13 ms·

Australian who ordered radioactive materials walks away from court

334 points by mrkeen 2y ago

mrkeen 2y ago
Follow-up from: 'Naive' science fan faces jail for plutonium import https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43449645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43449645
ulf-77723 2y ago
Most interesting for Australia and generally society is the fact that a judge has to associate the behavior of collecting different materials from the periodic table with mental health issues in order to not ridicule the current laws.
- kitesay 2y ago
  Yea
- that_lurker 2y ago
  And because of that he most likely will have really hard time getting a job after this
  - theginger 2y ago
    Possibly although given the story about it could go the opposite way.
    - grumpy-de-sre 2y ago
      Pretty sure he won't be getting a license to drive a train anytime soon. Especially not with a recorded conviction.
      - tw1984 2y ago
        according to australian laws, he has a pretty good chance to be sentenced without a conviction recorded.
        grumpy-de-sre 2y ago
        "Judge Flannery did not record a conviction against Lidden and ordered that he be subject to an 18-month bond and recognisance release order." Thank god, after a couple years he should have a real chance of getting his life back in order.
  - Cordiali 2y ago
    I get the impression that background checks are basically standard practice in America. That's not generally true in Australia, only in certain industries and roles.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
      It seems it kinda depends since there are background checks and background checks. In private sector, it ranges all the way from credit check to actual invasive paid background check conducted by a third party, whose accuracy may very wildly ( I don't want to go into too much detail, but buddy had some troubled history in one state, but the background check conducted in another state did not raise those issues at all despite the fact that those same issues would have been treated differently, where he is now ). And then ( mostly ) public sector, where the range goes a little further to include checks for IC, which, apparently ( I am not aware of anyone who had one ), include actual interviews with people in your life.
      - skissane 2y ago
        > And then ( mostly ) public sector, where the range goes a little further to include checks for IC, which, apparently ( I am not aware of anyone who had one ), include actual interviews with people in your life. Background investigators from the Australian military once came to our house. My father's partner, her friend's son was in the Navy and upgrading his security clearance, and he'd put her down as a character reference. They asked her all kinds of questions – "illegal drugs? prostitutes? gambling addict? secretly gay? cheating on his wife? beating his wife?" – and to all of them she basically said "not that I know of, but as his mother's friend I don't expect I'd be hearing about it if he was". And apparently they were happy with her answers.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > That's not generally true in Australia, only in certain industries and roles. In software and IT, it is standard practice (in my personal experience) for private sector employers in Australia to ask for a national police check (criminal record). Financial firms (such as banks) demand it, because they don't want to hire people with a criminal record for fraud or theft, they worry they'll use their insider access to commit fraud or theft again. And they often put standard terms in their vendor contracts to demand any vendor employees working on the contract also have a pre-hire criminal record check. Which means if you have finance industry customers (or hope to get them in the future), the simplest approach is just to do it for all your employees. If you are some small business doing tech support for other small businesses, you might not bother. But, since this is not fraud or theft, they officially speaking don't care – whether they would in practice, likely depends on the individual company (hiring manager and HR). Plus someone else mentioned there was no conviction recorded, which means he won't get a criminal record for this – well, it will probably remain in the database forever, but it will be flagged as hidden, so an ordinary police check won't include it. (I thought maybe that he might temporarily have a record until his bond expires, but reading more about it, sounds like that isn't actually true.)
  - _fat_santa 2y ago
    Would he though? This kid (assuming they go to college, etc) could quite possibly get a job in a lab or some other scientific establishment. At a place like that everyone would know about his case AND know how insane it was.
- rubatuga 2y ago
  Don't we all have mental health issues?
- deleted 2y ago
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- mianos 2y ago
  They have the wrong person with mental health issues. Everyone involved in this whole story, aside from some guy with a hobby collecting elements, are absolutely insane. (I live nearby so I have been following the story closely).
bpiroman 2y ago
Overreaction much? Should there be a ban on americium-241 in smoke detectors?
- eesmith 2y ago
  The legislation doesn't include americium, and even if it did‚ I presume it will be imported under license. https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A03417/latest/text https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A03417/latest/text says "Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute." and Article XX only mentions uranium, plutonium, and thorium. In any case, high-schooler David Hahn showed us what's possible with a bunch of smoke detectors, camping lantern mantels, and the like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn His lab became a Superfund site.
  - IsTom 2y ago
    In this kind of amounts it follows that import of coal should require this kind of license because of thorium content.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      I believe that is addressed in the sentence after the one I quoted. "Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute. The term source material shall not be interpreted as applying to ore or ore residue."
      - duskwuff 2y ago
        Fine, then TIG welding rods (some of which intentionally contain thorium).
        nandomrumber 2y ago
        Nitpick: TIG welding electrodes.
jampekka 2y ago
I find it a bit odd for press to name the person and discuss their health matters on top. Sounds like quite a punishment in itself getting branded like that. In e.g. Finland names are not published by the press unless the crime is severe and there's a conviction or the person is already a public figure.
- seb1204 2y ago
  Same in Germany.
  - Svip 2y ago
    I think most continental European countries do this. The publishing of names like this seem more like an Anglosphere thing. In Denmark, the press norm is usually first to publish names when they get a prison sentence of 2+ years.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      The 2+ years is the standard in Finland as well. Notably a lot heavier crime usually has to take place for such sentence than in US or even UK.
  - sunaookami 2y ago
    In Germany the full name is not published.
- aaron695 2y ago
  The internet has screw all that up. The criminal justice system should be transparent. Anyone should be able to watch any proceedings. This fits with your requirements as long as people don't report it. The Australia Federal Court live streams but it is illegal to yt-dlp / photograph the monitor etc - https://www.youtube.com/@FederalCourtAus/streams https://www.youtube.com/@FederalCourtAus/streams You also need people before and after (if convicted) to know. For instance witnesses or if they too were victims of crime. This is the impossible problem. It's not even the reporting, it's easy search, as old newspapers have been scanned I've seen a few family secrets (of people still alive) that I would never have known and never needed to know.
seb1204 2y ago
So what about the company selling the restricted material to him? Or the company doing the importing are they also reprimanded in some form?
- jenadine 2y ago
  From what I understand, that company is not under Australian jurisdiction.
- feraloink 2y ago
  Not sure who is responsible for confirming whether he had a permit: oversees seller or shipping company, or customs/import upon receipt in Australia. Guardian article says, "he ordered the items from a US-based science website and they were delivered to his parents’ home.... Nuclear materials can be imported legally by contacting the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office for a permit first." So maybe all of this fuss was due to not having applied and received a permit?
- fsmv 2y ago
  It isn't actually dangerous in any way. It's just a collectors display piece.
ggm 2y ago
I believe the guy got worried he needed to tell his employer, the railway, that he was facing a prosecution. His solicitor advised him not to. They stood him down and terminated him to minimise risk. I hope he gets his job back.
kweks 2y ago
"Safe enough to swallow" seems like a scary oversimplification for alpha-emitting substances ?
- atemerev 2y ago
  Depends on intensity. Microgram quantities of plutonium should be generally safe (unlike, say, microgram quantities of polonium). Not all alpha emitters are created the same.
tw1984 2y ago
kids need to learn science and some basic market economy. if they do that, they won't be stupid enough trying to collect the "entire periodic table". with Fr priced at like $100m AUD per gram, how would some dude living in his parents' apartment going to afford that? some primary school knowledge would be enough to teach him that gold is actually one of those pretty affordable elements to collect when compared to all sorts of those stupidly expensive & rare ones.
- Someone 2y ago
  > with Fr priced at like $100m AUD per gram, how would some dude living in his parents' apartment going to afford that? You buy a rock that produces Francium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francium: “its most stable isotope, francium-223 (originally called actinium K after the natural decay chain in which it appears), has a half-life of only 22 minutes.”, so buying Francium itself is not a good idea. Also (same Wikipedia page) “In a given sample of uranium, there is estimated to be only one francium atom for every 1 × 10¹⁸ uranium atoms. Only about 1 ounce (28 g) of francium is present naturally in the earth's crust.”, so you wouldn’t have a gram of it, by a very, very long stretch.
nullbyte808 2y ago
When I read things like this it makes Australia look like a penal colony.
- testing22321 2y ago
  I grew up there, but have been away for 20 years. I went back recently for a year and saw the whole country. It very, very much feels like a nanny state with an insane amount of rules, and regular folks who try to stop you breaking those rules.
  - nullbyte808 1y ago
    What type of rules? Like no feeding the Kangaroos? Those things look like freddy kruger.
_cenw 2y ago
Yet another instance of "the public doesn't understand radiation". Not even a month ago someone making a miniscule amount of uranium paint (on a channel that tries to recreate old pigments, most of them toxic) was accused of "creating a second Goiânia"[1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js05OEsmsm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js05OEsmsm0
shit_game 2y ago
good. from what ive read/watched about this case, it was absurd and an absolute abuse of the systems in place in australia. the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred. the explanation that "the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent" is absurd in its own right, even if it resulted in a favorable outcome. what a sad, offensively disparaging, and fucked up excuse from a government. here is a (arugably biased) relevant video about the subject from an amateur australian chemist that covers this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I
- otterley 2y ago
  > the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred. This even though “The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium – led to a major hazmat incident in August 2023. The entire street that Lidden lived on was closed off and homes were evacuated” ? It’s not like his activities had zero impact in his community. You don’t mess around with radioactive materials; even small amounts can be extremely hazardous to life and the environment. There’s a reason they’re not easy to obtain.
  - IsTom 2y ago
    That was a severe overreaction by authorities after they knew he had it for months in trace amounts.
  - shit_game 2y ago
    What impact? The impact of the Australian Border Force overreacting after they (seemingly deliberately) bungled the situation when they were first made aware of the situation? None of the elements this man was in possession of were either in a quantity or quality to facilitate any kind of hazard to anyone. The response by government was unjustified, and should have ocurred before the materials ever reached the purchaser. I urge you to learn about and understand the properties of radioactive materials before making judgement on this situation. The quantities and properties (particularly the encasing) of the materials in question largely render them inert. These specimens are not at all abnormal in the scope of element collection, and the response triggered by the ABF (complete evacuation of an entire street (note, not an entire radius???)) is unwarranted given the quantitites and properties of the elements (both pieces of information they knew beforehand).
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imhoguy 2y ago
Would ordering e.g. uranim glass beads [0] be acceptable? [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_glass https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_glass
- dhx 2y ago
  Maybe covered by the following exemptions of section 3 of Nuclear Non‑Proliferation (Safeguards) Regulations 1987?[1] (1) For the purposes of paragraph 9(c) of the Act, each of the following kinds of nuclear material is nuclear material of a kind to which Part II of the Act does not apply: (c) source material that is incorporated in: (i) the glazing of a finished ceramic product; or (ii) an alloy in the form of a finished constructional product, being an alloy the source material component of which is not more than 4% by weight of uranium or thorium; (d) source material that is contained in: (i) a chemical mixture, compound or solution, or an alloy, in which the uranium or thorium content by weight is less than 0.05% of the weight of the mixture, compound, solution or alloy; There's probably dozens of other acts and regulations which would also apply to which the exemptions above may not apply--for example, legislation related to import declarations and use of mail services. [1] https://www.legislation.gov.au/F1996B02071/2023-10-27/2023-10-27/text/original/epub/OEBPS/document_1/document_1.html#_Toc150603490 https://www.legislation.gov.au/F1996B02071/2023-10-27/2023-1...
  - phyzome 2y ago
    No percent-by-weight limit on the amount of uranium in the glaze... :-)
- feraloink 2y ago
  Probably would be entirely acceptable if one applied for and received a permit for them. >can be imported legally by contacting the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office for a permit first.
feraloink 2y ago
Woah, this doesn't sound like over-reaction but the reporting doesn't give enough details to know: >While his actions were criminal, the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent.... The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium... Seems weird that the judge said Lidden had mental health "issues". Who knows how severe or debilitating the so-called mental health issues are? Not sure how the judge can make that decision on his own, about Lidden's mental health excusing him for doing something "criminal", although one wonders too how well the 1987 nuclear non-proliferation law was written, and if it was even applicable given small amounts Lidden possessed. Key question is Lidden's purchase amounts of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium, and radium for his home periodic table display. (I totally understand the motivation for wanting to do that! I would love to have every element, even a tiny bit, for that reason too.) Plutonium seems most concerning. It doesn't exist in nature but Pu-239 is the by-product of Uranium-238 used for fuel by nuclear reactors. (Not certain about isotype numbers.) Lidden bought depleted uranium, so that's more okay... I guess. (Don't know what its half life is even after "depletion".) Pu-239 and Pu-240 half-lives are thousands of years. Due to the radioactive alpha decay of plutonium, it is warm to the touch! I wonder if he even had real plutonium, because even the non-weapons grade costs at least US$4,000 per gram. Final thought: Chemical toxicity of (undepleted) uranium U-238 is comparable to its radioactive toxicity. Chemical toxicity of plutonium Pu-239, Pu-240 etc. is minor compared with its radioactive toxicity. By chemical toxicity, they're referring to the tendency for plutonium to spontaneously combust if exposed to moisture, or in hot humid weather. It can even catch on fire when submerged in water. EDIT: Reduce verbiage
- IsTom 2y ago
  Plutonium was in form of an old soviet smoke detector, containing micrograms of it. This case is whack.
  - feraloink 2y ago
    Thank you. I only read the second, more recent article, not realizing that their was a prior one. Case seems ridiculous. Judge's ruling, despite no penalty, is embarrassing because he doesn't seem to understand the lack of danger of such small amounts, AND made gratuitous public statement about Lidden's mental health.
deng 2y ago
Good for him. This was an absolute ridiculous case. Lots of everyday items contain radioactive substances: old smoke detectors, uranium glass, old watches with radium dials, anti-static brushes, the list goes on and on. As a side note: coal power plants put quite a bit of radiation into the environment (technically 100x more than nuclear plants, if you sidestep the issue of waste), because coal contains Uranium and Thorium. The amounts of Pu that were imported were not only minuscule, but also embedded in acrylic for display. As an alpha radiator, this is 100% safe to have and put on a shelf. You would have to completely dismantle it, crush the few μg of Pu into dust and then inhale it to be dangerous to your health. I understand that people are afraid of radiation. I am too. However, it is important to know that radiation is everywhere all the time, and it is always about the dose. At the same time, we allow for instance cars to pollute the environment with toxic particulates that lead to many cancers, and somehow we accept this as unavoidable. But I digress... For those interested, here's a video from "Explosions and Fire" on this issue, a channel I highly recommend anyway, this guy is hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  Dont forget cobblestone in regions with high natural radioactive materials. If they mine for uranium in the rocks the rocks used to pave the surface and build houses are going to be also mildly active .
  - nandomrumber 2y ago
    Granite benchtops.
- thoroughburro 2y ago
  > if you sidestep the issue of waste If you do that, just sidestep the elephant, then nuclear is very attractive indeed!
  - fsmv 2y ago
    The waste isn't even that bad. There's not that much of it and we have extremely safe storage solutions. We way over engineered the safety by orders of magnitude. Nuclear waste storage facilities can take a direct missile hit and still be safe.
wzdd 2y ago
Collecting the entire periodic table? Noble goal, but good luck with e.g. Einsteinium.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Simon Mayo wrote a book with this premise: Itch (2012). Sequels include Itch Rocks (2013) and Itchcraft (2014).
ryan-c 2y ago
Kinda curious what site this was - I assumed United Nuclear (which I have ordered non-radioactive items from), but they don't sell Pu.
- 47282847 2y ago
  “item now discontinued“ https://www.luciteria.com/element-cubes/plutonium-for-sale https://www.luciteria.com/element-cubes/plutonium-for-sale
rdtsc 2y ago
> Australian Border Force superintendent, James Ryan, said he hoped the case would make more people aware of the regulatory frameworks around what can and cannot be imported into Australia Ah yes, the truth comes out. It was about making an example out of him. They knew immediately it wasn’t a big deal but they figured to have some “fun”. I guess people who weren’t aware are now aware that of the kind of people who work in Border Force.
- cowhow 2y ago
  Last year I returned to Australia from a trip where I passed through 6 countries. Of all the borders I went through, the Australian customs guys were by far the worst. Total cunts, talked to me disrespectfully, took apart all my stuff, forced me to unlock my phone so they could do a digital scan of the contents. I was literally treated better in Albania where I was the only one with an American passport and didn't know the language.
  - djrj477dhsnv 2y ago
    I've had a similar experience in my 2 trips to Australia and even worse was New Zealand. I've traveled to around 50 countries, mostly backpacking, but only in Australia and NZ was I questioned and searched for 1-2 hours as what felt like a suspected drug or human trafficker.
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aunty_helen 2y ago
Australia is an island and islands are weird places compared to continental countries. Border security is ridiculously overkill and there’s a mentality that you can just keep x out permanently. The first time you go from a country like this to the mainlands it seems weird they don’t check for things like having an apple in your bag when crossing borders.
- nandomrumber 2y ago
  If there's one thing Australian's all agree it, it's that carrying fruit across certain state boarders is generally a bad idea.
- trollied 2y ago
  England/Wales/Scotland form an island. None of that is true.
  - deleted 2y ago
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  - aunty_helen 2y ago
    There's certainly not a tv show then that follows border agents around like in Aus/NZ.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    Britain's ecosystem also hasn't been isolated and untouched for many many generations. Isolated islands like Australia have far more unique plants and animals that could be wiped out by an invasive species. It doesn't take much for one to gain a foothold to the point of being impossible to remove, either. The odds of an apple seed crossing from the US into Canada without a human involved are astronomically higher than one getting to Australia, hence customs are far more diligent in looking for that sort of thing. Since they're already on high alert, everything looks suspicious I suppose.
    - deleted 2y ago
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keepamovin 2y ago
I'm encouraged to see Australia has doubled down on its trajectory and declared curiosity a mental health issue. I can't wait to see what the future holds for Australian creativity & innovation!
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  I visited Australia once. It is an absolute backwater. The top engineers, maybe 1000 in the whole country, come to the USA anyway to work for Google or Tesla. Not to mention, they import 90% of their specialized workforce from Asia.
  - sealeck 2y ago
    Are you sure you went to Australia?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
justlikereddit 2y ago
Trying to have FUN? In the police state commonwealth of the UK/Canada/Australia? NOT allowed. You know what else is not allowed there? Everything else!
tianqi 2y ago
People laughing at Australia might be missing the point. It's not only about scientific danger, but also about border security tradition. Australia is an island, and their border mindset is very different from land-border countries. That's why you can get huge penalties for bringing something as deadly as... a wooden chess, to enter Australia without declaration. Not to mention a piece of uranium. Respect the different culture please.
- cromulent 2y ago
  If the point is that bringing items into Australia could have a negative impact as they are not present (such as cane toads, rabbits, etc) then sure. However, Australia already has much uranium. The mine at Rum Jungle has quite a lot left. Multiple nuclear explosions have taken place there. This is not equivalent to keeping rabies out, nor a cultural issue.
- caseyy 2y ago
  No need to respect a culture of paranoia and overcriminalization. The same culture is in the US with regard to lawful minority immigrants, do you respect it?
CyberDildonics 2y ago
This title is terrible, he pleaded guilty. "Emmanuel Lidden pleaded guilty to two charges: moving nuclear material into Australia and possessing nuclear material without a permit. While his actions were criminal, the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent. He is the first person in Australia to be sentenced under the 1987 nuclear non-proliferation act for the importation and possession of nuclear material without the appropriate permits."
- mrkeen 2y ago
  He pleaded guilty and then walked away without a conviction or penalty (unless he's convicted for something else in the near future, in which case this penalty would be added to that)
nickdothutton 2y ago
I wonder how many lost/unaccounted-for medical x-ray machines there have been in Australia since, say 1950.
rvba 2y ago
I read that Bill Gates has something like that, but he is obviously situated in USA and also insanely rich
whimsicalism 2y ago
I think there is something deeply unwell with the governance in many anglosphere countries. The extreme risk-aversion and deference to the 'concerned neighbor'.
- 127 2y ago
  It's sheep behavior. Looking out only for themselves and always going with the flock to hide themselves from risk. What is causing it? I would say incentives.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Fear of predators being the obvious one if we're going with the sheep metaphor.
- MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
  It is the rule of the old and sick, the moralizing scolding of the middle aged schoolmarm hysterically meddling in other peoples affairs. Some call it the longhouse.
phendrenad2 2y ago
If someone orders something that is illegal for them to possess, the seller should refuse to send it to them. Any other system could only exist to optimize for the number of arrests cops get to make.
- nandomrumber 2y ago
  That would require every sender everywhere to be aware of every legal requirement everywhere, or at least to every country / state they service.
  - phendrenad2 2y ago
    I mean, if you're selling chemicals, you should have a cursory awareness of the laws in the countries you ship to. And you should clearly mark what it is that is being shipped, so that if you miss something, it'll be flagged by customs. But governments of the world have a DIS-incentive to actually stop illegal activity before the fact, they want illegal activity to happen so they can swoop in and score points with the public by showing off how many criminals they brought to justice.
AStonesThrow 2y ago
Most commenters here are calling this court case ridiculous, and injustice, but honestly, I think anyone who wants to try this should be gently discouraged and ultimately prevented. So this guy was a bit mental, and decided that his hobby was to amass a literal "Periodic Table" on display, in his home? Did he have, like, a lot of friends who often dropped by to admire his Table and encourage him in his progress? Or, more likely I suspect, he was a lonely sad sack who would do anything to attract another human being's close interaction. It also seems that he was amassing a lot of broken junk. Are there, like, photos of his collection, because surely it could not be overly attractive or neat? If he is basically collecting obsolete and unwanted crap then that is a sorry excuse for any "home display". And yes, perhaps all this material in one place was 100% safe for our hero. Fine. But still, when he has visitors over, can he guarantee their safety too? If a dozen other people got this same "collector's bug" and amassed such a collection, could they also do it 100% safely and legally? I hope that the outcome from this case is that they can engage a social worker and an agency to help him tip all this rubbish into the bin and find some productive, social hobbies that will enrich him and somehow help with his challenges of mental illness. The last thing a mentally ill person needs is to be isolated with a barely-legal, dangerous hobby. Sheesh.
- antidumbass 2y ago
  Fascinating that you take the court's ruling that he has a "mental illness" at face value. How would you like it if one of your harmless hobbies was declared illegal overnight and your home raided? How would you feel if the only way the court lets you go home without a prison sentence is to agree to be declared "mentally unfit"?
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    I am not sure that you and I read the same article, because you seem to be misrepresenting material facts in some sort of attempt to bait or troll us, so I will not dignify this with an actual response.
- nandomrumber 2y ago
  Try not to be a cunt.
ironbound 2y ago
The mining companies must want the uranium monopoly really badly.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Australia
derefr 2y ago
It is this sort of case that makes me think that criminal justice systems should expect to output balanced-ternary outcomes by default: not “guilty or innocent”, but rather “defendant is provably at fault / no one is probably at fault / prosecutor is provably at fault.” It seems strange that, in cases like this where the charges were dropped as ridiculous, you still have to file a civil countersuit for the value of your wasted time and emotional stress — when the original criminal case already carried within it all the information required to instantly settle such a case in favor of the plaintiff. Why not just have any criminal case with a not-guilty finding automatically transition into being such a case?
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Why not just have any criminal case with a not-guilty finding automatically transition into being such a case? For the same reason we generally don't allow punishing prosecutors when convictions are overturned. By failing to impose a penalty for losing on the prosecutor, you hope that they'll allow themselves to lose more cases.
  - AngryData 2y ago
    "Allow themselves to lose more cases" sounds to me more like "allow themselves to pursue more ridiculous and frivolous cases in hope of extorting more people for profit and status"
atum47 2y ago
Several YouTubers I follow have been approached by the feds for some "illegal" project they were doing (NileRed, Backyard scientists...). I was pretty sure that this guy would get a warning at most
- areyourllySorry 2y ago
  tangential: https://xcancel.com/ididathing1/status/1611095209349206046 https://xcancel.com/ididathing1/status/1611095209349206046
Mathnerd314 2y ago
there was a much more "interesting" incident circa 1995, look up "The Radioactive Boy Scout"
exabrial 2y ago
Just a bunch of theater by the government organization to try to justify their existence.
ro_bit 2y ago
He ordered the materials online and displayed them in his room in extremely small quantities. How exactly did the authorities even find out? Let alone evacuate a neighboorhood decide to pursue such a trivial case
- kuratkull 2y ago
  Border Force looked into a later order of thorium, and that caused them to go over all his past imports which contained the plutonium. The plutonium had been sitting on the guys shelf for months at that point.
thih9 2y ago
As far as I recall, border force officials seized parts of the material at some point and later returned it - I wish there was an explanation why it was returned. I never found that earlier and I don't see any new information about that now. > Australian authorities flagged the thorium sample and instructed the courier not to deliver it, which they did anyway https://hackaday.com/2025/04/06/a-tale-of-nuclear-shenanigans-from-down-under/ https://hackaday.com/2025/04/06/a-tale-of-nuclear-shenanigan...
red_admiral 2y ago
Everyone should read Oliver Sacks' autobiography "Uncle Tungsten" - the past is a different country. Back in the day, a child could pick up chemicals and do experiments at home - one day Sacks' parents told him, "We'll install a fume cupboard for you, but can you make less poison gas next time?" You could also be legally under-age and not allowed to vote yet, but you could just buy pitchblende (uranium) and several other radioactive substances for your experiments.
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 2y ago
I wonder why Oz Customs didn't simply seize the shipment as it seems it was declared on the invoice or packing list. Given the miniscule amount, the authorities would not have known otherwise. On a similar note a Canadian prosecutor in Halifax got seriously concerned about the large amount of dihydrogen oxide in a hobbyist's container. If you can't hack STEM, the legal system is a good career option

334 points by mrkeen 2y ago

Follow-up from: 'Naive' science fan faces jail for plutonium import https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43449645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43449645

ulf-77723 2y ago

Most interesting for Australia and generally society is the fact that a judge has to associate the behavior of collecting different materials from the periodic table with mental health issues in order to not ridicule the current laws.

kitesay 2y ago
Yea
that_lurker 2y ago
And because of that he most likely will have really hard time getting a job after this
- theginger 2y ago
  Possibly although given the story about it could go the opposite way.
  - grumpy-de-sre 2y ago
    Pretty sure he won't be getting a license to drive a train anytime soon. Especially not with a recorded conviction.
    - tw1984 2y ago
      according to australian laws, he has a pretty good chance to be sentenced without a conviction recorded.
      - grumpy-de-sre 2y ago
        "Judge Flannery did not record a conviction against Lidden and ordered that he be subject to an 18-month bond and recognisance release order." Thank god, after a couple years he should have a real chance of getting his life back in order.
- Cordiali 2y ago
  I get the impression that background checks are basically standard practice in America. That's not generally true in Australia, only in certain industries and roles.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
    It seems it kinda depends since there are background checks and background checks. In private sector, it ranges all the way from credit check to actual invasive paid background check conducted by a third party, whose accuracy may very wildly ( I don't want to go into too much detail, but buddy had some troubled history in one state, but the background check conducted in another state did not raise those issues at all despite the fact that those same issues would have been treated differently, where he is now ). And then ( mostly ) public sector, where the range goes a little further to include checks for IC, which, apparently ( I am not aware of anyone who had one ), include actual interviews with people in your life.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > And then ( mostly ) public sector, where the range goes a little further to include checks for IC, which, apparently ( I am not aware of anyone who had one ), include actual interviews with people in your life. Background investigators from the Australian military once came to our house. My father's partner, her friend's son was in the Navy and upgrading his security clearance, and he'd put her down as a character reference. They asked her all kinds of questions – "illegal drugs? prostitutes? gambling addict? secretly gay? cheating on his wife? beating his wife?" – and to all of them she basically said "not that I know of, but as his mother's friend I don't expect I'd be hearing about it if he was". And apparently they were happy with her answers.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > That's not generally true in Australia, only in certain industries and roles. In software and IT, it is standard practice (in my personal experience) for private sector employers in Australia to ask for a national police check (criminal record). Financial firms (such as banks) demand it, because they don't want to hire people with a criminal record for fraud or theft, they worry they'll use their insider access to commit fraud or theft again. And they often put standard terms in their vendor contracts to demand any vendor employees working on the contract also have a pre-hire criminal record check. Which means if you have finance industry customers (or hope to get them in the future), the simplest approach is just to do it for all your employees. If you are some small business doing tech support for other small businesses, you might not bother. But, since this is not fraud or theft, they officially speaking don't care – whether they would in practice, likely depends on the individual company (hiring manager and HR). Plus someone else mentioned there was no conviction recorded, which means he won't get a criminal record for this – well, it will probably remain in the database forever, but it will be flagged as hidden, so an ordinary police check won't include it. (I thought maybe that he might temporarily have a record until his bond expires, but reading more about it, sounds like that isn't actually true.)
- _fat_santa 2y ago
  Would he though? This kid (assuming they go to college, etc) could quite possibly get a job in a lab or some other scientific establishment. At a place like that everyone would know about his case AND know how insane it was.
rubatuga 2y ago
Don't we all have mental health issues?
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[deleted]
mianos 2y ago
They have the wrong person with mental health issues. Everyone involved in this whole story, aside from some guy with a hobby collecting elements, are absolutely insane. (I live nearby so I have been following the story closely).

bpiroman 2y ago

Overreaction much? Should there be a ban on americium-241 in smoke detectors?

eesmith 2y ago
The legislation doesn't include americium, and even if it did‚ I presume it will be imported under license. https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A03417/latest/text https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A03417/latest/text says "Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute." and Article XX only mentions uranium, plutonium, and thorium. In any case, high-schooler David Hahn showed us what's possible with a bunch of smoke detectors, camping lantern mantels, and the like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn His lab became a Superfund site.
- IsTom 2y ago
  In this kind of amounts it follows that import of coal should require this kind of license because of thorium content.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    I believe that is addressed in the sentence after the one I quoted. "Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute. The term source material shall not be interpreted as applying to ore or ore residue."
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      Fine, then TIG welding rods (some of which intentionally contain thorium).
      - nandomrumber 2y ago
        Nitpick: TIG welding electrodes.

jampekka 2y ago

I find it a bit odd for press to name the person and discuss their health matters on top. Sounds like quite a punishment in itself getting branded like that. In e.g. Finland names are not published by the press unless the crime is severe and there's a conviction or the person is already a public figure.

seb1204 2y ago
Same in Germany.
- Svip 2y ago
  I think most continental European countries do this. The publishing of names like this seem more like an Anglosphere thing. In Denmark, the press norm is usually first to publish names when they get a prison sentence of 2+ years.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    The 2+ years is the standard in Finland as well. Notably a lot heavier crime usually has to take place for such sentence than in US or even UK.
- sunaookami 2y ago
  In Germany the full name is not published.
aaron695 2y ago
The internet has screw all that up. The criminal justice system should be transparent. Anyone should be able to watch any proceedings. This fits with your requirements as long as people don't report it. The Australia Federal Court live streams but it is illegal to yt-dlp / photograph the monitor etc - https://www.youtube.com/@FederalCourtAus/streams https://www.youtube.com/@FederalCourtAus/streams You also need people before and after (if convicted) to know. For instance witnesses or if they too were victims of crime. This is the impossible problem. It's not even the reporting, it's easy search, as old newspapers have been scanned I've seen a few family secrets (of people still alive) that I would never have known and never needed to know.

seb1204 2y ago

So what about the company selling the restricted material to him? Or the company doing the importing are they also reprimanded in some form?

jenadine 2y ago
From what I understand, that company is not under Australian jurisdiction.
feraloink 2y ago
Not sure who is responsible for confirming whether he had a permit: oversees seller or shipping company, or customs/import upon receipt in Australia. Guardian article says, "he ordered the items from a US-based science website and they were delivered to his parents’ home.... Nuclear materials can be imported legally by contacting the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office for a permit first." So maybe all of this fuss was due to not having applied and received a permit?
fsmv 2y ago
It isn't actually dangerous in any way. It's just a collectors display piece.

ggm 2y ago

I believe the guy got worried he needed to tell his employer, the railway, that he was facing a prosecution. His solicitor advised him not to. They stood him down and terminated him to minimise risk. I hope he gets his job back.

kweks 2y ago

"Safe enough to swallow" seems like a scary oversimplification for alpha-emitting substances ?

atemerev 2y ago
Depends on intensity. Microgram quantities of plutonium should be generally safe (unlike, say, microgram quantities of polonium). Not all alpha emitters are created the same.

tw1984 2y ago

kids need to learn science and some basic market economy. if they do that, they won't be stupid enough trying to collect the "entire periodic table". with Fr priced at like $100m AUD per gram, how would some dude living in his parents' apartment going to afford that? some primary school knowledge would be enough to teach him that gold is actually one of those pretty affordable elements to collect when compared to all sorts of those stupidly expensive & rare ones.

Someone 2y ago
> with Fr priced at like $100m AUD per gram, how would some dude living in his parents' apartment going to afford that? You buy a rock that produces Francium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francium: “its most stable isotope, francium-223 (originally called actinium K after the natural decay chain in which it appears), has a half-life of only 22 minutes.”, so buying Francium itself is not a good idea. Also (same Wikipedia page) “In a given sample of uranium, there is estimated to be only one francium atom for every 1 × 10¹⁸ uranium atoms. Only about 1 ounce (28 g) of francium is present naturally in the earth's crust.”, so you wouldn’t have a gram of it, by a very, very long stretch.

nullbyte808 2y ago

When I read things like this it makes Australia look like a penal colony.

testing22321 2y ago
I grew up there, but have been away for 20 years. I went back recently for a year and saw the whole country. It very, very much feels like a nanny state with an insane amount of rules, and regular folks who try to stop you breaking those rules.
- nullbyte808 1y ago
  What type of rules? Like no feeding the Kangaroos? Those things look like freddy kruger.

_cenw 2y ago

Yet another instance of "the public doesn't understand radiation". Not even a month ago someone making a miniscule amount of uranium paint (on a channel that tries to recreate old pigments, most of them toxic) was accused of "creating a second Goiânia"[1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js05OEsmsm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js05OEsmsm0

shit_game 2y ago

good. from what ive read/watched about this case, it was absurd and an absolute abuse of the systems in place in australia. the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred. the explanation that "the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent" is absurd in its own right, even if it resulted in a favorable outcome. what a sad, offensively disparaging, and fucked up excuse from a government. here is a (arugably biased) relevant video about the subject from an amateur australian chemist that covers this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I

otterley 2y ago
> the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred. This even though “The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium – led to a major hazmat incident in August 2023. The entire street that Lidden lived on was closed off and homes were evacuated” ? It’s not like his activities had zero impact in his community. You don’t mess around with radioactive materials; even small amounts can be extremely hazardous to life and the environment. There’s a reason they’re not easy to obtain.
- IsTom 2y ago
  That was a severe overreaction by authorities after they knew he had it for months in trace amounts.
- shit_game 2y ago
  What impact? The impact of the Australian Border Force overreacting after they (seemingly deliberately) bungled the situation when they were first made aware of the situation? None of the elements this man was in possession of were either in a quantity or quality to facilitate any kind of hazard to anyone. The response by government was unjustified, and should have ocurred before the materials ever reached the purchaser. I urge you to learn about and understand the properties of radioactive materials before making judgement on this situation. The quantities and properties (particularly the encasing) of the materials in question largely render them inert. These specimens are not at all abnormal in the scope of element collection, and the response triggered by the ABF (complete evacuation of an entire street (note, not an entire radius???)) is unwarranted given the quantitites and properties of the elements (both pieces of information they knew beforehand).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

imhoguy 2y ago

Would ordering e.g. uranim glass beads [0] be acceptable? [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_glass https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_glass

dhx 2y ago
Maybe covered by the following exemptions of section 3 of Nuclear Non‑Proliferation (Safeguards) Regulations 1987?[1] (1) For the purposes of paragraph 9(c) of the Act, each of the following kinds of nuclear material is nuclear material of a kind to which Part II of the Act does not apply: (c) source material that is incorporated in: (i) the glazing of a finished ceramic product; or (ii) an alloy in the form of a finished constructional product, being an alloy the source material component of which is not more than 4% by weight of uranium or thorium; (d) source material that is contained in: (i) a chemical mixture, compound or solution, or an alloy, in which the uranium or thorium content by weight is less than 0.05% of the weight of the mixture, compound, solution or alloy; There's probably dozens of other acts and regulations which would also apply to which the exemptions above may not apply--for example, legislation related to import declarations and use of mail services. [1] https://www.legislation.gov.au/F1996B02071/2023-10-27/2023-10-27/text/original/epub/OEBPS/document_1/document_1.html#_Toc150603490 https://www.legislation.gov.au/F1996B02071/2023-10-27/2023-1...
- phyzome 2y ago
  No percent-by-weight limit on the amount of uranium in the glaze... :-)
feraloink 2y ago
Probably would be entirely acceptable if one applied for and received a permit for them. >can be imported legally by contacting the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office for a permit first.

feraloink 2y ago

Woah, this doesn't sound like over-reaction but the reporting doesn't give enough details to know: >While his actions were criminal, the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent.... The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium... Seems weird that the judge said Lidden had mental health "issues". Who knows how severe or debilitating the so-called mental health issues are? Not sure how the judge can make that decision on his own, about Lidden's mental health excusing him for doing something "criminal", although one wonders too how well the 1987 nuclear non-proliferation law was written, and if it was even applicable given small amounts Lidden possessed. Key question is Lidden's purchase amounts of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium, and radium for his home periodic table display. (I totally understand the motivation for wanting to do that! I would love to have every element, even a tiny bit, for that reason too.) Plutonium seems most concerning. It doesn't exist in nature but Pu-239 is the by-product of Uranium-238 used for fuel by nuclear reactors. (Not certain about isotype numbers.) Lidden bought depleted uranium, so that's more okay... I guess. (Don't know what its half life is even after "depletion".) Pu-239 and Pu-240 half-lives are thousands of years. Due to the radioactive alpha decay of plutonium, it is warm to the touch! I wonder if he even had real plutonium, because even the non-weapons grade costs at least US$4,000 per gram. Final thought: Chemical toxicity of (undepleted) uranium U-238 is comparable to its radioactive toxicity. Chemical toxicity of plutonium Pu-239, Pu-240 etc. is minor compared with its radioactive toxicity. By chemical toxicity, they're referring to the tendency for plutonium to spontaneously combust if exposed to moisture, or in hot humid weather. It can even catch on fire when submerged in water. EDIT: Reduce verbiage

IsTom 2y ago
Plutonium was in form of an old soviet smoke detector, containing micrograms of it. This case is whack.
- feraloink 2y ago
  Thank you. I only read the second, more recent article, not realizing that their was a prior one. Case seems ridiculous. Judge's ruling, despite no penalty, is embarrassing because he doesn't seem to understand the lack of danger of such small amounts, AND made gratuitous public statement about Lidden's mental health.

deng 2y ago

Good for him. This was an absolute ridiculous case. Lots of everyday items contain radioactive substances: old smoke detectors, uranium glass, old watches with radium dials, anti-static brushes, the list goes on and on. As a side note: coal power plants put quite a bit of radiation into the environment (technically 100x more than nuclear plants, if you sidestep the issue of waste), because coal contains Uranium and Thorium. The amounts of Pu that were imported were not only minuscule, but also embedded in acrylic for display. As an alpha radiator, this is 100% safe to have and put on a shelf. You would have to completely dismantle it, crush the few μg of Pu into dust and then inhale it to be dangerous to your health. I understand that people are afraid of radiation. I am too. However, it is important to know that radiation is everywhere all the time, and it is always about the dose. At the same time, we allow for instance cars to pollute the environment with toxic particulates that lead to many cancers, and somehow we accept this as unavoidable. But I digress... For those interested, here's a video from "Explosions and Fire" on this issue, a channel I highly recommend anyway, this guy is hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I

ashoeafoot 2y ago
Dont forget cobblestone in regions with high natural radioactive materials. If they mine for uranium in the rocks the rocks used to pave the surface and build houses are going to be also mildly active .
- nandomrumber 2y ago
  Granite benchtops.
thoroughburro 2y ago
> if you sidestep the issue of waste If you do that, just sidestep the elephant, then nuclear is very attractive indeed!
- fsmv 2y ago
  The waste isn't even that bad. There's not that much of it and we have extremely safe storage solutions. We way over engineered the safety by orders of magnitude. Nuclear waste storage facilities can take a direct missile hit and still be safe.

wzdd 2y ago

Collecting the entire periodic table? Noble goal, but good luck with e.g. Einsteinium.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
Simon Mayo wrote a book with this premise: Itch (2012). Sequels include Itch Rocks (2013) and Itchcraft (2014).

ryan-c 2y ago

Kinda curious what site this was - I assumed United Nuclear (which I have ordered non-radioactive items from), but they don't sell Pu.

47282847 2y ago
“item now discontinued“ https://www.luciteria.com/element-cubes/plutonium-for-sale https://www.luciteria.com/element-cubes/plutonium-for-sale

rdtsc 2y ago

> Australian Border Force superintendent, James Ryan, said he hoped the case would make more people aware of the regulatory frameworks around what can and cannot be imported into Australia Ah yes, the truth comes out. It was about making an example out of him. They knew immediately it wasn’t a big deal but they figured to have some “fun”. I guess people who weren’t aware are now aware that of the kind of people who work in Border Force.

cowhow 2y ago
Last year I returned to Australia from a trip where I passed through 6 countries. Of all the borders I went through, the Australian customs guys were by far the worst. Total cunts, talked to me disrespectfully, took apart all my stuff, forced me to unlock my phone so they could do a digital scan of the contents. I was literally treated better in Albania where I was the only one with an American passport and didn't know the language.
- djrj477dhsnv 2y ago
  I've had a similar experience in my 2 trips to Australia and even worse was New Zealand. I've traveled to around 50 countries, mostly backpacking, but only in Australia and NZ was I questioned and searched for 1-2 hours as what felt like a suspected drug or human trafficker.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

aunty_helen 2y ago

Australia is an island and islands are weird places compared to continental countries. Border security is ridiculously overkill and there’s a mentality that you can just keep x out permanently. The first time you go from a country like this to the mainlands it seems weird they don’t check for things like having an apple in your bag when crossing borders.

nandomrumber 2y ago
If there's one thing Australian's all agree it, it's that carrying fruit across certain state boarders is generally a bad idea.
trollied 2y ago
England/Wales/Scotland form an island. None of that is true.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- aunty_helen 2y ago
  There's certainly not a tv show then that follows border agents around like in Aus/NZ.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Britain's ecosystem also hasn't been isolated and untouched for many many generations. Isolated islands like Australia have far more unique plants and animals that could be wiped out by an invasive species. It doesn't take much for one to gain a foothold to the point of being impossible to remove, either. The odds of an apple seed crossing from the US into Canada without a human involved are astronomically higher than one getting to Australia, hence customs are far more diligent in looking for that sort of thing. Since they're already on high alert, everything looks suspicious I suppose.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

keepamovin 2y ago

I'm encouraged to see Australia has doubled down on its trajectory and declared curiosity a mental health issue. I can't wait to see what the future holds for Australian creativity & innovation!

brcmthrowaway 2y ago
I visited Australia once. It is an absolute backwater. The top engineers, maybe 1000 in the whole country, come to the USA anyway to work for Google or Tesla. Not to mention, they import 90% of their specialized workforce from Asia.
- sealeck 2y ago
  Are you sure you went to Australia?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

justlikereddit 2y ago

Trying to have FUN? In the police state commonwealth of the UK/Canada/Australia? NOT allowed. You know what else is not allowed there? Everything else!

tianqi 2y ago

People laughing at Australia might be missing the point. It's not only about scientific danger, but also about border security tradition. Australia is an island, and their border mindset is very different from land-border countries. That's why you can get huge penalties for bringing something as deadly as... a wooden chess, to enter Australia without declaration. Not to mention a piece of uranium. Respect the different culture please.

cromulent 2y ago
If the point is that bringing items into Australia could have a negative impact as they are not present (such as cane toads, rabbits, etc) then sure. However, Australia already has much uranium. The mine at Rum Jungle has quite a lot left. Multiple nuclear explosions have taken place there. This is not equivalent to keeping rabies out, nor a cultural issue.
caseyy 2y ago
No need to respect a culture of paranoia and overcriminalization. The same culture is in the US with regard to lawful minority immigrants, do you respect it?

CyberDildonics 2y ago

This title is terrible, he pleaded guilty. "Emmanuel Lidden pleaded guilty to two charges: moving nuclear material into Australia and possessing nuclear material without a permit. While his actions were criminal, the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent. He is the first person in Australia to be sentenced under the 1987 nuclear non-proliferation act for the importation and possession of nuclear material without the appropriate permits."

mrkeen 2y ago
He pleaded guilty and then walked away without a conviction or penalty (unless he's convicted for something else in the near future, in which case this penalty would be added to that)

nickdothutton 2y ago

I wonder how many lost/unaccounted-for medical x-ray machines there have been in Australia since, say 1950.

rvba 2y ago

I read that Bill Gates has something like that, but he is obviously situated in USA and also insanely rich

whimsicalism 2y ago

I think there is something deeply unwell with the governance in many anglosphere countries. The extreme risk-aversion and deference to the 'concerned neighbor'.

127 2y ago
It's sheep behavior. Looking out only for themselves and always going with the flock to hide themselves from risk. What is causing it? I would say incentives.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Fear of predators being the obvious one if we're going with the sheep metaphor.
MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
It is the rule of the old and sick, the moralizing scolding of the middle aged schoolmarm hysterically meddling in other peoples affairs. Some call it the longhouse.

phendrenad2 2y ago

If someone orders something that is illegal for them to possess, the seller should refuse to send it to them. Any other system could only exist to optimize for the number of arrests cops get to make.

nandomrumber 2y ago
That would require every sender everywhere to be aware of every legal requirement everywhere, or at least to every country / state they service.
- phendrenad2 2y ago
  I mean, if you're selling chemicals, you should have a cursory awareness of the laws in the countries you ship to. And you should clearly mark what it is that is being shipped, so that if you miss something, it'll be flagged by customs. But governments of the world have a DIS-incentive to actually stop illegal activity before the fact, they want illegal activity to happen so they can swoop in and score points with the public by showing off how many criminals they brought to justice.

AStonesThrow 2y ago

Most commenters here are calling this court case ridiculous, and injustice, but honestly, I think anyone who wants to try this should be gently discouraged and ultimately prevented. So this guy was a bit mental, and decided that his hobby was to amass a literal "Periodic Table" on display, in his home? Did he have, like, a lot of friends who often dropped by to admire his Table and encourage him in his progress? Or, more likely I suspect, he was a lonely sad sack who would do anything to attract another human being's close interaction. It also seems that he was amassing a lot of broken junk. Are there, like, photos of his collection, because surely it could not be overly attractive or neat? If he is basically collecting obsolete and unwanted crap then that is a sorry excuse for any "home display". And yes, perhaps all this material in one place was 100% safe for our hero. Fine. But still, when he has visitors over, can he guarantee their safety too? If a dozen other people got this same "collector's bug" and amassed such a collection, could they also do it 100% safely and legally? I hope that the outcome from this case is that they can engage a social worker and an agency to help him tip all this rubbish into the bin and find some productive, social hobbies that will enrich him and somehow help with his challenges of mental illness. The last thing a mentally ill person needs is to be isolated with a barely-legal, dangerous hobby. Sheesh.

antidumbass 2y ago
Fascinating that you take the court's ruling that he has a "mental illness" at face value. How would you like it if one of your harmless hobbies was declared illegal overnight and your home raided? How would you feel if the only way the court lets you go home without a prison sentence is to agree to be declared "mentally unfit"?
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  I am not sure that you and I read the same article, because you seem to be misrepresenting material facts in some sort of attempt to bait or troll us, so I will not dignify this with an actual response.
nandomrumber 2y ago
Try not to be a cunt.

ironbound 2y ago

The mining companies must want the uranium monopoly really badly.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Australia

derefr 2y ago

It is this sort of case that makes me think that criminal justice systems should expect to output balanced-ternary outcomes by default: not “guilty or innocent”, but rather “defendant is provably at fault / no one is probably at fault / prosecutor is provably at fault.” It seems strange that, in cases like this where the charges were dropped as ridiculous, you still have to file a civil countersuit for the value of your wasted time and emotional stress — when the original criminal case already carried within it all the information required to instantly settle such a case in favor of the plaintiff. Why not just have any criminal case with a not-guilty finding automatically transition into being such a case?

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Why not just have any criminal case with a not-guilty finding automatically transition into being such a case? For the same reason we generally don't allow punishing prosecutors when convictions are overturned. By failing to impose a penalty for losing on the prosecutor, you hope that they'll allow themselves to lose more cases.
- AngryData 2y ago
  "Allow themselves to lose more cases" sounds to me more like "allow themselves to pursue more ridiculous and frivolous cases in hope of extorting more people for profit and status"

atum47 2y ago

Several YouTubers I follow have been approached by the feds for some "illegal" project they were doing (NileRed, Backyard scientists...). I was pretty sure that this guy would get a warning at most

areyourllySorry 2y ago
tangential: https://xcancel.com/ididathing1/status/1611095209349206046 https://xcancel.com/ididathing1/status/1611095209349206046

Mathnerd314 2y ago

there was a much more "interesting" incident circa 1995, look up "The Radioactive Boy Scout"

exabrial 2y ago

Just a bunch of theater by the government organization to try to justify their existence.

ro_bit 2y ago

He ordered the materials online and displayed them in his room in extremely small quantities. How exactly did the authorities even find out? Let alone evacuate a neighboorhood decide to pursue such a trivial case

kuratkull 2y ago
Border Force looked into a later order of thorium, and that caused them to go over all his past imports which contained the plutonium. The plutonium had been sitting on the guys shelf for months at that point.

thih9 2y ago

As far as I recall, border force officials seized parts of the material at some point and later returned it - I wish there was an explanation why it was returned. I never found that earlier and I don't see any new information about that now. > Australian authorities flagged the thorium sample and instructed the courier not to deliver it, which they did anyway https://hackaday.com/2025/04/06/a-tale-of-nuclear-shenanigans-from-down-under/ https://hackaday.com/2025/04/06/a-tale-of-nuclear-shenanigan...

red_admiral 2y ago

Everyone should read Oliver Sacks' autobiography "Uncle Tungsten" - the past is a different country. Back in the day, a child could pick up chemicals and do experiments at home - one day Sacks' parents told him, "We'll install a fume cupboard for you, but can you make less poison gas next time?" You could also be legally under-age and not allowed to vote yet, but you could just buy pitchblende (uranium) and several other radioactive substances for your experiments.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 2y ago

I wonder why Oz Customs didn't simply seize the shipment as it seems it was declared on the invoice or packing list. Given the miniscule amount, the authorities would not have known otherwise. On a similar note a Canadian prosecutor in Halifax got seriously concerned about the large amount of dihydrogen oxide in a hobbyist's container. If you can't hack STEM, the legal system is a good career option