20 ms·

Linux phones are more important now than ever

• daoboy 1y ago
  What is the advantage of a Linux phone over something like LineageOS?
  • jwrallie 1y ago
    If things keep going in the direction they are, there might not be a LineageOS at some point, and developing a useful alternative before that (Linux based) would be great.
    • em-bee 1y ago
      so we fork and continue to work on lineageOS. why start from scratch? (i mean, it's nice to have alternatives, but there is no reason not to continue developing an android fork.
      • Telaneo 1y ago
        Working on LineageOS doesn't help you if you can't even install it. Fewer and fewer phones come with unlockable bootloaders these days. The grip is tightening.
        • pavon 1y ago
          Yes, but if you are building your own phone hardware to run Linux on it, there is a huge advantage in that Linux flavor being an AOSP fork, since it is already mature.
          • j45 1y ago
            While that's a viable option as something some people can do, it will be for the few in general, not the many.
        • em-bee 1y ago
          right, but if you can't install a custom android, you can't install anything linux based or anything else for that matter. so that's a different issue entirely.
  • beeflet 1y ago
    You can run normal linux desktop and server programs with no limitations. The development and driver support is not guided by google.
• QuantumNoodle 1y ago
  The mobile app ecosystem has outgrown it's original purpose to run software in a constrained env. Phones today are more powerful than my engineering laptop in university 15 years ago. The app ecosystem appeal today is reach, platform lock-in, and great APIs. For example. I _want_ to run Linux phones even without all the apps & convenience, except Signal messenger. I am unable to use Signal without first registering through a mobile app. I suspect the desktop version will run fine-ish (proton after all). But at the end of the day, adoption will increase if mobile apps had a compatible desktop version on a Linux phone.
  • fossman 1y ago
    It's possible to register a Signal account using signal-cli. Available on Flathub, and also Alpine repos. You can use a mobile number or a landline. I use Signal Desktop on a Librem 5 and everything works except the camera (for video calls) unless I plug in a webcam. The camera does work with other apps though.
• charcircuit 1y ago
  >Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement. AOSP is open and is a much better starting place than anything else.
  • em-bee 1y ago
    right
  • dugite-code 1y ago
    Arguably the OS is the least important aspect. The greatest issues facing mobile computing are: 1. The lack of any open firmware 2. Locked bootloaders 3. Obnoxious security "features" a. Security attestation that is out of the owners control. b. One time burn out resistors when you do unlock a device.
• akagusu 1y ago
  Linux phones are useless for common people until they can run government and bank apps.
  • dmbche 1y ago
    What's an example of a government app
    • randunel 1y ago
      ROeID app, which is required by almost all RO government websites to log in.
    • abhinavk 1y ago
      Identity apps as well as apps to access government and social programs.
    • jeffparsons 1y ago
      In Australia: Centrelink, Service Victoria, Medicare, myID (formerly MyGovID), ATO (tax) — for a start. There's no great reason for these to be Android/Apple specific. I'm just offering examples as requested.
      • dmbche 1y ago
        And much appreciated - was not aware of these (other than covid vaccine apps really not seen them so far). Have a good day
    • JoaoCostaIFG 1y ago
      Portuguese government app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=id.gov.pt https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=id.gov.pt Allows you to have a digital copy of your ID and sign in to government sites/services (there are alternative methods).
      • mr90210 1y ago
        Oh João vai-te deitar pah. LMAO
• ocdtrekkie 1y ago
  I have made people mad by saying it, but it remains true: Every developer hour wasted on an Android ROM is an hour not invested in a platform free of Google's control. Google likes Android ROMs because they pacify the developer community from working on real competitors, while not presenting any meaningful threat to their control of the majority of Android devices. The MADA that prevented OEMs from shipping AOSP is probably dead but what hardware manufacturer is going to risk Google's ire by shipping something.
  • spankibalt 1y ago
    > Every developer hour wasted on an Android ROM is an hour not invested in a platform free of Google's control. As it stands, and the way things are devoloping, accurate. But as the relevant systems are an integration of hard- and software, significant work needs to be done on the former as well. And I've yet to come across a Linux phone (or phone-like pocket computer) that ticks most of the neccessary boxes.
    • ocdtrekkie 1y ago
      Agreed, the Linux phone landscape is far from daily driver ready even for a lot of tech enthusiasts. But that's also why it's so important people spend development time trying to solve that instead of screwing with ROMs. Short of a strong profit motive, Linux mobile needs a lot of volunteer effort.
• jeffparsons 1y ago
  My Android phone prevents me from taking screenshots if an app author doesn't want me to. My Android phone prevents me from recording phone calls at the request of my carrier, even though it's totally legal for me to do so in my jurisdiction. I'm not loving where this is all going.
  • craftkiller 1y ago
    < recording phone calls FWIW the default phone app on GrapheneOS supports recording phone calls.
    • 7e 1y ago
      Did a nation state ask GrapheneOS to add that feature?
      • zamadatix 1y ago
        Why is it always "nation state" when this is brought up, do states and nations that aren't congruous not represent a perceived threat?
        • floren 1y ago
          "nation state" has a particular meaning and it's not just "a smart-sounding way to say country" but it tends to get used that way.
          • tsimionescu 1y ago
            It does have a particular meaning, but it is one that's not relevant in this context, and it's probably narrower than what the poster intended. For example, Belgium is not a nation state, but I'm sure the GGP would be surprised by an answer like "no, it wasn't a nation state, Belgium asked them to do it".
            • metabagel 1y ago
• ed_mercer 1y ago
  I also strongly felt this when support for sideloading apps got dropped, and from my personal experience of dealing with rooting and working around play integrity. It shouldn't have to be like this.
  • j45 1y ago
    Side-loading was the original loading before app stores. App stores were the option.
• debo_ 1y ago
  I didn't know syncthing-android had been discontinued. I use that app heavily. (Linked from the post: https://forum.syncthing.net/t/discontinuing-syncthing-android/23002 https://forum.syncthing.net/t/discontinuing-syncthing-androi...)
  • staviette 1y ago
    The fork by Catfriend01 available through F-Droid works great...for now. I too use it heavily and worry about it's future on android.
  • greenavocado 1y ago
    Use syncthing fork on fdroid
  • tripdout 1y ago
    There's a maintained fork.
• spankibalt 1y ago
  > Linux phones are more important now than ever Agreed. So get to it and design/built some worthwile ones. EDIT: That was obviously not an order to the the parent, but more a lamentation about and call to the industry. Sorry kids; I sometimes forget that the binars are allergic to ambiguities. :)
• loughnane 1y ago
  I deeply want the equivalent of Debian on a phone. Rock solid. Every few year feature updates, only security fixes otherwise.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • beeflet 1y ago
    You can install debian on a pinephone https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/PINE64/PinePhone https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/PINE64/PinePhone But for a "normal" linux environment on a phone I recommend postmarketOS. They make an effort to support a variety of user interfaces, init systems, devices. Still, it is important to consider that the hardware and driver support is the limiting factor here. The camera is very bad on the pinephone because it doesn't have the image processing capability to record video in realtime. It also has no OpenGLES3 or Vulkan. Very poor lima GPU.
  • righthand 1y ago
    Plasma Mobile[0] on Mobian[1] is getting pretty decent. [0] https://plasma-mobile.org/ https://plasma-mobile.org/ [1] https://mobian-project.org/ https://mobian-project.org/
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
• Tewboo 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • beeflet 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • tomhow 1y ago
      Please don't comment like this on HN. The guidelines ask us to do better than this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      • beeflet 1y ago
        I am pretty certain it's a bot though. Look at their comment history. It's like chatGPT responses
        • gnabgib 1y ago
          The history does, never the less - an email is better than a comment: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.
• rickydroll 1y ago
  The only thing that keeps me on Pixel is Google's astrophotography mode. Put the same quality camera (app and hardware), and I'm there. I'll get there faster if there is an Ektachrome and Tri-X film emulation setting. I miss the colors of film, but do not miss the chemistry or expense.
  • c420 1y ago
    Throw in Velvia emulation for an even three wishes
  • dmbche 1y ago
    I'm sure I sound like and ass, but if astrophotography is the only thing tying you to your phone, why not gear for that?
    • rickydroll 1y ago
      Nah, not an ass. Just not up to speed yet. Using traditional cameras (repurposed DLSRs or fancy webcams like ZWO). There is a significant hurdle, of expense, learning how to use them, and setting them up. A Pixel makes sky-wide astrophotography trivially easy with almost no setup required. Depending on how stable the camera mount is, the pixel will allow me to start over on the novice side of the scale. I've been able to take handheld pictures of the Aurora and other large sky images, such as lightning in twilight thunderstorms. If I can rest the camera somewhere stable, I can take longer exposures and even create a time-lapse of the night sky. There's a lot to be said for pulling your phone out of your pocket and taking pictures of the sky.
• jigglypuff42 1y ago
  Yes, the steam deck has ignited the usecase for the portable linux machine for the normal user. Now we just need great linux on arm support and then I can run a version claude code on a portable arm device and have it control my whole device for me all day. I hope this happens sometime soon!!!
• thebiblelover7 1y ago
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but what would be the advantage of running straight Linux versus an AOSP-based mobile OS? Like, why not just keep the great apps that do run on there and ignore the Play Integrity ones that don't. Does it have to do mainly with just the governance of AOSP (i.e. Google)?
• canadiantim 1y ago
  Only issue is it’s so hard to use a Linux phone as a daily driver. I have a librem 5, but I admit it’s just too raw of an experience for me to use as a daily driver.
  • Nursie 1y ago
    I had a Neo Freerunner. It was a terrible experience. I bought it with the impression that it had calls, texts etc working fine, and they were looking for developers to come along and add apps, games, whatever to round out the experience. I couldn't have been more wrong. They had about four different distros. There was the 'old' one, the 'new' one which was already scheduled for deprecation because of the new-new one in the pipeline and there was also a debian distro. Each one used an entirely different UI framework (gtk/efl/qt), and the developers seemed focused on these endless interface rewrites when the unit couldn't reliably receive a call or a text under any of them. After that I had a Nokia N900, which was a great experience. They'd nailed down the basics perfectly (as you'd expect from a much larger company) and the unit was a capable smartphone with linux under the hood and easily accessible. It's just a shame the app ecosystem never took off, and nokia flushed itself down the toilet shortly thereafter. I guess Sailfish is the successor in this space, though I liked that Maemo was debian-ish rather than rpm-ish :) I guess what I'm saying is that a linux phone doesn't have to be raw, but for god's sake make it able to take calls and send a few messages...
• neilv 1y ago
  (Warning: Am only a software/product engineer, playing dilettante here, not an actual marketing/business expert.) Awhile back, I was thinking that one pragmatic way to get this viable Linux smartphone moving might be for hobbyists to focus on getting one easily available, affordable device working fully with pure Debian or PostmarketOS (no closed drivers or other modules, and preferably no blobs) and with Purism's Phosh. Then that would boost contributions to, and demand for, Purism's open source platform/components for Librem 5 (and whatever the successor hardware would be). If the cheap hardware is something like PinePhone, I'm just going to handwave that maybe this device won't cannibalize much sales of Purism's premium devices, but instead the community investment into the platform will effectively generate much higher net demand for Purism's premium products. With higher volume, Purism could maybe also hit more accessible price points. If the Purism hardware demand happens, then there may be competing hardware entrants. And they will have to compete partly on being trustworthy and aligned with the interests of the kinds of customer who want to run a non-Apple, non-Google device. Where Purism should have a head start in credibility and goodwill. The new entrants will have to contribute engineer time (possibly: pay community contractors) to getting their device to work well with this platform, and be expected to upstream all of it as open source to the platform mainline, if they want to be attractive to these customers. (I'm not saying the cheap device has to be PinePhone; that just seemed the most likely one at the time. It could even be something like an older popular Pixel model, with many unlockable-bootloader units available cheap on eBay, for which people are able to assemble/develop open source drivers. Or maybe GrapheneOS will get their own device built, and it can also be used for this non-Android-based open Linux platform.)
  • Telaneo 1y ago
    > to focus on getting one easily available, affordable device working fully with pure Debian or PostmarketOS (no closed drivers or other modules, and preferably no blobs) and with Purism's Phosh. I'm not sure how viable this is. Linux phones already opt for hardware that's as open as possible, i.e. they use parts with the most open documentation and drives, but the trade-off to that is that those parts are functionally already end-of-life when they're in the phone, either because it's an old design that's been opened up to squeeze a bit more money out of an old design, or the design was third-rate to begin with. Not to mention that the baseband side of things is closed no matter what, so the phone that's completely true to the FOSS ideals seems impossible to make no matter what. And who would buy a phone with a third-rate chip and battery life? And since very few people buy them, prices aren't able to drop any significant amount. I understand why people aren't willing to make a devils bargain in order to make a decent phone first, and then put Linux on it second, but I can't see any other way for this to happen, other than the phone market magically becoming more open somehow. If you could install Linux on any phone, since all the drivers are already out there, then we wouldn't be in this pickle, but every single Android phone out there has a different set of drivers and very few of them are open and possible to implement without an enormous amount of work, unlike the PC world, were at this point, only the really weird stuff (and Wifi from certain vendors) doesn't have some form of Linux driver.
• jauntywundrkind 1y ago
  I fully think an amazing consumer-targetting device could take over like a storm if done well, if ambitiously done, with an aggressive software stack. But. I think what we should ask for now should be simpler. Let this be an alpha geek toy, let folks fiddle with some basic devices boards that can do the thing. The work on PinePhone, Mobian, others is good pioneering work, alas largely held back by there just being so few decent devices for folks to play with. The driver situation keeps making hope here impossible. It's not a high hope, but Qualcomm has a QCM6490 chip is maybe a rare hope. A chip that is somewhat buyable by regular makers, an extended life version of the Snapdragon 778G. It's pretty modern, and comes with very featureful connectivity hardware. We're seeing variants like non-cellular Radxa Dragon Q6A in the field. Particle has a new Tachyon board you can buy with it. https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/07/31/tachyon-business-card-sized-sbc-based-on-qualcomm-qcm6490-arm-ai-soc-with-5g-and-wifi-6-connectivity/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/07/31/tachyon-business-car... It's just stunningly rare alas that folks can make systems with vaguely modern cellular chips. The cores are just not available generally. Sure it's be great to have a well produced Linux phone that is super consumer acceptable with a great OS build out, a new or revived Maemo or a Jolla Sailfish: folks who can go sign the NDAs and make a consumer device but have it be Linux. But I think for this dream to really take hold, humanity needs to be afforded some possibility to have an honest shake, some chance to be a little closer to the machine than typical cellphone bargain. The lack of cellular chip availability has been so so damning to this quest. And here is one counter-example, a crack in the wall, where I see flowers and hope grow. There was some real nice moments where it seemed like maybe some Snapdragon cellphones in general we're getting Linux support to some level, in mainline, just for the base stuff. No cellular. Unclear to me but it seems like maybe those were just the very barest of beginnings; whether any peripherals at all work or whether there was even a screen is unclear. The trickle of releases also seems to have died off. FWIW though, I will note the previous Fairphone 5 does use the above QCM6490. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.1-Arm-Hardware https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.1-Arm-Hardware
  • fabrice_d 1y ago
    PostmarketOS seems to have decent support for the Fairphone 5: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Fairphone_5_(fairphone-fp5) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Fairphone_5_(fairphone-fp...
• IlikeKitties 1y ago
  >Banking requiring an Android or iOS Device for 2fa >My local postal service requiring an Android or iOS Device to unlock those postal delivery boxes >My local public transport requiring a Android or iOS Wallet app for my ticket to be used >My Health Insurance Provider requiring an Android or iOS App to see my own insurance data This is my daily struggle. All of these companies refuse to engage with you on this topic, you get a canned response from support that's it. How do we even win this fight? As far as I can tell we've already lost.
  • Telaneo 1y ago
    I was hoping the US becoming more hostile towards Europe would wake them up and allow the relevant legislators to discover that the entire industry is at the behest of two American companies. The same goes for cloud services in Europe, just with different companies, and OSes for that matter. Alas, this is a rather large set of elephants nobody in power cares to acknowledge.
    • IlikeKitties 1y ago
      >It works on my phone, whats your problem? t. Every politician ever. This won't be solved until politicians and the unthinking masses feel the pain of this stupidity directly. And Google and Apple will make sure that they calibrate the pain for the average Person just high enough that they will accept it.
• lutusp 1y ago
  Total agreement with the article's conclusions. I'm an Android developer who once had about six apps listed in the Play Store. But as time passed, maintenance became more and more baroque, and a simple Android version change required me to rewrite all my apps or lose my listings. Like many developers, I gave up. Then Google announced a decision to disallow sideloading (not clear when this will take effect) and many tablet/cellphone manufacturers intend to disallow bootloader unlocking. If all this happens, it basically closes the Android platform to anything but "official" software releases. Consider this from my perspective. My first computer was an Apple II in the late 1970s. I could do anything I wanted with it, and I did. But over the decades I've watched the world of software development -- with the exception of personally owned Linux machines -- gradually turn into a walled garden. What can I say -- it sucks the joy out of programming.
  • j45 1y ago
    Makes me think about mobile first web apps that just run out of the browser. Maybe Palm Pre's had it right all along with the html/js based OS in WebOS at that time. Just a little ahead of their time for OS, and missed challenging the iPhone by a bit.
    • OrangeMusic 1y ago
      I'm an Android developer and I really like Android development (Kotlin is a great language, Compose is also enjoyable). But, just like OP, I had a bunch of apps in the Play Store that I just stopped maintaining, and I'm totally disgusted with the app distribution story. Mobile web apps are a very good solution (plus you can use Kotlin/Compose Web!). It's not adapted to all kinds of apps of course...
• 7e 1y ago
  Where are the open source planes, trains, and automobiles? Medical equipment? Nuclear reactors? Open source cannot afford the quantity control/verification need for these domains. It’s the same for phones. At best you’re going to get an insecure mess.
  • defrost 1y ago
    https://makerplane.org/ https://makerplane.org/ (not a plane) https://www.youtube.com/@Ground-Effect/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Ground-Effect/videos Trains - not so hard, it's getting legit real track time that's the issue - and you can always 'cheat' with a Hi Rail Pickup Truck modification. Automobiles - .. you are kidding, right? You've never built (or met a builder of) a road certified car, truck, or other vehicle?
  • jamesnorden 1y ago
    People can and do build their own automobiles all of the time. See: https://www.youtube.com/@GrindHardPlumbingCo https://www.youtube.com/@GrindHardPlumbingCo
  • anthk 1y ago
    Open source literally drivers ADA compilers, toolkits, DICAM readers and whatnot. On security, your lovely propietary NT based kernels had so many CVE's and attacks that you could fill gigabytes of text with these.
• cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  Apologies if the idea is absurd, but wouldn't a Linux handheld without a cell modem be easier to build and distribute? Think something of an analogue to iPod Touches, which were iPhones sans the the phone part. This would skip a lot of the regulatory red tape, bring down costs, and make the devices more accessible so they’re in more developers’ hands. They’d have to tether from your primary phone which isn’t ideal, but workable.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • dsp_person 1y ago
    What about all these raspberry pi hats with cell modems? Are they missing anything like usable IMEI numbers or proprietary stuff? What's stopping an RPi compute module 3G/4G/5G DIY linux phone?
    • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
      Battery life is probably awful, mainly.
    • XorNot 1y ago
      The battery life would suck? It's not about whether you can build a phone, it's about whether you can build a decent phone.
  • righthand 1y ago
    I agree, I don't really need cell service when there is so much wifi. Even would just carry a basic phone for making calls/txts even when needed.
  • rjsw 1y ago
    I use a Nokia/HMD KaiOS phone as a 4G/Wifi router for the communications part of your idea.
    • ptx 1y ago
• joshdavham 1y ago
  Pardon my potentially naive question, but would Samsung ever develop their own OS? I imagine they're not necessarily happy about some of the latest changes to android.
  • monocasa 1y ago
    They'd almost certainly just fork android like the various Chinese companies and Amazon have done.
  • spease 1y ago
    Yeah, they could call it Tizen or something.
    • joshdavham 1y ago
      Please spare me the sarcasm...
  • internet2000 1y ago
    Bada and Tizen. They've been trying for 15 years. Tizen in particular is as Linux as it gets. Long story short: it's not something the market wants.
    • joshdavham 1y ago
      Interesting! > Long story short: it's not something the market wants. Who knows. Maybe this could change?
      • numpad0 1y ago
        The market HAD changed to what it is now from what it was. Most handheld manufacturers had garbage mobile app platforms back in 2007. Something happened in January of that year and they all started coughing blood.
    • j45 1y ago
      The market doesn't care what it's coded in, its just about end user convenience and usability. Android is Linux based, and so is iOS. They focused on the UX and what it took. It leaves it possible for linux to do it again.
• tho23i434234 1y ago
  Mao said "Let a thousand flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend". Then he killed off all those naive ones who stepped out. This is more or less the capitalist/liberalist/colonial/MAGA model from time immemorial: preach "freedom" to put yourself in a indispensable place. Then impose fascism with long-suspected hierarchies.
• VariousPrograms 1y ago
  As someone willing to put up with all manner of nonsense (overpriced/underpowered hardware, clunky UI, endless troubleshooting), battery life on mobile Linux devices alone prevents me from using them in the real world. Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? Librem/Pinephone/Juno can't. My uConsole can't. Different category, but my MNT mini laptop lasts like 4 hours and can't be left in standby for too long or it drains to zero. Meanwhile, it's been 10+ years since I've worried about daily battery life on mainstream mobile devices, even my 3-5 year old ones. I can fall asleep with Youtube playing and it's still playing when I wake up. I'm certainly not here to dunk on Linux phones. I want one! But if someone willing to put forth above average effort to use these devices can't realistically daily drive them, who can?
  • maheart 1y ago
    >Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? What's "actual use"? Furi FLX1 has the best battery life I've seen on a Linux phone. Idling, it last 3+ days. I'm sure it could survive 1 whole day of "actual use". I also think almost any (official) SailfishOS device would last a day of actual use.
    • nextos 1y ago
      SailfishOS is quite efficient. On Sony devices, I experienced maybe 15% extra battery life compared to stock Android, which is quite good given that Sony ROMs are excellent. Sony is known for their Sony Open Devices Program.
      • ux266478 1y ago
        I genuinely think if Sony offered a Linux phone and didn't lock it down too bad, they could serve as the catalyst for the whole market. I don't think I would trust any other company at this point to execute the platonic "Linux phone" we need. The uncompromising vision on building a fantastic product for the technically minded make them an obvious choice.
• 6510 1y ago
  Here is an idea I thought long and hard about for the last 3 seconds.... Say one, rather than making the entire phone modular, adds just one cartridge slot. Have it span the bottom half of the back of the phone and be a few mm deep. Cartridges can have 4 form factors. 1) flush with the back of the phone. 2) stick out from the back. 3) increase thickness of the entire phone. Or 4) like 3 but comes with the same slot as the phone so that one can stack cartridges. The first base phone should be functional by it self but have really low specs. A slow cpu, little memory, little storage, small battery. It may even run on android and have a ton of preloaded apps no one wants. Ideally the most expensive component should be the cartridge connector. And then, here it comes, you've already guessed it! The entire linux computer goes on the cartridge. Have a similar dock that turns the cartridge into a desktop computer and a dock that connects it to your PC. Software development would be glorious. In the initial demo it should run Windows! This will send a strong signal to other otherwise uninterested parties that this is a real computer... finally... While official builds should probably exist let other vendors go wild building their own proprietary closed source cartridges. There should be infinite possibilities. People will make things we cant imagine. Stuff we will never see on flagship phones because 99% doesn't need it. Some might simply but badly want usb ports. Stupid example: I have a digital camera, I have to plug it into a computer and do all kinds of things before they may appear on my server, like booting the machine, opening apps and figuring out where the hell folders are. The pictures are great but not that much better than my phone which can conveniently send them places. But what I really need is to just plug in the camera and have the technology figure out which are the new images and upload them. It should require zero screen time. The next guy might want an ethernet port, hdmi, serial, scan barcodes by pressing a real button that also unlocks and opens the correct app. You might even have a bulky cartridge that prints receipts. A large antenna and/or a week worth of battery. I'm not at all sure if people want it but a cassette player would be possible. A boom box with atx drive bays. etc etc Then when you buy the next generation or are bored playing with it, the screen is cracked and the battery is worn out you turn it into a security camera that works when the power is cut and can send [picture] sms, make phone calls and play threatening messages to intruders.
• avodonosov 1y ago
  Android doesn't even let you access your files. It has famously blocked acess to the subfolders of /Android/data/ - every app has a subfolder there where it stores files. And you can not visit these subfolders since Android 11. A buggy app accumulates gigabytes (literaly, i am not exagregating) of temp files there, but i cant visit the folder to delete them. Google explains that "it's for you safety". I have to call it with the strong word "idiotic". There are apps now where storing files in a shared, accessible folder is a payed option. Not only that is outrageous, I belive that violates the existing "right of access" laws like GDPR. I am condidering even submitting Subject Access Request to Google about my /Android/data/ subdirectories.
  • gertop 1y ago
    > A buggy app accumulates gigabytes (literaly, i am not exagregating) of temp files there, but i cant visit the folder to delete them. Settings > Apps > select the app > Storage and cache > Clear storage.
    • avodonosov 1y ago
      No, I dont want to clear storage - there is data I downloaded into the app and work with that I dont want to lose. But the app also accumulates some temp files there.
      • yehoshuapw 1y ago
        without access - how do you know the files are temp files?
        • avodonosov 1y ago
          I used to delete them on old Android version.
• kmeisthax 1y ago
  What you want isn't a "linux phone", what you want is a gun to put to the developers' heads so you can scream "let me tamper with your shit". If you just want "a phone OS", AOSP is still there and worth forking. But you don't want a phone OS, you want apps. And nobody is going to write apps for an AOSP fork (see also: Fire Phone). Actually, nobody is going to write apps for anything other than Android and iOS, just in general (see also: Windows 10 Mobile). App development for two phone platforms is already enough of a pain in the ass. Furthermore, Google will absolutely be anticompetitive and de-Google your phone OS whether you want it or not. But more importantly, if you do manage to create a third platform that people actually use, you are going to immediately be inundated for requests to lock down the phones in exactly the ways you object to, because a certain subset of app developers want or need that kind of DRM. And you're not going to get those apps without a DRM story that matches Google and Apple's. Streaming apps want encryption to the monitor. Games want a kernel the user can't modify. Banks want your phone to be a credit card you can't do fraud with. Hell, when macOS got support for native iOS apps, they specifically designed it so that iOS App Store apps won't run if you modified the OS in any way. And even then, a lot of iOS app developers specifically blocked macOS usage. The phone vendors aren't selling an OS, they're selling DRM.
  • Zak 1y ago
    I wonder what an alternate history where Google didn't implement remote attestation and actively made it difficult for apps to snoop on user modifications would look like. I suspect the Fire Phone is where things changed. If Amazon had iterated on it and done a good job, it might have been a competitive threat to Google's revenue model for Android; that's less likely if it won't run games and banking apps.
• politelemon 1y ago
  Are there any efforts being made around this? Any projects we could look at. I wonder if the pine phone was ahead of its time.
• OsrsNeedsf2P 1y ago
  Is this the highest upvoted fediverse link on HN?
• beebmam 1y ago
  We need something other than Linux on phones.
  • nicman23 1y ago
    it is not the kernel that is the issue. it is the userland that is the issue
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• frankzander 1y ago
  What I don't get (plz help me) is why out of a sudden this vendors close up their phones and why is Google going this way? What's their intend?
  • globular-toast 1y ago
    More money. More power. Greed. Don't ever underestimate human greed. It doesn't matter what people have or where they are, they will always want more. We only have what we have now because of a few very peculiar people like Richard Stallman, but now it's just a bunch of normies in control.
    • frankzander 1y ago
      I've always assumed that there is some money related intend behind this. But I can't figure out what money reason it is.
      • OhioMan2943 1y ago
        I'm guessing immortality I'm not joking. We may be the generation that has the right escape velocity to escape death. Vladimir putin mentioned it in his recent china summit
  • verisimi 1y ago
    It's not sudden, and it's about control. You probably don't remember a time when you could switch/remove batteries from your phone. All manufacturers removed this ability.
    • tmtvl 1y ago
      I have a Volla Phone running Ubuntu Touch. In order to insert my SIM and SD cards I had to take off the back cover (which is intended and I just had to pull on a small gap in a corner of the device) which also made it very obvious that it's easy to take out the battery should I have the need to swap it out.
    • 1y ago
• liendolucas 1y ago
  I tried the fantastic DroidVNC-NG (KUDOS to the author) app because I wanted to see if I could stream a whole Android phone left at home at all times. The idea was attempting to switch to PostmarketOS, so if I ever needed to use a banking app I could do it through this phone via a VNC client. You can't. Banking apps black the login screen. Even if that is ok for 99.9% of users, I know what I'm doing and I do not absolutely have the fucking choice to disable that. The thing I found out is that every time I come up with something that should be doable, either Android or the fucking app or something else prevents me from moving away. My biggest drag is banking because almost everything else I can leave it out. And I believe I don't have a choice.
  • verisimi 1y ago
    I see the banking complaint all the time, but most banks provide a web site too. Is it really such a chore to use the site rather than the app?
    • liendolucas 1y ago
      Fair point. I haven't actually tested the banking mobile webapp but I did test it from a regular PC and oh boy, it was like a 1999 web application. Not just because of the look and feel but everything was just odd and in the wrong places compared to the store app. I should probably try this from a mobile browser but the last time I used Firefox in Postmarket OS it behaved like a desktop browser (in fact I think I read somewhere that it is indeed a regular Firefox resized to be used in PostmarketOS) so I'm assuming that the experience is going to be really bad.
    • deivid 1y ago
      Mine no longer allows website login without phone 2FA. Considering finding a new bank.
  • deivid 1y ago
    Have you tried scrcpy? https://github.com/Genymobile/scrcpy https://github.com/Genymobile/scrcpy I ran this with a custom fork to expose the device screen as a VNC server for years, no problems
• karel-3d 1y ago
  Isn't Android... Linux? It's not "gotcha", just... there are many clones of Android that work without Google Play, because Android (AOSP) is based on Linux. Why not just use that? What does "linux phone" add?
  • Kenji 1y ago
    [dead]
  • yupyupyups 1y ago
    I have a feeling forking Android is less cumbersome than creating a Linux phone from scratch, and you get to keep compatibility with existing apps.
  • SahAssar 1y ago
    Android is a modified/patched linux kernel with a different userspace.
  • wiseowise 1y ago
    Google still controls direction of AOSP development.
  • blueflow 1y ago
    "Linux" is the name of the kernel but people use the word meaning something else. People want a "Linux Phone" but have trouble explaining what software stack they want and how Android is not already it.
  • pessimizer 1y ago
    Nobody actually cares about the kernel. They care about having control of their phones instead of the company that sold it to them, and they care that the userspace is normal, rather than weird and constantly changing according to the whims of the company that sold it to them. They do not want to carry conmen, swindlers, and spies in their pockets. People mocked Stallman for saying GNU/Linux. Turns out it's important to specify what you're talking about, or people will misunderstand you. I use Debian. If Debian rebased to BSD (forked and relicensed to GPL, with gnutils) I'd probably still use Debian. If iOS rebased to Linux, I still would never consider touching it. My opinion is that people actually want the political protection offered by the GPL and the people and projects who stick to it, like Debian (and others.) They do not acknowledge this to themselves. They usually want to be able to layer a few proprietary toys on top, but those are visitors who will be ejected for bad behavior, and they want an OS that will rat on that bad behavior when it sees it. They are afraid of this political project because they are afraid of politics (or because their professed meatspace politics turn out to be the opposite of what they actually want in their own lives.)
• dvh 1y ago
  EU should fork Android. Fund a small team of devs, nothing fancy, no major changes just keep it secure.
  • isaacremuant 1y ago
    The EU (and adjacent countries like UK or Schengen countries) loves surveillance and control of their citizens' speech (except if they're partbof their wealthy elite, in which case, there's nothing to see here).
    • ycombigators 1y ago
      Claiming control of citizens speech when you have a president literally censoring your media is kind of ridiculous. The claim free speech is under threat in Europe just demonstrates you are easily led by rabble rousers.
  • pndy 1y ago
    On paper this is a good idea but consider the current chat control issue. This fork would probably have built-in by default content, messages scanning and switching to any other Android would probably be ruled out as illegal.
  • GardenLetter27 1y ago
    Quaero was a disaster - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaero So many committees - so little progress.
  • takluyver 1y ago
    I think governments funding software development could be a useful counterweight in an industry dominated by a few giant corporations, similar to how lots of countries have state funded media alongside commercial options. But the EU forking Android is not a remotely realistic starting point. How do you persuade manufacturers to use it? Would Google license its proprietary apps to run on it? How will the small team of devs cope with whatever changes are coming in hardware next year? Forking Android is easy, making your fork a viable alternative is almost impossible. In theory the EU could throw its weight around and demand that Google & OEMs work with 'EUdroid' if they want to sell phones in Europe. But that would be a massive political fight, much bigger than funding a few developers.
• yoavm 1y ago
  This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the raise of vibe-coding can be great for Linux on the phone. The main issue the ecosystem seem to suffer from is lack of apps. Apps building is becoming way easier, especially for simple things. If the cost of making software is going to drop significantly, we might be able to finally fill in the apps gap.
• cbold 1y ago
  A simple WIFI/bluetooth only device like the iPod Touch but with Linux, combined with a modem puck would actually be enough. You separate the untrusted part from your own device.
  • jay_kyburz 1y ago
    Yeah, I always wanted to pink up one of those tiny GDP machines. They would be cool to play with! https://gpdstore.net/product-category/gpd-handheld-gaming-pcs/ https://gpdstore.net/product-category/gpd-handheld-gaming-pc...
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • fsflover 1y ago
    https://puri.sm/products/librem-11 https://puri.sm/products/librem-11
• ivanjermakov 1y ago
  Why don't we have an Android fork patched to fix all these "annoyances"? Android phone is just a computer, it should not be hard to unlock bootloader and flash it with anything. I understand that it would be cumbersome on Apple devices with all their efforts to lock down the system, isn't Android different?
  • p0w3n3d 1y ago
    I think it's because the Android latest changes are designed to prevent it. In other words, you can complicate the system to bring it to the place beyond fixing of the annoyances, or fixing would remove features you've entangled into it.
  • Sayrus 1y ago
    Manufacturers can prevent you from unlocking bootloader. Whether they are Apple or not. Samsung used to have a hard fuse that broke when you unlocked, it seems they now forbid it entirely. Apps developers can decide to require Play Integrity so your Android fork cannot be used to run their apps. Google can decide to not support or explicitly exclude your custom fork. Due to Play Integrity used on their own products, you cannot run Wallet on most forks where Google is not running as root. Google can decide to delay or not publish source code so your Android fork cannot be maintained anymore. Manufacturers, Google and developers can alter that deal at any point in time. Recently: - Delayed patch of AOSP unless your are a partner: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45158523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45158523 - Wall of shame of manufacturers locking bootloader: https://github.com/melontini/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame https://github.com/melontini/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame Those "annoyances" are only one of the attacks made, and not all of them can be easily defended against without having the manpower to actually maintain your own hardware and software stack.
• Panzer04 1y ago
  What's the hardest part about an open phone? Cellular support? App support? Maybe I'm unique, but nowadays 99% of my phone time is spent in a browser. If anything, it seems easier now to get something like this going because all you'd need is a bare bones UI and a good web browser. Sure, it's not competitive with a Samsung foldable, but he I've gotta start somewhere... I do sort of wonder if an x86-based phone is at all a reasonable prospect. It seems a bit weird to go backwards but at least they've sorted out the generally open ecosystem part XD. Power consumption is 99% about the software anyway.
  • raxxorraxor 1y ago
    I almost exclusively use the browser as well. I think the reason for that is simply because the software landscape is that bad. I hate the Playstore or Apple Store with a burning passion. They are all adware/malware nightmares that aren't worth the effort, never mind developing for them. We have really interesting and good hardware, but it is all moot because the software landscape is plain hell. I really puts me off to ever use a Apple or Google platform. I would immediately jump to x86 regardless of power consumption. Would probably still run better than my current phone with a sizeable battery because 95% of CPU time is crappy routine you didn't even want running, so that is a software problem as well. With the power usage of screens, I doubt an x86 processor would be noticeably worse. Sorry for the rant, but I don't understand how anyone could react differently if they hear the word Android or iOS. Why did we end up with this crap?
    • Panzer04 1y ago
      Path dependence I guess. Software is what people want and once a software ecosystem settles in place it gets a lot harder to move away later because of all the stuff you have to adapt and fix. As far as I can tell there's no inherent reason an x86 device would have worse battery than ARM if you use the right processor. Pick up some small Lunar Lake chip, tune it low, aggressively tune the tasks you allow to run in the background etc. Cellular is a bit annoying, and I can't speak at all to the difficulty of integrating with legacy phone services, but data access seems pretty easy to get with an external modem (maybe power consumption will suck..) Definitely phone software landscape is abysmal. Everyone trying to lock down their stores and charge egregious prices to developers for the privilege of giving them access to their captive user markets. Makes me appreciate how fortunate we are to have Linux at all, and even Windows is leagues better, although MS is doing everything they can to develop their own little walled garden, albeit thankfully that horse has long bolted.
• xzstas 1y ago
  A couple of last years were quite impressive in how mobile linux improved. Still, people claim: - open-source phones are low-end devices - but we (also) write our DTS for phones like Xiaomi, Samsung, OnePlus, etc. Personally, I've written dts for my Xiaomi 12 lite and packaged postmarketOS for it. for devices like Fairphone - there's already a good level of support in mainline - mobile linux is slow and laggy - this comes from the 1st point. modern smartphones works quite smooth, and mine xiaomi phone running on sm7250 (mid level soc from qcom) feels very snappy. hell, even desktop browsers works quite good on more or less modern phones (chromium is especially smooth) - UI is trash - please check out gnome-mobile. it's an impressive piece of work and feels very much like modern mobile UIs - my bank/government/etc forces me to use ios/android app - we have waydroid! so, you can run any android app from your launcher (which will be running inside a container with lineageos). the integration might not be super complete right now, although it closes the gap for me. Of course, there are many gaps (like camera works on very few devices and photo/video quality cannot be compared to android; some apps are still not adaptive) but many enthusiasts continue to improve on all the directions. Kudos to all of them! Personally, I wait for VoLTE and immutable systemd-based pmOS.
• 3036e4 1y ago
  My next phone will almost certainly be two phones. One cheap and super standard Android phone to just run banking apps and similar that insists on Google Play etc. Locked down and boring, turned off most of the time. Then a second phone for everything else (terminal with sshd, emacs, emulators, media players ... the stuff that allows a phone to be the general purpose computer it should be). Looks increasingly unlikely that there will be convenient ways to have the best of both those worlds in a single device. For now it is somewhat possible with Android, but the experience keeps getting worse.
  • masfoobar 1y ago
    After just submitting my recent post --- I do like your suggestion. Maybe 2 phones are the way forward. Maybe a PAYG phone which stays at home on my network for particular needs like banking. Then a standard phone which is essentially a GNU/Linux distro.... mmm... Emacs on my phone sounds lovely!
    • hollow-moe 1y ago
      you won't even be able to use the closed phone remotely from your main one since the restrictions wont allow remote software to see or interact with the screen
    • stronglikedan 1y ago
      > Maybe a PAYG phone which stays at home on my network for particular needs like banking. If you're only doing banking at home, why would you do it on such a tiny little device?
      • 3nt3 1y ago
        They probably mean for TAN apps
    • c6401 1y ago
      > Emacs on my phone sounds lovely! Meanwhile, you can use it in termux if you are on android right now.
• codethief 1y ago
  While I share the concerns about Android, it feels silly to me to go back to Linux's (nonexistent) security model and bad mobile UI/UX. Why not try to fork AOSP or GOS (for broader device compatibility, even if it means giving up some its sexy security properties)? Note that this could include packaging Linux GUI applications as Android APKs (with some additional glue code and Wayland/DBus integration of course), so it's not even an either or.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    > I share the concerns about Android > Why not try to fork AOSP or GOS Which concerns do you share? Both AOSP and GOS must follow the Google development strategy, they aren't exactly independent on Google (which is a problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208925). Nevertheless GOS on Librem 5 or Pinephone would be a nice idea, except the GOS developers are against that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45101400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45101400 > Linux's (nonexistent) security model Linux's security model is based on trusting the software you're installing from the FLOSS repositories, and it works very well.
    • gf000 1y ago
      > Linux's security model is based on trusting the software you're installing from the FLOSS repositories, That's not a security model, and we don't live in fairyland. Just take a look how well this works with npm packages. It just so happens that emacs plugins are not the most worthwhile target for attackers.
      • fsflover 1y ago
        > npm packages This has nothing to do with what I said. npm is not a trusted or a FLOSS repository. > we don't live in fairyland When did you see a malware in Debian's repositories last time?
        • jovial_cavalier 1y ago
• alphabetmedia 1y ago
  [dead]
• masfoobar 1y ago
  I keep my eye on Linux phones from time-to-time. By "linux" -- I guess I mean using a phone that runs a valid linux distribution that gives me freedom of control as well as software freedom. I know people have a love/hate with environments like GNOME, but I don't mind it and happy for it on my phone.. as long as it adapts nicely on smaller screens. My only issue is applications. Like many, I am using an Android/IPhone - and have installed various applications. Will any/most of these exist if/when I move over to a proper GNU/Linux phone? This is the biggest hurdle. While I would find ways around it, I think this is where most people would stick to what they are familiar with... even if it is impacting rights, legalities, and other things we are slowly losing control over, etc. I really do like the idea of Librem 5.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    I run Andoid apps on my Librem 5 using Waydroid.
    • masfoobar 1y ago
      Is Librem 5 you main or only phone? Interested in your opinions -- good and bad.
      • fsflover 1y ago
        It's my only phone. I gets hard when somebody tries to force an Android app on me. Waydroid works but takes a lot of disk space and is not very convenient (Purism promised usability updates though); the battery life is only enough for a day with light usage (but you can replace the battery without tools); js-heavy websites are slow (but NoScript fixes that). Calls, texts, taking pictures and video recording work. I never tried MMS, but some people made it work, too. I'm very happy with the desktop Firefox (with Ublock Origin!), full terminal, all Debian packages and the full desktop mode. Also with lifetime updates and independence from the megacorps.
    • masfoobar 1y ago
      Thanks for the info.
• 1oooqooq 1y ago
  we would have Linux phones already if people paid attention to the gpl war, which we lost with tainted kernels. but nobody will care and continue to think only bsd/mit/Apache will make their project be successful commercial enterprises. sigh.
• avsteele 1y ago
  The authors largest bullet point is on author identification. What are the arguments against this and do people really feel they outweigh the benefits? My view: I would think given how many code supply chain attacks we've see recently this would be be regarded as (at worst) a necessary evil. How much software used by large numbers of people does the open source community think will be done by anons? Sidenote: The author implies SyncThing development was stopped due to author ID but the post linked does not say this and gives a completely different reason (forced updates)
• poetaster 1y ago
  I'm a very happy Sailfish OS user, since 2016, before that Meego, Maemo (Nokia N900, N9). I do have an android phone for one App (Deutsche Post) which I use only when I need to ship stuff. Running on a Gigaset (made in Germany, 4KmA battery) I generally get two days of usage, 1 day if I'm stuck on Mastodon. From being able to do SDL2 stuff (Godot 3.5 for instance) with a wayland compositor to just not having f'ked UI, I'm happy. The challenge of getting more apps is certainly a challenge. But that's good, gives me lots to do. Linux on Mobile has already long been here to stay.
  • jones89176 1y ago
    Oh, hello, i recognize your username from the jolla forums :-) I do have two Gigasets here (GX290 and GX4 pro) waiting to be flashed, but I still need to finally set up a windows machine to make a proper backup of the stock android images and generate the scatter files. Like with most of the SoC-Vendors, the MTK tools are quite a PITA. I have to download some weird binaries from some weird websites. How can it be that there are no official tools available for things like this?! And there is one more Question I have since you're already here ;-) I'm already doing embedded Linux development in my day job, so I would say I have quite some knowledge in that area. However I haven't found a good introduction to this whole "porting" topic. Do you have some advice on how to get started in that direction? What exactly happens when I flash (say) sailfish onto some (specific) Android version? Why do I even need this? How does the whole libhybris thing work and why don't people just use the binary drivers from some Android image? It's all very confusing to me. Especially since people from the android corner seem to use different terminology that the embedded Linux crowd... anyway, thanks for your work so far. I hope I can join the SFOS users (again) soon!
    • poetaster 1y ago
      Ah, I just abandon the idea of recovery on these phones and use the ubports installer once. Thereafter, I just flash directly. I have done the MTK tools dance, but don't any longer. Sorry :( Ah, I have to admit I don't know much about porting :) We did put up a community wiki and the HADK is up there: https://sailfishos.wiki/books/hadk/page/hadk https://sailfishos.wiki/books/hadk/page/hadk so that you might get some idea of the process ... I'm not sure to what extent this is different from that 'halium' builds that piggz makes. It makes sense to ask him directly, since he has a stream lined process that targets, among others, the phones you have. As to why the hardware adaption layer is needed (ie. the android one) it's where all the binary blobs are :) Among other bits.
• t1234s 1y ago
  I think certain "Apps" that you need to do "X" keep this from happening. You can have a super lean, private and secure linux phone using super clean, fast OSS software to do what you need to do, but what happens if you need one of the mainstream apps (Uber, etc..) to function in society with the rest of the normies. Maybe a linux phone that can dual-boot into android? I doubt we will ever see companies pulling out of the app stores and offering browser-based solutions that will work on any device or OS.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    You can run Android apps with Waydroid. If the app doesn't want to run in a non-approved environment, then you can have a problem with Android forks, too. See also: https://puri.sm/posts/closing-the-app-gap-momentum-and-time/ https://puri.sm/posts/closing-the-app-gap-momentum-and-time/
• curtisszmania 1y ago
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• dcchambers 1y ago
  I have started just carrying my laptop around with me more and more. I increasingly only use my phone to make calls, text people, and take pictures of my kids. Any time I want to use the internet I default to my laptop. This started as a way for me to reduce screen time and addiction with my phone, but the second order effect is that I don't feel limited by what a phone can do. Despite the fact that our phones are more powerful than ever and can easily run desktop-grade software, phone makers/mobile overlords have decided that they need to be controlled like Fisher Price toys. My little 13" MBA lasts literally multiple days between charges with a couple hours of daily usage. A Linux laptop would work fine too.
• redbell 1y ago
  Unrelated question: What is this feddit.org site? It seems like reddit but I have never heard about it! I checked and it appears this is the very first post ever posted here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=feddit.org https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=feddit.org
  • thuruv 1y ago
    born as the federated edition of reddit, gained traction over the mass exodus.
  • eigenspace 1y ago
    Lemmy[1] is a federated Reddit-a-like running on the ActivityPub protocol. feddit.org is one particular instance of a Lemmy server that's hosted in Germany. Personally, I'm pretty enthusiastic about the whole Lemmy project, and I think it's actually a much better fit to the federated ActivityPub model than Mastodon. [1] https://join-lemmy.org/ https://join-lemmy.org/
• Arch-TK 1y ago
  But like, it won't matter how many viable Linux phones there are if the government tells you that if you want to pay your taxes you must first buy a piece of hardware blessed by an american corporation and running blessed software which doesn't let you control the device in order to access the tax payment portal. Because if you don't pay your taxes, the government will insist that you go to prison. The problem isn't really what google is doing, the problem is that were letting our existence as free citizens in a society depend on a piece of blessed hardware/software we must carry around with us everywhere we go. We need to strongly resist having software/to become strongly codependant on hardware broadly speaking. But especially software/hardware that we can't control and which is sold by two american companies.
  • fossman 1y ago
    I agree. Is there any country that requires an app to file your taxes?
    • Arch-TK 1y ago
      Maybe, who knows. It was an example. All I know is countries like Denmark and maybe soon all of Europe seem completely carefree with regard to making citizenship depend on device ownership so... Quite a few banks in the UK now require an app, and that's a liability for me as who knows when they'll arbitrarily decide to lock me out of my account because I am not running stock google android. The bank I'm with uses a hardware token which I can tolerate because, while it does require a codependence on hardware, at least the hardware is provided for free by the bank. I can also manage my account over the phone without the hardware.
• butz 1y ago
  Forget Linux phones for a moment, let's start with Linux PDA. As telephony part is probably the hardest to solve due to proprietary drivers and regulations, how about building tiny PDA device that does everything else except "phone stuff" - get a dumbphone for calls and SMS, maybe some will have wifi tether. And after this PDA projects grows traction, it will be time to push for telephony support.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    What are you talking about? The telephony part has been solved in Librem 5 and Pinephone. Also, this question has already been asked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45257448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45257448
    • butz 1y ago
      Looking at postmarketOS devices page only 20 community supported devices have "Calls" listed as "fully implemented". Clearly this is the main hurdle for true "Linux Phone". And those devices are a bit old, ranging from 2014 to 2020, and that makes them harder to obtain, also battery might be in need of replacing. And Pinephone is currently out of stock. Cannot comment about Librem 5, but its price is quite high. So, ignoring my silly idea of "PDA" - which Linux phone should I buy and how could I contribute to its success?
      • fsflover 1y ago
        > only 20 community supported devices You realize it's a result of reverse-engineering done by volunteers? To me it looks like a large number actually. The main hurdle for true "Linux Phone" is the lack of free drivers and specs, such that volunteers must spend tremendous efforts to make basic things work. > which Linux phone should I buy and how could I contribute to its success? To help Linux ecosystem on mobile, you could support vendors who intentionally provide free drivers or specs and help improve the software running on their devices. AFAIK only Pinephone and Librem 5 fit here. The former is in stock from time to time. Also many users of GNU/Linux phones run Phosh developed by Purism. Helping to improve it would help the whole community.
• sailmates 1y ago
  Shameless plug for our association. We focus on helping end users adopting "alternative mobile OS", we compiled a list of those alternatives on our website: https://sailmates.net/actors/ https://sailmates.net/actors/ we also provide phones at-cost (aka without making benefits) for users interested in those alternatives but without the technical knowledge to flash one https://sailmates.net/get_your_phone/ https://sailmates.net/get_your_phone/
• Ulrich_lemmy 1y ago
  [dead]
• schnatterer 1y ago
  I am surprised that no one criticized kernel architecture as base for a secure mobile OS, yet. Let me heat up the discussion using this quote > The Linux kernel has atrocious security. It has an anti-security architecture, implementation and culture. The Linux kernel is not a good base for building any new operating system with a focus on privacy and security https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114665594121762341 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114665594121762341
  • mixmastamyk 1y ago
    It's good enough with app sandboxing, firewalls, storage encryption, etc. Vast majority of us are not CIA operatives.
• contingencies 1y ago
  rather than campaigning for open phones, i think we need to actively campaign against the requirements for phones in society. like, get some laws passed that say "if you require a phone number from someone, that's discriminatory/illegal". this way we can remove the carriers, remove the population-wide location tracking, and ensure systems such as public transit, government interfaces, finance, etc. are still accessible.
• yggdrasil_ai 1y ago
  It would be so much easier to build apps if phones just ran linux, unless I am misunderstanding something? I would love to run my own server on my phone def.
• colonial 1y ago
  Minority report: I will likely just switch to an iPhone, despite my typical gripes with Apple. I've always seen my smartphone as a tool that doesn't do "much" (compared to a "real" computer) but can be relied on to always do what I need, whereas the inverse is ~true for my Linux desktop. (Think "bank app" versus "running Photoshop.") By this metric, the only thing that historically ranked Android above iOS for me - even despite all the Google concerns - was sideloading and general openness. Now that that's basically gone, I may as well move to a mobile OS that at least pretends to give a damn about my privacy.
• mox512 1y ago
  My Android phone prevents application installation from 3rd party sources