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Kagi Is Bringing Orion Web Browser to Linux
- trostaft 2y agoVery interested, their search tool has been good for me, just haven't been able to try the browser.
- superkuh 2y agoI tried out paid kagi for a 3 months (even if you pay in bitcoin they still require your address). One thing you might want to know before going in is that Kagi does not return many search results. It never returns more than two short pages of results (~100). It is impossible to use Kagi like you'd use a search engine from 1995-2015 to 'surf' the web and find things by accident. That said, google only ever returns <400 results and Bing only ever returns <900. So there are no real options for search these days. I thought paid Kagi would be a real search engine. But it's not. And Kagi's browser is closed source so that's a no go too.
- yesfitz 2y agoI’m a happy Kagi customer, but that’s an interesting use case for a search engine that I hadn’t previously considered. Is there a “golden era” of search engines returning results for discovery? I use forums, wikis, and content aggregators (e.g. Reddit) to discover related topics. If a search engine returns too many results, I refine my search terms.
- alabastervlog 2y agoIn my mind, the three eras of search engines are: 1) Before Google. 2) Google before ‘08. 3) Google after ‘08. 1 and 2 were both pretty good for just exploring.
- wkat4242 2y agoI think Google after around 2022 is also another phase, where it became completely unusable.
- gazook89 2y agoHave you tried kagi small web? https://kagi.com/smallweb/ https://kagi.com/smallweb/ It’s not “browse search results” but more “curated stumbleupon”. You can also change your search lens from just generic “web” to “small web”, “forums”, “academic” etc or create your own lenses. I don’t think these answer your particular browsing pattern, but I for one am happy that it doesn’t return hundreds of results. I feel like that is kind of the point, even. I’d rather get fewer, but better, results and have it just say “look buddy, there isn’t anything else”. Plus, I’m not stopped from just adding `!g` to the query and getting 1000 garbage Google results if I want.
- 8organicbits 2y agoCan you explain your use case? Looking at hundreds of results from a search query doesn't strike me as "finding things by accident", but I'm curious to know more.
- dcminter 2y agoI used to do this too - it used to be that after you passed the first couple of pages of results from the major/mainstream sites the rest would be minor personal websites, forums, and similar. Find one good article on one of them and it was often worth adding to your bookmarks or RSS collection to ensure you saw the writer's later additions.
- gazook89 2y agoKagi has its “web” search, but you can switch to “small web” and get results like this. Or the “forums” lens if looking for user generated content.
- superkuh 2y agoMy use case for a search engine is for the search engine to return all URLs that match the search pattern I enter. Then I decide which of these I want to visit, not the search engine, becuase the search engine doesn't and cannot know what I want (especially since I might not even know). It's job is to spider the web and create the database for me to search in. It's job is not to tell me what I want like a social networking site.
- wkat4242 2y agoThey probably need your address for tax purposes. Especially the EU is really strict on charging us VAT for foreign purchases. It does completely kill the anonymity though, I agree. It's strange that in this case they're worse than something like duck duck go. Because they don't require payment they simply have less data on you (especially confirmed data). I'm sure kagi protects it but the data you don't even have is even better protected.
- colingauvin 2y agoYou can detach searching from any association with your paid account: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/privacy/privacy-pass.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/privacy/privacy-pass.html
- wkat4242 2y agoYeah but that means trusting them. I don't need to trust anyone not to share information they don't even have. They should really allow anonymous payments like mullvad does. There you're just a random number and you can pay with crypto without any addresses.
- freediver 2y agoPrivacy Pass removes the need for 'trust'. It gives you cryptographical guarantees of anonymity.
- superkuh 2y agoJust as long as you now give your trust to the Kagi made browser extension (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/kagi-privacy-pass/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/kagi-privacy-...) that is required and has access to your browser. Big yikes.
- andelink 2y agoBig yikes? Is it not open source? https://github.com/kagisearch/privacypass-extension https://github.com/kagisearch/privacypass-extension
- ravetcofx 2y agoyou may like to try https://marginalia-search.com https://marginalia-search.com which is great for finding things unexpectedly and much more from the small internet. https://stract.com https://stract.com is great too
- lurk2 2y agoEven when Google was good I can't really recall ever browsing beyond 100 results unless I was looking for a post in a forum, so I don't know that this is really a knock against them given that their value proposition is that you pay them and they don't collect your data. I do find it surprising that so many people in this thread seem to be excited about Orion; I'm not interested in using anything proprietary to browse the web.
- jacekm 2y agohttps://millionshort.com/ https://millionshort.com/ might be the search engine you are looking for.
- Nextgrid 2y ago> they still require your address Provide a random one if this matters to you? It's not like they have any way to check.
- dogman123 2y agoOrion on iOS has been life changing for me.
- Volundr 2y agoAs a Linux Firefox user who is Orion-curious I'd be interested in hearing more about how.
- kemotep 2y agoFull manifest v2 ublock origin on an iOS browser is pretty amazing.
- teruakohatu 2y agoYou got me excited and I installed it but uBlock Origin does not work and is not supported on iOS. If you have it installed and it appears to be working, it’s probably the default native ad blocker that’s doing the work. https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-on-ios/2 https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-...
- worble 2y agoWait... so they browser says it's supports manifest v2 and lets you install v2 extensions, but then they just silently don't work? That's pretty confusing behavior. Why even offer them if they're blocked on an OS level?
- teruakohatu 2y agoThat is my understanding, they can’t fully implement some of the lower level functions on iOS. The APIs seem to fail but fail silently so you can install the extension, it appears to be working but it does not. I think failing loudly would be better for users.
- kemotep 2y ago
- Mossy9 2y agoI've been loving Kagi search and am really looking forward to Orion being available outside Apple land. You can join the email list here: https://kagi.com/changelog#6479 https://kagi.com/changelog#6479 I'm a bit worried that Kagi might be over-extending here. Instead of focusing and capitalizing on search, they're expanding to the difficult business of browsers. I'm always hesitant when companies try to do everything everywhere all at once, since that might cause a loosening of focus on the original product. I hope them all the best nonetheless - people actually paying for software is due a comeback!
- BoredPositron 2y agoThey started with Orion.
- Mossy9 2y agoOh really? I did not know that. Sounds a lot better than the other way around
- erics118 2y agoTheir original product was an AI product, that later transformed into the search engine. Then, Orion was developed https://help.kagi.com/kagi/company/history.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/company/history.html
- BoredPositron 2y agoYeah, probably messed up the timeline because Orion had an earlier public release.
- jmbwell 2y agoTrying to use Kagi with other browsers lays bare the depth of collusion between browser makers and search providers. Getting out from under all that makes Kagi a whole lot more seamless and useful. It’s ironic that it is its own tight collusion, with the difference that you can use Orion just as well with any other search providers as with Kagi. So yeah, it seems like a departure from search, until you consider that for the features that make Kagi a worthwhile search product (privacy, neutrality, etc), “you can’t get there from here” with the other browsers.
- poetril 2y agoKagi has been one of the biggest value adds to my online life in a long time. Paying for the Kagi ultimate plans gets me access to the latest LLM models, and an incredible customizable search engine with a large focus on privacy. The Orion browser has been my favorite to use on iOS, I’m not sure if I’d use the desktop version because of its web kit base. But I’m glad to see it’s moving forward.
- vvpan 2y agoI keep being confused by this. People mention that Kagi has all these features but I never see them, do I have to up my subscription plan?
- galleywest200 2y agoIt seems that a lot of them are sort of "off" by default to keep search focused on search. If you want to get an LLM summary of a search, for example, end the search with a question mark. Example: "what is gravity?" instead of "what is gravity". The summarizer lives at a different page, here: https://kagi.com/summarizer/ https://kagi.com/summarizer/
- vvpan 2y agoOh I see. I knew "lenses" existed but as you say it's a multi-step process to use them and not from the browser search bar.
- iimblack 2y agoLenses can be setup with bang notation. So a research lens could use !r your-query-here
- i_love_retros 2y agoCan also click the quick answer link on existing search results page. And each search result item had a menu that includes an option to summarize the page.
- perihelions 2y agoPrimary source: - "We're thrilled to announce that development of the Orion Browser for Linux has officially started!" - "Register here to receive news and early access opportunities throughout the development year: https://forms.kagi.com/?q=orion_linux_news https://forms.kagi.com/?q=orion_linux_news " https://bsky.app/profile/kagi.com/post/3ljqsgjmkpk2n https://bsky.app/profile/kagi.com/post/3ljqsgjmkpk2n (I interpret that to mean there's a closed beta?)
- erics118 2y agoNot yet
- edent 2y agoI wish there were a Webkit based browser for Android. There are dozens of Firefox- and Chrome-based browsers, but nothing else. Wonder why?
- c0balt 2y agoBecause a browser is not just the engine (JS, Wasm, ...). A chrome/Firefox derivate is far easier to create because you can piggyback on their integration work (and maintenance) around these components.
- mappu 2y agoIgalia are doing an Android port of webkit named WPE-Android[1] including a mini browser shell. There is an APK you can run[2]. 1. https://blogs.igalia.com/jani/bringing-webkit-back-to-android/ https://blogs.igalia.com/jani/bringing-webkit-back-to-androi... 2. https://github.com/Igalia/wpe-android/releases/tag/v0.1.3 https://github.com/Igalia/wpe-android/releases/tag/v0.1.3
- edent 2y agoI caught my fish! Thank you :-)
- dooglius 2y agoWhat exactly is the benefit over Waterfox or Ungoogled Chromium here? The FAQ https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#firefox https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#firefox seems to be things that are specific to Mac or have privacy features already offered by open-source alternatives.
- Mossy9 2y agoI would say it's the business model. Customers paying you to provide a good service is straightforward for both parties
- c0balt 2y agoFwiw, it's a webkit-based browser. Another alternative browser engine in a usable browser is a plus for the Ecosystem. On the other hand, it promises to be a simple yet usable (builtin adblock + privacy) browser. Ime, brave is probably the closest however it has a lot of nagging around their crypto and ads.
- wkat4242 2y agoKagi has crypto now too? I thought that was just brave.
- yurishimo 2y agoThe comment you replied to is also saying that they find the Brave crypto annoying.
- wkat4242 2y agoWell yes so do I. I'll never use it
- ZeroTalent 2y agoI don't touch Brave because of the crypto thing and founder's affiliations.
- 2y ago
- james_pm 2y agoOrion for macOS is still pretty buggy and, in my experience, a bit too frustrating to use as my default browser. I want to use it and pay the $5/month even though I don't use it all the time. It's close to being good, but not quite there yet.
- nicce 2y agoSome bugs are pretty bad. There was one that drained my battery in 30mins. But I know it is difficult for a small team.
- throwaway743950 2y agoHow long ago was that? I've been seeing consistent progress on bugginess.
- nicce 2y agoThis was actually just last week. I guess GitHub made that, but I could not yet reproduce it.
- bpev 2y agoYeahhhh this exact bug is why I haven’t been able to use Orion as my main browser. I usually use Safari, pretty much purely for the battery life gains.
- 12_throw_away 2y agoYeah, I basically give orion a try every few months, I think the idea is fantastic. But it just hasn't ever hit the level of bug-free reliability that I would need, especially with extension compatibility. (Can't say this is surprising at all - making a web browser would be a ton of work even if the web wasn't a moving target) It does seem like their long tail of issues is going down - each time I check in, it is clearly improved. So fingers crossed it continues to get better ...
- mholm 2y ago
- lawn 2y agoI'll chime in that Kagi has been an incredible improvement over Google and DuckDuckGo search wise. I'm glad that we're seeing more alternatives in the web browser space and Orion being a paid option is believe it or not a selling point for them. I'm interested to see where it ends up.
- konart 2y agoKagi is still buggy as hell for me though. Text selection jumps all around even on hacker news (I say even because HN is pretty has pretty simple html\css\etc). Any web site with non-english letters and complex layot kills it.
- CGamesPlay 2y agoI assume you mean Orion. Does that still happen if you enable compatibility mode? I don't have the same problem, but I've reported several problems on the feedback forum and had some luck with getting them resolved.
- konart 2y agoOoopsie. Yes, I was talking about the browser. I'll read about compatibility mode, but I'm not sure why would I need to enable something like this on an WebKit browser on MacOs while Safari is doing great.
- drdaeman 2y agoI wonder if it is going to be proprietary-licensed (like their macOS version) or Free Software?
- CodeCompost 2y agoKagi is cool and all but... I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services. Any good EU alternatives?
- sanbor 2y agohttps://leta.mullvad.net https://leta.mullvad.net
- lxgr 2y agoSeems to be based on Google and Brave, both US companies.
- areyourllySorry 2y agoextra salt in the wound because they pay google for the queries. at least when searching yourself you pay with data, which may or may not be less profitable for them
- xandrius 2y agohttps://european-alternatives.eu/category/search-engines https://european-alternatives.eu/category/search-engines
- pjerem 2y agoI’m in the same boat but for Kagi it’s a little different : I don’t pay them because they are privacy friendly (or at least that’s another reason) but because the search quality is better than everything else, including Google. However fwiw, Startpage is nice.
- dustyharddrive 2y agoKeep in mind that Startpage is owned by an American advertising company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System1
- freehorse 2y ago
- imbnwa 2y agoI've liked things about macOS Orion but some key extensions basically only work with Chromium browsers. That's not really on the Orion team, Chromium has a bunch of stuff neither WebKit nor Gecko support specifically around the file system and in-memory blob sizes
- shipp02 2y agoI would've thought that Windows would be the next platform to port to given its larger user base. Maybe the decision speaks to the distribution of Kagi users across operating systems.
- cosmic_cheese 2y agoWebKit for Windows is not in a particularly well-maintained state, where WebKit-GTK (which is probably what Orion for Linux is built with) is in reasonable shape since it’s already used by GNOME Web (aka Epiphany). That might have something to do with it.
- igrunert 2y agoThe gap between the Windows and GTK ports is shrinking. Every JIT tier has been enabled for JSC on Windows[1], and libpas (the custom memory allocator) should get enabled soon. The Windows port is moving from Cairo to Skia soon as well, matching the GTK port (though I think the focus is enabling the CPU renderer to start). Webkit's CI (EWS) is running the layout tests on Windows, and running more tests on Windows is mostly a matter of funding the hardware. There's a few things still disabled on the Windows port, some rough edges, and not a lot of production use (Bun and Playwright are the main users). It'd definitely be more work than Linux, but it's not as bad as you'd think. [1] https://iangrunert.com/2024/10/07/every-jit-tier-enabled-jsc-windows https://iangrunert.com/2024/10/07/every-jit-tier-enabled-jsc...
- cosmic_cheese 2y agoThat’s great to hear. The more web engines are practical to use across all major platforms the better.
- stevage 2y agoI use Orion a bit on Mac. The blocker for me is that it doesn't support Ublock Origin. They claim that their built in ad blocking does 90% of what you need, but I really just want to be able to remove page elements at will.
- cosmic_cheese 2y agoOrion has a native element remover, just click the paintbrush icon in the toolbar. uBlock Origin support is at least partial because whenever I click an analytics-redirect link in my email and it opens in Orion, I get a uBlock “tracker blocked” page.
- vulcan01 2y agoThis is kind of surprising. For me, uBlock Origin works perfectly on Orion (installed from the Firefox store), and the element zapper / eyedropper in uBlock Origin works as well. I haven't seen any difference between uBlock Origin on Firefox vs Orion.
- stevage 2y agoThanks, will investigate again.
- BrawnyBadger53 2y agoI'm using Orion with ublock origin right now?
- 7thpower 2y agoOrion was a letdown for me. I’ve tried multiple times to switch over but basic things like autofill not working consistently were dealbreakers.
- mary-ext 2y agothe decision to stick with WebKit for Linux is interesting, I haven't had a good time with WebKitGTK as it provides a subpar experience, so I wonder if Orion is going to be different in this regard
- bryanhogan 2y agoGreat to see them leave the Apple cage. But wondering why they would chose Linux before Windows and Android? Wouldn't these markets be much more relevant?
- saagarjha 2y agoEasier to port to
- bryanhogan 2y agoThe easiest solution would be to not port at all. Curious under what considerations it was deemed worthwhile for them to commit to this.
- realo 2y agoIf anyone from the Kagi team is reading this: Why does Orion on iOS not support Bluetooth Web BLE ?? That would really set it apart from Safari...
- sebazzz 2y agoNice, if it runs on Linux it can run on Windows through WSL.
- palata 2y agoI have been a happy user of Kagi search for a couple years, but I really hope they don't start going everywhere. They have Kagi translate, they also mentioned building an email service. I like Kagi search because it works well. I actively avoid their other products because I want to encourage them to stay focused and make a good product.
- freediver 2y agoThank you for your feedback. Please do not avoid our other products :) It makes the Kagi eco-system stronger. We do not want to be a one product company, at mercy of big tech and other platforms. We are genuinly trying to create a user-friendly, user-centric alternative for consuming the web. It has always been the plan. And all that while keeping the search product changelog the most active of any search engine in the world https://kagi.com/changelog https://kagi.com/changelog
- mbarria 2y agoOrion Browser is basically as old a product as Kagi Search.
- goneri 2y agoI used to be a Kagi customer, but the fact that they waste their energy with all these distractions is depressing. They should instead build a real search engine and stop reselling Bing.
- mathverse 2y agoKagi should try to find an additional revenue stream instead of trying super complicated and complex projects like maintaining a browser (even if it's just some kind of fork like Arc).
- maxwellprice265 2y ago[dead]
- tuananh 2y agoa closed source browser is no go for me.
- deng 2y agoI'm probably not the only one who got an email from "Brandon Saltalamacchia" with We're giving you a full 30-day trial of Kagi Professional because we know you'll love it. Click "here" to activate your trial, no strings attached. Well, clicked on it, saw that OF COURSE it'll convert to a normal subscription after the trial, which I usually wouldn't have a big problem with, but this is clearly a string that is very much attached. This kind of BS communication does not leave a good impression on me.
- wazdra 2y agoA few weeks ago, I saw a blog post here about their new billing policy[1]: if you don't use Kagi during a month, they'll pause your subscription. Personally, because of this one feature of their subscription, I don't feel too bad about such "trial schemes". I'm not affiliated with Kagi, nor am I a paid customer. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42944371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42944371
- deng 2y agoAgain: I usually would not have a problem with this at all. All I'm asking for is honest communication. It's not difficult. In this case, just write: "If you subscribe to Kagi Professional now, we'll give you the first month for free!". I probably would have taken that offer.
- nouryqt 2y agoI got that email too. When it wanted my credit-card number I didn't have my wallet by my side so I thought I'd do it later. When I remembered the next day and wanted to give it a try again I was told I had already used the code. Guess not then.
- seth_at_kagi 2y agoHeyo, did you try recently? We had some bugs initially but released some fixes to make the experience better afterwards. If you try again - it should work just fine. If it does not, you can always contact support@kagi.com and we'll get it fixed asap. As for the credit-card number, the form should not ask you for a card. It will ask you for your name and address for tax purposes, should you continue the trial afterwards but it will not ask for your card number. We've had some other people mistake this form for a card form as well. (and if it somehow is, then definitely contact support with screenshots because that is not expected)
- xarope 2y agoI've been on the fence about Kagi as a search engine, but if Orion comes to Linux and Android[0], I'd definitely seal the deal on the subscription. [0]hint hint, since not ALL of us are beholden to the Apple tax.
- RaulKong898 2y agoCan you give me a link to download the browser?
- RaulKong898 2y agoHow can I download this browser on Fedora too?