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E2E encrypted messaging on Instagram will no longer be supported after 8 May
- some_furry 7mo agoI wonder if this is the start of a trend or just a one-off?
- nunobrito 7mo agoTikTok replied recently it wouldn't encrypt its messages either, citing user security as reason.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- odo1242 7mo agoProbably a one off? Instagram’s e2ee was opt-in from the start- and meanwhile Facebook Messenger is now “e2ee for everyone” and none of this is affecting the main e2ee messaging apps people use - WhatsApp, Signal, and iMessage
- garbawarb 7mo agoWhen Meta starting introducing E2E messaging it was a huge push. I wonder why they're doing away with it.
- john_strinlai 7mo agoi am guessing that they just dont really need to pretend to care anymore. e2e messaging was a big marketing push, not ever an ideological thing. i assume they no longer believe the marketing benefits outweigh the downsides.
- varispeed 7mo agoProbably Whatsapp is next, if it isn't quietly already.
- deafpolygon 7mo ago> Probably Whatsapp is next, if it isn't quietly already. And I will be pushing to remove WhatsApp if that’s the case.
- garbawarb 7mo agoI doubt it, E2E isba huge part of Whatsapp's selling point considering it's exclusively a messaging app. Instagram is primarily a social app with messaging features.
- gmerc 7mo agoIt was for plausible deniability because of regulatory scrutiny. Regulator's dead now, so now there's no downside and only upsides to spying on your users.
- dngray 7mo agoThey never did this for user privacy, and yes I think you're spot on. This was just to remove liability. Now it just costs them the data and development cost to maintain. Any remaining problems they'll throw some crappy AI moderator at to fix.
- infinitewars 7mo agoPalantir
- mpalmer 7mo ago> no downside That is not the view their legal department takes, I guarantee it. Congress ain't gonna keep its composition indefinitely.
- gzread 7mo agoPR. They wanted to seem like the good guys, but they get your messages through backdoors like the automatic backup.
- modeless 7mo agoYou're thinking of Apple. WhatsApp backups are not stored by Meta. Apple is the company that breaks their "end-to-end" encryption by backing up the encryption keys to their own servers.
- paxys 7mo agoBecause they realized they need the data for AI
- zipping1549 7mo agoWe all know what this means.
- treesknees 7mo agoIt could be a move to have parity with TikTok, where they claim it’s for safety reasons. I’ve been seeing advertisements for Instagram touting their child/teen protection features. Seems like they’re really trying to beat the allegations that Instagram is bad for children’s health. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47241817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47241817
- dmix 7mo agoProtecting kids and Terrorism, always the reason why nobody is allowed to have privacy on the internet.
- nunobrito 7mo agoCars nowadays are packed with microphones and permanently connected to the internet on daily basis so that drivers can have remote assistance when the car breaks once every 5 years or so.
- Sayrus 7mo agoI keep hearing this one. But at least for EU, the eCall system requires external communication to be disabled until activated during serious accident. It cannot be used for tracking the vehicle in real-time. Some parts of the legislation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32015R0758 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...): > 2. The personal data processed pursuant to this Regulation shall only be used for the purpose of handling the emergency situations referred to in the first subparagraph of Article 5(2). > Manufacturers shall provide clear and comprehensive information in the owner's manual about the processing of data carried out through the 112-based eCall in-vehicle system. That information shall consist of: > the fact that there is no constant tracking of the vehicle; That vehicle nowadays are equipped with always-on internet and microphones is not related to remote assistance.
- SV_BubbleTime 7mo agoThis is such misdirection. Your car if new enough, IS reporting its diagnostics including GPS via cell. All the time. This isn’t exactly personally identifiable so they get away with it just fine. This is unrelated to the microphones and assistance systems.
- gausswho 7mo agoIs this legitimate? It's so incoherent to see this blurb at the top saying it's being retired while everything underneath is pitching the value of e2e.
- emsign 7mo ago[flagged]
- apopapo 7mo agoIt's not only the united states of America. These tyrannical views have been brewing everywhere for years, and there was not enough public counter-narrative to these ideologies.
- chromic04850 7mo ago[dead]
- krystalgamer 7mo agobecause everyone is forced to use Instagram messaging, right?
- dcliu 7mo agoOn the other hand Messenger has moved to only supporting e2ee chats, wonder why the difference.
- GuB-42 7mo agoTo me, Instagram is a public platform at its core, where people publish things for the whole world to see. Private messages are just a secondary feature. It is like having a conversation in a restaurant, where the guy at the next table can listen to everything, but usually doesn't. Good enough for planning a surprise party, not for truly sensitive information. Kind of like private messages in Reddit, Discord, etc... a convenient feature, but don't expect real privacy. Messenger has a higher expectation of privacy, Facebook is more at the "group of friends" level. While Instagram is a public restaurant, Facebook is more like a house party. WhatsApp has the highest expectation of privacy as it is designed for private, often one-to-one conversations first.
- ajsnigrutin 7mo agoSure, but if you already have e2ee, it takes work to remove it... why invest the time to do that?
- gzread 7mo agoIt also takes work to keep it working and it may have a lot of bugs already, that are hard to fix because of it. A non-E2EE chat app is very easy to make.
- paxys 7mo agoWhatsApp and Messenger are pure messaging apps. For Instagram, DMs are just a tiny part of the overall experience.
- villgax 7mo agojust waiting on whatsapp to rug pull as well & then bye bye privacy & meta from my life
- dylan604 7mo agoWouldn't bye bye meta be hello privacy into your life?
- villgax 7mo agoTo be online is gonna just become pointless. Only literal need is for news or payments. NSFW stuff doesn’t need the internet anymore. Critique of regimes aren’t safe either so being online is just a crutch and thats so sad.
- arunc 7mo agoWait, people trust communication via Instagram thinking they are secure?
- morpheuskafka 7mo agoSo apparently this was opt-in, much like Telegram's OTR chat feature, and thus completely different than WhatsApp where it has always been default. Not a good look regardless, but the few who went into chat settings for a specific person to turn this on in the first place will likely just switch to WhatsApp or another app rather than continue without it.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- yobid20 7mo agobecause they want to read your messages for training ai and for advertising
- gitaarik 7mo agoAnd maybe to also have a better relationship with the government?
- everdrive 7mo agoThere's a general trend right now against privacy and in a more general sense against freedom. More and more companies are on board with it. I'm not sure if anyone in HN has any useful advice in this regard. I feel like I don't know what to do about the internet for the next 5-10 years. Does this particular measure matter very much? No, but it's another brick in the wall.
- krystalgamer 7mo agoi don't understand this doomer mentality regarding the internet. internet is a service that you choose what to engage and how. don't like a platform? find another, build it or stop using it altogether. personally, i find these things really great has it helps nudge people into the more decentralized web. a few years ago those who were pushing for privacy respecting apps and platforms were deemed too paranoid.
- ultratalk 7mo agoNetwork effects will keep a person on a platform until a critical mass of their social circle decide to leave all at once. I'm no expert, but I suspect that that critical mass is pretty high, maybe more than 50% of a person's circle. So it's not exactly vanilla free-market competition. Entrenched players have a pretty big advantage.
- krystalgamer 7mo agowhat does your social circle being on Instagram bring to you? seriously, this picture-sharing app has evolved into this content spread machine that brings very little value.
- ultratalk 7mo agoWhen most of your social circle exists on one platform, you tend to use that platform less for its specific features, and more because of the fact that all your friends are there. I don't personally use Instagram, and this is anecdotal information, but I know a lot of people who only use Instagram to see what their friends and family are up to, and to watch the occasional reel. But you're absolutely right about Instagram's evolution. It's crazy.
- Bender 7mo agoNever rely on a platform used by the masses to perform E2EE. It is far too easy to strip away E2EE for targeted users without their knowledge as they maintain the server and client code. This advise is to protect from corporations gobbling up and ultimately leaking sensitive data. Spooks can target the device itself via debug access for nation state level threats. Consider instead using a code word or phrase to move sensitive conversations to something self hosted such as jabber using OMEMO XEP-0384 and XEP-0373 OpenPGP for XMPP and SASL SCRAM. OMEMO is an implementation of the Signal protocol on top of the XMPP protocol. e.g. "_Expletive_! I stubbed my toe!" other-person: "lol geezer watch where you are walking." conversation quietly and temporarily moves to the pre-shared self-hosted Jabber server. Temporarily because going dark can draw attention. Feed the big chat platform boring garbage and misdirection.
- impossiblefork 7mo agoPeople catch the spooks and their exploits all the time though. It is possible to defend against them. Maybe not on your phone though.
- Bender 7mo agoAgreed. I just mentioned that for the spooks who don't like I am suggesting moving sensitive conversations elsewhere using basic opsec. I assume the farm recruits on HN are probably just as concerned about AI taking their jobs. Surely someone has bought AI a coffee unprompted by now, maybe even flirted with the AI.
- impossiblefork 7mo agoI don't quite understand your comment. I also disagree with some implications of the final bit of your first comment: encryption is obviously basic privacy, but the interesting bit is who you're talking to. So having a signal for switching mediums is something that I feel indicates thinking in the wrong direction.
- 7mo ago
- jonathantf2 7mo agoThis feature has never been available to me- it just threw an error each time. Wonder how far it actually got rolled out?
- j45 7mo agoThis could obviously tie to sending you more ads. It could also tag people communicating about topics ig chat that it is actively suppressing. They may be looking for an uproar to reverse the policy as so far, it's just words.
- Papazsazsa 7mo agoSocials are caught in the innovator's dilemma. Given the dependence our society now has on the internet, it's bonkers to me that more VCs aren't rethinking their investment strategy. Privacy is not some niche concern anymore, check out the response to Flock for example.
- Cider9986 7mo agoSome are. See simplex.chat, anytype.io.
- alex1138 7mo agoI don't use IG although they dearly want me to, giving me a popup every time I visit, but let me talk about FB for a second (and btw FB wanted to enable cross-platform messaging on the platforms they own - Meta - which seems anti-trust-y) - when they introduced encryption on FB, they made it mandatory. They opted everyone in, and it broke Messenger. If you delete cookies you might also delete messages. Isn't that convenient?
- CrzyLngPwd 7mo agoDid they give a reason why are they doing this?
- maxalbarello 7mo ago[dead]
- avallach 7mo agoIsn't this actually improving safety by openly admitting how things always were in practice? Any e2e encryption provided by the same entity who fully controls both the blackbox clients, and the server in between, is just a security theatre that they can selectively bypass anytime with very little risk of detection. Not really much better than simple client to server encryption. Truly safe e2e requires open source client provided by a trusted entity who is as much as possible independent from the one who provides the untrusted transport layer. Eg how pgp email works.
- john_strinlai 7mo agoone thing to consider is how just the optics of major players using e2e was an overall benefit. people who otherwise would have gone their entire lives without ever hearing about encryption were exposed to the term and the marketing convinced them that encryption and privacy was a valuable thing, even if they didnt fully understand the mechanisms or why e2e might not necessarily be very effective in specific circumstances. later, when presented between option a and option b, where one has encryption and the other doesnt, they are more likely to choose the one with it ("well, if instagram and facebook use it and say it is good...")
- gzread 7mo agoIf someone's given the choice between say Instagram and IRC, and chooses Instagram because they heard it has E2EE, that's a loss.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- john_strinlai 7mo agoperfect is the enemy of good, etc etc. between signal and plain text, it is easier to convince friends to use signal if they see positive marketing about encryption on other popular apps they use. it is easier to convince them to encrypt their backups before uploading them to their google drive. hell, its just a good conversation starter to introduce encryption/online privacy to people that never really think about it. that type of thing. those same friends are not going to use irc regardless. not really a loss if it was never even on the table.
- _slih 7mo agothe timeline for all of this is not a coincidence. meta spent millions lobbying for age verification laws that require content scanning. hard to scan content that's encrypted.
- MMTlover 7mo agoUse this https://www.ricochetrefresh.net/ https://www.ricochetrefresh.net/ Chat and file transfer over tor
- mvrckhckr 7mo agoThe only reason I can think of for this change is governmental pressure. I don’t see how it benefits the platform itself (nor its users).
- gzread 7mo agoI can think of some. Less code complexity to support a feature that didn't work properly and nobody was using? More ability to detect spam?
- mvrckhckr 7mo agoWasn't it automatically used when it was implemented?
- arlort 7mo agoI can think of a few reasons why a company built on profiling (and advertising to) user interests might be interested in the private conversations of their users
- paxys 7mo agoThere is a product reason - AI features are fundamentally incompatible with E2EE. If they want to bring more AI generated experiences and content into Instagram then the data needs to be accessible by them.
- mvrckhckr 7mo agoThat's an interesting angle. I'm not sure I see the direct connection, but it can be a user choice.
- methuselah_in 7mo agoIt feels like it's time to move to lemon writing over paper on normal post. Only way you can no talk freely.
- quectophoton 7mo agoExcept instead of sending through post offices, it'd probably be through "runners" like on Mirror's Edge.
- EmbarrassedHelp 7mo agoIn a sane world, removing E2E encrypted messaging would be worthy of huge fines.
- paxys 7mo agoEveryone is hypothesizing government backdoors and whatever else but to me there's a simpler and more obvious reason - AI. Companies started pushing E2EE a few years ago because users' private messaging data used to be a liability. Now that the data can be fed into LLMs for training and inference its value has gone up significantly, and the privacy and security tradeoffs are suddenly worthwhile. PMs across the industry are pushing product decks with "conversational AI assistants" to get their next promotion. I've been in more than one of these meetings myself. If the data is encrypted then there's no way to build this kind of stuff.
- Archonical 7mo agoIt's around the same time they announced their Applied AI org under Boz, which is responsible for data for Avocado/Mango/Watermelon training now. The timing certainly doesn't help.
- jbverschoor 7mo agoJust make it an OS feature. There’s no need for the application to know the exact contents. Other than search, but for most messaging and other apps the device can easily do indexing Textbox with attribute ”encrypted”. Keys in the enclave/keychain.