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> I am not planning to get a lawyer involved as I have faith that UW leadership will make it right in the end. All evidence so far indicates they will not make

> I am not planning to get a lawyer involved as I have faith that UW leadership will make it right in the end. All evidence so far indicates they will not make it right, but instead they may make it even worse. Your faith is wildly misplaced. Seriously, talk to a lawyer. Keep in mind, just because you seek advice from a lawyer doesn't mean you need to take legal action against the school. Talking to a lawyer is not an escalation; the school doesn't even need to know you consulted one. A lawyer will advise whether you should take legal action and any more amicable alternatives available before they do anything on your behalf.

ryandrake 2y ago
OP please consider listening to this reply. Do not rely on an unaccountable bureaucracy to "do the right thing." They don't.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  At least he'll learn this valuable lesson pretty young. It was fairly devastating to me by the time I learned it well into my 30's.
spieswl 2y ago
Having seen what some other university administrations have done to darling students and innovators even just around such things as lab space, parent comment is right on the money.
eykanal 2y ago
Just piling on here because upvotes are not visible. The one thing you can guarantee is that your good faith is not reciprocated by the university. Get a lawyer. To make it easier: it sounds like you're still registered. University of Washington offers Student Legal Services ( https://depts.washington.edu/slsuw/ https://depts.washington.edu/slsuw/ ). Set up a referral with one of them and talk to them. Even if they're employees of the university and don't want to work with you to sue the university itself they may be able to give you good advice about how to proceed.
- move-on-by 2y ago
  It’s a funny thought, but looks like a nonstarter: > SLS cannot represent a student when the opposing party is another UW-Seattle, Tacoma, or Bothell student or UW entity.
  - zeckalpha 2y ago
    They can have a conversation without being representation and should connect OP to someone who can represent them.
    - DannyBee 2y ago
      No they can't have a conversation when they know of a non waivable conflict.
      - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
        Surely they could refer the enquiry to the bar association or something in this jurisdiction. How would the lawyer even know, without conversation, that there was a conflict?
        creer 2y ago
        > Surely they could refer the enquiry to the bar association or something in this jurisdiction. They might but in many cases wouldn't even do that because they still wouldn't get paid for it. Doesn't matter, you don't need them for that.
        DannyBee 2y ago
        To be fair, in many cases, they can be held responsible for whether you refer people to the right place.
        DannyBee 2y ago
        They can basically say "i can't speak to you". More than even that is tricky. As for the latter, that's why i said "when they know of a non waivable conflict". Emphasis being "know of". Here, they know they have a conflict - they have a client, it's not this person, and they know their client will be adversarial to this person. They aren't even part of a law firm that represents multiple clients regularly or something like that where sometimes the conflicts might be waivable (often not, but still) This is a very very easy case. If they don't know they have a conflict, sure, they can have a conversation for the purposes of understanding if they have a conflict. That's not this case though!
sitkack 2y ago
Get a lawyer. Holding your degree hostage unless you work for them for free is off the charts ridiculous. They might have just paid for your entire education. When I went to the UW I used Arexx and my 2400 baud modem to turbo register for classes the moment the system went live.
- bb88 2y ago
  > Arexx and my 2400 baud modem Arexx was fun back in the day. A nice scripting language for the time.
throwup238 2y ago
Not to mention that University of Washington is a public university run by the state. IANAL but this may well fall into constitutional issues so the ACLU might be interested, not to mention any number of other pro-bono lawyers. Most attorneys I’ve interacted with give a free one hour consultation and this sounds like a rather clear case where they can at least refer the OP to someone in their network who might be interested in doing it for free (again IANAL).
infogulch 2y ago
Negative feedback can be a net good for anyone, even if they don't like it in the moment, and even for conglomerate entities like a school. Petty bureaucratic admins abusing their authority to spite you are likely abusing it against others under their purview. Honestly if you feel you have an allegiance to the school there's an argument that it's your duty to oppose petty tyrants within it. Think of it as a service to the the ideal of the school.
Animats 2y ago
Agreed. You need a lawyer. Not necessarily to go to court, but at least to write some letters. That should not cost more than a few hundred dollars. Don't wait. Document everything. Make copies. Store them somewhere safe. Read Washington State law on extortion in the first degree.[1] Follow the link to the definition of "threat", especially the section on "official action": "To take wrongful action as an official against anyone or anything, or wrongfully withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding". It's really bad for a state official to attempt extortion. It's a 10 years in prison felony offense. Edit: Having a lawyer write and send a letter on your behalf tends to resolve a large number of annoying situations. A lawyer on the other side will have to read it. This immediately gets you past the first-line people to people who have to consider consequences. [1] https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.56.120 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.56.120
peeters 2y ago
Also, merely them knowing you have a lawyer instantly reframes the problem in their eyes. The path of least resistance to dealing with a "problematic" student is making the student go away. The path of least resistance to dealing with a "problematic" student with a lawyer is making the lawyer go away. All of a sudden bureaucrats will be getting visits from internal legal departments asking very pointed questions about questionable actions.
- emacsen 2y ago
  Yes and. Yes, and even if it doesn't go to court, the university will know that it will cost them time and money. It's entirely possible that university president or higher administration is unaware of the situation, and if they were, will intervene. The best way to do that is to have it brought to their attention via a legal letter, which then means they need to bring in their lawyers. A good lawyer for the university won't want to fight because fighting is not in the best interest of the university. A good lawyer will say "We threatened the student with this? No good can come of that... let him register, let him graduate and make this all go away." That doesn't mean the client (the university) will take it, but overall fighting isn't in their interest either.
joecool1029 2y ago
Unlike most of the other commenters I have personal experience fighting a college administration in court. It was a massive time waste and I came out losing a years of my academic career where they lost nothing (money is absolutely not a factor for a large university, nor is stalling court proceedings to waste your life). I'm not even allowed to elaborate deeply on what it was about, the settlement for putting it behind me was a binding NDA. This isn't advice it's just a story about what happened to me, to give you an idea of how things *could* go for you: What I did to warrant initial sanctioning by my college was filing a witness statement describing a petty disorderly offense another student did. Apparently the college didn't like that I filed a statement with the police and it did not go through their internal system. The school placed a hold and I contacted my dean by email. I was told by the dean, in writing, that I was not being sanctioned but the hold would remain until I attended a hearing to describe the incident as prescribed in the handbook. When I went to this 'procedural hearing' with the other witness, they brought us in one at a time in front of representatives of the student body and the administration. At the end of my account they told me I would receive their decision and sanctions by mail. They issued formal academic sanctions and created a remediation plan not unlike what they are requesting of you. I retained a lawyer at this point and ended up filing a complaint in civil. There's nothing speedy here, judges stalled, the school stalled. Almost 2 years went by and we finally had the lawyers draft a settlement that made it possible to pursue college again. In the meanwhile they increased the sanctions on the remaining witness that didn't sue in order to retaliate. The student we filed the statement about, apparently the school couldn't touch since the police charged him. He got off paying a ticket and no other sanctions, last I heard he was in postgrad for mathematics and doing well for himself.
- cbozeman 2y ago
  I didn't have it quite as bad as you, but I did go to war once with my alma mater regarding a particularly small lab director and part-time instructor who had a Napoleon complex going on. He was directly and obviously infringing on student's First Amendment rights, not to mention bullying the class as a whole and attempting to threaten people. Ironically, his heart was in the right place, but his execution was way off. I was fortunate in that I went to college much later in life, after a career in the military, and as I'd had enough bullshit there, I made the conscious choice not to tolerate any out in the world. Long story short, he and I butt heads. Then he wanted to take up to the Department head. For someone with a Ph.D., she definitely didn't think it through, just proving you can have a Ph.D., even in a STEM field, and not be too fucking bright... but... when it got to the Dean of Students, and the campus's VA liaison all sat down for a meeting with me, and I started pointing out that F.I.R.E. would have a field day with this, and would we really want a veteran-led incident on campus with a lab director that's flat out admitted in recorded interviews (I was attending college in a one-party recording state, so I had recordings of every one of these meetings) that he doesn't care about students' First Amendment rights?? That put everything into perspective really damn quick. I have never forgot that meeting because there, in that moment, we all looked at each other and everyone understood exactly what I was saying. The Dean of Students stood up and said, "Do you want to apologize to the department dean...?" and I just raised one eyebrow and he immediately shot back, "Right... we should probably all let this go." I nodded and said, "I think that'd be the best option for everyone involved, after you guys sit down with Lab Director and straighten him out." I've done some things I'm not too particularly proud of in my life, but this was one time I really felt like I did the right thing.
urronglol 2y ago
[dead]
dzdt 2y ago
A lawyer is NOT the right next step. As soon as you engage a lawyer the school will switch from treating this as a student policy matter (which will be resolved in a timeline of days) to a legal matter (which will only be resolved in a timeline of years). The timeline question is of no concern to the courts or the school but makes a huge difference to you. It does seem like you need someone on your side. A list of people to consider: your academic advisor, the professor in whose course you built the prototype application, your department chair, student ombudsman, dean of students. If the university is being as unreasonable as your posting makes it sound like, you will have no trouble getting one or more of these people on your side and they will be able to apply pressure to the registrars office on your behalf if needed to get your hold lifted.
- bazintastic 2y ago
  This is the right answer. A large institution like a university is not a monolith. The university will produce antibodies to external participants, like lawyers (or the media). You're most likely to get better outcomes if you can ensure the conflict plays out within the university and its rules, structures, and participants. Your work now is to convince other members of the university to advocate on your behalf. (It should not be difficult. If this is as you describe, reasonable faculty members will be your allies.) The same goes for publicizing this further. The student newspaper is probably okay, but keep talking to other media in the room as a bargaining chip. Bad press may well force some administrator's hand. To be sure, a chat with a lawyer may be helpful to get a sense of the universe of possible outcomes pursuing extramural action, but don't let anbyody send any lawyerly letters yet.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    > You're most likely to get better outcomes if you can ensure the conflict plays out within the university and its rules, structures, and participants. It's too late for that, even if you're correct here (and I don't think I agree). News of this has already spread, and will continue to spread.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  Having been on both sides of the fence here, this is highly contrary to my experience. Large institutions are more than happy, in many cases, to bully anybody when it benefits them. But as soon as possible legal/media issues emerge they're going to suddenly be your best friend looking to make things right as quickly and cleanly as possible. The ombudsman is definitely not a bad idea, but in most cases the mere hint of legal involvement would get this resolved without any legal involvement - just going on for a consultation doesn't mean one has to go to the next step, and in all probability you won't have to.
caseysoftware 2y ago
^ This. You need a trusted advisor on your side who can look at it with a calm mind and perspective on what is normal, acceptable, and legal. You're young and have been slapped around, seemingly inappropriately. If you were in physical pain, you'd talk to a doctor to assess and get recommendations before treatment. Do the same here.
- croemer 2y ago
  Trusted advisor doesn't need to be lawyer. Can be trusted professor.
  - caseysoftware 2y ago
    No, you need someone who will represent YOUR interests both in public and private. When the stakes are exceptionally high, don't ask for advice from someone paid by the agressor.
burnte 2y ago
And additionally a lawyer will help make him aware of alternatives he may not know about, and also give him warning as to what other strong arm tactics UW could do, and how to safeguard himself. It's truly a smart idea.
darrmit 2y ago
Also upvoting, as this is a valuable lesson as you head into a career: no company (nor school) cares about you more than they care about the organization. HR does not work for you and while the individuals may care for you personally, they will almost never act in "good faith".
m463 2y ago
Just another case of a business gradually feeling little respect for their customers.

ryandrake 2y ago

OP please consider listening to this reply. Do not rely on an unaccountable bureaucracy to "do the right thing." They don't.

JohnMakin 2y ago
At least he'll learn this valuable lesson pretty young. It was fairly devastating to me by the time I learned it well into my 30's.

spieswl 2y ago

Having seen what some other university administrations have done to darling students and innovators even just around such things as lab space, parent comment is right on the money.

eykanal 2y ago

Just piling on here because upvotes are not visible. The one thing you can guarantee is that your good faith is not reciprocated by the university. Get a lawyer. To make it easier: it sounds like you're still registered. University of Washington offers Student Legal Services ( https://depts.washington.edu/slsuw/ https://depts.washington.edu/slsuw/ ). Set up a referral with one of them and talk to them. Even if they're employees of the university and don't want to work with you to sue the university itself they may be able to give you good advice about how to proceed.

move-on-by 2y ago
It’s a funny thought, but looks like a nonstarter: > SLS cannot represent a student when the opposing party is another UW-Seattle, Tacoma, or Bothell student or UW entity.
- zeckalpha 2y ago
  They can have a conversation without being representation and should connect OP to someone who can represent them.
  - DannyBee 2y ago
    No they can't have a conversation when they know of a non waivable conflict.
    - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
      Surely they could refer the enquiry to the bar association or something in this jurisdiction. How would the lawyer even know, without conversation, that there was a conflict?
      - creer 2y ago
        > Surely they could refer the enquiry to the bar association or something in this jurisdiction. They might but in many cases wouldn't even do that because they still wouldn't get paid for it. Doesn't matter, you don't need them for that.
        DannyBee 2y ago
        To be fair, in many cases, they can be held responsible for whether you refer people to the right place.
      - DannyBee 2y ago
        They can basically say "i can't speak to you". More than even that is tricky. As for the latter, that's why i said "when they know of a non waivable conflict". Emphasis being "know of". Here, they know they have a conflict - they have a client, it's not this person, and they know their client will be adversarial to this person. They aren't even part of a law firm that represents multiple clients regularly or something like that where sometimes the conflicts might be waivable (often not, but still) This is a very very easy case. If they don't know they have a conflict, sure, they can have a conversation for the purposes of understanding if they have a conflict. That's not this case though!

sitkack 2y ago

Get a lawyer. Holding your degree hostage unless you work for them for free is off the charts ridiculous. They might have just paid for your entire education. When I went to the UW I used Arexx and my 2400 baud modem to turbo register for classes the moment the system went live.

bb88 2y ago
> Arexx and my 2400 baud modem Arexx was fun back in the day. A nice scripting language for the time.

throwup238 2y ago

Not to mention that University of Washington is a public university run by the state. IANAL but this may well fall into constitutional issues so the ACLU might be interested, not to mention any number of other pro-bono lawyers. Most attorneys I’ve interacted with give a free one hour consultation and this sounds like a rather clear case where they can at least refer the OP to someone in their network who might be interested in doing it for free (again IANAL).

infogulch 2y ago

Negative feedback can be a net good for anyone, even if they don't like it in the moment, and even for conglomerate entities like a school. Petty bureaucratic admins abusing their authority to spite you are likely abusing it against others under their purview. Honestly if you feel you have an allegiance to the school there's an argument that it's your duty to oppose petty tyrants within it. Think of it as a service to the the ideal of the school.

Animats 2y ago

Agreed. You need a lawyer. Not necessarily to go to court, but at least to write some letters. That should not cost more than a few hundred dollars. Don't wait. Document everything. Make copies. Store them somewhere safe. Read Washington State law on extortion in the first degree.[1] Follow the link to the definition of "threat", especially the section on "official action": "To take wrongful action as an official against anyone or anything, or wrongfully withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding". It's really bad for a state official to attempt extortion. It's a 10 years in prison felony offense. Edit: Having a lawyer write and send a letter on your behalf tends to resolve a large number of annoying situations. A lawyer on the other side will have to read it. This immediately gets you past the first-line people to people who have to consider consequences. [1] https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.56.120 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.56.120

peeters 2y ago

Also, merely them knowing you have a lawyer instantly reframes the problem in their eyes. The path of least resistance to dealing with a "problematic" student is making the student go away. The path of least resistance to dealing with a "problematic" student with a lawyer is making the lawyer go away. All of a sudden bureaucrats will be getting visits from internal legal departments asking very pointed questions about questionable actions.

emacsen 2y ago
Yes and. Yes, and even if it doesn't go to court, the university will know that it will cost them time and money. It's entirely possible that university president or higher administration is unaware of the situation, and if they were, will intervene. The best way to do that is to have it brought to their attention via a legal letter, which then means they need to bring in their lawyers. A good lawyer for the university won't want to fight because fighting is not in the best interest of the university. A good lawyer will say "We threatened the student with this? No good can come of that... let him register, let him graduate and make this all go away." That doesn't mean the client (the university) will take it, but overall fighting isn't in their interest either.

joecool1029 2y ago

Unlike most of the other commenters I have personal experience fighting a college administration in court. It was a massive time waste and I came out losing a years of my academic career where they lost nothing (money is absolutely not a factor for a large university, nor is stalling court proceedings to waste your life). I'm not even allowed to elaborate deeply on what it was about, the settlement for putting it behind me was a binding NDA. This isn't advice it's just a story about what happened to me, to give you an idea of how things *could* go for you: What I did to warrant initial sanctioning by my college was filing a witness statement describing a petty disorderly offense another student did. Apparently the college didn't like that I filed a statement with the police and it did not go through their internal system. The school placed a hold and I contacted my dean by email. I was told by the dean, in writing, that I was not being sanctioned but the hold would remain until I attended a hearing to describe the incident as prescribed in the handbook. When I went to this 'procedural hearing' with the other witness, they brought us in one at a time in front of representatives of the student body and the administration. At the end of my account they told me I would receive their decision and sanctions by mail. They issued formal academic sanctions and created a remediation plan not unlike what they are requesting of you. I retained a lawyer at this point and ended up filing a complaint in civil. There's nothing speedy here, judges stalled, the school stalled. Almost 2 years went by and we finally had the lawyers draft a settlement that made it possible to pursue college again. In the meanwhile they increased the sanctions on the remaining witness that didn't sue in order to retaliate. The student we filed the statement about, apparently the school couldn't touch since the police charged him. He got off paying a ticket and no other sanctions, last I heard he was in postgrad for mathematics and doing well for himself.

cbozeman 2y ago
I didn't have it quite as bad as you, but I did go to war once with my alma mater regarding a particularly small lab director and part-time instructor who had a Napoleon complex going on. He was directly and obviously infringing on student's First Amendment rights, not to mention bullying the class as a whole and attempting to threaten people. Ironically, his heart was in the right place, but his execution was way off. I was fortunate in that I went to college much later in life, after a career in the military, and as I'd had enough bullshit there, I made the conscious choice not to tolerate any out in the world. Long story short, he and I butt heads. Then he wanted to take up to the Department head. For someone with a Ph.D., she definitely didn't think it through, just proving you can have a Ph.D., even in a STEM field, and not be too fucking bright... but... when it got to the Dean of Students, and the campus's VA liaison all sat down for a meeting with me, and I started pointing out that F.I.R.E. would have a field day with this, and would we really want a veteran-led incident on campus with a lab director that's flat out admitted in recorded interviews (I was attending college in a one-party recording state, so I had recordings of every one of these meetings) that he doesn't care about students' First Amendment rights?? That put everything into perspective really damn quick. I have never forgot that meeting because there, in that moment, we all looked at each other and everyone understood exactly what I was saying. The Dean of Students stood up and said, "Do you want to apologize to the department dean...?" and I just raised one eyebrow and he immediately shot back, "Right... we should probably all let this go." I nodded and said, "I think that'd be the best option for everyone involved, after you guys sit down with Lab Director and straighten him out." I've done some things I'm not too particularly proud of in my life, but this was one time I really felt like I did the right thing.

urronglol 2y ago

[dead]

dzdt 2y ago

A lawyer is NOT the right next step. As soon as you engage a lawyer the school will switch from treating this as a student policy matter (which will be resolved in a timeline of days) to a legal matter (which will only be resolved in a timeline of years). The timeline question is of no concern to the courts or the school but makes a huge difference to you. It does seem like you need someone on your side. A list of people to consider: your academic advisor, the professor in whose course you built the prototype application, your department chair, student ombudsman, dean of students. If the university is being as unreasonable as your posting makes it sound like, you will have no trouble getting one or more of these people on your side and they will be able to apply pressure to the registrars office on your behalf if needed to get your hold lifted.

bazintastic 2y ago
This is the right answer. A large institution like a university is not a monolith. The university will produce antibodies to external participants, like lawyers (or the media). You're most likely to get better outcomes if you can ensure the conflict plays out within the university and its rules, structures, and participants. Your work now is to convince other members of the university to advocate on your behalf. (It should not be difficult. If this is as you describe, reasonable faculty members will be your allies.) The same goes for publicizing this further. The student newspaper is probably okay, but keep talking to other media in the room as a bargaining chip. Bad press may well force some administrator's hand. To be sure, a chat with a lawyer may be helpful to get a sense of the universe of possible outcomes pursuing extramural action, but don't let anbyody send any lawyerly letters yet.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > You're most likely to get better outcomes if you can ensure the conflict plays out within the university and its rules, structures, and participants. It's too late for that, even if you're correct here (and I don't think I agree). News of this has already spread, and will continue to spread.
ANewFormation 2y ago
Having been on both sides of the fence here, this is highly contrary to my experience. Large institutions are more than happy, in many cases, to bully anybody when it benefits them. But as soon as possible legal/media issues emerge they're going to suddenly be your best friend looking to make things right as quickly and cleanly as possible. The ombudsman is definitely not a bad idea, but in most cases the mere hint of legal involvement would get this resolved without any legal involvement - just going on for a consultation doesn't mean one has to go to the next step, and in all probability you won't have to.

caseysoftware 2y ago

^ This. You need a trusted advisor on your side who can look at it with a calm mind and perspective on what is normal, acceptable, and legal. You're young and have been slapped around, seemingly inappropriately. If you were in physical pain, you'd talk to a doctor to assess and get recommendations before treatment. Do the same here.

croemer 2y ago
Trusted advisor doesn't need to be lawyer. Can be trusted professor.
- caseysoftware 2y ago
  No, you need someone who will represent YOUR interests both in public and private. When the stakes are exceptionally high, don't ask for advice from someone paid by the agressor.

burnte 2y ago

And additionally a lawyer will help make him aware of alternatives he may not know about, and also give him warning as to what other strong arm tactics UW could do, and how to safeguard himself. It's truly a smart idea.

darrmit 2y ago

Also upvoting, as this is a valuable lesson as you head into a career: no company (nor school) cares about you more than they care about the organization. HR does not work for you and while the individuals may care for you personally, they will almost never act in "good faith".

m463 2y ago

Just another case of a business gradually feeling little respect for their customers.