "routers" then consumers will not buy them for routing duty. (Meanwhile, the non-average people who want to use general-purpose computers as homespun router/NAS/do-all boxes are already aware of how this all works...and many of us have been doing it this way for decades. (Often, this happens alongside dedicated access points that do have good wifi radios.))
    • nubinetwork 6mo ago
      > But the average consumer doesn't want a general-purpose computer for this job; they instead want to buy a "router". So start your own company called usa router co, and sell some random arm board with a preinstalled router image... the end user won't know the difference.
      • ssl-3 6mo ago
        Oh, for sure. That's easy enough; it's what GL.inet does: They sell router-shaped computers that run a skinned openwrt -- out of the box. (There's been some questions about GPL compliance over the years, but that's a separate issue.) And superficially, it sounds like a straight-forward thing for me or anyone else to do here in the states, but things get murky quickly: What differentiates a foreign-made router from a US-made router? Can I get some flunky push the button in his studio apartment in Idaho to flash open (but globally-sourced!) firmware onto some boxes from Alibaba (in exchange for startup promises) and call that good enough? Do I have to spin up the boards here in the States? And the ICs, too? How about the passive jelly-bean parts like the capacitors and resistors and the antennas? What of the rest of the device? Like, things such as the housing, the packaging, the power supply, and the included ethernet cable: Do I need to source those from domestic US production or is it OK if they're foreign-made components? Do I have to produce the software in the States? (If so, Linux is right out.) Where is the line drawn? How is the line shaped?
• yunwal 6mo ago
  Incredibly obvious domestic surveillance scheme. Quite creepy
• daft_pink 6mo ago
  Wouldn’t you purchase an American made router if you could? I switched away from Omada to Ubiquiti, because of TP Link’s problems.
• ineedaj0b 6mo ago
  If war breaks out you better bet a bunch of equipment will turn off. Numerous papers showing the ability to easily map indoors areas with WiFi (including occupancy) it’s a liability. There will be excuses “tariffs” etc but I heard a few have gotten calls from three letter agencies coyly telling you to improve your systems. It’s a chance to refresh the product line! (of course at the worst time when mem prices are bleed you dry high)
  • reverius42 6mo ago
    "Will turn off"... are you claiming that consumer-grade routers have a secret backdoor kill switch that one government or another can use to turn them off? That's a little hard to believe (even when they are security Swiss cheese).
    • ineedaj0b 6mo ago
      Seeing the operational capability of Mossad in Iran means if desired, one should assume the US and China are equally capable. The US didn’t make a space force to please the ego, it was likely to occur eventually. They aren’t spending all their time wargaming a moon invasion lol Logistically, hacking tons of different model routers is not feasible. It would be more useful to yank the power grid.. which can be accomplished with missiles or software.
      • reverius42 6mo ago
        I'm not sure what you're suggesting, exactly, but we seem to have escalated from "kill the consumer-grade WiFi routers" to "kill the entire US power grid" in one post? If anyone did that, with missiles or software, things are going to escalate very quickly from there.
    • FuriouslyAdrift 6mo ago
      The DOCSIS (Data Over Cable Service Interface Specification) standard for cable internet end user routers specifies total remote control. Most ISP originated routers are set up this way.
• jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
  If I were a nation worried about the health and security of routers, I'd be making sure that open source has a place. But largely thanks to FCC demands, the list of router hardware that can run open source operating systems such as OpenWRT has dwindled to a trickle. There's very precious few wifi 7 / BE systems available, and only a few wifi 6! it's ghastly. https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_be https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_be https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_ax https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_ax To me, this is a deeply dangerous situation for the state & for the population, where it is nearly impossible for consumers and businesses to purchase gear that they can secure. Where we are at the mercy of what is on the market, and no actual securing of our own can occur. The FCC claimed in 2015 they were not trying to forbid open source systems, but the additional compliance demands they have made unsupportable unsecurable devices the default state: the FCC mandated companies make sure the users dont have freedom, make sure the wifi performance is locked down, and the most obvious path to that end is to just lock out the user entirely. Open source isn't outlawed, but the FCC turned a good working amazing open source movement into something that is incredibly rare and hard to do. The FCC assurances (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/free-router-software-not-crosshairs-fcc-clarifies https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/free-router-software-n...) have not proven true (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966): everything has gotten worse for security & availability (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966).
• gz5 6mo ago
  my instinct is open source is part of the answer. the market monetizes with differentiation on the open source base, support, hardware, etc. vibrant enough market = the foss is secure (always a relative term) and continues to evolve, partially paid for by the companies who are monetizing
• flowerthoughts 6mo ago
  The escalation path is probably: have some relationship to an entity that doesn't care about you -> make sure that entity becomes your enemy -> the enemy now has an incentive to see you as an enemy -> you must now be afraid of your new enemy.
• compounding_it 6mo ago
  As someone who works with networking (consumer prosumer enterprise everything) the problem is far more complex than : make it open. Manufacturers can support devices for long but it costs money which the consumers / businesses aren’t willing to pay or value. Cybersecurity is a joke and the general consensus is : we will pay for things as and when there is a fire. We don’t put a price on prevention because we can’t really show it to shareholders how we profited from not being attacked since we blocked those. So we create an arbitrary certification and pass things according to it. This certification doesn’t say anything about firmware. But if we do get attacked then we can convince the shareholders to spend money on better equipment this financial year and then not bother until the next time we have a problem. Some of these certifications focus on what the devices allow you to do (like acls and firewalls) and see if they pass these tests. But actually looking at the firmware and finding vulnerabilities is not in scope.
• blemasle 6mo ago
  Does it occurs to someone that in this time of encryption backdoor and such, this is also a good starting point to another mass surveillance system ? Mandate US manufacturers to embed remote access for the use of the government, then as you've made those routers the only ones authorized on the us soil (let's not be foolish about that approval process, it will be a smoke screen) you basically have a backdoor to every citizen home. Yes china routers are a liability, but free trade and open market ensure at least one thing that's essential : no single state has surveillance capability on its entire population
  • Schlagbohrer 6mo ago
    This is why users need to have an american router, chinese router, and russian router, all wired in series. That way no one spy branch has full backdoor access through the chain ;-)
    • M95D 6mo ago
      How would that work? Backdoors usually go the other way: malware calls home. How can the first router in the chain differentiate TLS backdoor traffic from the 3rd router (the one with access to your LAN) from legitimate traffic from LAN?
  • passive 6mo ago
    Yes, that's what is happening here, except it goes beyond surveillance. This is about full domestic control of the internet. For both ingress and egress. Remember how Iran likely murdered thousands of protestors a few months ago, but we don't actually know? They want to be able to do that here.
  • stacktraceyo 6mo ago
    My sister in laws xfinity router / app has a new feature banner for “detecting motion in your house with WiFi for no additional cost” I took a screenshot to share if anyone is interested
    • nozzlegear 6mo ago
• crimshawz 6mo ago
  Long overdue.
• passive 6mo ago
  This is terrible, perhaps the worst thing this administration has done (which is an incredibly high bar.) Because it provides a pathway to full government control of the internet. Content that demonizes the current administration's enemies will become easier to find. Evidence of their crimes will vanish. When they murder someone in the street, fewer people will find out about it, and those that do will be more likely to hear the government's side of the story. Mobile networks are already owned by the billionaires, and they've shown plenty of willingness to shape traffic for their interests. Managing this kind of information at scale is an incredible challenge, but one that LLMs are very well suited for. Even if you are confident the current administration doesn't have the competence or longevity to exploit this (as I mostly am,) we can easily predict future admins of either party will happily make use of these capabilities. Bad for the US, but also very bad for the world, because it will make it much easier to manufacture consent for or hide future international crimes committed by the government. We've excused the complete loss of traditional journalism with a reliance on the Internet instead. Not anymore. Can savvy individuals work around it, of course. But the general public will treat them like conspiracy theorists, because all they will see is content that reinforces the administration. The technical discussions in here sound like: "silly Caligula, his horse won't be able to sign his name to cast a vote in the Senate."
• vaxman 6mo ago
  The Spirit of this law __must__ also now apply to SoCs produced by non-allied nations that feature USFCC-approved RF microelectronics, such as __ESP32__ Here's to hoping USFCC gets around to also reflecting this in the Letters of this law sooner, rather than later. [cue https://youtu.be/EnIm71jRb_o https://youtu.be/EnIm71jRb_o]
• jeffs4271 6mo ago
  Yeah, it does sound like this should be focused on verifying firmware, including all future updates. If a Chinese company builds the router at a US Foxconn site, it is still the same situation. If worried about supply chain and inside jobs, I worry more about the IoT widgets I have. They are already inside the LAN, can access the internet, etc. Anyway, bribes aside, this is probably just a talking point and not much actually changes.
• wesleyd 6mo ago
  I have a theory that the FCC bureaucracy desperately wants to extend its remit to regulate the internet, and this is just one more attempt. Previous example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37392676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37392676
• metalman 6mo ago
  will this be like "product of USA" potatoes?, where a canadian truck full of bags of potatoes backs up to a special border facility, and the bagged potatoes are put on a conveyor, dumped out, conveyed........, and then rebagged,thereby becoming american product!
  • FEELmyAGI 6mo ago
    Live in USA and never heard of that nor USA ban foreign potatoes............?
• HumblyTossed 6mo ago
  I have a small stockpile of wifi 6 routers running openwrt. I'm set for quite a while given that wifi 6 is plenty fast enough for my family. This is kind of a boneheaded way of handling whatever issues they're claiming.
• KoftaBob 6mo ago
  To clarify (since the headlines of many articles about this aren't clear about it), this states that it prohibits approval of new Models, so any models that already cleared FCC certification can still be sold in the US, even if they're made overseas. This is for newly released models that still need to get FCC certification.
• mkesper 6mo ago
  Jeff Geerling's reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04oL0qVSWJE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04oL0qVSWJE
  • nickburns 6mo ago
    Pretty disappointing for someone like Jeff not to make a distinction between routers, and routers which also contain a Wi-Fi transmitter.
• stevetron 6mo ago
  I am having trouble understaning. First, which routers are actually made in the USA? ASAIK, none of them are.
• deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
• fred_is_fred 6mo ago
  Am I reading this correctly? Existing routers in houses can only get firmware updates until the end of March 2027 then they need some kind of approval? How is that more secure?
• cute_boi 6mo ago
  this administration is going nuts day by day. I don't know how people are even tolerating.
  • toomuchtodo 6mo ago
    The people who can leave are leaving, those who cannot remain until potential change is possible. Bloomberg Editorial Board: The US Must Not Become a Nation of Emigrants - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2026-03-20/immigration-americans-yearning-to-leave-should-scare-lawmakers https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2026-03-20/immigr... | https://archive.today/a9DbM https://archive.today/a9DbM - March 20th, 2026 > A recent analysis found that US emigration has reached unprecedented levels. Much of this exodus is due to the administration’s deportation efforts, but by no means all. Last year, at least 180,000 American citizens left the Land of Opportunity to find a better life elsewhere. > During the recession of 2008, a Gallup poll found that about 1 in 10 Americans wanted to permanently leave the country. That figure is now 1 in 5. Among women ages 15 to 44, it’s a whopping 40%. Some of that sentiment is tied to politics, of course, but the emigration trend predates the current administration.
    • russdill 6mo ago
      I take the Michael Bolton attitude, why should I leave, he's the one that sucks. There are elections coming up.
      • Shalomboy 6mo ago
        are there though?
        • toomuchtodo 6mo ago
          They are until they aren’t.
    • kdheiwns 6mo ago
      I'm one who left before term one because I anticipated bad things happening. Term 2 is far worse than even my worst expectations. So far I have 2 good friends who left, and a few others got remote jobs and are currently working towards leaving. There's a whole world out there and a lot of it is great. I recommend trying a year outside to everyone I know, and I'm confident most people will be happy (excluding those who like seeing their extended families on a weekly basis, which many people do)
• jzkdroid 6mo ago
  I just bought a new router 6 months ago to support wifi 7. Hopefully manufacturers will be willing to jump through the hoops for long term support. Don't want to Flash OpenWrt.
  • estimator7292 6mo ago
    "I sure hope corporations will keep on capitulating and eroding everyone's freedom because I don't want to think for myself" Very enlightened and useful comment, thank you for your participation.
    • jzkdroid 6mo ago
      I sure hope corporations will keep supporting products they sell no matter the hurdles placed in their ways for their devices useful lifespans.
• dryarzeg 6mo ago
  (reposting this comment from the other thread which discusses the same topic, I'm sorry for any trouble that may cause) From one side, that sure... does have some point. Well, I mean, one could potentially install some kind of a backdoor on the networking hardware they produce, and if it's state-controlled, then it could potentially be a threat. From the other side, though... That's crazy. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, or maybe I'm just stupid, I don't know; but at this point, with almost no manufacturing in the USA, this feels like shooting yourself in the foot. Or rather, it's like shooting yourself straight up in the head if manufacturing will not be efficiently (so it can satisfy the demand) moved to the USA (which is a big challenge).
  • vkou 6mo ago
    You are missing something. Trump is open for business, and will happily give you an exemption in exchange for a large sum of cash.
    • imglorp 6mo ago
      Yeah, this is probably the point. His MO, over and over, is to take something away from you and then sell it back.
    • dryarzeg 6mo ago
      Will he do this for Chinese manufacturers? I'm not sure, but I think they have a decent market share. If this is true, then, I guess, there will still be some missing supply, at least in the short term. Now, that's not even the main problem. Imagine if someone did something like this with RAM or NAND. Again, maybe I'm stupid, but this sets a precedent. It's not currently possible to move RAM manufacturing (fully satisfying the demand) to the USA, though, so I doubt anyone sane would try to do so.
  • imglorp 6mo ago
    The good news is this domain doesn't call for cutting edge, 2 nm process. There are more than a half dozen fabs in the US which can produce networking chips like ethernet controllers, line drivers, SOC, etc: Intel, TI, Samsung, et al. If US wanted to onshore routers, we could make it happen.
• mindwork 6mo ago
  Let me use my UniFi
  • varispeed 6mo ago
    I bought their Dream Router 7 and this is pure junk. Slow. Poor signal (you have to sit by the router to get full signal. Go to the other room and you get drop outs).
• deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
• anthk 6mo ago
  Every Unix and 9front OS can be a router with two interfaces. > Firmware updates for existing covered devices are allowed, but only through March 1, 2027. Good luck enforcing that with libre firmware without being sued with some amendment until oblivion and the FCC -the irony- gets sued like crazy.
  • theginger 6mo ago
    You probably don't even need 2 interfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router_on_a_stick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router_on_a_stick
• xrd 6mo ago
  Does this mean used ones will go up in value? I see them all the time at goodwill and wondering if I can finally fund my retirement.
• robolange 6mo ago
  How do they even think they can enforce the firmware provision? Erect a great firewall? Fine me, the American user, for downloading a firmware update?
  • t-sauer 6mo ago
    Probably hasn't been thought through, but if it prevents automatic updates from being rolled out to users in the USA, then that's probably good enough for them.
  • lionkor 6mo ago
    > Erect a great firewall Yes and nobody would do anything to stop it, really :(
• alanwreath 6mo ago
  Mikrotik nooooo!
• tombert 6mo ago
  Seems like now is as good a time as any for people who know how to do this to build their own routers with Pfsense, Opnsense, ClearOS, or one of the many other firewall/router distros out there. You can get an old desktop or laptop that's more than good enough to be a router for basically nothing (or sometimes literally nothing) on Craigslist or Ebay. I suspect pretty much anyone who frequents this forum could probably figure out how to do it with a YouTube tutorial. Routers are pretty dumb computers, so you don't need something top of the line. Even if you want higher speed than the ethernet port built into the computer, you can buy old dual-port 10GbE PCIe cards for less than $50 on eBay as well. I've been running my own custom thing with NixOS for a couple years now, and it's been working great, and before that I ran ClearOS for a couple years, and before that I ran OpnSense for a couple years. They all work fine, and they're not too hard to set up. I recommend it to anyone who can figure out how to do it.
  • Onavo 6mo ago
    How does the hardware compare to router hardware? Do they have faster switching and network routing?
    • tombert 6mo ago
      I use a 10GbE switch that was retired from a datacenter, so the switching is as good or better than most things. It wasn't expensive, I think I paid less than $70 for it. As far as network routing is concerned, I haven't been able to see much of a difference. iperf3 shows that two wired connections I'm getting about 9.4Gbps, which is well within any tolerance I need. The router that Verizon gave me only had 2.5Gbps ports so I can't quite compare apples to apples, but the latency was generally pretty similar. I mostly just like the level of customization I'm allowed to have. There's no arbitrary limits to port forwards and I can install extensions or write my own if I want.
    • sophacles 6mo ago
      Consumer routers are just Arm chips running linux, a wifi card, and a network card with a switching chip. I have a little Intel Atom box that i use for my network edge running OPNsense, and it is indistinguishable from any consumer router I've tested it against.
• shibapuppie 6mo ago
  Next they'll come for our OpenWRT-flashable equipment. I've already done everything the article says to do years ago, but what happens when this equipment dies? Can I get a replacement, and is it flashable? I currently use "routers" as access points because it's the cheapest way to get an AP for OpenWRT.
  • sumtechguy 6mo ago
    at last that wrt54g router that I have been saving will be worth something!
• cheriot 6mo ago
  Can't wait to see the price of the first US made home router. We [USA] really need a formal designation of trusted supply chain partners. Would improve security and make a useful bargaining chip.
  • sonar_un 6mo ago
    No one would trust a US made router for fears of backdoors. Even if they did manage to make one, the market would be minuscule for it.
    • MiiMe19 6mo ago
      but they trust routers from china?
      • deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
    • DangitBobby 6mo ago
      I'm much more worried about my own government spying on my than someone in China.
  • Forgeties79 6mo ago
    It’ll probably get rolled into ISP’s available hardware because (I believe) most people just lease from their ISP anyway. We’ll just eat the cost regardless.
• Miraste 6mo ago
  This is the same thing they did to drones. It's corruption. It doesn't even make sense from an extreme isolationist point of view, because there's no path to create domestic manufacturing. I'm guessing the rest of this looks like drones, too: FCC approval is given only to American companies that bribe members of the administration, and they raise prices through the roof. The routers are still manufactured overseas and there's no improvement in security.
  • gnarlouse 6mo ago
    At least that checks "death by hobby drone swarm" off my possible apocalypses list
  • 9cb14c1ec0 6mo ago
    There absolutely is a path to domestic manufacturing. It might be long and hard, but it does exist. Source: My company manages logistics for dozens of US manufacturing companies.
    • tencentshill 6mo ago
      Then it needs careful consideration and compromise. Ramming through a change is just another signal that they can't get anyone to agree to it.
    • cjbgkagh 6mo ago
      In theory but the difficulty in practice is that if you were to invest in local manufacturing you'd have to be sure that someone else won't be given a waver via lobbying / corruption and will then be able to completely undercut you. The current US administration lacks the credibility to give such assurances. Given existing models are exempt you're better of just delaying new models while you wait for a new admin.
      • 9cb14c1ec0 6mo ago
        I don't think it follows that a Democrat administration would reverse this.
• JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  Is there good legal analysis on this? It seems to vastly overstep statutory authority.
  • nickburns 6mo ago
    It also seems to vastly conflate routers with so-called wireless routers.
  • blurbleblurble 6mo ago
    I've been appreciating Legal Eagle and Democracy Docket, hopefully they'll do a segment on this.
• bob1029 6mo ago
  https://shop.netgate.com https://shop.netgate.com
• mystraline 6mo ago
  This is just the trump administration blocking companies unless they pay the danegeld. Thats what this is all about: government level blackmail.
• throwawaypath 6mo ago
  According to Tom’s Guide, there isn’t a single consumer router currently manufactured entirely in the USA. Effectively banning all consumer routers.
• boxingdog 6mo ago
  [dead]
• darig 6mo ago
  [dead]
• caspian123456 6mo ago
  [dead]
• fidotron 6mo ago
  This will keep expanding until a lot of radio equipment is locked down. This is an obvious first move, but the fundamental problem is there's nothing stopping your hacked radio equipment from usefully spying on whoever is in range, to a degree that simply isn't appreciated even around here. It's also a quasi inevitable side effect of the push to encrypt all communication back to the cloud, since now it's too easy for malicious devices to hide what they're sending back. Back to wearing the tin foil hat in my faraday cage.
• stuckkeys 6mo ago
  America is really becoming the shithole country...speed run. The amount of corruption taking place is absurd. lol
• heikkilevanto 6mo ago
  I guess EU will have to retaliate, and forbid any US based routers, for exactly the same kind of reasons
• HumblyTossed 6mo ago
  Why do they do this? One purpose for taxes is to shape behavior. If the behavior they wish for is to have more manufacturing in the US, you increase the taxes of outsourcing it. IOW, you make it more desirable to manufacture locally.
• jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
  This would be so much less of a pain if decent wifi pcie cards were available. It's all a bunch of very expensive kind of dodgy Compex cards, used for industrial or prototype purposes. Be prepared to spend $300+ for a single 4x4 MIMO card. And then you want to go dual band right? Thankfully the MediaTek offerings are somewhat available and much much much cheaper, but reports are that driver quality is just absymal. Meanwhile the openwrt table of hardware for wifi 6 and wifi 7 is a bare trickle already, and inceasingly not consumer routers but SBC. Thanks for the FCC messing things up brutally already, back in 2015, with requirements to make sure users couldn't possibly do anything out of spec, requiring these systems to be locked down. They almost banned open source outright, but in practice it feels like the requirements are high enough that they practically did. https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_be https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_be https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/tp-link-blocks-open-source-router-firmware-to-comply-with-new-fcc-rule/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/tp-li... Frelling FCC! What dastardly deeds done against civilization! We would be so much more secure & protected, the bar would be so much higher if open source / openwrt was allowed to compete. You messed everything up already!!
• conor_mc 6mo ago
  The FCC is bypassing the public comment period by having the DOD classify this as a national security concern. This is blatant collaboration between agencies to expand their respective authorities into a new amalgamation that stretches far beyond their congressional authorization. A little rich coming from the administration that supports a strict view of the major questions doctrine. They have no problem kneecapping the EPA. But the communications commission has the right to ban all drones (and not the FAA for example). I'd say I'm shocked but I am not. Their next order forcing backdoors will be secret.
• nerdsniper 6mo ago
  Is there any confirmation whether this includes Ubiquiti equipment? I think this blanket affects consuner routers but exempts business routers? And I’m not sure which ubiquiti would fall under!
• lr1970 6mo ago
  An opportunity for Apple to resurrect Airport line of WiFi routers (I love Airport Extreme) and on-shore their production.
• vincnetas 6mo ago
  this is basically saying "you cant do anything unless i allow you to (and i might for a price)" in contrast to when government should just say "these are the things that you cant do, anything else is ok".