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Nursing excluded as 'professional' degree by Department of Education
- blinded 11mo agoRegressive. Divinity on the list, but not nursing and advance nursing degrees.
- torben-friis 11mo agochiropractors also have an origin in pseudoscience, they have sort of evolved into scientific studies in many ways but part of the quackery remains.
- loeg 11mo agoIn what way are they anything but quacks?
- cjbgkagh 11mo agoThey have more scope to experiment, in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption. They are paid rather orthography to treatment, they can treat other things while also giving you regular spinal adjustments - similar to the idea that researchers should be paid to teach as paying them to research will pollute the research. We need a way to continue paying dentists so they can stop finding ‘soft spots’ that don’t exist. I dislike the quackery but traditional science isn’t free from it either. I wish everyone was rational, evidence based and disinterested (as in not having a particular interest on biasing an outcome). But the world we live in is far from that. Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy. A large part of that is due to the terrain school of thought in medicine which lost out to germ theory. An artifact of history rather than rational people and rational study. I’m still looking for a better way the phrase it; but it seems to me that the belief in the belief of science far exceeds the actual belief in science. If doctors / medical researchers really were so good at research they wouldn’t have taken so long to rediscover the ancient practice of prolotherapy.
- loeg 11mo ago> in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption So they are not only quacks, but also grifters? The evidence for PRP is basically non-existent. It doesn't hold up in RCTs: https://www.jwatch.org/na54355/2021/12/27/evidence-against-platelet-rich-plasma-injections https://www.jwatch.org/na54355/2021/12/27/evidence-against-p... (To be fair, chiros are not unique in grifting PRP -- I've seen traditional doctors selling it too.) > Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy. I hadn't heard of this, but, yeah, that's also quackery. Wild. 32% of German GPs report "using" homeopathy once a week. The US medical system may have some problems, but at least believing in homeopathy isn't one of them.
- cjbgkagh 11mo agoI had a limp from an injury that persisted for 8 years before PRP cleared it up in 3 months. I would have gotten the French sucrose injections earlier but France was a far way off and I couldn’t afford it at the time. I put it in the bucket of prolotherapy not in the bucket of stem cells and on that basis it absolutely works. Being a substance derived from the patient allows it to skip over regulatory hurdles, as mentioned I would have taken sucrose but that wasn’t on offer. The evidence for prolotherapy working is extensive, far exceeding a single study.
- torben-friis 11mo agoIn studying actual science along with the fake stuff, mostly. Nowadays they have anatomy, physical therapy classes, etc. Some of their techniques are also proven to be useful-ish for short term pain management (not for the reasons they claim, it’s similar to acupuncture). So someone who actually tells the patient that the treatment is exclusively for physical therapy and only short time benefits might be useful. Few are that honest, but for some people that kind of short term help is vital. It might be what gets you through the wait for a long term procedure, or what lets you rest and sleep to improve actual recovery, for example. Pain management is a need for some people.
- wahnfrieden 11mo agoChiropractic was taught to its founder by a ghost
- jeffbee 11mo agoSo you're saying it belongs under divinity?
- gscott 11mo agoThe ghost wasn't holy
- wahnfrieden 11mo agoIt was some regular dead dude’s ghost not god
- drivebyhooting 11mo agoThat’s funny. But when Ramanujan says 1 + 2 + 3 + … = -1/12 because god told him we accept that as a reasonable explanation.
- davorak 11mo ago>But when Ramanujan says 1 + 2 + 3 + … = -1/12 because god told him we accept that as a reasonable explanation. What community accepts that as reasonable explanation?
- drivebyhooting 11mo agoI think Ramanujan’s results attained acclaim and notoriety long before rigorous proofs were discovered. They came to him from God. So apparently divine inspiration can indeed be valuable. Who is to say a Holy Ghost couldn’t divulge secrets of medicine to an anointed prophet.
- wahnfrieden 11mo ago
- drivebyhooting 11mo agoMeanwhile when seeking treatment for pain with western medicine: * first see a GP, no real diagnosis. * get an ultrasound - everyone already knows it won’t show anything of use but insurance companies require this escalation path * get an xray - same as above * maybe if you insist get an MRI. * regardless the treatment is the same: go to a PT’s office.
- the_af 11mo agoThat's an artifact of the health system (as an economic/insurance system), not of medicine itself. Chiropractors are different, the problem with them isn't the bureaucracy of insurance. Conflating medicine with how health systems work in some countries is a serious error.
- yencabulator 11mo agophysical therapist != chiropractor
- kragen 11mo agoThe professions are traditionally divinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_(academic_discipline) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_(academic_discipline)), medicine, and law, so I don't see how you could remove divinity from the list. When you argue for including nursing as a "professional degree", what you're arguing is that it belongs to the category exemplified by those three instances. Edit: please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession for the current undestanding of that category.
- shermantanktop 11mo ago[flagged]
- kragen 11mo agoWithout the 13th-century POV in question, the distinction becomes meaningless.
- yibg 11mo agoWhy? Can we not define what a professional degree is without the historical baggage?
- kragen 11mo agoYou could make up a new category and call it by the same name as the old category, if what you wanted was to confuse people and make clear thinking more difficult. If you want to define a category without historical baggage, I would prefer that you used a different term so that it was clear that you weren't talking about the concept laden with that baggage.
- Jensson 11mo agoI don't think many associate the term with the historical baggage here, so its you who are confusing others by using it that way rather than the opposite.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago> Regressive. Divinity on the list, but not nursing and advance nursing degrees. The list on the site has Theology, not Divinity (which is a bit ironic, because Divinity is traditionally the professional degree and Theology the academic one.)
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- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- charcircuit 11mo ago[flagged]
- searine 11mo agoI do not want some working on my body unlicensed and educated by chatgpt.
- charcircuit 11mo agoI only mentioned degrees. Just because someone passed a class years ago, that doesn't mean they remember everything or are able to put that knowledge into practice. Scaling licensing is much easier than scaling education via universities which means that price can be made cheap to avoid needing big loans.
- ourmandave 11mo agoIn my state you have to renew your nursing license every 2 years with continuing education.
- add-sub-mul-div 11mo agoToo many people in this community earnestly think this way, which makes this statement alone ineffective as parody. Try adding more of a flourish.
- tomhow 11mo ago> Too many people in this community earnestly think this way The guidelines ask us not to comment like this: Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. It's a low-quality comment because it's an easy claim to make, and it will seem "truthy" to many, so you'll get upvotes and approving replies. But it's also worthless, as, without the inclusion of example comments, there's no evidence for it, and unless someone did an analysis of all comments, it can't really be disproven (i.e., it's unfalsifiable). As someone who reads the comments for hours each day, I don't see that “many people in this community earnestly think this way”. I see that many people see real/potential benefits of A.I., whilst also acknowledging its limitations. A.I. zealots (or anythign zealots) have never really been at home on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- supportengineer 11mo agoI heard they are getting rid of the Department of Education anyway.
- softwaredoug 11mo agoSeems fairly regressive to health care costs for everyone.
- bgm1975 11mo ago…so tracks for America.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- stackskipton 11mo agoJust to note, this is probably American Medical Association lobby change since it impacts graduate nurse programs so not RNs but Physician Assistants/Nurse Practitioners and like.
- gsf_emergency_6 11mo agoGraduate programs in some domains tend to be a relatively affordable way to insure against opportunity risks (nursing, not divinity) The context is some interpretations of Baumol effect, as discussed here for the very parallel case of childcare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45956525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45956525
- Wistar 11mo agoGood grief.
- gnarlouse 11mo agoClass warfare
- micromacrofoot 11mo agothere's been nursing shortage for my whole life, what the hell is wrong with people? why can't we take care of each other
- PLenz 11mo agoBecause if there us a nursing shortage there is opportunity to 'supplement' existing nurses with AI and thus transfer more wealth to the very richest among us
- Dusseldorf 11mo agoThis doesn't make much sense to me. As the previous commenter mentioned, this shortage has been ongoing for decades, it's certainly not new in the last two years. Additionally, nursing is one of the jobs least replaceable by AI. There's a nursing shortage because the work is brutal, under appreciated, and under compensated aside from travel nursing gigs, for those who can maintain that sort of lifestyle. Nurses are a cost center, so management is constantly running floors understaffed. It's to the point that they receive bonuses for running the floor as thin as possible, despite the worsening of patient outcomes and nurses' sanity. Don't get me wrong, there are some good gigs for sure, but there are lots of terrible ones.
- polski-g 11mo agoIt's possible you've been lied to. Every single industry always says "there's a shortage" so they can justify expanding the labor pool to drive salary costs down.
- micromacrofoot 11mo agoPerhaps! though this doesn't change the sentiment
- jmclnx 11mo agoAnything to give the for profit medical and insurance industry an excuse to cut nurse's wages. So transparent.
- jallonclone 11mo agoAs I've explained to my NP colleagues (ones that have already completed school), this actually helps them (the impending oversupply threatens NP wages, as some of them are already having trouble finding the job they want since the 45 different APP degree offerings create an unrestricted supply). And while this might discourage some people from entering nursing, that will again only decrease the supply, which will increase the wages since you cannot replace nurses. But that would be a bad thing, as hospitals are already in a crunch trying to find nurses and pay them fairly (a large and different discussion). On the physician side, there's definitely big changes coming, and I'm banking on a move to up-front APPs and a few remote physicians overseeing things. But I'm actually also seeing a number of entities that hired a bunch of APPs and are now moving back to physicians only and saving money doing do (think urgent care, ED, inpatient), though some specialties work very efficiently with a primary APP or co-management model, particularly the procedural ones.
- deepsun 11mo ago> impending oversupply Why? As you said, hospitals have a hard time finding nurses (undersupply), so more nurses would be better for patients and hospitals. An influx of more nurses could ease the undersupply, but I don't see why it would necessary overcome it completely and even lead to the impeding oversupply.
- jallonclone 11mo agoI'm talking about an oversupply of APPs (most NPs and related degrees), not nurses. Nurses are currently in short supply (hence the travel nurse phenomenon where some of them are paid more than physicians).
- le-mark 11mo agoLet me help with that APP: The acronym APP in the context of a nurse practitioner stands for Advanced Practice Provider
- pfannkuchen 11mo agoIt seems like there has probably been a lot of scope creep in the nursing role due to the artificially induced doctor shortage. Wonder if the de jure/de facto gap there plays a role in this decision and how it’s perceived.
- freakingcrap 11mo agoA nurse anesthetist median income in the U.S. is 223210 USD. They administer medicine throughout surgery, e.g. brain surgery, open heart surgery, etc. They make more than I do with over 25 years as a software engineer. If that’s not professional, what is?
- bparsons 11mo agoIncredible things happening in America these days.
- wyldberry 11mo agoThis applying to graduate degrees really does seem like the result of AMA lobbying to keep Nurse Practitioner numbers down. It is state and program dependent, but in some states NPs have prescribing authority, which cuts into the domain of MD/DO practice in the US. There are of course merits to the argument about NP training vs MD/DO training in Pharmacology, but overall this limits patient access in America to prescribed medicine. Congress, at the behest of AMA lobbying, had kept the number of Medicare funded residency slots capped at the same number since 1997 until the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021 which added 1000 new residence slots[0]. Starting in FY 2023 (October 1 2022) no more than 200 new positions would be added each FY meaning the full 1000 could be created no sooner than FY 2028 (October 1 2027). Given the medical school timeline of 7-10 years training (school, residency, fellowship) we won't see any meaningful impact from that until the mid 2030s. The US already has a much lower physician to patient ratio than Nordic countries (as a comparison between wealthy, western countries). The us has 2.97 active physicians per 1000 population, of which 2.52 are actual direct patient care physicians[2]. For comparison Sweden is ~5 per 1,000, Norway 4.5 per 1,000, Denmark 4.45 per 1,000, and Finland at 3.8 per 1000. Extra Bonus (Russian Federation reports 4.0 per 1,000)[3]. Note these numbers are as of 2020. In America, most people interface with doctors in order to get tests run and medicine prescribed. Reducing the incentive for RNs to move into NP by removing it's professional degree status will likely lower the amount of prescribing individuals a patient can interface with, increasing bottleneck and time to care. [0] - https://www.sgu.edu/news-and-events/new-residency-slots-approved-by-congress-what-it-means-for-medical-students/ https://www.sgu.edu/news-and-events/new-residency-slots-appr... [1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8370355/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8370355/ [2] - https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/data/2023-key-findings-and-definitions https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/data/2023-key-findings-and... [3] - https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-physicians-per-capita.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-...
- le-mark 11mo agoI haven’t seen a MD in years. I’ve only seen nurse practitioners, at least 5 years now. Health care in the US is deadly, expensive joke. But Fox and friends tell us how great it is compared to socialist countries! Yay!
- boomboomsubban 11mo agoWhy is there medicine and then like 8 kinds of medicine? Does this mean something like anesthesiology is also not 'professional?' Or why is podiatry singled out but not the others?
- jltsiren 11mo agoThey are different degrees based on different curricula. Anesthesiology is a specialization you can choose after finishing MD in "generic" medicine.
- sunkeeh 11mo agoExcluding nurse practitioners & physical therapists but including osteopaths, theologian & chiropractics is insane.
- insane_dreamer 11mo agoTheology is a professional degree, while Nursing is not. Dumbfounding. Handmaid's Tale may turn out not to be fiction after all.
- tim333 11mo agoWell if you know your theology you should know >Women should remain silent in the churches, They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church (St Paul, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle_and_women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle_and_women) though I think that stuff is a bit outdated even if it's in the Bible.
- insane_dreamer 11mo ago> a bit outdated "a bit"? like 2000 years outdated > even if it's in the Bible the Bible also says you get stoned to death for adultery; we bring that back, starting with Trump and all rich bozos who cheat on their wives, and then we can talk about women keeping silent in the church (not to mention that stoning is a very slow and painful death)
- jaybrendansmith 11mo agoThis is all about student loans, and destroying the academia, with a nice dose of quackery and anti-intellectualism thrown in for amusement. While it does not impact me at all to know my degrees are no longer 'professional', it really impacts folks trying to get loans to pay for college. Having less nurses and teachers out there is going to create many problems in the coming years, that is if we actually care about we the people.