9 ms·
"What am I missing?" That nationalism is the new state doctrin? Foreigners are inferior by definition, so they cannot really help with research anyway, all the
by lukan 8mo ago
"What am I missing?"
That nationalism is the new state doctrin? Foreigners are inferior by definition, so they cannot really help with research anyway, all they want to do is steal secrets. If you think like that, then it makes sense.
- drops 8mo ago[flagged]
- mc32 8mo ago[flagged]
- drops 8mo agoNazi scientists were brought in _after_ WWII, not during it.
- mc32 8mo agoI think there is a difference between bringing in key proven talent at the apex that’s already proven itself and talent that needs to be developed. Both the US and USSR picked up proven talent from the Nazis, they weren’t siphoning up green talent on the hopes they’d develop into good scientists. We have our own population we often overlook and misdirect into Hollywood entertainment rather than achievement.
- drops 8mo agoYou're actually right, I misread the first post. Speaking of unutilized talents, other than Hollywood, I'd also add a whole bunch of folks in tech who could be useful for defending their own homeland (hence, their own & their kids' future) but are busy doing the generic commercial stuff.
- pjc50 8mo agoA significant portion of the WW2 scientists were refugees from _before_ the US joined the war but after persecution had started. https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/scientist-refugees-and-manhattan-project/ https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/scientist-refugees-and-manhatt... (later notable entry: Andy Grove, Intel CEO, was born Andreas Grov: "By the time I was twenty, I had lived through a Hungarian Fascist dictatorship, German military occupation, the Nazis' "Final Solution," the siege of Budapest by the Soviet Red Army, a period of chaotic democracy in the years immediately after the war, a variety of repressive Communist regimes, and a popular uprising that was put down at gunpoint... [where] many young people were killed; countless others were interned. Some two hundred thousand Hungarians escaped to the West. I was one of them")
- lukan 8mo ago"It’s fair to Americans and that’s what counts." Well, let's talk in some years how this worked out for you. If you don't want to anymore, we in europe are mostly happy to welcome smart talents.
- mc32 8mo agoIf not developing domestic scientists but instead importing and developing foreign scientists is the way, why isn’t China doing it?
- roxolotl 8mo agoI think the point is “it’s fair to Americans that’s what counts” is a nationalistic statement. Maybe it’s the way to go. But it’s not refuting the parent who’s saying the missing piece is nationalism.
- mc32 8mo agoI mean what is the point of a government of its people if not to serve those who elected it? It seems bizarre that one would elect a government to benefit others whose governments could give a rats ass about us.
- roxolotl 8mo agoAgain that’s a nationalistic point of view. For someone unused to thinking about the world as “us” vs “them” where the designations of “us” and “them” are defined by national borders it can be surprising and seem like there’s missing information. There’s not missing information there’s a values/worldview mismatch.
- pama 8mo agoWho benefited from all the years Elon Musk studied in the US and built his early companies? Certainly not south Africa.
- 8mo ago
- croes 8mo agoQuite the opposite. The US got the best of other countries, those countries paid for their education but the US got the benefits. The braun drain was to the US
- UncleSlacky 8mo ago> The braun drain was to the US I see what you did there...
- croes 8mo agoFreudian slip
- bonsai_spool 8mo ago> I think the world got used to us being patsies where we spend our money on R&D paying foreigners I can tell you're not in the business of training / employing people. The best ROI is getting someone who is already trained (read you didn't pay for their K-12, their parents' teaching/maternity/healthcare) and just deriving value from their labor.
- mc32 8mo agoLeading a nation is not a business. In order to have a successful and self sustaining population we need to develop our own human capital. You want to take shortcuts —those are fine when you’re playing catch up, not when you’re in the lead. Also, it’s a governments responsibility to support and cultivate its own population and not dispose them for another population.
- bonsai_spool 8mo agoAbsolutely true about creating talent. That does not mean you shouldn't take advantage of the easy talent available to you. Please don't pretend like hiring scientists for a national lab has any effect on the colossal waste of human talent our nation is perpetrating—the problems begin so much earlier, and holding out for another American scientist at a national lab is doing nothing to address the ridiculous state of our human capital development.
- zombot 8mo agoTrump hates science anyway, so why not fire all scientists? Problem solved. /s
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- AlecSchueler 8mo agoIsn't what they're basically doing with the massive funding cuts and cover-ups?
- joering2 8mo agoI don't think its about hate, its more like he doesn't believe in taking away something he cannot see with his own eye. Here his idea is that research and development will still continue happening even if overwhelming majority of people responsible for it in the past, will be gone. Take COVID for example. We were fine with minor breakouts prior to Trump administration. They came in and Trump saw we are spending $3.7 million on safety measures in Wuhan Lab, fund designated by Obama (here comes first red flag right?) By his standard you could not SEE the protection so he wanted to look like Champion and save tax payers 3.7 million by removing that protection. We all know what came next and boy was damage more financially painful than mere 3.7 mil? Its like a person who doesn't wear a seat belt because they never been in a car accident so they don't see the point. If given power they would remove mandates to wear seatbelts and have insurance companies deal with the outcome.
- exceptione 8mo agoTrump is an actor, he isn't the scenario writer, and as such you never should focus on Trump. This isn't a surprise when religious conservatism enters a traditional marriage with oligarchic conservatism¹. This is more a classical case of "you keep them stupid, while we keep them poor". If even the Enlightenment is a heresy (Burke e.a), you will have to spin the clock back. But you can't have your cake and eat it too, so the US will become closer to an Afghanistan, led by increasingly unruly lunatics and warlords. Women's rights, scientific progress, educated people with agency; it's all a threat. The conservative rage becomes violent because what it wants and believes conflicts with reality, so they have to smash that all down, including the progress. Yes, they rather burn society down than to lose control. That is hard to grasp for decent people, so you see an endless stream of opinions trying and failing to come up with a constructive rationale, but when you can understand that there is a class of people with a non-constructive default mode like the rest of us, things will be much easier to understand. The book banning has been going on for several years, and now we are in the escalation phase. The resent about women's rights, persecution² of transgenders, harassment of universities and scientists, in short: the Gleichschaltung³, should not be a surprise and has little to do with show- and stuntman Trump. It is unruly conservatism coming to its ultimate conclusion, confronted with shrinking religious control, with results of zero sum economics, with a shrinking voter base, with all gerry-mandering options exploited, and ultimately with having thrown away democracy. The clock is being turned back. __ 1. This is the original definition of conservatism, to "conserve" the status quo of a very small class of owners versus large masses of poor people. 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47170928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47170928 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung
- lysace 8mo agoEvery time I see something specific like this I wonder if there was something very similar and specific happening in Berlin ~90-93 years ago. I've tried reviewing online archives of German books/newspapers but it's obviously very time consuming. The large LLM:s don't seem to index this area sufficiently.
- chazftw 8mo ago[flagged]
- RealityVoid 8mo agoYes? I don't know why these can't all be true and can't all be a bad thing. Anyways, the US used to not be like this. So it's noteworthy.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- johanvts 8mo agoNext up, “American science”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik
- lysace 8mo agoI think that's quite far away. At least 12 months.
- mturmon 8mo agoCan’t tell if missing /s, but the analogy is: Jewish/socialist physicists:atomic weapons::”foreign“ AI scientists:automated targeting I’m not looking forward to the loss of innocence of computer science that is parallel to that of physics from 1945 onward, but here we are.
- dboreham 8mo agoThere's a one-word shortcut for all that: fascism.
- hypeatei 8mo agoThat word makes a lot of people uncomfortable and many will shut their brains off when they see it. It's a perfect word to describe what's happening, but sometimes describing the characteristics of it is better for engagement. There are a lot of reactionaries in today's political landscape.
- Ygg2 8mo ago> It's a perfect word to describe what's happening I don't think it really fits, but the US is sliding towards illiberal democracy.
- hypeatei 8mo agoUltra nationalist, cult of personality, using violence to suppress opposition... you don't see any parallels, really? EDIT: Illiberalism is a tenet of fascism as well.
- gadflyinyoureye 8mo agoYou forgot to couple with that the oligarchy. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 So yes, the US has enough of the hallmarks to be considered a fascist state. It doesn't need to tick every single box for that title. Edit from Wikipedia: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement that rose to prominence in early-20th-century Europe.[1][2][3] Fascism is characterized by support for a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[3][4] Opposed to communism, democracy, liberalism, pluralism, and socialism,[5][6] fascism is at the far-right of the traditional left–right spectrum.[1][6][7] What constitutes a precise definition of fascism has been a longrunning and complex debate among scholars.
- piokoch 8mo ago"Foreigners are inferior by definition" - but USA approach says exactly the opposite. Foreigners are capable, so it is better not to share secrets and technology with them.
- junofan 8mo agoExactly, why were these guys wandering around on nights and weekends?
- lukan 8mo agoBecause they likely have no family there and on nights and weekends there is less trouble and noise, so better conditions to get into an uninterrupted flow state to get things done? Is that really something in need of explaining on a hacker site? (Or were you ironic? I cannot tell anymore)
- 1234letshaveatw 8mo ago[flagged]
- InitialLastName 8mo agoThe followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy. [0] [0] Umberto Eco, *Ur-Fascism* https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
- gherkinnn 8mo agoAh, Schrödingers Immigrant. Stealing all the jobs while leeching off the hard working nationals.
- butterbomb 8mo agoGod, maybe I could buy if it it came with significant work to repair US education and investment in a domestic science workforce, but unfortunately in the US, these nationalist waves have to also come with a strong air of anti-intellectualism.
- terminalshort 8mo ago[flagged]
- epgui 8mo agoThat's a completely non-sensical take.
- 5upplied_demand 8mo agoIsn't this the type of attitude that is giving cover to the types of actions the OP mentions, i.e. throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
- terminalshort 8mo ago[flagged]
- 5upplied_demand 8mo ago> we are importing foreigners to paper over the fact that we have ruined our own education system. Are you familiar with any of these scientists we "imported" during the 1930s? Was that also a sign of a failed education system? - Albert Einstein - Enrico Fermi - Leo Szilard - Hans Bethe - Edward Teller - John von Neumann - Eugene Wigner - Felix Bloch
- bilbo0s 8mo agoYeah, that's the thing, we've always imported scientists. So I'm unsure why HN User terminalshort is trying to connect this tendency to bad education? From literally the very beginning of the US we have engaged in this practice. I think Priestley himself came here somewhere around 1793?
- phs318u 8mo agoTo paraphrase the past, it’s “Amerikaner Physik”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik
- mandeepj 8mo ago> Foreigners are inferior by definition Trump's first and current wife are foreign-born. VP's wife was born to immigrants. So, WTF? Republicans never make any sense.
- black_knight 8mo agoWell, I would venture that they consider women more as property than people. Which is of course a disgusting way to relate to fellow humans, but dehumanization is all the rage with these people.
- snthpy 8mo agoCrazy times. Getting strong vibes of the purge of "Jewish Science" in Germany in the 1930s from this. Until that point Germany was a world leader in the field and then they handed it to the US and never recovered the same status. Looks like the US is desperate to hand over the baton now.