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Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will c

• wa_wa_wi_wa 2y ago
  > of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context LOL
• wk_end 2y ago
  > I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire. Trump just wanted a deal - he loves being the "deal guy". Frankly, I'm shocked he didn't push Bibi into waiting until after the inauguration. Guess he felt like it was close enough that he could still take credit for it.
  • dmix 2y ago
    > Frankly, I'm shocked he didn't push Bibi into waiting until after the inauguration If you read between the lines it was clear Biden was also pushing hard to wrap it up before his term ends to add it to his legacy (that's how NYT spun it at least). But Trump also had his people negotiating there as well and enough of add a hard-line persuasive influence to force Bibi to show up in Doha last-minute on a weekend during Sabbath [1]. While Biden really didn't seem to have much influence there in the last yr. But ultimately they both get to take credit. The cease-fire ending will eventually need a conclusion during Trumps term as well. [1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-salty-envoy-may-forced-154940428.html?guccounter=1 https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-salty-envoy-may-forced-1549...
    • nl 2y ago
      This is the most accurate summary in this thread (although note that the NYT is now also crediting the Trump team for the pressure on Bibi)
  • kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    > Guess he felt like it was close enough that he could still take credit for it. He's a private citizen. It isn't legal for him to engage in foreign diplomacy. Conveniently we have a feckless DoJ that won't hold people accountable.
  • jhanschoo 2y ago
    Perhaps it speaks to Biden's administration and its interest in the conflict that Trump can achieve this now where Biden couldn't a couple months ago.
• pydry 2y ago
  Trump and Netanyahu famously had beef: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-59571713 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-59571713 Trump's a die hard Israel supporter but I think personally he feels disgust for Netanyahu, for reasons that arent too clear. (As we all should - Netanyahu is a deeply racist genocidal maniac who cynically used this conflict to try and save his own political career)
  • daveguy 2y ago
    > Netanyahu is a deeply racist genocidal maniac who cynically used this conflict to try and save his own political career. What makes you think this causes Trump to think lesser of Netanyahu? Seems like the kind of person Trump fawns over as being "tough". Oh, and like a sibling pointed out -- Trump wasn't mad at Netanyahu for being a racist, opportunistic genocidal maniac. He was mad that Netanyahu was the first to congratulate Biden on his election victory in 2020.
    • pydry 2y ago
      Read again. I said that the reasons arent too clear. I dont doubt that Netanyahu wounded Trump's ego somehow, I just dont automatically believe a story that looks suspiciously like a plant.
  • vFunct 2y ago
    Trump was mad at Netanyahu for being the first to congratulate Biden on winning in 2020.
• vFunct 2y ago
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  • gruez 2y ago
    >due to literal IDF agents running newsrooms across the country source? >Polls showing people now recognizing Israel are the bad guys and Hamas are the guys Are you missing a word here? Or is this intentional?
    • vFunct 2y ago
      The NYTimes widely referenced but debunked story “Screams without words” about alleged rapes on October 7 was co-authored by a literal IDF intelligence agent. Also the Atlantic Editor-in-Chief is IDF. More importantly, why are there so few Muslim newsroom editors and reporters jn the US media vs Jewish editors and reporters? Polls immediately after Oct 7 showed college students support Hamas more than Israel, and that’s before a year of live-streamed genocide. (Fixed missing word)
      • techdragon 2y ago
        [flagged]
      • gruez 2y ago
        >The NYTimes widely referenced but debunked story “Screams without words” about alleged rapes on October 7 was co-authored by a literal IDF intelligence agent. Are you talking about Anat Schwartz? Based on her wikipedia article she served in the "Israeli Air Force intelligence division" at some point, but not when she wrote the article. I guess this technically counts as "literal IDF intelligence agent", but is at least somewhat misleading. You wouldn't call American journalist in his 40s "a Marine", just because he did a tour of duty in his 20s. > Also the Atlantic Editor-in-Chief is IDF. Same issue as above. >Polls immediately after Oct 7 showed college students support Hamas more than Israel, and that’s before a year of live-streamed genocide This isn't the same as "Hamas are the good guys". Specifically, not every conflict must have a "good guy" and a "bad guy". I don't support US's invasion of Iraq, but that doesn't make Saddam Hussein the good guy. Likewise, me thinking Saddam Hussein is a tyrant doesn't make the US the good guy for invading Iraq.
• propagandist 2y ago
  Trump wanted the war to end, and I'm sure Netanyahu was doing his Netanyahu thing. Posting that video was Trump's way of telling Netanyahu that he will burn him by turning him into public enemy #1 with his base. That's how he got him to agree.
  • threeseed 2y ago
    This makes no sense. Netanyahu destroyed his reputation within the Democratic base and it did not concern him in the slightest. Because Israel stopped truly needing the approval of the US a long time ago. And so the idea that he is suddenly worried about what the Trump base thinks has no basis in fact. Especially when the Trump base is not 1-1 with the Republican base i.e. the majority of the Congress still supports Israel.
    • rcpt 2y ago
      Israeli massively support Trump over Harris https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-favor-trump-over-harris-in-us-election/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-...
      • threeseed 2y ago
        It's irrelevant. Netanyahu isn't letting domestic opinion polls concern him let alone the Trump base.
    • HDThoreaun 2y ago
      Utterly wrong. Netanyahu’s base loves Trump. They believe Dems are out to get them and would like to cut aid to Israel. Netanyahu absolutely can not get on trumps bad side because his base would eviscerate him.
    • caycep 2y ago
      Also shows that Israeli electorate/Jewish diaspora now likely a distinct/separate entity from US Jewish population...drifting apart since at least 2008 if not earlier.
• maxerickson 2y ago
  One not particularly obscure theory is that Netanyahu was prioritizing Trump coming to power over a peace/hostage deal and now that Trump has power, Netanyahu seeks to benefit from prioritizing the hostages. Trump is claiming credit for it and probably doesn't care about the timing.
  • dmix 2y ago
    Netanyahu was simply pushing his opportunity to do what Israel hardliners have wanted to do for as long as possible (basically aggressively lash out in every direction without consequences and red lines). It was always going to need to be wrapped up, even within Israel there was strong internal pressure. Waiting until is Trump is coming in gives Israel a free golden ticket with him by timing it right and Netanyahu's careers basically over after this anyway, so he has nothing to lose by doing it earlier, absent internal revolt.
  • selcuka 2y ago
    Not obscure at all, as it wouldn't be the first time a hostage situation is used for a presidential campaign [1]: > The timing of the release of the hostages gave rise to allegations that representatives of Reagan's presidential campaign had conspired with Iran to delay the release until after the 1980 United States presidential election to thwart Carter from pulling off an "October surprise". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis#October_Surprise_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis#October_Su...
    • gunian 2y ago
      The playbook does seems more and more similar everyday but I'm curious why the other side hasn't figured out how to counter it
      • kevingadd 2y ago
        At times it seems as if the other side hasn't figured out how to do much of anything, or alternately, they've forgotten as they steadily get older and older without passing the reins of power off to younger generations.
• deleted 2y ago
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• pcthrowaway 2y ago
  OK since no one else has said it yet, "according to a source familiar with the details"[1] (I know) Trump has basically told Netanyahu to agree to the ceasefire including the return of hostages. Then if they decide to break the ceasefire and go back to relentless bombings, Trump will still continue to support them. So it could be a tactic to get Hamas to release whatever hostages are still alive, then get right back to the new status quo. This actually makes perfect sense for Trump. He's only claimed to care about the Israeli hostages. I'm sure he feels great about taking credit for their return. [1]: https://trendsinthenews.substack.com/p/gerald-celente-on-gaza-ceasefire https://trendsinthenews.substack.com/p/gerald-celente-on-gaz...
  • techdragon 2y ago
    Sadly I suspect this will be the case… I don’t hold much hope on this whole thing actually ending… but I do have a glimmer of hope that they may have reached a tipping point due to one of the many slowly shifting parts of this tragedy… no idea what the tipping point is from the outside but it does kinda have the vibe of “maybe this is going to fall apart if they keep pushing”
  • whycome 2y ago
    Wouldn't trumps best course of action have been to wait two weeks and make it seem like it was all because of him?
    • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Wouldn't trumps best course of action have been to wait two weeks and make it seem like it was all because of him? No. He's getting the credit now. And he got it while maneuvering risk free.
  • bushbaba 2y ago
    Hamas broke the last ceasefire. Israel doesn’t need to do anything as it’s expected there will be a Hamas offshoot group who launches a rocket into Israeli civilian areas thus restarting the need for Israel to defend itself.
  • 2y ago
• threeseed 2y ago
  > ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire There is no evidence of this. Every single time Trump has blustered about doing something e.g. turning Canada into a 51st, buying Greenland the parties have been concerned but not particularly worried. Because he doesn't follow through. So the idea that we should credit Trump for his words and ignore the months of diplomacy and pressure from not just the US but Middle Eastern countries is bizarre to me. Ceasefires are always far more complex and nuanced than they look from the outside.
  • xg15 2y ago
    I got it from here: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-13/ty-article/.premium/trumps-mideast-envoy-forced-netanyahu-to-accept-a-gaza-plan-he-repeatedly-rejected/00000194-615c-d4d0-a1f4-fbfdce850000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-13/ty-article/.p...
  • tucnak 2y ago
    Diplomacy is a lie, there's only military intelligence.
  • g19205 2y ago
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-official-trump-envoy-swayed-netanyahu-more-in-one-meeting-than-biden-did-all-year/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-official-trump-envoy-sway...
    • ARandomerDude 2y ago
      Something positive about Trump? Must be "Russian disinformation" or whatever we're saying these days...
    • Nimitz14 2y ago
      Pretty obv a gift from the bibi admin
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • 2y ago
• caycep 2y ago
  Multiple sources are crediting months of work by Brett McGurk as the lead in this. This is Biden admin accomplishment.
  • Mizza 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • rvz 2y ago
      The comment above you by 'caycep' couldn't give any evidence to credit Biden for this. Hopefully you have evidence of those Israeli sources supporting your claim. But I don't know why on this website, many here are cheering for this as a "success" under Biden as this war happened under his presidency (and also the Russian-Ukraine war) and he failed to get the first ceasefire deal reached and it was only until he and Harris both lost the election a deal was reached, which should have been earlier preventing an excessive amount of civilians killed in this war. This deal would not have happened if Biden or Harris won the election.
  • Timber-6539 2y ago
    Biden's accomplishment is sending bombs to the IDF to aid Palestinian genocide.
• boringg 2y ago
  While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.
  • spoonfeeder006 2y ago
    But if it is in fact more humane than in the past (hard to imagine TBH), hopefully that trend of gradual improvement will continue?
    • boringg 2y ago
      They literally razed Bablyon to the ground including the entire population after over 15 months being under siege and afterwards trying to change the lands hydrology so that people couldn't resettle - probably one of the harshest destruction but not the only one. I guess its an improvement - not one thats remotely impressive.
      • growthwtf 2y ago
        Are you being metaphorical when you say literally? Or is this a reference to the conquest by Cyrus the Great? I'm not trying to be pedantic here. I'm just not familiar with any historical event you are describing. From what I've heard, and I'm not an expert, I wouldn't characterize any of the conquests of Babylon as a 'razing', And the eventual abandonment of the city was more a result of slow decline and changing geological conditions. I do like to learn about the history of the area, so if it's just something I'm not familiar with, please point me in the right direction.
        • mikestew 2y ago
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Babylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Babylon
• deleted 2y ago
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• ausidbcidhsb 2y ago
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• alex1138 2y ago
  Yeah, sure, it's all Israel's fault, after the 1200 people slaughtered on October 7
  • ceejayoz 2y ago
    There was, at the very least, a massive intelligence failure. Responding by killing tens of thousands of civilians is on them a bit, too.
    • alex1138 2y ago
      It depends on if you believe Hamas's numbers, which is dubious
      • ceejayoz 2y ago
        No one doubts Hamas’s numbers. Israel doesn’t really contest them and they’ve been accurate in the past. https://www.vice.com/en/article/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/israeli-intelligence-health-... > Israeli intelligence services have studied civilian casualty figures released by the Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza and concluded the figures were generally accurate, despite earlier public claims by U.S. and Israeli officials that the ministry’s statistics are manipulated. Looking at photos of the area makes it pretty clear, too. You don’t raze that many buildings bloodlessly. If anything, it may be an undercount. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna187100 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna187100
        • klipt 2y ago
          > No one doubts Hamas’s numbers Hamas hasn't admitted to a single combatant dying. Is that realistic?
          • ceejayoz 2y ago
            But that’s not true. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-leader-yahya-sinwar-killed-2024-10-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-leader-... edit: Even Israel’s own estimates are 2/3 civilian deaths. https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-milit...
• Der_Einzige 2y ago
  Trump needed some way to counter the "Zion Don" counter-programming that 4chan tried and failed to get into the hearts of the anti-zionists that have become the norm among Zoomers. That's why he acts like this.
• realusername 2y ago
  > Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. Don't hold your breath, Isreal already announced a ceasefire in Lebanon in the past and didn't respect it.
• rzk 2y ago
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  • eastbound 2y ago
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    • yamrzou 2y ago
      Like.. armed babies? https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1879651451447996814 https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1879651451447996814
    • hmcq6 2y ago
      "Fair" is a funny word to choose. One side is fighting with salvaged weapons and the other has the backing of the strongest militaries in the world. One side isn't allowed air support. One side isn't allowed food, water or even concrete. One side isn't even allowed to flee. So "fair" is not the word I would use. "Moral" isn't one I would use either given that Israel does not have the right as a belligerent occupier to retaliate. Also I have to ask, all the babies that died, did they also promise Israel's death? Were the babies armed?
      • jraby3 2y ago
        The side that isn't allowed concrete built the biggest tunnel system in the world. Instead of building schools, libraries, hospitals they chose to build a terror tunnel system larger than the British Underground. There is plenty of food if you actually look at the trucks of food waiting to be distributed. The side that is fighting without food is doing that because their food is being stolen and used to recruit more terrorists.
      • Jiro 2y ago
        The people deliberately hiding behind the babies were armed.
        • hmcq6 2y ago
• ashoeafoot 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • kevingadd 2y ago
    Look I get that you're annoyed by the GP post's simplification but you are currently arguing that the women and children living in a hellscape deserve it. The typos in your post make it clear to me that there's a lot of emotion behind it, so I'd advise you to take it slow and be more measured.
  • colechristensen 2y ago
    One of the major problems is that across the Arab world it is politically useful for internal politics for there not to be peace between Israel and Palestine. It is a very “good” issue for politicians/kings to have an enemy, a struggle for their peoples to be passionate about. Everything that’s being done by the Arab neighbor governments is calculated for their own political benefit. They don’t want peace or a solution because that would deprive them of something that keeps them in power. So those who would be terrorists are funded and encouraged, the fight is promoted, and the Palestinian people are manipulated into greater belligerency instead of a peaceful equitable resolution.
    • Cyph0n 2y ago
      Uhh what are you talking about? Egypt & Jordan signed peace treaties last century. And did you somehow miss out on the (still ongoing) Abraham Accords? It’s in fact the complete opposite: Arab rulers and kings want their people to forget about Palestine.
      • ashoeafoot 2y ago
        [flagged]
      • bawolff 2y ago
        I think you could argue that the political reality has changed a lot over the last 50 years. Having Israel & Palestine fighting was much more useful to surrounding arab states in the early cold war than it is now. In modern times it is very useful to Iran but not so much US-aligned Arab states who want the trade benefits and are allied with the same people Israel is allied with.
• bushbaba 2y ago
  Never mind that Hamas will STILL have hostages after the deal is done. That Gaza is ruled by an organization stating they’ll continue doing an Oct 7th again and again. It takes both sides to agree to a better future.
  • hedora 2y ago
    How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care for them any more. That’s 10 orphaned kids for every Israel civilian casualty in the middle of a famine with no support infrastructure.
    • jraby3 2y ago
      It could be made more fair if all the hostages were released. Why would international society accept hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, raped and murdered for over a year as acceptable? Israel actually built a lot of the civilian infrastructure, including the largest hospital in Gaza. It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. Why is it acceptable to shoot rockets purely targeting civilians while breaking a cease fire agreement?
      • GordonS 2y ago
        > hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, taped and murdered There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! AFAIK the only known instance of Hamas murdering a hostage was when a fighter lost it after Israel killed his entire family - all the other deaths have been a result of Israeli bombs (because if you want hostages back, you bomb them... right?!). And as you doubtless know, many of the "peaceful civilians" are actually serving IDF members... And as you also doubtless know, Palestinian hostages are routinely raped and tortured to death in Israeli dungeons - there is a wealth of evidence. > It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. This is what Israeli Hasbara do - repeat unevidenced claims until people accept them as "truth". But it's lies, there isn't a shred of evidence that Hamas as used even a single hospital as a "terrorist hideout". You know who has repurposed Gazan hospitals for military ops? Israel - every accusation is a confession with them.
• nsoonhui 2y ago
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  • dakom 2y ago
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  • r0p3 2y ago
    I don't think it's accurate to say they "left the place some 20 years ago" since they maintained a strict blockade on what could go in and out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
    • beagle3 2y ago
      It obviously wasn’t so strict since the Palestinians were still able to send thousands of rockets. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, which Israel doesn’t control. For their own reasons, the Egyptians also blockade Gaza - although they did let in all the explosives and weapons that were used against Israel.
      • r0p3 2y ago
        I agree that the Egyptians also blockaded it, which is also explained in the wiki I shared. It is still inaccurate (and intentionally misleading imo) to say "Israel left the place some 20 years ago".
    • nsoonhui 2y ago
      You confuse the cause and effect, the blockade was there because Hamas fired rocket at Israel after coming to power via election. Also Egypt blocked their side also, so I'm not sure what's the point you are making, beyond just Israel bashing.
      • r0p3 2y ago
        The point I'm making is that it is inaccurate to say Israel "left the place some 20 years ago" because they maintained a strict blockade on it. I didn't say anything about cause and effect.
• chasil 2y ago
  I graduated from an electrical engineering program at a big ten (U.S.) school in the mid '90s, and I am closing in on retirement. I spent today enrapt in an Oracle upgrade from 10g to 11g. Yes, our IT is COBOL-centric, and we are vastly behind the times. Much of today was spent (re)compiling C. The consensus is that I will have to think hard tomorrow about how to fix these problems. While I was in school, I studied with many Palestinians in my college of engineering. I wonder often what happened to them. At the same time, within Israel, Intel is the largest civilian employer. The Pentium M is an Israeli rework of the Pentium Pro legacy, and Israel is key to Intel's gains over the past two decades. I wish that everyone that I knew from the Middle East was fully involved in the advances of Intel. Perhaps my lost schoolmates' absence was precisely what Intel lacked, but such cultural divides are not easily bridged. This is a great pity.
  • throwaway2037 2y ago
    This is a great post. Thank you to share your personal experience. Do you think they were first generation Palestinians? Or multi-generation (parents or earlier immigrated)? I know that Michigan state (Detroit, etc.) has one of the largest Arab communities in the United States.
    • aprilthird2021 2y ago
      I went to school with some first generation Palestinians just 5-ish years ago. One of them had to miss an entire quarter because Israel just wouldn't allow him to leave. He has never been back to Palestine since then because another detainment or missed visa problem, etc. would derail his career.
      • ignoramous 2y ago
        > One of them had to miss an entire quarter because Israel just wouldn't allow him to leave Terrible. Even in the current ceasefire terms, there's an explicit provision to have Israel agree to let the injured leave for treatment to neighbouring countries and be allowed to come back to the Strip. Despite arguments to contrary, I can see why some claim it is an open-air prison.
• rayiner 2y ago
  > I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire. > Is this just his usual "appear unpredictable by all means" spiel or does he have a strategy there He thinks past a certain point it looks bad to the median American and isn’t ideological enough to push it past that.
• TacticalCoder 2y ago
  [dead]
• rastignack 2y ago
  > undermining democratic structures Democratic structures like fatah and hamas ?
  • slt2021 2y ago
    the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal. Yesterday they were called terrorists by the mainstream, tomorrow when they win they will be hailed as heroes and freedom fighters. the zionists were also called terrorists by the UK in the beginning, especially when they bombed king david hotel
    • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal No, it isn’t. Very few revolutions (i.e power inversions) have succeeded by indiscriminately killing the dominant side’s civilians. That frequency, moreover, goes down over time.
      • slt2021 2y ago
        yes it is. before oct7 there was a somewhat broad consensus that Hamas are bad and are terrorists. nowadays however, Hamas are hailed as resistance and freedom fighters. Only jewish hasbara still calls them terrorists, everyone else is sympathetic to Hamas, even Donald Trump, given his zionist position
        • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
          > Hamas are hailed as resistance and freedom fighters. Only jewish hasbara still calls them terrorists, everyone else is sympathetic No. About 20% of Americans support Hamas; 4% the October 7th attack [1]. It’s an extreme minority. People are sympathetic to Palestinians. Not Hamas. The best way for the foreign pro-Palestinian movement to fuck this up for Palestine is to falsely equate Palestinians with Hamas. Going back to the top point: Hamas hasn’t succeeded. Gaza’s occupation looks like it will be far more draconian than it was a few years ago, with the strip separated by security cordons all controlled by Israel. > everyone else is sympathetic to Hamas, even Donald Trump Trump's peace plan [2] is anathema to everything Hamas fought for. All the way to recognising anexations of currently-Palestinian territory. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-i... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan#Key_concepts_and_final_status_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan#Key_concepts_...
• anon291 2y ago
  > And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government that is actively at work undermining democratic structures and civil rights even inside the state - that too with no word of objection from its allies. And what would Gaza have if it were independent?
• a-saleh 2y ago
  I am hoping at least for some sort of "Ok, now we pour money and bricks and concrete into Gaza to help them rebuild."
  • mikrotikker 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • apetrov 2y ago
    call to dispose other's people money is easy. you are free to make you donation.
    • a-saleh 2y ago
      I did. But if several nation-states would pledge larger grants, I would have some hope that i.e. the trucks with the building materials would get through border-crossings, e.t.c. Individual donations are a drop in a very big and leaky bucket.
• petesergeant 2y ago
  > the west bank is still being annexed I am not smart enough to have an opinion on the situation in Gaza that's much more complicated than "people dying is bad", but I struggle to understand how the continued annexation of the West Bank by Israeli settlers, supported by the government and army, is anything other than clearly ethnic cleansing. If it had stopped ten years ago, and it was now a conversation about uprooting the established communities there, maybe then there's room for nuance and so on, but it didn't: it's ongoing.
• hattmall 2y ago
  >I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. It doesn't seem odd at all. Trump just went up against the mainstream Israeli-American power structure and won. He was very open that he supports Israel, but not this war. He ran on a premise that he would end the war before he took office. Appointing hard-line pro-Israel people is par for the course. It shows he supports Israel, but it makes those people beholden to him. In one of his books Trump talks about how he would give people he didn't like / wasn't sure about promotions. If they did a good job and impressed him great. If not he would fire them and felt that firing someone from a higher position was more meaningful and had a greater impact for the people below them. Trump understands what American power is he doesn't really give the context that other world leaders are looking for, he just goes about it with the premise of comply, or we will make things difficult for you. Trump basically tells Israel, you can do what you want, but you can't do it like this because it looks bad. The average person just doesn't like what they are seeing with regard to Palestine. Trump isn't ideological about Israel so he's not hellbent on the destruction of Palestine like so many. He gives the same attitude to most of our allies, in that you can be our friend, but you can't make us look bad.
  • the_gipsy 2y ago
    It was just Bibi being friendly with a fellow neofascist who happens to be the next elected POTUS, not some great diplomatic maneuvers from Trump.
• fxwin 2y ago
  > His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable His base and the people surrounding him have the habit of ostracizing anyone who doesn't fall in line behind him, rather than being guided by principle (Which is why Pence is no longer his VP pick, and why basically his whole cabinet is full of sycophants compared to last time). Trump's whole shtick is to take whatever is happening, and spin it into "This was my whole plan all along", then take the credit for it. This is why you never see him give concrete policy proposals in interviews, and is also what will likely happen with the russia/ukraine war. Whatever happens is good, and was part of Trump's plan, and his base will fall in line or disappear politically.
• JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire Only Nixon could go to China [1]. To the degree the Israel-Palestine war could have helped America, it already has. Hezbollah has given way to a power-sharing government in Lebanon. Syria, miraculously, is a wild card--with major implications for Russia and Iran. Hamas has been downgraded from a threat to a nuisance. And not only is Iran on its back foot, we also got a free PR campaign for the efficacy of American weapons and worthlessness of post-Soviet Russian air defences. Realpolitikally speaking, any more war is an expensive distraction. (Potent for a media-time savvy guy.) I'm sure Netanyahu could find something new to bomb in Gaza. But it's not a bad time for him to consolidate gains, politically and geopolitically, and possibly re-aim Washington's eye towards Iran. (On a human level, it does seem Trump gets moved by images of war deaths. Maybe the carnage actually touched him.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China
  • aprilthird2021 2y ago
    > To the degree the Israel-Palestine war could have helped America, it already has Idk, what we had to watch Israel do and fund with our own money may not have been worth all those achievements. Only time will tell... We made a lot of advancements in Iraq and Afghanistan too, and that was nowhere near as careless about human suffering as this latest flare up. And we lost all that progress extremely rapidly due to the hatred the local populace and neighboring countries had due to our actions. I think Israel (and us, since we are tied together) might face the same unforced error.
    • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > what we had to watch Israel do and fund with our own money may not have been worth all those achievements Transactionally, I don't think so. Strategically, we rendered irrelevant hundreds of billions of dollars of Iranian foreign spending worthless for $20bn [1]. We also communicated that we stand by our allies. I don't think that's worth tens of thousands of civilian deaths, but it is an important factor. (Morally, I don't think an all-out war was necessary to decapitate Hamas--surgical strikes on the leaders, over time, should have been possible without reducing the enclave to rubble. That said, I don't know.) > We made a lot of advancements in Iraq and Afghanistan too And then we left. Massive difference between supporting a force and building one. > Israel (and us, since we are tied together) might face the same unforced error Possibly. Iran and Saudi Arabia (and to a lesser degree Qatar) have been the regional mischief makers, and they all seem somewhat spent. (Israel didn't create as much disruptive mischief, ironically.) I'm honestly not convinced the Palestinian people want war any more than the Lebanese or, frankly, Iranians. [1] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2023/2024/Costs%20of%20War_US%20Support%20Since%20Oct%207%20FINAL%20v2.pdf https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/20...
• southernplaces7 2y ago
  >And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government that is actively at work undermining democratic structures and civil rights even inside the state As opposed to the neighboring states (and Hamas), which mostly have religiously tolerant, fully democratic governments that fully respect civil rights, and which of course have never openly stated that they want Israel to disappear from existence, not at all leaving it implicit that its millions of Jewish residents should be ethnically cleansed from the region.. Yes?
  • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    The further we are from a people, the more we tend to group them into monoliths. As monoliths, both sides are monsters, with the best one can argue being that one side's monstrosity is justified. Break them down further and you can find the actual monsters--those self-interestedly seeking either their own aims, or, some random aim at any cost, even when the aim is impossible and its costs massive.
    • southernplaces7 2y ago
      What the hell does your statement have to do with the very real, practical natures of the governments and political organizations of neighboring countries and lined up against Israel through a number of ideological arguments? I'm not talking about monoliths on either side. I'm specifically referring to states in the region with authoritarian and even despotic governments with exactly the traits that the comment I originally responded to claims about Israel.
  • Urahandystar 2y ago
    Such an insane take, how is adding another despotic goverment to the mix going to help?
    • mutatio 2y ago
      Because it's a cultural arms race. What kind of nation do you think is capable of manifesting in those local conditions, a progressive social democracy like Sweden?
• SurgicalDoc_UK 2y ago
  Exactly. This war has really messed up the world and Israel for generations to come. Never mind the devastation in Gaza. But the Palestinians cant keep living under occupation. Everyone should continue to exert pressure for a free Palestine or the cycle will continue. The fundamental goal of the current Israeli government is to never have a Palestinian state, which will always be a major barrier unless sanctions are introduced. Trump was interesting.. Im sure we’ll find out one day what it was all about. But if he really was the catalyst in this I will take back my words and eat humble pie. Someone has suggested the ceasefire is just a show, so we watch carefully.
  • presentation 2y ago
    My understanding is that decades past when Israeli liberals tried being nice to Palestine and letting them self govern they were rewarded with more bombings and conflict. It isn’t a politically tenable position in Israel anymore to let Palestine (and Lebanon) “just be,” and that’s equally the fault of Palestinian behavior as it is Israel’s. I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, but the truth of the matter is that Israel has a valid claim too and military superiority to back it. If Palestine is to self govern, it and the rest of the nations around it need to convince Israel that they won’t try to wipe Israel off the map (or, alternatively, to succeed at it, which I’m sure many Western protesters would celebrate). Until then Israel will just dominate them instead.
  • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
    << This war has really messed up the world and Israel for generations to come. Possibly. There does seem to be an uptick in previously unvoicable sentiment that was quickly squashed anywhere it showed on social media. I will say this. My parents went out of their way not to discuss some political events with their children ( communism - different rules apply and kids are dumb ), but in 90s, when similar 'war' raged and newshead was convincingly telling me, who to root for, my father unusually said 'you may want to check how Israel came into existence.' For the longest time, I did not. October surprise was a reason to get some of the dust removed from those books. It is not a good look. One could argue it is worse than US colonization of Indian lands.
• someothherguyy 2y ago
  > Is this just his usual "appear unpredictable by all means" spiel or does he have a strategy there? If you think a 78 year old alone is capable of such feats of planning, you have more faith in the elderly than most. Read any of his speeches that are off the cuff and you will see that Trump has incredibly poor working memory, vocabulary, and attention. This is to be expected from an elderly individual, but not from a great strategist. These are the results of large groups of people working towards goals, not heroic individual feats.
• crabbone 2y ago
  > Never mind that Gaza is still in ruins, the west bank is still being annexed, Israel still has the dual role of "all authority, no obligations" over the Palestinians, while making it pretty clear they have no vision for them at all, apart from "maybe they just vanish into thin air tomorrow". Israel doesn't want to annex Yehuda and Shomron (the place you call West Bank). This is a complete misunderstanding of the people in the West about Israeli politics. Israel wants to have nothing to do with Arab population. Never wanted it, and doesn't see it wanting it in the future. It's completely antithetical to what the absolute majority of Israeli population (and the politicians who represent it) want. The reason why Israel holds that territory is that after one of the wars, Israel tried to use it as a bargaining chip to convince its Arab neighbors to recognize Israel as a country and to sign a peace treaty, once the territory is returned (so-called "land for peace" series of UN treaties). But, the Arab neighbors outsmarted Israel by abandoning their people in occupied territories, and, essentially, handing Israel an armed grenade that it now has no idea what to do with. With respect to this problem, Israel has different approaches to its solution, that range from the "transfer" (the idea that Israel will force / subsidize the Arab population to migrate out of the occupied territories, this is the extreme right-wing position, assassinated "Gandhi" was one of the major proponents of it.) to the two-state solution on the far left, where Israel makes territorial concessions, esp. in Jerusalem and around. But there's no political force that wants annexation (including the population), and nobody would realistically dare to vanquish / force to move the whole population of Gaza / Yehuda and Shomron. Of course, you could probably find some oddball idiot declaring "death to all Arabs" or similar, but they don't hold any real political power. But even these people wouldn't want annexation if it meant they have to put up with the people from annexed territories.
• that_guy_iain 2y ago
  > Never mind that Gaza is still in ruins, the west bank is still being annexed, Israel still has the dual role of "all authority, no obligations" over the Palestinians, while making it pretty clear they have no vision for them at all, apart from "maybe they just vanish into thin air tomorrow". It was pretty much like that before. They're just being a lot more open about wanting to wipe them out.
• ta20240528 2y ago
  > And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government All true, very true. Of course the other bunch will slaughter you for drawing a cartoon. I submit that you have a responsibility to be comprehensive when posting.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • spacephysics 2y ago
    I submit no such responsibility is required, thats one reason comment threads exist. So others can add to the discussion…
  • piltdownman 2y ago
    In the interests of comprehensiveness, the 'other bunch' have AIPAC, the Shomrim, and will get legislation passed enshrining Orwellian Newspeak. Anti-Zionism is now categorised as Anti-Semitism in American discourse. Insanity. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolutio...
  • hmcq6 2y ago
    > All true, very true. Of course the other bunch will slaughter you for drawing a cartoon. You're confusing Al-Qaeda with Muslims.
    • kgwgk 2y ago
      > Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% [of British Muslims] agreed that such violence was never justifiable. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31293196 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31293196 You’re confusing Al-Qaeda with one third of Muslims living in a Western country.
      • hmcq6 2y ago
        > Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable. > But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer. > Of those polled, 95% felt a loyalty to Britain, while 93% believed that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws. 24%. 24% = 1/3. You seem like the kind of person who caused the McDonalds 1/3 pounder flop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0 But the better argument is that 24% of people saying "it could be justified" is that it actually could be justified. Should I punch everyone who includes Nazi symbology in their art? No. Should I punch a Nazi who repeatedly promotes his ideology through his art? Yes.
• macspoofing 2y ago
  This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance. The Palestinian position seems to be "trust us that if you give us full, un-fettered independence, then we will not be a hostile entity" - but that's asking for Israel to place an enormous amount of trust in present and future Palestinian people and leaders, without any historical reasons to base this on, and highlighted by the worst case scenario of Hezbollah in the north, a foreign-controlled militia funded to the tune of 1 billion / year, and potential a hostile party in the West Bank (and Gaza) - effectively surrounding the country. And it is more than just demilitarization. A demilitarized Palestine is not enough if, for example, Iran funnels hundreds of millions of dollars in arms to militia groups. Hence we are where we are .. with Israel unable to disengage because doing so presents an existential risk to their nation.
  • weatherlite 2y ago
    > "trust us that if you give us full, un-fettered independence, then we will not be a hostile entity" I don't agree, that's an optimistic view of things. Most Palestinians (Hamas for sure, Abbas as well) never agreed to give up on the 'Right of Return' so its not really independence in a 2 state solution that they're looking for, it's the abolishment of Israel.
    • macspoofing 2y ago
      That's part of the problem as well - it's not exactly clear what the Palestinian position is - partly because I think they see things like 'right of return' (which is completely unacceptable to Israel) as bargaining chips to trade for something during negotiations.
      • runarberg 2y ago
        The right of return is a human right which some Palestinians have according to international law. Whether it is acceptable or not for Israelis should not be a consideration. Majority rule was also completely unacceptable to white Rhodesians. But the international community correctly assessed this to be because of racist grounds and thus not worthy of consideration. Palestinians might negotiate away the right of return at some future date, but any deal which denies them that right will be a human rights violation and thus court material to be reversed at an even later future. But regardless, what Israelis think is not of concern, and should not be a concern.
• prmoustache 2y ago
  > "maybe they just vanish into thin air tomorrow" Actually they don't want them to vanish completely. Just suffer enough. They are the reason the far right government is leading Israël.
• weatherlite 2y ago
  > And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government that is actively at work undermining democratic structures and civil rights even inside the state And never mind that Hamas is still the same old non compromising, cut throat, maximalist and some would say genocidal terrorist organization it has always been. You forgot to mention that. The PLO is only slightly better.
• asheri 2y ago
  Israel does not have a fundamentalist, authoritarian government! There are some fundamentalist and far-right parties in the current coalition but they have little power to push their own policies except to threaten to bolt the coalition. For all the talk of those 2-3 ministers to who belong to these more extreme parties to eg legitimise new settlements, repopulate gaza, they don't have enough power to actually pass such laws and none of these ministers none of whom hold the top 8 roles in government. The most religious/fundementalist of the the parties UTJ believes in land for peace and have said so many times over the years (but like the majority of the Israeli public, they wont mention it, let alone push for it, during wartime so as not to reward terrorism) and was fully behind all the ceasefire proposals in the past 18 months. And it's certainly not authoritarian. Israel has full powers of protest, free speech, and in fact it's generally the press that have the strongest voice not the government. And "that is actively at work undermining democratic structures" is also wrong. They are trying to reform Israel's supreme court system which many legal scholars agree badly needs reform as the justices are largely self-selected yet have the power to override legislation without referring to existing law (the so-called reasonableness test which no other country has).
  • rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • jakelazaroff 2y ago
      Most countries wouldn't be in that position in the first place. Mexico attacking the US would be basically unprovoked; Hamas attacking Israel is… not.
      • sempron64 2y ago
        Before the attacks Israel was in the process of normalizing relations with Gaza. For example, they were increasing work permits monthly. Here is an article from summer 2022 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/bennett-said-to-tell-mks-he-ordered-another-3000-work-permits-be-issued-to-gazans/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/bennett-said-to... The Nova music festival was a peace festival. So yes, the Oct 7th attack was unprovoked. Subjective historical context is not provocation.
• rPlayer6554 2y ago
  > I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire. Because you weren't listening to Trump. Throughout all of his campaigns he's been pretty clear he doesn't want to be paying for other country's defense/military spending.
• stronglikedan 2y ago
  > I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire. It's not odd, considering that most pro-Israel figures (and most Israelis themselves) are not pro-Netanyahu.
• fuzzfactor 2y ago
  >"maybe they just vanish into thin air tomorrow" This is the exact platform of at least one political party on either side. Over and above any underlying cultural or historical conflict. It's when misguided political parties gain power that puts that kind of thing on steroids.