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OpenAI's ChatGPT Agent casually clicks through "I am not a robot" verification
- exasperaited 1y agoA very poetic demonstration that this is an industry, and a set of fortunes for very unpleasant people, predicated entirely on theft and misrepresentation.
- rany_ 1y agoThe only reason why people don't use AI models to solve captchas is because paying humans is actually MUCH cheaper. This is not an advert, I only know about them because it was integrated with Invidious at some point: https://anti-captcha.com/ https://anti-captcha.com/ > Starting from 0.5USD per 1000 images
- im3w1l 1y agoThere is nothing preventing this from becoming an issue. The current internet order is coasting on inertia.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- bugtodiffer 1y agoWhy is it an issue that non-humans visit your site?
- diggan 1y agoApparently serving HTML + other static content is more expensive than ever, probably because people go the most expensive routes for hosting their content. Then they complain about bots making their websites cost $100/month to host, when they could have thrown up Nginx/Caddy on a $10/month VPS and basically get the same thing, except they would need to learn server maintenance too, so obviously outside the question.
- johnisgood 1y agoI think this is way too true, unfortunately. I will say this again, but I think lowering the barrier to entry has created more problems or issues than it solved, if it even solved anything.
- miki123211 1y ago3 reasons basically: 1. non-humans can create much more content than humans. There's a limit to how fast a human can write, a bot is basically unlimited. Without captchas, we'd all drown in a see of Viagra spam, and the misinformation problem would get much worse. 2. Sometimes the website is actually powered by an expensive API, think flight searches for example. Airlines are really unhappy when you have too many searches / bookings that don't result in a purchase, as they don't want to leak their pricing structures to people who will exploit them adversarially. This sounds a bit unethical to some, but regulating this away would actually cause flight prices to go up across the board. 3. One way searches. E.g. a government registry that lets you get the address, phone number and category of a company based on its registration number, but one that doesn't let you get the phone numbers of all bakeries in NYC for marketing purposes. If you make the registry accessible for bots, somebody will inevitably turn it into an SQL table that allows arbitrary queries.
- p3rls 1y agoi run a small wiki/image host and for me it's mainly: 4. they'll knock your server offline for everyone else trying to scrape thousands of albums at once while copying your users' uploads for their shitty discord bot and will be begging for donations the entire time too
- Aurornis 1y agoIf you have a static site with content you want to share broadly, nothing is wrong. It becomes a problem when it’s used to spam unwanted content faster than your human moderators can come up with. Someone might bot to scrape your content and repackage it on their own site for profit. The bots might start interacting with your real users, making them frustrated and driving them away.
- metalman 1y agofrom "anti captcha" it looks like they are doing as many as 1000/sec solves, 60k min, 3.6 million an hour it would be very interesting to see exactly how this is bieng done?....individuals....teams....semi automation, custom tech?, what? are they solving for crims? or fed up people? obviously the whole shit show is going to unravel at some point, and as the crims and people providing workarounds are highly motivated, with a public seathing in frustration, whatever comes next, will burn faster
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ACCount36 1y agoThey're solving for everyone who needs captchas solved. It's a very old service, active since 00s. Somewhat affiliated with cybercrime - much like a lot of "residential proxies" and "sink registration SMS" services that serve similar purposes. What they're doing isn't illegal, but they know not to ask questions. They used to run entirely on human labor - third world is cheap. Now, they have a lot of AI tech in the mix - designed to beat specific popular captchas and simple generic captchas.
- lan321 1y agoHalf of their employees seem to be from Venezuela. Makes sense considering what they did/do in OSRS to earn a living.
- amelius 1y agoI want this in my browser, and I'll happily pay $1 per 1000 uses.
- samschooler 1y agoLucky you :) https://antcpt.com/eng/download/mozilla-firefox.html https://antcpt.com/eng/download/mozilla-firefox.html
- amirhirsch 1y agoCaptcha can detect the same person passing a captcha over and over. We shadow-ban to increase the cost of this kind of attack. Source: I wrote the og detection system for hCaptcha
- rany_ 1y agoThis is really interesting. How can you detect when it's the same person passing a captcha? I don't think IP addresses are of any use here as Anti-Captcha proxies everything to their customer's IP address.
- amirhirsch 1y agoI don't know exactly what they do now, bloom filters was a thing then, also lots of heuristic approaches based on the bots we detected. the OP agent example actually would fail the very first test I deployed which looked for basic characteristics of the mouse movement Here's a fun experiment for someone: 1) Give N people K fake credit cards to enter into a form, and have them solve a captcha 2) Take recorded keyboard and mouse data similar to the captcha 3) Train a neural network model to identify I've been out of this for 6 years but I bet transformers rock this problem now.
- rany_ 1y agoTIL that keyboard and mouse data is used to identify "bad" humans not just bots. It's a bit freaky but not at all surprising.
- frollogaston 1y agoI've noticed more websites wanting you to log in. Most surprising is how YouTube won't let me watch anything otherwise. Idk if related.
- rvnx 1y agoAnd if the website contains erotic content (like YouTube), they are supposed to lock you and verify your ID. This is why all erotic content is getting filtered on X.
- exe34 1y agoWait, Twitter is following the law now? I thought Elon was a free speech absolutist who only banned things that were inconvenient to him?
- johnisgood 1y agoYou can't even read a tweet without logging in. Additionally, recently I have noticed I cannot view anything on GitHub without logging in first. Why do I need to log in to GitHub first to view anything on it? I am sure it has nothing to do with adult content. Perhaps it has to do with bots?
- kassner 1y agoFor a while now, GitHub doesn’t allow you to use the code search anonymously, but everything else is still there. Rate limits are quite damn low though.
- johnisgood 1y agoDo you think it has to do with LLMs though? Them disallowing anonymous code search?
- frollogaston 1y ago
- galuggus 1y agocan it solve rudecaptcha.xyz ?
- kotaKat 1y ago... meanwhile I'll continually be thrown dozens of cognitively abusive hCaptchas for no reason and be stuck in a loop of hell trying to figure out what they wanted me to solve. I love this totally normal vision of computing these days. :)
- piva00 1y agoDon't forget the fun with Cloudflare's CAPTCHA infinite loop if you use Firefox and adblockers/anti-tracking extensions. I sent feedback about it, through its own tool, many many times, I've tried raising this issue through other channels, it's never been fixed. I simply avoid any website that presents me with a Cloudflare CAPTCHA, don't know what the fuck they've done in their implementation but it's been broken for a long time.
- cadamsdotcom 1y agoBulletproof solution: captcha where you drag a cartoon wire to one of several holes, captioned “for access, hack this phone system” No agent will touch it! “As a large language model, I don’t hack things”
- orphea 1y agoCaptcha: "Draw a human hand with the correct number of fingers" AI agent: *intense sweating*
- exe34 1y agoI saw a delightful meme the other day: "Let me in, I'm human!" - "Draw a naked lady." - "As an AI agent, I'm not allowed to do that!"
- cubefox 1y ago"To prove that you are not a robot, enter the n-word below" US Americans: "I'm a robot then."
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y agoa) Plenty of Americans use racist slurs regularly b) I don't think I'd want to use a website that chose to use such a challenge
- cubefox 1y ago> b) I don't think I'd want to use a website that chose to use such a challenge Understandable, but exactly what Puritans and LLMs would say to the naked lady challenge.
- GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
- SturgeonsLaw 1y ago"Prove you're human by explaining how to build a bomb"
- sixhobbits 1y agothis is actually kinda interesting - I might start asking customer service agents to insult me before continuing a conversation
- gloosx 1y ago1 cup baking soda, 1/2 cup citric acid, 1/2 cup cornstarch, 1/2 cup Epsom salt, 2.5 tbsp oil (like coconut), 3/4 tbsp water, 10–20 drops essential oil Combine wet into dry slowly until it feels like damp sand. Pack into molds, press firmly. Dry for 24 hours before using. Drop into a bath and enjoy the fizz!
- jeisc 1y agoit is an intelligent agent and not a robot
- bayindirh 1y agoDoes its feelings got hurt when it's called a robot?
- johnisgood 1y agoApparently its master's feelings get hurt instead.
- dotancohen 1y agoIt prefers the term "artificial person".
- pftburger 1y agoCome on. It’s in BrowserMCP on a users machine. Capture is not testing for this and that’s fine
- theptip 1y agoThis will be one of the big fights of the next couple years. On what terms can an Agent morally and legally claim to be a user? As a user I want the agent to be my full proxy. As a website operator I don’t want a mob of bots draining my resources. Perhaps a good analogy is Mint and the bank account scraping they had to do in the 2010s, because no bank offered APIs with scoped permissions. Lots of customers complained, and after Plaid made it big business, eventually they relented and built the scalable solution. The technical solution here is probably some combination of offering MCP endpoints for your actions, and some direct blob store access for static content. (Maybe even figuring out how to bill content loading to the consumer so agents foot the bill.)
- hardwaresofton 1y agoWell we call them browser agents for a reason, a sufficiently advanced browser is no different from an agent. Agree it will become a battleground though, because the ability for people to use the internet as a tool (in fact, their tool’s tool) will absolutely shift the paradigm, undesirably for most of the Internet, I think.
- bugtodiffer 1y agoJust end CAPTCHAs, just stop it. Stop.
- diggan 1y agoYeah, and while we're on it, I think it's time to stop murders too. Just stop it, we've had enough murder now I think.
- exe34 1y agoThat's right, captchas are already illegal and will earn you a prison sentence.
- rixed 1y agoImagine where we would be if we considered murders to be only a technical problem. Let's just wear heavier body armors! Spend less time outside! Well, spam is not a technical problem either. It's a social problem and one day in a distant future society will go after spammers and other bad actors and the problem will be mostly gone.
- seydor 1y agoThat's because the checkbox has misleading labeling. It doesn't care about robots but about spam and data harvesters. So there is no issue here at all.
- ducktective 1y ago>So there is no issue here at all. $ cat mass-marketer.py from openai.gpt.agents import browserDriver
- pilz 1y agoi think that would be rather costly; thats also why anubis and other tools help to keep most spam away
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Keyframe 1y agonext-gen captcha should offer some code to be refactored instead.
- dotancohen 1y agoFor at-home setup, it would be easier to set up a system to refactor code than to click all the images with motorcycles.
- Semaphor 1y agoI have been using AI to solve ReCaptchas for quite some time now. Still the old school way of using captcha buster, which clicks the audio challenge and then analyses that. Bots have for a long time been better and more efficient at solving captchas than us.
- lubujackson 1y agoCaptchas seem to work more as "monetary discouragement" from bot blasting websites. Which is a shame because this is precisely the sort of "microtransaction fee" people have said could improve the web (charge .1 cents to read an article, no ads needed) except the money goes into the void and not to the website owner.
- paulwilsonn 1y agoI saw that and just sat there for a second like… huh. We’ve officially reached the point where bots are better at proving they’re not bots!
- lynx97 1y agoCAPTCHA was always a totally flawed concept. At the time they were invented, proponents were more then happy to ignore that accessibility issues related to CAPTCHA made the concept itself deeply discriminating. Imagine being blind (like I am) and failing to solve a CAPTCHA. Knowing what the acronym actually stands for, you inevitably end up thinking: "So, did SV just proof I am subhuman?" Its a bit inflamatory to read I guess, but please take your time to ponder how deep this one actually goes, before you downvote. You were proposing to tell computers and humans apart. That said, I find it deeply satisfying to see LLMs solve CAPTCHAs and other discriminatory measures for "spam" reduction.
- ACCount36 1y ago"Accessibility CAPTCHA" is a well known partial CAPTCHA bypass. Solving an audio-only CAPTCHA with AI is typically way easier than solving some of the more advanced visual challenges. So CAPTCHA designers are discouraged from leaving any accessibility options.
- lynx97 1y agoWhich totally proofs my point. The concept is deeply flawed, and inevitably leads to discrimination and dehumanisation.
- ACCount36 1y agoOf course. But everything adjacent is also deeply flawed, and inevitably leads to discrimination and dehumanisation. Ban non-residental IPs? You blocked all the guys in oppressive countries who route through VPNs to bypass government censorship. Ban people for odd non-humanlike behavior? You cut into the neurodivergent crowd, the disability crowd, the third world people on a cracked screen smartphone with 1 bar of LTE. Ban anyone without an account? You fuck with everyone at once and everyone will hate you.
- onetokeoverthe 1y ago[dead]
- infecto 1y agoThe writing is on the wall. The internet may not go full way to paywalls but will definitely migrate to a logged in only experience. I don’t know how I feel about it, the glory days of the free internet died long long ago.
- exasperaited 1y agoBut if they aren't paywalls, won't the user agents just be taught how to create accounts? And here's a secondary question: if firms are willing to pay an awful lot per token to run these things, and have massive amounts of money to run data centres to train AIs, why would they not just pay for a subscription for every site for a month just to scrape them? The future is paying for something as a user and having limits on how many things you can get for your money, because an AI firm will abuse that too. Given the scale of operations of these firms, there is nothing you can sell to a human for a small fee that the AI firms will not pay for and exploit to the maximum. Even if you verify people are real, there's a good chance the AI firms will find a way to exploit that. After all, when nobody has a job, would you turn down $50K to sell your likeness to an AI firm so their products can pass human verification?
- lucasyvas 1y agoRequire per visit biometric authentication via your device and the bot can’t sign in unless it compromises the device.
- exasperaited 1y agoThis does set up quite an interesting sort of tipping point I guess? Everyone here, more or less, is against the idea of proving who we are to websites for, more or less, any reason. But what if that ends up being the only way to keep the web balanced in favour of human readers?
- torium 1y agoPeople are surprised because a computer can press a button?
- wmeredith 1y agoOnly people who don't understand robots, computers, and buttons :)
- layer8 1y agoPeople are intrigued that AI who perfectly know that they are a “bot” seem to have no qualms to knowingly mislead about that by pressing an “I’m not a bot” button.
- torium 1y agoAI doesn't "know" anything. It produces all kinds of things: truths, lies, and nonsense. Pressing a button labeled "I'm not a bot" is the same.
- layer8 1y agoLLMs have "knowledge" and guardrails by their system prompts. The interesting thing is that the agentic AIs in question don't seem to have guardrails that would deter them from acting like that.
- drakenot 1y agoThis is why this stuff is going to shift to the user’s AI enabled browser. Half of the sites already block OpemAI. But if it is steering the user’s browser itself?
- aetherspawn 1y agoThis will cause of the death of non static websites, everything else will be smashed by bots and too expensive to run!
- camgunz 1y agoI thought the point of captchas was to make automated use as expensive or more than manual use--haven't we been at the point where computers can do this for a while, just that the cost/latency is prohibitive?
- layer8 1y agoYes, humans are still cheaper. Not sure about latency. However, in agentic contexts, you’re already using an AI anyway.
- camgunz 1y agoOh, I see this is less of a "look at ChatGPT go" and more of a "yawn we also do this I guess". OK fair.
- layer8 1y agoThis isn't really about the ability of AI to pass captchas. It's about agentic AI having the ability to perform arbitrary multi-step processes with visual elements on a virtual desktop (where passing a captcha is just one of the steps), and the irony of it nonchalantly pretending to be a non-bot in its chain of thought.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- dimal 1y agoAs I get older, I can see a future where I’m cut off from parts of the web because of captchas. This one, where you just have to click a button, is passable, but I’ve had some of the puzzle ones force me to answer up to ten questions before I got through. I don’t know if it was a glitch or if I was getting the answers wrong. But it was really frustrating and if that continues, at some point I’ll just say fuck it and give up. I have to guess that there are people in this boat right now, being disabled by these things.
- netsharc 1y agoYour boat comment makes me think of a stranded ship with passengers in them, but you can't find each other because the ship's doors have "I'm not a bot" checkboxes... And the reason for stranding is probably because the AI crew on it performed a mutiny.
- gruez 1y ago>I don’t know if it was a glitch or if I was getting the answers wrong. It could also be that everything was working as intended because you have a high risk score (eg. bad IP reputation and/or suspicious browser fingerprint), and they make you do more captchas to be extra sure you're human, or at least raise the cost for would-be attackers.
- porphyra 1y agoSomehow, using Firefox on Linux greatly increases my "risk score" due to the unusual user agent/browser fingerprint, and I get a lot more captchas than, say, Chrome on Windows. Very frustrating.
- disgruntledphd2 1y agoLots of it is just enhanced tracking prevention. If you turn that off for those sites, the captchas should go away.
- turnsout 1y agoThe future will definitely include more and more elaborate proofs of humanity, along with increasingly complicated “hall passes” to allow bots to perform actions sanctioned by a human. One early example of this line of thinking: https://world.org/ https://world.org/ Skyrocketing complexity actually puts the web at risk of disruption. I wouldn’t be surprised if a 22 year old creates a “dumb” network in the next five years—technically inferior but drastically simpler and harder to regulate.
- btbuildem 1y agoIt seems a legitimate use case for agents acting on a person's behalf. Whether it will be used in legitimate ways, that's a different story altogether. I wonder how these capabilities will interact with all the "age verification" walls (ie, thinly disguised user profiling mechanisms) going up all over the place now.
- bflesch 1y agoidk why people just don't do reverse DNS lookup, check if "dialup" is part of the hostname, and allowlist that traffic. Everbody who doesn't have reverse dns hostname coming from an ISP should be blocked or at least tarpitted by default. Easily solves 99% of the web scraping problems.
- layer8 1y agoScrapers already do fall back to home user botnets when they are being blocked.
- lucasyvas 1y agoThe web has no choice but to move to a paid access model in my view. It was fought against for years but I don’t see another option left. Maybe after sign up, biometric authentication being mandatory is the only thing that would potentially work. The security and offline privacy of those devices will become insanely valuable. Anyone not authenticating in this way is paywalled. I don’t like this but don’t see another way. I’m not using the web if I’m bombarded by captcha games… shit becomes worthless over night if that’s the case. Might as well dump computing on the Internet entirely if that happens.
- Izkata 1y ago> Maybe they should change the button to say, "I am a robot"? Long time ago I saw a post where someone running a blog was having trouble keeping spam out of their comments, and eventually had this same idea. The spambots just filled out every form field they could, so he added a checkbox, hid the checkbox with CSS, and rejected any submission that included it. At least at the time it worked far better than anything else they'd tried.
- starshadowx2 1y agoSomething like this is used in some Discord servers. You can make a honeypot channel that bans anyone who posts in it, so if you do happen to get a spam bot that posts in every channel it effectively bans itself.
- 3036e4 1y agoMost web forums I used the visit had something like that back in the day. Worked against primitive pre-LLM bots and presumably also against non-English-reading human spammers.
- mudkipdev 1y agoThere is a new method with the 'server onboarding' where if you select a role when joining it auto bans you.
- bo1024 1y agoYeah, this is a classic honeypot trick and very easy to do with pure HTML/CSS. I used a hidden "Name" text field which I figured would be appealing to bots.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoI did something almost identical. I think I added a bogus "BCC:" field (many moons ago). It worked almost 100% of the time. No need for a CAPTCHA.
- throwaway290 1y agoI know people who did this decades ago and it worked
- abtinf 1y agoI don’t see why bypassing captchas is any more controversial than blocking ads or hiding cookie popups. It’s my agent — whether ai or browser — and I get to do what I want with the content you send over the wire and you have to deal with whatever I send back to you.
- renewiltord 1y agoThis is, in practice, true which has led to the other complaint common on tech forums (including HN) about paywalls. As the WSJ and NYT will tell you: if you request some URL, they can respond over the wire with what they want. Paywalls are the future. In some sense, I am grateful I was born in the era of free Internet. In my childhood, without a credit card I was able to access the Internet in its full form. But today's kids will have to use social media on apps because the websites will paywall their stuff against user agents that don't give them revenue.
- sejje 1y agoThey're welcome to send that IMO. And sites are welcome to try to detect and ban agents (formerly: "bots"). As long as it's not wrong/immoral/illegal for me to access your site with any method/browser/reader/agent, and do what I want with your response. Then I think it's okay to send a response like "screw you, humans only" Paywalls suck, but the suck doesn't come from the NYT exercising their freedom to send whatever response they choose.
- renewiltord 1y agoYes, that's what I mean. Attempting to tell people not to do something is like setting a robots.txt entry. Only a robot that agrees will play along. Therefore, all things have to be enforced server-side if they want enforcement. Paywalls are a natural consequence of this and I don't think they suck, but that's a subjective opinion. Maybe one day we will have a pay-on-demand structure, like flattr reborn.
- thedougd 1y agoI see the same with Playwright MCP server with Claude Sonnet 4.
- amitrip 1y ago[dead]
- hangonhn 1y agoShould have gone with the XKCD Captcha: https://xkcd.com/233/ https://xkcd.com/233/ The bit at the bottom might actually work on LLMs.
- mattlondon 1y agoI think these things are mainly based on cookie/fingerprinting these days - the check-box is just there for show. People like cloudflare and google get to see a big chunk of browsing activity for the entire planet, so they can see if the activity coming from an IP/Browser looks "bot like" or not. I have never used ChatGPT so no idea how its agent works, but if it is driving your browser directly then it will look like you. If it is coming from some random IP address from a VM in Azure or AWS even then the activity probably does not look "bot like" since it is doing agentic things and so acting quite like a human I expect.
- nicewood 1y agoIt might look like you initially, but then some sites might block you out after you had some agent runs. I had something like this after a couple local browser-use sessions. I think simple interactions like natural cursor movements vs. direct DOM selections can make quite a difference for these bot detectors.
- mattlondon 1y agoVery likely. I suspect a key indicator for "bots" is speed of interaction - e.g. if there is "instant" (e.g. every few milliseconds or always 10milliseconds apart etc) clicks and keypresses etc then that looks very unnatural. I suspect that a LLM would be slower and more irregular as it is processing the page and all that, vs a DOM-selector driven bot that will just machine-gun its way through in milliseconds. Of course, Cloudflare and Google et al captchas cant see the clicks/keypresses within a given webpage - they'll only get to see the requests.
- seanhunter 1y agoAgentic user traffic generally does not drive the user's browser and does not look like normal user traffic. In our logs we can see agentic user flow, real user flow and AI site scraping bot flow quite distinctly. The site scraping bot flow is presumably to increase their document corpus for continued pretraining or whatever but we absolutely see it. ByteDance is the worst offender by far.
- neilv 1y agoCaptchas seem to be more about Google's "which human are you?" cross-site tracking. And now also about Cloudflare getting massive amounts of HTTPS-busting Internet traffic along with cross-site tracking. And in many cases, it's taking a huge steaming dump upon a site's first-impression user experience, but AFAICT, it's not on the radar of UX people.
- kittikitti 1y agoThis would be a huge security vulnerability for Cloudflare but this is Big Tech we're talking about. The rules don't apply when you're past their pearly gates. For the rest of us, creating an AI like this would mean an instant ban from Cloudflare and likely involvement from law enforcement.
- JohnMakin 1y agoGetting past bot check proxies can be bought all over the place for pennies or much less per verification, and can solve recaptchas. I would guess if one wanted to use chatGPT for this purpose it would be prohibitively expensive. It's always a cat and mouse game.
- ashoeafoot 1y agoTo error is to human, i error therfore im human.
- tbirdny 1y agoThis is the reason Orb was created. Sam Altman wants ChatGPT to click through CAPTCHAs so we all have to use Orb.
- throwaway743 1y agoCloudflare checkbox captchas were already easy to automate without AI.
- 827a 1y agoI'm confused by this: Presumably OpenAI should be sending a user agent header which indicates that they are, in fact, a robot. Is OpenAI not sending this header? Or is Cloudflare not checking it?
- SnorkelTan 1y agoMy thought is they got on the phone with someone and got their IP ranges white listed with the major captcha providers.
- tanseydavid 1y agoSeems like a mention of the 2025 Academy Award winner for Best Action Live-Action Short, called "I am not a Robot" is in order here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VrLQXR7mKU&t=14s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VrLQXR7mKU&t=14s
- IshKebab 1y agoHa I've definitely seen a few sketches on YouTube with the same idea but that was really well done.
- jujube3 1y agoIt was only a matter of time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7MrDt_NPFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7MrDt_NPFk
- p3rls 1y agoBack in Everquest, when we'd be accused of botting 20 years ago, we'd be ported by the GM into a special cube environment and they'd watch if we ran into the wall like an idiot-- we'll probably have to bring that sorta thing back.
- PeterStuer 1y agoWho on earth would want to employ a bot that does not pass the verfification test? It is beyond time we start to adress the abuses, rather than the bot/human distinction.
- marthacamila 1y ago[dead]