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My employer cannot hire H-1Bs. You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. You have to be eligible

My employer cannot hire H-1Bs. You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. You don't have to get one if you don't want to as there is usually plenty of uncleared work to go around, but you have to be eligible in case that goes away and we need to put you in for a clearance. We cannot find qualified applicants. I've had this conversation many times on HN so here are some preemptive responses: No, we don't make weapons for the military. Well, we do but not my part of the company. The most harmful thing the products I build do is quantify in precise detail how climate change is dooming us all. No, our positions aren't ghost positions. Yes, we are willing to train someone who is motivated. We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant but we will pay a tech writer to go to school nights/weekends to get a degree in engineering (me, I did that). Yes, we have extensive high school and college work-study/internships and participants make $72k/yr. with full benefits for the duration of the program. That pipeline is actually successful. No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. Yes, we pay well. No, we don't pay as much as Meta. We build components for satellites that have been sold to space agencies and purchased by various departments/ministries of the environment, not your personal information to advertisers-- one party has more money to spend than the other. We have shortages in mech/EE/Aero, shortages in software, and critical shortages in engineering technicians. One issue is that we expect programmers to remember linear algebra and have more than the ability to shovel frameworks on top of each other until a phone app comes out the other side.

taurath 2y ago
[flagged]
pizzalife 2y ago
>No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. You are not a US person as a visa holder. You are however a US person if you have permanent residency (green card).
geertj 2y ago
Why linear algebra? Honest question, i have not seen this as a specific requirement before.
- jmb99 2y ago
  It can be inferred that they’re making satellites, or at least satellite components. It’s pretty likely that vector math will be involved in some of the software being written in that context. In particular, if anything they write involves navigation (which is a lot of things when it comes to satellites, from actually maneuvering to observation correction) you need to have a pretty good understanding of linear algebra to write good software. And aerospace isn’t an industry where you want someone relying on google for mission-critical logic.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Sure, but there's a huge spectrum between "mild competence" and "can recite strang's verbatim". My experience is that companies emphasizing specific math skills beyond normal professional baselines typically expect the latter despite usually offering the same (or lower) salaries than the former.
    - zifpanachr23 2y ago
      strang's would be something that is entry level in terms of linear algebra. I think they should clarify whether they want somebody that has passed a linear algebra class with high marks based on something like strangs' entry level book before...or are on the cutting edge of graduate level linear algebra research. It's not clear from the post and I suspect that might be an issue. Give me a couple months and I could recite strangs entry level textbook. I passed that class with an A+. But I could not become a PhD level maths student with a linear algebra research focus in that amount of time. There are multiple very different ways to interpret a requirement for being competent in linear algebra. Knowing everything covered in strangs introduction to linear algebra is actually quite low on the potential list of requirements and could be self studied.
throwaway48476 2y ago
What is your definition of qualified.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. What part of the country are you in?
- MisterTea 2y ago
  This. If you're not in or near a major urban center you're going to have to really be attractive to pull people in to work there.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    And if you are near a major urban center pay needs to reflect the HCOL environment or the unpaid commute time.
- edm0nd 2y ago
  a lot of these fed or sec clearance type jobs in VA/Maryland area.
  - UncleOxidant 2y ago
    They talked about manufacturing satellites, some of this aerospace stuff is in Alabama because a senator back in the 60s got some space contracts for the Huntsville area - good luck finding people who want to move to AL. Not saying that the poster is necessarily in AL, but if they are then that could be a reason they're not finding people.
    - EFreethought 2y ago
      Some people say that when you leave Huntsville you enter Alabama. Granted, it is still a red state.
mfer 2y ago
If someone is a software developer who has done non-trivial things and linear algebra but not recently and needs to be refreshed, do you provide time/training to refresh on the math skills?
- sokoloff 2y ago
  I’d imagine that the rusty candidate could refresh themself on linear algebra in what, two three-hour evenings before the interview.
  - lovich 2y ago
    Who’s putting in the work to study for a niche skill set for a place that will pay you less than the market? Normally that kind of requirement leads to _higher_ compensation
  - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
    If you think of it from a return on investment/expected value point of view, why would you ever take time out of your day to refresh yourself on linear algebra and other numerical methods assuming its not out of personal interest just to apply somewhere that already has so many barriers to entry that don't exist elsewhere, on top of admitting it will not pay as much as other positions that would require these skills. I'd rather spend my time focusing on applying at other positions that will pay just as much if not more without being required to spend nights and weekends relearning a skill that is just not used very much elsewhere and not requiring security clearances, and why would I waste my time applying there when other jobs that do require these skills compensate more for the effort. On the other hand if this company did pay closer to Meta salaries (the comparison they used) then it gives all candidates, including US citizens who fit more of their eligibility criteria, that much more incentive to actually relearn these skills and makes the expected return on investment potentially worth it.
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      I agree with you on the overall reasoning, but I conclude that "this job is not worth applying to even if it took 6 seconds of preparation" rather than "this job is not worth applying to because it would take 6 hours of preparation".
WaitWaitWha 2y ago
I understand your struggle. I have worked with US and non-US orgs that are in similar boat. In my experience this is often and at least in part a self-inflicted wound. As you describe your side of the business, it should not restricted, but it is. Maybe? Not enough detail to be certain. What I see time and time again is business not willing to implement proper DLP, labeling and isolation of restricted things. Instead, they just throw everything into a single bucket, because it is quicker, faster, some of the risk and compliance is shifted to third party, and initially cheaper. In short, a US, UK, Aus company that does government contracts will just force everyone into NOFORN, on-prem requirements (because DFARS, CMMC, CE+, Essential 8, or whatever). It is way quicker to do this for entire company than actually label data, isolate environment and resources, and so on.
buckle8017 2y ago
You might believe that you don't make weapons, but nobody else does. You're building satellite components, which I'm quite certain are dual use.
- snakeyjake 2y ago
  The linux kernel is dual-use.
  - buckle8017 2y ago
    This is why you can't hire anybody competent. Maybe try admitting what you're building and justify it as necessary instead. Insulting people's ability to reason is a certain way to repel anybody with a brain.
    - snakeyjake 2y ago
      I used to build fantastic little things the likes of which no human being had ever seen before that have killed many, many, people including (if reports from that side of the company are right, and they are) thousands and thousands of Russians and their tanks. Now I design radar panel assemblies for weather satellites. They're both a good living.
      - yieldcrv 2y ago
        [flagged]
        samatman 2y ago
        Russians are brown now?
        selimthegrim 2y ago
        The East is a delicate matter.
      - 2y ago
p1esk 2y ago
Yes, we pay well. No, we don't pay as much as Meta. How well do you pay? If I were at Meta, my total comp would be 500-600k. I make half that at a small startup. Can you afford me?
- panzagl 2y ago
  No they cannot, unless maybe you have advanced degrees and a couple decades experience.
  - optimiz3 2y ago
    Yeah but then you're too old. Need to be in your 20s with a couple decades of experience.
    - CapeTheory 2y ago
      Calling it now - a leetcode-based kindergarten programme is the next big a16z investment.
    - yazzku 2y ago
      "Hit the ground running."
      - MichaelZuo 2y ago
        You say this ironically, but someone who’s been working hard 15 hours 7 days a week in a niche, 50 weeks a year, from age 15 to age 29 has clearly a much higher potential than a 45 year old following the normal path in life. And almost certainly a higher employable value too unless they have catastrophically bad social skills…
        lovich 2y ago
        Did they develop those social skills during the free time they had?
briffle 2y ago
Do you offer to sponsor people to get their security clearance? many jobs I see in the sysadmin space want someone who already has clearance, and are not willing to do the process of getting someone their clearance.
- ryaniscool 2y ago
  Came here to say this. I have a friend who is a manager for a defense contractor. He says that competition is fierce for people that already have clearance and they can't really hire someone to sponsor them because of how long it takes. There is a 2-3 year wait for obtaining security clearance because of a backlog caused by COVID. The people that have it can write their own ticket and do very little work apparently.
calculatte 2y ago
You didn't name your employer for someone who might be interested. Perhaps visibility is one reason you can't find anyone? I applied to a similar position locally this year. I far exceed their requirements and experience and I got rejected at the application stage. And the same goes for nearly all of other places I applied to. Hiring has most definitely changed over the years. They are not just looking for "qualified applicants". There is something else going on.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
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  - deleted 2y ago
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- wakawaka28 2y ago
  >I applied to a similar position locally this year. I far exceed their requirements and experience and I got rejected at the application stage. Could be "This one is overqualified, we can't pay that much" or "He doesn't have experience in the exact thing we need." Or just that they want a qualified applicant but they've got lots of options.
  - ponow 2y ago
    But then the narrative of "there aren't enough qualified people" collapses, and H1-Bs unjustified.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Then they’d also have to pay more and not have someone they could put under their thumb.
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      I thought that the original comment was about a company that could not fill with H1-Bs yet they didn't contact him either. There are many reasons that he might not be contacted. I think there are plenty of US programmers for jobs that require only US persons. At least, my experience with those jobs has been that being basically qualified is insufficient to get much interest. They're looking for other things, like very particular experience, salary range, security clearance, demographic characteristics, etc.
CoastalCoder 2y ago
> You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. Just to clarify, being a dual U.S. citizen (e.g., U.S.-Canadian, U.S.-Irish) doesn't necessarily prevent a person from obtaining a U.S. "SECRET" security clearance.
pseudocomposer 2y ago
What’s your company? What exactly do you pay? I haven’t done linear algebra in a while but certainly remember enough from graphics programming (and of course physics and linear algebra proper) in undergrad. Feel free to check out and contact me via any of the routes available on my GitHub: https://github.com/JonLatane https://github.com/JonLatane
drivingmenuts 2y ago
> You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. You don't have to get one if you don't want to as there is usually plenty of uncleared work to go around, but you have to be eligible in case that goes away and we need to put you in for a clearance. Y'all should probably make that clear. Usually, the moment I see something like that as a job requirement, I move on. Not because I may or may not qualify, but because I honestly don't remember a lot of the information required and because it's not clear that I can work in a non-weapon-building role. Probably should offer refresher courses in linear algebra - I've been a developer for 25+ years and have never knowingly used it.
dcrazy 2y ago
> You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. This is illegal under IRCA unless another law or government contract mandates it. [1] If every single role at your company requires a Secret clearance, then I question how separate “your part of the company” really is from the part that makes weapons. [1] https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  Obviously this company is a government contractor.
  - dcrazy 2y ago
    Not all government contracts require all employees working on the contract to have clearances or be US citizens.
    - thephyber 2y ago
      I remember visiting a family member’s work (similar industry) and the front office did a screening of me as a visitor to make sure I met those same requirements before I could enter. I’m guessing the contracts that make paper clips don’t need those stringent requirements, but the ones that make sensitive comms equipment do.
      - eigendreams 2y ago
        Large companies (think FAANG) can and do have non cleared, non citizen, non us persons (permanent residents, refugees and asylees) working on such projects with the proper separation of scopes, data access restrictions and so on.
        amalcon 2y ago
        One of my old managers has a story about how he was tasked with documenting an unspecified something for the US government. Because he was not a US citizen (though he was a citizen of a very close US ally), he was then no longer permitted to read the document that he wrote. Probably just lawyers being lawyers, but still pretty funny.
macNchz 2y ago
Do you drug test? Sounds like a place that might. A fairly significant proportion (though definitely not all) of the best developers I've ever worked with would simply pass over places that seem like they would.
- brewdad 2y ago
  You aren't getting a clearance if you can't pass a drug test.
  - pas 2y ago
    Having eligibility is not the same as passing unannounced random drug tests.
  - zifpanachr23 2y ago
    Plenty of people can pass a drug test. That's not the issue I guarantee it. It might slightly help their hiring but it's not the root cause of difficulties, and I seriously doubt compensation is a root cause either.
  - veggieroll 2y ago
    I don't do drugs; I barely even drink alcohol. But, I think drug testing is a violation of privacy and none of a company's business. This isn't 1950, nobody cares if you're doing drugs on your personal time as long as you're sober for work. Yes, you need to drug test for clearance. But I'm saying that's a job I'm not applying to unless I have no other choice. It goes straight to the bottom of the pile for me.
    - retox 2y ago
      My understand is that it comes down how likely it is that the employee could be bought/blackmailed/corrupted. A person with a drug (or gambling) habit could be blackmailed or might need more money to fuel their addiction, making them susceptible to a foreign power buying their support. Same reason for homosexuality in the past when it was illegal/scandalous.
michaelsshaw 2y ago
>You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance Nope. Not doing it. Not going to argue politics, but this is a huge RED FLAG for a lot of people. And I feel I don't need to submit to mandatory drug testing as well. >The most harmful thing the products I build do is quantify in precise detail how climate change is dooming us all Then why is it classified? How separate is your branch from the weapons branch, that you acknowledge exists?
- snake42 2y ago
  A security clearance doesn't necessarily mean you have to take drug tests. You do fill out paperwork about your previous drug usage though.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    If you admit to past drug use they're going to drug test you.
    - snake42 2y ago
      Not in my experience.
- echoangle 2y ago
  > Then why is it classified? How separate is your branch from the weapons branch, that you acknowledge exists? There's a lot of dual-use stuff that's not used for military applications but could be by another actor. Dual-use means that it could be used for civilian and military applications, not that it actually is. So if I build a revolutionary weather radar that could be used for military reconnaissance by Iran if the technology came out, but the US military isn't interested because they already have something better, it would be completely civilian but classified.
  - michaelsshaw 2y ago
    >Dual-use means that it could be used for civilian and military applications, not that it actually is. This brings forward some cognitive dissonance in me. I love the open source ethics, especially the "ANYONE CAN USE THIS FOR ANY PURPOSE" tagline. But, personally, I do not want any military (especially the US military) to find any usefulness out of my projects. I'm not sure on the legal aspects of it, but if there was an SPDX-License-Identifier for GPL-3.0-NO-MILITARY (or something similar, you get the point), I'd use it on everything.
ponector 2y ago
So many contradictions! You pay well, but not so much. You search for qualified applicants but can hire a student. You require linear algebra but ok with technical writer. Looks like your managers don't know who they need to hire or don't want to really hire.
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > Looks like your managers don't know who they need to hire or don't want to really hire. It's prevalent in government-adjacent companies. It's all a completely opaque byzantine system to mask the nepotism and the fact that a lot of those people just siphon money from the government like it's a jobs programs. Not to mention that their application systems are usually complete garbage like Workday or Taleo.
  - vasco 2y ago
    The defense industry _is_ a jobs program, I thought this was clear to everyone. It's cheaper than keeping all the vets on the payroll directly and also cheaper than letting them become another homeless crisis on top of the existing one.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Defense contractors are usually located in out of the way places. If you work for the USAF Lab in Rome, NY, you make less than a Facebook intern, but the only guy richer than you in town is the state trooper with overtime. They are also stable gigs with good benefits.
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    Yeah, but you also have to live in Rome, NY. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to live in a major city; but being _near_ one is pretty handy. And if the job doesn't pan out, then being in Rome, NY means your options for the next job are extremely limited. Unless your family is ok with uprooting and moving (probably _again_), the pay to move to Rome for a job would need to be catastrophically large to lure me there.
b8 2y ago
Defense contractors have loads of entry level jobs, but most require you already have a clearance (e.g. wanting US Army 17c or IC vets) or certifications which cost $500+ plus. Many don't sponsor a clearance, because it takes a long time, high chance of the application not passing and because they may just use you to get a clearance and job hop to a higher paying job. Defense contractor jobs are the only ones I've seen that haven't been outsourced overseas yet, but good luck getting a CJO for one that will sponsor a clearance and actually getting cleared. A top tier three letter agency sponsored me for TS SCI FSP and it took 9 months after the conditional job offer (CJO) after 10+ offers of personal interviews with me not counting my old jobs, college and friends/acquaintances just for them to cancel my app for "other traits, conduct or behaviour" and to reapply after a year. I heard other applicants on the free bus ride that it was their 3rd or 4th try at the polygraph or that the agency forgot about them so they had to a Congressional inquiry after 2 attempts prior etc. It's a lot of BS and I've tried for a few years now to work for the federal government and military, but they just don't want me. I've given way more effort than normal folks, so honestly screw them.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  Amen, good to see it wasnt just me. My last job search was this summer and I hit this all over. I'm fine with working for a defense contractor or the feds. I'm fine with taking a pay haircut relative to FAANG to do something meaningful. I'm even fine with commuting, and the agencies poking into my life to assess a clearance. But I need to move from one job to another without a gap. Private sector employers won't touch me without a clearance, and in my part of the world there are lots of people who already have one, so I'm not worth their time. The US government would put me through a clearance, but their hiring practices are so slow and arcane that they're just not viable for someone who needs to find a job starting say in the next 30 days. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. So, I stay in the uncleared commercial sector.
0086b416f103 2y ago
> We cannot find qualified applicants. Your company is incompetent. I've applied to hundreds of companies like yours within Huntsville, AL in the past year, rejected or ghosted all the time. Defense morons will talk about how hard their work is and how they can't find anyone to do it. Completely skip over how prevalent affirmative action is in their hiring process; who were you guys interviewing in 2020? Why is the defense small business base completely dominated by veterans who stack 10% disability ratings and minorities with a preferred SBA sticker on their website? Complete joke of an industry.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  that's an assumption its just as likely that their process is auto-rejecting candidates and nobody has looked yet "After his HR department hadn't found a single candidate for a job, the manager submitted his own resume. It was auto-rejected." syndicated here https://www.yourtango.com/self/manager-proves-hr-system-auto-rejecting-candidates-using-own-resume https://www.yourtango.com/self/manager-proves-hr-system-auto... and the associated reddit comment that the articles are based off here https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1f8x5ma/comment/llhpub8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1f8x5ma/comment/l... this is likely the more common practice
  - chefandy 2y ago
    Not commenting on the rest of their assumptions, but to be clear, auto-rejecting candidates that could reasonably fill roles in your company isn’t a defense against incompetence accusations— it supports them.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      I was referring to the discrimination rant even candidates that might fit a poorly implemented affirmative action program are likely getting auto-rejected nobody knows if its helpful to mention their race or disability, or whether its hurtful
xerxesaa 2y ago
I'm a U.S. citizen and I've applied to plenty of these types of jobs. Had an offer at Palantir previously but would not take that now due to ethical concerns. I'm an older worker in management. Willing to be hands on. Not looking to get paid as much as Meta (I've worked there too) but also don't want something that pays peanuts. Willing to relocate to many places. Genuinely curious where I can find such jobs.
- snake42 2y ago
  For clearance specific kinds of jobs, I use https://www.clearancejobs.com/ https://www.clearancejobs.com/
  - yazzku 2y ago
    It would be good to have a "no military" filter. Results would probably come out empty anyway.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      I think many Aerospace jobs that aren't directly Defense/Military (think SpaceX Falcon 9 flight control development) are also behind clearance. Of course you will indirectly help launch military satellites but I wouldn't call it a military job exactly.
  - the_arun 2y ago
    Don’t we first need security clearance before applying to these jobs? Or at the time of joining the company helps us to get clearance?
    - simoncion 2y ago
      Some employers will pay the cost to get a security clearance. Others will not. IME, employers will tell you in the job description which kind of employer they are. "Must have a currently active $TYPE clearance." and "Must be eligible for a $TYPE clearance; position contingent on acquiring a $TYPE clearance." are the sorts of phrases to look for.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
I once worked in defense as well and it could be that the pay is insultingly low with immense hassle and responsibility (do this thing wrong and you goto jail). I'll only consider going back if a new major conflict starts.
dec0dedab0de 2y ago
I passed on a bunch of jobs that required clearance, because getting it sounded like a nightmare. Your paragraph at the end sounds like maybe your company culture is also a problem.
tgma 2y ago
> We cannot find qualified applicants > No, we don’t pay as much as Meta. So, essentially, you are seeking special treatment from US citizens. I’m not saying this is always unreasonable, but you’re in the territory of a centrally planned economic decision, and in the US philosophy that is supposed to be done minimally. Maybe the right thing is for your company to shut down or change their line of business, freeing up the labor for Meta.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  There are 4.8 million developers in the US most of them are not making Meta salaries and I would say that 80% will never see 200K inflation adjusted in thier lives. Instead of going to levels.fyi go to salary.com and choose any major city in the US that is not on the west coast. No most developers don’t get RSUs or anything else aside from their salaries and maybe a bonus. And before someone replies that I’m “bitter”. No I’m good, I’m 50. I did my stint at BigTech and I don’t have the shit tolerance level to deal with the politics of any large company.
  - tgma 2y ago
    You are actually proving my point. If there are 4.8 million developers who are not commanding Meta salaries, and they "pay well" it should be fairly straightforward to get labor. It's simple: the more picky you are the more you will have to pay. The GP admitted the upper bound of Meta, which is a company that is sustainably operating in the same country. If you cannot compete in a labor market, either raise your product pricing or be more efficient. If not, you will make less profit and/or go out of business, which is an appropriate outcome most of the time. No one is entitled to their business model.
    - pixl97 2y ago
      I think the other part of the problem is no one in software wants to work in Huntsville. There are numerous reasons why AL sucks.
      - 2y ago
hankchinaski 2y ago
In other words you are looking for people who are willing to get paid less what they are worth
DanAtC 2y ago
Security clearances are a giant hassle. Why go through all that for less than FAANG pay?
- yazzku 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tiznow 2y ago
    sorry, what's GP here?
    - loeg 2y ago
      Grandparent comment.
monksy 2y ago
So do you discriminate against people that consume substances, on their own unpaid time, legal in the location they live at? > You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. You don't have to get one if you don't want to as there is usually plenty of uncleared work to go around, but you have to be eligible in case that goes away and we need to put you in for a clearance.
shiroiushi 2y ago
Where is your workplace located? Perhaps it's in a crappy place that no one wants to live in, and you should look at relocating.
soyoudontsay 2y ago
[flagged]
colechristensen 2y ago
I've looked at jobs at places like this (some requiring quite high clearance) and the pay is hilariously bad, and I don't make anywhere near peak FAANG rates (or work in FAANG) 50% pay cut for a DevOps/SRE role requiring a Q clearance (DoE version of Top Secret I think) You can't find employees because the job isn't exciting (you're probably not NASA) and the pay is bad. Maybe your recruiters are bad too.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  They're probably located way out in the sticks too. Who wants to pack up all their stuff and sell their house and move to the rural deep South for a job that may or may not work out long-term? And if it doesn't work out, they now have to sell the house they bought there (because there's nothing decent in that area on the rental market) and move cross-country yet again?
brandonmenc 2y ago
> Yes, we pay well. Not enough, apparently. > No, you can't work remotely. You'll have to pay even more for this. > No, we don't pay as much as Meta. So again, not enough.
biztos 2y ago
Not to pile on, but if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job and not some manager’s mistaken idea of a proxy for more general talent, then you’re hiring specialists and the pool will not be that large. People who remember all their math and enjoy it and can also code, are also very employable at all the AI companies and departments, including at Meta. And how do you know if someone’s eligible for security clearance without applying for it? (Other than the obvious “be a US citizen, don’t be a spy” part.)
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Isn’t linear algebra heavily used in machine learning and computer graphics (not just know it, but be able to wield it proficiently)? So ya, the talent probably exists, but they hit the “these engineers are making half a million a year to do something else” problem.
  - biztos 2y ago
    Yes, exactly, I would (naïvely) assume it's common among e.g. ML specialists, who are in high demand and thus hard to recruit. I'm sure there are a lot, but if I had to extrapolate from experience ("OK, who's good at math, hands up?") I would say it's less than 20% of coder genpop.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bravura 2y ago
    There is a lot of published research work in ML that had huge impact without explicitly touching linear algebra. Given that is the case, to answer your question: yes, linear algebra is the foundation of ML. No, a lot of impactful day-to-day ML engineering can be done without touching linear algebra. This is how assembly is the basis of compilation and programming. But you probably are going to get a whole lot of work done without ever using it. It's generally a nice flex when applicants can code assembly, and usually a yellow-flag when the company suggests they require knowledge of assembly. To me, my eyebrows raise when an industry person mentions linear algebra. I'm just saying the odds are really low that you actually use it.
jtcurlin 2y ago
I’ve applied to a variety of your positions each cycle for the past 3 years. New grad, clearance-eligible US citizen from a mid-range state school with a historically strong defense/gov. connection. I have multiple internships, a math minor, and my standout project is a rendering engine with a physics/collision system. I’ve never had or expected a remote option, and 70k (outside of the extreme-COL areas) sounds fantastic. Your company has never offered me a phone screening. Seeing claims that Northrop is in sort of qualified candidate crisis when myself and many applicants I know of similar profiles are lucky to get so much as a rejection email is borderline infuriating.
phkahler 2y ago
What city or state?
sigbottle 2y ago
:/ Never got into embedded programming or engineering, maybe I should though. Invested too many of my math skills in theoretical computer science Never too late to learn etc. etc.
atlgator 2y ago
The pool of Americans that can qualify for a clearance is very small. You'd be surprised how many people have poor credit, bad debt, foreclosures, foreign connections, drug use and/or arrest history. It's not a fair comparison to the applicant pool available to your typical industry business. When I got my TS out of college, the OPM agent went to my old frat house and interviewed people at random, then went to my girlfriend's sorority house and interviewed random people there. It can be brutal.
- foobiekr 2y ago
  past drug use does not preclude a clearance (edited)
  - atlgator 2y ago
    It absolutely can. Depends on the drug and when it was last used, if you had any drug-related incidents or court ordered rehabilitation.
    - foobiekr 2y ago
      That’s going beyond simple use. The two year lookback is real but nobody is going to fail a basic clearance over college pot use.
      - atlgator 2y ago
        I didn’t say anything about pot. I said drug. That’s any illicit drug or controlled substance including prescription misuse. The look back for declaration is 7 years, not 2, and generally you are auto denied if use was within the last 12 months, college or not.
        stonemetal12 2y ago
        >I didn’t say anything about pot. I said drug. That’s any illicit drug or controlled substance including prescription misuse. Pot is still illegal at the federal level where a clearance would be taking place.
mint2 2y ago
What’s your companies general location? Do you have an office where tech talent wants to work? Location is an important part of a competitive employment offer. And I highly doubt linear algebra is a day to day requirement for a typical worker. Sounds like a case of expecting chauffeurs to know how to build a drive train from scratch.
klipklop 2y ago
> Yes, we pay well. Let's hear some numbers for junior, mid and senior. I bet they are not great.
sensanaty 2y ago
I'm not USAian, but everything you described to me makes the job sound miserable, especially compared to the competition. The clearance I won't comment on, as I have no clue what it involves. Presumably though, this means randomized drug tests which is IMO a complete violation of privacy. Also, I'm probably wrong but it gives me the impression that despite your reassurance that you aren't building weapons systems, ya kinda are. And as you said, a part of your company makes weapons. That will automatically cause many people to be disinterested, for better or worse. > Ghost positions In my experience, gov't jobs are the worst when it comes to fake job postings that only exist as a cover for internal promos. Might be different in the states, but I doubt it. > Yes, we are willing to train someone who is motivated. We won't re-teach linear algebra... Wait, so will you train them or not? You won't refresh someone on linear algebra which most people haven't touched since their uni days, but you'll put a technical writer through university to become an engineer? Which one is it? Then later on you say the algebra thing is a hard requirement. How do these statements make sense together? > Can't work remotely This is an automatic disqualifier for many people, for many reasons. I get that you're working with space hardware in clean rooms, but if this means people have to move to the middle of nowhere (or just move, period) and commute for 2 hours each way, then you're disqualifying tons of people, when their alternative is a job where they can work remotely with all the benefits that entails. I'd personally rather be dead than be forced to commute ever again. > We pay well Define well? Especially with everything else I commented on, is it really "well", if they can join a much less frustrating job and get paid more? Also you sound quite snarky about working at Meta. I'm no fan of FAANG, but if we're talking compensation, I think the snark is unwarranted given the situation. > We expect programmers to remember linear algebra and have more than the ability to shovel frameworks on top of each other... Again, snarkiness and derision. A bit of a dumb position to take when you're admitting that the easier job not only pays (dramatically) more, but has better conditions (remote work, no clearance-related BS) as well. No wonder you can't find qualified individuals, your comment alone makes it sound like a miserable job where you're working for bean counters that want to inspect the cloudiness of your piss while forcing you to waste half your life driving to the office and back without extra compensation, while they get to see other, less skilled engineers "glue frameworks together" for double the pay and quadruple the happiness. And I find it rich to comment on advertisers when your company makes weapons that literally kill people. Something about reaper missiles and glass houses comes to mind here.
beambot 2y ago
> Yes, we pay well. Prove it. What city are you in, and what is total comp for software engineer & hardware engineer with 20 years of experience? I worked in national defense. It was a pain in the ass: shit pay, worst politics, massive tolerance for incompetence & mediocrity, meeting hell, and secrecy (necessary, but "need to know" gatekeeping wasnt at times).
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  Why would I work in person for less money when I can work remote? For in person work on critical applications like satellites, I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top. Consider that most midsize tech companies are going to pay staff level 200k or above and ask how the company in question compares, before pricing in the crushing inflexibility of in person work.
  - nativeit 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - briandear 2y ago
      Defense contractors don’t give the government a discount for “fulfilling and meaningful” projects. It’s “f-you, pay me.” Why should employees of that industry give the employer a discount?
    - 5ADBEEF 2y ago
      the average defense job is the exact opposite of fulfilling and meaningful
      - rcpt 2y ago
        Not if you like showing roughly the same set of slides 5x per week in meetings with roughly the same set of people in each one
    - SauciestGNU 2y ago
kennyloginz 2y ago
Hi, How can I get in touch with your hiring department?
profsummergig 2y ago
Curious re: "linear algebra". What kind of understanding is needed? A basic understanding? It's a vast and unending subject. And there are well known software apps that do linear algebra these days. Do you folks use a particular software to do it? Engineering Technician: what does an hour in the life of such work look like? Thanks.
- touisteur 2y ago
  Later on GP talks about radar, so I'd guess probably at least the basics, convolution, matrix multiplication, and some inverse methods (evd, svd, cholesky...). Not just implementing but understanding what it does, a bit ?
fn-mote 2y ago
Wow, I was all ready to look you up in your profile ... until I read all of the follow-up responses. I knew it was too good to be true.
teeray 2y ago
> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant Why not? Isn’t this just part of your ramp-up if it’s a niche qualification? We re-teach networking to developers who probably forgot it—that’s a semester course, easily. If you’re not willing to invest in candidates that are 90% of the way there, then you’re perpetually going to have difficulty hiring.
crystal_revenge 2y ago
> We cannot find qualified applicants. It's not just that you're restricted to US Citizens. You point out all the issues in your post: > You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance So, even though I'm adult and it's legal in my state, I can't smoke weed now and then? Oh and depending on the project may be subject to a polygraph... sounds fun! > No, we don't make weapons for the military. Every.. government... defense... contractor has this speech. Why even pretend that you're not in the war business, which ultimately means killing people? Honestly I would be more comfortable working for an org that wasn't afraid to admit what they do. Making moral compromises is not uncommon in tech, and I don't judge people that choose to do so, but I do judge those that pretend that they're not. > No, you can't work remotely. I've worked remotely virtually my entire career, including for the Federal government. You may have a good reason for this requirement, but it absolutely shrinks your pool. You don't even mention location, but I'm guessing it's not in a top city like NYC or SF. > Yes, we pay well. And yet you never give a range. Last time I worked for a DARPA contractor, Google (this was the earlier days) basically hired every elite member of the R&D team in a weekend (exaggerating here, but not much) since both the pay and work was drastically better. > One issue is that we expect programmers to remember linear algebra Ah great, unjustified ego to boot! I'm sold! I'm a US Citizen, work in a remote small company doing opensource work largely for the good of the world, likely paid roughly the same, it's nobody's business if I want to smoke weed, and most of the team has a quantitative PhDs (but would blush to mention it) and those that don't could easily teach a course on linear algebra. I'm just one engineer, but I can't imagine applying at company like you describe. You might have better success hiring qualified applicants if you at least admitted how unattractive such a place is to the many engineers I've work ed with who use linear algebra everyday and tried to find some compromise.
inamberclad 2y ago
Ball?
csomar 2y ago
> Yes, we pay well. > No, we don't pay as much as Meta. Are you saying you pay well as comparing to the local McDonalds? That being said, my guess you can't find "qualified applicants" is because you are putting too many restrictions and paying too little. So you end up with students who will take anything and then you come here to complain about the lack of talent.
- allarm 2y ago
  > No, we don't pay as much as Meta. >> Are you saying you pay well as comparing to the local McDonalds? That's just disgusting.
ramrunner0xff 2y ago
similarly i am in this ridiculous position. I am a security engineer, wanting to work in vulnerability research. Got an EB2-NIW green card due to my skills being valuable for the national interest. Can't even get an interview because all vulnerability researcher positions require TS clearance... I guess i will just have to wait 4 more years for the citizenship, but it's a pity.
choppaface 2y ago
> We cannot find qualified applicants. By chance has your employer posted on HN who’s hiring?
loeg 2y ago
A lot of people don't want to have to get a security clearance for a mediocre pay job.
remarkEon 2y ago
>No, we don't pay as much as Meta. Ah, well. Nevertheless...
randmeerkat 2y ago
> We cannot find qualified applicants. What’s the name of your employer?
eigendreams 2y ago
By definition a US Person would not have a visa, since that qualifier only applies to US nationals, permanent residents (which do not need nor have a visa, permanent residents do not apply for admission after status is granted), refugees or asylees.
RHSeeger 2y ago
> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant but we will pay a tech writer to go to school nights/weekends to get a degree in engineering (me, I did that). Why? Linear Algebra is certainly something that can be learned faster than a degree in engineering. I expect the average software developer (someone that can understand algorithms) can achieve competency in less than a semester's worth of time. If someone is a good developer, learning specific skills sets for the domain is pretty normal.
mcmcmc 2y ago
The hard truth is that too many people can’t pass the drug test required for security clearance, and that does narrow your applicant pool.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
llm_trw 2y ago
>You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. Having had to go through one of those: yeah no shit. Not everyone enjoys a colonoscopy without anesthesia. >You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. I do, a keg at any rate, but given that I can't get a security clearance because of the people I hung out to build one - yeah.
achenet 2y ago
I'm a programmer, I know linear algebra (I actually have a master's degree in maths). I grew up in Houston, lived there from 1998 to 2010, but never got a citizenship owing to some of my father's medical issues disqualifying us from a green card. If you're willing to sponsor me for a green card and wait five years, and you're located in a city I'd actually like to live, I might come work for you :)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mr_toad 2y ago
> programmers to remember linear algebra Programmers who know linear algebra probably also know basic calculus & stats, so now you’re competing with companies hiring ML engineers.
briandear 2y ago
If you doubled the pay you’d probably have more applicants than you could ever hope for. And why don’t you pay as much as Meta? The defense industrial complex can pay retired generals massive salaries to sit on boards, they can hire the most expensive lobbyists on the Hill. The defense department specifically can’t even pass an audit. They have so much money going out that they can’t even count it. And let’s take Raytheon for example, have you seen the operating margins? They’re huge. So even with these “critical shortages,” somehow they are immensely profitable. If shortages are affecting those margins, then there should be plenty of money to pay “critical” people more. Revenue per employee at Raytheon for example is almost $420,000. For typical manufacturing companies, a “good” number is $300,000. So a “critical” employee is worth a lot more than they’re being paid and there are probably a lot of employees that are dead weight and keeping them around means less money to pay the shortage areas. I once applied to work a government project for a subcontractor and they were adding “headcount” simply because the terms of the subcontract required a specific number of people regardless of the amount of work required. They were essentially hiring people to do almost nothing. I spent over 3 months waiting for a response. Apparently their critical shortage wasn’t that critical because the hiring process was so long and convoluted and subject to “contract renewals,” that I simply gave up and went to work for someone else. I could go on for days about the extreme waste and oftentimes outright fraud that happens in government contracting, subcontracting, and sub-sub contracting. And despite formerly having a TS/SCI clearance, any job in the “McLean Area,” pays less than most startups. And jobs in places like Huntsville pay even less. Even overseas work in “austere” environments pays less than a junior developer at Stripe. And you don’t get potentially shot at at Stripe — And I don’t have to work 100 levels deep for contractors or contractors of contractors on site using often circa 1996 development practices and lowest-bidder equipment managed by IT departments that seem to be led by dinosaurs and it can take weeks or months to simply requisition a dev server even within an unclassified cloud environment. Why to do that for salaries/benefits that are lower than I could get as a janitor at Netflix? Make the workplace/work environment and benefits compelling and you’ll get more applicants. Small startups literally have better benefits. You also don’t have to endure a Tier 5 investigation — the outcome of which entitles you to a job that pays so little comparatively.
hilux 2y ago
> No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. FYI, a "US person" means a US citizen or a Permanent Resident.
ponow 2y ago
Define competence. What fraction of graduates in EE and CS from top 50 schools would you regard as competent?
newsclues 2y ago
Have you tried recruiting people in school in mathematics programs? You’ve repeatedly mentioned being unwilling to train linear algebra skills, but will train other things, so go recruit math nerds.
grumple 2y ago
What you’re saying just doesn’t jive with the experience devs have when applying for jobs. You hear horror stories about juniors applying for hundreds of jobs. They are absolutely qualified for entry level work - they have CS degrees. I have experienced applying for dozens, including those posted to HN: most won’t respond at all. Maybe months later you’ll get an auto-reject message. Or you’ll go through several interviews not to be selected, even while passing technical assessments. My colleagues and friends have similar experiences.
miningape 2y ago
> ISO certified clean room in their house Well it's not ISO certified, and its more of a box than a room. But yes I do actually have access to a sterile (not sanitised) environment at home. I can't work for you on account of my SA citizenship though. It looks like my only option to get that kind of clearance is to start my own company.
greentxt 2y ago
Look, by "won't reteach" you give it away. Those who are not rusty in linear algebra will tend to be recent grads, younger people who are probably not looking for a boring defense job with no remote somewhere in Alabama. Those jobs appeal to people who may have had enough time to forget how to implement a SVD without googling.
- Jcampuzano2 2y ago
  Alternatively the developers who do remember and use linear algebra many years into their career or even more advanced math/numerical methods and are also interested in using it are in higher demand than ever before due to the explosion of ML/AI, and thus can command a much higher salary. The simple answer is always they simply don't pay enough to attract the people with this skillset. If they paid as much as Meta (who they used as an example) they would certainly have way less issues with hiring.
  - greentxt 2y ago
    On the latter point I agree completely, on the former--demand for mid-late career quant types, I want to agree but also think we'll need to wait and see because current AI will lower a lot of bars, and as you acknowledge it's all about money ultimately.
rgbrenner 2y ago
We cannot find qualified applicants. ... [a bunch of requirements] ... No, we don't pay as much as Meta. ... [some more requirements] The shortage on $5000 ferarris continues as well.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  I work in the space. You are massively understating the difficulty of finding candidates willing to get a security clearance, and the cost to the company of sponsoring those clearances. It's not as simple as the compensation number alone.
  - rgbrenner 2y ago
    sounds like you have a requirement that filters out a lot of people. typically when things get rarer they get more expensive.
  - sneed_chucker 2y ago
    Yeah, no surprise. Getting a clearance sucks. It takes forever and you're subjected to very intrusive scrutiny as well as potentially psychological tomfoolery like polygraphs. Why would a qualified individual subject themselves to that unless they have no other option. There's a reason clearance jobs have a reputation as make-work for ex service members.
  - GenerWork 2y ago
    >You are massively understating the difficulty of finding candidates willing to get a security clearance, and the cost to the company of sponsoring those clearances. I find this hard to believe. I'd totally get a security clearance, but no company seemingly offers it, they only want people who have a pre-existing clearance.
    - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
      Well that’s the second half of the issue with clearances, they cost the company a fortune to sponsor.
antonvs 2y ago
Since more skilled immigration can't solve the requirement, what is it you think would help? > You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them This sounds like an excuse. You think it's completely impossible to write code for some embedded device, robot, whatever remotely? Hire some cheaper remote hands, set up some telework equipment, voila now you can hire from all over the country. I did development for a scanning optical microscope, was only once even in the same room with one, and even then never got to touch it. Of course once that issue is eliminated, the security theater one will be raised next. People might be working from their bed next to a Russian honeypot or whatever. National security types tend to have vivid imaginations in that respect, and have to justify all their rules to themselves. The end result? "We can't find qualified applicants." Btw I'm technically qualified, and in no way a security risk to the US, but you wouldn't be allowed to hire me. Perhaps the feds should figure out a way of doing security screening for foreign nationals. "Must be a citizen" seems like lazy bureaucratic BS. As if citizens can't be security risks?!
jfwuasdfs 2y ago
> Yes, we have extensive high school and college work-study/internships and participants make $72k/yr This is below COL in many areas. If you increase this to 125k like Bucees then you should be able to draw in more candidates.
Jcampuzano2 2y ago
Without concrete numbers, all of this is worthless. How much do you pay for the roles you have a shortage, and where are you located so it can be compared with the market rate. If your pay is anywhere below minimum 75th but more realistically 90th percent market rate in your area your answer is obvious and you are just BSing or your employer is gaslighting you to keep pay down. All the criteria (required security clearance, no opportunities for remote work, knowledge of skills not used very much outside of schooling without allowances for relearning on the job, only US citizens, etc) you listed automatically creates a hurdle to entry that isn't made up for without significantly higher pay than market rate.
DiggyJohnson 2y ago
Sounds like we work in similar worlds. I completely agree with your experience. I think its a balanced mixture of compensation and qualified applicants.
sir0010010 2y ago
Hello! Say a developer applied with ~10 years experience without a technical or quantitative degree but have self studied and feel they have a solid understanding of linear algebra using textbooks and online resources such as the Strang course from Opencourseware - would you still interview someone in this situation?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
0xffff2 2y ago
> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. This is just plain wrong. I'm wrapping up on a project where I wrote significant chunks of the flight software for a moon rover while being 99% remote. If you're requiring software engineers to be onsite regularly for non-cleared work, your process sucks, no exceptions. ETA: By the way, I personally only went fully remote due to covid (although I moved away from the office and have no plans to return), but some of my coworkers have been remote for well over a decade, and this is a government agency. I've seen way better setups in private industry.
rurp 2y ago
As a counterpoint I've been involved with several companies in recent years that did not have a particularly difficult time hiring similar candidates. The only clear difference was that these jobs were remote friendly. It's impossible to say for sure from the outside but a few factors that might be making it difficult for you to hire: - A lot of tech workers value remote work these days. - You aren't based in a location with a large enough talent pool for the work you do. - Your company doesn't pay as well as you think, or has other details that turn off some potential applicants. - It could be variance. There's a lot of randomness in the job market.
chipsrafferty 2y ago
You can't find qualified applicants to work on poor quality technology.
AlchemistCamp 2y ago
> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant but we will pay a tech writer to go to school nights/weekends to get a degree in engineering (me, I did that). Do you consider developer applicants who learned linear algebra on their own or through a product like Math Academy? Google, MS and other large tech companies do.
michaelcampbell 2y ago
> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. I get that this is a legitimate requirement here, but in many companies it just isn't. And this is a huge limiting factor. The way housing is nowdays, no way I'm moving for a job without a relo package. This isn't necessarily "we can't find qualified applicants", but rather "...that we will pay enough to make this switch"
know-how 2y ago
[dead]
MrSkelter 2y ago
This is a flaw in the system. Candidates from 5-eyes partners should be able to get any clearance necessary. I know from experience that Lockheed has a lot of non US nationals working on secret projects which require clearance. During the F-35 program a ton of Brits were involved, both for the avionics components made in the UK, and as test pilots for VTOl (where Brits were preferred given Harrier experience and their acknowledged skill as the best pilots of that type). I don’t know why Brits, Canadians, kiwis and Aussies can’t get cleared for you guys. They are getting cleared at every level all the time. NSA, CIA, etc.
Slava_Propanei 2y ago
[dead]

taurath 2y ago

[flagged]

pizzalife 2y ago

>No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. You are not a US person as a visa holder. You are however a US person if you have permanent residency (green card).

geertj 2y ago

Why linear algebra? Honest question, i have not seen this as a specific requirement before.

jmb99 2y ago
It can be inferred that they’re making satellites, or at least satellite components. It’s pretty likely that vector math will be involved in some of the software being written in that context. In particular, if anything they write involves navigation (which is a lot of things when it comes to satellites, from actually maneuvering to observation correction) you need to have a pretty good understanding of linear algebra to write good software. And aerospace isn’t an industry where you want someone relying on google for mission-critical logic.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Sure, but there's a huge spectrum between "mild competence" and "can recite strang's verbatim". My experience is that companies emphasizing specific math skills beyond normal professional baselines typically expect the latter despite usually offering the same (or lower) salaries than the former.
  - zifpanachr23 2y ago
    strang's would be something that is entry level in terms of linear algebra. I think they should clarify whether they want somebody that has passed a linear algebra class with high marks based on something like strangs' entry level book before...or are on the cutting edge of graduate level linear algebra research. It's not clear from the post and I suspect that might be an issue. Give me a couple months and I could recite strangs entry level textbook. I passed that class with an A+. But I could not become a PhD level maths student with a linear algebra research focus in that amount of time. There are multiple very different ways to interpret a requirement for being competent in linear algebra. Knowing everything covered in strangs introduction to linear algebra is actually quite low on the potential list of requirements and could be self studied.

throwaway48476 2y ago

What is your definition of qualified.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. What part of the country are you in?

MisterTea 2y ago
This. If you're not in or near a major urban center you're going to have to really be attractive to pull people in to work there.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  And if you are near a major urban center pay needs to reflect the HCOL environment or the unpaid commute time.
edm0nd 2y ago
a lot of these fed or sec clearance type jobs in VA/Maryland area.
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  They talked about manufacturing satellites, some of this aerospace stuff is in Alabama because a senator back in the 60s got some space contracts for the Huntsville area - good luck finding people who want to move to AL. Not saying that the poster is necessarily in AL, but if they are then that could be a reason they're not finding people.
  - EFreethought 2y ago
    Some people say that when you leave Huntsville you enter Alabama. Granted, it is still a red state.

mfer 2y ago

If someone is a software developer who has done non-trivial things and linear algebra but not recently and needs to be refreshed, do you provide time/training to refresh on the math skills?

sokoloff 2y ago
I’d imagine that the rusty candidate could refresh themself on linear algebra in what, two three-hour evenings before the interview.
- lovich 2y ago
  Who’s putting in the work to study for a niche skill set for a place that will pay you less than the market? Normally that kind of requirement leads to _higher_ compensation
- Jcampuzano2 2y ago
  If you think of it from a return on investment/expected value point of view, why would you ever take time out of your day to refresh yourself on linear algebra and other numerical methods assuming its not out of personal interest just to apply somewhere that already has so many barriers to entry that don't exist elsewhere, on top of admitting it will not pay as much as other positions that would require these skills. I'd rather spend my time focusing on applying at other positions that will pay just as much if not more without being required to spend nights and weekends relearning a skill that is just not used very much elsewhere and not requiring security clearances, and why would I waste my time applying there when other jobs that do require these skills compensate more for the effort. On the other hand if this company did pay closer to Meta salaries (the comparison they used) then it gives all candidates, including US citizens who fit more of their eligibility criteria, that much more incentive to actually relearn these skills and makes the expected return on investment potentially worth it.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    I agree with you on the overall reasoning, but I conclude that "this job is not worth applying to even if it took 6 seconds of preparation" rather than "this job is not worth applying to because it would take 6 hours of preparation".

WaitWaitWha 2y ago

I understand your struggle. I have worked with US and non-US orgs that are in similar boat. In my experience this is often and at least in part a self-inflicted wound. As you describe your side of the business, it should not restricted, but it is. Maybe? Not enough detail to be certain. What I see time and time again is business not willing to implement proper DLP, labeling and isolation of restricted things. Instead, they just throw everything into a single bucket, because it is quicker, faster, some of the risk and compliance is shifted to third party, and initially cheaper. In short, a US, UK, Aus company that does government contracts will just force everyone into NOFORN, on-prem requirements (because DFARS, CMMC, CE+, Essential 8, or whatever). It is way quicker to do this for entire company than actually label data, isolate environment and resources, and so on.

buckle8017 2y ago

You might believe that you don't make weapons, but nobody else does. You're building satellite components, which I'm quite certain are dual use.

snakeyjake 2y ago
The linux kernel is dual-use.
- buckle8017 2y ago
  This is why you can't hire anybody competent. Maybe try admitting what you're building and justify it as necessary instead. Insulting people's ability to reason is a certain way to repel anybody with a brain.
  - snakeyjake 2y ago
    I used to build fantastic little things the likes of which no human being had ever seen before that have killed many, many, people including (if reports from that side of the company are right, and they are) thousands and thousands of Russians and their tanks. Now I design radar panel assemblies for weather satellites. They're both a good living.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - samatman 2y ago
        Russians are brown now?
        selimthegrim 2y ago
        The East is a delicate matter.
    - 2y ago

p1esk 2y ago

Yes, we pay well. No, we don't pay as much as Meta. How well do you pay? If I were at Meta, my total comp would be 500-600k. I make half that at a small startup. Can you afford me?

panzagl 2y ago
No they cannot, unless maybe you have advanced degrees and a couple decades experience.
- optimiz3 2y ago
  Yeah but then you're too old. Need to be in your 20s with a couple decades of experience.
  - CapeTheory 2y ago
    Calling it now - a leetcode-based kindergarten programme is the next big a16z investment.
  - yazzku 2y ago
    "Hit the ground running."
    - MichaelZuo 2y ago
      You say this ironically, but someone who’s been working hard 15 hours 7 days a week in a niche, 50 weeks a year, from age 15 to age 29 has clearly a much higher potential than a 45 year old following the normal path in life. And almost certainly a higher employable value too unless they have catastrophically bad social skills…
      - lovich 2y ago
        Did they develop those social skills during the free time they had?

briffle 2y ago

Do you offer to sponsor people to get their security clearance? many jobs I see in the sysadmin space want someone who already has clearance, and are not willing to do the process of getting someone their clearance.

ryaniscool 2y ago
Came here to say this. I have a friend who is a manager for a defense contractor. He says that competition is fierce for people that already have clearance and they can't really hire someone to sponsor them because of how long it takes. There is a 2-3 year wait for obtaining security clearance because of a backlog caused by COVID. The people that have it can write their own ticket and do very little work apparently.

calculatte 2y ago

You didn't name your employer for someone who might be interested. Perhaps visibility is one reason you can't find anyone? I applied to a similar position locally this year. I far exceed their requirements and experience and I got rejected at the application stage. And the same goes for nearly all of other places I applied to. Hiring has most definitely changed over the years. They are not just looking for "qualified applicants". There is something else going on.

1oooqooq 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
wakawaka28 2y ago
>I applied to a similar position locally this year. I far exceed their requirements and experience and I got rejected at the application stage. Could be "This one is overqualified, we can't pay that much" or "He doesn't have experience in the exact thing we need." Or just that they want a qualified applicant but they've got lots of options.
- ponow 2y ago
  But then the narrative of "there aren't enough qualified people" collapses, and H1-Bs unjustified.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Then they’d also have to pay more and not have someone they could put under their thumb.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    I thought that the original comment was about a company that could not fill with H1-Bs yet they didn't contact him either. There are many reasons that he might not be contacted. I think there are plenty of US programmers for jobs that require only US persons. At least, my experience with those jobs has been that being basically qualified is insufficient to get much interest. They're looking for other things, like very particular experience, salary range, security clearance, demographic characteristics, etc.

CoastalCoder 2y ago

> You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. Just to clarify, being a dual U.S. citizen (e.g., U.S.-Canadian, U.S.-Irish) doesn't necessarily prevent a person from obtaining a U.S. "SECRET" security clearance.

pseudocomposer 2y ago

What’s your company? What exactly do you pay? I haven’t done linear algebra in a while but certainly remember enough from graphics programming (and of course physics and linear algebra proper) in undergrad. Feel free to check out and contact me via any of the routes available on my GitHub: https://github.com/JonLatane https://github.com/JonLatane

drivingmenuts 2y ago

> You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. You don't have to get one if you don't want to as there is usually plenty of uncleared work to go around, but you have to be eligible in case that goes away and we need to put you in for a clearance. Y'all should probably make that clear. Usually, the moment I see something like that as a job requirement, I move on. Not because I may or may not qualify, but because I honestly don't remember a lot of the information required and because it's not clear that I can work in a non-weapon-building role. Probably should offer refresher courses in linear algebra - I've been a developer for 25+ years and have never knowingly used it.

dcrazy 2y ago

> You must be a US citizen to work for my company. No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. This is illegal under IRCA unless another law or government contract mandates it. [1] If every single role at your company requires a Secret clearance, then I question how separate “your part of the company” really is from the part that makes weapons. [1] https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination

snowwrestler 2y ago
Obviously this company is a government contractor.
- dcrazy 2y ago
  Not all government contracts require all employees working on the contract to have clearances or be US citizens.
  - thephyber 2y ago
    I remember visiting a family member’s work (similar industry) and the front office did a screening of me as a visitor to make sure I met those same requirements before I could enter. I’m guessing the contracts that make paper clips don’t need those stringent requirements, but the ones that make sensitive comms equipment do.
    - eigendreams 2y ago
      Large companies (think FAANG) can and do have non cleared, non citizen, non us persons (permanent residents, refugees and asylees) working on such projects with the proper separation of scopes, data access restrictions and so on.
      - amalcon 2y ago
        One of my old managers has a story about how he was tasked with documenting an unspecified something for the US government. Because he was not a US citizen (though he was a citizen of a very close US ally), he was then no longer permitted to read the document that he wrote. Probably just lawyers being lawyers, but still pretty funny.

macNchz 2y ago

Do you drug test? Sounds like a place that might. A fairly significant proportion (though definitely not all) of the best developers I've ever worked with would simply pass over places that seem like they would.

brewdad 2y ago
You aren't getting a clearance if you can't pass a drug test.
- pas 2y ago
  Having eligibility is not the same as passing unannounced random drug tests.
- zifpanachr23 2y ago
  Plenty of people can pass a drug test. That's not the issue I guarantee it. It might slightly help their hiring but it's not the root cause of difficulties, and I seriously doubt compensation is a root cause either.
- veggieroll 2y ago
  I don't do drugs; I barely even drink alcohol. But, I think drug testing is a violation of privacy and none of a company's business. This isn't 1950, nobody cares if you're doing drugs on your personal time as long as you're sober for work. Yes, you need to drug test for clearance. But I'm saying that's a job I'm not applying to unless I have no other choice. It goes straight to the bottom of the pile for me.
  - retox 2y ago
    My understand is that it comes down how likely it is that the employee could be bought/blackmailed/corrupted. A person with a drug (or gambling) habit could be blackmailed or might need more money to fuel their addiction, making them susceptible to a foreign power buying their support. Same reason for homosexuality in the past when it was illegal/scandalous.

michaelsshaw 2y ago

>You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance Nope. Not doing it. Not going to argue politics, but this is a huge RED FLAG for a lot of people. And I feel I don't need to submit to mandatory drug testing as well. >The most harmful thing the products I build do is quantify in precise detail how climate change is dooming us all Then why is it classified? How separate is your branch from the weapons branch, that you acknowledge exists?

snake42 2y ago
A security clearance doesn't necessarily mean you have to take drug tests. You do fill out paperwork about your previous drug usage though.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  If you admit to past drug use they're going to drug test you.
  - snake42 2y ago
    Not in my experience.
echoangle 2y ago
> Then why is it classified? How separate is your branch from the weapons branch, that you acknowledge exists? There's a lot of dual-use stuff that's not used for military applications but could be by another actor. Dual-use means that it could be used for civilian and military applications, not that it actually is. So if I build a revolutionary weather radar that could be used for military reconnaissance by Iran if the technology came out, but the US military isn't interested because they already have something better, it would be completely civilian but classified.
- michaelsshaw 2y ago
  >Dual-use means that it could be used for civilian and military applications, not that it actually is. This brings forward some cognitive dissonance in me. I love the open source ethics, especially the "ANYONE CAN USE THIS FOR ANY PURPOSE" tagline. But, personally, I do not want any military (especially the US military) to find any usefulness out of my projects. I'm not sure on the legal aspects of it, but if there was an SPDX-License-Identifier for GPL-3.0-NO-MILITARY (or something similar, you get the point), I'd use it on everything.

ponector 2y ago

So many contradictions! You pay well, but not so much. You search for qualified applicants but can hire a student. You require linear algebra but ok with technical writer. Looks like your managers don't know who they need to hire or don't want to really hire.

antisthenes 2y ago
> Looks like your managers don't know who they need to hire or don't want to really hire. It's prevalent in government-adjacent companies. It's all a completely opaque byzantine system to mask the nepotism and the fact that a lot of those people just siphon money from the government like it's a jobs programs. Not to mention that their application systems are usually complete garbage like Workday or Taleo.
- vasco 2y ago
  The defense industry _is_ a jobs program, I thought this was clear to everyone. It's cheaper than keeping all the vets on the payroll directly and also cheaper than letting them become another homeless crisis on top of the existing one.
Spooky23 2y ago
Defense contractors are usually located in out of the way places. If you work for the USAF Lab in Rome, NY, you make less than a Facebook intern, but the only guy richer than you in town is the state trooper with overtime. They are also stable gigs with good benefits.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  Yeah, but you also have to live in Rome, NY. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to live in a major city; but being _near_ one is pretty handy. And if the job doesn't pan out, then being in Rome, NY means your options for the next job are extremely limited. Unless your family is ok with uprooting and moving (probably _again_), the pay to move to Rome for a job would need to be catastrophically large to lure me there.

b8 2y ago

Defense contractors have loads of entry level jobs, but most require you already have a clearance (e.g. wanting US Army 17c or IC vets) or certifications which cost $500+ plus. Many don't sponsor a clearance, because it takes a long time, high chance of the application not passing and because they may just use you to get a clearance and job hop to a higher paying job. Defense contractor jobs are the only ones I've seen that haven't been outsourced overseas yet, but good luck getting a CJO for one that will sponsor a clearance and actually getting cleared. A top tier three letter agency sponsored me for TS SCI FSP and it took 9 months after the conditional job offer (CJO) after 10+ offers of personal interviews with me not counting my old jobs, college and friends/acquaintances just for them to cancel my app for "other traits, conduct or behaviour" and to reapply after a year. I heard other applicants on the free bus ride that it was their 3rd or 4th try at the polygraph or that the agency forgot about them so they had to a Congressional inquiry after 2 attempts prior etc. It's a lot of BS and I've tried for a few years now to work for the federal government and military, but they just don't want me. I've given way more effort than normal folks, so honestly screw them.

kjellsbells 2y ago
Amen, good to see it wasnt just me. My last job search was this summer and I hit this all over. I'm fine with working for a defense contractor or the feds. I'm fine with taking a pay haircut relative to FAANG to do something meaningful. I'm even fine with commuting, and the agencies poking into my life to assess a clearance. But I need to move from one job to another without a gap. Private sector employers won't touch me without a clearance, and in my part of the world there are lots of people who already have one, so I'm not worth their time. The US government would put me through a clearance, but their hiring practices are so slow and arcane that they're just not viable for someone who needs to find a job starting say in the next 30 days. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. So, I stay in the uncleared commercial sector.

0086b416f103 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants. Your company is incompetent. I've applied to hundreds of companies like yours within Huntsville, AL in the past year, rejected or ghosted all the time. Defense morons will talk about how hard their work is and how they can't find anyone to do it. Completely skip over how prevalent affirmative action is in their hiring process; who were you guys interviewing in 2020? Why is the defense small business base completely dominated by veterans who stack 10% disability ratings and minorities with a preferred SBA sticker on their website? Complete joke of an industry.

yieldcrv 2y ago
that's an assumption its just as likely that their process is auto-rejecting candidates and nobody has looked yet "After his HR department hadn't found a single candidate for a job, the manager submitted his own resume. It was auto-rejected." syndicated here https://www.yourtango.com/self/manager-proves-hr-system-auto-rejecting-candidates-using-own-resume https://www.yourtango.com/self/manager-proves-hr-system-auto... and the associated reddit comment that the articles are based off here https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1f8x5ma/comment/llhpub8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1f8x5ma/comment/l... this is likely the more common practice
- chefandy 2y ago
  Not commenting on the rest of their assumptions, but to be clear, auto-rejecting candidates that could reasonably fill roles in your company isn’t a defense against incompetence accusations— it supports them.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    I was referring to the discrimination rant even candidates that might fit a poorly implemented affirmative action program are likely getting auto-rejected nobody knows if its helpful to mention their race or disability, or whether its hurtful

xerxesaa 2y ago

I'm a U.S. citizen and I've applied to plenty of these types of jobs. Had an offer at Palantir previously but would not take that now due to ethical concerns. I'm an older worker in management. Willing to be hands on. Not looking to get paid as much as Meta (I've worked there too) but also don't want something that pays peanuts. Willing to relocate to many places. Genuinely curious where I can find such jobs.

snake42 2y ago
For clearance specific kinds of jobs, I use https://www.clearancejobs.com/ https://www.clearancejobs.com/
- yazzku 2y ago
  It would be good to have a "no military" filter. Results would probably come out empty anyway.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    I think many Aerospace jobs that aren't directly Defense/Military (think SpaceX Falcon 9 flight control development) are also behind clearance. Of course you will indirectly help launch military satellites but I wouldn't call it a military job exactly.
- the_arun 2y ago
  Don’t we first need security clearance before applying to these jobs? Or at the time of joining the company helps us to get clearance?
  - simoncion 2y ago
    Some employers will pay the cost to get a security clearance. Others will not. IME, employers will tell you in the job description which kind of employer they are. "Must have a currently active $TYPE clearance." and "Must be eligible for a $TYPE clearance; position contingent on acquiring a $TYPE clearance." are the sorts of phrases to look for.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

I once worked in defense as well and it could be that the pay is insultingly low with immense hassle and responsibility (do this thing wrong and you goto jail). I'll only consider going back if a new major conflict starts.

dec0dedab0de 2y ago

I passed on a bunch of jobs that required clearance, because getting it sounded like a nightmare. Your paragraph at the end sounds like maybe your company culture is also a problem.

tgma 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants > No, we don’t pay as much as Meta. So, essentially, you are seeking special treatment from US citizens. I’m not saying this is always unreasonable, but you’re in the territory of a centrally planned economic decision, and in the US philosophy that is supposed to be done minimally. Maybe the right thing is for your company to shut down or change their line of business, freeing up the labor for Meta.

scarface_74 2y ago
There are 4.8 million developers in the US most of them are not making Meta salaries and I would say that 80% will never see 200K inflation adjusted in thier lives. Instead of going to levels.fyi go to salary.com and choose any major city in the US that is not on the west coast. No most developers don’t get RSUs or anything else aside from their salaries and maybe a bonus. And before someone replies that I’m “bitter”. No I’m good, I’m 50. I did my stint at BigTech and I don’t have the shit tolerance level to deal with the politics of any large company.
- tgma 2y ago
  You are actually proving my point. If there are 4.8 million developers who are not commanding Meta salaries, and they "pay well" it should be fairly straightforward to get labor. It's simple: the more picky you are the more you will have to pay. The GP admitted the upper bound of Meta, which is a company that is sustainably operating in the same country. If you cannot compete in a labor market, either raise your product pricing or be more efficient. If not, you will make less profit and/or go out of business, which is an appropriate outcome most of the time. No one is entitled to their business model.
  - pixl97 2y ago
    I think the other part of the problem is no one in software wants to work in Huntsville. There are numerous reasons why AL sucks.
    - 2y ago

hankchinaski 2y ago

In other words you are looking for people who are willing to get paid less what they are worth

DanAtC 2y ago

Security clearances are a giant hassle. Why go through all that for less than FAANG pay?

yazzku 2y ago
[flagged]
- tiznow 2y ago
  sorry, what's GP here?
  - loeg 2y ago
    Grandparent comment.

monksy 2y ago

So do you discriminate against people that consume substances, on their own unpaid time, legal in the location they live at? > You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. You don't have to get one if you don't want to as there is usually plenty of uncleared work to go around, but you have to be eligible in case that goes away and we need to put you in for a clearance.

shiroiushi 2y ago

Where is your workplace located? Perhaps it's in a crappy place that no one wants to live in, and you should look at relocating.

soyoudontsay 2y ago

[flagged]

colechristensen 2y ago

I've looked at jobs at places like this (some requiring quite high clearance) and the pay is hilariously bad, and I don't make anywhere near peak FAANG rates (or work in FAANG) 50% pay cut for a DevOps/SRE role requiring a Q clearance (DoE version of Top Secret I think) You can't find employees because the job isn't exciting (you're probably not NASA) and the pay is bad. Maybe your recruiters are bad too.

shiroiushi 2y ago
They're probably located way out in the sticks too. Who wants to pack up all their stuff and sell their house and move to the rural deep South for a job that may or may not work out long-term? And if it doesn't work out, they now have to sell the house they bought there (because there's nothing decent in that area on the rental market) and move cross-country yet again?

brandonmenc 2y ago

> Yes, we pay well. Not enough, apparently. > No, you can't work remotely. You'll have to pay even more for this. > No, we don't pay as much as Meta. So again, not enough.

biztos 2y ago

Not to pile on, but if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job and not some manager’s mistaken idea of a proxy for more general talent, then you’re hiring specialists and the pool will not be that large. People who remember all their math and enjoy it and can also code, are also very employable at all the AI companies and departments, including at Meta. And how do you know if someone’s eligible for security clearance without applying for it? (Other than the obvious “be a US citizen, don’t be a spy” part.)

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Isn’t linear algebra heavily used in machine learning and computer graphics (not just know it, but be able to wield it proficiently)? So ya, the talent probably exists, but they hit the “these engineers are making half a million a year to do something else” problem.
- biztos 2y ago
  Yes, exactly, I would (naïvely) assume it's common among e.g. ML specialists, who are in high demand and thus hard to recruit. I'm sure there are a lot, but if I had to extrapolate from experience ("OK, who's good at math, hands up?") I would say it's less than 20% of coder genpop.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bravura 2y ago
  There is a lot of published research work in ML that had huge impact without explicitly touching linear algebra. Given that is the case, to answer your question: yes, linear algebra is the foundation of ML. No, a lot of impactful day-to-day ML engineering can be done without touching linear algebra. This is how assembly is the basis of compilation and programming. But you probably are going to get a whole lot of work done without ever using it. It's generally a nice flex when applicants can code assembly, and usually a yellow-flag when the company suggests they require knowledge of assembly. To me, my eyebrows raise when an industry person mentions linear algebra. I'm just saying the odds are really low that you actually use it.

jtcurlin 2y ago

I’ve applied to a variety of your positions each cycle for the past 3 years. New grad, clearance-eligible US citizen from a mid-range state school with a historically strong defense/gov. connection. I have multiple internships, a math minor, and my standout project is a rendering engine with a physics/collision system. I’ve never had or expected a remote option, and 70k (outside of the extreme-COL areas) sounds fantastic. Your company has never offered me a phone screening. Seeing claims that Northrop is in sort of qualified candidate crisis when myself and many applicants I know of similar profiles are lucky to get so much as a rejection email is borderline infuriating.

phkahler 2y ago

What city or state?

sigbottle 2y ago

:/ Never got into embedded programming or engineering, maybe I should though. Invested too many of my math skills in theoretical computer science Never too late to learn etc. etc.

atlgator 2y ago

The pool of Americans that can qualify for a clearance is very small. You'd be surprised how many people have poor credit, bad debt, foreclosures, foreign connections, drug use and/or arrest history. It's not a fair comparison to the applicant pool available to your typical industry business. When I got my TS out of college, the OPM agent went to my old frat house and interviewed people at random, then went to my girlfriend's sorority house and interviewed random people there. It can be brutal.

foobiekr 2y ago
past drug use does not preclude a clearance (edited)
- atlgator 2y ago
  It absolutely can. Depends on the drug and when it was last used, if you had any drug-related incidents or court ordered rehabilitation.
  - foobiekr 2y ago
    That’s going beyond simple use. The two year lookback is real but nobody is going to fail a basic clearance over college pot use.
    - atlgator 2y ago
      I didn’t say anything about pot. I said drug. That’s any illicit drug or controlled substance including prescription misuse. The look back for declaration is 7 years, not 2, and generally you are auto denied if use was within the last 12 months, college or not.
      - stonemetal12 2y ago
        >I didn’t say anything about pot. I said drug. That’s any illicit drug or controlled substance including prescription misuse. Pot is still illegal at the federal level where a clearance would be taking place.

mint2 2y ago

What’s your companies general location? Do you have an office where tech talent wants to work? Location is an important part of a competitive employment offer. And I highly doubt linear algebra is a day to day requirement for a typical worker. Sounds like a case of expecting chauffeurs to know how to build a drive train from scratch.

klipklop 2y ago

> Yes, we pay well. Let's hear some numbers for junior, mid and senior. I bet they are not great.

sensanaty 2y ago

I'm not USAian, but everything you described to me makes the job sound miserable, especially compared to the competition. The clearance I won't comment on, as I have no clue what it involves. Presumably though, this means randomized drug tests which is IMO a complete violation of privacy. Also, I'm probably wrong but it gives me the impression that despite your reassurance that you aren't building weapons systems, ya kinda are. And as you said, a part of your company makes weapons. That will automatically cause many people to be disinterested, for better or worse. > Ghost positions In my experience, gov't jobs are the worst when it comes to fake job postings that only exist as a cover for internal promos. Might be different in the states, but I doubt it. > Yes, we are willing to train someone who is motivated. We won't re-teach linear algebra... Wait, so will you train them or not? You won't refresh someone on linear algebra which most people haven't touched since their uni days, but you'll put a technical writer through university to become an engineer? Which one is it? Then later on you say the algebra thing is a hard requirement. How do these statements make sense together? > Can't work remotely This is an automatic disqualifier for many people, for many reasons. I get that you're working with space hardware in clean rooms, but if this means people have to move to the middle of nowhere (or just move, period) and commute for 2 hours each way, then you're disqualifying tons of people, when their alternative is a job where they can work remotely with all the benefits that entails. I'd personally rather be dead than be forced to commute ever again. > We pay well Define well? Especially with everything else I commented on, is it really "well", if they can join a much less frustrating job and get paid more? Also you sound quite snarky about working at Meta. I'm no fan of FAANG, but if we're talking compensation, I think the snark is unwarranted given the situation. > We expect programmers to remember linear algebra and have more than the ability to shovel frameworks on top of each other... Again, snarkiness and derision. A bit of a dumb position to take when you're admitting that the easier job not only pays (dramatically) more, but has better conditions (remote work, no clearance-related BS) as well. No wonder you can't find qualified individuals, your comment alone makes it sound like a miserable job where you're working for bean counters that want to inspect the cloudiness of your piss while forcing you to waste half your life driving to the office and back without extra compensation, while they get to see other, less skilled engineers "glue frameworks together" for double the pay and quadruple the happiness. And I find it rich to comment on advertisers when your company makes weapons that literally kill people. Something about reaper missiles and glass houses comes to mind here.

beambot 2y ago

> Yes, we pay well. Prove it. What city are you in, and what is total comp for software engineer & hardware engineer with 20 years of experience? I worked in national defense. It was a pain in the ass: shit pay, worst politics, massive tolerance for incompetence & mediocrity, meeting hell, and secrecy (necessary, but "need to know" gatekeeping wasnt at times).

SauciestGNU 2y ago
Why would I work in person for less money when I can work remote? For in person work on critical applications like satellites, I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top. Consider that most midsize tech companies are going to pay staff level 200k or above and ask how the company in question compares, before pricing in the crushing inflexibility of in person work.
- nativeit 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - briandear 2y ago
    Defense contractors don’t give the government a discount for “fulfilling and meaningful” projects. It’s “f-you, pay me.” Why should employees of that industry give the employer a discount?
  - 5ADBEEF 2y ago
    the average defense job is the exact opposite of fulfilling and meaningful
    - rcpt 2y ago
      Not if you like showing roughly the same set of slides 5x per week in meetings with roughly the same set of people in each one
  - SauciestGNU 2y ago

kennyloginz 2y ago

Hi, How can I get in touch with your hiring department?

profsummergig 2y ago

Curious re: "linear algebra". What kind of understanding is needed? A basic understanding? It's a vast and unending subject. And there are well known software apps that do linear algebra these days. Do you folks use a particular software to do it? Engineering Technician: what does an hour in the life of such work look like? Thanks.

touisteur 2y ago
Later on GP talks about radar, so I'd guess probably at least the basics, convolution, matrix multiplication, and some inverse methods (evd, svd, cholesky...). Not just implementing but understanding what it does, a bit ?

fn-mote 2y ago

Wow, I was all ready to look you up in your profile ... until I read all of the follow-up responses. I knew it was too good to be true.

teeray 2y ago

> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant Why not? Isn’t this just part of your ramp-up if it’s a niche qualification? We re-teach networking to developers who probably forgot it—that’s a semester course, easily. If you’re not willing to invest in candidates that are 90% of the way there, then you’re perpetually going to have difficulty hiring.

crystal_revenge 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants. It's not just that you're restricted to US Citizens. You point out all the issues in your post: > You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance So, even though I'm adult and it's legal in my state, I can't smoke weed now and then? Oh and depending on the project may be subject to a polygraph... sounds fun! > No, we don't make weapons for the military. Every.. government... defense... contractor has this speech. Why even pretend that you're not in the war business, which ultimately means killing people? Honestly I would be more comfortable working for an org that wasn't afraid to admit what they do. Making moral compromises is not uncommon in tech, and I don't judge people that choose to do so, but I do judge those that pretend that they're not. > No, you can't work remotely. I've worked remotely virtually my entire career, including for the Federal government. You may have a good reason for this requirement, but it absolutely shrinks your pool. You don't even mention location, but I'm guessing it's not in a top city like NYC or SF. > Yes, we pay well. And yet you never give a range. Last time I worked for a DARPA contractor, Google (this was the earlier days) basically hired every elite member of the R&D team in a weekend (exaggerating here, but not much) since both the pay and work was drastically better. > One issue is that we expect programmers to remember linear algebra Ah great, unjustified ego to boot! I'm sold! I'm a US Citizen, work in a remote small company doing opensource work largely for the good of the world, likely paid roughly the same, it's nobody's business if I want to smoke weed, and most of the team has a quantitative PhDs (but would blush to mention it) and those that don't could easily teach a course on linear algebra. I'm just one engineer, but I can't imagine applying at company like you describe. You might have better success hiring qualified applicants if you at least admitted how unattractive such a place is to the many engineers I've work ed with who use linear algebra everyday and tried to find some compromise.

inamberclad 2y ago

Ball?

csomar 2y ago

> Yes, we pay well. > No, we don't pay as much as Meta. Are you saying you pay well as comparing to the local McDonalds? That being said, my guess you can't find "qualified applicants" is because you are putting too many restrictions and paying too little. So you end up with students who will take anything and then you come here to complain about the lack of talent.

allarm 2y ago
> No, we don't pay as much as Meta. >> Are you saying you pay well as comparing to the local McDonalds? That's just disgusting.

ramrunner0xff 2y ago

similarly i am in this ridiculous position. I am a security engineer, wanting to work in vulnerability research. Got an EB2-NIW green card due to my skills being valuable for the national interest. Can't even get an interview because all vulnerability researcher positions require TS clearance... I guess i will just have to wait 4 more years for the citizenship, but it's a pity.

choppaface 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants. By chance has your employer posted on HN who’s hiring?

loeg 2y ago

A lot of people don't want to have to get a security clearance for a mediocre pay job.

remarkEon 2y ago

>No, we don't pay as much as Meta. Ah, well. Nevertheless...

randmeerkat 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants. What’s the name of your employer?

eigendreams 2y ago

By definition a US Person would not have a visa, since that qualifier only applies to US nationals, permanent residents (which do not need nor have a visa, permanent residents do not apply for admission after status is granted), refugees or asylees.

RHSeeger 2y ago

> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant but we will pay a tech writer to go to school nights/weekends to get a degree in engineering (me, I did that). Why? Linear Algebra is certainly something that can be learned faster than a degree in engineering. I expect the average software developer (someone that can understand algorithms) can achieve competency in less than a semester's worth of time. If someone is a good developer, learning specific skills sets for the domain is pretty normal.

mcmcmc 2y ago

The hard truth is that too many people can’t pass the drug test required for security clearance, and that does narrow your applicant pool.

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llm_trw 2y ago

>You have to be eligible for a Secret security clearance. Having had to go through one of those: yeah no shit. Not everyone enjoys a colonoscopy without anesthesia. >You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. I do, a keg at any rate, but given that I can't get a security clearance because of the people I hung out to build one - yeah.

achenet 2y ago

I'm a programmer, I know linear algebra (I actually have a master's degree in maths). I grew up in Houston, lived there from 1998 to 2010, but never got a citizenship owing to some of my father's medical issues disqualifying us from a green card. If you're willing to sponsor me for a green card and wait five years, and you're located in a city I'd actually like to live, I might come work for you :)

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mr_toad 2y ago

> programmers to remember linear algebra Programmers who know linear algebra probably also know basic calculus & stats, so now you’re competing with companies hiring ML engineers.

briandear 2y ago

If you doubled the pay you’d probably have more applicants than you could ever hope for. And why don’t you pay as much as Meta? The defense industrial complex can pay retired generals massive salaries to sit on boards, they can hire the most expensive lobbyists on the Hill. The defense department specifically can’t even pass an audit. They have so much money going out that they can’t even count it. And let’s take Raytheon for example, have you seen the operating margins? They’re huge. So even with these “critical shortages,” somehow they are immensely profitable. If shortages are affecting those margins, then there should be plenty of money to pay “critical” people more. Revenue per employee at Raytheon for example is almost $420,000. For typical manufacturing companies, a “good” number is $300,000. So a “critical” employee is worth a lot more than they’re being paid and there are probably a lot of employees that are dead weight and keeping them around means less money to pay the shortage areas. I once applied to work a government project for a subcontractor and they were adding “headcount” simply because the terms of the subcontract required a specific number of people regardless of the amount of work required. They were essentially hiring people to do almost nothing. I spent over 3 months waiting for a response. Apparently their critical shortage wasn’t that critical because the hiring process was so long and convoluted and subject to “contract renewals,” that I simply gave up and went to work for someone else. I could go on for days about the extreme waste and oftentimes outright fraud that happens in government contracting, subcontracting, and sub-sub contracting. And despite formerly having a TS/SCI clearance, any job in the “McLean Area,” pays less than most startups. And jobs in places like Huntsville pay even less. Even overseas work in “austere” environments pays less than a junior developer at Stripe. And you don’t get potentially shot at at Stripe — And I don’t have to work 100 levels deep for contractors or contractors of contractors on site using often circa 1996 development practices and lowest-bidder equipment managed by IT departments that seem to be led by dinosaurs and it can take weeks or months to simply requisition a dev server even within an unclassified cloud environment. Why to do that for salaries/benefits that are lower than I could get as a janitor at Netflix? Make the workplace/work environment and benefits compelling and you’ll get more applicants. Small startups literally have better benefits. You also don’t have to endure a Tier 5 investigation — the outcome of which entitles you to a job that pays so little comparatively.

hilux 2y ago

> No "US Persons" (visa holders) or foreigners allowed. FYI, a "US person" means a US citizen or a Permanent Resident.

ponow 2y ago

Define competence. What fraction of graduates in EE and CS from top 50 schools would you regard as competent?

newsclues 2y ago

Have you tried recruiting people in school in mathematics programs? You’ve repeatedly mentioned being unwilling to train linear algebra skills, but will train other things, so go recruit math nerds.

grumple 2y ago

What you’re saying just doesn’t jive with the experience devs have when applying for jobs. You hear horror stories about juniors applying for hundreds of jobs. They are absolutely qualified for entry level work - they have CS degrees. I have experienced applying for dozens, including those posted to HN: most won’t respond at all. Maybe months later you’ll get an auto-reject message. Or you’ll go through several interviews not to be selected, even while passing technical assessments. My colleagues and friends have similar experiences.

miningape 2y ago

> ISO certified clean room in their house Well it's not ISO certified, and its more of a box than a room. But yes I do actually have access to a sterile (not sanitised) environment at home. I can't work for you on account of my SA citizenship though. It looks like my only option to get that kind of clearance is to start my own company.

greentxt 2y ago

Look, by "won't reteach" you give it away. Those who are not rusty in linear algebra will tend to be recent grads, younger people who are probably not looking for a boring defense job with no remote somewhere in Alabama. Those jobs appeal to people who may have had enough time to forget how to implement a SVD without googling.

Jcampuzano2 2y ago
Alternatively the developers who do remember and use linear algebra many years into their career or even more advanced math/numerical methods and are also interested in using it are in higher demand than ever before due to the explosion of ML/AI, and thus can command a much higher salary. The simple answer is always they simply don't pay enough to attract the people with this skillset. If they paid as much as Meta (who they used as an example) they would certainly have way less issues with hiring.
- greentxt 2y ago
  On the latter point I agree completely, on the former--demand for mid-late career quant types, I want to agree but also think we'll need to wait and see because current AI will lower a lot of bars, and as you acknowledge it's all about money ultimately.

rgbrenner 2y ago

We cannot find qualified applicants. ... [a bunch of requirements] ... No, we don't pay as much as Meta. ... [some more requirements] The shortage on $5000 ferarris continues as well.

DiggyJohnson 2y ago
I work in the space. You are massively understating the difficulty of finding candidates willing to get a security clearance, and the cost to the company of sponsoring those clearances. It's not as simple as the compensation number alone.
- rgbrenner 2y ago
  sounds like you have a requirement that filters out a lot of people. typically when things get rarer they get more expensive.
- sneed_chucker 2y ago
  Yeah, no surprise. Getting a clearance sucks. It takes forever and you're subjected to very intrusive scrutiny as well as potentially psychological tomfoolery like polygraphs. Why would a qualified individual subject themselves to that unless they have no other option. There's a reason clearance jobs have a reputation as make-work for ex service members.
- GenerWork 2y ago
  >You are massively understating the difficulty of finding candidates willing to get a security clearance, and the cost to the company of sponsoring those clearances. I find this hard to believe. I'd totally get a security clearance, but no company seemingly offers it, they only want people who have a pre-existing clearance.
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    Well that’s the second half of the issue with clearances, they cost the company a fortune to sponsor.

antonvs 2y ago

Since more skilled immigration can't solve the requirement, what is it you think would help? > You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them This sounds like an excuse. You think it's completely impossible to write code for some embedded device, robot, whatever remotely? Hire some cheaper remote hands, set up some telework equipment, voila now you can hire from all over the country. I did development for a scanning optical microscope, was only once even in the same room with one, and even then never got to touch it. Of course once that issue is eliminated, the security theater one will be raised next. People might be working from their bed next to a Russian honeypot or whatever. National security types tend to have vivid imaginations in that respect, and have to justify all their rules to themselves. The end result? "We can't find qualified applicants." Btw I'm technically qualified, and in no way a security risk to the US, but you wouldn't be allowed to hire me. Perhaps the feds should figure out a way of doing security screening for foreign nationals. "Must be a citizen" seems like lazy bureaucratic BS. As if citizens can't be security risks?!

jfwuasdfs 2y ago

> Yes, we have extensive high school and college work-study/internships and participants make $72k/yr This is below COL in many areas. If you increase this to 125k like Bucees then you should be able to draw in more candidates.

Jcampuzano2 2y ago

Without concrete numbers, all of this is worthless. How much do you pay for the roles you have a shortage, and where are you located so it can be compared with the market rate. If your pay is anywhere below minimum 75th but more realistically 90th percent market rate in your area your answer is obvious and you are just BSing or your employer is gaslighting you to keep pay down. All the criteria (required security clearance, no opportunities for remote work, knowledge of skills not used very much outside of schooling without allowances for relearning on the job, only US citizens, etc) you listed automatically creates a hurdle to entry that isn't made up for without significantly higher pay than market rate.

DiggyJohnson 2y ago

Sounds like we work in similar worlds. I completely agree with your experience. I think its a balanced mixture of compensation and qualified applicants.

sir0010010 2y ago

Hello! Say a developer applied with ~10 years experience without a technical or quantitative degree but have self studied and feel they have a solid understanding of linear algebra using textbooks and online resources such as the Strang course from Opencourseware - would you still interview someone in this situation?

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0xffff2 2y ago

> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. This is just plain wrong. I'm wrapping up on a project where I wrote significant chunks of the flight software for a moon rover while being 99% remote. If you're requiring software engineers to be onsite regularly for non-cleared work, your process sucks, no exceptions. ETA: By the way, I personally only went fully remote due to covid (although I moved away from the office and have no plans to return), but some of my coworkers have been remote for well over a decade, and this is a government agency. I've seen way better setups in private industry.

rurp 2y ago

As a counterpoint I've been involved with several companies in recent years that did not have a particularly difficult time hiring similar candidates. The only clear difference was that these jobs were remote friendly. It's impossible to say for sure from the outside but a few factors that might be making it difficult for you to hire: - A lot of tech workers value remote work these days. - You aren't based in a location with a large enough talent pool for the work you do. - Your company doesn't pay as well as you think, or has other details that turn off some potential applicants. - It could be variance. There's a lot of randomness in the job market.

chipsrafferty 2y ago

You can't find qualified applicants to work on poor quality technology.

AlchemistCamp 2y ago

> We won't re-teach linear algebra to a developer applicant but we will pay a tech writer to go to school nights/weekends to get a degree in engineering (me, I did that). Do you consider developer applicants who learned linear algebra on their own or through a product like Math Academy? Google, MS and other large tech companies do.

michaelcampbell 2y ago

> No, you can't work remotely. You (even programmers!) have to touch the things we build in order to build them and nobody has an ISO certified clean room in their house. I get that this is a legitimate requirement here, but in many companies it just isn't. And this is a huge limiting factor. The way housing is nowdays, no way I'm moving for a job without a relo package. This isn't necessarily "we can't find qualified applicants", but rather "...that we will pay enough to make this switch"

know-how 2y ago

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MrSkelter 2y ago

This is a flaw in the system. Candidates from 5-eyes partners should be able to get any clearance necessary. I know from experience that Lockheed has a lot of non US nationals working on secret projects which require clearance. During the F-35 program a ton of Brits were involved, both for the avionics components made in the UK, and as test pilots for VTOl (where Brits were preferred given Harrier experience and their acknowledged skill as the best pilots of that type). I don’t know why Brits, Canadians, kiwis and Aussies can’t get cleared for you guys. They are getting cleared at every level all the time. NSA, CIA, etc.

Slava_Propanei 2y ago

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