15 ms·

Menstrual tracking app data is gold mine for advertisers that risks women safety

351 points by _p2zi 1y ago

_p2zi 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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olalonde 1y ago
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- metrix 1y ago
  Can you explain?
  - calcifer 1y ago
    Historically, "safety" referred to protection from physical harm. It has now expanded into psychological, emotional, economical realms. This had the (very much intended) effect of redefining "unsafe" from imminent and persistent threat to anything that makes me uncomfortable.
    - nemomarx 1y ago
      Not sure how that's super relevant here? "my data could be used to accuse me of a crime" is a threat of physical harm anyway, unless you define being arrested as safe. And I don't really think public opinion has shifted on that part. You could argue about emotional comfort or something, maybe.
      - cwmoore 1y ago
        Being arrested by a “public safety officer” is not safe at all.
        antifa 1y ago
        You could probably find 10 separate videos of "public safety officers" assaulting innocent people by shooting them with rubber bullets for no discernible reason or by trampling them with horses (also for no discernible reason), and that's only from the last 2 days.
        cwmoore 1y ago
        Ok, antifa, but there are over 10 million arrests in the US every year. Video is not in the same league of societal influence.
    - JohnBooty 1y ago
      In America, in many states, you can be imprisoned for having an abortion. Sharing your menstrual data and therefore having it available for subpoena is quite literally a physical safety risk. If you don't understand, or disagree that the word "safety" is entirely appropriate here, can you talk about why?
      - calcifer 1y ago
        > If you don't understand, or disagree I understand, and I do agree. I simply answered the GPs question.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      Really? Intentional infliction of emotional distress goes back to the late 1800s
  - gosub100 1y ago
    When your ideologies don't stand on their own merit, one last resort is to redefine words (and hope nobody notices) in order to force people to believe what you say.
- footy 1y ago
  perhaps it has, but considering what American women in particular are risking if their menstrual data is leaked this doesn't seem like an example of said loss of meaning
  - olalonde 1y ago
    What specific safety risks could an American woman face if her menstrual data were leaked?
    - nemomarx 1y ago
      If your period stops long enough to suggest a pregnancy, and then resumes without giving birth on record, that's enough evidence that you might have terminated the pregnancy. This can be correlated with travel records to find that you used a clinic out of state, which is a crime in some jurisdictions.
      - olalonde 1y ago
        I find it hard to believe this would qualify as "enough evidence" in any court of law. A straightforward defense could be that you simply stopped tracking for unrelated reasons. Also, are there really criminal penalties for receiving an abortion? From what I’ve read, the criminal penalties are reserved for those who perform or facilitate them.
        footy 1y ago
        you don't even need to actually seek an abortion, and it's been going on for years. There are many reports, e.g. in the BBC[1], this personal story on CNN [2], this woman who had a miscarriage while using drugs and got four years [3], this PBS article about how the risk of miscarriage being criminalized is increasing [4]... etc. As a person outside the United States, America appears to me like a very dangerous place to be pregnant in, and what's even wilder is that people (men?) appear largely unaware of it. Regardless of whether you think it's right to convict an addict for a miscarriage or to convict a woman for seeking an abortion or for having a spontaneous one, these are all examples of the environment in which having menstrual data fall into the wrong hands could bring about significant harm. Your proposed defence reads wildly naive and woefully inadequate to me given all this. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 [2] https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/23/health/south-carolina-abortion-kff-health-news-partner https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/23/health/south-carolina-abortio... [3] https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/577876-oklahoma-woman-convicted-of-manslaughter-get-4-years-after/ https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/577876-okl... [4] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-criminal-charges-for-women-who-experience-a-miscarriage https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-cri...
- dinkblam 1y ago
  also in the 70s people would not even have "noticed" covid. back then people could not even be bothered to use seatbelts or stop chainsmoking (even in airplanes). what is considered "acceptable risk" has completely changed in the past few decades.
  - gosub100 1y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnaires%27_disease_outbreak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnair... 1976 new illness appeared, CDC did a full investigation, identified the cause.
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    In 1976 there was the H1N1 outbreak which only caused 1 death and 13 hospitalizations but lead to a massive vaccination campaign for tens of millions of Americas, so yeah, they would have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak
  - brookst 1y ago
    There were 3 million excess deaths in the US alone from Covid, even with drastic efforts to reduce. I assure you, it would have been noticed in the 1970’s the same way the 1918 influenza pandemic was.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    That’s also because they had much healthier weights and were on average a decade younger.
  - ejolto 1y ago
    The 1968 "Hong Kong flu" had a similar case fatality rate and they certainly noticed that.
- colanderman 1y ago
  Maybe you are completely unaware, but many US states have criminalized abortion. Pregnancies and abortions are detectable from menstrual data.
  - mapotofu 1y ago
    With this in mind, why do the users trust these companies in supplying that data? I’m asking this is earnest.
    - colanderman 1y ago
      Most abortions do not result from planned pregnancies. It's not a problem until it suddenly is.
      - brookst 1y ago
        Miscarriages are also being criminalized in the US.
        mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Which section code?
        RajT88 1y ago
        Miscarriages are spontaneous abortions. The anti-abortion laws are being used against women who have miscarriages.
        mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Miscarriages are not spontaneous abortions to those in the medical field. Sorry if the terms are confusing though.
        1y ago
- hobs 1y ago
  We're at a point in America where braindead corpses have to be forced to bring a baby to term https://www.today.com/health/womens-health/brain-dead-mom-forced-life-support-pregnancy-rcna206994 https://www.today.com/health/womens-health/brain-dead-mom-fo... So no, and take some time for self reflection.
- Supercompressor 1y ago
  Safety and privacy are so closely linked for this usage to be feasible, especially with how available and identifiable anonymised data can be.
- deleted 1y ago
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sandra_vu 1y ago
I have been thinking about building a privacy-first tracking app for years now.
- NoTranslationL 1y ago
  I make one! It’s called Reflect. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id6463800032 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id64638...
  - OJFord 1y ago
    Seems too nerdy for the market at large - the correlation etc. features might well be as good as or better than what the likes of Flo provide, but people will have a harder time understanding that than simply 'your next date is expected to be x', 'your cycle is typically x days', etc.
    - NoTranslationL 1y ago
      We definitely cater to a niche that wants to know the nitty gritty details. We’re trying to layer the app such that you get the TLDR first if you want, and can zoom into the details of why second
- sigmoid10 1y ago
  The problem is that stuff like privacy and open source don't attract the vast sums of venture capital that ad-selling businesses do. Sure, an average dev could probably build a working app like that - but could you ship the same quality as someone who can afford to hire an entire UX team?
  - guappa 1y ago
    Probably… it would not make you sit through 30 seconds of ads so that would be a great UX improvement.
  - asgerhb 1y ago
like_any_other 1y ago
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- bgwalter 1y ago
  Also the same NHS that gave Palantir a contract: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/patient-privacy-fears-us-spy-tech-firm-palantir-wins-nhs-contract https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/patient-priv...
- deleted 1y ago
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2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
Planned Parenthood makes one https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spotontracker https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spotontrac...
- tempaccountabcd 1y ago
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NoTranslationL 1y ago
If anyone is interested in a privacy focused tracking app that stores all your data locally, I make an app called Reflect [0] whose sole purpose is this, plus on-device analysis. We’re working on a menstrual tracking feature right now and it’s pretty far along. We’ve just released an anomaly detection feature as well. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id6463800032 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id64638...
- oulipo 1y ago
  I guess using FHE like from https://zama.ai https://zama.ai you could provide server-side features without compromising privacy
- rtkwe 1y ago
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  - NoTranslationL 1y ago
    I can understand that. We are also working on an encryption feature that doesn’t use the default encryption primitives so people can have custody over their own keys and feel better about their data security at rest
    - dylan604 1y ago
      Is that better than using the secure enclave type of default? Not everyone is an HN reader that would even know what a personal/private key pair is let alone how to properly/securely handle them.
      - NoTranslationL 1y ago
        As with most advanced features in Reflect, we’ll expose a low friction version to those who don’t want the control, but also the option for more control in the form of key management if they wish
  - 1y ago
clvx 1y ago
If there’s something I’m looking forward with end to end vibe coding tools like Github Spark, Lovable and others is getting rid of these suckers. It would be easier to provide similar functionalities and customize them without major issues. Yes, it’s still not seamless enough for your average user but it’s heading in the right direction.
voidUpdate 1y ago
> arguing that apps must provide clear consent options rather than all-or-nothing data collection What's wrong with "nothing"? Other than the companies not being able to squeeze a few more dollars out of selling user data, of course
- chii 1y ago
  the 'nothing' doesn't mean no data sent - it means you don't get access to the app's features if you don't consent to the data collection.
- deleted 1y ago
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bootsmann 1y ago
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josefritzishere 1y ago
It is painfully evident sometimes that America desperatelyl needs a GDPR-like federal law. The state-by-state laws are by nature peicemeal and it makes for a wild west of outright PII abuse.
- yatopifo 1y ago
  Even if you could create such a law, at this point in time, no law can protect americans agains persecution by government-affiliated groups who are immune from court scrutiny thanks to their protections at the very top. You would first have to send corrupt SC justices to prison, impeach Trump and prosecute all his henchmen. Forgive me, but i doubt this is going to happen now that the US is officially a dictatorship. There is no point in laws if you have no independent courts and almost no one is willing to stand up for democratic principles.
  - glowiefedposter 1y ago
    [dead]
  - techjamie 1y ago
    Tracking the populace is a bipartisan goal, not just a Republican one. Democrats support some good measures like Net Neutrality, but they're also getting behind the "protect the children" surveillance laws just like the Rs. Even when they're in power, the best we get is department chiefs like Lisa Khan doing good work that the next administration reverts. But on the lawmaking end, they're still pretty complicit.
hello_computer 1y ago
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- dang 1y ago
  Wtf? We've banned this account.
  - hello_computer 1y ago
    [dead]
amarcheschi 1y ago
at this point it is already pretty known but mozilla read the tos of some of the most used period apps and analyzed it https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/period-ovulation-trackers/ https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/cate...
JohnBooty 1y ago
For those wondering why this is a safety issue, in many American states abortion or "fetal harm" is considered murder. You can be imprisoned, theoretically for life. This is of course a rapidly evolving area of law since the fall of Roe v. Wade. Having one's menstrual data available for subpoena is therefore quite a literal safety risk. "At least 38 states authorize homicide charges for causing pregnancy loss" https://www.law.cuny.edu/academics/clinical-programs/hrgj/projects/report-u-s-criminalization-of-abortion-and-pregnancy-outcomes/ https://www.law.cuny.edu/academics/clinical-programs/hrgj/pr...
- deleted 1y ago
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- nlitened 1y ago
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  - scblock 1y ago
    Then you haven't tried looking. Women are being arrested and even convicted for having miscarriages, including in the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/georgia-arrest-miscarriage-fetal-personhood-rcna199400 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/georgia-arrest-miscarri... https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/01/conservative-dream-come-true-woman-sentenced-to-30-years-behind-bars-for-having-a-miscarriage/ https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/01/conservative-dream-com... https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/06/health/miscarriage-criminal-charges https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/06/health/miscarriage-criminal-c... https://www.themarshallproject.org/2025/04/02/law-pregnancy-california-ohio-georgia-alabama https://www.themarshallproject.org/2025/04/02/law-pregnancy-... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-criminal-charges-for-women-who-experience-a-miscarriage https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-cri...
    - nlitened 1y ago
      Every single of the six links you provided are about miscarriages and not abortions. Either I don’t understand something medical (not a doctor), or you’re mixing things to derail a conversation (dishonestly or unintentionally). Whether those miscarriages were natural or a result of human malice, is an absolutely separate discussion. How does all that prove an original point that an abortion can get a woman to prison?
bArray 1y ago
Combine this with the Meta Pixel illegal localhost tracking that bypasses privacy measures [1] [2] and the privacy leaking could be off the scale. I think this goes for all things - medical data such as heart rate, blood sugar, steps, weight, VO2 max, etc, could all be seriously misused. Personally I try to use apps that are not cloud-based, or make my own, but this isn't an option for everybody. [1] https://www.zeropartydata.es/p/localhost-tracking-explained-it-could https://www.zeropartydata.es/p/localhost-tracking-explained-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467
- deleted 1y ago
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- input_sh 1y ago
  You don't need a Meta pixel if the app simply... shares the data with Facebook, as Flo was caught doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flo_(app)#Privacy_and_security_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flo_(app)#Privacy_and_security...
ubermonkey 1y ago
In the current climate, no one should use a menstrual tracking app of any kind, even those with on-device-only data. Asking normal people to figure out the risk profile of that data, and to evaluate the trustworthiness of a given app, is just too much. Use a paper calendar.
- testing22321 1y ago
  Even people in Canada? New Zealand? Many billions of people live completely free of this concern.
  - ubermonkey 1y ago
    Do they, though? Illiberal ideas can take root anywhere. Yes, the concern is primarily for those in countries actively backsliding on liberties, but...
- 1970-01-01 1y ago
  The risk profile of paper seems to be equal to the risk profile of on-device-only? How do they differ? Something you have v. something you have
  - XorNot 1y ago
    Paper is easier to destroy quickly, and to also plausibly lose or deny having. This is actually one of the biggest problems I've found with Yubikeys: they're both too fragile yet also hard to reliably, deliberately destroy quickly.
    - 1970-01-01 1y ago
      I really don't agree. If I take a photo on my phone, it can be deleted in less than a millisecond. Shredding a paper calendar takes at least 30 seconds. I don't see denial of ownership as a legitimate strategy to data confidentiality.
      - 1y ago
bell-cot 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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frakt0x90 1y ago
As usual, we need laws preventing gross (in every sense) invasions of privacy. Building new apps that aren't evil still allows the evil ones to exist. Targeted advertising as a whole should be eradicated.
- deleted 1y ago
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- 28304283409234 1y ago
  Truly - how is this not data theft?
  - thmsths 1y ago
    Because you "technically" agreed to it in the 5000 words long terms and conditions, you also agreed to the clause that says they can change at anytime.
    - makapuf 1y ago
      Maybe limit the contract that a person (who is not a professional in the subject of the contract) can sign to 200 words. Anything past the 200th word doesn't exist even if you sign it.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Laws don't seem to work when it comes to Meta, Google, et. al. They just do what they want anyway.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
They don't need apps to do this. I sat in a meeting with a data broker in 1998 where one of their managers was chuffed that they could determine menstrual cycles by analyzing purchasing records. And it wasn't hygiene products. Various foods and other spending patterns pop out after a 28-day correlation over groups of women that are artificially "synced" into cohort groups. This invasiveness will continue so long as there are no consumer data protection laws.
- beAbU 1y ago
  Joke's on them, my wife likes ice cream every day.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    does she eat more ice-cream during menstruation or pregnancy? does she change flavors? there may be patterns that you are not aware of. only a steady ice-cream subscription would be able to hide that.
  - msdrider 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - creaturemachine 1y ago
      We see where you're going with that, and you really shouldn't. Besides, some men are really into it.
- deleted 1y ago
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- giantg2 1y ago
  This is interesting though. How would these sorts of correlation be protected against? We already know that anonymous health data can be traced back. Gather enough data in any domain, and you can pinpoint someone.
- deleted 1y ago
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plastic_bag 1y ago
There's a FOSS alternative called Drip. https://dripapp.org/ https://dripapp.org/ It is funded by Mozilla and Open Knowledge Foundation. Available on iOS and Android.
- azalemeth 1y ago
  Mensinator is also another FOSS that uses no third party sdks and is reproducibly built for android, fairly actively used, and made by women. https://github.com/EmmaTellblom/Mensinator https://github.com/EmmaTellblom/Mensinator
  - carstenhag 1y ago
    As I had failed finding an app that was not ad-ridden or oldish, my girlfriend and I are using this (I am copying her values, to know when her period will be). Also contributing some code :)
    - radicalbyte 1y ago
      Can I ask why you use it? We used test strips - they're really cheap and way more accurate as women's bodies aren't clocks. That was effective for getting pregnant. Using anything except some kind of active measures to avoid pregnancy doesn't pass my engineer brain and certainly doesn't pass my wife's Pharmacologist brain (i.e. she actually knows what she's talking about whereas I'm using applied probability theory with assumptions).
      - konfusinomicon 1y ago
        this article got me wondering where the partner app, potentially named drop?, that warns drip user's partners to be more careful in their choice of words, or lack thereof, during that special time where domestic emotions often devolve in to an irrational mess ending with a few days of sleeping on the couch until the drip has subsided
        1y ago
tiahura 1y ago
The article doesn't explain how their safety is at risk.
- msdrider 1y ago
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  - AnEro 1y ago
    So we aren't seeing any risk in anyone being able to have one's medical data if the other party has the money for it? Especially when some of that medical care is being banned in regions this data isn't treated legally like medical data and have bounties on people reporting on that healthcare received else where? Instead, the conclusion is just western women are accountability dodging sheeple that are just being coddled?
- gopher_space 1y ago
  Women do not have legal autonomy over their bodies in the US, and health data especially dealing with reproductive matters has been used to target individuals.
- deleted 1y ago
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giantg2 1y ago
Did I miss the part where the data risks women's safety? I was particularly interested in that part of the headline, but I didn't see it detailed in the article.
- jedimastert 1y ago
  Third paragraph: > The report’s authors caution that cycle tracking app (CTA) data in the wrong hands could result in risks to job prospects, workplace monitoring, health insurance discrimination and cyberstalking – and limit access to abortion. Did you miss it or are you disagreeing with these being a threat?
  - mrweasel 1y ago
    Or violence or even death. Certain cultures don't take to kindly to pregnancies outside marriage, or maybe the family disagree with the choice of partner. A cousin works for the app company, leaks the information about an unexpected pregnancy to a conservative father or uncle. Girls is shipped of to family back home and is tragically stabbed to death a few days after arriving. Most people who collect data of this type of data lacks imagination if they don't think it can be misused.
    - jedimastert 1y ago
      More likely they believe that because they only collect the information they aren't culpable for what other people do with it.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Good point about family violence threats. That wasn't in the article, but makes sense.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    The cyberstalking is the most applicable, but I dont see what the menstral data would provide vs not having the mentstral data. A name and address could present a potential threat, but knowing which days someone is bleeding one doesn't seem to be useful in attacking someone unless you believe it makes them a weaker target or something. The others aren't about safety. The one about restricting abortion is a false attribution as the laws would be the thing actually restricting it, not the use of the app. I'm not saying the problems shouldn't be addressed, but claiming safety is at risk is a bit of a stretch.
rustcleaner 1y ago
Probably the best one-liner fix in law I can think of, is to make it a imprisonable felony to give money to someone or an organization for the purpose of speaking a particular message as their own, and accepting money in exchange for speaking a message as your own. Basically ban advertising, or at least make each commercial basically say "General Motors has paid us to tell you that ... ... ..." instead of the sexy seductive style we have today. Ads, if they are to exist at all, should be limited to factual/quantitative statements about performance and reliability, and must not use any suggestive/qualitative statements. We need to make the various pillars of modern advertising criminal offenses: the main one is the use of psychological/memetic trickery to spread and make memorable a message for commercial purposes, then there's the financial incentive to shit up our cyberspaces with sponsored messages. The only place I should EVER EVER EEEVERRR find an advertisement for (say) a plumber, should be in the local directory for businesses under the plumbing section, and the list must be sortable and filterable by basic transparent criteria (no hidden magic feed algorithms). It is legal to swindle someone in this country, so long as they get swindled enthusiastically and don't think they got swindled. I think being induced to buy a hamburger at midnight by a well placed ad, instead of just reheating some left-overs, is a swindling even if your dependency on this model for your economic survival has you kneejerking on me! The goal is we all turn into self-sufficient economic agents, not be labor-cattle induced by advertising memes to go into interest bearing debt by a thousand little charges.
- duxup 1y ago
  >"General Motors has paid us to tell you that ... ... ..." Are we under the impression that people don't know that? I think most people know what advertising is. I don't think that would change anything.
  - rustcleaner 1y ago
    Very basic example nobody argues with. Did you know your local news station gets some stories to present as their own and they are paid to present them? You may, but many might find that to be a shocking revelation. I was maintaining cognitive accessibility in that example.
ARandomerDude 1y ago
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- sdoering 1y ago
  Having a partner who uses these apps, I can confirm there's significantly more complexity involved than the reductive takes here suggest. She meticulously tracks symptoms—digestive function, fitness levels, headaches, blood pressure, temperature, and various other metrics—to identify cyclical patterns that correlate with specific periodical phases of her menstrual cycle (yes, pun intended). This longitudinal data collection proves invaluable for identifying hormone-related symptom clusters, particularly during perimenopause when having a structured symptom log for medical consultations becomes essential rather than relying on the classic "I think I remember feeling bad sometime last month" approach that doctors love so much.
- deleted 1y ago
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duxup 1y ago
The article doesn't define what exactly they mean by "risks women safety". I don't buy into the idea that all or any advertising is a "safety" issue if that is where they're going. I think there's a very weird type of patronizing that goes on where suddenly we fear for everyone's ability to deal with advertising as if they've got no self control or agency ...
- rustcleaner 1y ago
  Advertising is what's justified our shiny new 1984 surveillance grid. Advertising is risking all our safety!
- aaronbrethorst 1y ago
  A state like Texas being able to track a woman’s period means they will know when she becomes pregnant or ceases to be pregnant. That’s potential evidence of a felony in Texas. You connect the dots from there.
  - tantalor 1y ago
    Then the article should say that.
    - SSLy 1y ago
      Article is from a British source.
  - duxup 1y ago
    I don't buy into the idea that ANY possible evidence is a legitimate risk for being prosecuted when it would take a GREAT deal more than that to get to that point. Would flight info, rental car data, etc also contribute? Emails saved ...
    - giraffe_lady 1y ago
      A great deal more like for example a private cause of action bounty program and a clear & established commitment to using technological surveillance to pursue and punish people who have had abortions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/texas-abortion-license-plate-camera-b2760411.html https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/te...
jajko 1y ago
One of reasons I am underwhelmed by all the smart sport watches. When eventually their DBs get hacked or they sell data willingly, I dont want my employer to see that I was running in the forest during lunch time, or my health insurance to see any circulatory anomaly if I had any. Fuck that, I will start ignoring that few years before retirement, not a second earlier. Its a shame, and I know people like me wont bend the direction we firmly head towards
- tartoran 1y ago
  We detected an anomaly in your circulatory system. Your insurance premium has now been increased. Further advisory from BioMon Sentinel Node 7: Irregular fluctuations in hemodynamic integrity suggest low compliance with your prescribed wellness protocol. Molecular telemetry indicates caffeine saturation at 347% above neural-optimal threshold. Risk cluster escalation: Tier Sigma-4. Your vitals have been submitted to the Actuarial Nexus. A claim adjustment algorithm is currently rewriting your financial destiny.
- bluGill 1y ago
  OTOH, my mom went to the doctors because her watch showed data that made no sense (aerobic exercise all day when she was at work - retail is not that much work), and that started the chain that eventually found her cancer early and thus it was more treatable and she in turn is alive.
bethekidyouwant 1y ago
So each government should make a period cycle app and ban private companies from doing the same? Or the WHO should make the app? Clearly such laws will never be passed in every country. Is this any different from using a point card at a store and buying prenatal vitamins or a pregnancy test? Even a credit card has this type of purchase information, even if they claim not to share direct personal info to advertisers. I would say let users consent when they download an app and leave it in their hands to decide
- ToucanLoucan 1y ago
  Ban all advertising on automatically collected data. Users who desire to may opt in by voluntarily providing information about themselves to get the most relevant ads. Apart from that, ads become targeting-free.
  - bethekidyouwant 1y ago
    Pretty sure all the data for all targeted advertisement is automatically collected? When I search for things on AliExpress, and then later browse the Internet, it shows me ads for those things. Your solution sounds equivalent to banning all advertising on the Internet essentially when I do a Google search for something am I consenting to see ads for that thing?
    - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
      > Pretty sure all the data for all targeted advertisement is automatically collected? Sure is. > Your solution sounds equivalent to banning all advertising on the Internet Not at all. We made targeted advertising a central pillar of the Internet before we realized what that meant. We've normalized the notion of being spied on on the Internet at all times, but that's a choice we made (or perhaps didn't make) that can be remade. Every regulation on big business in the history of big business has been whined and bitched and complained about. Corporations swore they could never survive paying negroes the same as whites. Same for not being able to employ children. Same for being made to employ women and other minorities. On and on. Regulations get passed, society benefits. More often than not the corpos do too, even if they refuse to acknowledge it. Advertising, including online, existed long before targeting existed. It can exist again. I'm sure there will be pain but I have absolute faith in the tech industry, which employs most of if not all the best minds in my generation, to solve the problem. What they lack is a reason to. > essentially when I do a Google search for something am I consenting to see ads for that thing? ... yes? Edit: Also just like... you make it sound like there's NO WAY at ALL to "aim" your advertisements without a surveillance apparatus. It's ridiculous. * Recommendations based on purchase history: any given retailer can do this without running afoul of privacy regulations. Why not? * Contextual recommendations: Are you trying to sell drone parts? Cool, advertise on drone enthusiast forums and Facebook groups, and use the hashtags in other social media for those things. * Make Newsletters actually good: Put up a newsletter about your products. If it's quality work that doesn't hit my inbox EVERY SINGLE DAY, I would sign up for it. Like there are ways to advertise products in targeted ways without spying on people and creeping the fuck out of your potential customers. You just... treat them like people you have an ounce of respect for? Not sentient wallets you're trying to shake every last penny out of.
mhluongo 1y ago
We've incubated a private, local-first menstrual tracking app! My partner is the founder. She's a PMDD sufferer who needed a proper, science-first tracker to treat her hormonal symptoms. After Roe, she didn't feel like she had any options but to build her own app — Embody. We're getting ready for a security audit and to take it open source. Would love any feedback! https://embody.space https://embody.space
- deleted 1y ago
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wand3r 1y ago
While unlikely, I personally believe that advertising revenue should be taxed at 50%. This would do a lot to align industry incentives. Advertising revenue would be looked at less as a free cash stream that can be bolted on everywhere. In this case, maybe the app could be monetized directly instead of whatever the fuck is happening now.
- crazygringo 1y ago
  Revenue isn't taxed. Profit is. I suppose you could tax a proportion of your profit at a higher rate, according to the proportion of your revenue that came from advertising. But advertising isn't a "free cash stream that can be bolted on everywhere". It's part of a business model that either is sustainable or isn't. If you taxed it that much higher, a lot of businesses would simply go out of business, because people aren't willing to pay a subscription instead. Especially businesses that survive on a lot of users who use something only occasionally. Is that really what you want? Think carefully about how much journalism would be even further eroded...
  - Smar 1y ago
    There cpuld be harmful substance tax, akin to alcohol.
  - scotty79 1y ago
    I think in case of ad companies you could tax the revenue directly. They are strongly vertically integrated so there's really very little reason to track their profit rather than total sales. The only reason you tax profits rather than revenue is that you want to avoid killing businesses that do useful things why operating at low margins. Margins in advertising are huge and what those company do is pure detriment to all market actors on average.
    - Nasrudith 1y ago
      Wouldn't that effectively create a massive moat for high efficiency advertisers? The consequences of such a thing sound systematically perversely centralizing. Sort of like how if you were to ban all advertising tomorrow, it would strongly favor incumbents who have the most 'cached' advertising in human memory.
grvdrm 1y ago
I didn't see any apps mentioned but my naive question for this space: Are there any subscription-only apps out there that don't advertise at all (in app) and if they do it is based entirely on anonymized broader categories rather than individual targeting?
indigodaddy 1y ago
Only for advertisers that risk women's safety?
rotis 1y ago
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- gwervc 1y ago
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  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    > The report’s authors caution that cycle tracking app (CTA) data in the wrong hands could result in risks to job prospects, workplace monitoring, health insurance discrimination and cyberstalking – and limit access to abortion. > However, the report highlights how in the UK, apps designed for women's health have been used to charge women for illegally accessing abortion services... In the US, data about menstrual cycles has been collected by officials in an attempt to undermine abortion access.
    - rotis 1y ago
      That's another issue I have with this article. It lists the risks, but does not provide any specific well documented examples. It (and many others privacy related) does not try to quantify them either. Driving a car, flying a plane pose risks too. Yet milions of people take the risk daily. Jumping from 10th floor is also risky and here somehow most peoply don't try it. People intuitively can evaluate the risks on their own and ultimately you cannot do that for them. If examples of negative consequences of their data being sold start appearing, they will stop using these apps by themselves. But I personaly think these risks are blown out of proportion.
- deleted 1y ago
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cqwww 1y ago
At ConsentKeys.com we're already working on integrating with a menstrual tracking app (can't mention until the ink is dry), but we're a good fit for apps concerned with blow back like this as the apps that use us will never get the real personal information of the users in exchange for us offering to place them in our privacy centric marketplace (exposure) as well as de-risking themselves as a business, as well as de-risking their users from a data breach (or their information being sold/shared). Vendors also contractually agree to not try to assemble data in a way to try to identify their users as it makes no sense to use us unless you want to be privacy prioritized.
upofadown 1y ago
A relevant f-droid search: * https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Menstrual https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Menstrual All of the apps that showed up in the search store data locally. Why would anyone not want to store this sort of data locally? What is the advantage of sending the data off to a server somewhere?
- mschild 1y ago
  Because your typical android user is not even aware of it and if they are they don't know or care enough to look for an alternative.
- carstenhag 1y ago
  People have multiple devices, want to make the data available to their partners, etc. It's a legitimate but fragile use case.
- RadiozRadioz 1y ago
  I don't have hard data, but I think I'm correct in assuming that the overwhelming majority of F-Droid users don't menstruate
stuaxo 1y ago
This category of app should absolutely be offline first. If the data is shared it needs to be controlled by the user every time and not in a way that automatically goes to advertisers.
yumraj 1y ago
Curious does anyone know of a app/tool that can ingest a dump of your medical records, across platforms and EHR/EMRs and providers, and show it to you? Ideally this would be local, or self-hostable, and FOSS, but am still curious if it is not that.
- radicalbyte 1y ago
  There is little to no standardisation in medical records. There is an International Patient Summary (IPS) which was based on the EU's version. That and the data itself is decentralised in systems which are designed to be inaccessible.
brainzap 1y ago
You can track it in iOS without extra apps.
Aeolun 1y ago
Can anyone tell me why this would be as much of a problem for safety as they are saying? The only thing I can see happening is easier selling of pads and tampons during a certain phase of the moon. Apparently this is what the article suggests too, that certain things are easier to sell at a certain point in the cycle. It’d be embarrassing if someone knew, not dangerous. And even that much feels weird to me for a very well known biological function.
- VoidWhisperer 1y ago
  I think it becomes more an issue when you consider that in these apps, people likely also enter things like prescription medications they take, what kind of contraception they use, if any. Additionally, if this data is being sold to advertisers, and a user of the app becomes pregnant, it is possible that data could be used to determine that the user might be pregnant before they even know. This has the potential by itself to become an issue, especially for teens and in cultures where people take having sex outside of wedlock to extremes (as in responding violently to it) by starting to show that person and potentially their other family members on the same internet connection ads related to pregnancy/baby stuff
  - YetAnotherNick 1y ago
    > things like prescription medications they take, what kind of contraception they use.. determine that the user might be pregnant Those are PHI, and Google and other big companies wont dare to touch it with 10 foot pole. And the other part of your argument is so far into hypothetical space. Just because someone gets ads on certain thing doesn't mean the thing is real. These systems hallucinate all the time.
- prlambert 1y ago
  Yes, it's not about the menstruation, it's about pregnancy. Having a kid, especially the 1st, is the single largest shift in consumer spending in most people's lives (if they have kids). Aside from all the obvious spending on baby stuff, it predicts buying a house and where they might live, and puts that person (new mother, in this case) on a well-modeled path of buying behavior for the next 18 years. Needs and spending as children age through different phases are quite predictable and the spending is huge and touches almost every aspect of the person's life.
gbacon 1y ago
A fascinating chapter in The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg describes market-basket analytics at Target. They wanted to be able to determine whether a shopper is pregnant because that is an event that they believed women to be willing to reconsider their otherwise steadfast shopping brand loyalty. They got too good at their target ad mailers and so had to throw in decoys like motor oil and lawn equipment. The tipoff for expecting women was purchases of larger quantities of lotion and washrags.
Zaylan 1y ago
It’s honestly kind of disturbing. Period tracking apps used to feel like a helpful tool, but now they feel more like surveillance. Most people have no idea their most personal data might end up in an ad network. What we really need is stronger default privacy, not just longer consent forms. I’d love to see more apps that are local-first and don’t upload anything by default.
Dieter1121 1y ago
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neo-tac 1y ago
I gave up talking about stuff like this to average people. Whenever I bring stuff like this up, they just get mad and tell they have nothing to hide. This business model will never die, but at least alternatives exhist
pimlottc 1y ago
If you’re on iOS, you can track this information directly in Apple Health [0]. Their privacy policy [1] requires explicit opt-in for third party sharing. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/120356 https://support.apple.com/en-us/120356 1: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/

351 points by _p2zi 1y ago

_p2zi 1y ago

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deleted 1y ago
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olalonde 1y ago

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metrix 1y ago
Can you explain?
- calcifer 1y ago
  Historically, "safety" referred to protection from physical harm. It has now expanded into psychological, emotional, economical realms. This had the (very much intended) effect of redefining "unsafe" from imminent and persistent threat to anything that makes me uncomfortable.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Not sure how that's super relevant here? "my data could be used to accuse me of a crime" is a threat of physical harm anyway, unless you define being arrested as safe. And I don't really think public opinion has shifted on that part. You could argue about emotional comfort or something, maybe.
    - cwmoore 1y ago
      Being arrested by a “public safety officer” is not safe at all.
      - antifa 1y ago
        You could probably find 10 separate videos of "public safety officers" assaulting innocent people by shooting them with rubber bullets for no discernible reason or by trampling them with horses (also for no discernible reason), and that's only from the last 2 days.
        cwmoore 1y ago
        Ok, antifa, but there are over 10 million arrests in the US every year. Video is not in the same league of societal influence.
  - JohnBooty 1y ago
    In America, in many states, you can be imprisoned for having an abortion. Sharing your menstrual data and therefore having it available for subpoena is quite literally a physical safety risk. If you don't understand, or disagree that the word "safety" is entirely appropriate here, can you talk about why?
    - calcifer 1y ago
      > If you don't understand, or disagree I understand, and I do agree. I simply answered the GPs question.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    Really? Intentional infliction of emotional distress goes back to the late 1800s
- gosub100 1y ago
  When your ideologies don't stand on their own merit, one last resort is to redefine words (and hope nobody notices) in order to force people to believe what you say.
footy 1y ago
perhaps it has, but considering what American women in particular are risking if their menstrual data is leaked this doesn't seem like an example of said loss of meaning
- olalonde 1y ago
  What specific safety risks could an American woman face if her menstrual data were leaked?
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    If your period stops long enough to suggest a pregnancy, and then resumes without giving birth on record, that's enough evidence that you might have terminated the pregnancy. This can be correlated with travel records to find that you used a clinic out of state, which is a crime in some jurisdictions.
    - olalonde 1y ago
      I find it hard to believe this would qualify as "enough evidence" in any court of law. A straightforward defense could be that you simply stopped tracking for unrelated reasons. Also, are there really criminal penalties for receiving an abortion? From what I’ve read, the criminal penalties are reserved for those who perform or facilitate them.
      - footy 1y ago
        you don't even need to actually seek an abortion, and it's been going on for years. There are many reports, e.g. in the BBC[1], this personal story on CNN [2], this woman who had a miscarriage while using drugs and got four years [3], this PBS article about how the risk of miscarriage being criminalized is increasing [4]... etc. As a person outside the United States, America appears to me like a very dangerous place to be pregnant in, and what's even wilder is that people (men?) appear largely unaware of it. Regardless of whether you think it's right to convict an addict for a miscarriage or to convict a woman for seeking an abortion or for having a spontaneous one, these are all examples of the environment in which having menstrual data fall into the wrong hands could bring about significant harm. Your proposed defence reads wildly naive and woefully inadequate to me given all this. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 [2] https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/23/health/south-carolina-abortion-kff-health-news-partner https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/23/health/south-carolina-abortio... [3] https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/577876-oklahoma-woman-convicted-of-manslaughter-get-4-years-after/ https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/577876-okl... [4] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-criminal-charges-for-women-who-experience-a-miscarriage https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-cri...
dinkblam 1y ago
also in the 70s people would not even have "noticed" covid. back then people could not even be bothered to use seatbelts or stop chainsmoking (even in airplanes). what is considered "acceptable risk" has completely changed in the past few decades.
- gosub100 1y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnaires%27_disease_outbreak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnair... 1976 new illness appeared, CDC did a full investigation, identified the cause.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  In 1976 there was the H1N1 outbreak which only caused 1 death and 13 hospitalizations but lead to a massive vaccination campaign for tens of millions of Americas, so yeah, they would have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak
- brookst 1y ago
  There were 3 million excess deaths in the US alone from Covid, even with drastic efforts to reduce. I assure you, it would have been noticed in the 1970’s the same way the 1918 influenza pandemic was.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  That’s also because they had much healthier weights and were on average a decade younger.
- ejolto 1y ago
  The 1968 "Hong Kong flu" had a similar case fatality rate and they certainly noticed that.
colanderman 1y ago
Maybe you are completely unaware, but many US states have criminalized abortion. Pregnancies and abortions are detectable from menstrual data.
- mapotofu 1y ago
  With this in mind, why do the users trust these companies in supplying that data? I’m asking this is earnest.
  - colanderman 1y ago
    Most abortions do not result from planned pregnancies. It's not a problem until it suddenly is.
    - brookst 1y ago
      Miscarriages are also being criminalized in the US.
      - mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Which section code?
        RajT88 1y ago
        Miscarriages are spontaneous abortions. The anti-abortion laws are being used against women who have miscarriages.
        mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Miscarriages are not spontaneous abortions to those in the medical field. Sorry if the terms are confusing though.
        1y ago
hobs 1y ago
We're at a point in America where braindead corpses have to be forced to bring a baby to term https://www.today.com/health/womens-health/brain-dead-mom-forced-life-support-pregnancy-rcna206994 https://www.today.com/health/womens-health/brain-dead-mom-fo... So no, and take some time for self reflection.
Supercompressor 1y ago
Safety and privacy are so closely linked for this usage to be feasible, especially with how available and identifiable anonymised data can be.
deleted 1y ago
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sandra_vu 1y ago

I have been thinking about building a privacy-first tracking app for years now.

NoTranslationL 1y ago
I make one! It’s called Reflect. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id6463800032 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id64638...
- OJFord 1y ago
  Seems too nerdy for the market at large - the correlation etc. features might well be as good as or better than what the likes of Flo provide, but people will have a harder time understanding that than simply 'your next date is expected to be x', 'your cycle is typically x days', etc.
  - NoTranslationL 1y ago
    We definitely cater to a niche that wants to know the nitty gritty details. We’re trying to layer the app such that you get the TLDR first if you want, and can zoom into the details of why second
sigmoid10 1y ago
The problem is that stuff like privacy and open source don't attract the vast sums of venture capital that ad-selling businesses do. Sure, an average dev could probably build a working app like that - but could you ship the same quality as someone who can afford to hire an entire UX team?
- guappa 1y ago
  Probably… it would not make you sit through 30 seconds of ads so that would be a great UX improvement.
- asgerhb 1y ago

like_any_other 1y ago

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bgwalter 1y ago
Also the same NHS that gave Palantir a contract: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/patient-privacy-fears-us-spy-tech-firm-palantir-wins-nhs-contract https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/patient-priv...
deleted 1y ago
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2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago

Planned Parenthood makes one https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spotontracker https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spotontrac...

tempaccountabcd 1y ago
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NoTranslationL 1y ago

If anyone is interested in a privacy focused tracking app that stores all your data locally, I make an app called Reflect [0] whose sole purpose is this, plus on-device analysis. We’re working on a menstrual tracking feature right now and it’s pretty far along. We’ve just released an anomaly detection feature as well. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id6463800032 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reflect-track-anything/id64638...

oulipo 1y ago
I guess using FHE like from https://zama.ai https://zama.ai you could provide server-side features without compromising privacy
rtkwe 1y ago
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- NoTranslationL 1y ago
  I can understand that. We are also working on an encryption feature that doesn’t use the default encryption primitives so people can have custody over their own keys and feel better about their data security at rest
  - dylan604 1y ago
    Is that better than using the secure enclave type of default? Not everyone is an HN reader that would even know what a personal/private key pair is let alone how to properly/securely handle them.
    - NoTranslationL 1y ago
      As with most advanced features in Reflect, we’ll expose a low friction version to those who don’t want the control, but also the option for more control in the form of key management if they wish
- 1y ago

clvx 1y ago

If there’s something I’m looking forward with end to end vibe coding tools like Github Spark, Lovable and others is getting rid of these suckers. It would be easier to provide similar functionalities and customize them without major issues. Yes, it’s still not seamless enough for your average user but it’s heading in the right direction.

voidUpdate 1y ago

> arguing that apps must provide clear consent options rather than all-or-nothing data collection What's wrong with "nothing"? Other than the companies not being able to squeeze a few more dollars out of selling user data, of course

chii 1y ago
the 'nothing' doesn't mean no data sent - it means you don't get access to the app's features if you don't consent to the data collection.
deleted 1y ago
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bootsmann 1y ago

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josefritzishere 1y ago

It is painfully evident sometimes that America desperatelyl needs a GDPR-like federal law. The state-by-state laws are by nature peicemeal and it makes for a wild west of outright PII abuse.

yatopifo 1y ago
Even if you could create such a law, at this point in time, no law can protect americans agains persecution by government-affiliated groups who are immune from court scrutiny thanks to their protections at the very top. You would first have to send corrupt SC justices to prison, impeach Trump and prosecute all his henchmen. Forgive me, but i doubt this is going to happen now that the US is officially a dictatorship. There is no point in laws if you have no independent courts and almost no one is willing to stand up for democratic principles.
- glowiefedposter 1y ago
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- techjamie 1y ago
  Tracking the populace is a bipartisan goal, not just a Republican one. Democrats support some good measures like Net Neutrality, but they're also getting behind the "protect the children" surveillance laws just like the Rs. Even when they're in power, the best we get is department chiefs like Lisa Khan doing good work that the next administration reverts. But on the lawmaking end, they're still pretty complicit.

hello_computer 1y ago

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dang 1y ago
Wtf? We've banned this account.
- hello_computer 1y ago
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amarcheschi 1y ago

at this point it is already pretty known but mozilla read the tos of some of the most used period apps and analyzed it https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/period-ovulation-trackers/ https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/cate...

JohnBooty 1y ago

For those wondering why this is a safety issue, in many American states abortion or "fetal harm" is considered murder. You can be imprisoned, theoretically for life. This is of course a rapidly evolving area of law since the fall of Roe v. Wade. Having one's menstrual data available for subpoena is therefore quite a literal safety risk. "At least 38 states authorize homicide charges for causing pregnancy loss" https://www.law.cuny.edu/academics/clinical-programs/hrgj/projects/report-u-s-criminalization-of-abortion-and-pregnancy-outcomes/ https://www.law.cuny.edu/academics/clinical-programs/hrgj/pr...

deleted 1y ago
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nlitened 1y ago
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- scblock 1y ago
  Then you haven't tried looking. Women are being arrested and even convicted for having miscarriages, including in the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/georgia-arrest-miscarriage-fetal-personhood-rcna199400 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/georgia-arrest-miscarri... https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/01/conservative-dream-come-true-woman-sentenced-to-30-years-behind-bars-for-having-a-miscarriage/ https://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/01/conservative-dream-com... https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/06/health/miscarriage-criminal-charges https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/06/health/miscarriage-criminal-c... https://www.themarshallproject.org/2025/04/02/law-pregnancy-california-ohio-georgia-alabama https://www.themarshallproject.org/2025/04/02/law-pregnancy-... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-criminal-charges-for-women-who-experience-a-miscarriage https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-increasing-risk-of-cri...
  - nlitened 1y ago
    Every single of the six links you provided are about miscarriages and not abortions. Either I don’t understand something medical (not a doctor), or you’re mixing things to derail a conversation (dishonestly or unintentionally). Whether those miscarriages were natural or a result of human malice, is an absolutely separate discussion. How does all that prove an original point that an abortion can get a woman to prison?

bArray 1y ago

Combine this with the Meta Pixel illegal localhost tracking that bypasses privacy measures [1] [2] and the privacy leaking could be off the scale. I think this goes for all things - medical data such as heart rate, blood sugar, steps, weight, VO2 max, etc, could all be seriously misused. Personally I try to use apps that are not cloud-based, or make my own, but this isn't an option for everybody. [1] https://www.zeropartydata.es/p/localhost-tracking-explained-it-could https://www.zeropartydata.es/p/localhost-tracking-explained-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467

deleted 1y ago
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input_sh 1y ago
You don't need a Meta pixel if the app simply... shares the data with Facebook, as Flo was caught doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flo_(app)#Privacy_and_security_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flo_(app)#Privacy_and_security...

ubermonkey 1y ago

In the current climate, no one should use a menstrual tracking app of any kind, even those with on-device-only data. Asking normal people to figure out the risk profile of that data, and to evaluate the trustworthiness of a given app, is just too much. Use a paper calendar.

testing22321 1y ago
Even people in Canada? New Zealand? Many billions of people live completely free of this concern.
- ubermonkey 1y ago
  Do they, though? Illiberal ideas can take root anywhere. Yes, the concern is primarily for those in countries actively backsliding on liberties, but...
1970-01-01 1y ago
The risk profile of paper seems to be equal to the risk profile of on-device-only? How do they differ? Something you have v. something you have
- XorNot 1y ago
  Paper is easier to destroy quickly, and to also plausibly lose or deny having. This is actually one of the biggest problems I've found with Yubikeys: they're both too fragile yet also hard to reliably, deliberately destroy quickly.
  - 1970-01-01 1y ago
    I really don't agree. If I take a photo on my phone, it can be deleted in less than a millisecond. Shredding a paper calendar takes at least 30 seconds. I don't see denial of ownership as a legitimate strategy to data confidentiality.
    - 1y ago

bell-cot 1y ago

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deleted 1y ago
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frakt0x90 1y ago

As usual, we need laws preventing gross (in every sense) invasions of privacy. Building new apps that aren't evil still allows the evil ones to exist. Targeted advertising as a whole should be eradicated.

deleted 1y ago
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28304283409234 1y ago
Truly - how is this not data theft?
- thmsths 1y ago
  Because you "technically" agreed to it in the 5000 words long terms and conditions, you also agreed to the clause that says they can change at anytime.
  - makapuf 1y ago
    Maybe limit the contract that a person (who is not a professional in the subject of the contract) can sign to 200 words. Anything past the 200th word doesn't exist even if you sign it.
SoftTalker 1y ago
Laws don't seem to work when it comes to Meta, Google, et. al. They just do what they want anyway.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago

They don't need apps to do this. I sat in a meeting with a data broker in 1998 where one of their managers was chuffed that they could determine menstrual cycles by analyzing purchasing records. And it wasn't hygiene products. Various foods and other spending patterns pop out after a 28-day correlation over groups of women that are artificially "synced" into cohort groups. This invasiveness will continue so long as there are no consumer data protection laws.

beAbU 1y ago
Joke's on them, my wife likes ice cream every day.
- em-bee 1y ago
  does she eat more ice-cream during menstruation or pregnancy? does she change flavors? there may be patterns that you are not aware of. only a steady ice-cream subscription would be able to hide that.
- msdrider 1y ago
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  - creaturemachine 1y ago
    We see where you're going with that, and you really shouldn't. Besides, some men are really into it.
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giantg2 1y ago
This is interesting though. How would these sorts of correlation be protected against? We already know that anonymous health data can be traced back. Gather enough data in any domain, and you can pinpoint someone.
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plastic_bag 1y ago

There's a FOSS alternative called Drip. https://dripapp.org/ https://dripapp.org/ It is funded by Mozilla and Open Knowledge Foundation. Available on iOS and Android.

azalemeth 1y ago
Mensinator is also another FOSS that uses no third party sdks and is reproducibly built for android, fairly actively used, and made by women. https://github.com/EmmaTellblom/Mensinator https://github.com/EmmaTellblom/Mensinator
- carstenhag 1y ago
  As I had failed finding an app that was not ad-ridden or oldish, my girlfriend and I are using this (I am copying her values, to know when her period will be). Also contributing some code :)
  - radicalbyte 1y ago
    Can I ask why you use it? We used test strips - they're really cheap and way more accurate as women's bodies aren't clocks. That was effective for getting pregnant. Using anything except some kind of active measures to avoid pregnancy doesn't pass my engineer brain and certainly doesn't pass my wife's Pharmacologist brain (i.e. she actually knows what she's talking about whereas I'm using applied probability theory with assumptions).
    - konfusinomicon 1y ago
      this article got me wondering where the partner app, potentially named drop?, that warns drip user's partners to be more careful in their choice of words, or lack thereof, during that special time where domestic emotions often devolve in to an irrational mess ending with a few days of sleeping on the couch until the drip has subsided
      - 1y ago

tiahura 1y ago

The article doesn't explain how their safety is at risk.

msdrider 1y ago
[flagged]
- AnEro 1y ago
  So we aren't seeing any risk in anyone being able to have one's medical data if the other party has the money for it? Especially when some of that medical care is being banned in regions this data isn't treated legally like medical data and have bounties on people reporting on that healthcare received else where? Instead, the conclusion is just western women are accountability dodging sheeple that are just being coddled?
gopher_space 1y ago
Women do not have legal autonomy over their bodies in the US, and health data especially dealing with reproductive matters has been used to target individuals.
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giantg2 1y ago

Did I miss the part where the data risks women's safety? I was particularly interested in that part of the headline, but I didn't see it detailed in the article.

jedimastert 1y ago
Third paragraph: > The report’s authors caution that cycle tracking app (CTA) data in the wrong hands could result in risks to job prospects, workplace monitoring, health insurance discrimination and cyberstalking – and limit access to abortion. Did you miss it or are you disagreeing with these being a threat?
- mrweasel 1y ago
  Or violence or even death. Certain cultures don't take to kindly to pregnancies outside marriage, or maybe the family disagree with the choice of partner. A cousin works for the app company, leaks the information about an unexpected pregnancy to a conservative father or uncle. Girls is shipped of to family back home and is tragically stabbed to death a few days after arriving. Most people who collect data of this type of data lacks imagination if they don't think it can be misused.
  - jedimastert 1y ago
    More likely they believe that because they only collect the information they aren't culpable for what other people do with it.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Good point about family violence threats. That wasn't in the article, but makes sense.
- giantg2 1y ago
  The cyberstalking is the most applicable, but I dont see what the menstral data would provide vs not having the mentstral data. A name and address could present a potential threat, but knowing which days someone is bleeding one doesn't seem to be useful in attacking someone unless you believe it makes them a weaker target or something. The others aren't about safety. The one about restricting abortion is a false attribution as the laws would be the thing actually restricting it, not the use of the app. I'm not saying the problems shouldn't be addressed, but claiming safety is at risk is a bit of a stretch.

rustcleaner 1y ago

Probably the best one-liner fix in law I can think of, is to make it a imprisonable felony to give money to someone or an organization for the purpose of speaking a particular message as their own, and accepting money in exchange for speaking a message as your own. Basically ban advertising, or at least make each commercial basically say "General Motors has paid us to tell you that ... ... ..." instead of the sexy seductive style we have today. Ads, if they are to exist at all, should be limited to factual/quantitative statements about performance and reliability, and must not use any suggestive/qualitative statements. We need to make the various pillars of modern advertising criminal offenses: the main one is the use of psychological/memetic trickery to spread and make memorable a message for commercial purposes, then there's the financial incentive to shit up our cyberspaces with sponsored messages. The only place I should EVER EVER EEEVERRR find an advertisement for (say) a plumber, should be in the local directory for businesses under the plumbing section, and the list must be sortable and filterable by basic transparent criteria (no hidden magic feed algorithms). It is legal to swindle someone in this country, so long as they get swindled enthusiastically and don't think they got swindled. I think being induced to buy a hamburger at midnight by a well placed ad, instead of just reheating some left-overs, is a swindling even if your dependency on this model for your economic survival has you kneejerking on me! The goal is we all turn into self-sufficient economic agents, not be labor-cattle induced by advertising memes to go into interest bearing debt by a thousand little charges.

duxup 1y ago
>"General Motors has paid us to tell you that ... ... ..." Are we under the impression that people don't know that? I think most people know what advertising is. I don't think that would change anything.
- rustcleaner 1y ago
  Very basic example nobody argues with. Did you know your local news station gets some stories to present as their own and they are paid to present them? You may, but many might find that to be a shocking revelation. I was maintaining cognitive accessibility in that example.

ARandomerDude 1y ago

[flagged]

sdoering 1y ago
Having a partner who uses these apps, I can confirm there's significantly more complexity involved than the reductive takes here suggest. She meticulously tracks symptoms—digestive function, fitness levels, headaches, blood pressure, temperature, and various other metrics—to identify cyclical patterns that correlate with specific periodical phases of her menstrual cycle (yes, pun intended). This longitudinal data collection proves invaluable for identifying hormone-related symptom clusters, particularly during perimenopause when having a structured symptom log for medical consultations becomes essential rather than relying on the classic "I think I remember feeling bad sometime last month" approach that doctors love so much.
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duxup 1y ago

The article doesn't define what exactly they mean by "risks women safety". I don't buy into the idea that all or any advertising is a "safety" issue if that is where they're going. I think there's a very weird type of patronizing that goes on where suddenly we fear for everyone's ability to deal with advertising as if they've got no self control or agency ...

rustcleaner 1y ago
Advertising is what's justified our shiny new 1984 surveillance grid. Advertising is risking all our safety!
aaronbrethorst 1y ago
A state like Texas being able to track a woman’s period means they will know when she becomes pregnant or ceases to be pregnant. That’s potential evidence of a felony in Texas. You connect the dots from there.
- tantalor 1y ago
  Then the article should say that.
  - SSLy 1y ago
    Article is from a British source.
- duxup 1y ago
  I don't buy into the idea that ANY possible evidence is a legitimate risk for being prosecuted when it would take a GREAT deal more than that to get to that point. Would flight info, rental car data, etc also contribute? Emails saved ...
  - giraffe_lady 1y ago
    A great deal more like for example a private cause of action bounty program and a clear & established commitment to using technological surveillance to pursue and punish people who have had abortions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/texas-abortion-license-plate-camera-b2760411.html https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/te...

jajko 1y ago

One of reasons I am underwhelmed by all the smart sport watches. When eventually their DBs get hacked or they sell data willingly, I dont want my employer to see that I was running in the forest during lunch time, or my health insurance to see any circulatory anomaly if I had any. Fuck that, I will start ignoring that few years before retirement, not a second earlier. Its a shame, and I know people like me wont bend the direction we firmly head towards

tartoran 1y ago
We detected an anomaly in your circulatory system. Your insurance premium has now been increased. Further advisory from BioMon Sentinel Node 7: Irregular fluctuations in hemodynamic integrity suggest low compliance with your prescribed wellness protocol. Molecular telemetry indicates caffeine saturation at 347% above neural-optimal threshold. Risk cluster escalation: Tier Sigma-4. Your vitals have been submitted to the Actuarial Nexus. A claim adjustment algorithm is currently rewriting your financial destiny.
bluGill 1y ago
OTOH, my mom went to the doctors because her watch showed data that made no sense (aerobic exercise all day when she was at work - retail is not that much work), and that started the chain that eventually found her cancer early and thus it was more treatable and she in turn is alive.

bethekidyouwant 1y ago

So each government should make a period cycle app and ban private companies from doing the same? Or the WHO should make the app? Clearly such laws will never be passed in every country. Is this any different from using a point card at a store and buying prenatal vitamins or a pregnancy test? Even a credit card has this type of purchase information, even if they claim not to share direct personal info to advertisers. I would say let users consent when they download an app and leave it in their hands to decide

ToucanLoucan 1y ago
Ban all advertising on automatically collected data. Users who desire to may opt in by voluntarily providing information about themselves to get the most relevant ads. Apart from that, ads become targeting-free.
- bethekidyouwant 1y ago
  Pretty sure all the data for all targeted advertisement is automatically collected? When I search for things on AliExpress, and then later browse the Internet, it shows me ads for those things. Your solution sounds equivalent to banning all advertising on the Internet essentially when I do a Google search for something am I consenting to see ads for that thing?
  - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
    > Pretty sure all the data for all targeted advertisement is automatically collected? Sure is. > Your solution sounds equivalent to banning all advertising on the Internet Not at all. We made targeted advertising a central pillar of the Internet before we realized what that meant. We've normalized the notion of being spied on on the Internet at all times, but that's a choice we made (or perhaps didn't make) that can be remade. Every regulation on big business in the history of big business has been whined and bitched and complained about. Corporations swore they could never survive paying negroes the same as whites. Same for not being able to employ children. Same for being made to employ women and other minorities. On and on. Regulations get passed, society benefits. More often than not the corpos do too, even if they refuse to acknowledge it. Advertising, including online, existed long before targeting existed. It can exist again. I'm sure there will be pain but I have absolute faith in the tech industry, which employs most of if not all the best minds in my generation, to solve the problem. What they lack is a reason to. > essentially when I do a Google search for something am I consenting to see ads for that thing? ... yes? Edit: Also just like... you make it sound like there's NO WAY at ALL to "aim" your advertisements without a surveillance apparatus. It's ridiculous. * Recommendations based on purchase history: any given retailer can do this without running afoul of privacy regulations. Why not? * Contextual recommendations: Are you trying to sell drone parts? Cool, advertise on drone enthusiast forums and Facebook groups, and use the hashtags in other social media for those things. * Make Newsletters actually good: Put up a newsletter about your products. If it's quality work that doesn't hit my inbox EVERY SINGLE DAY, I would sign up for it. Like there are ways to advertise products in targeted ways without spying on people and creeping the fuck out of your potential customers. You just... treat them like people you have an ounce of respect for? Not sentient wallets you're trying to shake every last penny out of.

mhluongo 1y ago

We've incubated a private, local-first menstrual tracking app! My partner is the founder. She's a PMDD sufferer who needed a proper, science-first tracker to treat her hormonal symptoms. After Roe, she didn't feel like she had any options but to build her own app — Embody. We're getting ready for a security audit and to take it open source. Would love any feedback! https://embody.space https://embody.space

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wand3r 1y ago

While unlikely, I personally believe that advertising revenue should be taxed at 50%. This would do a lot to align industry incentives. Advertising revenue would be looked at less as a free cash stream that can be bolted on everywhere. In this case, maybe the app could be monetized directly instead of whatever the fuck is happening now.

crazygringo 1y ago
Revenue isn't taxed. Profit is. I suppose you could tax a proportion of your profit at a higher rate, according to the proportion of your revenue that came from advertising. But advertising isn't a "free cash stream that can be bolted on everywhere". It's part of a business model that either is sustainable or isn't. If you taxed it that much higher, a lot of businesses would simply go out of business, because people aren't willing to pay a subscription instead. Especially businesses that survive on a lot of users who use something only occasionally. Is that really what you want? Think carefully about how much journalism would be even further eroded...
- Smar 1y ago
  There cpuld be harmful substance tax, akin to alcohol.
- scotty79 1y ago
  I think in case of ad companies you could tax the revenue directly. They are strongly vertically integrated so there's really very little reason to track their profit rather than total sales. The only reason you tax profits rather than revenue is that you want to avoid killing businesses that do useful things why operating at low margins. Margins in advertising are huge and what those company do is pure detriment to all market actors on average.
  - Nasrudith 1y ago
    Wouldn't that effectively create a massive moat for high efficiency advertisers? The consequences of such a thing sound systematically perversely centralizing. Sort of like how if you were to ban all advertising tomorrow, it would strongly favor incumbents who have the most 'cached' advertising in human memory.

grvdrm 1y ago

I didn't see any apps mentioned but my naive question for this space: Are there any subscription-only apps out there that don't advertise at all (in app) and if they do it is based entirely on anonymized broader categories rather than individual targeting?

indigodaddy 1y ago

Only for advertisers that risk women's safety?

rotis 1y ago

[flagged]

gwervc 1y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > The report’s authors caution that cycle tracking app (CTA) data in the wrong hands could result in risks to job prospects, workplace monitoring, health insurance discrimination and cyberstalking – and limit access to abortion. > However, the report highlights how in the UK, apps designed for women's health have been used to charge women for illegally accessing abortion services... In the US, data about menstrual cycles has been collected by officials in an attempt to undermine abortion access.
  - rotis 1y ago
    That's another issue I have with this article. It lists the risks, but does not provide any specific well documented examples. It (and many others privacy related) does not try to quantify them either. Driving a car, flying a plane pose risks too. Yet milions of people take the risk daily. Jumping from 10th floor is also risky and here somehow most peoply don't try it. People intuitively can evaluate the risks on their own and ultimately you cannot do that for them. If examples of negative consequences of their data being sold start appearing, they will stop using these apps by themselves. But I personaly think these risks are blown out of proportion.
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cqwww 1y ago

At ConsentKeys.com we're already working on integrating with a menstrual tracking app (can't mention until the ink is dry), but we're a good fit for apps concerned with blow back like this as the apps that use us will never get the real personal information of the users in exchange for us offering to place them in our privacy centric marketplace (exposure) as well as de-risking themselves as a business, as well as de-risking their users from a data breach (or their information being sold/shared). Vendors also contractually agree to not try to assemble data in a way to try to identify their users as it makes no sense to use us unless you want to be privacy prioritized.

upofadown 1y ago

A relevant f-droid search: * https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Menstrual https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Menstrual All of the apps that showed up in the search store data locally. Why would anyone not want to store this sort of data locally? What is the advantage of sending the data off to a server somewhere?

mschild 1y ago
Because your typical android user is not even aware of it and if they are they don't know or care enough to look for an alternative.
carstenhag 1y ago
People have multiple devices, want to make the data available to their partners, etc. It's a legitimate but fragile use case.
RadiozRadioz 1y ago
I don't have hard data, but I think I'm correct in assuming that the overwhelming majority of F-Droid users don't menstruate

stuaxo 1y ago

This category of app should absolutely be offline first. If the data is shared it needs to be controlled by the user every time and not in a way that automatically goes to advertisers.

yumraj 1y ago

Curious does anyone know of a app/tool that can ingest a dump of your medical records, across platforms and EHR/EMRs and providers, and show it to you? Ideally this would be local, or self-hostable, and FOSS, but am still curious if it is not that.

radicalbyte 1y ago
There is little to no standardisation in medical records. There is an International Patient Summary (IPS) which was based on the EU's version. That and the data itself is decentralised in systems which are designed to be inaccessible.

brainzap 1y ago

You can track it in iOS without extra apps.

Aeolun 1y ago

Can anyone tell me why this would be as much of a problem for safety as they are saying? The only thing I can see happening is easier selling of pads and tampons during a certain phase of the moon. Apparently this is what the article suggests too, that certain things are easier to sell at a certain point in the cycle. It’d be embarrassing if someone knew, not dangerous. And even that much feels weird to me for a very well known biological function.

VoidWhisperer 1y ago
I think it becomes more an issue when you consider that in these apps, people likely also enter things like prescription medications they take, what kind of contraception they use, if any. Additionally, if this data is being sold to advertisers, and a user of the app becomes pregnant, it is possible that data could be used to determine that the user might be pregnant before they even know. This has the potential by itself to become an issue, especially for teens and in cultures where people take having sex outside of wedlock to extremes (as in responding violently to it) by starting to show that person and potentially their other family members on the same internet connection ads related to pregnancy/baby stuff
- YetAnotherNick 1y ago
  > things like prescription medications they take, what kind of contraception they use.. determine that the user might be pregnant Those are PHI, and Google and other big companies wont dare to touch it with 10 foot pole. And the other part of your argument is so far into hypothetical space. Just because someone gets ads on certain thing doesn't mean the thing is real. These systems hallucinate all the time.
prlambert 1y ago
Yes, it's not about the menstruation, it's about pregnancy. Having a kid, especially the 1st, is the single largest shift in consumer spending in most people's lives (if they have kids). Aside from all the obvious spending on baby stuff, it predicts buying a house and where they might live, and puts that person (new mother, in this case) on a well-modeled path of buying behavior for the next 18 years. Needs and spending as children age through different phases are quite predictable and the spending is huge and touches almost every aspect of the person's life.

gbacon 1y ago

A fascinating chapter in The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg describes market-basket analytics at Target. They wanted to be able to determine whether a shopper is pregnant because that is an event that they believed women to be willing to reconsider their otherwise steadfast shopping brand loyalty. They got too good at their target ad mailers and so had to throw in decoys like motor oil and lawn equipment. The tipoff for expecting women was purchases of larger quantities of lotion and washrags.

Zaylan 1y ago

It’s honestly kind of disturbing. Period tracking apps used to feel like a helpful tool, but now they feel more like surveillance. Most people have no idea their most personal data might end up in an ad network. What we really need is stronger default privacy, not just longer consent forms. I’d love to see more apps that are local-first and don’t upload anything by default.

Dieter1121 1y ago

[dead]

neo-tac 1y ago

I gave up talking about stuff like this to average people. Whenever I bring stuff like this up, they just get mad and tell they have nothing to hide. This business model will never die, but at least alternatives exhist

pimlottc 1y ago

If you’re on iOS, you can track this information directly in Apple Health [0]. Their privacy policy [1] requires explicit opt-in for third party sharing. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/120356 https://support.apple.com/en-us/120356 1: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/