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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

407 points by RobinHirst11 2y ago

gorjusborg 2y ago
Answer: they need to be open to hearing it first, and you need to be someone they trust. How to build trust? Make it clear you are on their 'side'. Luckily giving feedback can be that way: - Give any positive feedback publicly - Give any negative feedback privately - Rather than give negative feedback, come with concrete things that could be done to improve things. Try not to assign blame. Do this consistently while being good at your job and they are more likely to not misinterpret your opinions as rationalization
Tracybrownn88 2y ago
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DavidBecklin45 2y ago
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lisper 2y ago
Another tactic I like to use is a riff on the authors suggestion #3: “Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” This works because it’s framed as accepting the decision and being genuinely curious about the rationale. Often the answer is: no, I never really gave it any thought. Other times there turns out to be a good reason that didn’t occur to me and it turns into a learning experience for me. Another tactic that works for me is “Can I offer a suggestion?” The answer is almost always yes but it’s a sign of respect to ask.
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  This is excellent advice. In general, offering feedback in the form of a question is an extremely underutilized way of beginning a productive dialog. Unfortunately, likely due to surveys, most people are accustomed only offering declarations in lieu of interrogatives.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  Depends on the profile, when somebody talks to me like that I immediately cringe in my head and lose all respect for the person. Probably a matter of culture too.
  - lpapez 2y ago
    Same here - whenever I see someone trying to get around giving honest feedback, and trying to frame it as "humble curiosity" instead, I immediately assume they read some "leadership" articles and are trying to apply it because they are second guessing themselves. I believe it depends a lot on the culture, but I am much more used to either keeping my mouth shut (when there is nothing on the line) or being blunt (when it matters). Either way, no sugarcoating or "being curious".
    - lisper 2y ago
      The problem with being more assertive is that there is always the possibility that you are wrong and the person you are "correcting" is right. Opening with an assertion makes it hard to save face in that case.
  - thethirdone 2y ago
    This seems like a very shallow way of thinking. "Losing all respect for the person" implies that you think this is NEVER an appropriate way to address someone. Phrasing a disagreement of opinion as a question of reasoning is often the best course of action. In particular if a choice has been made and going back to reverse it has significant costs, it is important to not say anything like "We should not be doing this" or "You made a mistake." Unless there is a good of action to reverse course that is simply being rude for no reason. Even in the case where there is a good way to reverse a decision, I would rather ask for the reasoning that led to the decision than strongly state the decision is wrong. If I am working with someone I respect at all, I must entertain the thought that I am wrong and they made the right decision with good reasoning. What would you say to a superior who made a decision that you disagree with, but don't think is worth reversing? My best guess is either nothing or something that more strongly asserts your belief, but I can't think of any better option than phrasing it as a question.
- kaffekaka 2y ago
  In my experience, those phrases are more often used to disguise the real intent: "you are doing it wrong and I can't stand it". I think the best feedback comes from people who have tried to understand the reasons other people have, before asking "is there a reason ...?".
- lupire 2y ago
  Your manager often admits they do bad things for no reason?
  - lisper 2y ago
    It's more like, "No, I didn't have any particular reason for doing it this way, if you have a better idea, go for it."
- switch007 2y ago
  > "Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” I think many people would take that as a direct challenge of their decision. I'm no human expert but personally I'd try something like "Man I bet you had to make some tradeoffs and juggle priorities over $X right ! ..." and then see what they offer up. At the water-cooler, bar etc > "Can I offer a suggestion?” It's not the done thing to say no to that but depending on the tone a lot of people would then just ignore whatever comes out your mouth
danjl 2y ago
Actually this is good advice for giving feedback to anyone.
flog 2y ago
This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.
- bradlys 2y ago
  It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actually be able to speak up about something without getting fired.
  - fcarraldo 2y ago
    In my experience, Americans are much more likely to see criticism as a threat or an insult than in most European business cultures, where blunt feedback is common. I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. It’s absurd, and it destroys teams.
    - csa 2y ago
      > I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. I’ve been put into the “practitioner of the dark arts” bucket twice when I predicted with detail and accuracy why certain large projects would fail. The folks in charge were offended when I presented my analysis, and they were just afraid of me after my predictions came true.
      - steveBK123 2y ago
lijok 2y ago
Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume. The reason you fluff up feedback to your subordinates is because lower down the chain they tend to be insecure and don't yet have the experience to distinguish between actionable impartial feedback, and threats to their job security. The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations.
- freejazz 2y ago
  > they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. Be sure to tell them that too!
- johnfn 2y ago
  The notion that there are only two options: that your superiors should be perfect receptors of all information, no matter how poorly phrased, or that you should begin "polishing your resume", is immature. The world is more complex than this.
- codr7 2y ago
  Thank God I didn't have to write all of that myself :) Well said!
- fny 2y ago
  I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The implication is that you’re in a situation where management is stubborn or even hostile to feedback. Most organizations don’t practice “highly effective communication”. It’s often a nightmare riddled with politics and ego.
  - Rygian 2y ago
    > I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The "start polishing your resume" bit was quite explicit.
rrr_oh_man 2y ago
Do not give feedback to your boss. https://www.manager-tools.com/2012/02/do-not-give-feedback-your-boss-hall-fame-guidance https://www.manager-tools.com/2012/02/do-not-give-feedback-y...
- antiframe 2y ago
  Would you be so kind provide a summary of your link? The show notes cost $15!
  - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    NotebookLM is very decent at giving summaries to lengthy audio files: The sources strongly advise against giving feedback to your boss, even if your boss claims to be open to it. This is due to the inherent power dynamics in organizations and the potential negative consequences. Here's why: - Power Differentials: Organizations have vertical structures where bosses have more power, authority, and responsibility [1-3]. This means that certain behaviors, like giving feedback, are reserved for those in higher positions [3]. - Risk of Negative Reaction: Even if a boss claims to be open to feedback, they might react negatively, consciously or subconsciously, to criticism from their subordinates [4-6]. This can lead to: - Damaged Relationships: The boss may view the feedback as insubordination or a lack of respect, straining the relationship [7]. Stalled Career Progress: The boss may hold a grudge, potentially impacting future promotions or opportunities [7]. - Job Security: In extreme cases, giving unsolicited feedback could even lead to termination [8]. - Misinterpretation and Misunderstanding: Bosses often interpret upward feedback as a challenge to their authority or a lack of understanding of the complexities of their role [9, 10]. They might feel that the direct is overstepping their boundaries or does not have enough experience to offer valid criticisms [11]. - Breakdown of Hierarchy: Allowing upward feedback can blur the lines of authority and lead to a situation where directs feel empowered to dictate their boss's actions [9]. This can create chaos and undermine the effectiveness of the team. - False Sense of Openness: Many bosses want to believe they are open to feedback, but in reality, very few are truly capable of handling it maturely and constructively [12, 13]. Their initial openness might just be a facade that crumbles when faced with actual criticism [14]. The sources highlight that while it's tempting to give upward feedback, especially with good intentions, it's generally unproductive and carries significant risks. They advocate for focusing on alternative approaches like offering suggestions during brainstorming sessions or providing input through formalized channels like 360 reviews, while exercising extreme caution even in those situations.
codr7 2y ago
I don't think tip toeing around people like this is a solution at all. But I've never worked in the US. Some important questions: 1) Why are they a leader at all? 2) Why are they your chosen leader?
- parpfish 2y ago
  Just like there are plenty of employed, bad devs there are employed, bad leaders/managers. Maybe they aren’t good at it, or maybe they’re new to managing and this is one skill where they will get better.
  - codr7 2y ago
    I'm thinking maybe we should be more careful in general with who we give these kinds of responsibilities to.
    - parpfish 2y ago
      People can grow into their roles. You don’t expect junior devs to know everything one day one, so why would you expect a “junior[1]” manager? [1] I know the article is about senior managers, but it reads as though the mean “somebody more senior than me” and not “somebody who has been managing a long time”
      - codr7 2y ago
        The difference is the damage done. I don't think training managers on real people is a good idea.
        loup-vaillant 2y ago
        Genuine question: how do we train managers, then? Surgeons have pigs, but even then it's not perfect, and there comes a point where they have to perform surgeries on actual humans (hopefully under supervision).
notnmeyer 2y ago
pretty interesting. i think i fall on the blunt end of the communication spectrum, so this gave me some things to think about.
cess11 2y ago
It's not a senior leader if they aren't spending a lot of time prying out this kind of information from their team already. Looking at their web page this author seems like a professional bullshitter that pivoted into enabling other bullshitters, for a fee.
kybernetikos 2y ago
Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give good feedback to anyone you need to understand something about the pressures and challenges that they are facing. And remember that everything is a trade off. For example, perhaps they're incredibly busy, and would like to spend more time with new hires, but are struggling to find time because they aren't getting enough blocks of concentration time to work out clear priorities and they have been told they need to give their trusted colleague more opportunities to grow so they delegated it to someone. Most likely, if you think something is a problem then they do too. They don't need to be told that or criticised for it, they need help solving the problem that causes the problem. Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." As I started doing more leadership, I became aware that a lot of the things I might previously have cited as predictable examples of leadership incompetence causing problems were not surprises to leadership. They knew that this course of action would cause problems. The reason that they went ahead anyway was because they believed that the problems caused by the other courses of action available to them would be worse. Of course, there are situations this advice does not apply, maybe the leader genuinely is clueless or evil or mistaken about the severity of a problem, but a good leader when presented with a problem elsewhere needs to start from a position of respect and learning and if you want to give advice to a leader you should start by trying to model good leadership yourself.
- cdavid 2y ago
  > Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." This is the proper answer. Ultimately, feedback should be about changing something. My experience is that most people are neither good at giving or receiving feedback, and that includes myself. There are more effective ways to change things. OP's is useful when you have to give feedback, which is expected in most large companies in some form or other (evals, etc.).
somishere 2y ago
Leaders don't hold all the power. As others have said, I think this is a good approach for everyone - showing a bit of empathy and "you don't know what you don't know" when corresponding with people. In fact it's good leadership 101. Edit: can anyone suggest any good (free) tools for eliciting 360 feedback? Potentially anonymously?
terminalbraid 2y ago
I disagree with much of the premise and frankly don't think this person should be giving advice. Some of what's in there isn't bad like "be thoughtful about what you say". However, if you already feel something needs to be changed to the point where you're thinking something needs to be said but then you follow the article to force yourself to ask questions like > “Can I live with this? How much does this bother me? Is it worth giving them feedback and what are my chances of success doing it?” and doing multiple rounds of this you are compromising with yourself at an early stage. This frequently leads to things escalating (the problem didn't go away and in fact got incrementally worse because there was no negative feedback) which makes it a much harder situation. This article is also written with examples like, if you don't make small changes to your wording, you'll get responses like "You think I don’t know that I need to give new hires guidance? I obviously gave them guidance. GTFO." which clearly catastrophizes outcomes based on small nuances in your own already inoffensive language. Feedback is like gardening. Take care of small problems early and gently but relentlessly. If there's a wolf in your garden you should probably do something about the wolf instead of working around the wolf and spending your life in fear, even if that means finding a different garden. I will recommend the book "The Coward's Guide to Conflict" which helped me get a healthy perspective. https://www.amazon.com/Cowards-Guide-Conflict-Empowering-Solutions/dp/1402200552 https://www.amazon.com/Cowards-Guide-Conflict-Empowering-Sol...
bambax 2y ago
In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up. Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is nothing scandalous in having another person evaluate those decisions against a set of principles or common sense, and speaking up when something doesn't feel right. Better that than crashing into a mountain.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  That story in Gladwell about the (IIRC) Korean Air having to switch cockpit languages to English in order to escape the intrinsic layers of deference built into the language was hardcore. They were going to get delisted in Canada if they didn't do it. Yeah, better than crashing into a mountain. That cockpit voice recording was really chilling. Gladwell gets a lot of flack, but he's told some interesting stories. And your further point about businesses needing it too should be expanded to organizations of all kinds. This is a human problem, which means it's an ego problem, on both sides.
  - ptx 2y ago
    > Gladwell gets a lot of flack, but he's told some interesting stories. Isn't the flack he's getting due to exactly that, that his stories would be interesting if true but often aren't?
    - MrMcCall 2y ago
      I haven't followed stories about him, but I doubt that all or even most of his stories were made up. I mean, the Korean Air (IIRC) one can't have been fudged, right?
  - specialist 2y ago
    He recently did a mea culpa about the tipping point stuff. Glad he did. I really, really disliked Gladwell. And yet Pushkin (his podcast network) carries some of the best stuff ever (Jill Lepore). And I found I was agreeing with a lot of Gladwell's (and Michael Lewis') overall "punching up" worldview. So I was having trouble reconciliing my two views of him. As we've seen with Lewis' recent hagiography for that crypto freak: people are just people, they make mistakes, everyone's got blind spots, we don't have to agree on everything to learn from each other.
flymaipie 2y ago
Why on earth would someone deserve to be fired based on mere "feedback"? As long as it's not an outright offensive rant, it should be handled sensibly. But even if it is an offensive rant, firing should be a last resort. The amount of toxic subordination that's assumed to be normal is sickening.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  It's exaggeration. You might not get fired but it will absolutely affect your raises & bonuses.
teaearlgraycold 2y ago
If you’re not on a visa and don’t have kids I’d recommend simply not caring if you get fired by insecure leadership. You’re better off elsewhere if they would do that.
brunooliv 2y ago
I found strange to see so much criticism of the post as usually, anything that Wes Kao writes really resonates with me as a senior IC. Usually there’s a great balance of nuance and depth to the advice that makes it easy to digest and pick small bits and pieces to try out on my own context
- 01100011 2y ago
  Nearly 30 years in the business here and I think most of what was said in the article is spot on if you are in an appropriate situation. Many commenters seem to take absolutist positions on this and think no one should ever allow themselves to be under a bad manager but it happens and then you need to effectively deal with it and these are some good techniques to do so. The techniques even apply to working with a good manager. You shouldn't just vomit every criticism or critique to your superior. You should engage in introspection and internal dialogue to see if your perspective is correct and if there is more you can do to address the issue before spamming your manager. If someone is offended by the article they might need to take a step back and ask if their ego has grown beyond its useful size.
  - lucgray 2y ago
    Yeah I mean to generalize even further, these are techniques that can apply to your direct reports, your friends, your spouse. Giving feedback is definitely an art and a thin line between getting your point across in a clear way vs running up against ego or impatience. If you care about your org's success it's critical to know your audience, their approach and value system, and how to tailor your message to account for what will resonate with them. It's really tough stuff.
- apeescape 2y ago
  I absolutely hate having to say stuff in between the lines or trying to interpret veiled intentions. There's def no need to be pointlessly rude when giving criticism, but to me, beating around the bush is exhausting and often frustratingly ineffective.
fny 2y ago
These are all rhetorical techniques to make your idea their idea. If you ever want to get anything done in painfully structured or faux-flat orgs, this is the way. Why this psyop works: 1. People like to take credit for things. 2. People don't like to be wrong. 3. People get irked when a good idea wasn't their idea. 4. People don't like to feel threatened. 5. Just remove the duck. The examples given are a little contrived, but the techniques applied are gold for more tricky scenarios.
- bargainbot3k 2y ago
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  - slater 2y ago
    What watermelon?
    - zahlman 2y ago
      Based on other comments similarly barely making any sense, I think that account is some kind of chatbot tuned to try to make generic comments that fit in on HN.
- loup-vaillant 2y ago
  > These are all rhetorical techniques to make your idea their idea. Ok, cool, I've heard this a gazillion times by now. I don't disagree, it does looks like it's better at getting shit done. Just one question: how do I get credited for anything? I have my career to look out for too.
  - fny 2y ago
    You involve yourself in executing the idea and talk up those contributions. If it turns out you were wrong, hide.
peppertree 2y ago
Feedback is pointless. Vote with your feet. If a team has high churn it's guaranteed the leadership is garbage.
- terminalbraid 2y ago
  I agree voting with your feet is good and underutilized, but it's also extremely expensive for both sides. There's no successful group that didn't need feedback or even internal conflict (with healthy resolution) to be successful.
5cott0 2y ago
Captain Miller: "I don't gripe to you, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger." Private Reiben: "I'm sorry, sir, but uh... let's say you weren't a captain, or maybe I was a major. What would you say then?" Captain Miller: Well, in that case... I'd say, "This is an excellent mission, sir, with an extremely valuable objective, sir, worthy of my best efforts, sir. Moreover... I feel heartfelt sorrow for the mother of Private James Ryan and am willing to lay down my life and the lives of my men - especially you, Reiben - to ease her suffering." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc Saving Private Ryan
- thanksgiving 2y ago
  I don’t get it. He said gripe to his superior but he is basically kissing ass?
  - inopinatus 2y ago
    No, that is exactly how you inform a superior officer that you believe the mission is a waste of time, effort, equipment, and manpower, and will probably get everyone killed for next-to-no benefit.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - rendall 2y ago
    I interpreted it to mean that he was still Captain and part of his job was to keep up morale and model positive attitude. Even hypothetically, he was not going to gripe to his troops, and as far as they are concerned, he believes it is a worthy mission. He was jokingly modeling the proper, positive attitude. All this was understood by his men.
    - deleted 2y ago
jen729w 2y ago
This is a lesson to us all, though. Like it or not — and it'll vary depending on your geography and industry and so on, I know — this is an issue of at least some proportion. So, just be aware. Many of us are someone's boss. You might not feel like you're 'senior', but to them you are. Be open. Listen. Don't react (immediately). Consider. Just stop and think for a second. Realise that these other people's views are, at the very least, worth considering. (They may, of course, be wrong.) One of the most rewarding things I did before I left the corporate world was have a 26-year-old grad as a direct report. I was 46 and had 'Head of…' in my job title. She was as smart as anything and it was an incredible experience. Hopefully, for us both.
palata 2y ago
In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for them: there is no karma out there. Bad managers usually have no problem climbing the ladder, even if it means making your life miserable. Work for you, not them.
- carimura 2y ago
  wow that's quite black or white. really good managers should want your feedback. even if there are no obvious problems, groups can always be better. and don't forget sometimes large problems start small.
  - palata 2y ago
    Yes, that was a blunt way of saying it, I admit it. Now given the number of upvotes, it seems like it resonates. A more nuanced way of saying this is that if you need to carefully think about how you address your manager, then it hints towards the fact that your manager is not good at being a manager. And in that case there is no way you can teach them if you are their report (if you know better, maybe you should be the manager instead, but it means that you put your manager in a bad position by showing it). It is also a bit extreme to say that a good manager never needs feedback. What I meant is that they don't need feedback about how they fundamentally behave as a manager. Of course they need to receive information from their reports (be it just "we can't do this because I just proved that it is technically impossible"). The difference is that with a good manager, you won't have to read articles teaching you how to not hurt their pride. And finally, the problem maybe on the side of the subordinate. But in that case it's not a problem of talking to the hierarchy: if an employee hurts his colleagues because they communication is too harsh, then of course there is something to improve there. But in my experience, employees tend to "blend in": if everybody talks trash of everything, then newcomers will adapt. If everybody is respectful, newcomers will be respectful.
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Kiro 2y ago
I love that I live in a country where I can just tell my superiors exactly how they suck and never risk getting fired. It might not be wise for other reasons but fire me they cannot.
anticorporate 2y ago
> If you don’t speak up, you’re robbing your organization of your good insights. No you're not. If your organization does not giving feedback easy, and safe, they're the ones who have failed. You don't owe them anything.
AdrianB1 2y ago
- ChatGPT, give me a few ideas on xxx - These are a few points for you to use Write an article with that. Get mentioned on HN.
passwordoops 2y ago
Without getting fired? "That's a brilliant idea! The only reason we won't execute is incompetence." Deviate and your career will stall at best
UltraSane 2y ago
One of the most annoying things in companies is how criticism only flows downwards and praise usually only only flows upwards.
postit 2y ago
I hope corporate ling like this stops for good. Seriously. Bad management is the norm, not the exception. We're all suffering from poor leadership at every level; I bet you all can count the good managers you've had on one hand. I'd rather live in a world where we could give blunt and direct feedback like, "You suck as a manager, why are you still insisting on this?" However, we live in a situation where the system will always push back against any dissenting voices, and in the end, back-patting and corporate camaraderie are what keep the wheels turning.
rietta 2y ago
What about the simple, "may I talk to you for a minute in private?" And then clearly state the information that you need to share.
dakiol 2y ago
At work I always give positive and friendly feedback, regardless of who is asking. I don’t need to put myself in a position in which the receiver didn’t like or misunderstood my feedback the wrong way. What for? I couldn’t care less about their professional development, and I don’t want to be a blocker in their path to promotion. I do my time, I get paid and move on. Don’t need drama at work.
asdefghyk 2y ago
I assume the mentioned feedback could be interpreted as critical. First I'd start by mentioning something they doing well OR something positive about them that relates to their job. Ie they have good attitude or get on good with co workers etc. Then I would move on to what it was thought needed "some improvement" Id mention the "positive outcome" that would result if the feedback I was about to give was implemented. I could even tone it down ...with the words "...my opinion ..." ie My opinion , is if we ( meaning the manager ) where to do "... what ever ..." it could result in this "....more desirable outcome..." I could soften it more by saying .... we tried this at my previous job ... and it gave "...whatever the positive result is " ( Giving effective feedback is a skill. I learnt how to do in a speech training program called "Toastmasters " We had a internal Toastmasters club for the company I worked add ( Not in the US ) with about 30 members. Often the other members where >several levels< above me. Me - a very junior person at the time. So had to give feedback to Senior staff about their speech. )
inopinatus 2y ago
This is entirely the perspective of an abusive CEO. As we say here in Australia, get fucked. What an entitled grub.
firefoxd 2y ago
I think this article is teaching you how to dance on a song that isn't being played for you. Unless the feedback is something that is going to benefit, or improve your own work, then toss it aside. My experience [1]. Unless your company is in pursuit of a noble human endeavor, just make sure you get some good work done, and make good connections along them way. The truth is rarely what a company seeks. So if your manager is imperfect, don't sweat it. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903
ideasphere 2y ago
I agree that bluntness is often mishandled, but the sort of language in this article just reads as wildly disingenuous. Obfuscating your actual point (and visceral, human feelings/opinions/experience!) to hopefully confuse your subject into compliance. Makes me think of that brain-dead article a few years back about how you should dodge offering support in close personal relationships. “I don’t have capacity,” “I’m not paid to perform emotional labour” etc. Sad! Promote humanity!
piwah74802 2y ago
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piwah74802 2y ago
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piwah74802 2y ago
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yodsanklai 2y ago
> How to give a senior leader feedback (without getting fired) I don't do it because it can play against me in the worst case. And I won't get anything out of it. People can be more sensitive than it seems and unsolicited feedback isn't always welcome. My company is big on feedback, so we're expected to give peers and managers feedback. I never fill the "constructive feedback" part of the form, or I just put something harmless. We also have anonymous evaluation forms. If something is wrong with manager or leadership, it'll show there.
j45 2y ago
One rule I try to remember with leaders is to speak for impact and not impressing them. Dealing with senior leaders (VP/Director, not C-suite) can be different too. Managing up and influencing others may work well, or not at all. Working one's way up in different workplaces, industries and regions can vary wildly and I would probably caution from my own experience in a lot of verticals that it's best to get to know the scenario and see if you can recognize what might help.
GianFabien 2y ago
My very simple process: Do you want the job? or Do you want to be right? If you choose to be right, then get a job where you can be right. Probably means becoming a manager.
creer 2y ago
One foremost aspect I see missing in the discussion is: "It depends" It depends massively and that's the main problem. So I'd focus on understanding how that works with this specific manager M you are concerned about. It will be different with another manager. After that it's detail. Managers are human, flawed, not anywhere near rational (not fully rational anyway), and in some cases crooked or insane. Just like their reports and bosses, kind of? Try and feel out how that manager operates before "doing anyone a service". In particular, it means not relying on the idea that they would reason the same as you do. Because for example, absolutely "providing info so they get to look good, privately so there is no loss of face" will blow up in your face with some managers. Even if it's to the detriment of that manager. In some cases, it will be even worse than this because that manager will be well ahead of you and already have their own plans in place for their own future. In a case like this it's not even necessarily possible for you to imagine what reaction you might get. To be fair, there is a general plan available for you: Cultivate a network, keep your resume in front of people. Then you can be bolder.
cryptozeus 2y ago
Superiors love to solve their problem first, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way but they are dealing with 10 times issues compare to your own level issues. Manager > Team Lead > IC so start there. Dont just complaint about superior, try to deal with it from problem solving approach.
ph4evers 2y ago
I’m too Dutch for this kind of indirectness. Say it without the fluff and not in public and everything will be fine.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  I love the Dutch 'no bollocking around' method, but it translates horribly to non-Dutch. Which is a real shame. With my Dutch friends, one colleague, I know exactly where I stand. Everyone/ everywhere else (often Americans, but the Brits are catching up), fluffs and huffs and puffs - and then start 'things' in the background.
ilitirit 2y ago
This title of my article doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you get fired for giving feedback? Is this just a US thing? I give feedback to my superiors all the time, and expect my subordinates to do the same. In fact, as far as my team goes, you're more likely to get into trouble (not fired) if you rarely give feedback.
- lazystar 2y ago
  when your boss is a one-upper who doesnt understand your teams product, they will do everything possible to sabatoge your efforts and spin metrics to make you look bad. attempting to give feedback to such a person will get you this response: "you need to earn trust and learn to disagree and commit". idk if this is a US thing; its mainly a thing where a manager is tasked with supporting a product that they dont understand. managers in these situations attempt to treat their managerial role as if the product itself does not matter - the team has metrics to hit, and to them thats more important than the product.
  - ilitirit 2y ago
    > give feedback to such a person will get you this response: "you need to earn trust and learn to disagree and commit" Sure, but you won't get fired, right? Even so, this is just about dealing in general with people who have ego (for the sake of brevity) issues. I don't understand why this should be advice for dealing with senior leadership in general.
    - lazystar 2y ago
      > Sure, but you won't get fired, right? in my experience, they will start an email paper trail as a precursor to a PIP.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    It's not only US thing, eastern european too. We're on average rather alright developers but culturally there's no skill of good management - we have been destroyed in this aspect by Soviet occupation and communism.
rendall 2y ago
This is all cultural. As an immigrant from New York to a Nordic country, I have been lucky enough to experience two working cultures intimately. New Yorkers are considered blunt and no-nonsense, but I had no idea. Nordics are utter minimalists when it comes to feedback. It is unadorned and without any frills whatsoever. None of this couching the ouch between two positives. Nordics make New Yorkers look like Californians. They will genuinely be confused by American-style feedback. Did you ever notice that we use a lot of superlatives? Something we like is the best, we love it, it's the greatest ever? That's not bad, it's just our style of talking, but the untrained Nordic will take that seriously. I have to tone that way down: "That code is really well done." Moreover, you are required to give truthful feedback, here. It's not optional. If you think something is a bad idea and you don't say anything, you are doing a bad. If somehow you're caught not saying something, or worse, lying and saying you think it's a good idea, you will be in trouble and lose reputation. This approach to giving and getting feedback took some getting used to, but I find it refreshing and I am afraid I'm spoiled for any other way.
sixhobbits 2y ago
There are a lot of comments about the up vs down hierarchy thing, but I think it's not really the most important factor for "giving feedback", which here seems to mean more "advocating for change". The important factors are - do you have a good understanding of where your goals and priorities differ and where they overlap? Maybe you want to reduce tech debt and your manager wants to hit q3 goals. Then saying "spending 1 week addressing this issue will allow us to implement features a,b,c in 2 weeks instead of 4" is stating your goal with an emphasis on how it helps manager get to theirs. - do you have an existing relationship of trust? Humans are pretty tribal. If person you're talking to up or down defaults to "this is an ally who usually says competent things" then you can be much more direct and blunt. "Your idea is stupid because of these flaws that you didn't consider". If you don't have that trust, then some of the sugar coating "fluff" is necessary to avoid emotional reactions.
hcfman 2y ago
Re-title the article to be called “How can I suck up EVEN MORE than I am now” I understand the wisdom that they are trying to convey. But sucking up to those on higher pay grades like this for the greater good of the company? I think if it’s that dangerous providing feedback to the company then upper management need to put even more effort into determining who makes good leadership material.
throwaway346434 2y ago
This is all bad advice. A bad manager is rarely ignorant they are bad; they are often going to be insecure having moved outside of their comfort zone. A good leader is going to be aware they often act terribly and invite you to their world view - who knows, you could be wrong. You can coddle bad managers as this article suggests; but take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Will this person cause harm, death, or injury due to their decision making or lack there of? Attempt to fix them for a limited duration or get the hell out. Do it in a collaborative way, where you can enable them to make the right choices. That doesn't work? Get out. Don't enable them to cause harm.
localhost3000 2y ago
In my experience one of the best ways to "get ahead" is to give direct 1:1 feedback to someone higher up in your management chain for something that you are obviously right about it (some wiggle room here, but be sure to be atleast mostly right on a non-trivial topic). It demonstrates to them that you have good judgement and have backbone. They will trust you more and start to think of you as more of a peer than merely someone in their span of control (obviously you need to do this tactfully / not be a dick about it but also be firm). This has been a huge unlock for my career. ymmv.
humanfromearth9 2y ago
Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. But you really may/should plant the seeds of ideas in their brains. You discuss concepts, fundamental stuff that will grow into their brain and make them change. This takes time, patience and repetition, like educating a kid. It's actually the same, nothing has changed there. And you remain modest and ready to learn and listen. Especially because your superiors always have information that you don't have and which might explain decisions which you don't understand, and won't without this information. And you don't "tell", you ask about topics, and show interest. Then you might be able to propose real help to your boss, and suggest him to delegate some responsibility to you. And that's where you have some agency to create meaningful change. Bingo.
- casenmgreen 2y ago
  > Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. Concur. In hierarchical organizations, with power over your job security and prospects held by the person above you, bad news does not travel upwards.
ninalanyon 2y ago
> If you do speak up, you might put your employment and well-being at risk. I'm so glad i spent most of my career in Norway where that is so much less likely. In fact it putting your employment at risk is really so unlikely as to not be worth consideration. Well being is of course a bit harder to quantify and control.
bravetraveler 2y ago
Back pressure is an important characteristic of a functional system. Don't dress it up.
greybox 2y ago
Should be renamed: "How to not offend people with fragile self-esteem"
plank 2y ago
Dutch person here (have been told we are some of the most direct people): my experience is that it is not the words but the intention. E.g. the 'give more training' example: 'I do not understand why we do not give more training. It seemed to help with Steve, why are we not doing more so'. And being genuinely interested in the answer. Do not assume you are always right in assuming more training helps, but ask yourself why it may not be. Having an open mind can really help. And perhaps you were right to be astonished in 95% of situations, in 5% (or more) you might learn something. Other things are certainly true: it may be better to ask that question in private, as opposed to while the leader addresses the whole staff.
meindnoch 2y ago
Very simple. Make sure the feedback is positive. You can give negative feedback on Glassdoor.
mikkom 2y ago
What an awful title and premise. Senior leaders who can't take feedback without firing you should be fired immediately. Br, CTO
Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
It’s also important to note that scrum masters, product owners and business analysts, despite what the company org chart may lead you to believe, belong to middle management and need to be treated accordingly. Scrum masters are particularly dangerous because they are highly skilled at blending in by speaking and acting like developers. That’s why they are so popular to spend project money on despite their apparent uselessness.
wtcactus 2y ago
The moment I'm in a position where I can't say - politely of course, like I do to any other person at work - that I think the direction they are taking is wrong, is the moment I'll start searching for another job.
loup-vaillant 2y ago
One important option seem to be entirely missing here: Start. A. Union. It seems the real problem here is the power difference between people, combined with the powerful side not having a thick enough skin… or lacking the actual competence that we ought to expect of their position. A competent leader will not be offended or feel threatened by a piece of feedback, however negative: either the feedback is crap and they'll calmly say "nope, trust me I know what I'm doing here", or the feedback has enough truth in it for them to say "oops, I'll do better next time", and then proceed to actually do better. An incompetent leader however likely know they're incompetent, and they're less likely to meaningfully judge feedback. They're more likely to look for social validation, and more importantly secure their position. Any negative feedback threatens that position, and when that feedback comes from below, the solution is obvious: slap the peasant down, perhaps even fire them. Often there's little you can do around those people. For instance, I once applied for a contracting gig that would involve cryptographic work. I was rejected because I was "more competent than the project lead". My guess is the hiring manager there knew that if they brought in someone more competent than the project lead, things would go bad. Quite the indictment of the project lead if you ask me. My best project lead on the other hand had no problem being a worse programmer than the people under him (the tech lead for sure, and I probably). He worked on the parts he could, trusted us to do our thing, and I trusted him with telling me the priorities. Best gig of my entire career.
- foldr 2y ago
  >A competent leader will not be offended or feel threatened by a piece of feedback Replace 'competent' with 'perfect'. Most people are very easily offended or threatened by negative feedback. One can argue that they shouldn't be, ideally, but I don't think you can really say that anyone who's not maximally receptive to negative feedback is incompetent.
deleted 2y ago
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sgt 2y ago
Jesus, most of this is just tip toeing around feedback, turning 3 words into 30. Just be direct but say it in a friendly, yet humble way.
virtualritz 2y ago
Sounds culturally biased. From working in northern Europe and especially with people from Scandinavian countries, I'd say that for each of those examples the 'wrong' choice would be the more likely to be exchanged and taken at face value. Whereas when I work with people from the US a lot of fluff is always needed or offense may be taken. Just as the article purports. And there is also body language. Here is one of my favorite exchanges I once witnessed, between two senior leaders, one Spanish, one Finnish, after a few beers at a company party. I leave it to the inclined reader to guess who is from which country. Sergio (gesticulating, grinning): Lauri, why don't you use your hands more when you're talking? Lauri (hands flat on the table, straight face): Because it's not efficient.
- draw_down 2y ago
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zug_zug 2y ago
The interesting thing in my mind is how dysfunctional I've found reporting chains' behavior (to the company). I've found the same thing others here have found -- certain cultural backgrounds or a large preponderance of H1Bs create a culture where upward feedback is silenced. And in the end usually the company loses out - directors forge ahead with ill-informed projects (rewrite entire system X), don't measure/cherry-pick/game-metrics, and create a major threat to anybody on the team who surfaces any contraindicating metrics (e.g. "Our pipeline still takes Y hours and nobody is happy about it, including us").
zuppy 2y ago
i was in that position of receiving a negative feedback over certain things from one of the people i manage (and i believe any manager has been at least once). surprise, i’m not perfect :-) the best way to tell it is to be direct, with examples. i want to know that, i want to improve myself. i only expect perfect honesty. it’s good for both parties. i’m a no bs guy. tell me things straight, good and bad, i will do the same always in a fair honest way. i expect nothing else and there are no repercussions for that. in the end, if you are unhappy and you do nothing about it, nothing will change.
xyst 2y ago
I used to be able to tell my bosses to “fuck off” (usually ones I got well with) when asked something absolutely absurd; or just tell the plain truth. Now in this hypercapitalistic world, you have to fluff your feedback so you don’t hurt their fragile egos.
la64710 2y ago
And then from her other article : Give enough context to avoid back-and-forth follow ups. Don’t be coy when you can be direct. Don’t speak in stream of consciousness. Assume your manager is task switching or checking your Slack message between meetings—make it super easy for them to catch up on context and dive into what you want to discuss.
interludead 2y ago
The "even more" technique is brilliant because it bypasses the natural defensiveness that feedback can trigger, especially in hierarchical settings. Framing suggestions as amplifications of existing strengths is genius.
everyone 2y ago
If I'm gonna be fired for being honest and trying to do a good job, then I'm quitting.
pmarreck 2y ago
This is not the first conversation on HN about management and feedback I've seen where the wide range of opinion and disagreement may reflect only 4 possible things: 1) There is some ideal way to interact that exists, but is not yet known, so we're all essentially still just fumbling in the dark and occasionally encountering light from an as-yet-unknown source 2) There is some ideal way to interact that is more or less understood by some but not all because it is simply not being communicated well (the rate of incoming employees is greater than the rate of knowledge spread- incidentally, this is the same problem I suspect exists with functional languages being perennially less-popular) 3) There is some ideal way to interact that is understood and known but is incompatible with existing and persistent (stable dysfunctional equilibrium) dysfunctionalities in orgs 4) There is in fact no ideal way to interact in a hierarchy because it is largely dependent on the individual personalities of the participants as well as the setup of the org
- cyanydeez 2y ago
  Mmm. There's also the 4th option is probably better expanded to, individual perception of communication are encoded and decided using fundamentally incompatible protocols because of entirely differing status, background, wealth and social structure. I don't think personality real encapsulates it. I don't believe Elon musks personality has changed, but his fundamental GIGO has.
iancmceachern 2y ago
Just don't. It will never work out in your benefit. Just dont.
callc 2y ago
I’m sick of dealing with managers and bad leaders, and want to get back to coding and building cool stuff. Is there any solution for this? Co-op? Contract work? Consultancy? Union? Flat org structure? Self employment? Start a company with a couple of engineer friends and have flat org, based on trust? I’m guessing only the last two options are promising. I’d appreciate hearing everyone’s stories, as I am genuinely interested.
- maxnevermind 2y ago
  I hope that in the future maybe AI will be to organize people better in larger organizations so people are more focused on doing productive work instead of endlessly aligning on things and the hoard of people doing alignment in large organizations can find a better use of their time.
kunley 2y ago
Once I got fired because commented when boss smoked weed at work and liked to be intoxicated at workplace by other means as well. Who can beat that
rapjr9 2y ago
People have ego's. Instead of saying they are wrong, adopt their perspective and help them discover your perspective. They may like your perspective and adopt it as their own reasoned opinion, lead them to it, and then they may adopt it and own it. Sometimes you'll find they have unstated reasons for choices, find workarounds for them. This is a basic human skill everyone should understand.
ElevenLathe 2y ago
These seem like decent tricks but make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. IME you can't change anyone's mind about anything, and trying will usually piss them off. If you don't like your boss, go shopping for a new one instead of trying to reform the one you have.

407 points by RobinHirst11 2y ago

Answer: they need to be open to hearing it first, and you need to be someone they trust. How to build trust? Make it clear you are on their 'side'. Luckily giving feedback can be that way: - Give any positive feedback publicly - Give any negative feedback privately - Rather than give negative feedback, come with concrete things that could be done to improve things. Try not to assign blame. Do this consistently while being good at your job and they are more likely to not misinterpret your opinions as rationalization

Tracybrownn88 2y ago

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DavidBecklin45 2y ago

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lisper 2y ago

Another tactic I like to use is a riff on the authors suggestion #3: “Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” This works because it’s framed as accepting the decision and being genuinely curious about the rationale. Often the answer is: no, I never really gave it any thought. Other times there turns out to be a good reason that didn’t occur to me and it turns into a learning experience for me. Another tactic that works for me is “Can I offer a suggestion?” The answer is almost always yes but it’s a sign of respect to ask.

calmbonsai 2y ago
This is excellent advice. In general, offering feedback in the form of a question is an extremely underutilized way of beginning a productive dialog. Unfortunately, likely due to surveys, most people are accustomed only offering declarations in lieu of interrogatives.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
Depends on the profile, when somebody talks to me like that I immediately cringe in my head and lose all respect for the person. Probably a matter of culture too.
- lpapez 2y ago
  Same here - whenever I see someone trying to get around giving honest feedback, and trying to frame it as "humble curiosity" instead, I immediately assume they read some "leadership" articles and are trying to apply it because they are second guessing themselves. I believe it depends a lot on the culture, but I am much more used to either keeping my mouth shut (when there is nothing on the line) or being blunt (when it matters). Either way, no sugarcoating or "being curious".
  - lisper 2y ago
    The problem with being more assertive is that there is always the possibility that you are wrong and the person you are "correcting" is right. Opening with an assertion makes it hard to save face in that case.
- thethirdone 2y ago
  This seems like a very shallow way of thinking. "Losing all respect for the person" implies that you think this is NEVER an appropriate way to address someone. Phrasing a disagreement of opinion as a question of reasoning is often the best course of action. In particular if a choice has been made and going back to reverse it has significant costs, it is important to not say anything like "We should not be doing this" or "You made a mistake." Unless there is a good of action to reverse course that is simply being rude for no reason. Even in the case where there is a good way to reverse a decision, I would rather ask for the reasoning that led to the decision than strongly state the decision is wrong. If I am working with someone I respect at all, I must entertain the thought that I am wrong and they made the right decision with good reasoning. What would you say to a superior who made a decision that you disagree with, but don't think is worth reversing? My best guess is either nothing or something that more strongly asserts your belief, but I can't think of any better option than phrasing it as a question.
kaffekaka 2y ago
In my experience, those phrases are more often used to disguise the real intent: "you are doing it wrong and I can't stand it". I think the best feedback comes from people who have tried to understand the reasons other people have, before asking "is there a reason ...?".
lupire 2y ago
Your manager often admits they do bad things for no reason?
- lisper 2y ago
  It's more like, "No, I didn't have any particular reason for doing it this way, if you have a better idea, go for it."
switch007 2y ago
> "Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” I think many people would take that as a direct challenge of their decision. I'm no human expert but personally I'd try something like "Man I bet you had to make some tradeoffs and juggle priorities over $X right ! ..." and then see what they offer up. At the water-cooler, bar etc > "Can I offer a suggestion?” It's not the done thing to say no to that but depending on the tone a lot of people would then just ignore whatever comes out your mouth

danjl 2y ago

Actually this is good advice for giving feedback to anyone.

flog 2y ago

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

bradlys 2y ago
It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actually be able to speak up about something without getting fired.
- fcarraldo 2y ago
  In my experience, Americans are much more likely to see criticism as a threat or an insult than in most European business cultures, where blunt feedback is common. I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. It’s absurd, and it destroys teams.
  - csa 2y ago
    > I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. I’ve been put into the “practitioner of the dark arts” bucket twice when I predicted with detail and accuracy why certain large projects would fail. The folks in charge were offended when I presented my analysis, and they were just afraid of me after my predictions came true.
    - steveBK123 2y ago

lijok 2y ago

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume. The reason you fluff up feedback to your subordinates is because lower down the chain they tend to be insecure and don't yet have the experience to distinguish between actionable impartial feedback, and threats to their job security. The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations.

freejazz 2y ago
> they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. Be sure to tell them that too!
johnfn 2y ago
The notion that there are only two options: that your superiors should be perfect receptors of all information, no matter how poorly phrased, or that you should begin "polishing your resume", is immature. The world is more complex than this.
codr7 2y ago
Thank God I didn't have to write all of that myself :) Well said!
fny 2y ago
I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The implication is that you’re in a situation where management is stubborn or even hostile to feedback. Most organizations don’t practice “highly effective communication”. It’s often a nightmare riddled with politics and ego.
- Rygian 2y ago
  > I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The "start polishing your resume" bit was quite explicit.

rrr_oh_man 2y ago

Do not give feedback to your boss. https://www.manager-tools.com/2012/02/do-not-give-feedback-your-boss-hall-fame-guidance https://www.manager-tools.com/2012/02/do-not-give-feedback-y...

antiframe 2y ago
Would you be so kind provide a summary of your link? The show notes cost $15!
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  NotebookLM is very decent at giving summaries to lengthy audio files: The sources strongly advise against giving feedback to your boss, even if your boss claims to be open to it. This is due to the inherent power dynamics in organizations and the potential negative consequences. Here's why: - Power Differentials: Organizations have vertical structures where bosses have more power, authority, and responsibility [1-3]. This means that certain behaviors, like giving feedback, are reserved for those in higher positions [3]. - Risk of Negative Reaction: Even if a boss claims to be open to feedback, they might react negatively, consciously or subconsciously, to criticism from their subordinates [4-6]. This can lead to: - Damaged Relationships: The boss may view the feedback as insubordination or a lack of respect, straining the relationship [7]. Stalled Career Progress: The boss may hold a grudge, potentially impacting future promotions or opportunities [7]. - Job Security: In extreme cases, giving unsolicited feedback could even lead to termination [8]. - Misinterpretation and Misunderstanding: Bosses often interpret upward feedback as a challenge to their authority or a lack of understanding of the complexities of their role [9, 10]. They might feel that the direct is overstepping their boundaries or does not have enough experience to offer valid criticisms [11]. - Breakdown of Hierarchy: Allowing upward feedback can blur the lines of authority and lead to a situation where directs feel empowered to dictate their boss's actions [9]. This can create chaos and undermine the effectiveness of the team. - False Sense of Openness: Many bosses want to believe they are open to feedback, but in reality, very few are truly capable of handling it maturely and constructively [12, 13]. Their initial openness might just be a facade that crumbles when faced with actual criticism [14]. The sources highlight that while it's tempting to give upward feedback, especially with good intentions, it's generally unproductive and carries significant risks. They advocate for focusing on alternative approaches like offering suggestions during brainstorming sessions or providing input through formalized channels like 360 reviews, while exercising extreme caution even in those situations.

codr7 2y ago

I don't think tip toeing around people like this is a solution at all. But I've never worked in the US. Some important questions: 1) Why are they a leader at all? 2) Why are they your chosen leader?

parpfish 2y ago
Just like there are plenty of employed, bad devs there are employed, bad leaders/managers. Maybe they aren’t good at it, or maybe they’re new to managing and this is one skill where they will get better.
- codr7 2y ago
  I'm thinking maybe we should be more careful in general with who we give these kinds of responsibilities to.
  - parpfish 2y ago
    People can grow into their roles. You don’t expect junior devs to know everything one day one, so why would you expect a “junior[1]” manager? [1] I know the article is about senior managers, but it reads as though the mean “somebody more senior than me” and not “somebody who has been managing a long time”
    - codr7 2y ago
      The difference is the damage done. I don't think training managers on real people is a good idea.
      - loup-vaillant 2y ago
        Genuine question: how do we train managers, then? Surgeons have pigs, but even then it's not perfect, and there comes a point where they have to perform surgeries on actual humans (hopefully under supervision).

notnmeyer 2y ago

pretty interesting. i think i fall on the blunt end of the communication spectrum, so this gave me some things to think about.

cess11 2y ago

It's not a senior leader if they aren't spending a lot of time prying out this kind of information from their team already. Looking at their web page this author seems like a professional bullshitter that pivoted into enabling other bullshitters, for a fee.

kybernetikos 2y ago

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give good feedback to anyone you need to understand something about the pressures and challenges that they are facing. And remember that everything is a trade off. For example, perhaps they're incredibly busy, and would like to spend more time with new hires, but are struggling to find time because they aren't getting enough blocks of concentration time to work out clear priorities and they have been told they need to give their trusted colleague more opportunities to grow so they delegated it to someone. Most likely, if you think something is a problem then they do too. They don't need to be told that or criticised for it, they need help solving the problem that causes the problem. Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." As I started doing more leadership, I became aware that a lot of the things I might previously have cited as predictable examples of leadership incompetence causing problems were not surprises to leadership. They knew that this course of action would cause problems. The reason that they went ahead anyway was because they believed that the problems caused by the other courses of action available to them would be worse. Of course, there are situations this advice does not apply, maybe the leader genuinely is clueless or evil or mistaken about the severity of a problem, but a good leader when presented with a problem elsewhere needs to start from a position of respect and learning and if you want to give advice to a leader you should start by trying to model good leadership yourself.

cdavid 2y ago
> Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." This is the proper answer. Ultimately, feedback should be about changing something. My experience is that most people are neither good at giving or receiving feedback, and that includes myself. There are more effective ways to change things. OP's is useful when you have to give feedback, which is expected in most large companies in some form or other (evals, etc.).

somishere 2y ago

Leaders don't hold all the power. As others have said, I think this is a good approach for everyone - showing a bit of empathy and "you don't know what you don't know" when corresponding with people. In fact it's good leadership 101. Edit: can anyone suggest any good (free) tools for eliciting 360 feedback? Potentially anonymously?

terminalbraid 2y ago

I disagree with much of the premise and frankly don't think this person should be giving advice. Some of what's in there isn't bad like "be thoughtful about what you say". However, if you already feel something needs to be changed to the point where you're thinking something needs to be said but then you follow the article to force yourself to ask questions like > “Can I live with this? How much does this bother me? Is it worth giving them feedback and what are my chances of success doing it?” and doing multiple rounds of this you are compromising with yourself at an early stage. This frequently leads to things escalating (the problem didn't go away and in fact got incrementally worse because there was no negative feedback) which makes it a much harder situation. This article is also written with examples like, if you don't make small changes to your wording, you'll get responses like "You think I don’t know that I need to give new hires guidance? I obviously gave them guidance. GTFO." which clearly catastrophizes outcomes based on small nuances in your own already inoffensive language. Feedback is like gardening. Take care of small problems early and gently but relentlessly. If there's a wolf in your garden you should probably do something about the wolf instead of working around the wolf and spending your life in fear, even if that means finding a different garden. I will recommend the book "The Coward's Guide to Conflict" which helped me get a healthy perspective. https://www.amazon.com/Cowards-Guide-Conflict-Empowering-Solutions/dp/1402200552 https://www.amazon.com/Cowards-Guide-Conflict-Empowering-Sol...

bambax 2y ago

In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up. Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is nothing scandalous in having another person evaluate those decisions against a set of principles or common sense, and speaking up when something doesn't feel right. Better that than crashing into a mountain.

MrMcCall 2y ago
That story in Gladwell about the (IIRC) Korean Air having to switch cockpit languages to English in order to escape the intrinsic layers of deference built into the language was hardcore. They were going to get delisted in Canada if they didn't do it. Yeah, better than crashing into a mountain. That cockpit voice recording was really chilling. Gladwell gets a lot of flack, but he's told some interesting stories. And your further point about businesses needing it too should be expanded to organizations of all kinds. This is a human problem, which means it's an ego problem, on both sides.
- ptx 2y ago
  > Gladwell gets a lot of flack, but he's told some interesting stories. Isn't the flack he's getting due to exactly that, that his stories would be interesting if true but often aren't?
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    I haven't followed stories about him, but I doubt that all or even most of his stories were made up. I mean, the Korean Air (IIRC) one can't have been fudged, right?
- specialist 2y ago
  He recently did a mea culpa about the tipping point stuff. Glad he did. I really, really disliked Gladwell. And yet Pushkin (his podcast network) carries some of the best stuff ever (Jill Lepore). And I found I was agreeing with a lot of Gladwell's (and Michael Lewis') overall "punching up" worldview. So I was having trouble reconciliing my two views of him. As we've seen with Lewis' recent hagiography for that crypto freak: people are just people, they make mistakes, everyone's got blind spots, we don't have to agree on everything to learn from each other.

flymaipie 2y ago

Why on earth would someone deserve to be fired based on mere "feedback"? As long as it's not an outright offensive rant, it should be handled sensibly. But even if it is an offensive rant, firing should be a last resort. The amount of toxic subordination that's assumed to be normal is sickening.

IshKebab 2y ago
It's exaggeration. You might not get fired but it will absolutely affect your raises & bonuses.

teaearlgraycold 2y ago

If you’re not on a visa and don’t have kids I’d recommend simply not caring if you get fired by insecure leadership. You’re better off elsewhere if they would do that.

brunooliv 2y ago

I found strange to see so much criticism of the post as usually, anything that Wes Kao writes really resonates with me as a senior IC. Usually there’s a great balance of nuance and depth to the advice that makes it easy to digest and pick small bits and pieces to try out on my own context

01100011 2y ago
Nearly 30 years in the business here and I think most of what was said in the article is spot on if you are in an appropriate situation. Many commenters seem to take absolutist positions on this and think no one should ever allow themselves to be under a bad manager but it happens and then you need to effectively deal with it and these are some good techniques to do so. The techniques even apply to working with a good manager. You shouldn't just vomit every criticism or critique to your superior. You should engage in introspection and internal dialogue to see if your perspective is correct and if there is more you can do to address the issue before spamming your manager. If someone is offended by the article they might need to take a step back and ask if their ego has grown beyond its useful size.
- lucgray 2y ago
  Yeah I mean to generalize even further, these are techniques that can apply to your direct reports, your friends, your spouse. Giving feedback is definitely an art and a thin line between getting your point across in a clear way vs running up against ego or impatience. If you care about your org's success it's critical to know your audience, their approach and value system, and how to tailor your message to account for what will resonate with them. It's really tough stuff.
apeescape 2y ago
I absolutely hate having to say stuff in between the lines or trying to interpret veiled intentions. There's def no need to be pointlessly rude when giving criticism, but to me, beating around the bush is exhausting and often frustratingly ineffective.

fny 2y ago

These are all rhetorical techniques to make your idea their idea. If you ever want to get anything done in painfully structured or faux-flat orgs, this is the way. Why this psyop works: 1. People like to take credit for things. 2. People don't like to be wrong. 3. People get irked when a good idea wasn't their idea. 4. People don't like to feel threatened. 5. Just remove the duck. The examples given are a little contrived, but the techniques applied are gold for more tricky scenarios.

bargainbot3k 2y ago
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- slater 2y ago
  What watermelon?
  - zahlman 2y ago
    Based on other comments similarly barely making any sense, I think that account is some kind of chatbot tuned to try to make generic comments that fit in on HN.
loup-vaillant 2y ago
> These are all rhetorical techniques to make your idea their idea. Ok, cool, I've heard this a gazillion times by now. I don't disagree, it does looks like it's better at getting shit done. Just one question: how do I get credited for anything? I have my career to look out for too.
- fny 2y ago
  You involve yourself in executing the idea and talk up those contributions. If it turns out you were wrong, hide.

peppertree 2y ago

Feedback is pointless. Vote with your feet. If a team has high churn it's guaranteed the leadership is garbage.

terminalbraid 2y ago
I agree voting with your feet is good and underutilized, but it's also extremely expensive for both sides. There's no successful group that didn't need feedback or even internal conflict (with healthy resolution) to be successful.

5cott0 2y ago

Captain Miller: "I don't gripe to you, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger." Private Reiben: "I'm sorry, sir, but uh... let's say you weren't a captain, or maybe I was a major. What would you say then?" Captain Miller: Well, in that case... I'd say, "This is an excellent mission, sir, with an extremely valuable objective, sir, worthy of my best efforts, sir. Moreover... I feel heartfelt sorrow for the mother of Private James Ryan and am willing to lay down my life and the lives of my men - especially you, Reiben - to ease her suffering." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc Saving Private Ryan

thanksgiving 2y ago
I don’t get it. He said gripe to his superior but he is basically kissing ass?
- inopinatus 2y ago
  No, that is exactly how you inform a superior officer that you believe the mission is a waste of time, effort, equipment, and manpower, and will probably get everyone killed for next-to-no benefit.
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- rendall 2y ago
  I interpreted it to mean that he was still Captain and part of his job was to keep up morale and model positive attitude. Even hypothetically, he was not going to gripe to his troops, and as far as they are concerned, he believes it is a worthy mission. He was jokingly modeling the proper, positive attitude. All this was understood by his men.
  - deleted 2y ago

jen729w 2y ago

This is a lesson to us all, though. Like it or not — and it'll vary depending on your geography and industry and so on, I know — this is an issue of at least some proportion. So, just be aware. Many of us are someone's boss. You might not feel like you're 'senior', but to them you are. Be open. Listen. Don't react (immediately). Consider. Just stop and think for a second. Realise that these other people's views are, at the very least, worth considering. (They may, of course, be wrong.) One of the most rewarding things I did before I left the corporate world was have a 26-year-old grad as a direct report. I was 46 and had 'Head of…' in my job title. She was as smart as anything and it was an incredible experience. Hopefully, for us both.

palata 2y ago

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for them: there is no karma out there. Bad managers usually have no problem climbing the ladder, even if it means making your life miserable. Work for you, not them.

carimura 2y ago
wow that's quite black or white. really good managers should want your feedback. even if there are no obvious problems, groups can always be better. and don't forget sometimes large problems start small.
- palata 2y ago
  Yes, that was a blunt way of saying it, I admit it. Now given the number of upvotes, it seems like it resonates. A more nuanced way of saying this is that if you need to carefully think about how you address your manager, then it hints towards the fact that your manager is not good at being a manager. And in that case there is no way you can teach them if you are their report (if you know better, maybe you should be the manager instead, but it means that you put your manager in a bad position by showing it). It is also a bit extreme to say that a good manager never needs feedback. What I meant is that they don't need feedback about how they fundamentally behave as a manager. Of course they need to receive information from their reports (be it just "we can't do this because I just proved that it is technically impossible"). The difference is that with a good manager, you won't have to read articles teaching you how to not hurt their pride. And finally, the problem maybe on the side of the subordinate. But in that case it's not a problem of talking to the hierarchy: if an employee hurts his colleagues because they communication is too harsh, then of course there is something to improve there. But in my experience, employees tend to "blend in": if everybody talks trash of everything, then newcomers will adapt. If everybody is respectful, newcomers will be respectful.
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Kiro 2y ago

I love that I live in a country where I can just tell my superiors exactly how they suck and never risk getting fired. It might not be wise for other reasons but fire me they cannot.

anticorporate 2y ago

> If you don’t speak up, you’re robbing your organization of your good insights. No you're not. If your organization does not giving feedback easy, and safe, they're the ones who have failed. You don't owe them anything.

AdrianB1 2y ago

- ChatGPT, give me a few ideas on xxx - These are a few points for you to use Write an article with that. Get mentioned on HN.

passwordoops 2y ago

Without getting fired? "That's a brilliant idea! The only reason we won't execute is incompetence." Deviate and your career will stall at best

UltraSane 2y ago

One of the most annoying things in companies is how criticism only flows downwards and praise usually only only flows upwards.

postit 2y ago

I hope corporate ling like this stops for good. Seriously. Bad management is the norm, not the exception. We're all suffering from poor leadership at every level; I bet you all can count the good managers you've had on one hand. I'd rather live in a world where we could give blunt and direct feedback like, "You suck as a manager, why are you still insisting on this?" However, we live in a situation where the system will always push back against any dissenting voices, and in the end, back-patting and corporate camaraderie are what keep the wheels turning.

rietta 2y ago

What about the simple, "may I talk to you for a minute in private?" And then clearly state the information that you need to share.

dakiol 2y ago

At work I always give positive and friendly feedback, regardless of who is asking. I don’t need to put myself in a position in which the receiver didn’t like or misunderstood my feedback the wrong way. What for? I couldn’t care less about their professional development, and I don’t want to be a blocker in their path to promotion. I do my time, I get paid and move on. Don’t need drama at work.

asdefghyk 2y ago

I assume the mentioned feedback could be interpreted as critical. First I'd start by mentioning something they doing well OR something positive about them that relates to their job. Ie they have good attitude or get on good with co workers etc. Then I would move on to what it was thought needed "some improvement" Id mention the "positive outcome" that would result if the feedback I was about to give was implemented. I could even tone it down ...with the words "...my opinion ..." ie My opinion , is if we ( meaning the manager ) where to do "... what ever ..." it could result in this "....more desirable outcome..." I could soften it more by saying .... we tried this at my previous job ... and it gave "...whatever the positive result is " ( Giving effective feedback is a skill. I learnt how to do in a speech training program called "Toastmasters " We had a internal Toastmasters club for the company I worked add ( Not in the US ) with about 30 members. Often the other members where >several levels< above me. Me - a very junior person at the time. So had to give feedback to Senior staff about their speech. )

inopinatus 2y ago

This is entirely the perspective of an abusive CEO. As we say here in Australia, get fucked. What an entitled grub.

firefoxd 2y ago

I think this article is teaching you how to dance on a song that isn't being played for you. Unless the feedback is something that is going to benefit, or improve your own work, then toss it aside. My experience [1]. Unless your company is in pursuit of a noble human endeavor, just make sure you get some good work done, and make good connections along them way. The truth is rarely what a company seeks. So if your manager is imperfect, don't sweat it. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903

ideasphere 2y ago

I agree that bluntness is often mishandled, but the sort of language in this article just reads as wildly disingenuous. Obfuscating your actual point (and visceral, human feelings/opinions/experience!) to hopefully confuse your subject into compliance. Makes me think of that brain-dead article a few years back about how you should dodge offering support in close personal relationships. “I don’t have capacity,” “I’m not paid to perform emotional labour” etc. Sad! Promote humanity!

piwah74802 2y ago

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piwah74802 2y ago

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piwah74802 2y ago

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yodsanklai 2y ago

> How to give a senior leader feedback (without getting fired) I don't do it because it can play against me in the worst case. And I won't get anything out of it. People can be more sensitive than it seems and unsolicited feedback isn't always welcome. My company is big on feedback, so we're expected to give peers and managers feedback. I never fill the "constructive feedback" part of the form, or I just put something harmless. We also have anonymous evaluation forms. If something is wrong with manager or leadership, it'll show there.

j45 2y ago

One rule I try to remember with leaders is to speak for impact and not impressing them. Dealing with senior leaders (VP/Director, not C-suite) can be different too. Managing up and influencing others may work well, or not at all. Working one's way up in different workplaces, industries and regions can vary wildly and I would probably caution from my own experience in a lot of verticals that it's best to get to know the scenario and see if you can recognize what might help.

GianFabien 2y ago

My very simple process: Do you want the job? or Do you want to be right? If you choose to be right, then get a job where you can be right. Probably means becoming a manager.

creer 2y ago

One foremost aspect I see missing in the discussion is: "It depends" It depends massively and that's the main problem. So I'd focus on understanding how that works with this specific manager M you are concerned about. It will be different with another manager. After that it's detail. Managers are human, flawed, not anywhere near rational (not fully rational anyway), and in some cases crooked or insane. Just like their reports and bosses, kind of? Try and feel out how that manager operates before "doing anyone a service". In particular, it means not relying on the idea that they would reason the same as you do. Because for example, absolutely "providing info so they get to look good, privately so there is no loss of face" will blow up in your face with some managers. Even if it's to the detriment of that manager. In some cases, it will be even worse than this because that manager will be well ahead of you and already have their own plans in place for their own future. In a case like this it's not even necessarily possible for you to imagine what reaction you might get. To be fair, there is a general plan available for you: Cultivate a network, keep your resume in front of people. Then you can be bolder.

cryptozeus 2y ago

Superiors love to solve their problem first, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way but they are dealing with 10 times issues compare to your own level issues. Manager > Team Lead > IC so start there. Dont just complaint about superior, try to deal with it from problem solving approach.

ph4evers 2y ago

I’m too Dutch for this kind of indirectness. Say it without the fluff and not in public and everything will be fine.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago
I love the Dutch 'no bollocking around' method, but it translates horribly to non-Dutch. Which is a real shame. With my Dutch friends, one colleague, I know exactly where I stand. Everyone/ everywhere else (often Americans, but the Brits are catching up), fluffs and huffs and puffs - and then start 'things' in the background.

ilitirit 2y ago

This title of my article doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you get fired for giving feedback? Is this just a US thing? I give feedback to my superiors all the time, and expect my subordinates to do the same. In fact, as far as my team goes, you're more likely to get into trouble (not fired) if you rarely give feedback.

lazystar 2y ago
when your boss is a one-upper who doesnt understand your teams product, they will do everything possible to sabatoge your efforts and spin metrics to make you look bad. attempting to give feedback to such a person will get you this response: "you need to earn trust and learn to disagree and commit". idk if this is a US thing; its mainly a thing where a manager is tasked with supporting a product that they dont understand. managers in these situations attempt to treat their managerial role as if the product itself does not matter - the team has metrics to hit, and to them thats more important than the product.
- ilitirit 2y ago
  > give feedback to such a person will get you this response: "you need to earn trust and learn to disagree and commit" Sure, but you won't get fired, right? Even so, this is just about dealing in general with people who have ego (for the sake of brevity) issues. I don't understand why this should be advice for dealing with senior leadership in general.
  - lazystar 2y ago
    > Sure, but you won't get fired, right? in my experience, they will start an email paper trail as a precursor to a PIP.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  It's not only US thing, eastern european too. We're on average rather alright developers but culturally there's no skill of good management - we have been destroyed in this aspect by Soviet occupation and communism.

rendall 2y ago

This is all cultural. As an immigrant from New York to a Nordic country, I have been lucky enough to experience two working cultures intimately. New Yorkers are considered blunt and no-nonsense, but I had no idea. Nordics are utter minimalists when it comes to feedback. It is unadorned and without any frills whatsoever. None of this couching the ouch between two positives. Nordics make New Yorkers look like Californians. They will genuinely be confused by American-style feedback. Did you ever notice that we use a lot of superlatives? Something we like is the best, we love it, it's the greatest ever? That's not bad, it's just our style of talking, but the untrained Nordic will take that seriously. I have to tone that way down: "That code is really well done." Moreover, you are required to give truthful feedback, here. It's not optional. If you think something is a bad idea and you don't say anything, you are doing a bad. If somehow you're caught not saying something, or worse, lying and saying you think it's a good idea, you will be in trouble and lose reputation. This approach to giving and getting feedback took some getting used to, but I find it refreshing and I am afraid I'm spoiled for any other way.

sixhobbits 2y ago

There are a lot of comments about the up vs down hierarchy thing, but I think it's not really the most important factor for "giving feedback", which here seems to mean more "advocating for change". The important factors are - do you have a good understanding of where your goals and priorities differ and where they overlap? Maybe you want to reduce tech debt and your manager wants to hit q3 goals. Then saying "spending 1 week addressing this issue will allow us to implement features a,b,c in 2 weeks instead of 4" is stating your goal with an emphasis on how it helps manager get to theirs. - do you have an existing relationship of trust? Humans are pretty tribal. If person you're talking to up or down defaults to "this is an ally who usually says competent things" then you can be much more direct and blunt. "Your idea is stupid because of these flaws that you didn't consider". If you don't have that trust, then some of the sugar coating "fluff" is necessary to avoid emotional reactions.

hcfman 2y ago

Re-title the article to be called “How can I suck up EVEN MORE than I am now” I understand the wisdom that they are trying to convey. But sucking up to those on higher pay grades like this for the greater good of the company? I think if it’s that dangerous providing feedback to the company then upper management need to put even more effort into determining who makes good leadership material.

throwaway346434 2y ago

This is all bad advice. A bad manager is rarely ignorant they are bad; they are often going to be insecure having moved outside of their comfort zone. A good leader is going to be aware they often act terribly and invite you to their world view - who knows, you could be wrong. You can coddle bad managers as this article suggests; but take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Will this person cause harm, death, or injury due to their decision making or lack there of? Attempt to fix them for a limited duration or get the hell out. Do it in a collaborative way, where you can enable them to make the right choices. That doesn't work? Get out. Don't enable them to cause harm.

localhost3000 2y ago

In my experience one of the best ways to "get ahead" is to give direct 1:1 feedback to someone higher up in your management chain for something that you are obviously right about it (some wiggle room here, but be sure to be atleast mostly right on a non-trivial topic). It demonstrates to them that you have good judgement and have backbone. They will trust you more and start to think of you as more of a peer than merely someone in their span of control (obviously you need to do this tactfully / not be a dick about it but also be firm). This has been a huge unlock for my career. ymmv.

humanfromearth9 2y ago

Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. But you really may/should plant the seeds of ideas in their brains. You discuss concepts, fundamental stuff that will grow into their brain and make them change. This takes time, patience and repetition, like educating a kid. It's actually the same, nothing has changed there. And you remain modest and ready to learn and listen. Especially because your superiors always have information that you don't have and which might explain decisions which you don't understand, and won't without this information. And you don't "tell", you ask about topics, and show interest. Then you might be able to propose real help to your boss, and suggest him to delegate some responsibility to you. And that's where you have some agency to create meaningful change. Bingo.

casenmgreen 2y ago
> Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. Concur. In hierarchical organizations, with power over your job security and prospects held by the person above you, bad news does not travel upwards.

ninalanyon 2y ago

> If you do speak up, you might put your employment and well-being at risk. I'm so glad i spent most of my career in Norway where that is so much less likely. In fact it putting your employment at risk is really so unlikely as to not be worth consideration. Well being is of course a bit harder to quantify and control.

bravetraveler 2y ago

Back pressure is an important characteristic of a functional system. Don't dress it up.

greybox 2y ago

Should be renamed: "How to not offend people with fragile self-esteem"

plank 2y ago

Dutch person here (have been told we are some of the most direct people): my experience is that it is not the words but the intention. E.g. the 'give more training' example: 'I do not understand why we do not give more training. It seemed to help with Steve, why are we not doing more so'. And being genuinely interested in the answer. Do not assume you are always right in assuming more training helps, but ask yourself why it may not be. Having an open mind can really help. And perhaps you were right to be astonished in 95% of situations, in 5% (or more) you might learn something. Other things are certainly true: it may be better to ask that question in private, as opposed to while the leader addresses the whole staff.

meindnoch 2y ago

Very simple. Make sure the feedback is positive. You can give negative feedback on Glassdoor.

mikkom 2y ago

What an awful title and premise. Senior leaders who can't take feedback without firing you should be fired immediately. Br, CTO

Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago

It’s also important to note that scrum masters, product owners and business analysts, despite what the company org chart may lead you to believe, belong to middle management and need to be treated accordingly. Scrum masters are particularly dangerous because they are highly skilled at blending in by speaking and acting like developers. That’s why they are so popular to spend project money on despite their apparent uselessness.

wtcactus 2y ago

The moment I'm in a position where I can't say - politely of course, like I do to any other person at work - that I think the direction they are taking is wrong, is the moment I'll start searching for another job.

loup-vaillant 2y ago

One important option seem to be entirely missing here: Start. A. Union. It seems the real problem here is the power difference between people, combined with the powerful side not having a thick enough skin… or lacking the actual competence that we ought to expect of their position. A competent leader will not be offended or feel threatened by a piece of feedback, however negative: either the feedback is crap and they'll calmly say "nope, trust me I know what I'm doing here", or the feedback has enough truth in it for them to say "oops, I'll do better next time", and then proceed to actually do better. An incompetent leader however likely know they're incompetent, and they're less likely to meaningfully judge feedback. They're more likely to look for social validation, and more importantly secure their position. Any negative feedback threatens that position, and when that feedback comes from below, the solution is obvious: slap the peasant down, perhaps even fire them. Often there's little you can do around those people. For instance, I once applied for a contracting gig that would involve cryptographic work. I was rejected because I was "more competent than the project lead". My guess is the hiring manager there knew that if they brought in someone more competent than the project lead, things would go bad. Quite the indictment of the project lead if you ask me. My best project lead on the other hand had no problem being a worse programmer than the people under him (the tech lead for sure, and I probably). He worked on the parts he could, trusted us to do our thing, and I trusted him with telling me the priorities. Best gig of my entire career.

foldr 2y ago
>A competent leader will not be offended or feel threatened by a piece of feedback Replace 'competent' with 'perfect'. Most people are very easily offended or threatened by negative feedback. One can argue that they shouldn't be, ideally, but I don't think you can really say that anyone who's not maximally receptive to negative feedback is incompetent.

deleted 2y ago

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sgt 2y ago

Jesus, most of this is just tip toeing around feedback, turning 3 words into 30. Just be direct but say it in a friendly, yet humble way.

virtualritz 2y ago

Sounds culturally biased. From working in northern Europe and especially with people from Scandinavian countries, I'd say that for each of those examples the 'wrong' choice would be the more likely to be exchanged and taken at face value. Whereas when I work with people from the US a lot of fluff is always needed or offense may be taken. Just as the article purports. And there is also body language. Here is one of my favorite exchanges I once witnessed, between two senior leaders, one Spanish, one Finnish, after a few beers at a company party. I leave it to the inclined reader to guess who is from which country. Sergio (gesticulating, grinning): Lauri, why don't you use your hands more when you're talking? Lauri (hands flat on the table, straight face): Because it's not efficient.

draw_down 2y ago
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zug_zug 2y ago

The interesting thing in my mind is how dysfunctional I've found reporting chains' behavior (to the company). I've found the same thing others here have found -- certain cultural backgrounds or a large preponderance of H1Bs create a culture where upward feedback is silenced. And in the end usually the company loses out - directors forge ahead with ill-informed projects (rewrite entire system X), don't measure/cherry-pick/game-metrics, and create a major threat to anybody on the team who surfaces any contraindicating metrics (e.g. "Our pipeline still takes Y hours and nobody is happy about it, including us").

zuppy 2y ago

i was in that position of receiving a negative feedback over certain things from one of the people i manage (and i believe any manager has been at least once). surprise, i’m not perfect :-) the best way to tell it is to be direct, with examples. i want to know that, i want to improve myself. i only expect perfect honesty. it’s good for both parties. i’m a no bs guy. tell me things straight, good and bad, i will do the same always in a fair honest way. i expect nothing else and there are no repercussions for that. in the end, if you are unhappy and you do nothing about it, nothing will change.

xyst 2y ago

I used to be able to tell my bosses to “fuck off” (usually ones I got well with) when asked something absolutely absurd; or just tell the plain truth. Now in this hypercapitalistic world, you have to fluff your feedback so you don’t hurt their fragile egos.

la64710 2y ago

And then from her other article : Give enough context to avoid back-and-forth follow ups. Don’t be coy when you can be direct. Don’t speak in stream of consciousness. Assume your manager is task switching or checking your Slack message between meetings—make it super easy for them to catch up on context and dive into what you want to discuss.

interludead 2y ago

The "even more" technique is brilliant because it bypasses the natural defensiveness that feedback can trigger, especially in hierarchical settings. Framing suggestions as amplifications of existing strengths is genius.

everyone 2y ago

If I'm gonna be fired for being honest and trying to do a good job, then I'm quitting.

pmarreck 2y ago

This is not the first conversation on HN about management and feedback I've seen where the wide range of opinion and disagreement may reflect only 4 possible things: 1) There is some ideal way to interact that exists, but is not yet known, so we're all essentially still just fumbling in the dark and occasionally encountering light from an as-yet-unknown source 2) There is some ideal way to interact that is more or less understood by some but not all because it is simply not being communicated well (the rate of incoming employees is greater than the rate of knowledge spread- incidentally, this is the same problem I suspect exists with functional languages being perennially less-popular) 3) There is some ideal way to interact that is understood and known but is incompatible with existing and persistent (stable dysfunctional equilibrium) dysfunctionalities in orgs 4) There is in fact no ideal way to interact in a hierarchy because it is largely dependent on the individual personalities of the participants as well as the setup of the org

cyanydeez 2y ago
Mmm. There's also the 4th option is probably better expanded to, individual perception of communication are encoded and decided using fundamentally incompatible protocols because of entirely differing status, background, wealth and social structure. I don't think personality real encapsulates it. I don't believe Elon musks personality has changed, but his fundamental GIGO has.

iancmceachern 2y ago

Just don't. It will never work out in your benefit. Just dont.

callc 2y ago

I’m sick of dealing with managers and bad leaders, and want to get back to coding and building cool stuff. Is there any solution for this? Co-op? Contract work? Consultancy? Union? Flat org structure? Self employment? Start a company with a couple of engineer friends and have flat org, based on trust? I’m guessing only the last two options are promising. I’d appreciate hearing everyone’s stories, as I am genuinely interested.

maxnevermind 2y ago
I hope that in the future maybe AI will be to organize people better in larger organizations so people are more focused on doing productive work instead of endlessly aligning on things and the hoard of people doing alignment in large organizations can find a better use of their time.

kunley 2y ago

Once I got fired because commented when boss smoked weed at work and liked to be intoxicated at workplace by other means as well. Who can beat that

rapjr9 2y ago

People have ego's. Instead of saying they are wrong, adopt their perspective and help them discover your perspective. They may like your perspective and adopt it as their own reasoned opinion, lead them to it, and then they may adopt it and own it. Sometimes you'll find they have unstated reasons for choices, find workarounds for them. This is a basic human skill everyone should understand.

ElevenLathe 2y ago

These seem like decent tricks but make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. IME you can't change anyone's mind about anything, and trying will usually piss them off. If you don't like your boss, go shopping for a new one instead of trying to reform the one you have.