13 ms·
Garmin's –$40B Pivot
- IronWolve 2y agoGarmin Watch 30 days battery life Fitbit 5-7 days Apple 1 day
- mbirth 2y agoMy average time away from any USB port: <2 hours
- ddghhhhdaf 2y agoI’m using a Garmin for bike navigation on long trips (Edge Explore 2). It works but all the software feels old and brittle. Syncing will fail frequently. Are the watches different?
- maskull 2y agoI'm amazed apple has got by with a 3/4 day charge for 10 generations while garmin has had products with a 7+ day charge for years.
- dboreham 2y agoSamsung has had 2+ day charge for several generations. Their software was/is terrible, but since the switch to Google code 2 generations ago it is not bad.
- Etheryte 2y agoThey target different market segments, that's all there is to it. Similar to how some phones get away with having an absolute rubbish camera while other brands offer high resolution cameras — they sell to different people and both companies do fine.
- hx833001 2y agoUltra has better battery life, most people don’t wear a watch while sleeping, so it’s easy to charge at night like you do with a phone anyway. It also enables you to do almost everything essential in terms of communication without a phone if you want to leave it. Garmin watches do not.
- dkdbejwi383 2y ago> most people don’t wear a watch while sleeping, so it’s easy to charge at night like you do with a phone anyway for me at least, the silent alarm so as to not disturb my partner is a huge part of the value in a smart watch.
- Marsymars 2y agoI bought a Fitbit Inspire 3 several years ago for <$100 for this feature alone. Works great for that.
- KeplerBoy 2y agoI thought the sleep tracking and resting heart rate tracking is one of the most important features of a smartwatch. pretty sure most garmin users wear them at night for these reasons.
- LandR 2y agoI always thought resting heart rate while sleeping was a pointless metric ? YOu can have a resting heart rate while sleeping in the 30s, yet your real resting heart rate in the 60s. I don't need a watch to tell me if I was sleeping or not, I was there, I know if I was sleeping... I also don't see the point if it telling me if I got enough sleep or not. Again, I know if I didn't get enough sleep as I'm tired... I also don't think it's sleep tracker is accurate, I've had my garmin tell me I have taken naps when I hadn't. I was just lying on the sofa watching a film and didn't get up for an hour or so. That doesn't mean I'm asleep.
- KeplerBoy 2y agoI guess most metrics are pointless if looked at in absolute terms and isolation, but trends might still be interesting.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou remember when you fell asleep? I don't. Watch tracks how often you wake up, how long you spend in the deep sleep, etc. A lot of value is in the long term trends. One bad night doesn't mean much but if our sleep quality is trending down over weeks, it's a sign you should change something.
- jgtrosh 2y agoAn Apple device would need to bring 9.3x the value of a Garmin device in other ways to compensate the charge gap? I'd say Apple users would agree that it does.
- scarface_74 2y agoI can just leave my phone at home when I’m running or in the gym and get phone calls, send messages, and stream music from my watch. I have a stand by my bed that I just plop my phone, watch and AirPods on and they all charge wirelessly and use MagSafe so I don’t have to worry about placement.
- joeofbook 2y ago[dead]
- marliechiller 2y agoIf you have to charge overnight, you miss out on all the benefits of sleep tracking which personally, has been essential in managing recovery and also illness
- scarface_74 2y agoOther people are commenting here that they can wake up, put their phone on the charger and it is charged enough to last a full day by the time they take a shower and get dressed in the morning. It’s fully charged in an hour and half from looking at the documentation.
- lxgr 2y agoI usually spend half an hour or less between waking up and leaving for work, and also shower less than half an hour. I definitely find the Apple Watch battery life to be one of its biggest downsides.
- tzs 2y agoMany people get more than 3/4 day. For the Series 10 that 18 hours of battery is based on 300 time checks, 90 notifications, 15 minutes of using apps, and a 60-minute workout with music playback from the watch via Bluetooth. For watches without cellular it also assumes 18 hours of Bluetooth connection to a phone. For watches with cellular it assumes 14 hours of Bluetooth connection to a phone and 4 hours of LTE cellular connection. I've got mine set to charge to 80%, and over 23.5 hours it typically falls to somewhere in the 30-40% range. I put it on the charger for 30 minutes when I sit on my couch in the evening to watch Jeopardy! and do the NYT crossword puzzle. That's plenty of time to get it back to 80%. I do have the always on display turned off, so the display only comes on when I turn the watch to look at it or tap or click. Always on display would take more power but my recollection from before turning it off is that it would still easily make it 23.5 hours starting from 80%. With a 20 W charger it can go from 0 to 80% in 30 minutes, so that would still be done by the time I finished Jeopardy and the crossword. (I didn't turn off always on display to save battery. I turned it off because I didn't really find it useful. When I'm not actively checking the watch I almost hold it in a position where I don't really have a good look at the display, and moving it so I can get a good look almost always would be enough to turn it on in "raise to wake" mode).
- rm445 2y agoOnce you give up sleep tracking as a feature, it doesn't matter too much as people can charge their watch nightly. I'm very much on the other side of that decision - I find sleep tracking to be a killer feature, but you can see how Apple got away with it.
- layer8 2y agoFrom my research, none of the available sleep tracking solutions are reliable, unless you attach electrodes to your head. When using multiple sleep tracking solutions in parallel, they all report significantly different results.
- mbirth 2y agoYes. Simply sleeping on the arm where you wear your watch will make it record crazy values. The sleep quality and breathing measurements are based on movement - which doesn’t make sense when you have another person or pet with you in the bed that also tends to move at night. That’s why we still have sleeping labs. However, the watch’s data can be an indicator that something is wrong and get people to at least mention it to their doc.
- mbirth 2y agoI’ve got a charger for my Apple Watch on my desk. I charge my watch in the evening while I’m doing stuff on the computer. When it’s bedtime, the watch is at 100% - ready for sleep tracking and the next day.
- doctorpangloss 2y agoThat's because the analysis about Garmin is wrong. None of that stuff matters. Garmin's competition is having kids. Moms and dads will buy Apple Watches because it is more compatible with the having kids lifestyle. In contrast you don't need a dive computer or a bicycle thing when you have no time for hobbies. So an Apple Watch with a diving app meets the demand for aspirational hobbies, which of course, aspirations have a much larger audience than going out and doing something. That said, people having fewer kids is ultimately what is helping them the most. Every hobby got more expensive, there is more demand. If you believe that more dogs and cats, less home buying, more video game playing and TV watching, etc. is also related to the trend of fewer kids - if you read what experts say about this, and if you can believe that LOTS of stuff people spend money LOTS of money on is DIRECTLY CAUSED by the decision to have or not have kids - then expand your mind and look for it everywhere.
- busterarm 2y agoI live in a part of the country where most people still have 3-5 kids. Some of their parents had like 8. Everyone is very active outdoors here and as a family. The gyms are family gyms and have daycare services while you work out. Fitness is VERY popular here as are fitness trackers and Apple is a distant third to Garmin & Fitbit.
- blairbeckwith 2y agoI don't know if you have any data to back up your claims, and I have nothing to back mine up but anecdotes but – all of the most active people I know have kids and all my single friends are amongst the most sedentary.
- doctorpangloss 2y agoI have kids and I'm very active too. I'm not saying they're not active. I'm saying they're not diving. And if they do dive, once, wouldn't they be buying an Apple Watch Ultra for Christmas, that says that it can do your dive, but also be useful every single day of the year? In terms of data, well, the number of kids per family is trending down, marriage is trending down, relationships are trending down... I don't need to measure anything, everyone's audience is becoming the No Kids audience.
- thebruce87m 2y agoMy Apple Watch is normally >40% by 10pm then goes on the charging stand when I go to bed. It’s part of the routine. Even if it lasted 7 days my routine would be the same.
- newsclues 2y agoAnother example of a tech company that would not exist without the military
- RandallBrown 2y agoBecause the military invented GPS? The military (sort of) invented the Internet too, so no tech company would exist without the military.
- newsclues 2y agoGoes back further than the internet. Computers, and networks, were largely funded by DoD for artillery calculations, and then the Manhattan project. Companies like HP were very involved in the high tech arms industry.
- mathieuh 2y agoI don't know if their other product lines are better but the software and user experience of their Edge 1040 cycling computer is atrocious. It has every feature you could think of and some you couldn't but I swear it was designed by someone who has never ridden a bike. Even the navigation isn't great. Most of the time when I get to a roundabout it wants me to exit at the first exit, then immediately perform a u-turn, rejoin the roundabout, and take the actual exit. Not even sure what's going wrong here, the same routes on a Wahoo unit work fine. It would put me off buying another Garmin product to be honest.
- philipwhiuk 2y agoThe hardware is great. The software has always been mediocre at best.
- dktp 2y agoAgreed. I have 1040 as well and it serves me super well, largely because of its battery life (1 recharge on 7day bikepacking trip of ~6hr/day usage), consistency (no disconnects with other data points) and very solid gps (multi band enabled, no issues in forests etc) UI takes a lot of time to get used to and even then there are many things I hate
- SirHumphrey 2y agoI have been looking around on a number of separate occasions for reimplementation of Garmin connect. Sadly i haven’t found anything yet. As great as the hardware is the app is frankly atrocious and doesn’t inspire confidence with a company that is storing a lot of very sensitive personal information.
- bobmcnamara 2y agoThere's a form to report map issues. I've seen a missing or backwards graph edge wreak havoc like that before.
- Lio 2y agoI remember using a Garmin Edge 1000 to navigate through a city I don't know. I could see the street I should be on running parallel to where I was but couldn't find the correct turn to take me there. Then the Garmin popped a big modal dialogue over the top of the map to tell me I was on the wrong street. Worse still a few spots of rain meant the screen locked and I couldn't dismiss the modal. I came to the same conclusion, that the UI wasn't designed by some one that rode a bike. I have to say they've got better over time though. I've had a Garmin 530 for a few years and an Epix 2 watch that I like much better. I love that the Epix can be operated with just the buttons.
- fuzzy2 2y agoThe title on HN got mangled. It’s ~$40B (APPROXIMATELY $40B), not minus.
- yccs27 2y agoYeah, from the title I thought they lost $40B in market cap due to the pivot.
- prodent 2y agoSure it's mangled, but it's clearly a dash (–) and not a minus (-).
- aaomidi 2y agoIs this sarcasm
- fuzzy2 2y agoOh, but that is not a minus. That’s a hyphen-minus. A proper minus (−) is almost the same width as an en dash.
- rtkwe 2y agoIt's an en dash which is supposed to denote ranges eg 2013–2024 basically meaning 'to' so it's still incorrect here even if it weren't extremely similar to - or negative and easy to confuse.
- mvdtnz 2y agoI think to 99+% of people that's not "clear".
- NoboruWataya 2y agoInteresting article. My partner bought an Apple watch a couple of years ago and I was shocked at what a poor value proposition it was. Very expensive and wouldn't even hold a charge for a day. I guess you get used to it but having to charge my watch every day would drive me mad. Obviously there are things it will do better than a Garmin (and things it can do that a Garmin simply can't) but overall it didn't make sense to me as a product (or, evidently, to my partner, who now leaves it gathering dust). I do think Garmin have found a really good balance for their devices in being smart but not "too smart". I have had a Vívoactive 3 for years that I am pretty happy with. Good battery life and does all the basic fitness stuff plus some actually useful extras like alerting me to phone notifications, etc. Also interesting is that the phone never just replaced standalone GPS fitness trackers. It's entirely possible to just use your phone to track your run, though obviously there are downsides, like you don't get heart rate tracking and it's a lot bulkier (though I think most people probably run with their phone anyway).
- scarface_74 2y agoWith my Apple Watch, I don’t need my phone when I’m running, swimming or at the gym. I can receive and return texts, make and receive calls and listen to music either stored on the watch or streamed over cellular.
- iechoz6H 2y agoHow do you receive calls without a sim? Or does it have a dedicated sim with a different number to your regular phone?
- anderiv 2y agoApple Watches have their own eSIM and they share a number with your phone.
- scarface_74 2y agoThe Apple Watch has had a cellular option since 2017 with a built in eSIM. There is a separate number as far as billing. But the cellular carrier pairs your cellular watch with an iPhone on the same network. So calls come in and go out as if they were coming from your iPhone’s number. Whenever someone calls your phone - they both ring. If your phone is on and close enough to your watch so they are connected via Bluetooth (or WiFi?), all data and voice communication is relayed through your phone to save battery life. If your watch isn’t connected to your phone, the Watch uses cellular. Roaming support for Apple Watches was just announced in 2022 and is still not ubiquitous
- basedrum 2y agoWay to expensive watches. Full stop
- orphea 2y agoGarmin is expensive? Maybe, but I got my Vivoactive 5 for $190. For a watch that I need to charge every 7-10 days (vs every day like it is for many other brands) it's a good value, imo.
- izzydata 2y agoThere are various models and generations of their watches at every price point. Them having more expensive options doesn't mean they don't have less expensive options as well.
- wkat4242 2y agoThey also provide a lot of EFIS (Electric Flight Information System, or "Glass Cockpit") for small GA aircraft. I think AeroDyne and Honeywell are also in this market but I mainly see Garmin there. Like the G1000 (higher models are available on business jets I think). It's pretty good too, you get a lot of features that were limited to airliners in the past. Like seeing terrain contours around you. Not that I fly IFR (instrument without visibility conditions) but still. I think it's very impressive.
- parthdesai 2y agoMarine instruments/sonars as well
- wil421 2y agoThey make awesome chart plotters and sonar systems for boats. I have a smallish one on my kayak that works very well.
- FL410 2y agoThey have really become the gold standard in avionics, so much so that some airframes are preferred to others due to the fact that they've chosen to integrate a Garmin flight deck instead of Honeywell/Rockwell/etc. They have a very consistent and capable design methodology that extends from single engine piston avionics all the way up through relatively large GA jets.
- joezydeco 2y agoThey've also made advances with their Autoland product, which can take control of a small aircraft and safely land at an airfield while communicating with ATC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmdPZPWZKw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmdPZPWZKw8
- jeffbee 2y agoBut the margins on that business are not exceptional. Operating income on "outdoor" segment of their business, the one that includes the epix and fenix series watches and so forth, is higher than aviation segment.
- mcintyre1994 2y agoI think Garmin is a really good example of a company that benefits from Apple making the market so much bigger. I had an Apple Watch, got into running a lot, and eventually found the Watch too limiting (bad heart rate measurement, touch only UI were my main issues). I probably wouldn't have ended up a Garmin customer if I'd never got an Apple Watch though.
- Breza 2y agoSame here, just replace Apple with Fitbit. I had probably six Fitbits over the years and made the jump to Garmin last year. It's an amazingly better experience.
- rob74 2y agoOf course, the unmentioned elephant in the room here is that Apple watches don't work with Android phones (it's possible to use the "cellular" version with limited features without a phone, but you still need an iPhone to configure it), which means that ~70% of the market are up for grabs...
- salviati 2y agoReading your comment it sounds like Wear OS [0] is not a thing. But it is... So the market for watches paired with non-iOS phones is not empty. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_OS
- rob74 2y agoSure, I didn't say Garmin had no competitors, just that the Apple Watch is limited to 30% of the smartphone market, while Garmin can address (a part of) the remaining 70% plus some of Apple's 30% as well.
- canucker2016 2y agoBut the ~70% isn't in every region, it's an average over all regions. Certain developed countries, Apple iPhone market share is 55%-65% (Norway, USA, Canada, Japan), UK is at 50% and starts dropping down in other Western European countries. South Korea is dominated by Samsung. Even then, Apple's ~55% of the USA market isn't across all age groups - iPhone is a monopoly for teens, 87%, - see https://www.macrumors.com/2023/10/10/iphone-teen-survey-2023/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/10/10/iphone-teen-survey-2023....
- Neywiny 2y agoI think the article brings up a great point about how they pivoted. So many companies start out strong then resort to "the original" to try and get sympathy? Nostalgia? Idk who falls for that or why. Or they sell out to someone that'll gut them. These guys knew that their first success wasn't a GPS locator. It was a PNT device that met an unserved market. In that regard they haven't pivoted at all. I respect that immensely.
- djsjajah 2y agoI think everyone should be reminded that a few years ago Garmin let someone take down their whole network (globally) and then paid the ransom after a few days [1]. In my opinion, the company does not deserve your money. [1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/07/garmans-four-day-service-meltdown-was-caused-by-ransomware/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/07/garma...
- neillyons 2y agoI looked at the Apple watch but choose Garmin as it has a physical button to start and stop my run. I don't know if this is still the case but with the Apple watch I think you have to tap the touch screen. Takes too long, especially when every second counts on a 400m lap round the track :-P
- aldur 2y agoI discovered this recently, but can start/stop by clicking the crown and the side button at the same time.
- tzs 2y agoYou can stop a workout by telling Siri "end workout". I'd expect that you can also start one with Siri but have never actually tried, mainly because the idea of using Siri to start/stop workouts never occurred to me until reading this thread, which I happened to be doing this morning while doing a workout on my treadmill.
- iamacyborg 2y agoHow accurate is that speech detection when you’re trying to hold in being sick after running a spicy interval?
- anshumankmr 2y agoAs a somewhat proud owner of an Apple watch, I end up using my older lo-fi smart watch for long rides I do on cycle (anything 100+) cause its battery lasts just so much more. I bought it when I did not have enough money to shell out for either an Apple Watch and did not even know what a Garmin was, but it does the job reasonably well though its GPS is a bit poor but I did last throughout the 12 hours I did my my BRM in July (a 208KM ride). Garmin is at a bit of risk from these sort of companies cause it costed me 7K INR (its newer variants cost a bit more), there is another brand called Coros which has the same value proposition as Garmin as well, so yeah the good times might not last always. But they have also other interesting set of products like a GPS device for cycles which I don't think anyone else offers yet which gives a lot of advanced metrics like power, cadence apart from speed, time etc but those too cost a bomb and apparently people are being arrested for using it in my country.
- kshahkshah 2y agoI'm in the market for a watch. Turned 41, my weight has slowly crept up despite working out 4-5 times a week - not too bad, like not obese. My cholesterol is bad partially due to genetics but mostly due to diet. I also have a mild sleep apnea, especially when my weight is high. I'm focusing on dropping weight this year and would love to start tracking sleep, recovery, apnea, and any heart issues before/as they happen. I do not want another screen though and though I've looked at the Apple watch multiple times, I've not actually purchased it yet. I don't believe the Garmin tracks apnea signals or heart issues at all unfortunately
- dqv 2y agoIt will alert you if your heart rate goes above a certain limit (that you've set) when you're not exercising. It tracks sleep too, but I don't know about sleep apnea signals. It does track pulse ox, so a low sleep quality report and low pulse ox might indicate sleep apnea? idk
- iamacyborg 2y agoSome models have an ECG monitoring app in some countries. https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/health-science/ecg/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/health-scienc...
- abawany 2y agoone thing my first garmin from 2016 did for me was to make me more active, because its activity nags with minimum-enforced active time ensured that I wouldn't just keep sitting all day. Their newer models track hrv and offer ecg in some models/countries to help with heart health tracking.
- doodlebugging 2y agoI have an older relative who uses their Venu3 to take their own ECG and combine that with a Garmin Index BPM (~$150) to help monitor their heart function. The ECG is simple to use on the watch and the BPM syncs to Garmin Connect so that all that data is stored daily for their cardiac specialist to review when they go in for appointments. They had a diagnosis of A-Fib a while back that explained all their decrease in energy levels and since beginning treatment for it they have had no further issues. Now they have the ability to sit and take an ECG to transmit to their cardiologist if they start feeling bad. For them it provides peace of mind that their meds are working as designed. They regularly get in 5k - 10k steps daily which is pretty great for someone making a strong run at 90 y.o. I don't think Garmin has a device that is able to track or identify sleep anea events but would not be surprised to see that functionality appear in the near future on some product. I have an Instinct 2 Solar and it has been great for me. I told other relatives about it and they have picked their own models to suit their lifestyles. I think that is Garmin's strength, the wide variety of fitness devices suited for almost any activity or personality.
- kubb 2y agoMy Garmin has a flashlight, maps with navigation on device, altimeter, barometer, thermometer, GPS and other satellite navigation systems, it tracks pulse, sleep, etc. It's perfect for hiking and cycling, helps you find the right route, shows the altitude profile, etc. The form factor is perfect, the watch is light and comfortable. I'm still considering getting a next gen Apple Watch Ultra if the specs are good. Having data on the watch plus being able to use certain apps are advantages
- ghaff 2y agoI have an Ultra that I use for hiking. But I mostly don't wear it day to day because of the charging effort.
- StrLght 2y agoMoreover, they have a great variety of other options that look and feel similar to what you already have. So if you want to go further with cycling (and have a budget to do that), you can buy Garmin Edge bike computer. Apple doesn't make this sports ecosystem
- Breza 2y agoGarmin packs an absurd amount of functionality into a watch
- salviati 2y agoSorry to pick on this detail, but I don't understand why TFA uses 2008 as year of Google Maps release. My memory (and Wikipedia) say 2005. I think I figured it out : in October 2009 Google maps introduced turn by turn directions.
- rtkwe 2y agoOne of Garmin's big old (probably still made in small numbers though) product lines were stand alone turn by turn GPS units you'd attach to your windshield or dash so when Google Maps introduced turn by turn that's when it became relevant as a major competitor to that product line and a major threat to Garmin.
- jeffbee 2y agoA lot of people are not aware of the fact that there were mobile apps before the iPhone. First time I used gmaps was on a j2me platform.
- transpute 2y agoGarmin: - sells an accurate blood pressure cuff with WiFi data sync (sans phone) - is an active R&D contributor to OpenEmbedded Linux - includes optional health data sync to vertically integrated cloud - provides open FIT [1] protocol for local data sync [1] https://developer.garmin.com/fit/protocol https://developer.garmin.com/fit/protocol
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rcMgD2BwE72F 2y agoYet I can't use my new Forerunner 55 watch without connecting it to Garmin servers. They make sure it takes about an hour to have a reliable GPS position unless your make it regularly connect to an active Garmin account, either via Garmin Express (dekstop) or Garmin Connect. I switch to GadgetBridge but without updating the AGPS files, no reliable GPS. How open of them.
- superq 2y agoI was seriously looking at their Tactix 7 Pro Ballistics watch. But, yeah, that's a total no-go for me then too.
- canucker2016 2y agoBefore my workout, I'll take my Garmin watch and switch to a workout mode that requires GPS and leave it by a window while the Garmin gets a GPS lock. Go prep for workout. Just before heading out, I'll go by the window and get the watch which has locked on to the nearby GPS satellites. Start workout.
- transpute 2y ago> sure it takes about an hour to have a reliable GPS position Any feedback from Garmin on this issue? It sounds like a bug, unless they have documented a non-technical policy dependency between GPS and cloud login.
- 2y ago
- gausswho 2y agoI picked up an Epix Pro during the holiday sales. Aware that they'd had a data breach, I was dismayed to find there is no way to get the data off it without using an app and that app won't even start without an account. Despite the settings, wouldn't show up as a storage device when connected (on Linux). I noped right out. Reeked of surveillance capitalism. Shame because I did like the hardware. Is there a dumb watch that's got a good enough screen for hiking maps and the ability to SOS without sending Walmart and the NSA my realtime heart rate?
- phicoh 2y agoBy and large Garmin devices can be accessed directly from a Linux system. I have a FR 965 and it connects just fine. But in typical Garmin fashion, there may be a hard to find setting to enable this. My watch asks if I want to connect to a computer when I plug in the cable.
- canucker2016 2y agoThe Epix watches seem to have a setting to switch the watch to Mass Storage USB mode - see https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4197-8CA5-E419B2A55D12/EN-US/GUID-1500E73F-F386-49AF-A542-25D4B1655A08.html https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-E5C62F3F-DCE3-4... Did you change this setting on the watch?
- gausswho 2y agoI did enable that setting. But it still didn't work for me. I remember seeing it was showing up and tried various tools related to MTP but none of them were able to access the files.
- xnorswap 2y agoI found it interesting that they mention Tomtom as being a footnote. In the UK, TomTom was much bigger than Garmin for in-car GPS: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=GB&q=garmin,tomtom&hl=en-GB https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=GB&q=g... It guess they didn't have the same market penetration / dominance in the US market.
- tacker2000 2y agoSame on the continent. They were a dutch company, so i guess they didnt have time to really expand much in the US until they got killed by smartphones.
- Yeul 2y agoTomTom is now an app on smartphones. I still use it I can't stand Google maps and their annoying ads.
- _1tem 2y agoThere's a lesson to be learned here for small bootstrapped SaaS founders. You can still succeed (as a lifestyle business) even when Big Tech has a competing product. Who would pay for email when Gmail is free? And yet FastMail does well. There are many, many, smaller companies that may not be VC-scale, and yet manage to build profitable, sustainable, businesses on top of a good niche product, even when competing against VC funded giants.
- lopis 2y agoMeta: For some reason, HN replaced the tilde in the title of the article with a dash, making it seem like Garmin did a negative 40B pivot, instead of approximately. Why is that?
- jboggan 2y agoGarmin recently entered the ballistic chronograph market with their Xero - it's the closest thing to actual magic I've experienced with a piece of technology. Chronographs are notoriously finicky, since you are trying to accurately measure the speed of a bullet in an uncontrolled environment. Some optical chronos make you shoot through a very narrow window [0] which restricts you to a tiny shooting position and don't work in many natural lighting conditions. Some attach directly to the gun or barrel to allow any shooting position but are very sensitive to offset and distance and can't be fitted to a majority of pistols and rifles to work up load data [1]. Some higher end models get around all of these issues by using radar [2] but the implementation is tricky. The unit is about the size of a laptop, has to have the flat side pointed perfectly downrange, and collects data in a window triggered by a recoil or audio sensor. Practically this makes it unusable at a public range with other shooters in adjacent lanes because you have a lot of gunshots and other projectiles and spall wizzing around at all times creating a mass of false or irrelevant data. The radar units sometimes have Bluetooth connectivity for an app that records data strings and allows you to change sensitivity settings on the radar. The app is terrible and the physical UI on the unit is atrocious as well, and most range sessions devolve into tweaking multiple sensitivity params endlessly in a futile effort to get only your own shots to register, inevitably bumping and misaligning the radar in the process. Which brings me back to Garmin, who somehow managed to release a tiny unit [3] that is the size of a GoPro, has only one settings option (fast or slow projectiles), and simply WORKS. It has a simple and clean UI but the biggest thing is how it somehow picks up all of your shots without the need for an external audio or recoil trigger to start collecting data, and never picks up data from adjacent shooters. I truly don't understand how they managed this because it isn't sensitive to alignment like other units were. As long as it is on your bench or vaguely pointed downrange from near your position it filters out all of the other shots. This wasn't an incremental product improvement either, they somehow launched their first product with superior UI, better form factor, better battery life, superior app integration, impeccable data quality, and better commercial availability than all of the previous solutions. When I show it to other experienced reloaders at the range they literally cannot believe how well it works. The only thing it doesn't compete on is price, which is fine because the reloading/shooting market that needs this unit is fairly well heeled and it still costs less than the combined used prices of all the various chronographs this replaces. Their product team hit this one so far out of the park. 0 - https://www.caldwellshooting.com/range-gear/chronographs-and-wind-meters/ballistic-precision-chronograph/720001.html https://www.caldwellshooting.com/range-gear/chronographs-and... 1 - https://magnetospeed.com/v3-ballistic-chronograph https://magnetospeed.com/v3-ballistic-chronograph 2 - https://mylabradar.com/product/chronograph/ https://mylabradar.com/product/chronograph/ 3 - https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/771164 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/771164
- jcfrei 2y agoI use a Garmin edge 830 for cycling and it feels like one of those devices where software engineers hated every minute developing the GUI for it. I can only imagine that the reason garmin is profitable is because they keep the same cheap hardware and custom OS they developed 10, 20 years ago for generations and just do occasional GUI refreshments. Definitely going to switch to an alternative for my next one.
- jeffbee 2y agoI still use an Edge 130 because its lack of graphics abilities constrains the UI to something reasonable. All I want it to do is throw the time/speed/distance/pulse in my face. In fact if Garmin made an Edge-like product that was only a head unit for a smart watch, didn't have its own gps radios, that would be ideal for me.
- FriedrichN 2y agoI actually really like the fact that my Garmin Instinct is not really a smart watch, it makes connecting it to your phone optional. Mine has never connected to a phone because I don't like to run Google's spyware on my phone. Yet, I can use most of it's functions I care about (time & date, GPS, moon & sun, compass, steps, heart rate, temperature, sports-specific stuff) without giving up my soul to Big Tech.
- sorenjan 2y agoI used to have an Android Wear watch, when it was still called that. I thought it was really cool, a small computer on my wrist, ready to use instantly. I looked for more things I could use it for. But after a while, I noticed that I almost always preferred to take my phone out of the pocket if I needed to interact with anything. So the watch mainly got used for notifications, changing songs, and logging run workouts. My current Garmin can do all that, and the battery lasts a long time so I never have to care about it, and it has buttons. A WearOS watch is slow and unusable with less than 1 GB of RAM, there's something very wrong with that. I worry that Garmin isn't well placed to compete with the new generation smart watches though. Google and Apple can make watches with connected voice assistants and phone calls. Garmin uses their own OS on hardware an order of magnitude less powerful. That's their strength and weakness, and it will be interesting to see what the market chooses. My next watch will also be a Garmin, I don't need or want a wrist computer, but I can see why others would want that.
- Mistletoe 2y agoI’ve wanted a Garmin for running but they are so expensive. I just buy a cheap old version of the Apple Watch for $30 on eBay and it works great. The crappy battery life doesn’t matter because the maximum length of my run is 1.5 hours.
- fifilura 2y agoTo be honest, that watch line-up with dozens of watches looks a bit like Nokia in 2007. I have no deeper analysis than that, other than that I remember how proud they were to be able to launch 2 phones per month. I am a Garmin user myself, but i have a basic $150 ForeRunner 45. I love it and use it every day, because it has all the features and no touch screen.
- rtkwe 2y agoThe title here on HN looks more like "negative $40B pivot" than the real "approximately $40B pivot", which was a fun whiplash. I was wondering was their original car GPS market really that profitable?!
- lenerdenator 2y agoSo, let's review: 1) build headquarters in (relatively) low COL city - in this case, Olathe KS, which is a suburb of Kansas City MO. 2) Have people who actually want to make a product instead of making analysts happy 3) Invest in R&D 4) Bring manufacturing in-house and tightly control processes It's like everything the people actually doing the work at tech companies have been saying for years. Can I have my $10mil/year pay package now?
- y-c-o-m-b 2y agoThey have some postings for jobs that I might actually enjoy working on also. Too bad they don't offer remote roles.
- lenerdenator 2y agoFor what it's worth, everything's up-to-date in Kansas City.
- petee 2y agoWe'll have to see over the next couple years how this pans out; early in 2024 they changed their Connect app to be significantly less usable, angering their core use base with many vowing to move to competitors. While some is handwaving, others are definitely not coming back due to how Garmin has handled it. The Connect app was a big part of their watches' popularity. For what its worth they managed to lose 0.4 of their Play store rating down from 4.5 in short order, and thats based on 1M+ reviews, so not an insignificant number
- nice_scott 2y agoI recently got into using the connect app. What were some notable changes that made the app less usable and upset their core user base?
- petee 2y agoAnother user said they may have since improved the changes, so I'll have to check it out again. But originally the main interface was a list-style of recent or relevant stats shown, clicking would bring you to more in-depth stats. Most of the time all you needed was the main screen. They swapped that out for a grid of small widgets that showed less data, and you could only choose a few. Clicking would bring you to a stats screen but with less info than before, and often requiring clicking even deeper to find common items. So lack of customization, and lots of deep-navigation. Garmin's initial action was silence, eventually they said to get over it its not going back. Apparently it got poor feedback in Beta too, so this was just a change they decided chug through with despite a very large outcry on their forums.
- fudged71 2y agoI was expecting to see a mention of Garmin acquiring Dynastream Innovations, inventor of the ultra-low power (ULP) technology ANT Wireless protocol
- DebtDeflation 2y agoI do a lot of deep wilderness hiking. I have two Garmin products - an InReach Mini 2 and a Fenix 6X watch. There are a couple of big benefits over the Apple/Android ecosystem. 1) Battery life. 21 days (more with the newer models). 2) No dependence on cellular/wifi data availability (though they have been doing their damnedest to require it for syncing you watch to your Connect app). I'd love to see them merge the functionality of the two devices (provide satellite messaging direct from the watch). I have zero desire for some of the other stuff they've added (music player, payments, etc.), they're just battery drains.
- jimt1234 2y agoI had an InReach for years, mostly just for the satellite messaging. I tried this feature recently out on the trail with my iPhone and it worked great. So, I got rid of my InReach, and now my iPhone and AllTrails subscription is all I need. Battery life hasn't been an issue for me on the trail - I usually just turn off my iPhone when I'm not using it.
- spchampion2 2y agoI have a Garmin Descent Mk2i which I use for scuba diving, and it's a fabulous all-purpose fitness and adventure watch. I've used to for hundreds of dives, navigation on multiple backpacking trips, cycling, and tons of other stuff. I even wear it daily, and it nicely supports notifications from my phone. When Garmin originally launched a scuba watch, I was kind of surprised. It's a small market, and there were a lot of established "good enough" players in the space. Everyone already had a dive computer. Who would want an expensive one from Garmin when they could buy an expensive one from Shearwater? But Garmin showed up with a good product, iterated by adding their sonar based SubWave for air integration, and eventually took a lot of marketshare by including fitness and smartwatch features the competitors lacked. Now I see tons of Garmins on dive boats. People love them.
- malfist 2y agoMan, I wanted to get the garmin dive computer so bad. It's got so many awesome features, it's just priced out of my budget. Wound up going with the peregrine from shearwater, which was about half the price, but does way less than the garmin. Another place they shine is for bikes. Their radar system that integrates with a bike computer is absolutely groundbreaking. It's so fantastic to be able to know when a car is coming up behind you without having to turn your head and possibly lose balance, it's such a great safety feature.
- nradov 2y agoI have one of those as well and it's generally a good device but it has a few weird software defects which make me wonder whether Garmin employees do any real diving? Like in the Multi-Gas activity profile it will automatically prompt you to switch gases based on calculated PO2, but the message covers the entire screen so you can't see your depth! And there's no way to disable those alerts.
- regus 2y agoI have a soft spot in my heart for Garmin. I am one of the few people left that still use Garmin's car GPS. I currently use the latest model, the Drive Smart 66. It is my daily driver (lol?). I recently went on a cross country road trip and this thing worked perfectly even when I was in the middle of the desert or driving through a canyon. It was nice to not rely on cell phone service for navigation on this trip. Although the question often comes up: why not just use your phone? There are pros and cons for sure. -------- Pros: - You don't need a cellular connection for map data. -- Counter Point: You can download map data on google maps. True, but it is something extra that you need to remember to do. - You don't need to waste your cellular data -- Counter Point: Don't most people have unlimited plans these days? - A corporation isn't tracking your every move -- Counter Point: Most people don't seem to care about this. - Modern Garmin GPSs can get traffic data -- Counter Point: It requires a cellphone and it is not going to be as good as google maps - Modern GPS screens look just as good as a phone and you can get one that is as large as a tablet -- Counter Point: you could probably use a tablet and google maps - Garmin makes GPS units for specific vehicles like motorcycles and RVs and they take their vehicles quirks into account when routing trips. Google maps is one size fits all - A Garmin GPS unit from 20 years ago will still work today as long as you can update the maps. - Because of the previous point, it is very nice to keep one of these in the trunk of your car as a back up - Garmin GPSes can handle sitting in the hot sun without overheating, which some cell phones are prone to do. - I really like having the GPS on my dashboard so I don't have to look down and to the right to look at my car's infotainment screen -- Counter Point: You can mount a phone on your dashboard or windshield. They even sell stand alone monitors for your car where you can view apple car play as it was a stand alone gps. Neutral - The routing can make weird mistakes, but this is true for all GPSes including apple maps and google maps Cons - And this is the biggest: it is nowhere near as good at finding businesses as google maps. To me that is google map's killer feature
- rufus_foreman 2y ago>> Modern Garmin GPSs can get traffic data -- Counter Point: It requires a cellphone and it is not going to be as good as google maps They make versions that get the traffic data over FM radio, you don't need a phone with those. For example https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1240929 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1240929.
- world2vec 2y agoSlightly offtopic but my girlfriend's smartwatch is falling apart and can't stand it anymore. Her birthday is coming soon and was thinking about a Garmin smartwatch. She runs a lot, gym almost everyday. Loves tracking fitness data and workouts but she's petite. Anyone with good recs on what to check?
- JanisErdmanis 2y agoHave also a look on Garmin 7s
- StrLght 2y agoForerunner-series sounds like a perfect fit, take a look at Forerunner 265
- tw04 2y agoDepends on what your budget is, if there's any additional features she wants, and how frequently she's OK charging it. Basically every Garmin watch will cover those initial use cases.
- asleepawake 2y agoforerunner 265 - I've used it for running triathlons and marathons and have had no issues. Garmin has great automated training plans where you can upload various races you're preparing for and Garmin will schedule your runs so that you can meet your time goals. Also highly recommend the vibrating metronome feature to improve your cadence. This feature has dramatically reduced the number of injuries I get. I don't use it to track gym workouts (e.g. lifting). There is a feature for that but I haven't tried it. If you want to really nerd out on your running the HRM Pro Plus provides amazing running dynamics information which again is very helpful for improving running form and reducing injuries. For women you may want to look at the forerunner 265S which is identical to the forerunner 265 but is slightly smaller. The HRM-fit I believe gives the same data as the HRM Pro Plus but is designed to fit under a sports bra
- disqard 2y agoI'm using a Garmin Forerunner 55 -- it has a 2-week battery life, and is great for regular running.
- exabrial 2y ago> But huge R&D investment helped turn the company from an automotive GPS firm to a leader in fitness watches and trackers. My understanding is the meat and potatoes at Garmin is Aircraft and marine flight instrumentation. Both require an unbelievable amount of [actual] engineering and proof testing, and subsequent certification. The Automotive GPS was a lucrative market for a brief time, but a pretty big misunderstanding of what the company does at its core. Fitness trackers was always a market opportunity, and they happen to be really good at it (I've yet to ever run out of battery life on my Garmin Epix Gen2, even after a 5 day expedition using all features and no charging, and using the built-in flashlight at night). They're also pretty ubiquitous in the Bike Computer space.
- izzydata 2y agoI think you are correct here. There seems to be a misunderstanding that Garmin's primary industry was automotive navigation devices due to that brief moment in time. Well before Garmin made automotive devices they were a Avionics and Marine equipment company. They didn't shift away from automotive GPS as much as they continued on their original path of R&D into all things GPS.
- froh 2y agoThe article further down has a diagram (and a reference to the source the Economist) which shows how automotive was 70% of their revenue in 2008 and how outdoor and fitness is ~50% today. they may be highly profitable in aviation and marine and they may develop there first. is that what you mean by core? because revenue-wise the core was automotive in the beginning and now is outdoors and fitness.
- yurlungur 2y agoI used to own one Garmin GPS and replaced it with my cellphone plus a mount. Updating the map was a major pain point. Now I'm really pleasantly surprised at how good the descent mk3 is which I wear all day and there's also inreach etc. Garmin products are really safe buys when it comes to fitness devices. Other smart watches suffer mostly from the software side whereas Garmin connect syncs well and has good UX.
- giancarlostoro 2y agoI developed a proof of concept for a Garmin Watch (I forget which model, this was 6 years ago roughly), and it was interesting, they have their own programming language called MonkeyC, it wasn't complicated to get into, and I had a demo in under a week or two. I based my code off existing sample code, and made it do what was needed for demo purposes. Personally I have owned a Fitbit Ionic, and now an Apple Watch. I'm not sure if I'll ever take the plunge towards a Garmin watch, I mainly enjoy the benefits of the Apple Watch integrating into my iPhone nicely (notifications and GPS nudging come to mind).
- Ataraxic 2y agoI'm really glad Garmin exists and makes smartwatches. The broad approach they have to market segments has created really great products that serve markets other large tech manufacturers haven't really touched. I'm sure the Apple watch is a good product but I'm uninterested in a general notification device (what I take to be the function of a smartwatch). I've used my farming for hiking, paragliding, tracking sleep, connecting to my bike trainer, etc. It tracks all my activities and is my dedicated device for anything athletic. The athletic features, good battery life, and sleep tracking have made it so that I actually wear a watch all the time. Spent $700 4 years ago and it was totally worth it. Perhaps the only caveat for Garmin is that I don't need to upgrade. It does everything I want it to without issue.
- jwhiles 2y agoThe title made me think this was about a 'negative 40B pivot', when it actually means an 'approximately 40B pivot'. Does hacker news not support Tildes or what?
- qznc 2y agoA nice story similar to Nokia/Kodak/Netscape but with a happy ending.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago> nice story similar to Nokia/Kodak/Netscape Kodak in particular killed its novel R&D to protect its cash cow, instead of investing in R&D. So pretty much the opposite of Garmin.
- dcchambers 2y agoLove my Forerunner. I have zero interest in general-purpose smart watches but for Marathon training a fitness watch that I only use for tracking runs and workouts is a godsend.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 2y agoKinda hate mine, now. My Forerunner 55 can't find a good GSP fix in less than one hour, even in wide open skies. And I've returned it so they sent me a new one, which has the exact same problem. The reason is that they want me to regularly connect the watch to their app/software (which requires an account) to update AGPS files. And there's no workaround. I'd just like to be able to use the watch I bought, without having it connect it to Garmin servers every now and then. Why isn't it possible?
- eduction 2y agoI felt personally trolled when he said Google Maps launched after the iPhone lol. If you’re not old like me, know that Google Maps launched in 2005 a couple years before the iPhone. It launched on the web and was lauded for its pioneering degree of interactivity (aided by then-new technology “AJAX”). Presumably he means Google Maps app for the iPhone/Android.
- RandallBrown 2y agoThe original iPhone's maps app was Google Maps.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- carabiner 2y agoMeanwhile the Garmin UX is godawful with watch faces that crash and a deep forest of menus that requires you to push through mountains of youtube videos to understand. There are 2-4 ways to perform any function. Entire menu screens might be useless, but you can't delete any. The day Apple improves the Apple Watch Ultra battery life is the day I switch from Fenix and never look back.
- bwanab 2y agoOne has to wonder about this kind of turnaround that happened simultaneously with Blackberry's corporate implosion which were mostly due to the same exogenous factors.
- its_down_again 2y agoI love my garmin, it just feels like the perfect fit for me. I have zero interest in the Apple Watch, mainly because I don’t want yet another device bombarding me with notifications. Plus, the Apple Watch just doesn’t seem like something I’d be comfortable getting sweaty and slathered in sunscreen every day. The rubber and somewhat industrial design of the Garmin feels like it's just made for running, not for juggling texts or emails mid-workout. I first started tracking my runs with apple health, basically carrying my phone in my pocket to measure distance. Back then, I had no weekly mileage targets, or pace goals. Just a curiosity about how far I could run. Eventually, I switched to Strava. I felt a bit of friction around starting and stopping runs on the app, but I loved watching my paces gradually improve month by month. Eventually I signed up for my first marathon, taking my iPhone in my pocket and first gen airpods that ran out of battery halfway through, but I finished in 3:48. I stuck with the iPhone for a while, but one day I zoomed into the strava map and realized the iPhone’s GPS was unreliable—it added zigzags to my routes, inflating my mileage and making me seem faster than I really was (massive ego bruise). So I went to research accurate GPS watches, and I remember seeing people test them by running straight lines to check for accuracy on a map. The forerunner was the most satisfying straight on the map, and so I bought that in May 2020. So I’ve had a garmin since May 2020 and still love it. The simple start/stop mechanism has become a ritual for me. I also appreciate the heart rate screen, which shows my zone using colored ranges—it’s what I used to pace myself during races. For example, I’d aim to stay under 160 bpm during half marathons and marathons. With the Forerunner, I brought my time down to 3:11 for the marathon and 1:24 for the half marathon. That’s when I hit an inflection point: I couldn’t improve further without serious training plans. I tried using Garmin Coach but made the mistake of choosing plans slightly below my fitness level. As a result, I didn’t run enough hard workouts and plateaued. After that, I lost motivation and took a break from running and lost fitness-- my old 130BPM pace became my new 160BPM pace. When I returned, I spent a year trying to regain it. I watched countless YouTube videos and read Reddit threads claiming, "every amateur runs too fast and too few miles." So I focused on high mileage without prioritizing aerobic envelope workouts. My fitness stagnated—my half marathon slowed to 1:27, and my 5K and 10K times didn’t improve. I also psyched myself by overshooting mileage targets, leaving me either sick or over-fatigued on race days. Eventually, I gave myself permission to run hard again, and my fitness returned. I worked my way back to a 3:02 marathon last year. Now my favorite workflow involves using the VDOT app as my personal coach. I set a weekly mileage target, specify which days I can handle hard workouts, and it generates a detailed plan for me. For example: warm up for 2 miles, run 400m at a target pace of 5:40 with 1-minute rests, and cool down for 2 miles. The garmin integrates as what I call my "buzz coach" through each stage of the workout. Too fast? Buzz. Too slow? Buzz. Next lap? Buzz. The alerts really help with making real-time adjustments. Overall I find this setup eliminates the decision fatigue of training. I used to obsess over pacing, distance goals, and analyzing every bit of my data. Now it feels like I'm just getting outside, running a lot, and having fun with it—and ironically, I've just started improving again.
- flanbiscuit 2y agoI just got my first Garmin Watch (Venu 3) in December for Xmas. So far I'm enjoying it. I'm happy to see the company knows how to survive because my last few smart watches didn't fare so well, not exactly from market changes, but from acquisitions. I had the original Pebble and Pebble 2. Loved them. Then one day Pebble was just shut down because of an acquisition by Fibit[1]. There was a group of people that started Rebble[2] to restore web services and support the watch but I was not interested so I switched over to Fitbit. I had the Fitbit Versa 2 and Versa 3 watches and for a while they were great. Then Google bought Fitbit[3]. The impending "Killed by Google" was always in the back of mind, especially since they already sold smart watches. But I have been on Pixel phones for a while now and I thought maybe Google buying them would lead to good things. At first not much changed, but eventually I started having issues with the watch (more info about that below) and I got fed up with it and now I have a Garmin Watch. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_(watch)#Closing_of_Pebble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_(watch)#Closing_of_Pebb... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_(watch)#Rebble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_(watch)#Rebble [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitbit#Google's_acquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitbit#Google's_acquisition The issues I was having with my Versa 3: Daily I would notice I had missed a sms notification and realize that my watch was disconnected from my phone. I had to go in and manually reconnect it. I also had issues using the voice command feature. I used to be able to use my Google Assistant through the watch, but at some point it just said "check bluetooth connection", even after confirming that connection. So sometime last year I decided to see if a factory reset would work. I did that and did the whole setup process again which included upgrading to the latest firmware. This did not fix the issue and it came with the added bonus of completely disabling my sleep tracking. I think I was grandfathered in because sleep tracking became a premium service that I was getting for free but doing the reset lost that. So now I was out of sleep tracking, voice commands to any assistant, and a stable connection.
- cadamsdotcom 2y agoThe ecosystem around these devices is amazing. The data is openly available in ideal formats for sharing. When your workout syncs from your watch to the Garmin app, Garmin ships it to a whole bunch of other places - a whole data pipeline kicks off across the Internet at no cost to you. If only more of the software world would settle into this type of equilibrium, instead of the competitive data hoarding we see from so many other companies, it’d be a far better world for consumers and competition. Garmin’s business model doesn’t depend on hoarding data. Hope it stays that way!
- froginspector 2y agoI wonder what percentage of their current sales are their inReach satellite phone. It seems like almost every hiker has one.
- deepsun 2y agoArticle doesn't talk about a very important point -- hold of the market. I say that Garmin is first and foremost aviation and maritime company, being pretty monopolistic there. E.g. Garmin G1000 for small airplanes costs around $30k, and G5000 for private jets -- around $500,000. And the most important -- no one there ever talks about alternatives. Except for non-certified experimental tools -- Garmin is pretty much the only game in town. So I believe they operate as aviation/maritime company first, while all the consumer devices like watches/outdoor trackers are like a side-business for them. Yes, that side business happens to bring in more money than the main business, but they wisely don't rely on it.
- mbirth 2y agoMy biggest gripe with Garmin is how they started to become a new NOKIA - at least in the smartwatch market. 10 years ago, they had a hand full of different models with clearly distinguished features. And there was one does-it-all model. Now, they’re releasing 20 different watches a year which are all clearly based on the same hardware - just with different features enabled via software. There’s no top-of-the-line model anymore that has ALL the features. And while I was able to turn my Fenix 5 Plus into a D2 Delta via a simple firmware patch, they’re now using encrypted firmwares in all newer models. I.e. they’ve wasted lots of development hours on implementing encryption instead of fixing some of the various bugs reported in their forums or implementing some of the feature requests. And don’t get me started on their nav units. They’re using maps from HERE. And after fixing mapping errors yourself in HERE’s MapCreator, it takes AT LEAST a year until they finally show up on a device. If you’re lucky. Also, my motorbike unit’s manual explained a feature where it would warn you of upcoming bad weather. However, this feature never materialised and newer manuals don’t mention it anymore.